View Full Version : Response from Scottish Government re my question put to them.
Southern-Gal
05-Mar-14, 19:17
Thought some of you might find this interesting :)
Basically I asked what it would mean to my family and I if the vote is a yes. Explained that we are an English family living and working in Scotland and that I am worried.
Here is the response in its' entirety.
Dear Ms Mather,
Thank you for your e-mail of 8 February to the referendum 2014 website regarding your families future in an independent Scotland. Please accept my apologies for the delay in response, which was caused by the receipt of a large number of enquiries.
It is the policy of the current Scottish Government that an independent Scotland will have an inclusive model of citizenship. The Scottish Government’s proposal is that on day one of independence, British citizens who are habitually resident in Scotland and British citizens born in Scotland but residing elsewhere, will automatically be considered Scottish citizens.
Scottish citizens will have the right to hold a Scottish passport and will be able to apply for one on day one of independence, although, as in most countries, there will be no requirement to hold one. The Scottish Government plans to recognise valid UK passports until they expire. This Government will also not place any barriers in the way of Scottish citizens holding dual or multiple nationalities. British nationality rules will be a matter for the rest of the UK to decide, however the UK already provides for dual citizenship with virtually every other country in the world and the UK Government recently confirmed in their paper Scotland Analysis: Borders and Citizenship that there would likely be ‘no barriers’ to joint citizenship with an independent Scotland.
Scottish citizens will be European Union (EU) citizens with all the benefits that brings, such as the right to free movement to live, study and work in all European Economic Area (EEA) countries and benefit from the healthcare and social security systems. EEA national migrants, including UK citizens, who move to Scotland to exercise their right to free movement, have a legitimate reason to be here and will always be welcomed - not only for their contribution to our economy but also the vibrancy and diversity they bring to our nation.
An independent Scotland will operate overseas offices which will provide support and protection for Scots abroad, just as it is currently provided by the UK. In addition, an EU citizen has the right to request the consular or diplomatic protection of any other EU member state including the UK.
Full details of the Scottish Government’s proposals for independence are set out in the Scottish Government’s White Paper Scotland’s Future: Your Guide to an Independent Scotland. Chapter 7 sets out proposals for citizenship, passports and immigration. There is also a Q&A section in Part 5 (Q&A 372 – 387 for citizenship and passports), which will hopefully answer any other questions that you may have. You can access Scotland’s Future, which is published on the Scottish Government website here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348 (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348).
I hope this is helpful in understanding the policy of the current Scottish Government with regards to the information you have supplied in your e-mail. However, I should clarify that any arrangements for independence following the referendum on Scottish Independence depend on relevant legislation brought forward in this area. Any legislation could be subject to consideration, enactment or approval in parliament. There may also be changes or additions to the current policy intention.
Kind regards,
Nickola Paul
Make of that what you will. Then explain it to me pretty please :)
In a nutshell..don't ask daft questions..what difference to your family did you think Scotland's independence might make to you?
Did you think you might be asked to leave Scotland?
Interesting!
I asked both the SNP & the Scottish Govt a couple of pointed questions quite some time ago, the SNP never bothered to reply and ScotGov referred me to Westminster!
Go figure.
Interesting response?? You'll be able to have a Scottish passport & dual nationality if you wanted as you are English. Surely if Scotland is allowed to stay in the EU then those rules apply, typical skirting around your real question. I don't think they have an answer, no one has. At least they responded.
Had What do you think is the real question? It seems a pretty comprehensive answer
"There may also be changes or additions to the current policy intention" - this little bit at the end would be the worry, basically "these are our intentions but who knows what'll happen?"
Southern-Gal
05-Mar-14, 22:07
In a nutshell..don't ask daft questions..what difference to your family did you think Scotland's independence might make to you?
Did you think you might be asked to leave Scotland?
Not a daft question at all.
If I was considered an immigrant would I get any help if I needed it? Would I need private health insurance?
I may not be asked to leave but it could be made that I chose to.
On another note if after a yes vote all UK residents in Scotland would be allowed to apply for a Scottish passport would that be enough to make a nationalist Scot vote no?
Scottish citizens will be European Union (EU) citizens with all the benefits that brings, such as the right to free movement to live, study and work in all European Economic Area (EEA) countries and benefit from the healthcare and social security systems.
Surely that would only be the case if we apply for membership of the EU and are accepted?
I'm also quite disappointed at the "your families" grammatical howler. Maybe in an independent Scotland we could get a better education and guarantee that our public servants can spell.
Southern-Gal
05-Mar-14, 22:42
Surely that would only be the case if we apply for membership of the EU and are accepted?
