PDA

View Full Version : SNP Privatising the NHS



BetterTogether
21-Mar-15, 12:39
For everyone interested in the reality of the SNP

I'd like to refer you to an article in the daily express easily found with a quick web search about how the SNP are farming more work out to private companies so they expenses do not show on NHS Scotlands books but instead pay private companies to provide healthcare.

This is a national disgrace and worse than anything parties South of the border would contemplate but it seems due to the usual SNP spin and lie machine it is being buried,hidden from public view the level of hypocrisy is astonishing

Many parties you should or could vote for in the upcoming election the SNP should not be one of them.

Sturgeon and Neil should be hanging their heads in shame

PantsMAN
21-Mar-15, 15:00
Ah, the Daily Express. That well-known, impartia,l Tory paper. :lol:

BetterTogether
21-Mar-15, 18:09
Interesting to note the problem seems to be the media reporting the facts.
Always interesting to note that SNP followers seem to forgive any transgression or misinformation passed down to them from party central, the same sort of fun and games any other party is pilloried and castigated for.
Now if it was the conservatives burying figures there would be public outcry, if labour then they'd be labelled Red Tories but the SNP can just do as they please bury the figures off book or deny then carry on regardless.

Maybe the party members will be happy to see their elderly relatives farmed out to private companies and the services of their local hospitals cut to the bone as long as the SNP get into power.

A question if you're having a heart attack and are told you have to go to Raigmore for treatment because the services you require are no longer available in Caithness, would you consider your vote well cast, a worthy sacrifice for political advancement ?

PantsMAN
21-Mar-15, 19:22
Would that be emergency treatment or cardiac surgery?

Did you miss the news about the £5M to be spent on Caithness General be NHS Highland?

Rheghead
21-Mar-15, 19:47
Noam Chomsky taught us that the standard technique of privatisation is
a)defund
b) make sure things don’t work
c) get people angry
d) hand it over to private investment that promise more choice and better services

But this is not what is happening here and here is why, The SNP government can only accept what is drip fed to them from Westminster via the Barnett formula. They are not able to make a choice other than make do with what they have and make it work.

BetterTogether
21-Mar-15, 20:13
All points accepted but as the NHS a in Scotland is fully devolved and in the hands of the SNP.

How do you explain increase for NHS In England and Wales of 4.5%,Scotland 1.5%

That is not a case of the Barnett formula not working or the UK Government starving the Scottish NHS Of funding.

That is a case that shows the fiscal ineptitude of the SNP who have had control of the NHS in Scotland for 7 years now.

But instead if passing on all monies the the NHS, starving the NHS by vote winning measures such as free prescriptions for everyone instead allowing those easily able to afford them pay.

SNP the party that lets millionaires and high earners have free prescriptions rather than charge them and let the less well off have free prescriptions.

Playing the staffing shortage card in Hospitals starved of good surgeons and consultants because they will only award short term contracts instead of giving highly skilled professionals the incentive to stay in our more remote Hospitals.
So in short we have
A.SNP defunding 1.5% compared to 4.5%

B. Ensure things don't work..award short term contracts to make positions unattractive & centralise everything

C. Get people angry. Blame everyone else except their own fiscal ineptitude

D. Hand it over to private investment. A fact we now know that the SNP have been doing for years but hiding the figures off book and denying it. Whilst calling foul of the UK govts.

Surely that must rank as hypocrisy of the highest order.

For once it appears we agree. So why is it you vote SNP ?

rob murray
21-Mar-15, 21:39
All points accepted but as the NHS a in Scotland is fully devolved and in the hands of the SNP.

How do you explain increase for NHS In England and Wales of 4.5%,Scotland 1.5%

That is not a case of the Barnett formula not working or the UK Government starving the Scottish NHS Of funding.

That is a case that shows the fiscal ineptitude of the SNP who have had control of the NHS in Scotland for 7 years now.

But instead if passing on all monies the the NHS, starving the NHS by vote winning measures such as free prescriptions for everyone instead allowing those easily able to afford them pay.

SNP the party that lets millionaires and high earners have free prescriptions rather than charge them and let the less well off have free prescriptions.

Playing the staffing shortage card in Hospitals starved of good surgeons and consultants because they will only award short term contracts instead of giving highly skilled professionals the incentive to stay in our more remote Hospitals.
So in short we have
A.SNP defunding 1.5% compared to 4.5%

B. Ensure things don't work..award short term contracts to make positions unattractive & centralise everything

C. Get people angry. Blame everyone else except their own fiscal ineptitude

D. Hand it over to private investment. A fact we now know that the SNP have been doing for years but hiding the figures off book and denying it. Whilst calling foul of the UK govts.

Surely that must rank as hypocrisy of the highest order.

For once it appears we agree. So why is it you vote SNP ?

Yer wasting yer time : the person your targeting wth your very well reasoned and proven facts is a SNIP / 45 er / bravehearter / Alexi cult worshiper....logic and proven facts wont work... its like trying to get a Rangers supporter to become a Celt lol lol lol ......

