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Rheghead
28-Apr-05, 10:21
Did anyone watch 'Chaos in the Classroom' on TV last night?

I did and I was appalled at the behavior of the kids on the programme. Mind you, the lasso cover teacher struggled and freely admitted that she needed extra training to cope BUT I fear that any amount of training wouldn't equip her to cope with all that crap from the kids. One commentator's view of part of the problem was that parents had not 'crossed the fence' in attitude towards school and teachers since their time at school. Ultimately they have passed on their belligerence to teachers onto their kids. And now the teachers are not getting any support from the parents.

Does anyone have any strong views on this topic?

squidge
28-Apr-05, 10:36
I remember when my boys started Wick High School

Tehy came home and were wide eyed about the behaviour of some of their classmates. The older one STILL speaks with disbeleif about some of the goings on.

having moved to inverness the middle one is now at culloden and he was surprised how much better discipline was - he says pupils doas they are told and they are more polite and better behaved.

Im not sure what makes the difference - Maybe the head teacher is the key. If you look at a school where i grew up - Crompton House in Shaw... when i was secondary school age it had an awful reputation- badly behaved rude and unruly kids - my parents wouldnt let me go there because of it. The headmaster was ineffective and basically didnt control the school - there was no leadership. Change of headmaster and today it is one of the most popular schools with parents trying desperately to get their kids in and a reputation for high standards of discipline.

There was a fictionalised programme about the failing school in London with Julie Walters - now - given that it was "fictionalised" we have to be careful but again the issue was leadership - strong deterined focused leadership produces better behaved kids.

Headteachers should be leaders with vision,articulate and passionate about what they do. That will be a start

Rheghead
28-Apr-05, 10:56
squidge, I agree with you that schools need strong leadership as was born out by one example in the programme where they had a 'Zero tolerance' policy on even the slightest bit of bad behavior. My wife once taught at a school that was a mainstream school but it was also a 'sink' school for rowdy kids from other schools in the area. The headteacher at the time was very good, but his rate of exclusions was too high and so was reflected in the school's Ofsted report. Ultimately he paid the price and was moved from the school. The exclusions are down and the behavior has since got worse. They cannot close the school because the rowdy kids would have to go back to the original school thus causing havoc again. It is kinda like a catch 22 situation.

A school is assessed on its performance, attendance and behavior (with threat of school closure) yet when something is done about the bad behavior it gets assessed badly so the easy thing to do is to ignore the bad behavior. :confused

jjc
28-Apr-05, 11:34
Yes, the teachers do have a responsibility to maintain discipline and yes the government does need to help by not removing their ability to do that… but the fact is the parents are ultimately responsible for everything that their children do.

I thought it was rather telling that in the zero-tolerance school in the programme last night the parents of children who broke the rules were contacted and asked to come into school either the same evening or the next day to discuss their child's behaviour.

~~Tides~~
28-Apr-05, 11:49
I think if they scrapped the law that you have to stay till you are 16 would be good. The ones who dont want to be there would leave, leavein the ones that do want to learn to learn. Everyone is happy.

jjc
28-Apr-05, 12:25
I think if they scrapped the law that you have to stay till you are 16 would be good. The ones who dont want to be there would leave, leavein the ones that do want to learn to learn. Everyone is happy.
Hands up everybody who wanted to be at school at fourteen... :roll:

DrSzin
28-Apr-05, 12:29
[...] but the fact is the parents are ultimately responsible for everything that their children do..
Hmm, do you mean legally, morally, in practice, or in principle?

As you well know, it is very, very difficult for parents to control the behaviour of rebellious teenagers. I know some parents who are dedicated to their kids, who do everything possible to ensure their kids are well-mannered and well-behaved at all times, but kids have minds -- and friends! -- of their own, and they do things that they shouldn't. It's very hard for the parents to cope, and they get very down about it. In the cases I am familiar with, I'm pretty sure it's not the fault of the parents, and I really feel for them.

Before anyone rants at me, I should say that I am not woolly liberal: I voted for the first option above, and I agree with most of what has been said so far. But there are some aspects of teenagers' behaviour that it's nigh-on impossible for parents to control in practice.

As for good schools and bad ones...

To a first approximation, the city schools with the best reputations (and examination results) lie in the more prosperous middle-class areas, and the ones with the worst reputations are in the poorer, more "deprived" areas. There are exceptions of course. For example, there is a high school in a good middle-class area, not far from where I am sitting, that has a pretty awful reputation. This siituation has been sustained for some time because most better-off parents send their kids to private schools. However, a new headteacher took over a few years ago, and I am told that there have been enormous changes for the better. Let's hope they continue.

I used to live in the catchment area of the high school with the biggest social mix in town. However, I voted with my feet a few years ago, bought an overpriced house in a "posh" area, and my kids go to a very good local primary school. They are due to go to a high school with one of the best examination records in Scotland. I just hope they behave there!

jjc
28-Apr-05, 12:40
[...] but the fact is the parents are ultimately responsible for everything that their children do..
Hmm, do you mean legally, morally, in practice, or in principle?
With the exception of 'in practice', all of the above.

DrSzin
28-Apr-05, 12:50
[...] but the fact is the parents are ultimately responsible for everything that their children do..
Hmm, do you mean legally, morally, in practice, or in principle?
With the exception of 'in practice', all of the above.
:D As you might have noticed, I deliberately didn't put "in practice" at the end -- I ddn't want to make it too easy for you.

