View Full Version : It will never work
Jack McConnell, want to put jobless 16 to 17 year olds into the Territorial Army to help them make something of their lives.
I dont think so!!! I was a member of the Royal Navy Reserve for 27 years and my final 6 years were as a Chief Petty Officer in charge of New Entry training at HMS Scotia. Kids now a days will not accept discipline and being given orders.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=jack-s-army%26method=full%26objectid=18813113%26siteid=66 633-name_page.html
Here is the other side of the coin, a perfect example of what I mean, our First Minister's idea will not work. These three are a shining example to the Black Watch Cadets.....I dont think!!!!
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=black-watch-cadets-in-knife-raid-on-shop%26method=full%26objectid=18813164%26siteid=66 633-name_page.html
I think that is a very good idea. A bit of national service might give the youth of today some pride. It doesn't have to be military service, we could follow the Singapore model, where young people give two years service to the country. It can be in anything, road building, public construction and preservation projects, environmental schemes, the military, they have a choice as to what they will do.
It is a rite of passage, they go in as kids and come out as responsible adults.
How many join the Black Watch, and how many become as the three in your example. Now compare that with how many leave school and take any old job and of those how many end up in our town centres every week blind drunk, fighting and getting arrested?
It doesn't have to be military service, we could follow the Singapore model, where young people give two years service to the country. It can be in anything, road building, public construction and preservation projects, environmental schemes, the military, they have a choice as to what they will do.
It is a rite of passage, they go in as kids and come out as responsible adults.
This is Scotland not Singapore, Jack McConnell is not Lee Kuan Yew, if we had a strong politician and leader such as Lee, then maybe and only maybe your idea would work.
Children in Singapore are brought up respecting family and elders, not so in Scotland. I like Lee Kuan Yew's stand on society and his attitude to drugs, if we had a little of that here and a little less of the PC brigade then Scotland could be a better place
http://www.geocities.com/rajeevgm/lky/
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The original Grumpy Owld Man
personaly i think it is a very good idea...I was born into the army and lived with it for 20 years of my life.....I have brought my children up with the same discipline that i was and they are great kids...It would not harm them to learn a few manners and to do what they are told..They may not have the respect now but they would if they spent four months on their hands and knees scrubbing floors and making beds before they even got breakfast...They would learn alot more than they would left where they are...Jobless and bored...
Respect comes with discipline, and out of it comes a better person...:lol:
but it is so easy to blame the parents...Most of them, do there utmost best to help their children grow into respectful people but there are some kids that just dont listen..I think it is unjust and unfair to just BLAME THE PARENTS...
Over 5000 young people sign up forthe armed forces every year, cant all be bad people golach !
And besides, what if they did go for this territorial army idea, even for every 10 kids you got one good one who went on to make something of him/her self in the forces or went back out onto civvy street and used skill learnt to get a job, at leasts it one !
Over 5000 young people sign up forthe armed forces every year, cant all be bad people golach !
And besides, what if they did go for this territorial army idea, even for every 10 kids you got one good one who went on to make something of him/her self in the forces or went back out onto civvy street and used skill learnt to get a job, at leasts it one !
well said..The majority of civvies that enter the forces do tend to better themselves and like you say if only 1 out of 10 make, better than none....
But then what will be done with those that dont want to change their outlook on life...as we dont have conscription any more...Maybe they should bring that back.......But on a different note, there are plans to raise the school leavers age to 18, so they might sort this out one way or another....
Thats their worry !
Its there for them, take it or leave it
but it is so easy to blame the parents...Most of them, do there utmost best to help their children grow into respectful people but there are some kids that just dont listen..I think it is unjust and unfair to just BLAME THE PARENTS...
Why? Children are the responsibility of their parents. If a kid doesn't listen you make them listen.
I agree bad kids are the result of bad parenting.
Metalattakk
27-Mar-07, 12:35
but it is so easy to blame the parents...Most of them, do there utmost best to help their children grow into respectful people but there are some kids that just dont listen..
And who's fault is it that they "just don't listen"? The parents.
I think it is unjust and unfair to just BLAME THE PARENTS...
I don't. I believe it's entirely their fault. You certainly can't just blame the kids.
ŠAmethyst
27-Mar-07, 12:45
So once again we blame the parents. This is ridiculous guys...
I'd sooner blame the schools.
I know one young lady who was suspended from school for over a week for trying to stop her teacher from being in a bad mood. Albeit she did insult him... unintentionally though.
She was forced to miss an exam or two. Which I believe is unfair, and I can assure you that her parents are strict. Infact, her father's incredibly strict that he scares even me!
If the kids are old enough to talk back, they're old enough to take responsibility for the words that come out of their mouths.
It could also have something to do with the company that kids keep. If they're friends are mouthy and good at misbehaving, then it's likely that they will, too.
Teachers at school these days have to be careful of how they punish the bad ones... and trust me - detention doesn't work. When I was at school, ok, I only had 2 detentions but they weren't that bad... infact, they were quite fun!
