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PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 10:52
David Cameron, a scant few months after begging for a 'NO' vote in the referndum and getting his wis,h now finds the prospect of Scottish MPs, with a large enough voice to be heard, "a frightening prospect."

According to the Guardian Cameron " came close to suggesting the SNP had no right to influence Westminster politics".
( http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/19/labour-snp-coaltion-would-be-calamitous-says-david-cameron )

There we have it, all the lies laid bare.

He wants Labour to completely refute any future deal with the SNP, yet he won't rule out a deal with the Kippers.

Meanwhile he continues to feather his wealthy pals' beds by selling of the stock of affordable houses and selling of the shares in Lloyds bank.

He defends the growth in the use of food banks, saying it was down to the government advertising them more prominently at jobcentres.

The man and his party are an affront to the people of the UK.

Redsnapper
20-Apr-15, 12:13
Panic that his cosy little world might be upset by these' ignorant' Scottish people. I'm just waiting for them to roll out Gordon Brown who suddenly changed from being the worst prime minister that Britain ever had to the saviour of the union.

golach
20-Apr-15, 13:20
The man and his party are an affront to the people of the UK.Why are you worrying about Mr Cameron being an affront to the UK, you wanted out of the UK in September 2014

roshep
20-Apr-15, 13:31
Well said Golach !!!!, have you noticed the " wealthy " have been spoken of again.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 13:54
Why are you worrying about Mr Cameron being an affront to the UK, you wanted out of the UK in September 2014

Absolutely, him and the rest of the Establishment begged us to stay, and on that Spetember day a number of Scots voters decided to believe them.

He got what he wished for and now disnae like it. I am still all for independence; it's him that's changed his tune.

At last Scottish voters exercise an influence on Westminster. So what's the problem. You either want Scots, their opinions and their representatives in the union or not. You can't have it both ways.

And if at some point we decide to leave that's our decision and I'm sure we will do it in a sensible way. Grown up democracy. Let's keep it civilised. And celebrate the passing of Eton Dave and his chums.

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 14:04
Well lets look the first issue UKIP is a national party that covers the whole country where as the SNP covers only Scotland, regardless of how you view either parties politics.
There is also the reality that the SNPs primary role is for Scotland to separate from the rest of the UK, today we have Nicola Sturgeon and unelected politician wanting to do deals with the North of England an area she has no legitimate claim to influence.If the SNP does get the number of seats it is expecting it will not be the party leader at Westminster as she has never successfully been elected as an MP for any area,so we have the prospect of Alex Salmond calling the shots at Westminster.
What has to be taken into consideration is the amount of influence the SNP bring to bear on policies which effect the country as a whole, which may be totally unpalatable to the electorate of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
As for shots at the wealthy it should be remembered that Nicola Sturgeon is now a member of that wealthy group now.
The politics of grievance are unhealthy and do nothing to improve lives.
I personally have no problem with people having the ability to own their own property. Also the bank shares should be sold unless you'd prefer to have nationalised banks as the norm why shouldn't the public have an opportunity to own shares the minimum amount being 500 is well within the grasp of a large swathe of the Public. If you want wealth redistribution then surely members of the general public owning their own houses and some shares is a good thing.

We keep hearing about progressive socialism from people but it seems to me to be very much 1970s socialism nothing new or progressive in it.

squidge
20-Apr-15, 14:19
It seems that people thought that a no vote would mean he whole of Scotland would shut up and disappear. what has actually happened is that those parties who supported independence have accepted that is it not an option and that we need and must function as part of the wider UK in order to improve things for people in Scotland and as a result in the UK as a whole.

THIS is what moving on means. It means accepting the situation and working within it to affect the changes that people vote for as set out in the manifestos. Independence has to take a back seat for this election and maybe for future ones too because the will of the people was that we keep our place within the UK.

