View Full Version : Sold down the river...........
j4bberw0ck
24-Mar-07, 10:51
From today's "Telegraph":
Tony Blair will join Europe's leaders today to declare, amid great pomp and ceremony, that "we the citizens" are ready for an EU Constitution Mark II within two years.
A "Berlin declaration" is the centrepiece of a weekend of grand and lavish celebrations to mark the 50th anniversary of the EU's original Treaty of Rome.
Europe's heads of state will discuss a new mission statement for the EU after French and Dutch voters rejected the European Constitution in 2005.
A key part of the text, crafted by the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the current holder of the EU presidency, is a commitment to agreement and ratification of a new European treaty by the time of euro elections in June 2009.
Tomorrow, Miss Merkel, Mr Blair and other European leaders will discuss possible ways of resurrecting elements of the old constitution without triggering referendums and more defeats in the months ahead.
New Brussels powers to fight climate change and terrorism, a European foreign minister and an EU president are old constitution proposals expected to make a comeback.(my italics)
So, the old Constitution having been rejected, now we're to get a Constitution phrased in such a way that promises of referenda (principally, this involves Tony Blair who committed himself to a referendum before signing any Constitution on behalf of the UK) don't need to be kept. Once the Berlin Treaty is signed there is no way out for the UK or any other country, even if its citizens voted to withdraw in the future. Any country trying to withdraw would need to win a unanimous vote of all Member States agreeing to the withdrawal.
At the same time, our legal system and control of our Armed Forces will effectively pass to Europe and we will have no rights, for instance, to enable us to stop further immigration unilaterally.
Did anyone else notice the end of democracy as it rushed past us?
Did anyone else notice the end of democracy as it rushed past us?
Nope...missed that....but then I'm still bemused by the conjuring tricks in the budget! :eek:
I am sitting here, and feeling smug, I voted against joining the EU. Not going to say I told you so....but:lol:
DeHaviLand
24-Mar-07, 11:42
We are being rail roaded into a Federal State that no-one will be allowed to vote against.
Am I the only one who finds it strange that the one nation that so desperately wants a single state is the same nation that has tried the same thing twice before? Albeit the means are more peaceful this time, the end result will be the same.
And remember the words of Chancellor Kohl who insisted that once there was a common currency "the process of integration will be irreversible".
My grandfathers will be birling in their graves.
j4bberw0ck
24-Mar-07, 12:05
poor grammar, I should know better
:lol: Someone cares! Nice one..... my compliments:lol:
Someone cares! Nice one..... my compliments:lol:
I had two of them, "Poor Granmas" [lol]
DeHaviLand
25-Mar-07, 16:04
I'm amazed. I assume by the lack of comment that Orgers are quite happy to give up their democratic rights and become a part of this iniquitous new "Europe"
I wouldn't assume; some of us very deliberately don't discuss politics on forums. We vote or stand for election instead. Action instead of words.
j4bberw0ck
25-Mar-07, 16:42
I'd wondered, too.
I was listening to Radio 4 today while getting the bike ready for a trip away next week and there was a programme about the drafting of the Treaty of Rome, which started the whole EU thing in 1957. At the time, France was involved in war in Algeria and the government was hugely unpopular; de Gaulle, who loathed the idea of a European union, was waiting in the wings as the French elections approached. The six countries party to the Treaty were desperate to get it signed before de Gaulle was elected and wrecked the whole thing.
They'd spent two years negotiating the Treaty and getting it typed up in all the different languages; they agreed to meet in Rome on 25 March 1957 to sign it, and sent the copy off to the Italian Government printer - who of course didn't have it printed in time. The signing ceremony went ahead on schedule and with great flourish, the Treaty was exhibited to the world - but it was blank. They had the printer do a cover sheet and the signature page, and bound in a couple of hundred blank sheets; later when the printer had finished his work, they unbound it, inserted the printed sheets, and re-bound it. All this, of course, was done in the greatest secrecy.
