View Full Version : Standard Life
Are apparently putting in place contingency plans to re-locate to England in the event of a yes vote and a formal currency and tax union are not established.
That's a fact, here is my comment:
Standard life employ 5000+ people across Scotland (thinking about it, they must be one of the biggest private sector employers) but not only that, they are the biggest customer for business support services in Edinburgh (or they were when I worked there a few years ago) so effect a significant number of jobs in those sectors. These are high value jobs, very few in these sectors are on low wages.
I imagine that they won't be the only employer to be thinking along those lines (particularly in the financial services industry) so, as I think only the most optimistic of commentators think there is any chance now of a currency union, what will the situation be if the first priority of a new Scottish government will have to be replacing lost employment, rather than increasing employment?
That's the trouble with the country today, the money people have a goddammed belief that the world revolves around them and that they call the shots, which is mostly true since the politicians are in bed with them anyway. So to Hell with them. Scotland shouldn't get indepenendence just because 5000 overpaid and self important arseholes might be out of a job? Tough titty and good riddance.
That's the trouble with the country today, the money people have a goddammed belief that the world revolves around them and that they call the shots, which is mostly true since the politicians are in bed with them anyway. So to Hell with them. Scotland shouldn't get indepenendence just because 5000 overpaid and self important arseholes might be out of a job? Tough titty and good riddance.
Well, that was a measured response! :eek: Bit of a Kamakazi attitude...but you don't live in Scotland do you?
Mrs Bradey
27-Feb-14, 10:28
That's the trouble with the country today, the money people have a goddammed belief that the world revolves around them and that they call the shots, which is mostly true since the politicians are in bed with them anyway. So to Hell with them. Scotland shouldn't get indepenendence just because 5000 overpaid and self important arseholes might be out of a job? Tough titty and good riddance.woh jox, bit heavy on the ordinary guys employed by these company, most of them just clerks, secretaries and telephonists! I think to condemn someone a "self important arsehole" just because of who they work for is totally wrong. as for overpaid the 5000 people 90% of them are probably just on average pay. so I think your comments "tough titty & good riddance" are more than a bit harsh!!!
I don't live in my home country through circumstances beyond my control though I hope to return sometime. My response would still be the same if I lived there.
It's hypocritical of successive UK Governments to support foreign nations that have fought for independence but when it comes to Scotland breaking away they don't.
weezer 316
27-Feb-14, 10:36
yeah but it would be best for Scotland mind. Eck said so.
What If RBS leave too? Aberdeen Asset management? When everyone greets about the oil people seem to forget Financial services contributes out next largest chunk of our GDP and employs about 120 000 people.
None of them matter though it would seems in ecks folly
Now back to reality!!
Standard Life have openly stated that they may move out of Scotland quoting " Our key priority is to continue serving the needs of our 4 million UK customers, wherever they reside and regardless of any constitutional change " So why are they moving out of Scotland then? The currency union and tax affairs will only affect the Scottish customers, not those in other countries. If anything, the company will get tax breaks as Eck claims he will give so it's obvious that it's shareholder pressure that is the driving force behind this planned possible move.
If this company as well as many other companies are planning on pulling out of Scotland and leaving people jobless, all i can say is goodbye and thanks for crapping on the country and should just pack up and go now because it's plain to see that they are only interested in the money and obviously aren't here for the good of the Scottish people.
Mrs Bradey
27-Feb-14, 11:33
It's hypocritical of successive UK Governments to support foreign nations that have fought for independence but when it comes to Scotland breaking away they don't.how does the government being hypocritical make 5000 Scots working for an insurance company "self important arseholes"! ?
It's hypocritical of successive UK Governments to support foreign nations that have fought for independence but when it comes to Scotland breaking away they don't.
Previous comments aside :-) I totally agree with you. The UK govt are giving hundreds of millions to foreign breakaway countries to help them establish themselves as an independent country but what are they giving Scotland? = HEEHAW!!!
Mrs Bradey
27-Feb-14, 11:38
It's hypocritical of successive UK Governments to support foreign nations that have fought for independence but when it comes to Scotland breaking away they don't.are you in prison or another institution? because if you are not, then you could come home, nothing is beyond your control. I dint think I could miss out on the vote of a lifetime!
The reality for many organisations and most UK wide, or EU / Global Co's has been to align various sectors of their business to prepare for a realistic eventuality.
Depending on the nature of the service a business provides dictates the laws & regulations surrounding it. If Scotland becomes Independent it may well affect legalities of business and trading, so most Co's now have some dormant / contingency operation if they need to shift operations.
I have been actively engaged in preparing just a contingency so as to ensure no problems, issues or restrictions for various outcomes.
