Cuts : Scotland : fight the UK government's proposed cuts and the cuts to Scotland

[rob murray]

Seemingly, Nicola Sturgeon has urged all parties in the Scottish Parliament to come together to fight the UK government's recently proposed cuts and the cuts to Scottish budget. 2 things questionable here

1 The austerity cuts were made by the UK government, governing majority party, so nowt to do with Holyrood, how can Holyrood "fight"...delare UDI ?
2 She will soon have her previously much desired devolved tax powers, and will have to make real decisions a ) Accept the cuts and their effects B ) Raise the money, plug the gap, by upping taxes

Or have I missed something here !!

[BetterTogether]

It's even harder for the First Minister and Mr Swinney to complain about a cut of £170 million when they had an underspend of £440 million, then had the mendacity to say the fiscal restraints are Westminsters fault.

Also it's quite noticeable how the First Minsters demands for FFA have gone very quiet when faced with the reality of a £7.6 Billion black hole that would have to be funded by Scottish Tax Payers.

There seems to be a quantum deficit of reality between the promises made by the SNP and their ability to fund those promises. I think the time is coming when the SNPs ability to scream grievance is drawing to a close, what was it George Osbourne said " time to put up or shut up "

[Redsnapper]

Or just borrow money like Westminster has being doing for years and possibly spend it more wisely than they have.

[golach]

Or just borrow money like Westminster has being doing for years and possibly spend it more wisely than they have.Why not get Eck to hand back the monies he took the last time he left Westminster, and the wages from Hollywood he is still pocketing, our money, we pay his two wages

[sids]

Why not get Eck to hand back the monies he took the last time he left Westminster, and the wages from Hollywood he is still pocketing, our money, we pay his two wages

But then, someone must have voted him into Westminster.

What's he doing in Hollywood? Are they remaking "Plan Nine from Outer Space?"

[squidge]

Seemingly, Nicola Sturgeon has urged all parties in the Scottish Parliament to come together to fight the UK government's recently proposed cuts and the cuts to Scottish budget. 2 things questionable here 1 The austerity cuts were made by the UK government, governing majority party, so nowt to do with Holyrood, how can Holyrood "fight"...delare UDI ? 2 She will soon have her previously much desired devolved tax powers, and will have to make real decisions a ) Accept the cuts and their effects B ) Raise the money, plug the gap, by upping taxes Or have I missed something here !!

Yes Rob you have missed something. You forgot to mention that the Scottish Electorate,voted against austerity just a few weeks ago. that means that our parliament should be doing eveything it can to protect our public services and stand against austerity measures.

We have a Scottish Parliament and so in this "family of nations" we should expect that parliament to be a voice for Scotland so Nicola Sturgeon is asking her colleagues in Holyrood to do exactly that. Be the voice for Scotland. So many times we see people say the SNP don't speak for me, well here she is asking all these other parties who between them all DO speak for Scotland to act in the best interest of Scotland. and yet you still aren't happy.

1. How are austerity cuts "nowt to do with Holyrood? They affect absolutely Holyrood and the devolved powers that the Scottish Government has. Holyrood can fight by standing together as we have already discussed, using its voice to push for less spending cuts and by working with the opposition in Westminster to encourage voting against austerity measures for the whole of the UK.

You seem to suggest that they should just say oh well nothing to do with us and ignore it. That might work for Westminster Labour Party who seem to be happy to abstain on just about anything to do with austerity but surely it's not good enough for a country which has rejected so absolutely the austerity measures. Ian Murray MP also called for people to fight austerity.

UDI is not, has not and will not ever be an option.

2.We shall see what powers we actually get. The Scotland Bill is flawed and does not go far enough I understand although I have not read it. The powers to increase tax that we have just now are pretty much useless and designed to be so. I am awaiting the next step in devolved powers eagerly.

Once again you seem to be saying that w should just roll over and take whatever the Tories throw at us without objection. Seems to be a theme. We have to fight these cuts. Whether we are an MP, an MSP, a councillor, a voter we need to raise our voices because there are other ways to run a country apart from these ideologically driven harsh cuts which will affect the ordinary people in our towns and cities.

There is an Anti Austerity March in Inverness on the 28th - are you coming?

[BetterTogether]

So effectively what you're recommending Squidge is the nation as a whole tightens its belt meanwhile Scotland can just carry on spending money on the country's credit card and totally ignore the wee problem of national debt and just leave it for the next generations to sort out.

At least the Conservative party have accepted there is a problem with excessive debt and are tackling it although it may not be popular to some it is the more responsible line to take.
I'm not quite sure how you reconcile complaining about massive national debt at one time then propose to just ignore it at another.
You've also totally ignored the small issue of a £440 million underspend when the cuts proposed are only £170 million.

Seems the Scottish Govt can hold back more than they are complaining about but it's just overlooked by those wishing to inform us how fiscally responsible the Scottish Government is.

On a simple look at it you'd think that underspending £440 million would mean that those in Holyrood have imposed unnecessary austerity on public services in Scotland with no need to look down to Westminster.

There seems to be some awfully muddled thinking coming out of our duly elected representatives at the moment keep a tidy some back, complain about a lesser sum being deducted then blame it all on someone else because the Scottish NHS, education, road schemes are all suffering.

Almost sounds as good as Fifas accounts.

[Alrock]

...just leave it for the next generations to sort out...

What is a "Generation" anyway?

People are being born & dying all the time, it's not like you have one generation, nobody else is born, they die & a new generation comes along to replace it.

But going along with this very loose concept of generational differences, it looks to me that the previous generation messed up but are not prepared to pay for it, making the current generation suffer, using the next generation as an excuse to keep all the wealth they aquired to themselves.

The current generation are just as deserving as the next generation, are they not?

[sids]

UDI is not, has not and will not ever be an option.


UDI means unilateral declaration of independence. Unilateral means one-sided.

So, some form of government of Scotland leaves the UK without asking permission, or agreeing terms.

Don't know what you thought UDI meant, but it's always an option, anywhere.

[Alrock]

UDI means unilateral declaration of independence. Unilateral means one-sided.

So, some form of government of Scotland leaves the UK without asking permission, or agreeing terms.

Don't know what you thought UDI meant, but it's always an option, anywhere.

Well, by that definition, nuking Westminster is a option, besides, might as well do something with Trident before it gets decommisioned, otherwise it would have just been a waste of money if it never gets used.

[sids]

Well, by that definition, nuking Westminster is a option, besides, might as well do something with Trident before it gets decommisioned, otherwise it would have just been a waste of money if it never gets used.

They'd have to do it themselves. They've got the keys and the pin number.

[squidge]

So effectively what you're recommending Squidge is the nation as a whole tightens its belt meanwhile Scotland can just carry on spending money on the country's credit card and totally ignore the wee problem of national debt and just leave it for the next generations to sort out.





...................................by working with the opposition in Westminster to encourage voting against austerity measures for the whole of the UK.




sigh..............................

[BetterTogether]

sigh..............................

Sigh .
The rest of the country voted in a conservative majority government, that's what the public have democratically voted in .

Even if the SNP manage to get all the opposition to vote with them they don't have sufficient power to effect the changes you suggest, unless some conservatives vote with them. Call if wishful, fanciful, delusional thinking it's not really based on reality.

So let's just ignore the realities just carry on spending is what the Scottish government are really suggesting .

In any sane world that's called fiscally irresponsible.

Maybe virtually bankrupting the country is how you make life easier for the poor and those whose lives are challenged by situations beyond their control.

But in the real world less debt means, less interest paid on loans and more money available to fund society. Maybe the Scottish Governments thinks it wise to just keep spending and spending with no regard, the reality is the more money you borrow the less money you have to help those disadvantaged.

Maybe a crippled economy with rising unemployment is the way forward you can label that progressive if you like.

But I'm pretty sure most people would prefer less unemployment, higher wages, less tax and a public sector that isn't bloated and wasting money but giving good services and value for money.

[Kenn]

The biggest problem The SNP has that despite changing the colour of Scotland it just does not have the numbers in Parliament or the populace within the country to make any real change.
With the best will in the world, Ms Sturgeon's constant cries of "They must listen," is a false hope, they can govern without having to .
It so frustrating but it's fact.

[Rheghead]

The biggest problem The SNP has that despite changing the colour of Scotland it just does not have the numbers in Parliament or the populace within the country to make any real change.
With the best will in the world, Ms Sturgeon's constant cries of "They must listen," is a false hope, they can govern without having to .
It so frustrating but it's fact.

It was the unionist camp that kept saying to us that Scotland is a valued and integral part of the UK, now it seems we are an irritation worthy of being ignored.

[theone]

The biggest problem The SNP has that despite changing the colour of Scotland it just does not have the numbers in Parliament or the populace within the country to make any real change.
With the best will in the world, Ms Sturgeon's constant cries of "They must listen," is a false hope, they can govern without having to .
It so frustrating but it's fact.

Orkney and Shetland didn't vote SNP.

They voted for a Lib Dem MP and MSP.

Now they have little or no voice in both Edinburgh and London.

Small fish in big ponds. That's democracy.

Anybody who voted SNP for Westminster thinking a party only standing for 50 odd seats could somehow make the whole parliament listen to their demands was deluded.

[rob murray]

did you watch the charity comedy programme on channel 4 last night ? Sean Lock told a beauty....apparently the voice of scotland will dominate parliament....all 56 of them...ahem guys grow up you need 326 to make the big noise as it is, you'll huddle in corners muttering dirty tory b's because thats all you can do....and he is unfortunately right.

There is an Anti Austerity March in Inverness on the 28th - are you coming?[/QUOTE] No, as it wont make one jot of a difference, I will just make my usual contributions to the front line.

Where do you stand on FFA ? The SNP has gone very quiet on this strategic issue ??

[rob murray]

The biggest problem The SNP has that despite changing the colour of Scotland it just does not have the numbers in Parliament or the populace within the country to make any real change.
With the best will in the world, Ms Sturgeon's constant cries of "They must listen," is a false hope, they can govern without having to .
It so frustrating but it's fact.

Unfortunatly your spot on, Sturgeon has got to deal with problems on her door step and off her parties own making

[rob murray]

Squidge : We have a Scottish Parliament and so in this "family of nations" we should expect that parliament to be a voice for Scotland so Nicola Sturgeon is asking her colleagues in Holyrood to do exactly that. Be the voice for Scotland. So many times we see people say the SNP don't speak for me, well here she is asking all these other parties who between them all DO speak for Scotland to act in the best interest of Scotland. and yet you still aren't happy.


Not sure what to say about above, this "family of nations = the UK ") is governed by a Conservative majority government who openly campaigned on carrying on austerity cuts, now unfortunatly they govern, so what good is Nicola Sturgeons plea for colleagues to combine together..be the voice of Scotland...not eveyrone shares her views in Scotland over cuts.

[BetterTogether]

Alas the First Minister is over in the US of A talking to the IMF and various other organisations who she has no mandate or powers to have discussions with and appearing on a satirical comedy show.

In the meantime John Swinney was sitting on politics today complaining how the UK government has a decision in what final taxation the Scottish Government actually implement and calling it a veto but steadfastly refusing to say what they are going to do with all the new powers and palpably blanching when asked about FFA.

Funny how they've campaigned so hard for these new powers but won't tell the electorate how they intend to dispense them. More interestingly he also refused to say anything about what tax raising measures he'd use to cover the £177 million cut implemented by Westminster or why he won't get rid of the bedroom tax although he has the powers to do so.

Seems the same old, same old lots of whingeing and whining about minor details but no detail in what they intend to actually do.....

Reality is coming home for the SNP and the buck passing will soon grind to a halt.

Much ado is made of the Labour and Libdems being wiped out in the general election but the SNP seem to fail to grasp a harsh reality that they've not actually proven anything yet and could easily end up on the scrap heap just as quickly.

[rob murray]

Alas the First Minister is over in the US of A talking to the IMF and various other organisations who she has no mandate or powers to have discussions with and appearing on a satirical comedy show.

In the meantime John Swinney was sitting on politics today complaining how the UK government has a decision in what final taxation the Scottish Government actually implement and calling it a veto but steadfastly refusing to say what they are going to do with all the new powers and palpably blanching when asked about FFA.

