View Full Version : We are all Doomed!!
We are all Doomed!! :lol:
Vote No and we can expect more of David Cameron publically defending his tory Party donors who cheat us out of tax money.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/doomed_zps58395b8d.jpg
Or alternatively vote yes and get more of fatboy Eck donating OUR money to the Islamic Relief who have strong links to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas.
Or alternatively vote yes and get more of fatboy Eck donating OUR money to the Islamic Relief who have strong links to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas.
In that case I suggest you report Islamic Relief to the charity regulator for having links with extremist political groups. Your call...
Or alternatively vote yes and get more of fatboy Eck donating OUR money to the Islamic Relief who have strong links to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas.Yeah ... Says Israel and Russia, who's opinions are suspect on this particular issue surely.
Oh and a variety of extremist anti Islam groups operating in the bonkers world of on line "Muslim watch" activity. My favourites include "Bare Naked Islam" and "Jihad Watch". These have been described as Internet Hate sites - only take a look if you are planning to have a shower because you will feel decidedly grubby after dipping your toe into these vile, hate filled, pages of misdirection and lies.
Extremism exists in both Muslim and non Muslim society, both are dangerous and seriously disturbing and to Compare a charity like Islam relief to any of them is bordering on hysteria. Furthermore to suggest that a vote for independence would lead to an increase in support for Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is just a wee bit bonkers.
Yes = Doomed? I would go along with that.
It appears the Yes campaign has been funded to the tune of £4.5 Million by one Millionaire family. (They paid for that poster). They would, I should think, want to see some benefit to themselves for this money. Are they trying to buy Scotland? I wonder what the catch will be? :eek:
A further 6% swing to No in the latest YouGov pole which is reassuring.
The benefit they want to see for themselves would likely be an Independent Scotland!
Humerous Vegetable
13-May-14, 11:14
Yes = Doomed? I would go along with that.
It appears the Yes campaign has been funded to the tune of £4.5 Million by one Millionaire family. (They paid for that poster). They would, I should think, want to see some benefit to themselves for this money. Are they trying to buy Scotland? I wonder what the catch will be? :eek:
A further 6% swing to No in the latest YouGov pole which is reassuring.
There has been a disgusting amount of rhetoric about the Weirs from the No side of the debate, who appear to feel obliged to tell us how we should spend our own money. Unfortunately they don't appear to have the same compunction for telling the UK government to stop paying taxpayers' money towards supporting the Better Togethers, or to casting a critical eye over the Tory multi-millionare backing the Vote No For Borders, or whatever it's called.
Glad to see YouGov are still pole-dancing.
rob murray
13-May-14, 14:22
We are all Doomed!! :lol:
Vote No and we can expect more of David Cameron publically defending his tory Party donors who cheat us out of tax money.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/doomed_zps58395b8d.jpg
Note the 25% of EU's potential wind and tide energy. now .stop and rewind...potential / potential / potential / potential : could be potentially 25% of next to sod all : I know we 've wind power as wind turbines are evrywhere, but can anyone point me in the direction of actual commercial tidal energy devices / companies ie functioning and generating power, operating in Scotland today ie not hoping to be operatiional by 2020 etc ? Plenty of wind here !!!
mickeyebbels
13-May-14, 15:18
Doomed by the Tories may be but then we can vote them out at an election if fatboyeck gets his way it is forever.
Good to see Gary Barlow gets to keep his OBE despite being in a tax-avoidance scheme. David Cameron says he's a good boy because he does charity stuff.
Of course, there might not be the same need for charity if all these dodgers paid up!
In 2012, Cameron condemned comedian Jimmy Carr as "morally wrong" for seeking to avoid taxes.
However, he has been reluctant to intervene in the case of Barlow who is a prominent supporter of the Conservative party.
Rules for the rich ...
The only thing that surprises me with the Take That tax dodge is why are they paying Howard that much?
The benefit they want to see for themselves would likely be an Independent Scotland!