Bear in mind, if Mr Salmond & the SNP put forward a considered business plan with good tax incentives, the shift could be from rUK (and EU) to Scotland.
The reality for many organisations and most UK wide, or EU / Global Co's has been to align various sectors of their business to prepare for a realistic eventuality.
Depending on the nature of the service a business provides dictates the laws & regulations surrounding it. If Scotland becomes Independent it may well affect legalities of business and trading, so most Co's now have some dormant / contingency operation if they need to shift operations.
I have been actively engaged in preparing just a contingency so as to ensure no problems, issues or restrictions for various outcomes.
Bear in mind, if Mr Salmond & the SNP put forward a considered business plan with good tax incentives, the shift could be from rUK (and EU) to Scotland.
Tells it as it is!
The companies do have to prepare but moving out before the vote even goes ahead is just crazy. Abandoning staff and offices for what? All good and well if the yes vote happens and Scotland nosedives off Dunnet Head but what if, as Phill says, the shift is from rUK to Scotland? a mass rush to get office space at a now vastly inflated rent? A rush to build new business parks, industrial estates, factories, housing? will there be job opportunities in their tens of thousands?.....we just don't know and neither do the companies deserting us now!. It's shareholder pressure that's forcing their hand now, the fear of the share price collapse and losses of millions of pounds if they stay in Scotland.
Tells it as it is!
The companies do have to prepare but moving out before the vote even goes ahead is just crazy. Abandoning staff and offices for what? All good and well if the yes vote happens and Scotland nosedives off Dunnet Head but what if, as Phill says, the shift is from rUK to Scotland? a mass rush to get office space at a now vastly inflated rent? A rush to build new business parks, industrial estates, factories, housing? will there be job opportunities in their tens of thousands?.....we just don't know and neither do the companies deserting us now!. It's shareholder pressure that's forcing their hand now, the fear of the share price collapse and losses of millions of pounds if they stay in Scotland.
The reasons or your feelings about them are immaterial. If this should happen and no-one is saying it will, contingency plans, it is just one more negative outcome of a yes vote. (They are really starting to pile up.) It just shows me that people in the know are worried and perhaps are sending a not too subtle signal to voters.
As far as I understand, Standard Life are not going to leave if there is a yes vote. That is not what they've said. They are taking sensible precautions (like most businesses) to prepare for different eventualities.
I don't even know why this is news, other than both sides using it as an empty barrel.
That the same Standard Life which said the same thing in 1997 if we voted for devolution? As Phill said, they will decide on the economics of it all.......as they do in Ireland, and other countries in the world. What they haven't said, I notice, is that they are definitely going "to move out" of Scotland with a YES vote...and have not said they would move out of Scotland lock stock and barrel, in any event........whatever the impression being given by the MSM.
What they have said is " we have started work to establish additional registered companies to operate outside Scotland, into which we could transfer parts of our operations if it was necessary to do so.
are you in prison or another institution? because if you are not, then you could come home, nothing is beyond your control. I dint think I could miss out on the vote of a lifetime!I'm not in a prison with walls, like everyone else I'm imprisoned by government control and enslaved to pay taxes so that the elite and corporations can benefit from the sweat of my brow, meanwhile they fool us into believing we have freedom and democracy, when in actuality, we don't. However, Scotland has a chance to start anew, even though not much will change initially, the people have the chance to be a driving force for change, instead of being subservient to an outdated English Monarch, her government, and corporations which really don't give a damn about you.
Mrs Bradey
27-Feb-14, 15:12
I'm not in a prison with walls, like everyone else I'm imprisoned by government control and enslaved to pay taxes so that the elite and corporations can benefit from the sweat of my brow, meanwhile they fool us into believing we have freedom and democracy, when in actuality, we don't. However, Scotland has a chance to start anew, even though not much will change initially, the people have the chance to be a driving force for change, instead of being subservient to an outdated English Monarch, her government, and corporations which really don't give a damn about you.but you won't get to vote! and as you say your imprisoned by government as a tax slave like the rest of us, just like the "self important arseholes" that you bid "good riddance" and "tough titty" to!! unlike you, they will get to vote, all 5,000 of them!
i wont be good riddance from joxville toward standard life and the others though, more a welcome home as joxville is living South of the border. Win Win for joxville as all the jobs will then be in rUK with Joxville
Mrs Bradey
27-Feb-14, 17:11
i wont be good riddance from joxville toward standard life and the others though, more a welcome home as joxville is living South of the border. Win Win for joxville as all the jobs will then be in rUK with Joxvillethis is true. but the ex employees will join the unemployed of Scotland, as most of the "S-I-A", won't be able to afford to relocate to rUk, or even want to!