The political leaders that benefit most from the first past the post system are squealing because they see the system changing not simply with the influence and popularity of SNP but also of UKIP, Greens and Plaid Cymru. Their complaining and whining about Scotland's elected representatives having the temerity to expect to challenge their policies and cosy club is nothing at all to do with the SNP's stated aim of independence for Scotland, or about their fears for democracy - it is about a fear of losing their influence and sense of entitlement that they have developed over the last twenty years and more- entitlement to a seat in parliament, to be paid hundreds of pounds for their lucrative sidelines because after all who can live off an MPs salary, to a seat in the house of lords once they are voted out or retire, to have us doff our cap and bend our knee.

The SNP, plaid Cymru and the greens it appears will not doff their cap or bend their knees or humbly wait to speak when they are spoken to and THAT is what is provoking the ridiculous nonsense we are seeing in the press and the threats to take up arms against Scotland that I have seen on Twitter this week!

rob murray
20-Apr-15, 14:31
It seems that people thought that a no vote would mean he whole of Scotland would shut up and disappear. what has actually happened is that those parties who supported independence have accepted that is it not an option and that we need and must function as part of the wider UK in order to improve things for people in Scotland and as a result in the UK as a whole.

THIS is what moving on means. It means accepting the situation and working within it to affect the changes that people vote for as set out in the manifestos. Independence has to take a back seat for this election and maybe for future ones too because the will of the people was that we keep our place within the UK.

The political leaders that benefit most from the first past the post system are squealing because they see the system changing not simply with the influence and popularity of SNP but also of UKIP, Greens and Plaid Cymru. Their complaining and whining about Scotland's elected representatives having the temerity to expect to challenge their policies and cosy club is nothing at all to do with the SNP's stated aim of independence for Scotland, or about their fears for democracy - it is about a fear of losing their influence and sense of entitlement that they have developed over the last twenty years and more- entitlement to a seat in parliament, to be paid hundreds of pounds for their lucrative sidelines because after all who can live off an MPs salary, to a seat in the house of lords once they are voted out or retire, to have us doff our cap and bend our knee.

The SNP, plaid Cymru and the greens it appears will not doff their cap or bend their knees or humbly wait to speak when they are spoken to and THAT is what is provoking the ridiculous nonsense we are seeing in the press and the threats to take up arms against Scotland that I have seen on Twitter this week!

Have you made a typo here ? ie "paid hundreds of pounds..." should that not read thousands of pounds ?

squidge
20-Apr-15, 14:43
You are right Rob ..... Thousands!!!!

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 14:54
You are right Rob ..... Thousands!!!!

How about hundreds of thousands? :D

golach
20-Apr-15, 15:03
You are right Rob ..... Thousands!!!!Remind me , who is the highest paid politician in the UK at the moment? Oh aye it's Nicola 😱

Rheghead
20-Apr-15, 15:05
Max Hastings in the Daily Mail says it will be a nightmare scenario that England will be ruled by Scotland in a hung parliament. Why does he think it is OK to expect the Scots to accept Scotland to be ruled by England without a moan?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982046/The-terrifying-prospect-Scots-ruling-England-real-MAX-HASTINGS-nightmare-scenario-facing-Britain-Election.html

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 15:49
Remind me , who is the highest paid politician in the UK at the moment? Oh aye it's Nicola 

Correction - ref http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31923794

" Under the new Scottish Parliament Salaries scheme the First Minister is entitled to receive 85,598 in addition to their MSP salary.
In effect, this would mean that Nicola Sturgeon could earn 144,687, just over 2,000 more than the Prime Minister, who currently earns 142,500.
But a spokesman for the Scottish government said Ms Sturgeon would keep to a voluntary Scottish ministerial pay freeze, agreed in 2009, giving the remainder to a fund to boost public spending.
This means her salary will remain at 135,605. All Scottish Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers also agreed to a pay freeze at 2008/09 levels. "

Thank you.