Funny how they've campaigned so hard for these new powers but won't tell the electorate how they intend to dispense them. More interestingly he also refused to say anything about what tax raising measures he'd use to cover the £177 million cut implemented by Westminster or why he won't get rid of the bedroom tax although he has the powers to do so.

Seems the same old, same old lots of whingeing and whining about minor details but no detail in what they intend to actually do.....

Reality is coming home for the SNP and the buck passing will soon grind to a halt.

Much ado is made of the Labour and Libdems being wiped out in the general election but the SNP seem to fail to grasp a harsh reality that they've not actually proven anything yet and could easily end up on the scrap heap just as quickly.

A clear example of buck passing waffling ......Margaret Burgess, the Minister for Housing and Welfare, SNP MSP : “Using the new powers coming to Scotland, the Scottish Government will abolish the bedroom tax as soon as possible"......( April 2015 ) when... Mrs Burgess ?, and does this not contradict Swinney ? is this not part of austerity cuts ? I disagree with you, certainly its all whinging / whining but its not over minor issues, their " a big boy done it and ran away / crying wolf" has to stop, lets see action not rhetoric, use the powers they have right now, reshuffle the available money, make informed prioritised choices....stop indulging the rich with council tax freezes / non means tested freebies, save money here and re allocate to where its needed....a but...thats making choices isnt it....... and deeply unpopular ones at that. My call is they will play up the legitimate card ( especially after JUlys early budget ) ie We never voted for austerity cuts ( they did actually support them but remember it was the pace that they were to be introduced was to be slower than Tories ) it wisnae us / we'll no dae that to youse when wur a free...... the so called party of anti austerity can make changes now...so the question is why not ? The answer is they will become like all the rest and lose popularity / votes in next years Holyrood election.

[BetterTogether]

Rob I agree with you for the most part, it will be interesting to see if they do abolish the bedroom tax and introduce the 50p higher rate tax.
The main problem is they have bitten into a poisoned apple to some extent, as soon as they accept responsibility for the areas under their control eyes will become focussed on how well they are actually doing. Gone will be the blame game, buck passing rhetoric instead they will have to face up to what they will do to sort out the already existing problems. Falling literacy after 8yrs under their governance, Scottish NHS struggling to name but two.
I still can't see how they justify not raising council tax or allowing free prescriptions for all, these two measures alone put strain on an already creaking system, the only logical rational is they are both popular vote winning measures which buy them votes.
Meanwhile why is the First Minister doing a quick visit to the USA when her job is to be at the helm running Scotland not improving her image on the world stage, she has no reason to visit the IMF that's a job for minister for the UK govt. Her recent trip discussing the EU referendum again is not her job much as she might like it to be.
Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of a devolved government not president of an Independent Scotland.
Yet she is still running around the world stage stoking the independence fire despite the electorate of Scotland giving her a resolute No, how is she working for all the people of Scotland when she is still chasing a dream and threatening another referendum when it feels right.

[piratelassie]

I see the No voters are burying their heads in the sand and trying unsuccessfully to ignore the inevitable which is only a matter of time, Scottish Independence. Admittedly it will take time but it is coming so embrace it and join in. Stop being so negative and look forward not sideways.

[sids]

I see the No voters are burying their heads in the sand and trying unsuccessfully to ignore the inevitable which is only a matter of time, Scottish Independence.

It would take more than time. It would take a majority of Yes votes.

Or do you not work like that?

[squidge]

The first minister is doing a quick visit to The U.S. To launch a fund raising appeal for the restoration of Glasgow school of art. America is likely to be an important contributor to the fund raising. Do you not think that's her job either? That's an important role for our first minister. The restoration of one of the finest historical buildings in Glasgow is important and I'm sure there would be criticism from people if she didn't do that.

[golach]

The first minister is doing a quick visit to The U.S. To launch a fund raising appeal for the restoration of Glasgow school of art. America is likely to be an important contributor to the fund raising. Do you not think that's her job either? That's an important role for our first minister. The restoration of one of the finest historical buildings in Glasgow is important and I'm sure there would be criticism from people if she didn't do that.
The former first minister also went to the USA to promote Scotland at the Ryder Cup, his expenses were over £500K hope this first minister is cheaper, although I very much doubt it.

[BetterTogether]

The first minister is doing a quick visit to The U.S. To launch a fund raising appeal for the restoration of Glasgow school of art. America is likely to be an important contributor to the fund raising. Do you not think that's her job either? That's an important role for our first minister. The restoration of one of the finest historical buildings in Glasgow is important and I'm sure there would be criticism from people if she didn't do that.Interesting that you fail to mention her visit to the IMF and speech at the World Bank as also being part of her visit,organisations she has no real reason to visit as they are both under the remit of UK Govt.

[rob murray]

I see the No voters are burying their heads in the sand and trying unsuccessfully to ignore the inevitable which is only a matter of time, Scottish Independence. Admittedly it will take time but it is coming so embrace it and join in. Stop being so negative and look forward not sideways.

Totally agree my head, is so full of sand...Im so negative.........I look sideways........ yep....youve found me out !

[rob murray]

post withdrawn why bother not my worry !

[rob murray]

post withdrawn, why should I bother

[rob murray]

[QUOTE=rob murray;1120918] Post withdrawn..why bother

[gleeber]

The former first minister also went to the USA to promote Scotland at the Ryder Cup, his expenses were over £500K hope this first minister is cheaper, although I very much doubt it.
Your part of a growing gang of armchair unionists who have no respect for anyone who has a different opinion to you. Just a disrespectful bunch of misfits who feel threatened by a wee lassie and a podgie middle aged man. [disgust]

post withdrawn, why should I bother
Aye it's a bummer when no one will listen to you Rob and especially when you have all the answers to your own questions. Let them get on with it indeed. Hopefully they will manage.:roll:



Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of a devolved government not president of an Independent Scotland.
Yet she is still running around the world stage stoking the independence fire despite the electorate of Scotland giving her a resolute No, how is she working for all the people of Scotland when she is still chasing a dream and threatening another referendum when it feels right.
Could that be just like you running around the internet stoking the unionist fire? The difference is Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of Scotland and her running around will be at the invitation of other world leaders because she is a well respected politician whereas no one is inviting you to do anything. You continue to impose your unionism on the org and fair play to you. It's keeping it alive.;)

[Shaggy]

You continue to impose your unionism on the org and fair play to you. It's keeping it alive.;)

Seems nowadays both are dying a slow death. As for wee Nic, if Greece don't get their act together she'll no need tae worry about the EU anymore..........."Iceberg dead ahead Captain!!!!"

[BetterTogether]

Your part of a growing gang of armchair unionists who have no respect for anyone who has a different opinion to you. Just a disrespectful bunch of misfits who feel threatened by a wee lassie and a podgie middle aged man. [disgust] Aye it's a bummer when no one will listen to you Rob and especially when you have all the answers to your own questions. Let them get on with it indeed. Hopefully they will manage.:roll:Could that be just like you running around the internet stoking the unionist fire? The difference is Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of Scotland and her running around will be at the invitation of other world leaders because she is a well respected politician whereas no one is inviting you to do anything. You continue to impose your unionism on the org and fair play to you. It's keeping it alive.;)Unless I'm greatly mistaken the unionist did win a majority at the referendum 55% which means that the constant references to reasons for another referendum from the First Minister, SNP MSPs and SNP members are imposing their failed views of independence on the majority of people. The SNP won the general election fair enough but that as we where told is nothing to do with independence so why are those who dislike the First Ministers and various other members of her party referring to reasons for another referendum viewed in the wrong. Quite simply it's because the loosing side has not accepted it lost and is still trying to impose its views on the majority of the people of Scotland.

Learn to loose with some dignity and grace.

[rogermellie]

Quite simply it's because the loosing side has not accepted it lost and is still trying to impose its views on the majority of the people of Scotland.

Learn to loose with some dignity and grace.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/59209534.jpg

[piratelassie]

Ask yourself why over 50% of Scots voted SNP. It tell's me that we expect more than will be got from the status quo


Unless I'm greatly mistaken the unionist did win a majority at the referendum 55% which means that the constant references to reasons for another referendum from the First Minister, SNP MSPs and SNP members are imposing their failed views of independence on the majority of people. The SNP won the general election fair enough but that as we where told is nothing to do with independence so why are those who dislike the First Ministers and various other members of her party referring to reasons for another referendum viewed in the wrong. Quite simply it's because the loosing side has not accepted it lost and is still trying to impose its views on the majority of the people of Scotland.

Learn to loose with some dignity and grace.

[golach]

Ask yourself why over 50% of Scots voted SNP. It tell's me that we expect more than will be got from the status quo1454,436 voted SNP, total number of Scots is 5.295 million, how is that 50% ? Not by my maths

[weezer 316]

It is more than 50% in SNP Freedom maths, which is commonly used amongst their supporters

Its like how the 8.1% structural deficit Scotland has, likely slightly higher now, makes Scotland less likely implement public sector cuts as its so rich, yet the 4.3% one the UK does means its a sinking ship that's out to punish the poor.

SP freedom maths makes ANY sum fall in you favour no matter what the numbers are.

[piratelassie]

There they go again


It is more than 50% in SNP Freedom maths, which is commonly used amongst their supporters

Its like how the 8.1% structural deficit Scotland has, likely slightly higher now, makes Scotland less likely implement public sector cuts as its so rich, yet the 4.3% one the UK does means its a sinking ship that's out to punish the poor.

SP freedom maths makes ANY sum fall in you favour no matter what the numbers are.

[squidge]

If you believe that Scotland is a country in its own right - whether or not you believe inIndependence - then you have to accept that the political leader of that Country has a duty to promote Scotland's industry and interests wherever she is invited to do so. A fundamental part of her role is exactly that.

Regardless of those who mutter about maths the FACT is that the SNP won 50% of the vote. That means that 50% of those who turned out to vote voted SNP. Goalachs 5 odd million includes all the children, all those not registered to vote and those who chose not to vote. The turnout was over 70% and all hose people knew ABSOLUTELY that the SNP continue to support an independent Scotland. They ALL understood absolutely that the SNP would continue to talk about Independence and they heard Nicola Sturgeon speak about the conditions in which another referendum would be possible. None of this was a secret, none was a surprise. No one was conned.

The comments about losing with dignity, or moving on should take a leaf out of their own book. They seem to think that because the SNP is outnumbered they should sit quietly on their hands and do as they are told. Are you kidding me? Their job as MPs is to stand up for their constituents and to challenge the government every step of the way. Maybe we have got used to the Labour Party's form of opposition where we see them vote with the government or abstain but we don't see any real difference between the two but you know, the job of Opposition parties is to challenge, question and argue the case for their own policies. Whether they win or not. Seems like that is what they are doing.

For all of us older people - politics has and continues to change. Who knows where that will lead us. I hope to an Independent Scotland eventually, but until that happens I hope it leads us to better opposition in Westminster, stronger voices than we have heard in previous years and greater political engagement.

[golach]

Regardless of those who mutter about maths the FACT is that the SNP won 50% of the vote. That means that 50% of those who turned out to vote voted SNP. Goalachs 5 odd million includes all the children, .

The number of Scots eligble to vote was 4.2 million at the election, not the 5 plus million I stated earlier., the sums still dont add up.

[rob murray]

If you believe that Scotland is a country in its own right - whether or not you believe inIndependence - then you have to accept that the political leader of that Country has a duty to promote Scotland's industry and interests wherever she is invited to do so. A fundamental part of her role is exactly that.

Regardless of those who mutter about maths the FACT is that the SNP won 50% of the vote. That means that 50% of those who turned out to vote voted SNP. Goalachs 5 odd million includes all the children, all those not registered to vote and those who chose not to vote. The turnout was over 70% and all hose people knew ABSOLUTELY that the SNP continue to support an independent Scotland. They ALL understood absolutely that the SNP would continue to talk about Independence and they heard Nicola Sturgeon speak about the conditions in which another referendum would be possible. None of this was a secret, none was a surprise. No one was conned.

The comments about losing with dignity, or moving on should take a leaf out of their own book. They seem to think that because the SNP is outnumbered they should sit quietly on their hands and do as they are told. Are you kidding me? Their job as MPs is to stand up for their constituents and to challenge the government every step of the way. Maybe we have got used to the Labour Party's form of opposition where we see them vote with the government or abstain but we don't see any real difference between the two but you know, the job of Opposition parties is to challenge, question and argue the case for their own policies. Whether they win or not. Seems like that is what they are doing.

