Monday morning at 5 o'clock, as the day begins....

[j4bberw0ck]

It’s 5 a.m. on a lovely, sunny, Monday morning. You awake, because no less a person than Tony Blair is shaking your shoulder, gently. (Yes, OK, grim thought I know, but go with it for a second).

“Er, hello, er, y’know, er, actually, I’m terribly sorry, y’know, to, er, wake you, but er, in a manner of speaking, y’know, your country needs you”.

He goes on to explain (with lots of umm-ing and er-ing) that gun crime is getting out of control. He reminds you of the teenagers shot in London in recent weeks, quite likely by other teenagers. Confirms that young kids, some only 8 and 9 years old are being used to “hold” guns on behalf of older kids and adults.

You agree it’s a terrible state of affairs…… and demand to know what the Government is doing to stop it.

“Ah” says Tone…. “there’s a bit of an issue there. We don’t, er, y’know, actually know what to do about it, and that’s where you come in…… your country needs you, well in a very, ah, real sense, it needs all of us, but., er, I, ah, well, that is, ah, Cherie and I, oh, er, and of course the Cabinet, ah, believe you may be the, er, person, with the um, unique qualities for the job. We want YOU to show us how to sort out this, ah, mess, er, no, er, situation. Issues. Whatever.”

Your sense of public duty springs to the fore. At last! A chance for a clean sweep of all those problems! And YOU have the authority and the resources, direct from Tone, to sort it all out. All those dreams you’ve had over a pint or three with your mates about how you’d sort it all out. Naturally, you just can’t wait to get started. You have all and any powers you need to stop the problem dead (sorry) in its tracks.

As he leaves, his grimace (sorry, smile) fading like the Cheshire Cat’s, a grateful PM hands you a special mobile phone with every Government department and Ministers’ phone number. The Security Services are there too. All the Chief Constables. Newspaper editors. Gangs of heavies. The Pale Rider. St George, St Andrew and St Patrick. Superman. Batman. Dirty Harry, and a horde of others. And all waiting breathlessly for your first instruction.

Which is…………….??????????????????????????????????? (ludicrous, or serious as you wish…….)

[Metalattakk]

....And all waiting breathlessly for your first instruction.

Which is…………….??????????????????????????????????? (ludicrous, or serious as you wish…….)

Bring back corporal punishment to instill a sense of respect from our children, combined with intense re-education for parents.

Society needs rebuilt from the ground up.

[danc1ngwitch]

:~( No NO NO be bad to our children...
For whatever you can do through a violent act like the belt, you can do through LOVE and UNDERSTANDING

[Metalattakk]

Don't get me started again. Kids (in general) today have no respect for their actions or for others. This is a direct effect of being held unaccountable by their "loving and understanding" parents.

Ever heard of "Cruel to be kind"?

If you notice I also suggested re-education for parents. Or does it not fit into your agenda to read and understand all of my post?

Now for goodness' sake, stick to the topic.

[squidge]

A rigorous programme of education for parents and children which focuses not on how bad they are but on keeping hte children alive, introducing children to hardened criminals who have been rehabilitiated after having their lives ruined through the use of firearms. The sorts of people that these kids respect cos they are "hard".

Lots of community spirit, get the parents together to fight the gun culture from the inside like some of the estates did with Drugs. Build communities that have the opportunity to care about each other and look after each other, Intensive sports coaching and upgrade facilities. Voluntary work programmes where young people work with disabled or disadvantaged r in hospitals or care homes.

Consider and at least have a discussion on the legalisation of Drugs, given that drugs = pushers and crime and guns in many cases.

I think Metalattackk is right that our society needs rebuilding from the ground up but you cant do that through corporal punishment. You have to do that through the creation of something better than what they have so that they want to be part of it more than they want to fight it

[squidge]

Don't get me started again. Kids (in general) today have no respect for their actions or for others. This is a direct effect of being held unaccountable by their "loving and understanding" parents.

Ever heard of "Cruel to be kind"?

If you notice I also suggested re-education for parents. Or does it not fit into your agenda to read and understand all of my post?

Now for goodness' sake, stick to the topic.

We need to also find the respect for young people from somewhere - these children who are toting guns and killing others are a product of our society and we all bear some responsibility for the state our society is in. We expect children to be horrible and treat them as such and are surprised when they turn out to be just what we expected. Maybe if we expect more then we will get more.

[Metalattakk]

I cannot disagree with much of your post, squidge. It makes a lot of sense.

I still would like to see corporal punishment returned to our schools. Society as a whole has degenerated ever since its abolition (although it of course cannot be blamed entirely) and it would certainly instill a degree of accountability for actions, and some form of trepidation for those about to knowingly err.

It would definitely be one of the first changes I would make.

[squidge]

Metalattackk - i always advocate my right to smack my child but having been brought up in a time when corporal punisment was allowed in schools i saw far too many teachers who ENJOYED it to allow them to hit my child. I think the decay in society started before corporal punishment was abolished.