Yes I agree, it seems they are taking for granted some fairly important obstacles!
And if Scotland is not accepted then all the non Scottish born people living in Scotland would be wondering how and if it affected them. And if Scotland was not part of Europe any more all of the native Scots living elsewhere in Europe would maybe have to go home as they would not be part of Europe any longer?
Green_not_greed
05-Mar-14, 23:07
Interesting!
I asked both the SNP & the Scottish Govt a couple of pointed questions quite some time ago, the SNP never bothered to reply and ScotGov referred me to Westminster!
Go figure.
I had exactly the same response.
Go figure indeed.
Ignore selfish self interest and just say NO !
If Scotland was not accepted into the EU, you are and would remain a British Citizen and therefore entitled to all the help and support outlined in the letter until Scotland IS accepted into the EU, nothing taken for granted. Southern-gal where have you got the idea that you would be treated as an "immigrant" from? Why would a nationalist Scot vote "no" because anyone living in Scotland can apply for a passport? The letter, everything in the white paper, the whole independence debate has been around people who live in Scotland being the ones to decide what happens, the people living in Scotland being welcome wherever they are from. There is a YES meeting tomorrow night in Thurso details are a bit further down the board. Why font you go along and chat about it? It should help to put your mind at rest.
Squidge ,your statement that if we were not accepted into the EU we would retain our British citizenship I find rather confusing, I thought after indy that that was the whole point - that we would no longer be British and only be Scottish
There is a YES meeting tomorrow night in Thurso details are a bit further down the board. Why font you go along and chat about it? It should help to put your mind at rest.Why should Southern Gal attend the said meeting? It is a YES meeting, and will be one sided, and what she hears may not be right.
No spurtle, the whole point is that the money which is paid in Scotland by the people of Scotland will be spent by a Scottish Government on priorities decided by us. The Scottish voter. Whether that voter is English, Polish, welsh, Chinese, Indian or from Mars, is immaterial. This referendum is not about nationality it is about democracy. If you are Scottish born in Scotland lived in Scotland all your life then you are a British citizen and, unless you choose to give that up then you will remain so all your life lol. I am English and British and I will STILL be English and British after independence. It's about making our own decisions Spurtle not making us all Scottish.
That really doesn't make sense
Spurtle How doesn't it make sense? golach - maybe because she still has questions for the YES campaign which she seems to want an answer to so she might be best asking the people who are part of the yes campaign.....
Southern-Gal
06-Mar-14, 00:09
I can see little point in getting any answers when the catchline is 'However, I should clarify that any arrangements for independence following the referendum on Scottish Independence depend on relevant legislation brought forward in this area. Any legislation could be subject to consideration, enactment or approval in parliament. There may also be changes or additions to the current policy intention.'
Yes I agree, it seems they are taking for granted some fairly important obstacles!
And if Scotland is not accepted then all the non Scottish born people living in Scotland would be wondering how and if it affected them. And if Scotland was not part of Europe any more all of the native Scots living elsewhere in Europe would maybe have to go home as they would not be part of Europe any longer?
Which is why Scotland will be accepted.....the EU has no mechanism for removing EU citizenship and can hardly leave their citizens in limbo in a country without reciprocal arrangements. An EU bent on enlargement isn't going to refuse Scotland anyway and unlike many of the Eastern bloc countries, newly joined and in the process of doing so, Scotland already meets pretty much all of the criteria required for accession.(Though personally, I'd rather we joined EFTA, and I hope some political party will have a vote on EU membership in their manifesto in 2016.)
It takes two years to work yourself out of the EU.........ask Greenland. :)
Interesting!
I asked both the SNP & the Scottish Govt a couple of pointed questions quite some time ago, the SNP never bothered to reply and ScotGov referred me to Westminster!
Go figure.
I'd figure it would be because your question could only be answered by Westminster....don't you think?
Not a daft question at all.
If I was considered an immigrant would I get any help if I needed it? Would I need private health insurance?
I may not be asked to leave but it could be made that I chose to.
On another note if after a yes vote all UK residents in Scotland would be allowed to apply for a Scottish passport would that be enough to make a nationalist Scot vote no?
If you can vote in Scotland, why would you be considered an immigrant after independence. :confused If you can vote, it means you live here.......and if you live here you will be as much a Scottish citizen as anyone else after independence, Scottish born or not...and entitled to the same rights as everybody else.
It won't make this independence minded, ex-SNP activist Scot vote no...why would it?