What they are likely to get is a place where their exports are less competitive from so I think they must have another agenda. BTW as you should know, the Better Together campaign is funded by donations from individuals. They where tapping me up only the other day! :lol:
What they are likely to get is a place where their exports are less competitive from so I think they must have another agenda. BTW as you should know, the Better Together campaign is funded by donations from individuals. They where tapping me up only the other day! :lol:
The Weirs are individuals too Ducati, wealthy ones and lucky ones, but still individuals . Not sure what you think they export - they live quietly and run a charitable foundation. I think that exports might be more of an issue for Ian Taylor - better Togethers largest donor he runs an oil company which pays money to Serbian paramilitaries and was guilty of backhanders to Saddam Hussains Iraq and who, when responding to journalists criticism, rather than write an open letter like the Weirs did last week, wrote threatening letters which promised his extremely expensive legal teams would close the sites down and sue the journalists for telling the truth. So what "other agenda" do you think that Ian Taylor has compared to the "other agenda" you think the Weirs have?
The difficulty in comparing funding for both campaigns is that Better Together is just as it is, one organisation, whereas the Yes Campaign is loads of smaller organisations all raising money to campaign for independence. As Wings pointed out "counting small donors only, the Yes movement has been raising over £46,000 a month from a maximum donor base of perhaps 2 million ordinary Scots (since, of course, many Scottish people oppose independence), while its Unionist counterpart hasn’t been able to manage anywhere close to half of that figure despite having perhaps 30 million* or more pro-Union Britons to call on."
Humerous Vegetable
14-May-14, 12:09
Yes = Doomed? I would go along with that.
:eek:
A further 6% swing to No in the latest YouGov pole which is reassuring.
Is this the Ipsos MORI "pole" which Westminster is apparently refusing to publish, after spending nearly £50,000 of taxpayers' money commissioning it, because it shows a surge for the Yes vote? Are you in the Tory cabinet then, because they appear to be the only taxpayers who have been let in on the secret.
The Weirs are individuals too Ducati, wealthy ones and lucky ones, but still individuals . Not sure what you think they export - they live quietly and run a charitable foundation. I think that exports might be more of an issue for Ian Taylor - better Togethers largest donor he runs an oil company which pays money to Serbian paramilitaries and was guilty of backhanders to Saddam Hussains Iraq and who, when responding to journalists criticism, rather than write an open letter like the Weirs did last week, wrote threatening letters which promised his extremely expensive legal teams would close the sites down and sue the journalists for telling the truth. So what "other agenda" do you think that Ian Taylor has compared to the "other agenda" you think the Weirs have?
The difficulty in comparing funding for both campaigns is that Better Together is just as it is, one organisation, whereas the Yes Campaign is loads of smaller organisations all raising money to campaign for independence. As Wings pointed out "counting small donors only, the Yes movement has been raising over £46,000 a month from a maximum donor base of perhaps 2 million ordinary Scots (since, of course, many Scottish people oppose independence), while its Unionist counterpart hasn’t been able to manage anywhere close to half of that figure despite having perhaps 30 million* or more pro-Union Britons to call on."
Oh, I thought it was the Weirs from the Weir Group. Still seems like an awful lot of money, I don't really see why either side needs to spend so much. Most people know the way they are voting already.
Is this the Ipsos MORI "pole" which Westminster is apparently refusing to publish, after spending nearly £50,000 of taxpayers' money commissioning it, because it shows a surge for the Yes vote? Are you in the Tory cabinet then, because they appear to be the only taxpayers who have been let in on the secret.
What in hell are you dribbling on about? What is difficult to understand about YouGov pole?
What in hell are you dribbling on about? What is difficult to understand about YouGov pole?
There is one which was commissioned by Westminster, cost the taxpayer nearly £50,000 and has yet to see the light of day....and which they refuse to make available.
As there has been no poll online lately (if ever) which shows a 6% swing to NO.....unless you know better and have a link to it...... then it is a reasonable assumption that you are privy to secret Westminster information and have had a sight of the hidden one.
Having said that, if it does have a 6% swing to NO, I'd be amazed if it hadn't been regurgitated all over the media ad nauseam by now.
There is one which was commissioned by Westminster, cost the taxpayer nearly £50,000 and has yet to see the light of day....and which they refuse to make available.
As there has been no poll online lately (if ever) which shows a 6% swing to NO.....unless you know better and have a link to it...... then it is a reasonable assumption that you are privy to secret Westminster information and have had a sight of the hidden one.