[sweetpea]

I can't print what my first line would be but wiping them out probably not the best option although it may sound like it. There are some parents out there that really need to be taught things on how to cope, what to do, behavior, values and life skills. Why are weapons so easy to get hold of? Why are so many kids not in school when they should be? I think it all needs picked apart and start again when it comes to the society in this country. I don't have the answers but kids are old before their time 14 going on 40. There are some that haven't got a clue what to do with their lives and can't even read and write, it's such a waste.

[Metalattakk]

We expect children to be horrible and treat them as such and are surprised when they turn out to be just what we expected. Maybe if we expect more then we will get more.

There is rare precedent for this to work, I believe. The degeneration of modern society, and degradation of the social structure has occurred at an ever increasing pace since CP was abolished.

Of course, as I've said before, the parents have to shoulder much of the blame too. If there had been much more "love and understanding" (including the idea that it is better to be cruel to be kind) then perhaps they would have been the ones to discipline their unruly kids properly.

But the evidence suggests that they have shirked this essential duty.

[changilass]

I would make child care a compulsory subject in schools. Years ago parents learned from their own parents but in todays climate of both parents having to work and having to move away to get work this isn't happening.

It might not help with the generations we have now but hopefully it would help with our grandchildren.

[golach]

Bring back National Service, for the lassies as well as the Laddies, I have yet to meet anyone who did their two years National Service, who did not benefit in some small way, for the discipline and respect that was demanded by the NCO's.
I chose the Merchant Navy as my choice and instead of two years, I had to sign on for 10 years service at sea.
I never suffered from the hardship for being at sea for weels on end and lack of home life.
National Service finished around 1959 or so so I did not have to do my 10 years in the MN, I did 8 years.
Discipline never did anyone any harm IMO.

[Angela]

Bring back National Service, for the lassies as well as the Laddies

Still in existence in some European countries, although as far as I'm aware only for boys -and a shorter time than 2 years now.

IMO a year's national service would be a good idea, though not necessarily military service.

It should involve being away from home though. For girls as well as boys, when they finish full-time education.

[Metalattakk]

I don't think any of the armed forces would agree to it though, golach.

After all, would they want to have to deal with all these hundreds of thousands of new recruits, the vast majority of which would detest the very idea of 'National Service'.

That's if you could get them to turn up for it in the first place... ;)

[percy toboggan]

Never forget that most kids are well brought up and have a lot to offer. You lot sound as though yer convinced every child/teenager is a spoilt, snarling brat with no respect for anybody or anything. Garbage. Yes., of course there are some like that, but thankfully it is a minority. They have been spawned by our society so it's our societies fault. Think about it.
Meanwhile the unsung majority who are growing up in a difficult world need remembering. I grew up in the fifites and sixties and life was not so complicated then. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in a blanket condemnation of todays young people.

Most of the kids 'toting guns' as Squidge says are a minority within a minority (blacks in inner cities). They need to be either jailed or re-schooled in the ways of civilisation. They represent the very worst of our youth and are in no way representative of their peers.

[danc1ngwitch]

Don't get me started again. Kids (in general) today have no respect for their actions or for others. This is a direct effect of being held unaccountable by their "loving and understanding" parents.

Ever heard of "Cruel to be kind"?

If you notice I also suggested re-education for parents. Or does it not fit into your agenda to read and understand all of my post?

Now for goodness' sake, stick to the topic.

i squint my eyes, stick out my tongue, <<< i will read posts as i wish...
cruel to be kind... yeah and i recall getting the belt in school because the teacher was angry... i did nothing, it was not me... call that fair... ( do not take things so personally ):roll:

[Angela]

Never forget that most kids are well brought up and have a lot to offer.

Meanwhile the unsung majority who are growing up in a difficult world need remembering. I grew up in the fifites and sixties and life was not so complicated then. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in a blanket condemnation of todays young people.



That's true of course, life was very different then. (I was there too;) )

My 3 kids are now adults. They were brought up with a strong set of moral values - they didn't always adhere to them I know, but they did know right from wrong. Sometimes, in the process of growing up, they chose to do the "wrong" thing....even though they knew it was wrong. Part of growing up, learning from your mistakes, learning to think of other people.

Well... they're all grown up now and only the other day my daughter (a new Mum herself) said "you know, when I see schoolkids about now, a lot of them really scare me".

You could say that's just her getting older herself, and I would agree that a small minority of kids are getting publicity that gives all kids a bad press.

But I also think the situation has got a lot worse in the last 5 to 10 years.

Has the minority got bigger?
Has the behaviour of the minority got more extreme?
Or have standards slumped further overall?

I freely admit that I don't know the answer :(

[changilass]

In cuba all school leavers male and female have to do national service unless they are going on to university, then they only have to do a year and it can be anytime before they are 25. Cuba may not be a country to hold up as an example in a lot of things but in this case I think they are right.