It doesn't matter a jot to me where the job locations are, I'm not qualified to work in the financial sector. I can understand everyone's uncertainty over Scotland gaining indepenendence, but surely a new start has to be more exciting than more of the same old crap dished out by successive Westminster governments which only care about S.E. England? Everything is being sold to their corporate mates, things that the UK taxpayer has paid for, is that what you want to continue? Our NHS is being dismantled and sold to Richard Branson et al, how will the poor and the sick pay for much needed medicines? The list is endless of how the UK has continually been shafted, Scotland has a chance to get away from it.
Whenever I hear these reports I like to go straight to the actual bit of information so for all those alarmed by the "Doomed, doomed - we're all Doomed" headlines this morning over the Standard Life thing here is the actual press release
27 February 2014
Scottish referendum
On 18 September 2014 a referendum will be held to decide whether Scotland should become an independent country. In recent months some of our customers have been in touch with us to ask what impact this would have on their savings and investments with Standard Life. Our key priority is to continue serving the needs of our 4 million UK customers, wherever they reside and regardless of any constitutional change. The same applies to our customers in other parts of the world. As a business we have a long-standing policy of strict political neutrality and at no time will we advise people on how they should vote, but we have a duty and a responsibility to understand the implications of independence for our customers and other stakeholders and to take whatever action may be necessary to protect their interests. In view of the uncertainty that is likely to remain around this issue, there are steps that we can and will take now based on our own analysis. For example, we have started work to establish additional registered companies to operate outside Scotland, into which we could transfer parts of our operations if it was necessary to do so. This is a purely precautionary measure, and customers do not need to take any action. We are simply putting in place a mechanism which, in the event of constitutional change, allows us to provide continuity to customers and to continue serving them, wherever they live in the UK. Customers can find further details in our 2013 Annual Report and Accounts (http://www.standardlife.com/media/financial_results.html) from our Chief Executive David Nish and Chairman Gerry Grimstone.”
Here is also the link to their actual annual report so that you can read it for yourself.
http://www.standardlife.com/media/financial_results.html
Enjoy
Interestingly Standard Life operates in 14 different countries
RagnarRocks
27-Feb-14, 19:19
That's right because companies which aren't in the slightest bothered by the independence debate go to all the expense of working out and putting in place contingency plans just for the fun of it. In real terms the statement means if you don't sort out your currency, regulatory, tax and overall fiscal situation to our liking were off same no doubt some of the other financial services companies. Which is the better place to be in the modern financial world UK or Newly Independent Scotland. All this shows is the uncertainty the SNP have created in the financial services sector not good for a countries economy which ever way it goes.
Bobinovich
27-Feb-14, 19:48
In real terms the statement means if you don't sort out your currency, regulatory, tax and overall fiscal situation to our liking were off same no doubt some of the other financial services companies.
The crux of the problem as I see it is the UK Government's unwillingness to sit down & work out an actual deal, or even a provisional deal, before the vote so that not only would businesses know what post-independence might, but voters would too!! However that would be admitting that the vote may go against what they want, so they won't do it...
tonkatojo
27-Feb-14, 20:06
The crux of the problem as I see it is the UK Government's unwillingness to sit down & work out an actual deal, or even a provisional deal, before the vote so that not only would businesses know what post-independence might, but voters would too!! However that would be admitting that the vote may go against what they want, so they won't do it...
I thought they did answer and the answer was no to sharing the UK £, and by the looks of it they did sit down and work it out as all major party's sang from the same hymn sheet, so businesses are aware of that before the vote.
RagnarRocks
27-Feb-14, 20:20
The crux of the problem as I see it is the UK Government's unwillingness to sit down & work out an actual deal, or even a provisional deal, before the vote so that not only would businesses know what post-independence might, but voters would too!! However that would be admitting that the vote may go against what they want, so they won't do it...The deal is NO deal on currency seems the SNP do not understand a very simple concept.
Bobinovich
27-Feb-14, 20:21
I thought they did answer and the answer was no to sharing the UK £, and by the looks of it they did sit down and work it out as all major party's sang from the same hymn sheet, so businesses are aware of that before the vote.
Currency union is only part of the issues RR listed, and even then yes of course they're singing from the same song sheet, that's because they too want to see a No vote come September, so they would, wouldn't they? Should there be a Yes vote then a comprehensive set of negotiations would take place to agree an amicable split...regardless of what either side has said in the run up...it can all change.
tonkatojo
27-Feb-14, 20:44
Currency union is only part of the issues RR listed, and even then yes of course they're singing from the same song sheet, that's because they too want to see a No vote come September, so they would, wouldn't they? Should there be a Yes vote then a comprehensive set of negotiations would take place to agree an amicable split...regardless of what either side has said in the run up...it can all change.
