View Full Version : Which way would you vote in an in out poll on the E.U.
Which way would you vote in an IN OUT Referendum on the E.U?
what are your thoughts on Scotland becoming a member of the E.U. (in the event of a Yes Vote in the September Referendum) ?
Or would we (Scotland) be better off entering a Free Trade Agreement with the E.U without becoming a Full Member?
Yoda the flump
19-Jul-14, 18:25
Well this just goes to show how many closet Tories there actually are in Scotland.
You should check what the EU actually does for you, not listen to all the right wing propaganda coming from Conservative central.
Out.
Signed
Closet Tory :-)
Ian.
You should check what the EU actually does for you.........
Like what, and at what cost, exactly?
Ian.
Well this just goes to show how many closet Tories there actually are in Scotland.
You should check what the EU actually does for you, not listen to all the right wing propaganda coming from Conservative central.
Well stuff me, I have been called a Nat and now a closet Tory for asking Orgers opinions on various subjects.
Tell me Yoda, how does one learn without asking other people their opinions? I know what the E.U. does or does not do for me and I am not overly enamored with the results. I would prefer decisions on Scottish matters to be made here in Scotland.
what are your thoughts on Scotland becoming a member of the E.U. (in the event of a Yes Vote in the September Referendum) ?
Or would we (Scotland) be better off entering a Free Trade Agreement with the E.U without becoming a Full Member?
My thoughts are that, as a starting point for an independent Scotland, we should, after the referendum, negotiate terms for Scotland's membership of the EU, if only for the fact that it would save a lot of hassle for EU residents in Scotland and Scottish residents in EU countries, and for businesses who currently trade within the EU not to be pulled out without any forward planning.
The EU could be a better deal for an independent Scotland than it has been for Scotland as part of the Union, due to the way the UK has treated Scotland's resources as expendable to gain the UK some EU clout, (thinking fishing here) and dealt with the rebate and the distribution of the various payments received from the EU. It is as foolish to judge the efficacy of the EU regarding Scottish receipts/payments and obligations by assuming they will continue to be exactly the same as they are now, as part of the Union and under Westminster control, as it is for the OBR and IFS to assume, as they do, when they produce their forecasts for an independent Scottish economy, that an independent Scotland will not change or improve anything, but continue to spend its income on pursuing the same kind of policies currently undertaken by Westminster, including incurring the same bloated administration costs.
If, post independence, and after May 2016, it is found that the EU is not working to our satisfaction, then that would be the time to change tack, and consider the other options available, like EFTA, just as that would be the time to make a decision on stuff like a possible Scottish currency, republic/monarchy, in/out of NATO etc.
My personal opinion, however, is that, having voted NO in 1975 to remaining in the EU, and having seen little since, re the way the UK works with the EU, to change my mind, if I were to assume that a Scottish Government would continue to deal with the EU in the same manner as either the compliant NuLabour Governments did or the confrontational Tory Governments are doing, I'd prefer out of the EU and in EFTA, as I did in 1975.
My pragmatic opinion, though, is that it is more logical to start from the basis of where we are, which is in the EU, using the pound, in NATO etc...and see how it goes for us...as the one main beauty of independence is that WE can change what isn't working, and we won't have to wait for a majority in another country to get as hacked off as we are with the way things are going.
I remember the poll tax days, for example.....when, in Scotland, the test bed for the tax, despite the Can Pay, Won't Pay movement, the half a million plus facing warrant sales, the removal of thousands of voters from the voters roll, the peaceful demonstrations, the drastic reduction in Local Government receipts over the whole year it was in Scotland ahead of the rest of the UK etc, it took protests and riots in England, to get the Tory government to change its mind..because, in the UK context, Scotland is too unimportant to be noticed unless it is causing trouble for the Union by voting SNP and threatening to derail their gravy train.
Brilliantly put Oddquine.
orkneycadian
22-Jul-14, 21:44
My thoughts are that, as a starting point for an independent Scotland, we should, after the referendum, negotiate terms for Scotland's membership of the EU, if only for the fact that it would save a lot of hassle for EU residents in Scotland and Scottish residents in EU countries, and for businesses who currently trade within the EU not to be pulled out without any forward planning.
This is the exact reason why the terms should be laid out before the referendum, not after it.
The EU could be a better deal for an independent Scotland
Your judiscous use of italics for "could" has not gone un-noticed. I, after all, could be a lot better off on Saturday night after the National Lottery draw.
due to the way the UK has treated Scotland's resources as expendable to gain the UK some EU clout, (thinking fishing here) and dealt with the rebate and the distribution of the various payments received from the EU.
[lol] Who do you think has shafted Scotlands resources and indigenous industries more here? Westminster or Brussels?
If, post independence, and after May 2016, it is found that the EU is not working to our satisfaction, then that would be the time to change tack, and consider the other options available, like EFTA, just as that would be the time to make a decision on stuff like a possible Scottish currency, republic/monarchy, in/out of NATO etc.
That would be a very bad time indeed to find out we have made the wrong choices.... The one U turn the SNP would not be able to make then is to rejoin the UK.
My pragmatic opinion, though, is that it is more logical to start from the basis of where we are, which is in the EU, using the pound, in NATO etc...and see how it goes for us...as the one main beauty of independence is that WE can change what isn't working, and we won't have to wait for a majority in another country to get as hacked off as we are with the way things are going.
Oddly enough, staying in the UK satisfies 2 out of 3 of your criteria. The third (EU membership) is subject to referendum (the SNP after all like referendums) and even the recent EU Elections show there is increasing appetite for leaving the EU in Scotland.
This is the exact reason why the terms should be laid out before the referendum, not after it.
So kindly tell the UK government.they are the only ones who can do anything about clarifying the issue. But then, if they don't promote uncertainty, they don't give the likes of you anything to pretend to be uncertain about, do they.and if they don't have uncertainty, they have nothing. Sure as hell they don't have hope or optimism for our future in the Union!