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 15:56
Correction - ref http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31923794" Under the new Scottish Parliament Salaries scheme the First Minister is entitled to receive 85,598 in addition to their MSP salary. In effect, this would mean that Nicola Sturgeon could earn 144,687, just over 2,000 more than the Prime Minister, who currently earns 142,500.But a spokesman for the Scottish government said Ms Sturgeon would keep to a voluntary Scottish ministerial pay freeze, agreed in 2009, giving the remainder to a fund to boost public spending.This means her salary will remain at 135,605. All Scottish Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers also agreed to a pay freeze at 2008/09 levels. "Thank you.

That's an awful lot of money to pay someone in Politics who has never been democratically elected to any position by the people they claim to represent.
So much for free and fair society ... Freeloader at the taxpayers expense put in position her own party but not the electorate.
It's about time Nicola Sturgeon actually stood for a seat and showed her mettle letting the people decide, or isn't that what the SNP claim to be about.
No matter how you feel about other MPs claiming expenses and being paid at least each one of them has been voted into position.

Rheghead
20-Apr-15, 16:00
That's an awful lot of money to pay someone in Politics who has never been democratically elected to any position by the people they claim to represent.
So much for free and fair society ... Freeloader at the taxpayers expense put in position her own party but not the electorate.
It's about time Nicola Sturgeon actually stood for a seat and showed her mettle letting the people decide, or isn't that what the SNP claim to be about.
No matter how you feel about other MPs claiming expenses and being paid at least each one of them has been voted into position.

Nicola Sturgeon is not democratically elected? Now I know you are living in an alternative reality.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 16:13
SNIP
So much for free and fair society ... Freeloader at the taxpayers expense put in position her own party but not the electorate.
It's about time Nicola Sturgeon actually stood for a seat and showed her mettle letting the people decide, or isn't that what the SNP claim to be about.
No matter how you feel about other MPs claiming expenses and being paid at least each one of them has been voted into position.

The same can be said about every other UK govt. minister. I expect the same applies to the assemblies in Wales and N.I.

Your point is?

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 16:15
Nicola Sturgeon is not democratically elected? Now I know you are living in an alternative reality.Care to name what seat she has sat for and won at any time in her career !

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 16:21
The same can be said about every other UK govt. minister. I expect the same applies to the assemblies in Wales and N.I.Your point is?

Nick Clegg ....North Hallam
Ed Milliband ..Doncaster North
David Cameron....Witney
All voted for and elected by the people

Seems they at least have been voted for some people some where it's called democracy.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 16:23
Care to name what seat she has sat for and won at any time in her career !

Here was me thinking she was elected as MSP for Glasgow southside in 2011, polling over 54% of the votes.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 16:26
SNIP
Freeloader at the taxpayers expense put in position her own party but not the electorate.

SNIP
No matter how you feel about other MPs claiming expenses and being paid at least each one of them has been voted into position.
Nick Clegg ....North Hallam
Ed Milliband ..Doncaster North
David Cameron....Witney
All voted for and elected by the people

None were voted into their 'position' but appointed by their party, not the general public.

rob murray
20-Apr-15, 16:26
Max Hastings in the Daily Mail says it will be a nightmare scenario that England will be ruled by Scotland in a hung parliament. Why does he think it is OK to expect the Scots to accept Scotland to be ruled by England without a moan?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2982046/The-terrifying-prospect-Scots-ruling-England-real-MAX-HASTINGS-nightmare-scenario-facing-Britain-Election.html

Fair do's youve made a good point : Hastings fails to grasp that we are now all dealing with a new political landscape, like it or not, perhaps if handled correctly, the ramifications of a hung parliamant and "deal" making can pave the way for a more equitable and federalist based UK.

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 16:29
Here was me thinking she was elected as MSP for Glasgow southside in 2011, polling over 54% of the votes.So just the one win in her whole career !

rob murray
20-Apr-15, 16:31
Im in a minority as Im not a sturgeon "fan" but one win was all she needs, its like football you win 1 -0...I cant see your point

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 16:33
But just shows SNP hypocrisy another high paid career politician being shoe horned into a safe seat, exactly the same as those she criticises.