I can see little point in getting any answers when the catchline is 'However, I should clarify that any arrangements for independence following the referendum on Scottish Independence depend on relevant legislation brought forward in this area. Any legislation could be subject to consideration, enactment or approval in parliament. There may also be changes or additions to the current policy intention.'You could ask them about that particular point too. :)
No spurtle, the whole point is that the money which is paid in Scotland by the people of Scotland will be spent by a Scottish Government on priorities decided by us. The Scottish voter. Whether that voter is English, Polish, welsh, Chinese, Indian or from Mars, is immaterial. This referendum is not about nationality it is about democracy. If you are Scottish born in Scotland lived in Scotland all your life then you are a British citizen and, unless you choose to give that up then you will remain so all your life lol. I am English and British and I will STILL be English and British after independence. It's about making our own decisions Spurtle not making us all Scottish.
Once again, uncertainty. It says clearly in the reply, UK passports will be recognised untill they expire. Mine expired some 10 years ago. I'm sure I am not alone. It is not now a requirement to hold a current passport to be a British citizen. Where does that leave people like me?
It leaves you a British citizen - don't take my word for it - it is there on the home office website under citizenship. Living in and even becoming a citizen of another country does not take away your British citizenship. It is yours by right until you die or you give it up. If you live out with the UK then you just apply for a British passport from where you live. This happens all the time guys cos British citizens live all over the world.
It leaves you a British citizen - don't take my word for it - it is there on the home office website under citizenship. Living in and even becoming a citizen of another country does not take away your British citizenship. It is yours by right until you die or you give it up. If you live out with the UK then you just apply for a British passport from where you live. This happens all the time guys cos British citizens live all over the world.
The reply does not make that clear, it also reserves the right to change anything they say now, after independence. Did you read it? This is becoming more and more of a farce every day.
And, it is difficult enough now to apply for a new passport from a remote area of the UK (that's why I never bothered until I actually need one), how much more difficult will it be from a foreign country?
If I thought there was any chance of a yes vote, I'd apply for one now just in case.
And what does this mean?
'British citizens who are habitually resident in Scotland and British citizens born in Scotland but residing elsewhere, will automatically be considered Scottish citizens'.
Ducati, I said check out the home office website. The UK website, it explains exactly what happens if you live in a different country and exactly what your British citizenship means, how it is determined and how dual nationality works. The sentence you quotes means exactly what it says, if you are living in Scotland on Independence Day then you will be cinsidered a Scottish citizen and entitled to all the rights of any other Scottish citizen
I'd figure it would be because your question could only be answered by Westminster....don't you think?
No, it could of been answered by both groups. Even if the answer was that there is no answer until Sept 19 or beyond.
If it was an answer for Westminster on post Indy questions then it just shows how little thought has been given to the process.
But squidge, that is only if you are British and live in -say France , but if you are now classed as Scottish and not British how can you get a British passport that's like saying I am French and live in Japan , I'd like an Indian passport . We would no longer be
British I thought that was whole point? Am I right on this if Scotland becomes Independent I am then classed as Scottish and no longer British?
But squidge, that is only if you are British and live in -say France , but if you are now classed as Scottish and not British how can you get a British passport that's like saying I am French and live in Japan , I'd like an Indian passport . We would no longer be British I thought that was whole point? Am I right on this if Scotland becomes Independent I am then classed as Scottish and no longer British?That the way I read it too, I am Scottish so I don't have a problem with it but I can see why other would.
Spurtle I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but this answer is in the UK law. It's not affected by Independence. Whether you are granted Scottish Citizenship makes absolutely NO difference to your British Citizenship because the law surrounding British citizenship does not allow the British government to remove your citizenship. So if you are granted Scottish Citizenship and are a British citizen you will hold dual nationality and will only lose that British Citizenship if you yourself choose to give it up. This applies to every British citizen living in practically any country in the world. No one can force you to give up your right to be a British citizen but you can have and will automatically get Dual citizenship as a result of automatically being given Scottish Citizenship after independence if you live in Scotland.
You will remain a British citizen for the rest of your life.
The information is on the UKBA pages. When I stop travelling I will find the links for you.
Once again, uncertainty. It says clearly in the reply, UK passports will be recognised untill they expire. Mine expired some 10 years ago. I'm sure I am not alone. It is not now a requirement to hold a current passport to be a British citizen. Where does that leave people like me?
Nothing to stop you along with many others sending off for a new one is there?
Apparently several of the worlds' countries (a few EU too) that have British citizens (i.e. Scots) living & working there will be considering either offering them fast-track citizenship in exchange for their UK passport or expulsion if independence goes through. Citing that due to possible passport irregularities, immigration issues and that as such, there is no formal agreement yet in place to allow Scottish citizens to remain there then either offering citizenship or sending them home with their tails between their legs is the only thing they are considering. Will Eck be considering this option with the immigrant population of Scotland too in a tit-for-tat move? I can see a mighty big can of worms on the horizon with "made in Scotland" stamped on the bottom!