Somehow, there's a wonderful irony in that - and how it shows what Europe is. The corruption has flourished from that early little deception to a level unparalleled except perhaps in the former Communist bloc:
.......there are agencies of the European Union which aren't answerable to the process of law (Europol, the European police force, which is specifically able to operate outside the laws of any country in the EU and so does not have to act legally - like in its detention of the likes of you and me, for instance, and EuroGendFor (http://www.eurogendfor.eu/), a paramilitary force designed for the express purpose of crushing civil unrest)
....... the Czech President (a Eurosceptic) refused to sign the Berlin Treaty this weekend because he said he couldn't sign something on which he hadn't been consulted. Angela Merkel, German Chancellor and EU President, therefore announced that she would sign the Treaty "on behalf of all the 27 Member States" - and did.
Unless someone can show me that I forgot, I have no recollection of having voted for Angela Merkel at any time in the past.
j4bberw0ck
25-Mar-07, 16:48
I wouldn't assume; some of us very deliberately don't discuss politics on forums. We vote or stand for election instead. Action instead of words.
It could equally be argued that some of us discuss, and vote, and even stand for election. The process of discussion is a useful one especially in a nation so apathetic that people don't discuss the issues which will shape their lives and the lives of their children. I'll assume for the time being that your "Action not words" wasn't intended to be deliberately patronising (though it could easily be interpreted that way), and content myself with pointing out that voting alone is a huge abrogation of responsibility, because your vote counts for precisely nothing in the world being formed around you.
If even one or two people think "Uh?" when reading political discussions and are prompted to go find out more about the subject, I would have said that's a good thing.
DeHaviLand
25-Mar-07, 17:26
I wouldn't assume; some of us very deliberately don't discuss politics on forums. We vote or stand for election instead. Action instead of words.
But you do discuss politics here.
I look forward to your nomination to the European Parliament.
DeHaviLand
25-Mar-07, 17:55
"Angela Merkel, German Chancellor and EU President, therefore announced that she would sign the Treaty "on behalf of all the 27 Member States" - and did."
Thats typical of how those at the forefront of the European movement think they can ride roughshod over the wishes and aspirations of others. Sound familiar? More and more, it just keeps conjuring up visions of 1936.
Now, some people can call me a cynic, but I dont remember voting for a Federal State. I dont recall ever being allowed to vote against one either.
But that wont matter, because no matter how you vote, European leaders will simply disregard your vote and do whatever they like. And thatt is the end of democracy
My Grandfathers are birling faster.
peter macdonald
25-Mar-07, 18:12
Since when has Westminster "democracy" been better At least Brussells have made the effort to stamp out corruption Sorry alledged corruption
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=CC04QZ0EU0AI3QFIQMGCFGGAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/25/nhons25.xml
I think it should also be remembered that it was the UK parliament that signed the papers to join the EU after a referendum Its prime minister at the time was Edward Heath who had been elected as such the period since has been the longest period of peace in western Europe as we know it
PM
Peter wrote
I think it should also be remembered that it was the UK parliament that signed the papers to join the EU after a referendum Its prime minister at the time was Edward Heath who had been elected as such the period since has been the longest period of peace in western Europe as we know it
Interesting point that Peter - what would happen if Scotland were to decide to leave the United Kingdom, would they have to apply for membership of the EU? Or would they already be considered part of it??
peter macdonald
25-Mar-07, 18:57
Scotsboy this a valid point ..If so will all the Scottish Anti EU voters clamour to join the SNP (who are pro EU !!!) I await Jabberwoks response with baited breath!!!!!
DeHaviLand
25-Mar-07, 19:19
Since when has Westminster "democracy" been better At least Brussells have made the effort to stamp out corruption Sorry alledged corruption
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=CC04QZ0EU0AI3QFIQMGCFGGAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/news/2007/03/25/nhons25.xml
I think it should also be remembered that it was the UK parliament that signed the papers to join the EU after a referendum Its prime minister at the time was Edward Heath who had been elected as such the period since has been the longest period of peace in western Europe as we know it
PM
Please remember Peter, we agreed to join what at that time was a common market. It was a trade agreement rather than a federal state. Show me where, in that agreement or in the referendum, any of us agreed to the surrender of our democratic rights.