Are parents really legally responsible for the deeds of their teenage offspring? Is the law the same for under- and over-16s? Yes, I know I should know this, but I don't, and I am too lazy to look it up (it's lunch time!), and I am sure that someone here will either know the answer, or will look it up while I am lunching,

Setanta
28-Apr-05, 16:39
I didn’t see the show last night but I caught a review of it. One thing that was talked about there was that the teacher "might" have encouraged bad behaviour for better telly.
Leaving that aside I do agree that there is a lot of misbehaviour going on. IMHO I believe that we have become far too soft with kids, discipline has been completely eroded. It’s got to the stage that a teacher can not invade pupils "personal space"
We have created a scenario whereby the children rule the classrooms and the teacher has to prove him/herself to them, on their terms. What a picture that evokes 30 hormonal teenagers getting together to create a harmonious, intellectual enlightening environment. Yip no problems there and of course they will all sit down to give their highest regards to their tutor.
Moving on to the parents, I agree that they are responsible for their children’s behaviour.
Total control of children at this age is impossible, as DrShin says they have minds and friends of their own, but the influence from the domestic habitat should influence the children enough to stop them from being completely unruly and lacking in respect for the authority. Some amount of unruliness is only to be expected, it’s natural.
Bring back capital punishment I say oopps I mean corporal. [mad]

Alli
28-Apr-05, 16:50
I don't agree that it is the parents fault that the kids are bad. When I was in Primary school we had the belt. I would have been terrified to go home and tell I had received the belt in the school, my Mother would have belted me as well! Once I received 500 lines and went to my pals house to do someof them and then I set the alarm to go off at 5 in the morning as to get them done before my Mother got up.

I do think the belt was a good deterrent but now things are so P.C that you cannont even so much as look at a child. I do believe that because the children only get a punishment exercise that they do as they please in some classes.

My cousin is a teacher who has a Primary 7 class. In the class there is one boy who disrupts everything all the time and one day he even stood on his chair swearing for 10 minutes and all she had done was to ask him to read from a book! Her reply was , "In your own time sit down" Every one in the class laughed at the lad so much he sat down quickly, sometimes the teachers have to have a sense of humour to get them through the day. I for one couldn't be a teacher, I would either become an alcoholic,or be a permanent resident in Carstairs! :evil

DrSzin
28-Apr-05, 17:23
Total control of children at this age is impossible, as DrShin says they have minds and friends of their own, but the influence from the domestic habitat should influence the children enough to stop them from being completely unruly and lacking in respect for the authority. Some amount of unruliness is only to be expected, it’s natural.
Bring back capital punishment I say oopps I mean corporal. [mad]
DrShin indeed? You fail the speling test. That'll be six of the best for you, young man (or woman).

Not sure that I agree with you over corporal punishment. I once "owned up" to something I didn't do just to be macho and to find out what a belting would be like. I was never ever scared or intimidated by such a crude punishment after that. I just laughed when teachers threatened the belt. I think you got it right first time. :D

Now, punishment exercises were something else. I hated them. The only thing worse would have been punishment poetry.

Apart from that, I agree with what you say.

--
I've just spotted a good typo in here -- I had "intimated" instead of "intimidated" -- not what i meant at all!

EDDIE
28-Apr-05, 17:26
To be quite honest i blame the parents its there job to educate theres kids to behave within reason and i also blame the doo gooders who banned the belt.To me the only chance the school has of enforceing discpline is through some form of fear like getting the belt if you do something wrong.
When i was a kid in the primary school about 25 years ago I got the belt at school for fighting.My sister grassed on me to my mum and then i got the belt from my mum for getting the belt at the school i still think that was unfair to this day but i never did it again so maybay there was logic in that method.
To me as well what can a teacher do if a kid is badly behaved and the kids parents arent interested apart from expelling the kid but thats not the awnser and the kid cant take all the blame really if his parents attitude is wrong but the belt might make the kid think twice especially if its sore.

katarina
28-Apr-05, 17:39
I agree. I don't know how much good the belt did in the long run, but it helped the teacher's keep control. I personally would never misbehave in a class where the teacher was known to be belt-happy. I once got the belt for something I didn't do - unfair, but it didn't do me any harm.
Parents backed the teachers in those days, as well.

Rheghead
28-Apr-05, 17:39
Eddie, I agree with you whole heartedly about the cane and belt. Corperal punishment has been banned for over 20 years now in England (in most except the grammer schools) and behaviour has not improved, it has got worse. So much for the logic of violence breeds violence eh? It is time the Government called a halt to this failed experiment and get back to proper punishment, one that really hurts.

Right across the animal kingdom, offspring are kept in check by a degree of measured violence that is healthy. We are no different to animals but to interfere with basic animalistic chastisement will cause problems, as bad behaviour in the classes is the clearest testament yet.

DrSzin
28-Apr-05, 17:53
I know a lot of teachers and, as far as I can make out, 'tis indeed true that they have their hands tied behind their backs as far as imposing discipline (for want of a better word) is concerned -- and the kids do indeed know this and take advantage of it to the full.

As Raonaid says below, the inability of mainstream schools to impose an effective exclusion policy is a major contributing factor. (If this post now claims to have been edited twice, then I really have sussed the criteria.)

At least in Caithness you don't have a fundamentalist christian-socialist brainless toss-pot in charge of educational policy. Yeah, you guessed it, we do... He has no common sense whatsoever, but I suppose I'd better not name him here. :roll:

The belt never did me any harm either, but it did harm to the teacher that threatened it. He belted half the class and we were never scared of him or anyone else ever again. The mad fool. I guess most of us were smarter than him anyway. Maybe it only works for those who don't understand anything else?

Yes, that's it, let's belt the thickos, and give punishment exercises to the clever dicks. I'll call Michael Howard and suggest it to him. Problem is, he might just like the idea. :roll:

BTW I think I have finally sussed when you can (and can't) edit your own posts without the "Last edited by .." line appearing. Doh! I guess that puts me in the queue to be belted yet again. :eyes

Raonaid
28-Apr-05, 18:17
Something not mentioned yet is the teacher said that 30 years ago pupils with behaviour or learning difficulties were in special schools and it has been the policy of inclusion which has been a factor in unruly behaviour in the class room. we need the goverment to stop talking and give local authoritys the funds to open referal units with trained staff, not just teachers but psychologists, care workers etc, so disruptive puipls or pupils with severe learning difficulties can get the help and type of specialised teaching they need. I also believe that in some cases the rights of the parents to send their children to a mainstream school should be overuled if it is deemed that that pupil would damage other puipls education or mental development.