For all of us older people - politics has and continues to change. Who knows where that will lead us. I hope to an Independent Scotland eventually, but until that happens I hope it leads us to better opposition in Westminster, stronger voices than we have heard in previous years and greater political engagement.

Squidge having problems with PM account, will PM you

[rob murray]

Aye it's a bummer when no one will listen to you Rob and especially when you have all the answers to your own questions. Let them get on with it indeed. Hopefully they will manage.:roll:

Nah cant argue against ...my heads in the sand...Im looking sideway...I dont have the answers to my own questions either, far from it, and have learned a lot from more informed posters on here. Ive concluded why bother, let them crack at it, theres nothing I can do to change anything...fatalistic I know but there you go.

[BetterTogether]

Your part of a growing gang of armchair unionists who have no respect for anyone who has a different opinion to you. Just a disrespectful bunch of misfits who feel threatened by a wee lassie and a podgie middle aged man. [disgust]So if we disagree and voice our democratic right we are disrespectful misfits Could that be just like you running around the internet stoking the unionist fire? The difference is Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of Scotland and her running around will be at the invitation of other world leaders because she is a well respected politician whereas no one is inviting you to do anything. You continue to impose your unionism on the org and fair play to you. It's keeping it alive.;)

Are we supposed to just allow the nationalist to have their say and keep quiet, I wasn't aware the org was for use by nationalist only and for nationalist views only.

Although I do wonder how you manage to label everyone who disagrees with you disrespectful misfits or armchair unionists.

I'm wondering who is lacking in respect for the others views!



If you believe that Scotland is a country in its own right - whether or not you believe inIndependence - then you have to accept that the political leader of that Country has a duty to promote Scotland's industry and interests wherever she is invited to do so. A fundamental part of her role is exactly that. Regardless of those who mutter about maths the FACT is that the SNP won 50% of the vote. That means that 50% of those who turned out to vote voted SNP. Goalachs 5 odd million includes all the children, all those not registered to vote and those who chose not to vote. The turnout was over 70% and all hose people knew ABSOLUTELY that the SNP continue to support an independent Scotland. They ALL understood absolutely that the SNP would continue to talk about Independence and they heard Nicola Sturgeon speak about the conditions in which another referendum would be possible. None of this was a secret, none was a surprise. No one was conned. The comments about losing with dignity, or moving on should take a leaf out of their own book. They seem to think that because the SNP is outnumbered they should sit quietly on their hands and do as they are told. Are you kidding me? Their job as MPs is to stand up for their constituents and to challenge the government every step of the way. Maybe we have got used to the Labour Party's form of opposition where we see them vote with the government or abstain but we don't see any real difference between the two but you know, the job of Opposition parties is to challenge, question and argue the case for their own policies. Whether they win or not. Seems like that is what they are doing. For all of us older people - politics has and continues to change. Who knows where that will lead us. I hope to an Independent Scotland eventually, but until that happens I hope it leads us to better opposition in Westminster, stronger voices than we have heard in previous years and greater political engagement.

Nice post Squidge but unfortunately it seems we the current majority aren't supposed to voice our democratic opinion but should just sit back and be good boys and girls and do as we are told.
Apparently we are just disrespectful misfits and armchair unionists. It all feels very much similar to the Irish referendum where it just happened again and again until ultimately the electorate just became worn out by the whole sorry charade.

We where told the referendum was a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity. The majority of those within the criteria for voting did so and the result was a vote for remaining part of the Union. The turnout for the general election was not as high as that for the referendum the numbers who didn't vote SNP still outweigh those who did.
We the electorate where informed the general election was not about independence but no sooner are the results in, that we say the First Minister once again raising the spectre of another Referendum when she feels something has changed.

You can stamp your feet wail and moan about how unfair it is that you haven't gained independence, but the immutable fact is whilst you may well have 56 MPs in Westminster you still do not have the Majority of public support that is required to win a referendum on Independence.

We the electorate are waiting to see how the SNP implement the new powers they are to get, how well they manage the economy, the education, the health of this great nation before handing them further power. Why should any party expect support and more power before they have proven to the people of Scotland that they can deliver all that has been mentioned.

We may well be "disrespectful misfit armchair unionist" but each and everyone one of our disrespectful misfit votes and opinions are just as worthy when it comes to the ballot box as anyone else's. Until such time as the SNP are able to secure a majority of over 50% of the eligible voting public then this country will remain part of the Union regardless of how many MPs you have in Westminster and despite being told to be quiet and not air our views.

[rob murray]

Are we supposed to just allow the nationalist to have their say and keep quiet, I wasn't aware the org was for use by nationalist only and for nationalist views only.

Although I do wonder how you manage to label everyone who disagrees with you disrespectful misfits or armchair unionists.

I'm wondering who is lacking in respect for the others views!




Nice post Squidge but unfortunately it seems we the current majority aren't supposed to voice our democratic opinion but should just sit back and be good boys and girls and do as we are told.
Apparently we are just disrespectful misfits and armchair unionists. It all feels very much similar to the Irish referendum where it just happened again and again until ultimately the electorate just became worn out by the whole sorry charade.

We where told the referendum was a once in a generation, once in a lifetime opportunity. The majority of those within the criteria for voting did so and the result was a vote for remaining part of the Union. The turnout for the general election was not as high as that for the referendum the numbers who didn't vote SNP still outweigh those who did.
We the electorate where informed the general election was not about independence but no sooner are the results in, that we say the First Minister once again raising the spectre of another Referendum when she feels something has changed.

You can stamp your feet wail and moan about how unfair it is that you haven't gained independence, but the immutable fact is whilst you may well have 56 MPs in Westminster you still do not have the Majority of public support that is required to win a referendum on Independence.

We the electorate are waiting to see how the SNP implement the new powers they are to get, how well they manage the economy, the education, the health of this great nation before handing them further power. Why should any party expect support and more power before they have proven to the people of Scotland that they can deliver all that has been mentioned.

We may well be "disrespectful misfit armchair unionist" but each and everyone one of our disrespectful misfit votes and opinions are just as worthy when it comes to the ballot box as anyone else's. Until such time as the SNP are able to secure a majority of over 50% of the eligible voting public then this country will remain part of the Union regardless of how many MPs you have in Westminster and despite being told to be quiet and not air our views.

But youve got your head in the sand, your looking sideways, your negative, you have all the answers to your own questions.....I really admire your tenancity, me Im worn out dealing with "patriotic zealots, its like trying to get Moonies and Scientlogists to appreciate there are other views than theirs, and some more sensible. I d like to say to them......This is not Kansas Dorothy, and you know the earth is really round, its not flat !! This is not the place for any reasoned debate, more a platform for the continued yes campaign. It would not matter a jot if the Head of the IMF came on here and spelled out the realities of the economic situation facing Scotland as a go alone nation, nor a straight statement from the EU on the lenghty process an independant Scotland will face to gain EU membership, if we break away from UK, nor a personal statement from leading Oil producers on the continued havoc predicted / how we will never be at 2013 employment heights again, nor a statement from leading wave / tidal companies on how their future is very bleak unless real radical approaches / massive state funding is made available.......nah.....theyre all blind, heads in sand, negative and have all the answers to their own questions..havent they ?

[BetterTogether]

But youve got your head in the sand, your looking sideways, your negative, you have all the answers to your own questions.....I really admire your tenancity, me Im worn out dealing with "patriotic zealots, its like trying to get Moonies and Scientlogists to appreciate there are other views than theirs, and some more sensible. I d like to say to them......This is not Kansas Dorothy, and you know the earth is really round, its not flat !! This is not the place for any reasoned debate, more a platform for the continued yes campaign. It would not matter a jot if the Head of the IMF came on here and spelled out the realities of the economic situation facing Scotland as a go alone nation, nor a straight statement from the EU on the lenghty process an independant Scotland will face to gain EU membership, if we break away from UK, nor a personal statement from leading Oil producers on the continued havoc predicted / how we will never be at 2013 employment heights again, nor a statement from leading wave / tidal companies on how their future is very bleak unless real radical approaches / massive state funding is made available.......nah.....theyre all blind, heads in sand, negative and have all the answers to their own questions..havent they ?

Yes I must be all of those things and probably a few more no doubt.
Funny how many people from completely ideologically different perspectives can disagree with what is being espoused by followers from the Nationalists.
Meanwhile a quick trawl through the various sites on the Internet can see the same arguments with almost verbatim same dialogue as if by some miracle they have all read the same articles and are quoting them back, barely an original or dissenting comment amongst them.
Unless you count the virulent cybernats a breed all to themselves, if you're not familiar with the bile they spew out I'd recommend taking a look at the late Charles Kennedys Twitter feed.
It's sad to see even on the org there are those who seem to think that any political discussion that is of another view than theirs abhorrent, it does make me wonder what the state of this country will be if it carries on and makes me fear for democracy.

[BetterTogether]

I do wonder if today's announcement by George Osbourne regarding making it a legal requirement to keep budgets in the black will apply to Holyrood. If nothing else that would throw a huge spanner in the works for them.

[rob murray]

Yes I must be all of those things and probably a few more no doubt.
Funny how many people from completely ideologically different perspectives can disagree with what is being espoused by followers from the Nationalists.
Meanwhile a quick trawl through the various sites on the Internet can see the same arguments with almost verbatim same dialogue as if by some miracle they have all read the same articles and are quoting them back, barely an original or dissenting comment amongst them.
Unless you count the virulent cybernats a breed all to themselves, if you're not familiar with the bile they spew out I'd recommend taking a look at the late Charles Kennedys Twitter feed.
It's sad to see even on the org there are those who seem to think that any political discussion that is of another view than theirs abhorrent, it does make me wonder what the state of this country will be if it carries on and makes me fear for democracy.

Yep we are poles apart politically yet some how pose similar questions and arguements ? We must be mad / off our trolleys to dare question the accpeted wisdom....dont you get it the world is flat !

[rob murray]

FFA / Independent Scotland : To fund public services and government expenditure requires money, everyone agrees with that . So where does the money come from ? Usually a balance of borrowing, economic growth / taxation. High growth = higher tax take = more revenue, and less need to borrow or borrow with certainty that it can paid back. If the economy can't be made to grow at predicted high growth rates, if oil revenues don't bounce back, and if there are no other ways found of boosting tax revenues, ( a but thats all negatives eh of course we will achieve high growth rates, and oil will bounce back and run for ever ! ) then the continuing gap between revenue and spending in Scotland would require either tax increases or spending cuts - or it would mean more borrowing, though that is bound to have consequences for taxation and spending in future years. ( taxes rise to fund borrowing )

Actually the biggest problem in Scotland is demography. Too few people available to work ! According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in 2012 there were 3.2 working-age people for every Scottish pensioner. By 2037 there will be just 2.6, so ageing, migration and the birth rate will all affect the available working population. The trends observed suggest that, over the next 50 years, the Scottish workforce will shrink (the rest of Britain’s will grow). The number of pensioners will of course also rise and they will need looked after, pensions, care etc supported by a shrinking work force, worst case scenario in a high tax / low growth situation, best case scenario, everything funded through the high growth achieved by a diminishing work force....now that doesnt add up does it ?

[rob murray]

Yes I must be all of those things and probably a few more no doubt.
Funny how many people from completely ideologically different perspectives can disagree with what is being espoused by followers from the Nationalists.
Meanwhile a quick trawl through the various sites on the Internet can see the same arguments with almost verbatim same dialogue as if by some miracle they have all read the same articles and are quoting them back, barely an original or dissenting comment amongst them.
Unless you count the virulent cybernats a breed all to themselves, if you're not familiar with the bile they spew out I'd recommend taking a look at the late Charles Kennedys Twitter feed.
It's sad to see even on the org there are those who seem to think that any political discussion that is of another view than theirs abhorrent, it does make me wonder what the state of this country will be if it carries on and makes me fear for democracy.