Having said that, if it does have a 6% swing to NO, I'd be amazed if it hadn't been regurgitated all over the media ad nauseam by now.
Hey I'm just the messenger. It was published in a newspaper, where they usually are. Doesn't matter anyway. You just have to decide will I be better off in or out of the UK. Constantly sniping at the yes or no campaign is completely pointless.
Oh, I thought it was the Weirs from the Weir Group.
Nope its the Weirs the Eurolottery winners :roll:
I'm beyond caring as to where the vote is going, I have never heard so much acrimony heaped on a national government, so much inaction by a devolved one and so little information that can be confirmed.
All I know is that I live in a country that has a great identity, is stunningly beautiful but is being destroyed even as I type this.
Nope its the Weirs the Eurolottery winners :roll:
Soo sorry! I don't follow the lottery. Presumably the eye roll is because you think I should? It is about middle of a very long list of things I don't give a crap about.
Trying to fund the breakup of the United Kingdom is hardly living quietly is it? In other places in the world, that would get them thrown in jail for a million years..or worse.:eek:
No Ducati I don't expect you to follow the lottery, I do however expect that if you are commenting on a news story that you have read and understood said news story. The referendum is a democratic process and will be decided by a free vote which is why no one is being thrown in jail for supporting independence.
No Ducati I don't expect you to follow the lottery, I do however expect that if you are commenting on a news story that you have read and understood said news story. The referendum is a democratic process and will be decided by a free vote which is why no one is being thrown in jail for supporting independence.
It wasn't a news story I got it from. And it only mentioned a millionaire family. Someone else named the Weirs.
However those of you who say "Waley waley, we have no democracy" should reflect on what would happen to them if they lived in say Iran, or some such place.
We have a democracy which is why we have a referendum.
We have a democracy which is why we have a referendum.
Glad you agree. :D
orkneycadian
15-May-14, 14:03
Yes = Doomed? I would go along with that.
It appears the Yes campaign has been funded to the tune of £4.5 Million by one Millionaire family. (They paid for that poster). They would, I should think, want to see some benefit to themselves for this money. Are they trying to buy Scotland? I wonder what the catch will be? :eek:
A further 6% swing to No in the latest YouGov pole which is reassuring.
I get the feeling that the SNP ascribe to the Russian style of elections, referenda and democracy. In a recent consultation, an overwhelming 87% of the consultees told the Scottish Government they did not want airgun licencing. The SNP put it through today anyway.
Democracy? Nope - Never in a month of Sundays.
No doubt a few on here will support the idea, and thats fair enough, thats their opinion and entitlement. But they are in the 13% rather than the 87%
It paints a grim picture of what the dictatorship will be like if we (collectively) are daft enough to vote Yes in September. That is, assuming that our referendum is actually done legitimately and observed? Unlike the above mentioned consultation, which has been ignored! :eek:
How many respondees in a SNP consultation need to agree before the SNP take notice of what the population wants? 90%? 100%? Or will they just ignore the wishes of the population anyway?
Now, anyone know who is the cheapest removal company to use for a house move to Crimea?
Humerous Vegetable
15-May-14, 15:06
Yes, here you are http://www.loadup.couk/europe-removals/ukraine/index.htm Don't forget to take your wee airgun with you. The SNP have absolutely nothing to do with the referendum debate, as most of us know, except that they gave us the opportunity to hold the referendum by winning the majority of votes for Holyrood in the last election. We don't have to be "daft enough" to vote for a dictatorship - we already have Westminster (one Tory and a couple of Lib-Dems up here) telling us what to do.
orkneycadian
15-May-14, 17:37
The SNP have absolutely nothing to do with the referendum debate, as most of us know, except that they gave us the opportunity to hold the referendum by winning the majority of votes for Holyrood in the last election.
I guess then that the "Yes" / "No" support split within the SNP itself should mirror what the rest of the population think? So, without looking up todays polls, I should at least be able to find a good chunk of SNP members and MSP's who are advocating no?
" If you deny your country the right to be recognized as a nation with its own government like all the others, you diminish your country, no matter how much you love it."