EDDIE
28-Apr-05, 18:33
Yes Raonaid but we are not in the perfect world what we should be in and even if they get the funds needed it would take quite a long time to put right.But to me to get discipline you must have a good detterent like the belt befoe it will work its like the army look at the disciplin there image telling a corporal to get lost u wouldn't no what week u were in once the corporal was finished with u disiplin = fear of punishment if u dont follow orders. The schools need to revert back to the old style of teaching and give kids that want to learn a better chance of education.And they should try the method out on one of the worst schools to see if it makes a difference.

George Brims
28-Apr-05, 19:15
My experience was that the belt was useless for most kids, expecially those who got it most often. I remember a few people in my year having a contest to see who could get the most strokes of the belt before Christmas! Consistency wasn't good. Teachers ranged from a certain maths teacher who used to work in his father's fencing business in the summer holidays, and was extremely muscular in consequence, to a lady in biology who was so bad at it she would miss the outstretched hand and whack herself on the leg!

The special schools idea is common here in the US. Round the corner from my house is a wee place called the "continuation school" which has a bunch of unruly kids kicked out of the main high schools in the area. I hear they do great work with those kids, mostly due to the experienced staff who have seen and heard it all before, and take no nonsense (no corporal punishment here either). Unfortunately our city council appears to be in the pockets of land developers, so the place is to be closed and the land sold off. The kids will be back in the other schools. We'll see how that goes in time I suppose.

A real eye-opener, since I haven't seen the TV show people were discussing, was "Diary of a Teacher" on the Private Eye web page. I read it about a year ago. I'm not sure it's still there though.

Wow I got through this post without dissing EDDIE for skipping English class. Oh, wait... D'Oh!!!

katarina
28-Apr-05, 20:05
what about brat camp? seems good idea to me!

Naefearjustbeer
28-Apr-05, 21:15
What about respect! Kids dont respect anyone these days, not even themselves. Until that happens what hope have you got. By the time they go to primary school they should know right from wrong.

EDDIE
28-Apr-05, 21:35
Hi george thank you for pointing that out lol.I would say not so much as missing classes more i used to stare out the window and paid little attention in classes i open lay admit that if i could turn the clock back in time i would do a lot different things but unfortunatly you dont think like that when your a teenager.

rainbow
28-Apr-05, 21:41
Watched Tonight with Trevor Macdonald on Monday and they are altering 3 boys diets in an attempt to improve their behaviou in the classroom - all 3 are in a special school. Conclusion of how the experiment has altered their behaviour is on on Friday night-after a month of pure food with no processed and high sugar foods. Should be quite interesting and may be partly responsibsle for unruly behaviour.

Alananders68
28-Apr-05, 22:47
I agree with George that the belt was useless, I can remember myself being part of a contest to see who could get the belt the most and 7 of us each paid 50p into a kitty with winner takes all. The belt was always a preferred punishment as it was over with quickly even if it did sting from certain teachers. Even lines and writing out school rules was pointless as people would just pass it discreetly around the class and everybody would do a bit.

The belt was abused by some power hungry teachers who would give it for such petty things, I was never bad but got the belt lots of times, I remember getting it once just because I refused to address a teacher as Sir and other times for just eating in class or throwing a stink bomb. Maybe if teachers gave a little and accepted that kids will always be kids and like to have some fun, there is no harm in school pranks like putting a drawing pin on someones seat or throwing a stink bomb, it is part of being young and having fun and if teachers let those things go then there wouldn't be as much trouble. I know that because teachers who were easy going never got any trouble but the strict ones kids would push them and wind them up and often some would go too far.

I always maintain there is no such thing as bad children, only bad parents and so bad behaviour stems from the homelife, but you can't class harmless pranks as bad behaviour so you need to seperate what is bad behaviour and what is just youngsters enjoying their youth.

I know from having kids of my own that a big problem today is drugs and a lot of schoolkids are taking drugs, drugs were unheard of when I was young. This rise in drug use can only be a bad thing as drugs usually leads to other crime but you cannot blame the teachers for this, it is upto parents to know what there kids are doing and also partly to blame on the police because they do nothing about the drug dealers in the town.

DannyThe Manny
28-Apr-05, 23:19
From what I read about the programme, the teacher gave up teaching many years ago. She then started a career in television. then decided to go back to teaching, with a camera in her bag.

I agree with what George Brims said, when I was at school we knew which teachers you could make a fool of, and which ones you would sit quietly and listen to, this was between 1961 and 1974.

What makes me wonder about this programme is, was the teacher any good when she taught previously, or was she no good, got laughed at, and got another job. And after several years in TV, decided to get her revenge on all the little brats she had trouble with by making a film which made their kids out to be animals.

I don't have any illusions about kids, but I have fewer about journalists.

Setanta
29-Apr-05, 00:31
The only problem with putting all the blame on parents in this very large field is that it negates the children that are born "bad" that is those with mental problems. If the problem is not severe enough they are put in main stream education and that is just not fair on the rest of the children. Again children with behavioural problems should not be allowed into the general class they are a hindrance to the rest. These children need special treatment before they should ever be allowed in to the mainstream.
As for the belt, the majority of children are afraid of it thus it does its jobs.
Mind you we do have to allow for the masochists eh Alanander68, I bet you moved on to the whip and a mistress :lol:

champagnebaby
29-Apr-05, 03:12
I don't think it's the parents to blame at all.

When i was at school - not so long ago. I wasn't exactly well behaved(to put it mildly) and i can't really say what made me misbehave, partly it was fun to be a show off and wind up the teachers.

I didn't really like school much and that was probably half the reason i played up - in the classes i liked i was a model pupil but in the ones i didn't like all i done was mess around, carry on, cause trouble and be a disruption(along with others who couldn't be bothered learning).

After being suspended several times it didn't bother me, i ended up thinking of it as a skive - even though i used to crap myself on the way home for the trouble i was gonna get, even then it wouldn't deter me from being bad. My mum tried everything with me and it made no difference.

Now i'm older and slightly more wiser(lol) i wish i'd learned and stuck in at school cos carrying on and getting in trouble got me knowhere . . . . . . . . but the rectors office. Of course when i was at the school i never thought i'd hear myself say this!! :eek:
Back then people would say to me 'stick in at school, you only get one chance, i wish i had' but i just thought so what and didn't ake on board what they were saying. But at that age i didn't listen to anybody.