[percy toboggan]

I freely admit that I don't know the answer :(

Me neither, but my 'kids' sound a lot like yours :)

[_Ju_]

Make younsters AND their parents accountable

[badger]

I know obesity is in another thread but I thought the interview on the radio today with the mother of that 14 stone 8 year old was fairly typical of many modern parents. She said she was trying to get him to eat healthier foods but he just wouldn't so she gave him what he wanted as "she couldn't let him starve". Actually I think the likelihood of him starving is pretty remote as if he was given only healthy food for long enough, and junk was completely banned, I reckon even the most obstinate child is going to eat eventually. Maybe she needed some help making good food attractive to him but if she carries on like this he's probably going to die anyway. She admitted he gets breathless after a few minutes exercise.

In case you think I've gone completely off thread, the point of this is that so many parents just seem unable to say No to their children. It's much easier to give them what they want - anything for a quiet life. Then later when they're completely out of control you can blame someone else.

One of the saddest stories I heard recently was about an 11 year old boy in London who was thrown out of his home by his mother at 10 pm and he went to his school because he knew there would be someone there. How desperate do you have to be to do that to a child?

[Lavenderblue2]

I agree with so many of you but especially Metalattakk and Golach. Everything started to fall apart when they did away with corporal punishment in schools and trying to outlaw smacking in the home.
When I was young we respected a policeman and looked up to him – the vast majority of children today don’t know the meaning of respect.
Unfortunately there are so many dysfunctional families today and from them come dysfunctional children and that pattern will continue and become increasingly worse unless something radical is done – and soon.
Yes Golach, they should start by bringing back National Service for both sexes. We’ve seen the benefits of this displayed in these reality programmes on the television in recent years.

LB

[golach]

I don't think any of the armed forces would agree to it though, golach.
After all, would they want to have to deal with all these hundreds of thousands of new recruits, the vast majority of which would detest the very idea of 'National Service'.
That's if you could get them to turn up for it in the first place... ;)
Metalattakk, sad to say I think your right. It would be hard to restart National Service and even harder to run. But us old CPO's and RSM's I am sure would love to give it a go[lol]

[danc1ngwitch]

so many dysfunctional families today ...Drink and drugs...
Loose women[lol] all help the break down of good families...
Belting our childrens soft skins is not the answer...
Children run riot MOST of the time when parents are Drunk or amusing themselves...
I will never allow anyone teacher or not to belt my children, it's not the way...
Yes i got belted and nope i do not recommend putting anyone through that... :(

[pat]

All of us have boundaries, when we were young we pushed our parents to see how far we could push the walls - we would be told off, grounded or given a whack on the behind or legs if boundaries pushed to excess.
We grew up, children came along, we allowed our children more freedom, more money, more everything.
They grow up have children, they allow their children more - they have not learnt parenting from their parents so do not know about boundaries, allowing their children to do what they want for peace and quiet to the parents.
.
The children I come across are mainly well behaved, sensible,
There are exceptions, on investigation usually find there are problems with the home situations.

Parenting classes sound great but who should provide these and when?

[JAWS]

. I grew up in the fifites and sixties and life was not so complicated then..Life was far less complicated then. If you misbehaved as a youngster then there was only place where the finger of blame was pointed. You had done wrong and you were responsible, nobody else.

From the middle of the sixties and thereafter a new game began called “Hunt the Excuse”. It was the fault of parents, background, community, poverty, deprivation, society and any other excuse which people could be made to believe.

To my mind, such excuses are an insult to all those children brought up under identical circumstances who made sure that they didn’t behave in the same way.

It’s time that the blame was placed squarely back where it belongs, with the individual responsible.
That is not, however, an excuse for turning a blind eye and doing nothing for those areas which have been allowed to become totally rundown and neglected.

[highlander]

After watching the programme tonight "Never did me any harm" it took a family with 5 children back to 1970s, the children all had tv's in thier rooms, which made a total of 6 in the house, also 3 dvd players, computers, playstation games, yes i know, this does seem to be to norm for familys now.
In a lot of ways it is OUR faults that some kids have developed into spoilt brats, who can not communate with each other, because we were always told "you cant have that, because we cant afford it"! or made to do what they are told, clean thier rooms, help out with chores around the house, look after thier brothers and sisters, yes im sure all of you, as i was brought up to do all these things, but I am also guilty of when they were asked to do something, and it was not done quick enough, would take over the job and finish it myself. So now we have a generation who could not care a hoot, dont care if house is clean, cant talk to people, only yell and shout, have no respect for anyone else's property, cos its such a throw away society, they dont care who has to replace it, and if they cant well, we will just take it away from someone else.
So the moral of the story is, parents need to start to be a parent, instead of letting kids vegatate in thier rooms, letting them have the last word, making them deserve the things they have, because the word "NO" is not used enough.