PDA

View Full Version : Is Scotland really a one party state



BetterTogether
29-Mar-15, 16:43
With the run up to the general election now in full force much is being made of the upsurge in SNP membership and how labour is about to be wiped out in the forthcoming election. This has me curious though is Scotland rapidly becoming a one party state. Do the people of Scotland really all hold the same views on all SNP policies. Most other countries have a wide cross section of political parties which represent the views of the whole nation. Or are the polls once again incorrect and only showing one part of the picture.

Rheghead
29-Mar-15, 18:04
One party State? That sounds like a slur on Scotland. And you still wonder why?

BetterTogether
29-Mar-15, 18:16
One party State? That sounds like a slur on Scotland. And you still wonder why?I see no slur in the statement of the SNP win the predicted landslide victory the polls are suggesting with one claiming 87% then it would become a virtual one party state.

sids
29-Mar-15, 18:17
There are several parties. They don't all get the same number of votes.

At least, that's what I think happens.

sids
29-Mar-15, 18:18
I see no slur in the statement of the SNP win the predicted landslide victory the polls are suggesting with one claiming 87% then it would become a virtual one party state.

Is a large majority of votes fundamentally wrong and undemocratic?

BetterTogether
29-Mar-15, 18:19
Is a large majority of votes fundamentally wrong and undemocratic?Not at all I just find it a bit odd that one party can be all things to all people

Rheghead
29-Mar-15, 18:21
I see no slur in the statement of the SNP win the predicted landslide victory the polls are suggesting with one claiming 87% then it would become a virtual one party state.

It is a slur. A one party state is a state where other political parties are not allowed to exist by force or they are suppressed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state

BetterTogether
29-Mar-15, 18:25
It is a slur. A one party state is a state where other political parties are not allowed to exist by force or they are suppressed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_stateI did read in the media today that Nicola Sturgeons silencing of MSPs from talking out of line from the party mantra was positively Stalinist with Kesia Dugdale commenting on it recently. Wikipedia is hardly the best source to use and that is one form agreed but I sense you're just attempting to bait again

Rheghead
29-Mar-15, 18:26
I did read in the media today that Nicola Sturgeons silencing of MSPs from talking out of line from the party mantra was positively Stalinist with Kesia Dugdale commenting on it recently. Wikipedia is hardly the best source to use and that is one form agreed but I sense you're just attempting to bait again

That happens in all political parties except the Greens. It is called a political whip.

Alrock
29-Mar-15, 19:56
I can see where you're coming from, but it's hardly the SNP's fault if the other major parties are failing to step up to the plate.

sids
29-Mar-15, 20:24
I blame the voters.

David Banks
29-Mar-15, 20:26
Not at all I just find it a bit odd that one party can be all things to all people


Dear "BetterTogether,"

I find your (supposed) curiosity in starting this thread difficult to accept as being real.

You know exactly why people may want to support this particular party at this time, and you know full well there is nothing "odd" about it.

Divide and conquer will not work a second time.

gerry4
29-Mar-15, 21:42
When labour won the vast majority of seats was it classed as a one party state.

I think you will find that most peoples impression of one party states is one where only 1 party allowed the mechanics to run & tell the electorate their policies.

Not sure that could be said to be true here.

Gronnuck
30-Mar-15, 08:09
With the run up to the general election now in full force much is being made of the upsurge in SNP membership and how labour is about to be wiped out in the forthcoming election. This has me curious though is Scotland rapidly becoming a one party state. Do the people of Scotland really all hold the same views on all SNP policies. Most other countries have a wide cross section of political parties which represent the views of the whole nation. Or are the polls once again incorrect and only showing one part of the picture.