Think it was just a rebellious stage and possibly hanging around with the wrong crowd which my mum and social workers tried to stop me doing but it was impossible for them to keep an eye on me 24/7 so there was nothing they could do as i just wouldn't listen.

And i don't blame anyone for the way i behaved but myself as i knew right from wrong and when i was doing wrong i didn't care.

Ohhh and i don't think the belt wouldo made a blind bit of difference cos i'd get the slipper or a good slap when i got home anyway and that didn't bother me. . . . . . . . . apart from when i'd get to the bottom of the street and i'd be thinking 'oh god, i'm in for it' but once i'd had my punishment and was about to do something bad the next day i wouldn't give it a second thought.

katarina
29-Apr-05, 08:20
The only problem with putting all the blame on parents in this very large field is that it negates the children that are born "bad" that is those with mental problems. If the problem is not severe enough they are put in main stream education and that is just not fair on the rest of the children. Again children with behavioural problems should not be allowed into the general class they are a hindrance to the rest. These children need special treatment before they should ever be allowed in to the mainstream.
:lol:
I agree. This has been tried, and to my mind failed. It makes it harder on the teacher and the brighter pupils who want to learn. I understand the thinking behind it - but did the special classes, really create such a stigma? and were the special children aware of it if it did? I would argue that a special child would feel more inferior having to compete with normal children than in a class room of others with similar abilities. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

lassieinfife
29-Apr-05, 09:34
My grandson who is 10 suffers from dyslexia and has ADHD[ along with some other medical problems ]which with his medication is kept well under control,Andrew is above average intelligence for his class and is in mainstream education, has never caused any bother in class, unlike some of his classmates who do not have learning difficulties but have never heard of discipline at home and do not know how to behave in public places.Children like Andrew are well aware of their problems and limitations and do not need a reminder that they are different from other children by being segrigated,some of the brightest people in the worrld have had learning difficulties and they mastered their world.. so come on dont blame the children with difficulties for disruption in classes... ok a few will do so but not all. I still maintain discipline begins at an early age and taught by parents,how many times have you all been out seen an unruley child and blamed parents? we have all done it and thanked god our children never behaved that way .


sorry I will now stow my soap box away in cupbpard [disgust]

Zael
29-Apr-05, 09:34
Back then people would say to me 'stick in at school, you only get one chance, i wish i had' but i just thought so what and didn't ake on board what they were saying. But at that age i didn't listen to anybody.
Yeah, me too. But what I need now is some way to translate that into something a teenager will listen to. I've tried plain english but find I'm just getting frustrated repeating it over and over.

I dont think its possible to blame just one person for the state our education system is in. Not every teacher is brilliant, not every parent doesn't care, not everything that has changed over the years is a bad thing. Although I do think that the perception of "rights" that kids have these days is well out of proportion. Cameras in every class would make me feel that at least there is no more room for lying to get teachers/kids into trouble. I also reckon that segregation is a good thing and leaving disruptive kids in a class brings everyone down.

I think one of the things that affected me badly at school was all the pressure to get it all right first time, no one ever discussed the possibility of college for picking up the subjects you didnt get at school. I know that everyone wants their kids to be on to university or working when they leave but thats one hell of a lot of pressure for a child to take on. I know that my time was better spent at college, perhaps because I was older and a bit more responsible, to a degree. I sailed through stuff there that had completely lost me in school.

I've just noticed that I'm pretty much arguing against my own point from the start of this post about doing well in school, just goes to show what a problem it is...

Alananders68
29-Apr-05, 11:09
I still maintain discipline begins at an early age and taught by parents,how many times have you all been out seen an unruley child and blamed parents?
Exactly! Discipline and respect need to be taught at an early age starting as you mean to go on. In my street there are kids as young as 9 who are out to all hours because there parents are more interested in hanging off the end of a fag and getting blind drunk than the welfare of there children, my neighbour had his car scratched and tatties stuck up his exhaust, he has cctv and saw the kids who did it so went to there parents and all he got was a lot of abuse and threats.


After being suspended several times it didn't bother me, i ended up thinking of it as a skive - even though i used to crap myself on the way home for the trouble i was gonna get, even then it wouldn't deter me from being bad. My mum tried everything with me and it made no difference.
Your mum obviously didn't try everything, and where is your father in all this, no mention of him :confused . We never minded getting the belt in school but by god if I'd have ever done anything to get suspended my old man would've battered me, I feared my father like many of my friends did and we just never got into proper trouble. I remember once joining in the kick e doorie in hillhead and word got back to my dad that I'd thrown a firework in old Condie's door, well my Dad dragged me round to Condie to apologise, made me throw my spectrum computer out the window, and gave me such a battering that I was unable to go to school for a week, I never hung around with the wrong crowd after that and never got involved in kick e doorie ever again.

Punishment needs to be severe, look at how most criminals don't fear the courts or jail because jail is a holiday camp and courts usually just hand out petty fines that criminal can pay back at £3 a week, if prisons were what prisons should be and if sentencing was tougher then crime would be lower.

lassieinfife
29-Apr-05, 11:35
alan i maintain disciplin is necessary for all but giving a child such a thrashing that he couldn't go to school for a week makes him no better than a thug... and I for one would have reported him. My 3 children never recieved more than a slap on their bums but had to learn to behave through good example, Im not saying they were angels but were punished according to the crime.... battering a child is no way to teach them respect and it usually carries on to the next generation.

champagnebaby
29-Apr-05, 13:18
After being suspended several times it didn't bother me, i ended up thinking of it as a skive - even though i used to crap myself on the way home for the trouble i was gonna get, even then it wouldn't deter me from being bad. My mum tried everything with me and it made no difference.
Your mum obviously didn't try everything, and where is your father in all this, no mention of him :confused

Here you go again, thinking you know everything - as you did in the thread about the missing girl.

The reason there's no mention of my dad is because he didn't live with us or take anything to so with us and don't even bother going down the 'if you had a father you would've behaved' road because my mum was probably strickter than he wouldo been.