Your judiscous use of italics for "could" has not gone un-noticed. I, after all, could be a lot better off on Saturday night after the National Lottery draw. Yep.....and you could stop whining about the way the Scottish Government spends money, given you are urging...what is it, two further referendums for the Islands to come off the Scottish budget, which is already stretched....or you could consider stuff like Scotland can't afford, in the Union, with pocket money, to dual the A9, but it can afford, in the Union, getting pocket money, to pay a £4+ billion share of 120 miles of HS2 so people not quite so far South as London, can get into London 20 minutes faster to work.
[lol] Who do you think has shafted Scotlands resources and indigenous industries more here? Westminster or Brussels?
That's easy.....Westminster. Brussels didn't close Scotland's industrial base. Brussels didn't reduce the employment in British shipbuilding from 32,000 in 1979 to 3,000 today. Brussels didn't close most of the Scottish mines. Brussels didn't employ Dr Beeching. It wasn't Brussels which took Scotland's fishing waters....it was Westminster who thought the livelihoods of Scottish fishermen were a lot less important than the rich in the Uk getting richer, and handed it over so they and their cronies would benefit. It isn't Brussels which distributes all the payments the UK receives from the EU among the UK Countries, or Brussels which made Westminster demand a rebate which reduced CAP income.or Brussels which said that the rebate belongs to the UK Treasury and isn't to be redistributed among the other areas to make up for shafting them on CAP. Yep......definitely Westminster.don't you think?
That would be a very bad time indeed to find out we have made the wrong choices.... The one U turn the SNP would not be able to make then is to rejoin the UK.
Erm.no.that is what independence is all about.....having the ability to adjust our policies to suit our circumstances, rather than have to adjust our circumstances to suit policies made in Westminster for the overheated south of England. Care to name one country which has gained independence from the UK and come crawling back......just one will do! Not denying it won't be easy, and likely harder if the UK does foot stamping and pouting...but then, if they do....that will just confirm they have never been our friends.just our controllers.
Oddly enough, staying in the UK satisfies 2 out of 3 of your criteria. The third (EU membership) is subject to referendum (the SNP after all like referendums) and even the recent EU Elections show there is increasing appetite for leaving the EU in Scotland.
No, it doesn't......which part of independence, our own voice and Scottish representatives speaking for and working for Scotland, and not for the UK and their own jobs and future House of Lords seats, are you having so much difficulty understanding. Increasing appetite, possibly, but by no means a majority...and no majority in Scotland and a majority in England means we have to do as we are told...as always.just as no majority of Scottish MPs voting in Westminster against things like the poll tax, bedroom tax, Trident renewal, welfare cuts etc means we get them anyway.
Chook a demus
23-Jul-14, 09:10
Well firstly I thought this thread was about the EU not independence but I guess some people are mildly OCD about the other subject.
A very good reason to leave the EU is why pay money into a club to then get less money back and also have a whole host of unnecessary rules and regulations foisted upon you let alone laws written by them which you have no chance of influencing.Free Trade I'm all for becoming a very small part of a super state in not in favour of.
The EU as a federal state will not work. Ever.
Trade deals is all that is required.
The EU is undemocratic, corrupt, fiscally catastrophic and no longer fit for purpose.
We need out ASAP.
orkneycadian
24-Jul-14, 08:46
So kindly tell the UK government.they are the only ones who can do anything about clarifying the issue. But then, if they don't promote uncertainty, they don't give the likes of you anything to pretend to be uncertain about, do they.and if they don't have uncertainty, they have nothing. Sure as hell they don't have hope or optimism for our future in the Union!
The UK have a proposal for an EU in/out referendum. If Scotland votes Yes in September, the people of Scotland would essentially forego that option, as the SNP seem to be hell bent on EU membership, irrespective of what the population wants.
Yep.....and you could stop whining about the way the Scottish Government spends money, given you are urging...what is it, two further referendums for the Islands to come off the Scottish budget, which is already stretched
I think the islands might manage to organise a referndum without all the carry on that the Yes camp seem to need to fuel their campaign, and at considerably less cost!
....it was Westminster who thought the livelihoods of Scottish fishermen were a lot less important than the rich in the Uk getting richer, and handed it over so they and their cronies would benefit. It isn't Brussels which distributes all the payments the UK receives from the EU among the UK Countries, or Brussels which made Westminster demand a rebate which reduced CAP income
And if the UK was not members of the EU, do you think the outcome would have been the same? Oh, and it is is Brussels who distributes the payments that the EU receives. An Independant Scoptland would soon find that out if they managed to gain membership of the EU. They would then not be able to blame Westminster, when they find that they do not get as much back from Brussels as they pay them.
Care to name one country which has gained independence from the UK and come crawling back......just one will do!
Thats right - Once the ties have been cut, there is no going back. Scotland take note.
No, it doesn't......which part of independence, our own voice and Scottish representatives speaking for and working for Scotland, and not for the UK and their own jobs and future House of Lords seats, are you having so much difficulty understanding. Increasing appetite, possibly, but by no means a majority...and no majority in Scotland and a majority in England means we have to do as we are told...as always.just as no majority of Scottish MPs voting in Westminster against things like the poll tax, bedroom tax, Trident renewal, welfare cuts etc means we get them anyway.
Its all very understandable, thank you. Where the difficulty in understanding comes from is how the SNP and Yes camp think that a single manifesto and vote can cover the many complex issues that they propose to deal with. The SNP feel that their election to government is sufficient mandate from the population to act upon such issues as Trident, EU membership and other issues. The UK are savvy enough to realise that things like EU Membership warrants a referendum all of its own
The UK have a proposal for an EU in/out referendum. If Scotland votes Yes in September, the people of Scotland would essentially forego that option, as the SNP seem to be hell bent on EU membership, irrespective of what the population wants.
Which part of "if the Scottish population, after independence, vote in the majority for a party which has an in/out of the EU referendum in their manifesto, there will be an in/out referendum, in which our opinions will prevail" do you not quite grasp? We will not be able to choose for ourselves by staying in the Union, as, regardless of how Scotland (or any other country in the UK votes), it is the voters in England who will make the decision for us.