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/05/15/tough-love/
Humerous Vegetable
15-May-14, 18:10
How do you work that one out? The SNP has never claimed that it will be the government after independence, because there will be a full and fair election after independence of the new Scottish parliament. You can vote into power whatever party meets your needs, Tory, Labour, Libdem, Green, Monster Raving Looney....whatever. The point being, as it always has been, that we, the people of Scotland, can vote for politicians who will actually represent our own views, instead of watching our votes going down the drain of the politics of the SE of England. If you can name anybody in Scotland who voted for a Tory/Lib-Dem coalition, I will give you a gold star and free access to my wine cellar.
How do you work that one out? The SNP has never claimed that it will be the government after independence, because there will be a full and fair election after independence of the new Scottish parliament. You can vote into power whatever party meets your needs, Tory, Labour, Libdem, Green, Monster Raving Looney....whatever. The point being, as it always has been, that we, the people of Scotland, can vote for politicians who will actually represent our own views, instead of watching our votes going down the drain of the politics of the SE of England. If you can name anybody in Scotland who voted for a Tory/Lib-Dem coalition, I will give you a gold star and free access to my wine cellar.
Nobody in the whole of the UK voted for a Tory/Libdem coalition. Are you actually an idiot or are you just being obtuse? You are about as funny as rabies in a dog's home, I know that. :Razz I suspect you are about 8 years old or that is how you act anyway.
orkneycadian
15-May-14, 20:35
How do you work that one out? The SNP has never claimed that it will be the government after independence, because there will be a full and fair election after independence of the new Scottish parliament. You can vote into power whatever party meets your needs, Tory, Labour, Libdem, Green, Monster Raving Looney....whatever. The point being, as it always has been, that we, the people of Scotland, can vote for politicians who will actually represent our own views, instead of watching our votes going down the drain of the politics of the SE of England. If you can name anybody in Scotland who voted for a Tory/Lib-Dem coalition, I will give you a gold star and free access to my wine cellar.
Well, a lot more of us in the Peoples Republic of Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles voted for that than we did the SNP!
Scottish Election wise, in the last 4 elections for the Scottish Government, Orkney and Shetland have voted 100% lib dem. But we have not got the government we voted for. Instead, we get a Weegie orientated government with a focus on Central Belt issues. In the last Scottish government elections, the SNP got just 18.1% of the vote in Orkney and Shetland. But yet, we have a government, and a referendum, foisted upon us that we didn't vote for.
UK election wise, we fare a bit better, in that at least we have some of the party we voted for representing us in Westminster. They might be David Camerons sock puppets, but they are still the party that most people in Orkney and Shetland voted for. In the last UK general election, Orkney and Shetland put 62% of their votes to Lib Dem, and just 10.6% to SNP.
We now see the evidence of this in Scotland, with policies coming out that are geared towards the big cities of Central Belt Scotland, at the expense of the majority of the rest of the country. All from a government that we did not vote for. :(
" If you deny your country the right to be recognized as a nation with its own government like all the others, you diminish your country, no matter how much you love it."
http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/05/15/tough-love/
I posted a comment on that site " Your comment is awaiting moderation." :lol: All the commentors are very 'Cry Freedom' aren't they?
Well, a lot more of us in the Peoples Republic of Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles voted for that than we did the SNP!
Scottish Election wise, in the last 4 elections for the Scottish Government, Orkney and Shetland have voted 100% lib dem. But we have not got the government we voted for. Instead, we get a Weegie orientated government with a focus on Central Belt issues. In the last Scottish government elections, the SNP got just 18.1% of the vote in Orkney and Shetland. But yet, we have a government, and a referendum, foisted upon us that we didn't vote for.
UK election wise, we fare a bit better, in that at least we have some of the party we voted for representing us in Westminster. They might be David Camerons sock puppets, but they are still the party that most people in Orkney and Shetland voted for. In the last UK general election, Orkney and Shetland put 62% of their votes to Lib Dem, and just 10.6% to SNP.