Rheghead
22-Mar-15, 10:29
All points accepted but as the NHS a in Scotland is fully devolved and in the hands of the SNP.

How do you explain increase for NHS In England and Wales of 4.5%,Scotland 1.5%

That is not a case of the Barnett formula not working or the UK Government starving the Scottish NHS Of funding.

That is a case that shows the fiscal ineptitude of the SNP who have had control of the NHS in Scotland for 7 years now.

But instead if passing on all monies the the NHS, starving the NHS by vote winning measures such as free prescriptions for everyone instead allowing those easily able to afford them pay.

SNP the party that lets millionaires and high earners have free prescriptions rather than charge them and let the less well off have free prescriptions.

Playing the staffing shortage card in Hospitals starved of good surgeons and consultants because they will only award short term contracts instead of giving highly skilled professionals the incentive to stay in our more remote Hospitals.
So in short we have
A.SNP defunding 1.5% compared to 4.5%

B. Ensure things don't work..award short term contracts to make positions unattractive & centralise everything

C. Get people angry. Blame everyone else except their own fiscal ineptitude

D. Hand it over to private investment. A fact we now know that the SNP have been doing for years but hiding the figures off book and denying it. Whilst calling foul of the UK govts.

Surely that must rank as hypocrisy of the highest order.

For once it appears we agree. So why is it you vote SNP ?

NHS spending is already consistently higher per capita in Scotland. The NHS in England is in crisis due to defunding and privatisation so it would intellectually dishonest to claim that a 4.5% increase on NHS spending in England compared to 1.5% in Scotland is proof that the SNP is starving the NHS of funds.

http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/data-and-charts/health-care-spending-person-uk

BetterTogether
22-Mar-15, 11:57
Could you provide a statistically accurate and impartial set of figures to back up your statement rheg.

As I seem to be unable to find any substantive factual evidence of your assertion.

Although the 4.5% to 1.5% figures are easily verifiable.


Remembering your use of Noam Chomsky point C a favourite SNP supporters act.

Get people angry !

Which seems to be their main raison d'Ítre the most singularly deviscive party in the whole of UK politics.

Rheghead
22-Mar-15, 12:48
I provided a link to the Nuffield Trust. You can't get more reliable and robust information than that.

I agree with you that unionists seem an angry bunch. That is not the SNP's fault, Yessers rely on reliable information for their assertions . So I can understand why this might anger unionists who rely on bogus soundbites like 'we are better together'. 'Being part of something bigger smooths out the peaks and troughs' and ad nauseam, etc etc.

sids
22-Mar-15, 12:54
More has to be spent in Scotland, because of the drink.

Alice in Blunderland
22-Mar-15, 13:08
How about we take politics out of it for a minute and all these facts, figures and at times heavily manipulated data and speak to the folk on the ground within the NHS. I can bet with almost 100% surety that you will find although both are needing massive increases in funding across the board no matter what government is deciding who gets what the NHS in Scotland is indeed in slightly better shape. Go on I dare you speak to the front-line staff. In England the NHS is on its knees and at breaking point. Scotland is still standing ....only just. After that then go and look at which party is running which NHS.

Alice in Blunderland
22-Mar-15, 13:10
s.

A question if you're having a heart attack and are told you have to go to Raigmore for treatment because the services you require are no longer available in Caithness, would you consider your vote well cast, a worthy sacrifice for political advancement ?

The answer that scenario will never happen.

BetterTogether
22-Mar-15, 13:51
So let me see if I have this straight.
Scottish NHS a is paid more per person than England, Wales and Northern Ireland
Yet
The claim is the UK Government is underfunding the Scottish NHS

That's a very difficult charge to substantiate when you're being paid more than they pay themselves.

Maybe the problem is the way the NHS a is run as opposed to the funding, huge rafts of unnecessary management. Elective surgeries and treatments paid for by the taxpayers.

Ridiculous state imposed targets and of course good old Marxist centralisation.

Alice I have the utmost respect for doctors and nurse and front line staff of the NHS a feŵ of my very good friends work within the NHS so I do hear tales of how its operated. A cardiac surgeon once told me he wished he could sack all the managers and sort his own budget out as they haven't a clue what he needs to make the job work. Another friend tells me frequently how management make ridiculous decisions and how much management is unecessary.

As for your remarks about unionists Rheg they seem fatous and purile at best just another attempt at baiting which seems to be your favourite pastime.

Rheghead
22-Mar-15, 14:08
So let me see if I have this straigh
Scottish NHS a is paid more per person than England, Wales and Northern Ireland
Yet
The claim is the UK Government is underfunding the Scottish NHS

That's a very difficult charge to substantiate when you're being paid more than they pay themselves.

Maybe the problem is the way the NHS a is run as opposed to the funding, huge rafts of unnecessary management. Elective surgeries and treatments paid for by the taxpayers.