Ive checked out what you said about Charles Kennedy, and I have to say straight out, that the people responsible for those atrocities should be ashamed, but I doubt if any of them know the meaning of the word shame...I am seriously very, very appalled, and yes the gutter swipes came from SNP folk, although of course the party cannot be held to account for the actions of nutters....can they ??? Or is this the new reality in our flat earth ....anything goes ?? Apparently some nutters thought Charles speach on leaving / being voted out...ie Night of the SKean Dhu's refered to Hitlers night of the long knives...when of course what he meant was comparing the results on the night to that as associatted with Harold Mcmillans cabinent purge in th early 60's ie night of the long knives....so they are so thick they couldnt even get that "political" reference.....no the remark had to be mis interpreted and gave them the excuse for bile bile bile !!! I blame a failing education system myself of course...hey but what do I know

This is not a question its a statement

[BetterTogether]

Ive checked out what you said about Charles Kennedy, and I have to say straight out, that the people responsible for those atrocities should be ashamed, but I doubt if any of them know the meaning of the word shame...I am seriously very, very appalled, and yes the gutter swipes came from SNP folk, although of course the party cannot be held to account for the actions of nutters....can they ??? Or is this the new reality in our flat earth ....anything goes ?? Apparently some nutters thought Charles speach on leaving / being voted out...ie Night of the SKean Dhu's refered to Hitlers night of the long knives...when of course what he meant was comparing the results on the night to that as associatted with Harold Mcmillans cabinent purge in th early 60's ie night of the long knives....so they are so thick they couldnt even get that "political" reference.....no the remark had to be mis interpreted and gave them the excuse for bile bile bile !!! I blame a failing education system myself of course...hey but what do I knowIt's very sad, made even worse by the fact his refuse bins where emptied outside his property, it's fair to say Charles has sufficient misery in his private life with the loss of his father and caring for his mother without the extra burden of loosing his seat and dealing with his addiction. Whilst we are on the subject let us not forget Ian Blackford the SNP representative for Skye and Lochaber who started the " where's Charlie " hashtag, many anonymous twitterati may be forgiven for not knowing the full facts but this cohort of the SNP and now voted into a position of power must of been more than fully aware of the situation facing Charles Kennedy which makes his actions all the more despicable.

[BetterTogether]

FFA / Independent Scotland : To fund public services and government expenditure requires money, everyone agrees with that . So where does the money come from ? Usually a balance of borrowing, economic growth / taxation. High growth = higher tax take = more revenue, and less need to borrow or borrow with certainty that it can paid back. If the economy can't be made to grow at predicted high growth rates, if oil revenues don't bounce back, and if there are no other ways found of boosting tax revenues, ( a but thats all negatives eh of course we will achieve high growth rates, and oil will bounce back and run for ever ! ) then the continuing gap between revenue and spending in Scotland would require either tax increases or spending cuts - or it would mean more borrowing, though that is bound to have consequences for taxation and spending in future years. ( taxes rise to fund borrowing ) Actually the biggest problem in Scotland is demography. Too few people available to work ! According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in 2012 there were 3.2 working-age people for every Scottish pensioner. By 2037 there will be just 2.6, so ageing, migration and the birth rate will all affect the available working population. The trends observed suggest that, over the next 50 years, the Scottish workforce will shrink (the rest of Britain’s will grow). The number of pensioners will of course also rise and they will need looked after, pensions, care etc supported by a shrinking work force, worst case scenario in a high tax / low growth situation, best case scenario, everything funded through the high growth achieved by a diminishing work force....now that doesnt add up does it ? Here's an article from the Herald Scotland that makes for interesting reading regarding the SNP and its position on FFA. Does make you wonder if they actually have a cohesive policy or it's just make it up as we go along, they seem to contradict themselves quite readily when it suits them.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/scottish-politics/snp-has-let-cat-out-of-bag-after-mp-rejected-quick-full-fiscal-autonomy-s.128343860

You might also find a piece by the Daily Express interesting that states that the desire in Scotland to leave the EU is greater in Scotland than London or other parts of the U.K

http://www.express.co.uk/scotland/581147/Europe-referendum-SNP-Scotland-UK-EU-European-Union

[rob murray]

Here's an article from the Herald Scotland that makes for interesting reading regarding the SNP and its position on FFA. Does make you wonder if they actually have a cohesive policy or it's just make it up as we go along, they seem to contradict themselves quite readily when it suits them.http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/scottish-politics/snp-has-let-cat-out-of-bag-after-mp-rejected-quick-full-fiscal-autonomy-s.128343860

Nah its all bluffing mabe aye maybe no....Kenny Dalglish politics : read below very real and amusing :

The debate in Scotland is pervasive, dominating both the media and many personal relationships, as even a cursory visit there will make clear. But it has a fairytale quality to it, with the pro-independence camp, like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland, inviting the electorate to believe at least six impossible things before breakfast.
A persistent theme is that Scotland is so important that everyone else will simply fall in with its demands. The main political parties in the UK may insist that the Bank of England will not underwrite the Scottish banking system after independence. But this is mere bluff, Scotland is too valuable to the rest of the UK. The European Commission may say, not once but several times, that Scotland would cease to be a member of the EU and would have to re-apply to join. But they are wrong! Europe could not afford to be without Scotland. Spain and Belgium say they would veto any such application, but they simply do not know their own minds. Scotland, with its vast population of 5 million, will exercise its influence.

The fundamental problem facing an independent Scotland would be the familiar one of a small, social democrat government in a globalised system. Its freedom to act independently, to have high public spending and at the same time keep interest rates low, is very constrained. It is very tempting to wish them “oan yir merry way!” and let them find out. But that would be unfair to the many thoughtful Scots who continue to see the benefits of the Union. ( Thanks pal for acknowledging that anti independance sits with thoughtful Scots !!!!! )

Source : Paul Ormerod economist at Volterra Partners LLP, a Visiting Professor at the UCL Centre for Decision Making Uncertainty, and author of Why Most Things Fail: Evolution, Extinction and Economics

[rob murray]

It's very sad, made even worse by the fact his refuse bins where emptied outside his property, it's fair to say Charles has sufficient misery in his private life with the loss of his father and caring for his mother without the extra burden of loosing his seat and dealing with his addiction. Whilst we are on the subject let us not forget Ian Blackford the SNP representative for Skye and Lochaber who started the " where's Charlie " hashtag, many anonymous twitterati may be forgiven for not knowing the full facts but this cohort of the SNP and now voted into a position of power must of been more than fully aware of the situation facing Charles Kennedy which makes his actions all the more despicable.

Apparently the SNP have announced some sorta enquiry into this sitiuation, so that shows that the party right to the top know about it, acknowleding and confirming the issue, in my view theyve been shamed into admitting that this went on, however they also annouce that they themselves have been cyberwhacked........but Charles Kennedy was also physically confronted on Fort WIlliam high street, leaflets thrown in his face, nutters shouting abuse, bins emptied, real personal attacks not cyberwhacking, if it was me Id make sure I would have hired " personal security" so my democtratic right to be heard was protected. And that may well be what we will see in future, this is a democracy not a bully state. I mean lets face it the political winds have changed, some may say Scotland has become highly politicised with more and more people contributing to political debate and that can only be for the good...but you seriously have to balance this with " contributions" from the nut case cyber brigade. Call of the dogs cos I predict, someone at some stage is going to be hurt ( physically )

This is not a question but a factual statement

[rogermellie]

without the extra burden of loosing his seat and dealing with his addiction.

https://i.imgflip.com/h2odu.jpg

[rob murray]

It's very sad, made even worse by the fact his refuse bins where emptied outside his property, it's fair to say Charles has sufficient misery in his private life with the loss of his father and caring for his mother without the extra burden of loosing his seat and dealing with his addiction. Whilst we are on the subject let us not forget Ian Blackford the SNP representative for Skye and Lochaber who started the " where's Charlie " hashtag, many anonymous twitterati may be forgiven for not knowing the full facts but this cohort of the SNP and now voted into a position of power must of been more than fully aware of the situation facing Charles Kennedy which makes his actions all the more despicable.

Yep in 2003 the SNP voted against the Iraq war in Holyrood...but Charlie spoke out against it in the real power house...and he was vilified by the press !! You would have thought that this act alone would and should have accorded him due respect but no, a bunch of cowardly tartan brain dead thugs went for his throat !

This is not a question its a statement

[rob murray]

Charles Kennedy Iraq War speech 2003 : The words of a principled man : The nats who attacked him should read this and go and beg for redemption

Taking a principled and consistent stance over Iraq (http://www.theguardian.com/world/iraq) has attracted much criticism from our detractors and opponents. But they couldn’t ignore us. And the voters didn’t either. We should not prejudge the outcome of Lord Hutton’s inquiry. It’s already exposed a great, great deal – despite its tight remit.
We argued from the outset for a far broader independent inquiry. One into the entire basis upon which this country was led into that war. And events are increasingly proving us correct.The current speculation over the interim report of the Iraq Survey Group raises still more profound questions.
Two things however are clear. The full legal advice of the attorney general at the time must now be published in full. And the case for that full-scale independent inquiry becomes stronger by the day. And – incidentally – do you share with me a certain distaste at the sight now of the Conservative leadership criticising the consequences of a war for which they were the principal cheerleaders?


This is a leadership of charlatans and chancers. At the time, they asked none of the key questions. That was left to us. Whatever the eventual judgment, the political implications of Hutton are already clear. A devastating indictment of Labour in power; and of our political system itself.
Consider these words from 1997: ‘We are not the masters. The people are the masters. We are the people’s servants. Forget that and the people will soon show that what the electorate give, the electorate can take away.’ That’s what Tony Blair told his new MPs in his first speech to them after his first election victory. Good instincts. Great ideals. Today tarnished for good.
No more glad, confident morning for this shop-soiled Labour government. They seek to manage, not lead; to manipulate, not tell it as it is. I don’t actually subscribe to the view that all power corrupts. But absolute power – when secured on the back of massive parliamentary majorities, which don’t reflect the balance of political opinion in the country – can corrupt absolutely. ( 2015 SNP ? )
The soul goes out of politics. So the system itself simply has to change. I tell you this. If the British House of Commons had known then what it knows now – about the events leading up to that fateful parliamentary debate and vote on committing our forces into war in Iraq – then the outcome could and should have been fundamentally different.
But, of course, parliament did not know these things. Because the government’s instinct is to shroud itself in secrecy. To act like the office of a president instead of as a collective cabinet government held to account by the elected House of Commons. This is supposed to be a parliamentary democracy. What we’ve seen is a small clique driving us into a war, disregarding widespread public doubts. That is not acceptable.

[BetterTogether]

https://i.imgflip.com/h2odu.jpgIf such minor mistakes irk you so dreadfully I'd respectfully suggest you've already lost it. Keep smiling eh !

[BetterTogether]

Charles Kennedy Iraq War speech 2003 : The words of a principled man : The nats who attacked him should read this and go and beg for redemption Taking a principled and consistent stance over Iraq (http://www.theguardian.com/world/iraq) has attracted much criticism from our detractors and opponents. But they couldn’t ignore us. And the voters didn’t either. We should not prejudge the outcome of Lord Hutton’s inquiry. It’s already exposed a great, great deal – despite its tight remit.We argued from the outset for a far broader independent inquiry. One into the entire basis upon which this country was led into that war. And events are increasingly proving us correct.The current speculation over the interim report of the Iraq Survey Group raises still more profound questions.Two things however are clear. The full legal advice of the attorney general at the time must now be published in full. And the case for that full-scale independent inquiry becomes stronger by the day. And – incidentally – do you share with me a certain distaste at the sight now of the Conservative leadership criticising the consequences of a war for which they were the principal cheerleaders? This is a leadership of charlatans and chancers. At the time, they asked none of the key questions. That was left to us. Whatever the eventual judgment, the political implications of Hutton are already clear. A devastating indictment of Labour in power; and of our political system itself.Consider these words from 1997: ‘We are not the masters. The people are the masters. We are the people’s servants. Forget that and the people will soon show that what the electorate give, the electorate can take away.’ That’s what Tony Blair told his new MPs in his first speech to them after his first election victory. Good instincts. Great ideals. Today tarnished for good.No more glad, confident morning for this shop-soiled Labour government. They seek to manage, not lead; to manipulate, not tell it as it is. I don’t actually subscribe to the view that all power corrupts. But absolute power – when secured on the back of massive parliamentary majorities, which don’t reflect the balance of political opinion in the country – can corrupt absolutely. ( 2015 SNP ? ) The soul goes out of politics. So the system itself simply has to change. I tell you this. If the British House of Commons had known then what it knows now – about the events leading up to that fateful parliamentary debate and vote on committing our forces into war in Iraq – then the outcome could and should have been fundamentally different.But, of course, parliament did not know these things. Because the government’s instinct is to shroud itself in secrecy. To act like the office of a president instead of as a collective cabinet government held to account by the elected House of Commons. This is supposed to be a parliamentary democracy. What we’ve seen is a small clique driving us into a war, disregarding widespread public doubts. That is not acceptable.