So once again we blame the parents. This is ridiculous guys...
I'd sooner blame the schools.
I know one young lady who was suspended from school for over a week for trying to stop her teacher from being in a bad mood. Albeit she did insult him... unintentionally though.
She was forced to miss an exam or two. Which I believe is unfair, and I can assure you that her parents are strict. Infact, her father's incredibly strict that he scares even me!
If the kids are old enough to talk back, they're old enough to take responsibility for the words that come out of their mouths.
It could also have something to do with the company that kids keep. If they're friends are mouthy and good at misbehaving, then it's likely that they will, too.
Teachers at school these days have to be careful of how they punish the bad ones... and trust me - detention doesn't work. When I was at school, ok, I only had 2 detentions but they weren't that bad... infact, they were quite fun!
i believe alot of kids are suspended from school due to the principle.No matter how minor the offence it is easy to throw them out than deal with it.....
I dont think all parents are to blame because there are some kids who just wont listen....My parents gave me the best upbringing.I had my education in Boarding school, and i still managed to get into trouble, but i did not disrespect my elders or cause anyone but myself any hardship.......There are aot of things to be said about kids behaviour and who is to blame and it is not down to the parents all the time....All best intentions can go wrong....
Well said Amethsyt,
At times it can be the parents, at times it can be the kid, and yes it most always boils down to peer pressure. I have seen kids from very good, very well adjusted parents, who have gone off the rails, i seen kids from shocking families who were saints.
Sure the schools could do more for discipline, but they have to follow all these stupid guidelines and pc correctness!
As for parents, well, life has changed a lot over the years, their is more expected of us ! work, we work tougher,longer hours than before, employers want value for money, we get tired and stressed, come home later, shift work, longer commutes etc it all impacts on our social life, so we need to be able to make time for our families, try and sit down at meals together, talk to each other and listen ! we can put all the safety measures in place and hope that our offspring do right, we can easily become to domineering which is as bad as not doing enough
If a kid misbehaves enough to be sent home from school then it is a GOOD parent's duty to deal with the problem, instead of trying to place the blame elsewhere.
Bad parents will stay sat on the sofa and claim it must be the teacher/school/government's fault and then let their kid out onto the streets to take drugs.
Your children are YOUR responsibiliy, YOU are responsible for them learning respect for others and knowing right from wrong.
And who's fault is it that they "just don't listen"? The parents.
I don't. I believe it's entirely their fault. You certainly can't just blame the kids.
ia m not saying that we should blame the kids or the parents directly....I do say that society and the attitude of people has a big role in this.How do we instill respect and discipline into youngsters when parents have their hands tied behind there backs,,,We parents are not allowed to slap a child, which is not the answer, if we shout at them because they dont listen, then we get acused of being to harsh..What happened when parents had the right to discipline their kids...Now we have to depend on the likes of the TA and boot camps...Not a bad idea....
There was a case of one lady in america that had enough of her daughters attitude and sent her all the way to Mexico to a boot camp, and she came back a better child.....
:lol:
ŠAmethyst
27-Mar-07, 13:19
If a kid misbehaves enough to be sent home from school then it is a GOOD parent's duty to deal with the problem, instead of trying to place the blame elsewhere.
Bad parents will stay sat on the sofa and claim it must be the teacher/school/government's fault and then let their kid out onto the streets to take drugs.
Your children are YOUR responsibiliy, YOU are responsible for them learning respect for others and knowing right from wrong.
Incase you're mistaken... this girl is 15, and not my daughter. Do don't make me feel like you're talking directly to me. Her parents did punish her. And she's now back at school (with a broken toe - not her parents doing).
Her friends leave a lot to be desired... Jospra, there is MORE than 1 thing to take into consideration here.
As for the main subject... putting kids as young as 16 into the TA because they're not working... no, I think they should be encouraged into further education - but I agree with the TA idea in certain sircumstances. Like... when a kid is repeatedly suspended etc.
j4bberw0ck
27-Mar-07, 14:12
no, I think they should be encouraged into further education
Have you seen the increase in dropout rates since the government took to "encouraging" kids into further education?
i have not seen the dropout rates but if they make it mandatory for children to stay until 18 like they are thinking of doing, they should not have the chance to drop out.....In germany the children stay on at school until they are 18, they even go to school on saturday morning 8.00am till 12 pm...they have no system for young school leavers and i found it a better system...
Over 5000 young people sign up for the armed forces every year, cant all be bad people golach !
Solus I fully agree with you, and many decent youngsters volunteer for the TA & RNR and the RAF Reserves, good on them,I was one myself and I had two sons in the Royal Navy, but they are volunteers not as I suspect what our First Minster is proposing, IMO he is suggestion conscription a different kettle of fish altogether.
I am not having a pop at our serving servicemen, they are doing a very difficult job, but the current publicity that has come to light reference use of drugs and desertion is not going to do the recruiting offices a lot of good.