The only way Scotland gets to choose, is if Scotland is independent, because we understand, even if you don't, that the SNP, in the event of a vote for Independence, will only be negotiating the starting point for our future, and not setting that future in stone forever.
I think the islands might manage to organise a referndum without all the carry on that the Yes camp seem to need to fuel their campaign, and at considerably less cost!
That is only to be expected. Duh!, It will obviously be held over a much smaller demographic, although, if it is to be Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles, over a more widely separated area mass. The administration cost of a referendum, without the "carry on", as you put it, would be much the same as for all elections, and the one which included the AVC referendum cost Scotland £3.12 a head for every vote cast. In the UK, overall, every vote cast cost £3.01.
And if the UK was not members of the EU, do you think the outcome would have been the same? Oh, and it is is Brussels who distributes the payments that the EU receives. An Independant Scoptland would soon find that out if they managed to gain membership of the EU. They would then not be able to blame Westminster, when they find that they do not get as much back from Brussels as they pay them.
No, it isn't Brussels which distributes all the moneys received by the UK to the recipients directly, because if it was, I'm sure they wouldn't have divided the convergence money due to Scotland, (because it was only received because Scotland has,currently, the third lowest per hectare rate in the EU and in the lowest in the UK) among all the other areas in the UK...would they? The money goes to Westminster, and Westminster divvies it up to suit. That's how being in control of everything works.
Thats right - Once the ties have been cut, there is no going back. Scotland take note.
Lol! So you haven't managed to find one country which got independence from the UK which has come crawling back to be readmitted to the fold!
Its all very understandable, thank you. Where the difficulty in understanding comes from is how the SNP and Yes camp think that a single manifesto and vote can cover the many complex issues that they propose to deal with. The SNP feel that their election to government is sufficient mandate from the population to act upon such issues as Trident, EU membership and other issues. The UK are savvy enough to realise that things like EU Membership warrants a referendum all of its own
Nope, afraid you still aren't getting it.......it is not about the SNP, however much Unionists are trying to personalise it, because they have no positive reasons for continuing the Union available, bar "we positively need the oil money and the export figures you provide to keep our credit rating". It is about democracy, and choice and taking responsibility for ourselves, and spending our money on the things we want, rather than the things the Westminster Government and the City of London and the big businesses want....like Trident.
It is about equality and fairness and not blaming immigrants, the disabled, the unemployed etc because Westminster encouraged casino banking, but continues to reward those responsible for the recession and continues to provide tax loopholes for big businesses to carry their profits through in their carpet bags.
We may not manage to meet all our aspirations in an independent Scotland, and it will take time to get it as good as it is likely to be, but sure as hell we will never meet them in a UK which panders to the aspirations of the city state of London and the South of England to the exclusion of every other part of the UK.
orkneycadian
24-Jul-14, 15:06
.....it is not about the SNP, however much Unionists are trying to personalise it,....
If the referendum debate is as apolitical as you state, how many SNP MP's, MSP's and MEP's can you list who are "No" people? If the referendum is truly apolitical, the odds are that around 50-60% of them should be "No" people.
If the referendum debate is as apolitical as you state, how many SNP MP's, MSP's and MEP's can you list who are "No" people? If the referendum is truly apolitical, the odds are that around 50-60% of them should be "No" people.
The clue would be in the name ork.neycadian: Scottish National Party
Chook a demus
25-Jul-14, 20:50
Well I'm not sure about anyone else but I'm starting to get tha feeling that tha yes camp are a bit like parrots and can't discuss any other subject....
Do you want out of the EU...just vote yes for an independent Scotland !....
would yae be wanting a steak pie with custard...just vote yes for an independent Scotland !
Would Polly like a cracker...just vote yes for an independent Scotland !
How's aboot beans on toast ....just vote yes for an independent Scotland !
Seems what ever ya ask you get the same answers.
Now tha does nae make them seem like the brightest shillings in tha bucket.
If the referendum debate is as apolitical as you state, how many SNP MP's, MSP's and MEP's can you list who are "No" people? If the referendum is truly apolitical, the odds are that around 50-60% of them should be "No" people.
None, I don't think.......but there are, after all, not enough SNP MPs, MSPs, SNP members or even past SNP voters to achieve a YES vote, so even if they all voted YES, we still wouldn't prevail.
If you are taking apolitical as meaning "politically neutral; without political attitudes, content, or bias." in the context of a referendum like this, then you shouldn't be expecting any MPs, MSPs and MEP's of any party to be apolitical. If you are taking apolitical as antipathy to political affiliations, then isn't that why the referendum is happening......because of the growing antipathy to the UK wide political parties, as epitomised by Westminster and their policies. And it is more than foolish to even consider that current MPs/MSPs/MEPs of any party would be saying in public now "I am voting YES/NO"....although none of us knows what they will do when it comes to putting their cross in the box.
I suspect you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Shouldn't the word be eclectic, anyway or some other word which implies broad-based....which the Yes campaign certainly is? I know past/current SNP voters, and even a few party members who intend, currently, at least, to vote NO.....and I know past/current members/voters from NuLabour, Tory, LibDem, Greens etc who intend to vote YES. That's a broad-based consensus for a YES result and independence......and even while there is no absolute certainty as to the policies of future governments, there is a broad-based consensus on the direction we want our country/society to go in future. .
Chook a demus
26-Jul-14, 09:14
None, I don't think.......but there are, after all, not enough SNP MPs, MSPs, SNP members or even past SNP voters to achieve a YES vote, so even if they all voted YES, we still wouldn't prevail. If you are taking apolitical as meaning "politically neutral; without political attitudes, content, or bias." in the context of a referendum like this, then you shouldn't be expecting any MPs, MSPs and MEP's of any party to be apolitical. If you are taking apolitical as antipathy to political affiliations, then isn't that why the referendum is happening......because of the growing antipathy to the UK wide political parties, as epitomised by Westminster and their policies. And it is more than foolish to even consider that current MPs/MSPs/MEPs of any party would be saying in public now "I am voting YES/NO"....although none of us knows what they will do when it comes to putting their cross in the box.I suspect you are arguing just for the sake of arguing.Shouldn't the word be eclectic, anyway or some other word which implies broad-based....which the Yes campaign certainly is? I know past/current SNP voters, and even a few party members who intend, currently, at least, to vote NO.....and I know past/current members/voters from NuLabour, Tory, LibDem, Greens etc who intend to vote YES. That's a broad-based consensus for a YES result and independence......and even while there is no absolute certainty as to the policies of future governments, there is a broad-based consensus on the direction we want our country/society to go in future. .