Once again in substance I must agree with virtually every point so eloquently made.

I doubt the enquiry will ever fully give us the answers required one due to the maxwellisation which just lets those accused rewrite the parts which either they disagree with or incriminate them, secondly I think the UK govt has a shudder go down its spine when it considers a former PM being put in The Hague on war crimes allegations.
My personal opinion would be that if no dossier on WOMD ever existed then he must be indicted along with those of senior enough position to have been implicated.
It would go a long way to restoring some of the populations faith in politics, send out a clear signal globally that we are a country of integrity.
Finally it would serve to remind all politicians they are not above the law.


When it comes to the current situation in Holyrood I'm afraid I don't believe that having one party with so much power is a good thing.
As it is the SNP won the general election but that is more down to the collapse of the opposition parties after the referendum, any party that was associated with the NO campaign alienated themselves with every voter who ticked the YES box, and so the GE2105 was just a continuation of the struggle in their eyes.
I've no doubt when the realities of SNP policies start to bite home their support base will dwindle, we have recent historical similarities with the Lib Dems from 66 seats to a virtual wipeout.
Meanwhile democracy in Holyrood is suppressed replaced by totalitarian power.

One such frightening example would be the implementing of a state appointed named person for every child, with two of the criteria being hopes and spirituality.

Now isn't that frightening for any sane person.

[rogermellie]

If such minor mistakes irk you so dreadfully I'd respectfully suggest you've already lost it. Keep smiling eh !

and by lost, you mean loosed ... right ? oh it's so confusing, no wonder you keep spelling it wrong :lol:

[BetterTogether]

and by lost, you mean loosed ... right ? oh it's so confusing, no wonder you keep spelling it wrong :lol:I can concede I have spelt it incorrectly but I lay some of the blame at the door of my former English teacher a Scottish Nationalist with a somewhat limited affinity to the language but a great affinity for the bottle. But there is one word I have no problem spelling correctly.....Troll... I bid you good day and hope you find a warm bridge to reside under, hopefully with a fearful amount of midges !

[piratelassie]

.Better Together all you say is Scotland is too small, too stupid, too etc etc, to look after ourselves, but you never say why we'er bettet together. The tories are going to rip the guts out of us because we don't support them. Tell me in a year's time we'er better togerher.

[BetterTogether]

.Better Together all you say is Scotland is too small, too stupid, too etc etc, to look after ourselves, but you never say why we'er bettet together. The tories are going to rip the guts out of us because we don't support them. Tell me in a year's time we'er better togerher.

I'd like to see you quote where I've said any of those things, but I guess you can't beat an outright lie when trying to smear opposing views.

The reigns of Scotland are in the SNPs hands not Westminsters try placing the blame where it belongs instead of blaming everyone else for their ineptitude.
If they are short of money they have the ability to raise taxes or take any number of actions to run Scotland properly.

You voted for the SNP not I so cut the complaining and just deal with the realities of what you've voted for !

[rob murray]

.Better Together all you say is Scotland is too small, too stupid, too etc etc, to look after ourselves, but you never say why we'er bettet together. The tories are going to rip the guts out of us because we don't support them. Tell me in a year's time we'er better togerher.

Your right when you say the tories will rip the guts out of some people ( not all of the population ) austerity cuts have already started and more to come in Julys budget, its not because of the fact that we dont support them, they are dealing with the UK as a whole and Scotland is still in the UK. We are not a stupid nation...far from it...but we are small that can be a good or bad thing depending ing on how you see it. In fairness the tories never hid from more intended austerity / cuts / welfare reforms / cuts, they said it loudly all through the election and practised what they preached as regards welfare cuts. The majority of Scots dont support this, but we are stuck with it, so its time to see how the SNP parliamentarians measure up / can change things in westminster and SNP Holyrood....lets see what they do to mitigate cuts with the powers they have now and also the extensive revenue powers they will have next year. So yes, in 2016 we will know if we are better together or not but the shout in Scotland is firmly with the SNP they have the power, lets see them use it and see what differences they can make. If they deliver on their rhetoric of anti austerity cuts, then I say, good job.... well done.

[BetterTogether]

Your right when you say the tories will rip the guts out of some people ( not all of the population ) austerity cuts have already started and more to come in Julys budget, its not because of the fact that we dont support them, they are dealing with the UK as a whole and Scotland is still in the UK. We are not a stupid nation...far from it...but we are small that can be a good or bad thing depending ing on how you see it. In fairness the tories never hid from more intended austerity / cuts / welfare reforms / cuts, they said it loudly all through the election and practised what they preached as regards welfare cuts. The majority of Scots dont support this, but we are stuck with it, so its time to see how the SNP parliamentarians measure up / can change things in westminster and SNP Holyrood....lets see what they do to mitigate cuts with the powers they have now and also the extensive revenue powers they will have next year. So yes, in 2016 we will know if we are better together or not but the shout in Scotland is firmly with the SNP they have the power, lets see them use it and see what differences they can make. If they deliver on their rhetoric of anti austerity cuts, then I say, good job.... well done.

I very much suspect we will get more rhetoric about how they don't have enough powers, how anything which can be blamed on Westminster is blamed on them, meanwhile you'll see more falling literacy more problems with the NHS, some wishy washy excuse why they can't abolish the bedroom tax although they'd like to, no raises in council tax regardless of how large or expensive your property is, a continuation of free prescriptions regardless of how well off they are.

More rhetoric about free higher education but more restrictions on the number of allocated spaces available.

Meanwhile they will do everything in their powers not to raise taxes even though they have the powers to do so and the cry about austerity while the wealthy continue to get wealthy.

In effect they will have all the powers they require to change things but if they use them then they have to be accountable and that just wouldn't do now would it.
Meanwhile in Westminster they will scream and holler how about unfair the system is and fail to actually make any real difference to anything, very much as any 5 yr old with a reasonable grasp of rationality would be able to tell you 56 V 330 the smaller group will lose.

[squidge]

And the conversation comes full circle. As we have so few MPs we should just shut up be quiet and not bother trying to get our voice heard.....

[BetterTogether]

And the conversation comes full circle. As we have so few MPs we should just shut up be quiet and not bother trying to get our voice heard.....

So you want your voice heard, fair enough.

You wanted a referendum....your voice was heard...you lost.

You wanted more powers..Smith Commision .....soon to be implemented.

You had a General Election....your voice was heard....56 out of 59 seats.

Now I could make much ado about those 56 seats being about a third of the electorate but will be gracious and let it slide this time.

You've got most of the seats, you've got new powers.

When you voted SNP you where fully aware even if you wiped the board you'd only have a maximum of 59 seats at Westminster.

Now how is it's no ones listening.

By choice you voted for a party that could only ever be a minority in Westminster no one forced you, no one held your hand when you marked X in your box, you where fully aware what the implications of that vote might mean. In fact was it not the first Minster telling us how there'd be this that and the other with the Labour Party and how the SNP intended to Lock the conservatives out of power.

Well seems that's not the case you gambled with your vote, you lost fair and square.
Now it's time for we the electorate to see what the SNP intend to do with all the new powers they are about to get.

We can ignore the manifesto pledge on FFA as we all now realise the SNP aren't going to inflict that draconian country breaking measure on us.

But we the electorate do deserve to know what we are going to get from the party that's running the country.
Elsewhere in the UK it's becoming pretty clear which direction things are going, policies are being announced and driven forward.
Up here in Scotland we hear deathly silence on policy substance and the direction the countries going to go.

We the electorate expect more from the duly elected MSPs.

It's time for them to earn their pay.

[gleeber]

So you want your voice heard, fair enough.

You wanted a referendum....your voice was heard...you lost.

You wanted more powers..Smith Commision .....soon to be implemented.

You had a General Election....your voice was heard....56 out of 59 seats.

Now I could make much ado about those 56 seats being about a third of the electorate but will be gracious and let it slide this time.

You've got most of the seats, you've got new powers.

When you voted SNP you where fully aware even if you wiped the board you'd only have a maximum of 59 seats at Westminster.

Now how is it's no ones listening.

By choice you voted for a party that could only ever be a minority in Westminster no one forced you, no one held your hand when you marked X in your box, you where fully aware what the implications of that vote might mean. In fact was it not the first Minster telling us how there'd be this that and the other with the Labour Party and how the SNP intended to Lock the conservatives out of power.

Well seems that's not the case you gambled with your vote, you lost fair and square.
Now it's time for we the electorate to see what the SNP intend to do with all the new powers they are about to get.

We can ignore the manifesto pledge on FFA as we all now realise the SNP aren't going to inflict that draconian country breaking measure on us.

But we the electorate do deserve to know what we are going to get from the party that's running the country.
Elsewhere in the UK it's becoming pretty clear which direction things are going, policies are being announced and driven forward.
Up here in Scotland we hear deathly silence on policy substance and the direction the countries going to go.

We the electorate expect more from the duly elected MSPs.

It's time for them to earn their pay.

I don't know what to make of that. Its beyond me. :confused

[BetterTogether]

I don't know what to make of that. Its beyond me. :confused

I'm not sure why it's quite simple if voted SNP it's time to ask what your MSPs are actually going to do aside from doing an awful lot of complaining.
They've got the votes in Scotland soon they will have the powers so instead of apportioning blame elsewhere how about they act like responsible politicians and run the country.
To quote the chancellor George Osbourne " it's time to put up or shut up " if the rest of the U.Ks economy is improving with unemployment falling why is Scotland the odd one out !
If literacy rates are improving across the rest of the country why are Scotland's falling.
If wages are increasing then why is Scotland different. Scottish NHS can be funded it just needs Holyrood to spend the money available.
Let's see those who voted SNP start asking those they voted into power why they aren't doing the job they where elected to do.

This has just appeared in my inbox courtesy of another respected org member, it's worth a read

http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/49753_OBR-Fiscal-Report-Web-Accessible.pdf

[squidge]

I don't know what to make of that. Its beyond me. :confused


I typed a long reply to BTs post but you know what? There is no point. BT thinks we got 56 seats and lost, I think we got 56 seats and won a stronger voice, the opportunity to promote a different point of view. they think we should just shut up and stop trying, I think we should shout louder and stronger; they think nothing is happening in Scotland I think its the most exciting political time that i have ever seen; they think the tory policies on austerity are to be commended and celebrated, I think they are cruel heartless abominations; they think there are no alternatives, I think there are.

That is all i have to say really.

Anyone wants to talk policy then Ill happily join in a new thread but im outta this one.

[golach]

I don't know what to make of that. Its beyond me. :confusedI understood it very well Gleeber

[gleeber]

The SNP did well In the Commons this week. It was good stuff. The next few years are going to be interesting. I agree the SNP will need to put up or shut up. I think they'll do well and the Scottish people will keep voting for them. The SNP are here to stay in Scotland. Get used to it.

[golach]

The SNP did well In the Commons this week. It was good stuff. The next few years are going to be interesting. I agree the SNP will need to put up or shut up. I think they'll do well and the Scottish people will keep voting for them. The SNP are here to stay in Scotland. Get used to it.What did they do? Exactly except make fools of us Scots and their own party?

[BetterTogether]

They made fools of themselves by keeping on asking for more and more money which the country can't afford.

Only today on BBC Scotland we head the OBR Oil forecast not £37 Billion but £2 billion that must make a difference to Scotlands financial future.

Then we have Tommy Shepperd SNP MSP stating that they want FFA but not just yet as it would be a disaster.
Something the SNP have campaigned for but oh no they want to hang on to the Barnet Formula because they can't make the sums add up.

Kezia Dugdale Labour stating their spending plans are based on $200 a barrel a price unheard of and unrealistic.

How embarrassing they are becoming and so quickly.

What has Mr Swinney actually put forward so far as proposals for the new powers ...nothing..absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile the First Minister is taken to the White House for a discussion with the National Security Chaps no doubt quite worried about the SNPs views on defence and trying to find out if she actually knows what she's talking about.