As far as i can see my mum did try everything, she tried talking to me, hammering me, getting my granny to guilt trip me(which made me feel really bad), put me to a child phsycologist, got the police on me and eventually called the socaial work. I got put on a supervision order and could've got sent away. This made me realise what i could lose and beause i know they had REAL power over me and what happens to me it made me toe the line. They helped me and my mum communicate better and come to compromises over things we’d locked heads at - like what time i'd have to be in at night and what was as suitable punishment for the severity of what i'd done. Going to the sociall work was the last thing she wanted to do and the last thing she done - because it worked, if bad parenting was to blame she wouldn't have done all that she would've just let me run wild and not disciplined me.

Now she's my best friend and the person i'm closest to, we spend loadsa time together.

Ohh and just cos a battering from your dad sorted you out doesn't mean it would work the same for everyone. When i used to get a smack i'd hit back then it'd end up a proper fight. It was a battle of wills and were both stubborn and probably a little bad tempered - that's not bad parenting that's a personality trait!

But anway . . . . . . . the topic here is chaos in the classroom and i still say it's the child themselves to blame. For a fact some of the people who had the hardest up brining were the quietest and most conscientious pupils in the class whereas them who had everything were the worst. You can't put a label on these things because everyones situation is different.

katarina
29-Apr-05, 13:31
I thought it had been proved now that all these chemicals in junk food now-a-days can cause bad behaviour in children.
And Champagnbaby, the reason you turned out okay in the end was because your mum tried everything. If she had let you run wild, there's no saying what would have happened before you learned sense.

Rhubarb
29-Apr-05, 15:01
I didn't see the programme that started this thread but as an enthusiastic teacher, I am very disappointed to see that 4 people have blamed teachers for disruptive classrooms. My only thought is that they all have children who are disruptive in class and they are looking for someone else to blame.

Teachers are there to teach not to manage behaviour! Yes, they have to impose high standards in all areas in the classroom but when the day is taken up managing behaviour there is something far wrong.

I have a very good class this year so I am lucky but last year I couldn't turn round because there was 2 boys who would kill each other, if I did. Both children were from backgrounds where family life was not stable and trying to get the parents backing was a nightmare.

Too much reponsibility is put on teachers these days. We are expected feed the children before they come to school, teach them all day and look after them afterschool and what thanks do we get? None! How often do we get a phonecall from a parent to say how well we are doing? Not once in my teaching career but they are very quick to get on the phone if there little angels are not happy.

As for the amount of junk food that kids eat these day, I am disgusted by it. Jamie Oliver proved that by taking away junk food in schools it has helped their behaviour. So if there are any parents out there who's children are playing up, look at what you are feeding them. Again parents are to blame here.

So all of you parents who think teachers have got it easy, working from 9am-3pm, think again! I love my job and I work really hard at it. I am rarely out of the school before 5.30pm and am always in before 8.30am. More hours than many people work these days. Next time you see your child's teacher have a thought about all the hard work they are doing. After all, a lot of what your child learns is at school.

Alananders68
29-Apr-05, 16:18
Champagne, if your mother had really cared enough about you then you would not have been in a broken home, children need both parents. Check the prison stats and the majority of people who are in prison for serious crime come from broken homes which says it all.


Teachers are there to teach not to manage behaviour!
Well said! I was speaking to one of my old teachers this afternoon and having this discussion and he reckons that children who's parents take an interest (i.e. attend parents evenings, spend quality time with their kids etc.) are generally well behaved and attentive, but children who's parents take little interest and children from broken homes are very disruptive which he puts down to them crying out for the attention that they don't get at home.


Jamie Oliver proved that by taking away junk food in schools it has helped their behaviour.
I disagree with that, that programme would've been made to look like it was a success, it will have been cleverly edited. Food has nothing to do with it and is just an excuse being used by some people to wriggle out of there responsibility.

Drutt
29-Apr-05, 16:41
Did somebody forget to tell Michael Howard that if he wants to post on caithness.org he can just go ahead, and that he doesn't need to create an alias?

lassieinfife
29-Apr-05, 16:52
Alan I have never read so much scanctimonious rubbish that you have posted, its time you removed your blinkers and come into the real world, food additives have been proven as a link to bad behaviour,

children from broken homes are not bad kids and cant be blamed for disruption............. i think you post this rubbish to gain the attention you so desperately crave.You are behaving like the children you are condemming

Champagne can hardly be blamed for coming from a broken home unless you blame her for splitting family up? whch going by your previous post i have little doubt....

To Champagne all I can say is thank god and your lovely mum that she cared enough about you to go to the measures that she did.

so come on Alan come out from the victorian age and into the year 2005,I wonder what your wife's views are on these subjects......... probibly not allowed to express them

Alananders68
29-Apr-05, 16:55
children from broken homes are not bad kids
I never said they were!! It's the parents who you'd describe as bad, not the children, children need both parents and a loving stable home and if people are not willing to give that then they shouldn't have kids in the first place.

squidge
29-Apr-05, 16:58
Jamie Oliver proved that by taking away junk food in schools it has helped their behaviour.
I disagree with that, that programme would've been made to look like it was a success, it will have been cleverly edited. Food has nothing to do with it and is just an excuse being used by some people to wriggle out of there responsibility.

wowwwwwwwwwwww guess what - alananders68 cant cook!!!!!!!!!! [lol] [lol] [lol]

lassieinfife
29-Apr-05, 17:01
alan you have just proved my point you are an idiot! ............ couples who have children dont say we will have x amount of children then split up so that our children will disrupt the world......... things happen prople change. GET REAL WILL YOU [mad]

squidge
29-Apr-05, 17:05
children from broken homes are not bad kids
I never said they were!! It's the parents who you'd describe as bad, not the children, children need both parents and a loving stable home and if people are not willing to give that then they shouldn't have kids in the first place.

Circumstances change alananders and you must have this perfect life if you dont realise that. It is a sadness for everyone when a marriage breaks down ther is pain and anguish for everyone - some situations cannot be tolerated and therefore marriages end. You think people CHOOSE this. When you marry someone you expect it to last forever or you wouldnt do it. You expect to have a loving and sharing relationship to nurture your children in - you dont expect to have your dreams hopes and aspirations shattered.