Both my sons were either serving or under training during the Falklands War, I had no compusion as a parent in letting them join up in those days. How many parents of teenagers today must dread the day that their dearly beloved, comes to them and says I want to enlist? I would have doubts now myself if I am honest.
ŠAmethyst
27-Mar-07, 15:33
Have you seen the increase in dropout rates since the government took to "encouraging" kids into further education?
I haven't - but if they're that bad... maybe it's the government doing something wrong and not the parents of these kids, huh?
Actually, what have the government been doing to encourage these kids? Other than helping provide bursaries... but throwing money at them won't make them decide what they want to do with their lives. By the time I reached 6th year I hadn't a clue what I wanted to do while all my friends either wanted to be occupational therapists, primary teachers or join the raf... all of which I thought sounded horrid.
I went to college and did a course I didn't even want to do because a relative made me. That's not encouragement either.
I think a lot of these kids just need something they can relate to... not a guy in a suit saying 'hey, let's encourage children to stay on at school.'
But I'm sure a lot of people will be with me on this one... after all, there's nothing we like better than to have a good old gurn about the government!
ok. time for my two cents worth.. *grins*
firstly by saying its the parents fault that tehy should make thier kids listen..
hmmm would be ok to say that ..IF we were allowed to make our children listen.
you are not even suppose to spank a child any more.. much less disiple them, they know their rights better than you do.
and there are so many 800 numbers for them to call and cry to if you take away thier toys, its pitiful.
it has gone to far in the opposite direction.
what do you do when you have a teenager that screams in your face, pushes you backwards and slags you off.. then turns around and smirks saying you canna do a thing you mank, cause if you touch me youll be in jail!
well where im from, my mama would have slapped me backwards.. and then my daddy.. well lets just say i wouldnt even want to think about that! *Grins*
anyway.. back to the subject itself..
i do not agree with putting them into military service against their will.
if they want to join then that is their choice.
but i do like the idea of working in the community..
and i do have a strict policy.. my boys will go to school as long as they are able.. and if they are clever enough.. then off to university.. no if ands or buts..
they can get a job once they are old enough and pay their way thru school.. just like we did.
if they struggle.. we will help them when they need it.. but i will never give my kids hand outs, for wants not needs.
what i would do with a teen like that is put their butt on the door step and say when you want to be good come back...No-one should ahve to put up with that from a teen,,,,
I have told mine that if they ever treated me like that i would put em on the floor then phone the cops ma self, but gladly i have their respect,for now anyway...will have to see in the future....
I personally have no idea and im not really interested. At 16 and 17 you should be studying and making something of your life, not doing nothing. Stick in at school and you can do what you want and i agree with you on the discipline thing too. If you want to reaply please reply in a private message because i dont want to go looking.:Razz
The_man_from_del_monte
27-Mar-07, 16:38
I blame the parents
I blame the children :rolleyes:
cuddlepop
27-Mar-07, 16:57
So we are going to train these kids to be professional neds.
Golach right respect for there elders is long gone, most of the ones that are not working, in employment or education like their lifestyle and would only give it up if there was something in it for themselves.:roll:
ŠAmethyst
27-Mar-07, 19:06
So we are going to train these kids to be professional neds.
Golach right respect for there elders is long gone, most of the ones that are not working, in employment or education like their lifestyle and would only give it up if there was something in it for themselves.:roll:
But there is something in it for themselves... better money than the dole!
cuddlepop
27-Mar-07, 20:54
But there is something in it for themselves... better money than the dole!
I agree it'll be better money but it wont be a hand out :eek: they'll have to get physically fit and be part of a stict regime that requires a great deal of discipline.:eek:
The_man_from_del_monte
27-Mar-07, 21:02
what do you do when you have a teenager that screams in your face, pushes you backwards and slags you off.. then turns around and smirks saying you canna do a thing you mank, cause if you touch me youll be in jail!
Take my belt off and give them a damned good old fashioned leathering.... that's what I'd do, jail or no jail, talk to me like that in "my" house be you young or old and you'll get one ass whipping you'll never forget...
So we have had, blame the parents, blame the schools and now blame the kids.
I have never seen so many negative attitudes towards kids,
" they will just give up "
"nothing in it for them "
Amethyst, exactly , better money than the dole!
No wonder half the kids re-act if folks are going to put them down, yes some deserve it, most dont!
Take your belt off and leather them, dont make me laugh !
respect your elders !! it works both ways !
Young folk of every decade get put down, the 80's punks,
The 70's bikers ? the 60's rockers ?
need i go on !
Give them a chance, give them respect, i reckon its tougher now being 16 or 17 then when i was that age, still does not detract from the youth culture problem we are facing, it needs to be addressed from many different angles, school,drugs, jobs, street culture, family life !
Respect is earned not given.
exactly, so how are they going to give you respect if you wont give them any !!
respect should be shown to all ! regardless of age, creed or colour !
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