Seems some of the more vociferous SNP posters havent got much to say or now unable to defend the abysmal failure of their chosen party.... With the SNP even when they win you lose..that should be their motto.

[piratelassie]

BT are you satisfied with an annual hand out instead of earning your own money because I'm bloody sure I'm not. Nor should anybody be.


They made fools of themselves by keeping on asking for more and more money which the country can't afford.

Only today on BBC Scotland we head the OBR Oil forecast not £37 Billion but £2 billion that must make a difference to Scotlands financial future.

Then we have Tommy Shepperd SNP MSP stating that they want FFA but not just yet as it would be a disaster.
Something the SNP have campaigned for but oh no they want to hang on to the Barnet Formula because they can't make the sums add up.

Kezia Dugdale Labour stating their spending plans are based on $200 a barrel a price unheard of and unrealistic.

How embarrassing they are becoming and so quickly.

What has Mr Swinney actually put forward so far as proposals for the new powers ...nothing..absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile the First Minister is taken to the White House for a discussion with the National Security Chaps no doubt quite worried about the SNPs views on defence and trying to find out if she actually knows what she's talking about.

Seems some of the more vociferous SNP posters havent got much to say or now unable to defend the abysmal failure of their chosen party.... With the SNP even when they win you lose..that should be their motto.

[sids]

BT are you satisfied with an annual hand out instead of earning your own money because I'm bloody sure I'm not. Nor should anybody be.

Probably not, but I can't be the only person here who earns my own money!

[rob murray]

FRom BBC New : The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR)estimated that a total of £2.1bn would be raised in the 20 years to 2040-41.
That is about £34.5bn lower than it estimated lastyear, and less than the tax revenue from last year alone.
The OBR said its new forecast reflected in partlower oil and gas prices and a revision down of expected production.
Its FiscalSustainability Report (http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/49753_OBR-Fiscal-Report-Web-Accessible.pdf) stated: "Our latest projection showsthat the effect of lower oil and gas prices and production has been partlyoffset by lower expenditure to leave the implied pre-tax profits from the NorthSea positive, but relatively low.
"The effects of accumulated losses reducing the effective taxrate paid by companies in the North Sea, plus the repayments associated withdecommissioning costs, mean that in our central projection just £2bn ofreceipts will be raised in total between 2020-21 and 2040-41."
It added: "As we always stress, North Sea revenues have been the most volatilereceipts stream and are subject to large forecast errors, even over the shortterm.
"Theseprojections are therefore subject to considerable uncertainty.
"It is quitepossible that the industry's response to conditions that currently prevailcould lead to very different outcomes."

See bold above, so they dont really know apart from stating the obvious, oil prices are volaitile and the north sea is an aging source of Oil. Industries reponses to conditions that currently prevail could lead to very differnt outcomes....current reposes are downsizing, changing employment models ( more staff being used than self employed contractors, supply chain cooperation, effeciency drives, less jobs, but a lower operating cost. Also over the period a lot of North Sea wells will be abandoned, as theyve gone "dry" this will lead to differnt work, ie plug and abandonment of wells, and decommissioning, Oil companies cant just walk away from uneconomic wells they have to deal with the decommissioning. So in balance yes oil prices are volatile, the industry has and is taking actions to achieve effecienciees, revenues will fall ( but not at the stated rates which assume a worst case case scenario, jobs are going and will go, and there is a lot of different work involved in abandonments. One things certain though, the north sea will be a shadow of itself over the next 30 years, oil is not a finitie resource, theres only so much in the North Sea. This should buy time for Scotland to formulate a strategic approach towards wave / tidal developments, following the model succesfully developed in Denmark over the past 20 years which made Denmark a world leader in wind energy, which is currently sadly lacking in Scotland. The ball for tackling this lies with the governing majority in Scotland..the SNP, for the time being.

[BetterTogether]

BT are you satisfied with an annual hand out instead of earning your own money because I'm bloody sure I'm not. Nor should anybody be.I'm not whether to laugh or cry. It's taxpayers money raised by the Government and redistributed. Whether that's UK Govt or Scottish Govt or maybe if the SNP get their own way the Federal State of Europe eventually all the money is handed out one way or the other. That's how it works.

You might also want to answer why if the stated aim of the EU is ever closer political and social union you're so hell bent on independence that's surely contrary to the stated aim of the EU.

[rob murray]

I'm not whether to laugh or cry. It's taxpayers money raised by the Government and redistributed. Whether that's UK Govt or Scottish Govt or maybe if the SNP get their own way the Federal State of Europe eventually all the money is handed out one way or the other. That's how it works.

You might also want to answer why if the stated aim of the EU is ever closer political and social union you're so hell bent on independence that's surely contrary to the stated aim of the EU.

With respect your wasting your time replying to these posts, the facts are we have, whether we like it or not, an SNP Scottish goverment and almost total domaination of SNP Westmister seats, their stated aim is independance and has been since time immemorial, so lets get down to the realities...see my new thread on FFA. MY view is that the sooner we get FFA the better, as then theres no hiding place, and the SNP will make a kirk or mill of it, with no blaming westminster, 100% accountability : if they do well then they will govern for decades as the majority party, if they dont do well, then the ballot box will out them and others will have to rise to the challenege. We will never know the situation until they get full powers, but my issue is that the SNP are stating FFA will give them the powers to strenghen the Scottish economy, fine words, but where the details, whats their economic growth strategy going to comprise of / where do they see welath being created ans sustained....thats what Im looking for. SO lets now focus on the details of post FFA and what the SNP are going to actually do.

I accpept the reality, so should you, and Ive decided theres no point tilting at windmills, so bring on FFA but, heres the challenge for local SNP posters.....whats the game plan, where the growth going to come from ??? No negativity implied, over to you guys ...enlighten me please.

[rob murray]

It's very sad, made even worse by the fact his refuse bins where emptied outside his property, it's fair to say Charles has sufficient misery in his private life with the loss of his father and caring for his mother without the extra burden of loosing his seat and dealing with his addiction. Whilst we are on the subject let us not forget Ian Blackford the SNP representative for Skye and Lochaber who started the " where's Charlie " hashtag, many anonymous twitterati may be forgiven for not knowing the full facts but this cohort of the SNP and now voted into a position of power must of been more than fully aware of the situation facing Charles Kennedy which makes his actions all the more despicable.

From BBC : An SNP official has resigned after making abusive Twitter comments about Charles Kennedy.
Brian Smith, who was convenor of the SNP's Skye and Lochalsh branch, called the former Liberal Democrat leader a "drunken slob" and "quisling-in-chief".
The tweets were sent before Mr Kennedy's death on 1 June, which was caused by a major haemorrhage linked to his long battle with alcoholism.
Mr Kennedy lost his seat to the SNP's Ian Blackford in last month's election.
Mr Smith, who has now deleted his @lobsterferret Twitter account, is reported to have sent more than 130 messages to Mr Kennedy before and immediately after the vote.


In one, he said: "We have a different target here though with the Quisling-in-Chief LibDem St Charles of Kennedy."
'Entirely inappropriate'Soon after Mr Kennedy lost his seat in the Ross, Skye and Lochaber constituency, a tweet from Mr Smith described him as a "drunken slob" and said: "Lies smears and deceit didn't work. Bye Bye."
News of Mr Smith's resignation emerged as Mr Kennedy's funeral was due to take place (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-33092243) near his Highland home.
An SNP spokesman said: "Mr Smith was spoken to and accepts that his comments during the campaign were entirely inappropriate - as a result, he has resigned as convener of the Skye and Lochalsh branch."
He said Mr Smith had never been been employed by Mr Blackford in any capacity and added: "Today is a day to remember Charles Kennedy with respect and dignity."

Good to see the SNP took action over this !!!

[rob murray]

https://i.imgflip.com/h2odu.jpg

And this is the best retort to debate that an SNP supporter can come up with, plenty people are losing their minds over zealous ill informed nationalism...now go to the FFA thread and spell out how the SNP are going to achieve economic prosperity for Scotland...if you cant then I will have to assume your a braveheart with the painted face !

[BetterTogether]

Oops " you're " lol

[piratelassie]

The only thing the Scottish people need to be an ordinary sucessful European country is confidence in ourselves. Nothing in this life is guaranteed but we are not exactly near top of the league as things stand. We only have a population of appox. 6 million and we are increasingly exporting home grown comodities. With a small population there is not a massive demand on public services, but at the moment Scotland needs for example more housing, more health workers etc. which under the Barnett formula we'er not getting. With FFA we would be responsible ourselves.

[rob murray]

The only thing the Scottish people need to be an ordinary sucessful European country is confidence in ourselves. Nothing in this life is guaranteed but we are not exactly near top of the league as things stand. We only have a population of appox. 6 million and we are increasingly exporting home grown comodities. With a small population there is not a massive demand on public services, but at the moment Scotland needs for example more housing, more health workers etc. which under the Barnett formula we'er not getting. With FFA we would be responsible ourselves.

Exactly so bring on FFA and please spell out the economic specifics how do we grow to make the money to build the much needed jpuses

[BetterTogether]

Firstly the population of Scotland is 5.295 Million not nearly 6 million. Being an ordinary successful European country requires adoption of the Euro, closer ties with Europe not pushing countries further away. Most of the products Scotland produces are sold south of the border not in Europe. With ageing population there is an increasing demand on public services. There seems to be some muddled thinking going on with your rationale for FFA over the Barnett Formula. More taxes and a shrinking public sector with FFA more austerity than there is currently. Care to explain how FFA is better for Scotland.

[piratelassie]

If you dont want FFA then an explaination is'nt required.

[tonkatojo]

If you dont want FFA then an explaination is'nt required.


So there :cry:.

[BetterTogether]

If you dont want FFA then an explaination is'nt required.So what you're basically saying is unless we voted SNP and want their polices such as FFA then as the bulk of the electorate we aren't due an explanation. How very democratic.

[piratelassie]

Exactly my point, Scotland needs SNP. They are the only people who have all our interests at heart.

So what you're basically saying is unless we voted SNP and want their polices such as FFA then as the bulk of the electorate we aren't due an explanation. How very democratic.

[BetterTogether]

Exactly my point, Scotland needs SNP. They are the only people who have all our interests at heart.So the fact their total share of the vote fell during the general election by about 150,000 and they represent only about 35% of the total electorate. They represent everyone unless you happen to disagree, then according to you our views are meaningless. That's not very progressive in fact I'd call that a worrying view on democracy. Free and Fair society as long as we agree.

[piratelassie]

BT stop talking Scotland down ALL the time, surely you can say something positive?

[sids]

BT stop talking Scotland down ALL the time,

You should point out examples.

[golach]

BT stop talking Scotland down ALL the time, surely you can say something positive?What are you on about? the SNP lost the referendum 55% to 45%, get over it

[BetterTogether]

BT stop talking Scotland down ALL the time, surely you can say something positive?

I'm more than happy to oblige your polite request.

Scotland is obviously a bastion of common sense and full of level headed right minded people, like many countries it's blighted by a small minority of bigoted xenophobes. Thankfully 55% of Scotland are at least calm rational people of whom I'm more than delighted to call myself one.

[piratelassie]

55% of the Scottish residents voted no, not 55% of Scots. An awful lot of people are not over it.
I'm more than happy to oblige your polite request.

Scotland is obviously a bastion of common sense and full of level headed right minded people, like many countries it's blighted by a small minority of bigoted xenophobes. Thankfully 55% of Scotland are at least calm rational people of whom I'm more than delighted to call myself one.

[BetterTogether]

55% of the Scottish residents voted no, not 55% of Scots. An awful lot of people are not over it.Now what could you possibly be suggesting with that statement.

[BetterTogether]

.Better Together all you say is Scotland is too small, too stupid, too etc etc, to look after ourselves

I can honestly say I've never heard a single person in favour of the Union utter those words. Scotland is part of a vibrant prosperous positive Union of Nations punching well above their weight globally.

Why on earth would you think otherwise.

[rob murray]

55% of the Scottish residents voted no, not 55% of Scots. An awful lot of people are not over it.