Still non the wiser as to what any of that has to do with the EU, it's all about the referendum which is what's been happening lately every thread gets infected.
So here's a quick piece to read .
Troll
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]
There are plenty o threads on tha referendum this is about voting on tha EU I'd vote out of the EU
Well firstly I thought this thread was about the EU not independence but I guess some people are mildly OCD about the other subject.
A very good reason to leave the EU is why pay money into a club to then get less money back and also have a whole host of unnecessary rules and regulations foisted upon you let alone laws written by them which you have no chance of influencing.Free Trade I'm all for becoming a very small part of a super state in not in favour of.
Hang on a minute, Scotland pays into the UK club and gets less out and has a load of rules and regulations foisted upon it. It seems you speak with fork tongue by claiming stuff about the EU then ignore that the same applies to Scotland in the UK.
An independent Scotland will increase its influence from 5 MEPs to 13 MEPs by virtue of its independent sovereignty..
If Scotland gets independence then we can have a referendum on the EU of our own if we choose to elect a EU sceptic party. Then it will be our decision and not one by UKIP/Tory heartlands from the rUK.
erniesspeedshop
01-Aug-14, 23:03
Out for me. There was a reason it was started but it is past it's sell by date.
Chook a demus
02-Aug-14, 08:46
If Scotland gets independence then we can have a referendum on the EU of our own if we choose to elect a EU sceptic party. Then it will be our decision and not one by UKIP/Tory heartlands from the rUK.Doesn't look that IF is going to happen,fortunately it looks like we will get a vote on the EU.
If Scotland gets independence .
"If" Scotland gets independence? Whats happened to your usual "When" Rheg? Are you having doubts now? [lol]
orkneycadian
02-Aug-14, 15:28
If the referendum debate is as apolitical as you state, how many SNP MP's, MSP's and MEP's can you list who are "No" people? If the referendum is truly apolitical, the odds are that around 50-60% of them should be "No" people.
None, I don't think.......but there are, after all, not enough SNP MPs, MSPs, SNP members or even past SNP voters to achieve a YES vote, so even if they all voted YES, we still wouldn't prevail.
Right, I think I am starting to get the hang of this....
If the Yes camp are asked a question about post indepenandt Scotland that they don't like, they can trot out the "...but you are mixing up independance with politics" line and that "independence is nothing to do with... [insert moot point]".
But it really comes down to the fact that independnece is very political. No voters and "no curious" are expected to believe that the referendum next month has got nothing to do with currency / EU membership / any other concern that voters may have, when it suits the Yes camp.
Do the Yes people really think the population is that stupid?
erniesspeedshop
05-Aug-14, 06:12
This is a really interesting poll. On the assumption that all voters reside in Scotland and it is representative of the country as well as the county, and I don't see even with such a small sample why it shouldn't be, it proves or at least indicates that the SNP have completely misread and are misrepresenting the mood of the people. One of the main foundations of the vote yes message is wrong.
orkneycadian
05-Aug-14, 07:15
Unfortunately, its information like this that the SNP are so blind to. The population tell them what they want, and they completely ignore it and do their own thing. They are too blinded by their dream of independence that they fail to see the real issues.
erniesspeedshop
07-Aug-14, 07:24
What you could do, if there's a yes vote and the islanders vote overwhelmingly no, is make representations to the UK to be allowed to remain. I'm sure with all the oil and mussels you would be very welcome and it would be a great boost for the rest of us who will have to campaign to be let back in.
neilsermk1
07-Aug-14, 12:42
Just remember that for the yes camp to triumph it is only necessary that the No voters do nothing. Do not assume this is a done deal get out and vote to remain part of the UK
orkneycadian
07-Aug-14, 18:20
What you could do, if there's a yes vote and the islanders vote overwhelmingly no, is make representations to the UK to be allowed to remain. I'm sure with all the oil and mussels you would be very welcome and it would be a great boost for the rest of us who will have to campaign to be let back in.
Tried that already....
http://www.shetnews.co.uk/newsbites/9028-referenda-petition
But the SNP are of the opinion that we are "Better Together". Something to do with trying to get their hands on our oil we suspect....
The boss of Nissan has recently said he would consider moving the factory out of the UK if there was an exit from the EU.
orkneycadian
08-Aug-14, 17:42
Whilst not wishing to be blasé about the numbers, 6,000 Nissan employees or 481,000 agricultural employees.....
Hmmm, a tough one.....
What should concern us is, Mr Salmond and his taking a yes vote as a mandate for him to apply for E.U. membership without a referendum from the Scottish electorate. He is very fond of his mandates but not too fond of listening to what people have to say.
Rheghead if we do get independence from Westminster UK then why would Scotland want to vote belong to another country from another part to run and regulate. That is why Government and UKIP wants to get out of the EU as it has so much red tape I amazed we have survived recession with EU. I wonder how Scotland would of dealt with recession if it was independence I bet the oil would of not helped It did not help America.
It will be interesting to see how the view of Europe changes after independence. I think that Scotland will develop a completely different relationship with the EU, less confrontational and maybe more "European" in attitude. More collaborative perhaps. I find the whole thing fascinating :)
What should concern us is, Mr Salmond and his taking a yes vote as a mandate for him to apply for E.U. membership without a referendum from the Scottish electorate. He is very fond of his mandates but not too fond of listening to what people have to say.
In 2011 we voted in the SNP with an overall majority. The SNP is a Europhile party so I guess they'll see it a mandate from the people of Scotland to stay in the EU. You only need a EU referendum when you see a need to change our EU status. Strangely enough, I haven't seen anybody say the indyref is also a referendum on EU status, but you'd think it should be if you go by Better Together scaremongering.