Apparently several of the worlds' countries (a few EU too) that have British citizens (i.e. Scots) living & working there will be considering either offering them fast-track citizenship in exchange for their UK passport or expulsion if independence goes through. Citing that due to possible passport irregularities, immigration issues and that as such, there is no formal agreement yet in place to allow Scottish citizens to remain there then either offering citizenship or sending them home with their tails between their legs is the only thing they are considering. Will Eck be considering this option with the immigrant population of Scotland too in a tit-for-tat move? I can see a mighty big can of worms on the horizon with "made in Scotland" stamped on the bottom!
Please cite the source for your assertion in your first sentence.
Southern-Gal
06-Mar-14, 15:07
If the vote is yes then Scotland will at least be temporarily not part of the EU. It worries me that I may find myself in a foreign country with no right to be there. It would be a lot worse for all the Scots living all over Europe when they will not be part of it if Scotland is not 'in'.
Nothing in the reply reassures me either. It just looks like bluff to stop panic with no real commitment behind it AND a get out clause just in case I and many others were daft enough to believe it in the first place.
Southern-Gal
06-Mar-14, 15:08
A more honest reply would be 'we dont know, we havent thought that far ahead'.
But we do know. If the vote is YES then we have 18 months to sort out the EU. Even if Scotland is not In the EU, All the Scots living all over the world will still be British Citizens just like they are now. You will be living in a united Kingdom as a British Citizen for that period. After Independence you will still be a British Citizen living surrounded by other British Citizens but in an Independent Scotland. All the Scots living abroad will still be British Citizens living abroad just like they are now. The ONLY difference to you will be that you can have Scottish citizenship too. Again, this is NOTHING to do with the Scottish Government, independence will have no impact on your British Citizenship at all because this is legislation which applies to British Citizenship across the whole world. Here you go http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-26443014Hope this helps.
If the vote is yes then Scotland will at least be temporarily not part of the EU. It worries me that I may find myself in a foreign country with no right to be there. It would be a lot worse for all the Scots living all over Europe when they will not be part of it if Scotland is not 'in'.
Nothing in the reply reassures me either. It just looks like bluff to stop panic with no real commitment behind it AND a get out clause just in case I and many others were daft enough to believe it in the first place.
You will still be a British Citizen, that will not change. You will then have the choice of whether you want to become a Scottish Citizen too. Nobody is going to turf you out on your ear; and nobody is going to go around throwing out Latvians. Estonians, Poles, Germans, English or French or anyone else who has chosen through perfectly legitimate means to live here.
I'm no advocate for independence, I'm still sitting on the fence, but the more I read and hear of the silliness that gets bandied about the more I'm inclined to say, "Och tae hell wie it, let's just do it and see what happens!"
Ducati, I said check out the home office website. The UK website, it explains exactly what happens if you live in a different country and exactly what your British citizenship means, how it is determined and how dual nationality works. The sentence you quotes means exactly what it says, if you are living in Scotland on Independence Day then you will be cinsidered a Scottish citizen and entitled to all the rights of any other Scottish citizen
But I have no interest in having the rights of a Scottish citizen, I want the rights of a UK citizen.
Nothing to stop you along with many others sending off for a new one is there?
Why should I?
But I have no interest in having the rights of a Scottish citizen, I want the rights of a UK citizen.You'll still be a British Citizen, there will be no compulsion to become anything else if you don't want to.
I think I'll become a Jedi.
Southern-Gal
06-Mar-14, 19:23
I might be a British citizen but will a new independent Scotland be part of Britain?
Where does it say clearly that Scotland will still be part of Britain after independence?
You'll still be a British Citizen, there will be no compulsion to become anything else if you don't want to.
I think I'll become a Jedi.
I'm already a Jedi. But if I get in a scrape in Singapore or some other forn part, I want the might of the UK behind me. May the Force be with you.
I want the might of the UK behind me.Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
What might? We ain't got any anymore! You're better off being stateless.
I might be a British citizen but will a new independent Scotland be part of Britain?
Where does it say clearly that Scotland will still be part of Britain after independence?
If Scotland seperates it will no longer be part of the UK, it will be a seperate independent country; but British Citizens will still be British Citizens. In fact there are British citizens living in independent countries all over the world. Some of them have dual citizenship.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
What might? We ain't got any anymore! You're better off being stateless.
Brother, where is your faith? I would much sooner be a holder of a British passport. Can you imagine the response when unjustly incarcerated in a horrible forn prison and demanding to see the Scottish Ambassador? :lol:
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