We now see the evidence of this in Scotland, with policies coming out that are geared towards the big cities of Central Belt Scotland, at the expense of the majority of the rest of the country. All from a government that we did not vote for. :(
Then the solution is obvious..vote for Independence for Scotland.......and then have a referendum in the Islands to vote for independence from Scotland! :Razz
Then the solution is obvious..vote for Independence for Scotland.......and then have a referendum in the Islands to vote for independence from Scotland! :Razz
No, the solution is to moan about not being represented for the next fifty years. Then have a referendum, moan all through the run up and then, presumably, er moan about the outcome. :lol:
I posted a comment on that site " Your comment is awaiting moderation." :lol: All the commentors are very 'Cry Freedom' aren't they?
Ha! Typical of these sites. Same message is still up, yet other more recent posts have appeared. They don't want to listen to reason. Who is Derek Bateman anyway? Doesn't sound very Scots to me.:mad:
orkneycadian
16-May-14, 08:09
Then the solution is obvious..vote for Independence for Scotland.......and then have a referendum in the Islands to vote for independence from Scotland! :Razz
Well, now you come to mention it, that very thing has been proposed - To be held 1 week after the Scottish Independence referendum. However, it appears to be being ignored by the Scottish Government, who appear to be, rather bizarrely, of the opinion that we are "Better Together".
It again is giving the impression that the SNP dictatorship only do what they want to do, and do not follow the wishes of the population. If they are brash about doing that before any independence referendum, then heaven forbid what they might be like after.
Has the Scottish government done nothing at all for the Northern Isles then Orkneycadian?
Well, a lot more of us in the Peoples Republic of Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles voted for that than we did the SNP!
Scottish Election wise, in the last 4 elections for the Scottish Government, Orkney and Shetland have voted 100% lib dem. But we have not got the government we voted for. Instead, we get a Weegie orientated government with a focus on Central Belt issues. In the last Scottish government elections, the SNP got just 18.1% of the vote in Orkney and Shetland. But yet, we have a government, and a referendum, foisted upon us that we didn't vote for.
UK election wise, we fare a bit better, in that at least we have some of the party we voted for representing us in Westminster. They might be David Camerons sock puppets, but they are still the party that most people in Orkney and Shetland voted for. In the last UK general election, Orkney and Shetland put 62% of their votes to Lib Dem, and just 10.6% to SNP.
We now see the evidence of this in Scotland, with policies coming out that are geared towards the big cities of Central Belt Scotland, at the expense of the majority of the rest of the country. All from a government that we did not vote for. :(
Excellent post.
If conservatives/Lib Dems in power in westminster is a valid reason for Scotland leaving the UK, surely the SNP being in power in Holyrood is a reason for the Northern Isles to leave Scotland?
The "Westminster has been stealing Scotlands oil for years" cry could easily be replaced by "Holyrood stealing Shetlands oil".
Where does separitism stop?
Humerous Vegetable
16-May-14, 10:51
Well, a lot more of us in the Peoples Republic of Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles voted for that than we did the SNP!
Scottish Election wise, in the last 4 elections for the Scottish Government, Orkney and Shetland have voted 100% lib dem. But we have not got the government we voted for. Instead, we get a Weegie orientated government with a focus on Central Belt issues. In the last Scottish government elections, the SNP got just 18.1% of the vote in Orkney and Shetland. But yet, we have a government, and a referendum, foisted upon us that we didn't vote for.
UK election wise, we fare a bit better, in that at least we have some of the party we voted for representing us in Westminster. They might be David Camerons sock puppets, but they are still the party that most people in Orkney and Shetland voted for. In the last UK general election, Orkney and Shetland put 62% of their votes to Lib Dem, and just 10.6% to SNP.
We now see the evidence of this in Scotland, with policies coming out that are geared towards the big cities of Central Belt Scotland, at the expense of the majority of the rest of the country. All from a government that we did not vote for. :(
You kind of took my breath away with that one....100% of the Orcadian electorate voted LibDem? In fact 35.7% voted for what you called the sock puppets. I'm sure your friends and neighbours will be thrilled to know you hold such a high opinion of their political acuity.
So, Holyrood has done absolutely nothing for Orkney - no new grammar school in Kirkwall, no free prescriptions, no free social and personal care for Orcadians? I honestly give up. At least my gold star and my last bottle of Merlot are safe.
orkneycadian
16-May-14, 22:59
Maybe I didn't explain that too well....