Your suggestion that this is the case insults me and many others like me who struggle to create a loving home and include their ex partner in their childrens lives and DID think their marriages would last. The disappointment and pain that it didnt will stay with me for the rest of my life

Alananders68
29-Apr-05, 17:13
alan you have just proved my point you are an idiot! ............ couples who have children dont say we will have x amount of children then split up so that our children will disrupt the world......... things happen prople change. GET REAL WILL YOU [mad]
Here we go again with the childish name calling and insults, it shows you people for what you really are and it's no wonder you will defend the bad.

As for broken homes, yes people change but having children is a big responsibility and not a decision to be taken lightly, you should only have children when you are absolutely sure that you can provide them with the loving home they need and once you have children then you owe it to them to keep it that way. Relationships have to be worked at, and marraiges you make a vow through good and bad. Once you've got married or had children then that is it, you are committed to that regardless of whether someone changes, if someone changes then you have to work harder at the relationship to get it back on track and NOT take the easy way out.

champagnebaby
29-Apr-05, 19:14
Champagne, if your mother had really cared enough about you then you would not have been in a broken home, children need both parents. Check the prison stats and the majority of people who are in prison for serious crime come from broken homes which says it all.



Alananders you are so ignorant. Do you think it would've been better for my mum and dad to stay together and be unhappy and make us unhappy or it better them to be apart and happy??? You don't know what it was like when my dad stayed with us so how can you comment. My mum tolereated behaviour(that many wouldn't) from my father for 11 years and tried to make things work for mine and my brothers sake and so she could have money and a nice home and give us the things we wanted - she didn't just give up at the first hurdle like you seem to be trying to insinuate. I'm not going to go in to any more detail cos you don't listen anyway :mad:

I'm sick of explaining myself to you - you're too pig headed to listen to anyone elses point of view and you just dis them at the first opportunity - only have to look through your previous posts to realise what a negative person you are.

Alli
29-Apr-05, 23:59
Get a grip on the real world alananders68, what planet are you living on? Life is not all lovey dovey, roses round the front porch. Some folks out there have had a hard time and turned themselves around and all you do is continually moan and snipe at folk. What have you got a severe chip on your shoulder about.

You cannont come on this site moaning about individuals who are mearly expressing their own opinion, every one can and does have different views, your opinion counts for diddly squat!

Have you got a personal grudge against everyone who breaths!

squidge
30-Apr-05, 17:18
once you have children then you owe it to them to keep it that way. Relationships have to be worked at, and marraiges you make a vow through good and bad..

Infidelity?
Alcoholism?
Drugabuse?
Violence?
Abuse?

Whats bad enough?


Once you've got married or had children then that is it, you are committed to that regardless of whether someone changes, if someone changes then you have to work harder at the relationship to get it back on track and NOT take the easy way out.

This is probably the statement that shows your ignorance and lack of empathy more than any other.

Easy way out? Do you really think any of it is easy? The end of hopes and plans? The end of financial security? The deterioration of something you thought would last forever? The struggle to make ends meet? The problem trying to make a new life? The difficulties explaining to your children and making sure that your feelings about the other parent dont spill over to them? Its hard work, tiring exhausting and devastating.

Open your eyes

Alananders68
30-Apr-05, 17:33
Well Squidge you talk about hopes and plans and financial security, but what about the most important thing...LOVE?? If you truely love someone then you love them eternally no matter what because love is unconditional. To end a marraige because things get tough instead of fighting to save it shows that there couldn't have been any love there to begin with.

squidge
30-Apr-05, 17:47
ok

You are right - i didnt mention love....... Love doesnt conquer all.... Love doesnt necessarily end with the end of a marriage either does it?

If love was all it took then all those men and women whos partners beat them would be able to LOVE them to stop it. If love was all it took then infidelity would never happen, if love was all it needed to keep a marriage together then all the problems would evaporate with that word - love.

Love is all you need?

I wish!!!!

If what you are saying is true then someone would maybe take a beating - put their arms round their partner and say I forgive you i love you - despite the fact i have two broken ribs a black eye and you knocked me unconscious.

How about

"ive been having another affair but i love you" - " thats ok darling i love you too here is your dinner"

What about "i dont love you any more" "But i love you so that makes it allright"

How can you be so judgemental?

brandy
30-Apr-05, 17:47
Alananders68 im guessing you are neither married or have children.. and it sounds as if you did not have a nice childhood as well...
it does not matter what kind of parents you have.. you are the person you make yourself to be.. and take it from someone that knows... marrige is very hard.. and even when you have a wonderful spouse when you add children to the eqation it dosent matter how hard you try its not easy... and do you think it is healthy for children to be raised in homes of violence and hate .. just because parents have decided to stick it out for the kids?
you really need to open your eyes to reality.. there is no such thing as black and white... everything is grey...
you just have to get thru it one day at a time and sometimes it works and sometimes it dosent..
there are people out there who had the ideal upbringing .. all the love and caring you could ask for.. and have grown up to be murderes rapist and serial killers where at the same time their are those that grow up in adversity and hardship.. who become the most upstanding of citizens and philantripists..
you can not go about telling people how to live thier lives .. all you can only live your life and respect the privacy of others and how they live theirs..
like my father once told me.. ( as i hated the girl my brother was marrying)
you dont have to like it but you have to accept it.. because that was his choice to make.. and we had to respect it..
they are now divorced thankfully before they had children but even if they had .. they would have never made it together..

golach
30-Apr-05, 19:54
Eddie, I agree with you whole heartedly about the cane and belt. Corperal punishment has been banned for over 20 years now in England (in most except the grammer schools) and behaviour has not improved, it has got worse. So much for the logic of violence breeds violence eh? It is time the Government called a halt to this failed experiment and get back to proper punishment, one that really hurts.

Right across the animal kingdom, offspring are kept in check by a degree of measured violence that is healthy. We are no different to animals but to interfere with basic animalistic chastisement will cause problems, as bad behaviour in the classes is the clearest testament yet.