The EU, as it has become, bears no resemblance at all to the EEC that we voted to join
j4bberw0ck
25-Mar-07, 19:31
I think it should also be remembered that it was the UK parliament that signed the papers to join the EU after a referendum Its prime minister at the time was Edward Heath who had been elected as such the period since has been the longest period of peace in western Europe as we know it
Yes. It was indeed Heath - and the referendum talked about a union which would give us free trade. At no point did the Heath referendum talk about political union, or the creation of a single Europe as a country, with all powers ceded to Brussels....... at no point did it suggest that once in, there'd be no way out.
will all the Scottish Anti EU voters clamour to join the SNP (who are pro EU !!!) I await Jabberwoks response with baited breath!!!!!
Ah, Peter. J4bberw0ck has no idea..... but if you're asking whether the average voter is so poorly informed and so incapable of making up their mind on a rational basis, then I'd have to say "yes, probably". It's not the voters who decide, anyway - it's the headlines in the Record or the Sun or the Mirror. Voters just do what they're told.
Doubters might think back to 1992 when the Conservatives were trailing Labour in the polls by a huge margin and the Sun ran a front page which said "If Kinnock wins will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights". Against all the polls, the Conservatives won - because voters voted the way The Sun told them. They weren't shy of it, either - after the election their headline was "IT WAS THE SUN WOT WON IT".
Which tells you all you need to know about Sun readers........ did you know, btw, that a reading age of 8 is sufficient to be able to read that paper from cover to cover? As the old joke says, Sun readers don't care who wins the election as long as she's got big, er, mammaries (actually, the real version is more blunt but I don't feel like getting banned today :lol: ).
peter macdonald
25-Mar-07, 19:45
http://europa.eu/scadplus/treaties/maastricht_en.htm
Did the democraticly elected government of John major not agree to this???
and Tony Blairs to this
http://www.unizar.es/euroconstitucion/Treaties/Treaty_Const.htm
this is democracy with its nettles and roses ...Unfortunatly you cant get one with out the other
Also what is the alternative??? the commonweath ...may have been in the days of the empire but if the truth be told the "white commonwealth as it was called were finding the UK a tad tiresome by the late 60s as a wee peek into the history books show Either that and be on same par as Puerto Rico a "commonweath" of the USA ??? The only reason that the two west European (not counting the Faroes and Aland)nations that are not in the EU is they can afford to stay out by virtue of their oil and financial sectors and small populations
The UK cannot do that ..now maybe Scotland could .......but thats another story
PM
We
j4bberw0ck
25-Mar-07, 20:08
Did the democraticly elected government of John major not agree to this???
Only kind of, Peter. It signed Maastricht, having negotiated an opt-out from monetary union, and the Social Chapter, which effectively blocked further integration.
and Tony Blairs to this
:lol: Getting careless........ yes, Blair signed it along with other Heads of State but the signature was meaningless without ratification from the Member states individually. That was when Blair promised the referendum, which was ditched after French and Dutch voters threw it out; neither Blair nor the EU wanted another defeat.
That's why they're meeting in Berlin this weekend; and what Merkel signed "on behalf of the Member States" was the watered down version of the Constitution. It was watered down and called a Treaty or Memorandum so those countries which had promised referenda wouldn't have to hold one.............
Devious and corrupt....
j4bberw0ck
25-Mar-07, 20:12
Also what is the alternative???
To have a free trade agreement with Europe (as do Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and a few others - the old EFTA arrangements) and sit here, 20 miles offshore, being the low tax portal through which the US and other countries channel their goods to Europe, taking a slice off the top of everything going through. It's what the UK is best at - trade - and the way it could work is exemplified by the City of London, which is the de facto European financial centre.