Again I say Why does Scotland want to separate from rest of UK and we are lead to believe Scotland does not want to be govern by Westminster dictating what Scotland can do and not and yet Scotland would be happy to be part of EU that also dictating like fishing etc and really does not care about Scotland one little bit. Remember lots of contracts are lost through other countries in EU Scotland has lost out on boat building what makes Scotland think by being on their own that every one will rush to Scotland and deal with them and not UK. It will be no different but worse for Scotland loosing out on contracts going in other parts of EU
Again I say Why does Scotland want to separate from rest of UK and we are lead to believe Scotland does not want to be govern by Westminster dictating what Scotland can do and not and yet Scotland would be happy to be part of EU that also dictating like fishing etc and really does not care about Scotland one little bit. Remember lots of contracts are lost through other countries in EU Scotland has lost out on boat building what makes Scotland think by being on their own that every one will rush to Scotland and deal with them and not UK. It will be no different but worse for Scotland loosing out on contracts going in other parts of EU
I say that we value independence in our lives so why don't we want independence for our country?
Every independent nation in the EU values its independence, that is why we do not have a federal European Union. With independence we will increase our representation in the EU from 5 MEPs to 13 MEPs.
An independent Scotland will always try to get the best deal for its fishery industry. David Cameron would throw away Scotland's fishery as a bargaining chip in exchange for his European priorities.
I say that we value independence in our lives so why don't we want independence for our country?
Every independent nation in the EU values its independence, that is why we do not have a federal European Union. With independence we will increase our representation in the EU from 5 MEPs to 13 MEPs.
An independent Scotland will always try to get the best deal for its fishery industry. David Cameron would throw away Scotland's fishery as a bargaining chip in exchange for his European priorities.
Does this include boat building industry that SNP said would protect and failed
Does this include boat building industry that SNP said would protect and failed
Do you think nationalisation is a good thing? and if you do, do you think the Scot government can afford to do it within the context of devolution?
Do you think nationalisation is a good thing? and if you do, do you think the Scot government can afford to do it within the context of devolution?
No I think belong to Union strengthen case that any contracts are rewarded through out the UK shared investment helps whole part of the UK including Scotland
No I think belong to Union strengthen case that any contracts are rewarded through out the UK shared investment helps whole part of the UK including Scotland
Well it wasn't the UK government that stepped in to save Ferguson, it was the Scottish government
Well it wasn't the UK government that stepped in to save Ferguson, it was the Scottish government
Yes under devloution. Why did it go to another country? rules regaltions set by the EU and today on the news Germany is now in trouble so is France This is why we need to deal with EU from outside zone. We have NHS beacause UK had set this out togther we all benfit from it. Again it does not take much to work out 5 million live in Scotland and 56 million live in the rest of the country all the money goes in one big pot and is shared you take that away and you will only have smaller amount which means some how Scottish Government will have to raise money. This is normally done by tax. based on the tax business and public pay now in Scotland will not be enougth to run Scotland as they want too so Tax will go up for every one and that is just the tip of the iceberg people who own land farmers etc massive changes are coming as well which will add more burden on people finance
Yes under devloution. Why did it go to another country? rules regaltions set by the EU and today on the news Germany is now in trouble so is France This is why we need to deal with EU from outside zone. We have NHS beacause UK had set this out togther we all benfit from it. Again it does not take much to work out 5 million live in Scotland and 56 million live in the rest of the country all the money goes in one big pot and is shared you take that away and you will only have smaller amount which means some how Scottish Government will have to raise money. This is normally done by tax. based on the tax business and public pay now in Scotland will not be enougth to run Scotland as they want too so Tax will go up for every one and that is just the tip of the iceberg people who own land farmers etc massive changes are coming as well which will add more burden on people finance
I don't understand your post. What goes where? Take what away?
Scotland is already putting more into the UK per capita than it gets back, add to that the savings made by not spending money on Trident replacement, maintenance, Westminster MPs and House of Lords that means we can start Day 1 of independence with increasing public spending or even cutting taxes.
I don't understand your post. What goes where? Take what away?
Scotland is already putting more into the UK per capita than it gets back, add to that the savings made by not spending money on Trident replacement, maintenance, Westminster MPs and House of Lords that means we can start Day 1 of independence with increasing public spending or even cutting taxes.
Sorry I thought I made it clear the money that UK makes and then shares out through the UK including Scotland. This would get smallers if we split.
How can Scotland be putting in more to Westminster? I am sorry 5 million live in Scotland from part of taxes comes from as not all would pay tax. 56 million live in the rest of the Country London being the biggest investment from most countries plus more is spent on public service in Scotland I would say Scotland gets it's fair share out of the pot.
How can Scotland be putting in more to Westminster? I am sorry 5 million live in Scotland from part of taxes comes from as not all would pay tax. 56 million live in the rest of the Country London being the biggest investment from most countries plus more is spent on public service in Scotland I would say Scotland gets it's fair share out of the pot.
Do you understand what 'per capita' means? I'll allow you to google if you are unsure.
Scout. Scotland generates more tax per head of the population than England does so in 2011/12, Scotland contributed an amount equivalent to £10,700 per person and compares to £9,000 per person in the UK as a whole.
Scotland is estimated to have paid more tax than in the UK as a whole every year since 1980/81, averaging over £1,350 a year higher over that period when adjusted for inflation.So Scotland contributes 9.9% of the tax take of the UK and receives 9.3% back. That shortfall is worth over £4 billion pounds.
This shows that while Scotland does not contribute more tax than England as a whole because England is bigger with more people - it does contribute more tax per head of population - more than it's share.
Remember also that a significant amount if money is spent on Scotland's behalf on things like Trident, HS2, House of Lords as Rheg has already said, and that Scotland only needs to raise enough money from its 5 million people to find 5 million people, not 65 million.
Those figures are absolutely out there for you to check if you like .