Is that progressive socialism at its finest.

Same stuff different label.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 16:40
But just shows SNP hypocrisy another high paid career politician being shoe horned into a safe seat, exactly the same as those she criticises.

Is that progressive socialism at its finest.

Same stuff different label.

"Nurse, he's out of bed again!".

rob murray
20-Apr-15, 16:48
But just shows SNP hypocrisy another high paid career politician being shoe horned into a safe seat, exactly the same as those she criticises.

Is that progressive socialism at its finest.

Same stuff different label.

To be fair going by the opinion polls she could stand anywhere in SCotland and get in at any level MP MSP etc. As I said Im no fan, but she has certainly grasped the UK election mettle, according to the Sunday Times she has what they describe as "authenticy", very popular with the English to...as both head line parties are still focusing on austerity / cutting etc her message of spend and reduce the deficit has gone down really well with swathes of the electorate. She is centre stage and is playing a blinder, seen as fresh, I just hope that she can contribute to the UK as a whole come the deal making time. Interestingly the SUnday Times poimted to the elcetion of 1910 which was a hung parliamant and home rule concesssions were made to Irish mp's by whoever ( cant mind ) to make up a government. History may repreat itself. The Conservatives (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)), led by Arthur Balfour (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Arthur_Balfour) with their Liberal Unionist (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Liberal_Unionist_Party) allies, and the Liberals (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_(UK)), led by H. H. Asquith (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/H._H._Asquith), could not break the deadlock produced in the January general election (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_January_1910), with the Conservatives again winning the largest number of votes. The Liberal Party under Asquith formed a government with the support of the Irish Nationalists (http://forum.caithness.org/wiki/Irish_Parliamentary_Party). ( and promise of home rule, stalled by outbreak of war 1914 )

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 17:02
Aye she's made her mark for sure.
The usual spend spend spend promise the earth but deliver very little, let's look at realities they've achieved very little in 7 years apart from an increase in membership and more division in the country.

Fiscally they are pretty incompetent certainly not to be trusted with an economy.
Promising the earth is easy enough for anyone but delivering it is the hard part.

All I've heard from the progressive socialists so far is they seem to think they can spend their way out of debt. If you sat them in front of a bank manager with their ideas they would be laughed out of the door.
And still no one has actually answered how she is any different from all the leaders or what progressive socialism actually is.
Scotland's doing so well under SNP stewardship the NHS is still a mess, the Police force are out of control, unemployment maybe we shouldn't mention that compared to the rest of the UK. Roads still pot holed. Food banks no change there so where are all the vast differences for seven years of SNP governance.

Non that I can see just more and more unachievable promises and more politics of grievance.

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 17:05
"Nurse, he's out of bed again!".Aye out of bed and running screaming from all the lunatics voluntarily signing in for the asylum.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 18:38
Aye

SNIP

grievance.

Answer the following.

If what you say is true, why
a) did the Scottish people return an SNP government, with an overall majority, at the last Holyrood Elections?
b) does the current Westminster Election, appear to have the SNP considerably increasing their seats?

Now I accept that you are blessed with deep political insight, and that you can see through the SNP and all their tricks, but why are all these Scottish voters so easily hoodwinked?

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 20:03
Answer the following. If what you say is true, why a) did the Scottish people return an SNP government, with an overall majority, at the last Holyrood Elections?b) does the current Westminster Election, appear to have the SNP considerably increasing their seats?Now I accept that you are blessed with deep political insight, and that you can see through the SNP and all their tricks, but why are all these Scottish voters so easily hoodwinked?
Answers
A) the SNP may well have been voted in with a majority, but the labour govt was also voted in for three terms with majorities sometimes it just takes time for the public to see through all the spin and realise that all the blame games played are in reality the blame of those who are in power.
B) The SNP are once again driving the wedge of grievance into the debate more worrying is they are making promises that if fulfilled will leave future generations paying for the fiscal incompetence.