No BetterTogether Scotland is not becoming a one party state. The Conservative and Unionist party still exists, the Labour party is still active, the Green party is growing too. There has indeed been an upsurge in membership of the SNP. However not everyone who may vote SNP in the General election necessarily wants Scotland to be independent. They want change; they want something different. The Tories in Scotland have a history of being arrogant and complacent regarding Scottish issues and people have long memories. Scottish Labour has an uphill battle to establish themselves as a truly Scottish party and not just a branch office. SNP is possibly seen as an opportunity to shake up the Westminster village and its sycophants.

BetterTogether
30-Mar-15, 09:50
I'd tend to agree with you on many points Gronnuck, but politics is changing and some of the grievances of the past are not really worthy of dragging into modern times.
There isn't a single party that actually keeps to it manifesto promises and that needs changing. I am somewhat disconcerted by the actions of the SNP actually bringing in formal rules that stop its MPs from quoting anything but the party line, yes the party whip has often been applied in the past but even then an MP has had the option to vote as they wished.
With the new rules that option is removed from SNP MPs and they can no longer vote through conscience without fear of recrimination from the party.
Why would you want to vote for a party whose elected members are unable to freely speak their minds and are forced to toe the party line.
Some of the rhetoric of the SNP over what they would do should they gain that power is worriesome, forcing the UK to abandon Trident ( contentious I'd agree ) trying to disband the house of Lord, forcing 180 billion of spending through to name but a few.
If any of this happens it would create more division through the UK and make the SNP a toxic party within the UK who no other party would be able to deal with due to the backlash from the rest of the electorate.
Meanwhile here in Scotland all you'd have is policies being rammed through without due diligence and no single SNP member allowed to speak out for fear of reprisal from within their own party.

BetterTogether
30-Mar-15, 09:55
Dear "BetterTogether,"I find your (supposed) curiosity in starting this thread difficult to accept as being real.You know exactly why people may want to support this particular party at this time, and you know full well there is nothing "odd" about it.Divide and conquer will not work a second time.As this election is about a general election not a referendum my curiosity is well founded the two are quite different matters and given how woefully the SNP have managed the Scottish economy it's deep seated. I accept they buy an awful lot of votes with free prescriptions and not raising council tax but on record they seem to say one thing then fail miserably and ending up blaming everyone but themselves.

theone
30-Mar-15, 11:06
I think Scotland as a whole (and by that I don't mean everybody, but the majority in most places) are fed up with the traditional swing between the Conservatives (who are generally unliked in Scotland) and Labour (who are perceived to have moved away from their traditional policies).

I also think there's a real wish to reform the system of government, whether it be the first passed the post system or, more likely, the House of Lords.

I think a great number of people vote SNP as an alternative to the first, and a change to the second, regardless of their views on independence.

PantsMAN
30-Mar-15, 12:10
As this election is about a general election not a referendum my curiosity is well founded the two are quite different matters and given how woefully the SNP have managed the Scottish economy it's deep seated. I accept they buy an awful lot of votes with free prescriptions and not raising council tax but on record they seem to say one thing then fail miserably and ending up blaming everyone but themselves.

Clearly you think that every Scottish voter who votes for the SNP fails to have the deep insight which you have.

Why are there so many turning from Labour if the SNP are so poor?

Why were they voted in with an overall majority at the last Scottish Parliament elections after governing with a minority government?

PantsMAN
30-Mar-15, 12:11
With the new rules that option is removed from SNP MPs and they can no longer vote through conscience without fear of recrimination from the party.
Why would you want to vote for a party whose elected members are unable to freely speak their minds and are forced to toe the party line.

I think you're indulging in a wee bit of michief with that statement.

The report in the Herald said the following -
"The new standing orders state that any MP must "accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group. The SNP declined to comment on the move but confirmed it was passed "overwhelmingly" by delegates."

Rather different from your implication that on any vote that may occur, at no time will the SNP MPs be allowed to vote according to conscience.

Let's not go back to Project Fear where Unionist parties tried their hardest to demonise the SNP.

As you can see above, Lizz has already been hoodwinked into believing a load of nonsense.