If you want to explore these figures more then WFI are holding sessions next Saturday 6th Sept in PPP In Wick and Pentland Hotel in Thurso. 10am Wick, 2pm Thurso. These are round the table discussions without guest speakers I think where you can hear from other people and discuss issues important to you. Everyone is welcome - yes, no and undecided. Maybe worth a trip I'm sure you would be very welcome
Scout. Scotland generates more tax per head of the population than England does so in 2011/12, Scotland contributed an amount equivalent to £10,700 per person and compares to £9,000 per person in the UK as a whole.
Scotland is estimated to have paid more tax than in the UK as a whole every year since 1980/81, averaging over £1,350 a year higher over that period when adjusted for inflation.So Scotland contributes 9.9% of the tax take of the UK and receives 9.3% back. That shortfall is worth over £4 billion pounds.
This shows that while Scotland does not contribute more tax than England as a whole because England is bigger with more people - it does contribute more tax per head of population - more than it's share.
Remember also that a significant amount if money is spent on Scotland's behalf on things like Trident, HS2, House of Lords as Rheg has already said, and that Scotland only needs to raise enough money from its 5 million people to find 5 million people, not 65 million.
Those figures are absolutely out there for you to check if you like .
If you want to explore these figures more then WFI are holding sessions next Saturday 6th Sept in PPP In Wick and Pentland Hotel in Thurso. 10am Wick, 2pm Thurso. These are round the table discussions without guest speakers I think where you can hear from other people and discuss issues important to you. Everyone is welcome - yes, no and undecided. Maybe worth a trip I'm sure you would be very welcome
I totally agree with what you have said and thank you. You have made it clear to what I was trying to say lol That is my point Scotland receives part of the whole of UK money collected togther. As you rightly said England directly pays more tax as there is a lot more people but it is shared out through out UK.
I would love to come along Thank you.
Squidge I have just spoken to YES SCOTLAND on the telephone and asked the following questions: Will Mr. Salmond take a YES vote as mandate to join the E.U. The person that I spoke to would not give a straight answer but replied: During the eighteen months negotiating period before the Scottish election (in event of a yes vote) he, Alex Salmond will negotiate Scotland`s membership of the E.U. When asked: Would the Scottish Electorate be given a referendum on E.U. membership, he replied "Not by the S.N.P.
So how can I vote yes to the question Should Scotland be an Independent Country when voting yes means that I will be voting to join the E.U. ? Where is the Independence in a Federal E.U.?
Squidge I have just spoken to YES SCOTLAND on the telephone and asked the following questions: Will Mr. Salmond take a YES vote as mandate to join the E.U. The person that I spoke to would not give a straight answer but replied: During the eighteen months negotiating period before the Scottish election (in event of a yes vote) he, Alex Salmond will negotiate Scotland`s membership of the E.U. When asked: Would the Scottish Electorate be given a referendum on E.U. membership, he replied "Not by the S.N.P.So how can I vote yes to the question Should Scotland be an Independent Country when voting yes means that I will be voting to join the E.U. ? Where is the Independence in a Federal E.U.?
Last edited by sam09 (http://forum.caithness.org/posthistory.php?p=1095676); 01-Sep-14 at 16:22. Reason: spelling
lol Sam- did you think you needed to ask twice :) The SNP has a stated aim of keeping Scotland in the EU. I have not seen any indication that membership of the EU is a constitutional commitment. This means it is SNP policy. So in an independent Scotland you would vote for the party in 2016 which offers the policy of leaving the EU. Just like in any election. Remember the referendum is not about party politics but about democracy.
But Sam09 if membership of the EU is your critical issue - The one issue which determines how you vote then you need to decide which system of government is more likely to meet your desire to leave Europe. However it's also worth considering whether Scotland will have its voice heard louder in the EU as part of the union or as an independent country because WM cannot guarantee the UK will leave the EU.
So what can you live with Sam? Scotland as part of the union in the EU or an Independent Scotland In the EU? The choice is up to you Sam09. I would not dream of telling you which way to vote . I decided based on what's important to me and that's what you should do. If that decision is No then that's fine :)
Squidge I do not see Scotland having Much independence as part of a federal E.U. By 2016 Alex Salmond will have negotiated for and have Scotland as a Full Member of the E.U.
I would in a perfect world like to have Scotland as an Independent Country with only a Trade Agreement with the E.U. I am sure this a view held by many in Scotland. With Alex Salmond taking a YES vote as a mandate for E.U. Membership I like many others feel disenfranchised.
Well Sam - that is your perogative. Alex Salmond says he isnt taking Scotland into the EU as it is a member already and will continue as such so there is not a requirement to have a referendum to "join" the EU. For all of us when it comes to the 2016 election we will have to look at the manifestos for the parties standing and choose whichever party most closely meets our own personal views. Yours will be likely to be a party which offers a referendum on EU membership. It is true however that the Conservative Party are saying they will offer a referendum on EU membership so if you think that is your most important thing then you have to vote no. As i said - neither administration can guarantee - even with a referendum - that the UK will leave the EU so when deciding how to vote you might want to think about which you can live with.
I dont agree with your views on Europe so Im not much use to you but it might help to talk to the SDA - Thats the Scottish Democratic Alliance http://scottishdemocraticalliance.org/ they agree also with your views on Europe but support Independence so might be able to talk you through the issues better than I can. A friend of mine is a member and Im sure would be happy to speak to you. PM me if you want to be put in touch. I understand that their intention is to put up candidates for election in an Independent Scotland.
At the end of the day though Sam - if you arent satisfied or you dont think that you will have choice to vote for what you want - ie - exit from Europe, or if you think that staying in the union better reflects your hopes aspirations and political standpoint then you are perfectly able to vote NO. Thats the beauty of the referendum - it is your democratic choice how you vote and thats it. As long as you have considered the options and made a decision based on what is important to you then no one can say you were wrong or you should have voted yes. You vote for what you think is best Sam and thats it.
Squidge I do not see Scotland having Much independence as part of a federal E.U. By 2016 Alex Salmond will have negotiated for and have Scotland as a Full Member of the E.U.