Yes a lot of people arent over the 55% no vote...but you have to also factor in scots living in England who couldnt vote in the referendum, thousands of them, c800,000 living in the other parts of the UK . They could contain a substantial % of potential no voters...or yes..we will never know, but point is they didnt get a chance to vote ! Who stopped them....the Scotish government...wonder why ?

[sids]

55% of the Scottish residents voted no, not 55% of Scots. An awful lot of people are not over it.

An "awful lot," but not a democratic majority.

Don't let's be a bad loser.

[piratelassie]

The way things are going I'm glad to be pro Scottish and not pro Brittish.

[sids]

The way things are going I'm glad to be pro Scottish and not pro Brittish.

That's good. I like people who are glad they're something.

[BetterTogether]

The way things are going I'm glad to be pro Scottish and not pro Brittish.Oh dear someone seems to have missed something in her education. You have been since Birth a British Subject I'm pretty sure that's what it says on your passport,and just about every other piece of documentation of any worth. Scotland may be where you were born but alas you're just as much British possibly more so with the mixing of families through the centuries as you claim to be Scottish. Possibly if we go back far enough with some Norman, Viking, Celt all thrown in for good measure. If you're going to be Nationalistic make sure you're fully aware that everyone who lives on this island came from somewhere else before they got here. That's the stupidity of Nationalism go back far enough , you're probably from more places than you'd be comfortable knowing about.

[piratelassie]

BT you don't want to govern yourself I do. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Oh dear someone seems to have missed something in her education. You have been since Birth a British Subject I'm pretty sure that's what it says on your passport,and just about every other piece of documentation of any worth. Scotland may be where you were born but alas you're just as much British possibly more so with the mixing of families through the centuries as you claim to be Scottish. Possibly if we go back far enough with some Norman, Viking, Celt all thrown in for good measure. If you're going to be Nationalistic make sure you're fully aware that everyone who lives on this island came from somewhere else before they got here. That's the stupidity of Nationalism go back far enough , you're probably from more places than you'd be comfortable knowing about.

[theone]

BT you don't want to govern yourself I do.

Define govern "yourself".

Why do you consider someone 300 miles away in Edinburgh worthy of leading you, but somebody 50 miles further foreign?

If you truly want 'home rule', why do you want it based on a 800 year old border? Why an independent Scotland, and not an independent Highlands, or an independent Caithness? Why don't you build a fence around your house, declare independence and live tax free in your own principality forever more - surely that is true home rule?

When the border between Scotland and England was agreed, Caithness, Orkney and Shetland weren't in it! We were part of Norway.

The people who live here are descended from from those that have come from near and far, over hundreds and thousands of years. Labeling and segregating each other an 800 year old line on a map seems a bit illogical to me.

[BetterTogether]

Always saddened when people show their hatred by such negative comments isn't the nationalist mind a sad very small place.
It seems all they are capable of doing is holding grudges,perceiving insult in every sentence and finding any minuscule reason to create division.

Im wondering how Squidge views this as she seems to be a quasi SNP spokesperson. Is the borderline racism/ fascism being expressed acceptable within the SNP framework

[golach]

BT you don't want to govern yourself I do. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Why do we want Holyrood to have more powers? with the powers they already have they cannot run the country, look at the lack of education, lack of Nurses, Police/Fire service cuts they have already implamented, not to mention £444m underspend, and dont get me started on the craziest scheme of all the ‘state guardian’ to our children.

[rob murray]

Oh dear someone seems to have missed something in her education. You have been since Birth a British Subject I'm pretty sure that's what it says on your passport,and just about every other piece of documentation of any worth. Scotland may be where you were born but alas you're just as much British possibly more so with the mixing of families through the centuries as you claim to be Scottish. Possibly if we go back far enough with some Norman, Viking, Celt all thrown in for good measure. If you're going to be Nationalistic make sure you're fully aware that everyone who lives on this island came from somewhere else before they got here. That's the stupidity of Nationalism go back far enough , you're probably from more places than you'd be comfortable knowing about.

Ive got my passport at work so looked it up : its headed : The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, under nationality is clearly printed...British. Now I am a scot born in the UK who voted no ...does that make me any less a scot than some one who voted yes.....thats the crux of the matter, yessers seem to think that they are somehow more "scottish" than scots who voted no...what actually is a scot ? ...in the northern we are from Viking stock before that picts so we are a mongrel pict / viking hybrid, in the Highlands people are descended from Gaels and prior to that picts, West of Scotland a big, big mix.....anyway which county was hell bent on not having Gaelic signs....eh !!!! Nothing more scottish than Gaelic...bit of irony there isnt there ?

[BetterTogether]

I think the way some view it you'd have to be Scots Born and of long heritage plus and independence supporter to be allowed a vote.

[rob murray]

I think the way some view it you'd have to be Scots Born and of long heritage plus and independence supporter to be allowed a vote.

Id agree with latter...........independence supporter to be allowed a vote !!

[piratelassie]

I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be happy being ruled from anywhere other than their own capital city, but there you are it takes all kinds.

[sids]

I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be happy being ruled from anywhere other than their own capital city, but there you are it takes all kinds.

Where you're "ruled from" sort of becomes your own capital city.

Is it so great to be "ruled" from Edinburgh, by Ayrshire people?

[squidge]

Im wondering how Squidge views this as she seems to be a quasi SNP spokesperson.

Oh lol. Here we go again. I thought you had packed in this little game you play. Lol. I am nobody's spokesperson except Squidge's. I know you like to suggest I am some sort of paid something or other, some elected official lurking behind a user name although as we know each other I'm sure you know that's not true. I speak for me, my views, my opinions, my knowledge. If that changes at any time, if I suddenly become elevated to the lofty heights of "Minister of forum communication" - parachuted in and given a peerage cos of my extensive experience of .....erm....you guys, then I'll let you know lol.


Is the borderline racism/ fascism being expressed acceptable within the SNP framework

No. Racism or fascism is not acceptable anywhere and does not form part of what the SNP stands for. It is not racist or fascist to believe in Independence for a country. But it is Funny to see you guys explain that we are all British, and that will never change. During the referendum didn't some of you go on and on about how we would no longer be British and would LOSE our British Passports having them ripped out of pockets and our hearts by the Scottish Governemnt. Good to see that you have realised that couldn't have happened.

[rob murray]

Oh lol. Here we go again. I thought you had packed in this little game you play. Lol. I am nobody's spokesperson except Squidge's. I know you like to suggest I am some sort of paid something or other, some elected official lurking behind a user name although as we know each other I'm sure you know that's not true. I speak for me, my views, my opinions, my knowledge. If that changes at any time, if I suddenly become elevated to the lofty heights of "Minister of forum communication" - parachuted in and given a peerage cos of my extensive experience of .....erm....you guys, then I'll let you know lol.



No. Racism or fascism is not acceptable anywhere and does not form part of what the SNP stands for. It is not racist or fascist to believe in Independence for a country. But it is Funny to see you guys explain that we are all British, and that will never change. During the referendum didn't some of you go on and on about how we would no longer be British and would LOSE our British Passports having them ripped out of pockets and our hearts by the Scottish Governemnt. Good to see that you have realised that couldn't have happened.

I think the word quasi is correct ie Apparently (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/apparently#apparently__2) but not really; seemingly (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/seemingly#seemingly__2): from your posts Squidge you would have to agree that you you can be seemingly deemed and therefore can be deduced potentially,as apparently an SNP spokeswomen....of courseIt is not racist or fascist to believe in Independence for a country nor it is racist nor facscist nor treacherous to hold views contrary to the scottish government and to challenge them...and you will have to admit that in certain section of the "unoffical SNP" through social media etc people who dare to speak out / challenge the scottish government / SNP UK government are called nothing short of traitors. Dont really get your last point on losing passports

[squidge]

I think the word quasi is correct ie Apparently (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/apparently#apparently__2) but not really; seemingly (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/seemingly#seemingly__2): from your posts Squidge you would have to agree that you you can be seemingly deemed and therefore can be deduced potentially,as apparently an SNP spokeswomen...

OK then, let me be more clear about this. I think it is important because Better Together has repeatedly asserted that I am some sort of official voice of the SNP and has gone so far as to suggest, hint that I even have some sort of paid role. I am not. I am a member of the SNP but i hold no elected branch office although I help out with Political Education and Women's issues. When I post on this forum I post as Squidge and I try to expain policy as i see it. Im no more immune to getting things wrong than anyone else and where I have concerns about policies or think things are wrong - like with the currency issue during the referendum then then I will happily share those with you. I AM gobby and opinionated and I cant let things that are not true slide. But i am not a spokesperson for the SNP I am only putting forward my own views and opinions. Hope that clears things up for you. If that changes lol I will let you know.






of course It is not racist or fascist to believe in Independence for a country nor it is racist nor facscist nor treacherous to hold views contrary to the scottish government and to challenge them...and you will have to admit that in certain section of the "unoffical SNP" through social media etc people who dare to speak out / challenge the scottish government / SNP UK government are called nothing short of traitors. Dont really get your last point on losing passports

I dont have to admit it Rob, that suggests that i would try to deny it - i wouldnt. I know from first hand how unpleasant social media can be. You cant be a somewhat fat Engish Woman supporting Independence, blogging about it, being part of WFI and not find yourself on the unpleasant end of the nasty underbelly of twitter and facebook. Traitor was one of the more pleasant descriptions i heard. In fact we even had a whole thread here about what to do with the traitors who voted yes after the referendum but that was ok because it was a "joke".

The worst responses I had usually involved threats of sexual violence or the threat NOT to touch me with a bargepole but to use a plank with a rusty nail or were even more imaginative than that. Several involved threats of trips to my front door and advice to watch my back. They came through facebook, through twitter and even here felt like an unsafe space for a while. Fortunately, I am big enough and strong enough not to be deterred by these vile people although some of the stuff that came out of the computer of people that I liked did hurt my feelings a bit. I lost two friends over the referendum and the only reason for that was that THEY decided i was not a fit person to be friends with because of my political views - i wasnt unpleasant or nsty to them in any way.I lost count of the amount of times I was told that I should go back to live in England to cure myself of my traitorous views, or that as an English person I had no right to be trying to influence Scots over the referendum - honestly you couldnt make it up - we are better together but bog off back where you came from!!!!

Are indy supporting or snp supporting nonentities any better or worse than others? My experience would suggest not. At least the SNP deals with theirs, it takes them very little time to suspend members who carry out this appalling behaviour whilst other parties seem to take months. What i can say is that I have never, ever ever posted anything anywhere which i am ashamed of and I have been online since 2001. Nothing which could be construed as threatening or vile and nothing designed to put fear into people. I wish everyone else was the same but they arent.

Making a comparison between the worst of any group, is not the right thing to do. To suggest that all lib dems are peadophiles because of Cyril Smith, or all Tories are liars because of Jeffrey Archer is as ridiculous as saying that all SNP supporters are racist. None of those things are true.

[rob murray]

OK then, let me be more clear about this. I think it is important because Better Together has repeatedly asserted that I am some sort of official voice of the SNP and has gone so far as to suggest, hint that I even have some sort of paid role. I am not. I am a member of the SNP but i hold no elected branch office although I help out with Political Education and Women's issues. When I post on this forum I post as Squidge and I try to expain policy as i see it. Im no more immune to getting things wrong than anyone else and where I have concerns about policies then I will happily share those with you. I AM gobby and opinionated and I cant let things that are not true slide. But i am not a spokesperson for the SNP I am only putting forward my own views and opinions. Hope that clears things up for you. If that changes, which it might lol, I will let you know.







I dont have to admit it Rob, that suggests that i would try to deny it - i wouldnt. I know from first hand how unpleasant social media can be. You cant be a somewhat fat Engish Woman supporting Independence, blogging about it, being part of WFI and not find yourself on the unpleasant end of the nasty underbelly of twitter and facebook. Traitor was one of the more pleasant descriptions i heard. In fact we even had a whole thread here abot what to do witht he traitors who voted yes after the referendum but that was ok because it was a "joke".

The worst responses I had usually involved threats of sexual violence or the threat NOT to touch me with a bargepole but to use a plank with a rusty nail or were even more imaginative than that. Several involved trips to my front door and advice to watch my back. They came through facebook, through twitter and even here felt like an unsafe space for a while. Fortunately, I am big enough and strong enough not to be deterred by these vile people although some of the stuff that came out of the computer of people that I liked did hurt my feelings a bit. I lost two friends over the referendum and the only reason for that was that THEY decided i was not a fit person to be friends with because of my political views - i wasnt unpleasant or nsty to them in any way.