In the last 4 UK general elections, Orkney and Shetland have, in 100% of the elections, voted in a Lib-Dem candidate as their MP
In the last 4 Scottish Elections, Orkney and Shetland have both, in 100% of elections, voted in a Lib-Dem candidate as their MSP.
I only chose the last 4, as that was as far back as it showed on the Wikipedia page. In reality, you can go back as far as 1950 for the UK elections and Orkney and Shetland have constantly voted in Lib-Dem candidates. For a whopping 60 plus years on the trot.
orkneycadian
16-May-14, 23:07
Where does separitism stop?
Where you want it to. The Yes camp, despite being great supporters of independence, are very lukewarm to the suggestion of independence for Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles. In fact, they seem to suggest we would be "Better Together". As you rightly point out, they are outraged at England stealing Scotlands oil, but seem to have no problem with pinning the economy of the Central Belt on the Islands Oil. And they have no problem in passing legislation to deal with issues that affect the unemployed drug addicts in Easterhouse, at the expense of the people who live and make a living in the rest of, and rural parts of Scotland.
It seems very much like this is all being driven by the CBNP, the Central Belt National Party for their own needs.
What legislation are you talking about here Orkneycadian
It seems very much like this is all being driven by the CBNP, the Central Belt National Party for their own needs.
I've never heard of them, do they have a website?
Do we have enough independence supporters from the other parties – Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish Lib Dems and whoever else throws their hat into the ring, to successfully run an independent Scotland, should the SNP win the referendum but lose the first general election after independence? Or, will there be an immediate campaign to return us to the union?
Humerous Vegetable
18-May-14, 17:12
Do we have enough independence supporters from the other parties – Scottish Conservatives, Scottish Labour, Scottish Lib Dems and whoever else throws their hat into the ring, to successfully run an independent Scotland, should the SNP win the referendum but lose the first general election after independence? Or, will there be an immediate campaign to return us to the union?
No, I would imagine that once Scottish Labour and the LibDems throw off the shackles of their national executives, and stop trying to do anything they can to keep their MPs and members of the House of Lords troughing in the taxpayers' pockets, they will suddenly discover a new enthusiasm for independence. The Greens already support it, but who knows what the Scottish Tory and Unionist party will find to say.
I agree Hum Vee, I think that after independence, the Scottish Labour party can be true to themselves and go back to being a real socialist party again without having to tow the nulabour style.
orkneycadian
31-May-14, 00:18
What legislation are you talking about here Orkneycadian
In this case, the air gun legislation that the Scottish Government recently passed.
Looking some more into the statistics, here are the details of airgun injuries in Scotland up to 2009
Air Weapon Injuries in Scotland
Year Total Injuries
1998-99 217
1999-00 233
2000-01 268
2001-02 162
2002-03 149
2003-04 100
2004-05 96
2005-06 121
2006-07 145
2007-08 94
2008-09 66
(source = http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/ca/file/Lords_Second_Reading_-_Airguns.pdf)
Meanwhile, I see from http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444606/Three-dog-attacks-every-day-in-Scotland that attacks by "divil dugs" in Scotland now number 3 a day.
66 injuries a year on a downward trend vs 1,012 injuries a year on an upward trend. And the wonderous Scottish Government think that legislating to protect the 66 has a higher priority than the 1,012. :roll:
They really have no idea.
In this case, the air gun legislation that the Scottish Government recently passed.
Looking some more into the statistics, here are the details of airgun injuries in Scotland up to 2009
Air Weapon Injuries in Scotland
Year Total Injuries
1998-99 217
1999-00 233
2000-01 268
2001-02 162
2002-03 149
2003-04 100
2004-05 96
2005-06 121
2006-07 145
2007-08 94
2008-09 66
(source = http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/ca/file/Lords_Second_Reading_-_Airguns.pdf)
Meanwhile, I see from http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444606/Three-dog-attacks-every-day-in-Scotland that attacks by "divil dugs" in Scotland now number 3 a day.
66 injuries a year on a downward trend vs 1,012 injuries a year on an upward trend. And the wonderous Scottish Government think that legislating to protect the 66 has a higher priority than the 1,012. :roll:
They really have no idea.
Oh dont mention devil dogs, there are no such thing just bad owners, yadda yadda yadda
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