I would in a perfect world like to have Scotland as an Independent Country with only a Trade Agreement with the E.U. I am sure this a view held by many in Scotland. With Alex Salmond taking a YES vote as a mandate for E.U. Membership I like many others feel disenfranchised.
I tend to agree, sam09, but first things first. Let's get a YES and then do the politics which will get us nearer to our ideal. The vote on 18th September is the start of the journey, not the end of it.
It seems to me that we can't judge the benefits, or otherwise, of the EU based on how the UK deals with it, because Scotland has no input to any policies/decisions as Scotland, just as part of the UK, and voting patterns by UK MEPs are designed to benefit the UK, as is the distribution of EU cash by Westminster.
It may be that Scotland could do better for itself with its own voice in the EU, though that remains to be seen......however, if being in the EU doesn't work for us, we can always vote to leave it, or not, because we will be independent and can choose to do that for ourselves, rather than allow the rest of the UK to decide on our behalf.
Given it will take as long to get out of the EU than it will to stay in (think Greenland)....negotiating to stay in seems the most sensible option initially, just as using sterling in some manner does, keeping the monarchy does, and joining NATO does..but initially doesn't mean permanently set in stone...we will get to choose our own permanently, once we see what our initially brings.
Right now, the vote is just about whether we take responsibility for ourselves, and become an independent nation again...all the rest is up for change, if it is seen to be necessary post 2016, in a democratic Scotland, where our votes count to choose our own Government and we have a Parliament in which all members are working only for the benefit of Scotland and the good of our people, without one eye fixed on eventually catching the Union gravy train.
I tend to agree, sam09, but first things first. Let's get a YES and then do the politics which will get us nearer to our ideal. The vote on 18th September is the start of the journey, not the end of it.
It seems to me that we can't judge the benefits, or otherwise, of the EU based on how the UK deals with it, because Scotland has no input to any policies/decisions as Scotland, just as part of the UK, and voting patterns by UK MEPs are designed to benefit the UK, as is the distribution of EU cash by Westminster.
It may be that Scotland could do better for itself with its own voice in the EU, though that remains to be seen......however, if being in the EU doesn't work for us, we can always vote to leave it, or not, because we will be independent and can choose to do that for ourselves, rather than allow the rest of the UK to decide on our behalf.
Given it will take as long to get out of the EU than it will to stay in (think Greenland)....negotiating to stay in seems the most sensible option initially, just as using sterling in some manner does, keeping the monarchy does, and joining NATO does..but initially doesn't mean permanently set in stone...we will get to choose our own permanently, once we see what our initially brings.
Right now, the vote is just about whether we take responsibility for ourselves, and become an independent nation again...all the rest is up for change, if it is seen to be necessary post 2016, in a democratic Scotland, where our votes count to choose our own Government and we have a Parliament in which all members are working only for the benefit of Scotland and the good of our people, without one eye fixed on eventually catching the Union gravy train.
Can not believe what I am reading. You are saying if all vote Yes Alex will do a deal with EU to keep in and if not works we opted out if we do not like it wake up if that is the case why has this not happened in Northern Ireland if it is that easy to do. Are you also thinking if Scotland does not work out on it's own then all we need to do is asked to go back. Wake up in the real world.
Can not believe what I am reading. You are saying if all vote Yes Alex will do a deal with EU to keep in and if not works we opted out if we do not like it wake up if that is the case why has this not happened in Northern Ireland if it is that easy to do. Are you also thinking if Scotland does not work out on it's own then all we need to do is asked to go back. Wake up in the real world.
I agree with oddquine and squidge if after a Scottish election in 2016 the Government elected with the will of the Scottish electorate, could choose to hold a referendum on E.U. membership if that is what the majority decides. I fail to see any relevance to Northern Ireland Scout, the majority of Northern Ireland`s people want to remain as part of The U.K. and of The E.U. and that is on both sides of the religious and political divide.
Can not believe what I am reading. You are saying if all vote Yes Alex will do a deal with EU to keep in and if not works we opted out if we do not like it wake up if that is the case why has this not happened in Northern Ireland if it is that easy to do. Are you also thinking if Scotland does not work out on it's own then all we need to do is asked to go back. Wake up in the real world.
Lets see Scout - I have no idea what you are so unbeleiveing about - if Independent, Scotland will continue as a member of the EU. That is the plan, there is little argument about that now either. So thats the first step. Independence Yes? Scotland will be in the EU.
If YOU or Sam want Scotland to leave the EU then you will be able to choose which party you vote for in a general Election based on your view. Just as in the UK now, if you want to leave the EU you can choose to vote for either the Conservative Party who are promising a referendum on EU membership or For UKIP who have the aim of removing the UK from the EU.
I have no opinion on Northern Irelands view of membership of the EU and nor have i ever said that if it doesnt work we can ask to go back. I wouldnt imagine that for a moment. If we make mistakes in an Indy Scotland then we fix them. We will be able to do that because we will be making decisions for ourselves. Why on earth would we want to give that up?
I agree with oddquine and squidge if after a Scottish election in 2016 the Government elected with the will of the Scottish electorate, could choose to hold a referendum on E.U. membership if that is what the majority decides. I fail to see any relevance to Northern Ireland Scout, the majority of Northern Ireland`s people want to remain as part of The U.K. and of The E.U. and that is on both sides of the religious and political divide.
Why I had Drawn your attention to Northern Ireland they are in big trouble porperty market has collapsed lot to do with EU The only reason they have not departed Ireland Government has not called for one. This is one of the bigger issues I have with Westminster they say they will but so far we do not know when we will have a say.
Can not believe what I am reading. You are saying if all vote Yes Alex will do a deal with EU to keep in and if not works we opted out if we do not like it wake up if that is the case why has this not happened in Northern Ireland if it is that easy to do. Are you also thinking if Scotland does not work out on it's own then all we need to do is asked to go back. Wake up in the real world.
Lol! I just knew one of you would come in and interpret it to suit yourselves. Funnily enough, isn't that just what the Westminster Government intends to do.....try to work out a deal with the EU, and decide after that if the UK will stay in? How come it's a good idea for UKOK but not for Scotland?