Rheghead, I dont often agree with your postings, but I have to admit whole heartedly with you on this point. The day the "Lochgelly Tawse" was banned from Scottish schools discipline has gone down hill.
I was not a perfect pupil at my schools and had my fair share of the belt, and to be fair to the teachers I deserved it every time. I was in terror every time I got "six o the best" not of the pain because that was soon forgotten, but of my Father finding out, because of the skelping I would get from him.
To this day I have never been in any trouble with the Authorities, I have been in constant employment since I left school in 1955, and I put that down to the word Discipline which I had at home, school, and naval service in both the Merchant and Royal Navies

Golach

EDDIE
30-Apr-05, 23:23
Squidge i would pay to much attention to what Alananders68 is saying ive been reading a lot of his messages sounds to me that he hasnt much experience in life.If he had he wouldnt put so much stupid comments up here.

macc
01-May-05, 16:21
I agree with some of the posts, yes we do need to take back some sort of punishment to try to control these youngsters. They do lack respect over the whole spectrum from teachers to parents. I remember as a kid being to scared to answer back to teachers incase a report would go to my parents and I would be in for it then. My parent brought me up with the respect your elders approach. God knows it worked. I bring my children up the same that no matter what they do I will support them but if they do wrong I come down on them like a ton of bricks. Kids these days have so much more these days, playstations, teles in their rooms, computers you name it. We were lucky if we had a bag o elastic bands to play chinese skips. Maybe thats part o the problem they have too much material things and not enough attention in some cases. More parents work fulltime these days and the children are put to childminders or after school clubs. I think society these days have moved too much to an opposite degree because of all the child abuse cases they have clamped down on all parents preventing us disciplining our children even with a smack. Who can blame them child abuse is terrible and no child should go through it, but if you are a responsible parent you know the boundaries between discipline and abuse. The solution to the problem nobody knows

brandy
01-May-05, 17:31
i agree.. the system has gone too far in the opposite direction.. yes children need to be protected but they also need dicipline.. one of the main arguments of the people trying to stop smacking is that you would not hit a adult when they do something wrong.. but thats just it.. a child is not an adult and you can not reason with them as you would an adult.. for them to grow up to be a caring loving and upstanding grown up and not a hooligan they need boundries and rules and when they breech those punishments to fit the crime... taking your hand to their bum or grounding them and taking away thier things is a world away from taking your fist to them or locking them in a cubbard..
their are limits to everything unfortunatly the children are not learning this as they KNOW their rights and lack of rights of parents..
how many times have i heard... if you dont do as i say i will call social services and say you hit me... you would be surprised!!
:evil
however my cousin once upon a time tried that with my uncle.. she looked him in the eye and said.. " if you dont do what i say ill call social services and tell them you beat me and they will put you in jail!" well my uncle being a good old fashioned daddy.. jerked her up put her over his knee and wore her bottom out.. he sat her back up... looked her straight in the eye and said " well if im going to jail ill be going over something i did"
funny thing she never tried the stunt again!

Whitewater
01-May-05, 22:16
Tut tut alananders68 !!! having trouble in this thread as well :D , good on you all ladies get stuck in. [lol]

cliffhbuber
05-Jun-05, 02:50
;) Hoy! Hoy!

A fine daze to all!
As a 'Johnny Come Lately' to this theme, my suggestions are brief.
As one who taught history, English, Math, Physical Education & Sports to students 12 to 15 years old, whose minds were beginning to 'wake up', a few pointers:
Extracurricular activities - as many as possible - such as playing ice hockey during gym could show the odd recalcitrant kid who was Boss; humour conquers all! A raising of the eyebrows with well-placed puns helped to keep ahead of the game; and parent communication with regular phone calls, (email today) home visits, and monthly progress reports can do wonders..... Sure did for me. :D
ps - treating the kids as adults by actions and words also helped - mutual respect.

the Best
Cliff of Canada

zapper
05-Jun-05, 07:50
Ok reading this thread everything seems to be pointing towards the parent, what about the society we live in today, everyone has to be sooo Politicaly Correct its sickening. There's also the Drug problem to conscider which is far more common than people think. On the whole when we were at school and got the belt there were next to no incidents of Violence towards teachers, sure kids will muck about and misbehave to a degree but thats all part of the learning curve of life.

Alananders68 your posts are victorian in values and sickening to read. Every partnership or marrage do not end up a bed of roses and people split for all kinds of reasons. Champagnebaby is a credit to herself and her mother and reading the content of her posts obviously didn't waste all of her time at school. You on the other hand seem to have a real need to be loved and to love. Take off the rose tainted spectacles and look at the real world.

I for one am a single parent and split with my partner due to illness, there was nothing that she or anyone else could have done about it. Now i know my kids are happier seeing their parents living apart and happy rather than being together and arguing all the time. They STILL have both parents in their lives and are good kids. So to blame the classroom behavior of today on parenting and broken relationships is complete and utter tripe. Its a combination of things and i do believe that harder discipline is the key, but as i said before today's P.C Society won't allow it. If i misbehaved when i was younger my mum would give me a clout, if a parent does that today they can be arrested and charged. I rest my case.

Lavenderblue2
17-Nov-05, 18:08
Unruly behaviour is without doubt the fault of parents today – followed close behind by the all too ‘soft approach’ to children in general.

Respect is a forgotten word these days - if I had ever dared come home from school having been reprimanded it would have been followed up by a further chastisement of some form or other – usually a good hiding!!

Therefore we just didn’t misbehave – and I know it is classed nowadays as a cliché but ‘it never did us any harm’ whatsoever to get the odd good hiding – and I did the same with my two.

porshiepoo
17-Nov-05, 19:39
Oh dear! I do agree with some of what you say but I have to completely disagree with the smacking part. Raising your hand to anyone - including children - is violence and abuse and has no place in the world today.
What does smacking a child to 'teach them a lesson' actually tell them? That it's ok to hit someone to teach someone a lesson.
Under no circumstances is it ok to hit a child! If someone smacked you one to 'teach you a lesson', you'd be up in arms. Probably report them to the police or at least hit them back.
What would you do if your child hit you back? Hit it back some more until the biggest one wins? Well what does that teach them!
Or better still do we teach them that it's ok for an elder to hit them, and that they're expected to put up with it, until they themselves are elders.
Respect is something that is not the sole right of adults to expect. You wouldn't respect a partner or neighbour etc that hit you, so why expect hitting a child to teach them respect to you and others?
It's an archaic form of punishment!