Ridiculous state imposed targets and of course good old Marxist centralisation.


As for your remarks about unionists they seem fatous and purile at best just another attempt at baiting which seems to be your favourite pastime.

The decision to privatise had already been taken in England. I don't doubt there is some privatisation under the SNP's watch but I need convincing that there is any valid political argument that they are allowing privatisation on a larger scale than if the tories, labour or libdems were in their place. And that point is the key issue here, Willie Rennie's unrealistic promise of an £800m injection into the NHS notwithstanding.

And before you accuse me of making fatuous and purile remarks, you accused me of making threats and making smearing remarks to you. I substantiated the so called 'smear' (Why would you suggest that being called a tory is a smear when you are one is beyond me) and the threat was an unsubstantiated accusation. We could start off on a better foot if you took those remarks back. But I'll use my crystal ball and say you are not going to to. Am I right?

BetterTogether
22-Mar-15, 14:43
If you are prepared to retract the statement of costs which appeared aimed at me and desist from the name calling then I'm more than happy to apologise unreservedly.

The point being is the NHS a is a mess all parties accept that but for a party which throws about the privatisation statement at every opportunity then I find it hypocritical if they are doing the same thing whether it be on a lesser, greater or the same scale as the UK govt, decisions made on the Scottish NHS are purely under the SNPs remit and more openness and honesty about the situation instead of laying the blame elsewhere may make it more transparent for all the electorate to make informed decisions.

Rheghead
22-Mar-15, 15:30
If you are prepared to retract the statement of costs which appeared aimed at me and desist from the name calling then I'm more than happy to apologise unreservedly.

The point being is the NHS a is a mess all parties accept that but for a party which throws about the privatisation statement at every opportunity then I find it hypocritical if they are doing the same thing whether it be on a lesser, greater or the same scale as the UK govt, decisions made on the Scottish NHS are purely under the SNPs remit and more openness and honesty about the situation instead of laying the blame elsewhere may make it more transparent for all the electorate to make informed decisions.

Oh alright, I'm sorry for calling you Bittertogether, but the costs thing was not aimed at you and has been backed up, you may be just overly sensitive when it suits you. Can we be friends now?

As to your last bit. The FM has already said that she will try to do what is best for NHS Scotland but funding is not devolved, that will only come with Devomax or independence. It is rather disingenous to say the NHS is fully devolved when the means to pay it or improve it is based on public spending in England where the NHS is in crisis. NHS Scotland is funded as well as it can under the circumstances. But if the SNP are looking after the NHS over above that of England then what other public services are being underfunded to pay for it. It is the proverbial robbing peter to pay paul.

The only way out of this mess is to directly pay for Scottish public services with tax that has been generated in Scotland. Taxes in Scotland per person are already higher then rUK so why can't we use that higher level of taxation to pay for the higher level of public service without Westminster pocketing the difference??

squidge
23-Mar-15, 09:45
The NHS in Scotland DOES spend money on private health providers in Scotland. It turns to private hospitals to carry out operations where the waiting lists are high; it uses private companies to provide agency workers, locums, nurses. What the Scottish Government is NOT doing is taking entire services and offering them for tender so that private companies can run whole swathes of our NHS.

This is a fundamental difference. When whole services, like maternity services which Virgin (!) run in some places, or the hospital scanning contract Makcolm Rifkind's company won in Stoke despite being £7 million pounds dearer than the NHS tender, what happens is a transfer of equipment, staff and expertise away from the NHS - for good. Not just so Mrs Mackay can get her knee op more quickly. This means that in 5 years when the contract comes up again, the NHS no longer has equipment, knowledge, expertise and is less likely to win a contract or even be in a position to tender.
This takes that service out of the NHS completely.

Using Private services providers can help support our NHS. They don't have to take it over completely.

rob murray
23-Mar-15, 17:49
The NHS in Scotland DOES spend money on private health providers in Scotland. It turns to private hospitals to carry out operations where the waiting lists are high; it uses private companies to provide agency workers, locums, nurses. What the Scottish Government is NOT doing is taking entire services and offering them for tender so that private companies can run whole swathes of our NHS.

This is a fundamental difference. When whole services, like maternity services which Virgin (!) run in some places, or the hospital scanning contract Makcolm Rifkind's company won in Stoke despite being £7 million pounds dearer than the NHS tender, what happens is a transfer of equipment, staff and expertise away from the NHS - for good. Not just so Mrs Mackay can get her knee op more quickly. This means that in 5 years when the contract comes up again, the NHS no longer has equipment, knowledge, expertise and is less likely to win a contract or even be in a position to tender.
This takes that service out of the NHS completely.

Using Private services providers can help support our NHS. They don't have to take it over completely.

Cant see how they cant take it over by stealth just as you say is happenig in England, its all down to trusting politicians, and the SNIPS have told many a porky, mind you so has everyone else !