I don't think that Europe is going to be able to survive by uniting just in trade anymore. Nor do I think that a constitution that was rejected through referendum (especially by the very country that wrote it!!!) should be pushed through by hook or crook, by the way.
There has to be a middle term in which Europe can find a space to form a unit with some power in the world, rather than many small nations with no punch.
Pardon me for reacting to this statement by DeHaviland which I assumed was meant to provoke replies? :confused - "I assume by the lack of comment that Orgers are quite happy to give up their democratic rights and become a part of this iniquitous new "Europe" - I know some people can toss their opinions and facts and figures about quite cleverly on forums; I am not one of these people.
"I'll assume for the time being that your "Action not words" wasn't intended to be deliberately patronising (though it could easily be interpreted that way)" J4bberw0ck, I can assure you that in no way was I being patronising, it was merely a throwaway remark.
To elaborate, my pointing out that "some of us very deliberately don't discuss politics on forums" is very different from not discussing them at all.
I prefer discussions with those involved in politics, friends, work colleagues etc. I like to see the faces, hear the tones and emphasis of real conversation and to challenge statistics being thrown about rather than having to write everything down. If this appears to some to be a failing on my part, I do not intend to justify my preferences; it is my choice.
"and content myself with pointing out that voting alone is a huge abrogation of responsibility, because your vote counts for precisely nothing in the world being formed around you."
Voting alone is not a huge abrogation of responsibility. One can keep up with political news without discussing it on a forum. If I did not approve of political discussion on forums, I would have said so or not posted on the thread at all. I have absolutely no objections to any political discussions on any forum!
I make no apology for tending to be quite direct in my speech and written word; most of the time it works. ;)
The EU have a strange idea about Democracy as the Danes discovered over the Referendum in which they rejected joining the Euro Zone.
They were told that they got the answer to the Referendum wrong and to vote, vote and vote again until they had learned to get it right!
The French and the Dutch both rejected the EU Constitution (EU – The mistake was that we should have called it something other than a Constitution) the answer to that was, “They didn’t understand what they were voting about.” or “They were really voting about something else.” Conclusion? “We can ignore those votes because they don’t count!”
The intent at one time was to play the “Danish” Card again and send France and Holland back to vote again and get it right until, that is, it was realised that all the indications were that the “No” vote was likely to be even larger.
In the last two hundred years we have twice had a Europe under one Political Unit, once under Napoleon and again under Hitler. On both occasions the concept was rejected.
Trying to create the same situation by stealth rather than by force does not mean that it will be more readily accepted.
Those who are of the opinion that once it is done there can be no turning back need only look at what happened to the old Soviet Block once the vast majority of it’s peoples decided they no longer wished to be part of it.
As for the idea that being part of a United States of Europe is necessary for the Country’s Economy, Norway, Switzerland and even little Iceland have Economies which are in far better states than those of Countries in the EU.
j4bberw0ck
26-Mar-07, 08:51
J4bberw0ck, I can assure you that in no way was I being patronising, it was merely a throwaway remark.
Good!
Voting alone is not a huge abrogation of responsibility. One can keep up with political news without discussing it on a forum. Yes. But people who just lever themselves up off their spreading backsides once every 5 years to go put a cross on a piece of paper shouldn't be surprised when the delegative democracy in which we live takes no notice of what they want or thought they voted for. Voters are very much in the minority now anyway, and those who can't be bothered are sleepwalking towards a world in which they won't need to make any decisions because it'll all be done for them.
I have absolutely no objections to any political discussions on any forum!Phew! Now I can sleep nights.........:lol:
I am sitting here, and feeling smug, I voted against joining the EU. Not going to say I told you so....but:lol:
Snap, golach! :D
j4bberw0ck
27-Mar-07, 23:10
Norwegians, often cited as living in a country which "proves" Scotland could go it alone and be prosperous, are very happy without the EU..... (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/24/wrome224.xml)
Thanks to my Norwegian pal Trond, who sent me the link, and who never tires of pointing out the failings of the EU and Norway's cleverness in staying out..... :lol:
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