Rheghead
17-Nov-05, 19:49
If someone smacked you one to 'teach you a lesson', you'd be up in arms.

Not necessarily. It would depend if I thought I deserved it or not.

_Ju_
17-Nov-05, 20:02
I think if they scrapped the law that you have to stay till you are 16 would be good. The ones who dont want to be there would leave, leavein the ones that do want to learn to learn. Everyone is happy.


I disagree with youTides. How many 16 year old's make rational descisions? If they can't be kept in the school they are in, alternatives have to be created. Send them to vocational schools so that they at least learn a trade. Otherwise you'll end up with a whole lot of illiterate unemployable people living off benefits. Isn't there enough of that already? You can't just allow a child younger than 16 to decide he/she doesn't want to go to school anymore.

_Ju_
17-Nov-05, 20:35
What about respect! Kids dont respect anyone these days, not even themselves. Until that happens what hope have you got. By the time they go to primary school they should know right from wrong.
I agree. It IS all about espect and you DO learn it before you go to school. It doesn't make it plain sailing for when teenage hormones kick in, but if you give your child the tools and skills it needs to tell right from wrong and the fortitude not to give into peer pressure, especially when it is for something wrong, then you will have a respectful child and you have given him/her the best of what it needs to be a sucessful adult.

I don't nderstand all ths enthusiasm for briging back corporal punishment When I was in school I got two rulers on my ankles once, for something that wasn't my fault. That has stuck with me for many years. It makes me certain that no teacher will be allowed, nor should be allowed to hit a pupil. Hitting teaches nothing, except eventually fear, if it even does that. Fear will not teach someone respect, the error of their ways or about the conequences of their behavour. It wil just teach them not to get caught next time. Using corporal punishment on "grown up" size children? It would only instigate a like response: the answer to violence is more violence.

There are many forms of discipline that work that do not include coporal punishment. The teachers have to be given the authority to use it, however. And parents have to back up the school's authority. Its no use taking a disruptive pupil ou of class and send him ten pin bowling for his trouble. There needto be clear rules with clear punishment, that should include detention, extra work, and suspension. These punative measures should be accumulative and once a certainlevel attained exclusion from main stream education sould be instituted. Vocational schools for arning a trade or something like brat camp/ army schools could be used as alternatives for recalcitrant students.

squidge
18-Nov-05, 13:51
Children need clear boundaries - whether at home or at school. Some schools dont have that - some teachers cant set boundaries, some parents cant either.

When the boundaries are crossed and even the most respectful and well behaved teenagers will cross boundaries - thats what it means to be a teenager. They need to know they will be punished.

Im not a great beleiver in corporal punishment. I too was strapped at school and it never "frightened" me into behaving in the future. I do however beleive in smacking as a tool to discipline your children. It works in a way that is immediate and effective. A short sharp smack will get the message across as long as it is not the first action and it is deleivered in a controlled and managed way.

Loving discipline is vital in bringing up healthy happy well adjusted children and for me, smacking is a part of that.

marion
19-Nov-05, 03:49
Interesting topic here. We have had the same problem with children in the states as parents with their children in Scotland and Great Britain. I partially blame my own generation. When I came back from overseas after WWII and this followed after the great depression, I remember hearing many of my generation saying "I am going to make certain that my children will not have to suffer as I have had to suffer through my growing-up years." I believe it went even further. I believe my generation gave their children too much with out passing on the responsibilities for their actions. I believe that the Almighty gave the responsibilty to parents to raise their children properly and too often the parents failed.

squidge
22-Nov-05, 16:10
You know what's interesting

Its that some people think that the children themsleves are moe to blame than the teachers for the lack of discipline in schools and that more people think the government is to blame than the teachers.

I think that the responsiility lies with me as a parent but i also think that responsibility is partly shared witht he teachers. Between school and home it should be sorted out.

I think that blaming the kids and the government isnt going to make an iota of difference

lassieinfife
22-Nov-05, 16:47
I agree with you squidge but I think the onus should mostly be on parents.. teach a child that no means no and not maybe and things would improve.I was brought up with army disciplin, which was a lot stricter than most kids at the time were used to, it did me no harm and I have brought my 3 children up the same way ,abet tempered to suit the times,they in their turn are passing it on,again tempered to the times to their children, so no dont blame the teachers or the govt. I say parents and do gooders mostly to blame:(

porshiepoo
22-Nov-05, 19:46
Have to agree with you some what there lassieinfife, I too had a forces upbringing. It never did me any harm.
The only thing I do not believe in, ever, is any kind of physical punishment whatsoever. I don't think it's warranted and I don't think it should be allowed.

golach
22-Nov-05, 21:25
I agree with you squidge but I think the onus should mostly be on parents.. teach a child that no means no and not maybe and things would improve.I was brought up with army disciplin, which was a lot stricter than most kids at the time were used to, it did me no harm and I have brought my 3 children up the same way ,abet tempered to suit the times,they in their turn are passing it on,again tempered to the times to their children, so no dont blame the teachers or the govt. I say parents and do gooders mostly to blame:(

I was brought up in a disciplined household we did what our father said and did not quetsion it, Why?...He was my Father and paid the bills.
I was also brought up in the era of the Lochgelly Tawse, a fearsome weapon in the eys of some, I was not a wee angel at school so therefore I got my share o the belt. Did I turn in to a sadistic thug because of it, not in anyway.
Did I resent the teachers who gave me the belt...no never, because I never got the belt unless I had disrupted the class or had cheeked the teacher. so I was always in the wrong.
Did I run home and tell my Dad.......NO way......I would have got worse from him, so the teachers were teaching me a lesson, take your punishment and thats that.