Why has what not happened in NI? NI, isn't, afaik, an independent country yet.....or even aiming currently to be one.
If we vote YES, Scotland will work on its own.....and we won't be asking to rejoin the Union.
Nobody has ever said it was going to be easy, particularly in the first years, but what we would have is an opportunity to change our political ethos/emphasis. We could change things so all of us benefit, rather than just the richest of us, and we could have a written constitution in which we place some limits on the power of our elected representatives...so that we don't have to wait until they, or their party, feel they have behaved so badly that they must resign.....but we can decide they have behaved so badly that we can recall them. That and a budget which balances until we find our feet and earn a credit rating will do me just fine in an independent Scotland in the short term :)!
Lol! I just knew one of you would come in and interpret it to suit yourselves. Funnily enough, isn't that just what the Westminster Government intends to do.....try to work out a deal with the EU, and decide after that if the UK will stay in? How come it's a good idea for UKOK but not for Scotland?
Why has what not happened in NI? NI, isn't, afaik, an independent country yet.....or even aiming currently to be one.
If we vote YES, Scotland will work on its own.....and we won't be asking to rejoin the Union.
Nobody has ever said it was going to be easy, particularly in the first years, but what we would have is an opportunity to change our political ethos/emphasis. We could change things so all of us benefit, rather than just the richest of us, and we could have a written constitution in which we place some limits on the power of our elected representatives...so that we don't have to wait until they, or their party, feel they have behaved so badly that they must resign.....but we can decide they have behaved so badly that we can recall them. That and a budget which balances until we find our feet and earn a credit rating will do me just fine in an independent Scotland in the short term :)!
Sorry thought this was a open discussion :)
Sorry thought this was a open discussion :)
And what about the above makes you think it isn't?
And what about the above makes you think it isn't?
Lol! I just knew one of you would come in and interpret it to suit yourselves. :)
Joking aside. I think will take more then 1 year. I think to get all arguments in place if Yes vote gets through will take at least 3 years with all the arguments legal rangeling that will go on for a long time at huge cost to Scotland.
rob murray
08-Sep-14, 15:02
Joking aside. I think will take more then 1 year. I think to get all arguments in place if Yes vote gets through will take at least 3 years with all the arguments legal rangeling that will go on for a long time at huge cost to Scotland.
Fling in currenc issuesy,with 3 years wrangling to get into EU, no achievement of inflated oil targets, and youll see a large economic migration from Scotland, a net fall in busines inestments, markets looking at Scotland through a fog, investment monies going to where the sun is clearler...and yep Salmonella knows all this, but the high stakes gambler wont fold, mind you a straight yes / no vote played right into his hands but I bet he wishes there was a devo max third vote option !!! ...you could not make this up ! ANd what geniuses are going to pull us out of the hole come 2016 elections....a parliament / toon cooncil deviod of any real heavy weights
Fling in currenc issuesy,with 3 years wrangling to get into EU, no achievement of inflated oil targets, and youll see a large economic migration from Scotland, a net fall in busines inestments, markets looking at Scotland through a fog, investment monies going to where the sun is clearler...and yep Salmonella knows all this, but the high stakes gambler wont fold, mind you a straight yes / no vote played right into his hands but I bet he wishes there was a devo max third vote option !!! ...you could not make this up ! ANd what geniuses are going to pull us out of the hole come 2016 elections....a parliament / toon cooncil deviod of any real heavy weightsOh dear how disappointing Rob. You seem to be saying Vote no cos without WM Scotland will be nothing, have nothing and will not have anyone smart enough to run the country. Positive case for the union anyone?
rob murray
08-Sep-14, 16:11
Oh dear how disappointing Rob. You seem to be saying Vote no cos without WM Scotland will be nothing, have nothing and will not have anyone smart enough to run the country. Positive case for the union anyone?
Now look, stop the patronising : I am saying nothing of the sort : Personally I believe there should have been a third vote category more devo max, a half way house acceptablle to the sane amongst us : If you are so blinkered that you cannot see the immediate economic disruption caused by a yes majority ( doubtful because they are not actually ahead in the polls according to Prof John Curtice ) as 100% predicted by all finanical analysts, then stick to marbles. This is deadly serious or are you going to go with the off chance that things will work out very smoothly and quickly ? I think that you are superimposing your own, undeniable visionary social vision into the arguement, But markets destroy ..a fact... and come the day, if its a yes we will reap the wild wind and you can say ta ta to Salmons promised milk and honey..reality will bite, sorry it always does. Are you seriously telling me a bunch of jumped up toon cooncilors in central scotland will have the wit to clean the mess up..nah nah : very few in Westminster would be able to clean it up either ( as we all race to the bottom ) So for me, its no and for ever ( just in case that by passed you )
No Rob, I got it. And you just said it again. Scotland doesn't have anyone with the intellectual ability to run an independent country. Or does this mean something else?
Are you seriously telling me a bunch of jumped up toon cooncilors in central scotland will have the wit to clean the mess up..nah nah )It's not going to be utopia but neither is it going to turn us into a basket case.
rob murray
08-Sep-14, 16:31
No Rob, I got it. And you just said it again. Scotland doesn't have anyone with the intellectual ability to run an independent country. Or does this mean something else? It's not going to be utopia but neither is it going to turn us into a basket case.
Yep yer right....Put it this way I struggle to name more than 4 SNP msps, I can get 2 labour and 1 Lib Democrat..tells you something that ? STill there could well be a lot of Labour MP's looking for seats so we might end up with a little bit of sense, if we vote yes and they stand in the 2016 elections !
Ok so you see Labour as the saviour of us all. Ok then :) and if you can't name more than 7 MSPs then you might want to engage a bit more with the political system
rob murray
08-Sep-14, 16:48
Ok so you see Labour as the saviour of us all. Ok then :) and if you can't name more than 7 MSPs then you might want to engage a bit more with the political system
Andy is waving bye bye, bye bye : see you in la la land conme the inglorious day !
If there is a yes vote then maybe you will take my hand and work to achieve what we hope for Rob. I hope so
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