You can look around the world and throughout history to find all manner of totally unsuitable people who gained power through the same methods of political posturing, it's no great achievement more a matter of how long it takes those blinded by the rhetoric to see them for their true colours.

PantsMAN
20-Apr-15, 20:13
Answers
A) SNIP
B) SNIP

No answers then, just the usual Unionist blatherings, with no basis in fact.

Right up there with your nonsense above about Nicola Sturgeon never having been elected by the people.

Wayward rantings of a blinkered political light-weight.

BetterTogether
20-Apr-15, 21:49
Can you show me evidential proof of one long term progressive socialist government anywhere in the world that has delivered the utopia they all promise at any time in history ?

All I'm seeing is the usual left wing name calling which is par for the course and expected from people unable to maintain a reasonable political discussion without lowering themselves to personal attack.

Oh by the way unionist, I assume you mean the 55% who didn't vote for independence this is not the referendum that was resoundingly lost by the separatists.

rob murray
21-Apr-15, 10:00
Answer the following.

If what you say is true, why
a) did the Scottish people return an SNP government, with an overall majority, at the last Holyrood Elections?
b) does the current Westminster Election, appear to have the SNP considerably increasing their seats?

Now I accept that you are blessed with deep political insight, and that you can see through the SNP and all their tricks, but why are all these Scottish voters so easily hoodwinked?

There is a degree of hood winking / gilding the lily going on with the SNP ( as there is with all parties ) , one would have thought that the $110 oil barrel prediction / basis of ongoing funding ( in part ) and subsequent collapse of oil prices would have de railed the SNP / hit their credibility, but it hasnt, why, I really dont know, they have momentum, STurgeon is more appealling than Salmond and has UK wide credibility ( outwith Tories / UKIP voters ) ?, her leftish promises are more appealling to a disillusioned electorate ? yes voters rolling their votes into a general election on basis of bigger representation at westminster and hence more clout to force a re run ? people sick of hearing basically the same messages from the big 2 ? need for change ? ...reasons are complex but come the day / day after things will be a lot clearer.

rob murray
21-Apr-15, 10:04
But just shows SNP hypocrisy another high paid career politician being shoe horned into a safe seat, exactly the same as those she criticises.

Is that progressive socialism at its finest.

Same stuff different label.

Same can be said of any party, shoe horning into safe seats has went on for years so whats new, they all have the same label according to your point

BetterTogether
22-Apr-15, 16:28
Same can be said of any party, shoe horning into safe seats has went on for years so whats new, they all have the same label according to your point

Finally, at last you've got it.

Despite all their claims of being so different to everyone else it turns out they are just the same.


I've noticed no one has grasped that thorny issue of naming one successful socialist state anywhere in the world.

PantsMAN
22-Apr-15, 16:46
I've noticed no one has grasped that thorny issue of naming one successful socialist state anywhere in the world.


That state will be right next door to the long-term capitalist state in which there is an equitable distribution of wealth, a lack of poverty, housing adequate for the populations' need and health care available to all!

BetterTogether
22-Apr-15, 16:54
That state will be right next door to the long-term capitalist state in which there is an equitable distribution of wealth, a lack of poverty, housing adequate for the populations' need and health care available to all!

Would that be a concession to the reality no such place exists, if you happen to be referring to what may be an Independent Scotland it too would not be a socialist state unless you nationalise all industries and commerce and have the whole lot of us all driving the same cars, wearing the same clothes earning the same money and living in the same houses each owning an equal sized piece of land.

Now I wonder why the leaders of the SNP aren't redistributing their own wealth to there own party members so they are all equals.
That would seem the logical place to start all party members pool their wages and take out their fair share of the pot .

PantsMAN
22-Apr-15, 19:30
Now I wonder why the leaders of the SNP aren't redistributing their own wealth to there own party members so they are all equals.
That would seem the logical place to start all party members pool their wages and take out their fair share of the pot .