Are indy supporting or snp supporting nonentities any better or worse than others? My experience would suggest not. At least the SNP deals with theirs, it takes them very little time to suspend members who carry out this appalling behaviour whilst other parties seem to take months. What i can say is that I have never, ever ever posted anything anywhere which i am ashamed of. Nothing which could be construed as threatening or vile and nothing designed to put fear into people. I wish everyone else was the same but they arent.

Making a comparison between the worst of any group, is not the right thing to do. To suggest that all lib dems are peadophiles because of Cyril Smith, or all Tories are liars because of Jeffrey Archer is as ridiculous as saying that all SNP supporters are racist. None of those things are true.

NO offence intended Squidge and I am appalled to hear what you have had to endure, and would agree with your description of your postings on here, yes you argue your corner and thats good, youve hit the crux of the matter...Are indy supporting or snp supporting nonentities any better or worse than others ?

Ps Did you get the renewables stuff ? Had a chance to look at any of it yet ??

[squidge]

NO offence intended Squidge and I am appalled to hear what you have had to endure, and would agree with your description of your postings on here, yes you argue your corner and thats good, youve hit the crux of the matter...Are indy supporting or snp supporting nonentities any better or worse than others ? None taken Rob, but no they are not - they are all the same - ugly unpleasant and disgusting.


Ps Did you get the renewables stuff ? Had a chance to look at any of it yet ?? I did, a quick read but tonight is my night for political homework lol.

[rob murray]

"they are all the same - ugly unpleasant and disgusting".

Yep 100% agreed. Political homework...lol lol lol nah.....have a night on the town instead.....much more fun !!!!

[BetterTogether]

Just for clarification Squidge I use the term quasi SNP spokesperson as I am fully aware that although you are a member of the SNP you do not hold an official position within the party, even though your posts do seem to unerringly toe the official party line I am more than happy to put that down to fervent belief in the policies of the SNP as opposed to an official spokesperson for the party.

I hope that provides sufficient clarification on the issue.

I think we can all agree that racism/ extremist views exist within the ranks of most parties and serve little purpose within today's modern democratic society, less to provide a warning to us all how close these sort of people are at all times and how we should guard against their influence.

[BetterTogether]

It would be interesting to know squidges view on the renewables situation and how they currently add £1.8 billion paid in subsidies to energy bills which of course impacts directly on the poorest in society.

[squidge]

I dont really have a full understanding of renewables Better Together because I only have a limited amount of time and ploughing through stuff IM not that interested in is something i avoid. However as you will see from my conversation with Rob I am trying to understand things a bit more. I do think however that energy gerenation should be nationalised and not privatised and producing profits for Shareholders pockets. It seems a ridiculous situation where a nationalised company ( France's EDF) can operate here in the UK, securing profits for the state - France - but that we dont have our own nationalised energy company doing it here. I would nationalise energy generation from whatever source. It seems to my simple mind that we are paying a bunch of money in subsdies to make profits for shareholders _ i would sooner just pay the money to make profits to go back into the industry.

[rob murray]

It would be interesting to know squidges view on the renewables situation and how they currently add £1.8 billion paid in subsidies to energy bills which of course impacts directly on the poorest in society.

What renewables ? I am interested in wave / tidal power and the reasons for the very slow developments / recent demise of leading players, as we have, or had the chance to be world leaders, a situation that I have my own views on, what "renewables" recieve 1.8 billion....wind or what........ or the "lot" ie money for wave / tidal developments....I would suggest that the bulk of subsidies go to wind farms " ?? Only source I can trace the 1.8 billion is the telegraph running a story on costs of electricity rising in an independant Scotland...............

[BetterTogether]

I think the major issue with nationalisation is the History this country has had in the past. Excessive Union interference, industrial action,poor productivity. To name but a couple of the issues .

[BetterTogether]

What renewables ? I am interested in wave / tidal power and the reasons for the very slow developments / recent demise of leading players, as we have, or had the chance to be world leaders, a situation that I have my own views on, what "renewables" recieve 1.8 billion....wind or what........ or the "lot" ie money for wave / tidal developments....I would suggest that the bulk of subsidies go to wind farms " ?? Only source I can trace the 1.8 billion is the telegraph running a story on costs of electricity rising in an independant Scotland...............It is in relation to wind farms Rob. No doubt there is a plethora of information out there on the subject.

[rob murray]

I think the major issue with nationalisation is the History this country has had in the past. Excessive Union interference, industrial action,poor productivity. To name but a couple of the issues .

Nationalisation should always be considered seriously when markets do not deliver and are proven to be ineffecient, and never, ever on ideological / political grounds .....21st nationalisation would only occur where markets cannot deliver or fail, most banks were effectively "nationalised" werent they...why...because of market failures....markets were destroying themselves, hence the state had to step in, or as Keynes so nobly put it...in the long term we are all dead..... in a nationalisation project we would never endure the troubles of the past, ie union interference, poor productivity etc as unions have little to no power and good effective management working with staff will deliver effeciencies

[weezer 316]

Rob I thinks that's a bit simplistic an in fact leads to more trouble. The market can certainly fail and destroy themselves but so can governments. Its more about effective policy and strategy than if its private or nationalised, in all spheres. To easy to attach labels to something just because its private or nationalised.

[rob murray]

Rob I thinks that's a bit simplistic an in fact leads to more trouble. The market can certainly fail and destroy themselves but so can governments. Its more about effective policy and strategy than if its private or nationalised, in all spheres. To easy to attach labels to something just because its private or nationalised.

WHat is simplistic about " market failure"...markets do fail and spectaculary so...where would dealing with market failures, which affect the countr,y lead to trouble ? Economics determines all policies and strategy, I made the key point that you dont introduce "nationalisation" ( defined as state intervention where markets fail, intervening for the well being of the country ) on political ideological grounds ie previous Labour baggag,e nationalising the commanding heights of the economy, clause 4,rightfully kicked into touch. If thats simplistic then thats short hand for what economists would call Keynsian interventions. So maybe Keynes was simple ?

[BetterTogether]

In principle I have no major objections to utilities calming under the auspices of Government control.

Electricity,Gas, Water but they would need to be run efficiently and cost effectively with a decent amount of investment going in to upgrading and maintains a national infrastructure.

What I wouldn't want to see is grossly overpaid executives awarding themselves huge bonus's just for doing what's expected.
The hard part is making sure the money is reinvested where is does the most good.

I know there is much desire for renewables to replace our ageing oil,coal and gas fired stations but I feel there is also merit in considering New Atomic Power Stations to ensure that the nation as a whole has the power is requires to remain a prosperous country.
We used to be a world leader in that field now sadly we have fallen behind.
There will always be concerns about the use of atomic fuel to produce power, but the world has progressed since the 1960s/70s and I'm sure that modern reactors would be a lot safer than those we currently have.
It's not as though we live in a geologically unstable area of the world so a lot of fears about earthquakes do not apply to this country.

[rob murray]

In principle I have no major objections to utilities calming under the auspices of Government control.

Electricity,Gas, Water but they would need to be run efficiently and cost effectively with a decent amount of investment going in to upgrading and maintains a national infrastructure.

What I wouldn't want to see is grossly overpaid executives awarding themselves huge bonus's just for doing what's expected.
The hard part is making sure the money is reinvested where is does the most good.

I know there is much desire for renewables to replace our ageing oil,coal and gas fired stations but I feel there is also merit in considering New Atomic Power Stations to ensure that the nation as a whole has the power is requires to remain a prosperous country.
We used to be a world leader in that field now sadly we have fallen behind.
There will always be concerns about the use of atomic fuel to produce power, but the world has progressed since the 1960s/70s and I'm sure that modern reactors would be a lot safer than those we currently have.
It's not as though we live in a geologically unstable area of the world so a lot of fears about earthquakes do not apply to this country.

Nuclear power......we have the ideal place for a new reactor which will obviously alleviate the economic melt down we face post Dounreay major run down...comming soonish.....however.........????? Wonder what our new MP's take is on alleviating the Dounreay run down / Caithness post Dounreay ??

[BetterTogether]

Nuclear power......we have the ideal place for a new reactor which will obviously alleviate the economic melt down we face post Dounreay major run down...comming soonish.....however.........????? Wonder what our new MP's take is on alleviating the Dounreay run down / Caithness post Dounreay ??

Apart from the SNPs and Greens stance on Nuclear power being a primary obstacle to building a new power station at Dounreay.
If you consider there is already a Nuclear facility there which has proven to be a good employer over the years to the people of Caithness it would also provide ample reliable power to the Highlands and Orkney probably a lot more of Scotland as well and wouldn't blight the landscape like wind turbines currently do.
No doubt the detractors will voice the usual safety concerns but I can't see they would be much different to those we already have ( I stand to be corrected on that point if needs be ).
Consider also France has invested heavily in Nuclear power and the technology now available has improved over the years no doubt some of those concerns can be laid to one side.
So I see it would provide reliable power, boost the local economy, reverse the exodus of people from the area. Which would also provide a host of other benefits which follow in the wake of any large scale industry.

[weezer 316]

I was for nuclear power, obviously it cuts carbon emissions massively and works when the wind and sun aren't doing their jobs, but in hindsight if we cna generate that level of power, and more besides from renewables, even at cost neutral, then do it simply because its easier to build, easier to maintain and easier to cleanup afterwards, and an accident might involve a few rabbits getting crushed, as opposed to a nuclear accident.

France isnt investing in nuclear power. Infact I am sure Hollande made it a pledge to shut about 20 reactors and built no more new ones, bar ITER which is obviously fusion.

I would like to see, hopefully in the next 25 years an energy mix of renewlables and nuclear fusion.

[BetterTogether]

I had to go read up on ITER as didn't have a clue what it was.

Seems a nice idea if it actually works. How about using thorium reactors I appreciate they are more expensive to construct but don't seem to have as many of the drawbacks of other types.

I agree with Rob that wave power might be worth more investment, Wind Farms don't seem particularly efficient and are a blot on the landscape if nothing else.

[rob murray]

The opportunity exits to become world leaders in wave and tidal power, create a new industry, jobs and wealth, for numerous reasons this is not happening.

[BetterTogether]

The opportunity exits to become world leaders in wave and tidal power, create a new industry, jobs and wealth, for numerous reasons this is not happening.What are the problems stopping this investment happening Rob seems there's plenty of money for wind farms and you can't deny we have plenty of wave power up here.

[BetterTogether]

Seems the Govt has scrapped subsidies for onshore Wind Farms.

[weezer 316]

Fusion works alright and is vastly superior to fission without any of the contamination issues, its just containing it and getting power out of it. Its the process that powers the sun.

I dont know about tidal energy. I couldnt care less about windfarms on the landscape, having clean power is more important than having a nice view.

[rob murray]

What are the problems stopping this investment happening Rob seems there's plenty of money for wind farms and you can't deny we have plenty of wave power up here.

Yes ...the suadi arabia of renewables.............Basically the industry is in start up mode and is heavily capital intensive, initially government money was used as grants to lever in private investment ( usually from groups of companies ) to push developments along but development has been slow and problematic so investors are pulling out hence the demise of key operators. Another key issue holding things back is connectivity charges to the national grid which is acting as a major barrier to entry. There are many other related reasosn why wave / tidal has not got going, but basically what we have here is a market failure, relatively untested technology / devices requiring capital to advance into wider take up and manufacturing which the private sector / private investment, isnt attracted to, hence the slow down.

[BetterTogether]

So basically the industry is swallowing vast amounts of capital without showing any real progress or return on investment. I can see how that could be problematic.

[rob murray]

So basically the industry is swallowing vast amounts of capital without showing any real progress or return on investment. I can see how that could be problematic.

The industry has swallowed grants and private investment, no meaningful progress can be paid without this market failure being addressed...otherwise we will miss the boat....now...what "plans" do the scottish government have to plug the gap........as it stands pass the buck onto UK govt....or formulate a unified development strategy take wave / tidal into public ownership, ( if n ot then the absence of any long term private investment is going to hold up progress....big time..no getting around that one ) provide development finances and then sell off once things are at the manufacturing stage...ie we keep the high value the IPR and develop export markets....