Scout
30-Mar-15, 13:56
I think people jumping ahead again like the last time, We really do not know who will vote for who on the day, like last time what people say to family and friends and what they put on the cross will be different

squidge
30-Mar-15, 16:07
Interesting that this clause is portrayed as "nicola Sturgeon" silencing Mps. This clause was part of an amendment proposed by Angus Robertson MP and seconded by Pete Wishart MP - it was put to the conference and passed by the delegates that were entitled to vote. Nicola Sturgeon was not involved in proposing this although, just like every other delegate there she had the right to cast her one vote. Nowhere in the amendments proposed does it say there cannot be robust debate, nowhere does it say that people cannot vote according to conscience. It simply says that once decisions are reached publicly slagging off group decisions, group policies or other SNP Mps is not allowed. It is commensurate with policies on conduct for other parties, commensurate with the way civil servants are required to behave and reflects rules on conduct expected in the Scottish Parliament.

Fulmar
30-Mar-15, 19:21
I just hope that folk will actually turn out to vote as it is worrying that the outcome of elections these days is quite often decided on a low turn out and that, it can be argued, is inherently undemocratic whatever way it goes.
Maybe voting should be made
compulsory or is that taking things too far?

gardeninginagale
30-Mar-15, 21:04
theone, you are absulutely right. We will never have a real democratically elected government in either a united group of disparate countries with their own aspirations, or a combined UK, until we have the only fair democratic voting system which is proportional representation. The only party promoting PR are the Lib Dems, and they are out of the running. What does that say? I'm not promoting the Lib Dems, I am simply asking this question. Only PR will ever deliver a genuine democratically elected government. So ask your candidate where he or she stands on PR.

gerry4
30-Mar-15, 21:56
theone, you are absulutely right. We will never have a real democratically elected government in either a united group of disparate countries with their own aspirations, or a combined UK, until we have the only fair democratic voting system which is proportional representation. The only party promoting PR are the Lib Dems, and they are out of the running. What does that say? I'm not promoting the Lib Dems, I am simply asking this question. Only PR will ever deliver a genuine democratically elected government. So ask your candidate where he or she stands on PR.

Been told by a LibDem MSP candidate that PR will not be high up on list of priorities this time are there was a referendum on it. Also in current system they will gain far more than their entitled percentage of vote. UKIP in the polls are much higher but only expected to get 2 MPs (thank goodness).

I think PR will be a long way off.

Rheghead
30-Mar-15, 22:18
I'm not a big fan of UKIP as you may guess but if they are only expected to get 2 MPs out of 646 then something is wrong with our voting system when polls suggest they are attracting about 15% of the votes.

sids
31-Mar-15, 08:25
I'm not a big fan of UKIP as you may guess but if they are only expected to get 2 MPs out of 646 then something is wrong with our voting system when polls suggest they are attracting about 15% of the votes.

Say what you like about "first past the post," but if it keeps the Nasties out...

dozy
31-Mar-15, 08:45
Say what you like about "first past the post," but if it keeps the Nasties out...Explain who are the Nasties.

Humerous Vegetable
31-Mar-15, 15:10
With the run up to the general election now in full force much is being made of the upsurge in SNP membership and how labour is about to be wiped out in the forthcoming election. This has me curious though is Scotland rapidly becoming a one party state. Do the people of Scotland really all hold the same views on all SNP policies. Most other countries have a wide cross section of political parties which represent the views of the whole nation. Or are the polls once again incorrect and only showing one part of the picture.

Why would you see the current political status of Scotland as a one-party state? Maybe because there is no strong opposition to the reduction of austerity measures, supported by the SNP, the more socially just and inclusive measures, supported by the SNP, the ridding of Scottish taxpayers of the vast amounts of money they spend on Trident and the House of Lords, supported by the SNP...

Maybe if we had a decent opposition, the SNP would not have such massive support. It's called democracy.