It seems only reasonable that the SNP follow the lead of the Westminster Parliament, given that Holyrood enjoys the epithet of the 'peedie parliament'.

It is unreasonable for the smaller place to lead the larger place is it not? Surely, Westmonster should lead by example?

Oh wait! All Scottish Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers have already agreed to a pay freeze at 2008/09 levels. I haven't heard MPs proposing the same.

Not only are these members of the Scottish Government redistrubuting their own wealth, they are doing it for the good of the country, rather than follow your notion that they should give it "to there (sic) own party members so they are all equals."

Seems quite altruistic to me and reasonably socialist.

However, I'm sure you'll come up with another hair-brained scheme, but you really are becoming tiresome.

Rheghead
22-Apr-15, 21:25
In 2010 David Cameron and Clegg struck up a working framework for a coalition. During those talks, the tories rejected a much purer form of proportional representation for a watered down less democratic form that wasn't fit for purpose. That went to a referendum and Cameron campaigned against it and we are stuck with fptp. Those fateful decisions have come back to bite the unionists on the bum. And to be honest, if we did have proper PR then we wouldn't be in this pickle in the first place as a lot of us would still be clinging to a Britain that we think is a place of fairness and a place to be proud of..

BetterTogether
22-Apr-15, 22:15
It seems only reasonable that the SNP follow the lead of the Westminster Parliament, given that Holyrood enjoys the epithet of the 'peedie parliament'. It is unreasonable for the smaller place to lead the larger place is it not? Surely, Westmonster should lead by example?Oh wait! All Scottish Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers have already agreed to a pay freeze at 2008/09 levels. I haven't heard MPs proposing the same.Not only are these members of the Scottish Government redistrubuting their own wealth, they are doing it for the good of the country, rather than follow your notion that they should give it "to there (sic) own party members so they are all equals."Seems quite altruistic to me and reasonably socialist.However, I'm sure you'll come up with another hair-brained scheme, but you really are becoming tiresome.

You see your post may seem all fair and reasonable but the other parties aren't flying the banner of progressive socialism and making much ado about a fairer society and all the woes of society caused by inequality.

A true political-leviathan would indeed draw only an average wage for their services to society instead we see a political minnow the first minister drawing over 100,000 and then lecturing the world about socialism now in my book that is just pure rank hypocrisy.
It's all well and good saying they've had a pay freeze to their already bloated from the public purse salaries for a quiet remarkable track record of not actually making any real difference except for failed policy after policy.

What really is tiresome is champagne socialists telling ordinary working class people how wonderful the world is going to be while scooping their own dollop of cream off the top and laughing all the way to the bank.

Now it may be tiresome to you to realise that even if the SNP do get a landslide at the election there are still people out here in Scotland who do not share your particular view on politics and that's the beauty of living in a democracy we have a little thing called Freedom Of Speech just remember last time we were all supposed to jump like monkeys to one view 55% of us decided we didnt want to. Messy Orrible thing democracy isn't it !

BetterTogether
22-Apr-15, 22:26
In 2010 David Cameron and Clegg struck up a working framework for a coalition. During those talks, the tories rejected a much purer form of proportional representation for a watered down less democratic form that wasn't fit for purpose. That went to a referendum and Cameron campaigned against it and we are stuck with fptp. Those fateful decisions have come back to bite the unionists on the bum. And to be honest, if we did have proper PR then we wouldn't be in this pickle in the first place as a lot of us would still be clinging to a Britain that we think is a place of fairness and a place to be proud of..

Aye it was a referendum and the people chose, nice thing democracy, now it's all well and good the SNP crowing from the heights about what they may do but the election has yet to take place,nothing is won or lost as of yet and regardless of whatever the outcome even worst case scenario that the SNP does get its hands on some power they only thing it would prove long term is how totally unsuitable and inept they are.
I seem to recall lots of folks on here telling everyone at the referendum how it was virtually a done deal because the pollsters where showing one thing and we all know how that ended.