Aye one can but hope, but we will see as it definitely will come out in the wash.
Currency union is only part of the issues RR listed, and even then yes of course they're singing from the same song sheet, that's because they too want to see a No vote come September, so they would, wouldn't they? Should there be a Yes vote then a comprehensive set of negotiations would take place to agree an amicable split...regardless of what either side has said in the run up...it can all change.
The US Government denies they have a crashed flying saucer and alien bodys...so they must have them right? Sound familiar?
You might also want to read Standard and Poor's report on the credit rating an Independent Scotland is likely to achieve
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdf
Its not very long but it basically says an Independent Scotland could expect to enjoy investment grade credit ratings (BBB or above) even without a currency union. It also suggests some rebalancing of the economy is required because Scotland has a sector which is unusually large. This sector is Financial Sector and Standard and Poor suggest that this sector poses a risk although re-domiciling some of this business to rUK would reduce that particular risk.
Read it for yourself
The US Government denies they have a crashed flying saucer and alien bodys...so they must have them right? Sound familiar?Utter claptrap, we know it's not true. However it's rumoured Lord Lucan works as a janitor in Area 51! ;-)
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 08:41
You might also want to read Standard and Poor's report on the credit rating an Independent Scotland is likely to achievehttp://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdfIts not very long but it basically says an Independent Scotland could expect to enjoy investment grade credit ratings (BBB or above) even without a currency union. It also suggests some rebalancing of the economy is required because Scotland has a sector which is unusually large. This sector is Financial Sector and Standard and Poor suggest that this sector poses a risk although re-domiciling some of this business to rUK would reduce that particular risk. Read it for yourself
You really need to learn to read between the lines with financial services its quite apparent you don't understand what they are actually saying. Could have,might have as for a BBB credit rating UK currently enjoys AAA so that instantly means higher interest rates. If your financial services sector decides to move across the border then you have no financial services sector.
Stop trying to put positive spin on every bit of negative news.
People will start to think you're on the payroll of the SNP
Don't forget the last bit which is after the part which says about using sterling without a currency union would make for hard times or the part which says 25% of Scotland's workforce is public sector which would need to be reduced.
In short, the challenge for Scotland to go it alone would be significant, but not unsurpassable.
That doesn't sound like a vibrant economy full of hope and expectations, that sounds very much like tighten your belt you're in for a rougher ride .
Utter claptrap, we know it's not true. However it's rumoured Lord Lucan works as a janitor in Area 51! ;-)
I also heard that rumour but there was the addition that he rides daily from building to building on Shergar and whilst drinking his tea from the holy grail, he listens to the missing 18 minutes of the Watergate tape for inspiration.....
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 09:58
I don't mind hearing joxs comments because he bears as much relevance to this Independence vote as does David Bowie, if you've moved away you ain't voting cause you don't live here nae more.
I don't mind hearing joxs comments because he bears as much relevance to this Independence vote as does David Bowie, if you've moved away you ain't voting cause you don't live here nae more.
Aye, he left the UK and made "A fantastic voyage" to "A better future" and "A new career in a new town" and to join the "Young Americans" and "All the young dudes" "Night Clubbing" and "Dancing in the street" but it looks like "It ain't easy" "As the world falls down" around him........not that i'm a Bowie fan y'know....oh no...never.....[smirk]
Its clear you have a huge amount of experience in the financial sector Ragnar so perhaps you could look at my interpretations and explain why they are wrong - without the snidey digs would be helpful:roll:
The macroeconomic profile of the wealthy and open Scottish economy conforms with the typical profile of
sovereigns rated in investment-grade categories (i.e., 'BBB-' or higher).
Scotland is a rich country and holds in own in comparisons with other rich countries.
· A successful agreement on Scotland's membership of a monetary union negotiated with either the U.K. or the
eurozone (European Economic and Monetary Union) would provide considerable support for the rating on a
sovereign Scotland.
A Currency union would be the best way to proceed to ensure that Scotland remains financially secure
·
Alternatively, a decision by a sovereign Scotland to issue its own new and untested currency or to unilaterally adopt
the currency of another sovereign--without gaining access to that currency's lender of last resort--could pose some
initial risks to external financing, in our opinion. Specifically, we think Scotland would be hard-pressed, under a new
currency regime, to quickly replicate the deep capital markets it enjoys today as part of the larger U.K.
There are some risks which need to be seriously considered if Scotland decides to go with its own currency .....
· Nevertheless, with a GDP (including North Sea oil output) only slightly below that of New Zealand, a developed
economy and developed financial system, there is no fundamental reason why Scotland could not successfully float
a currency.
however Scotland has the ability and resources to run its own currency successfully
· The composition of Scotland's external balance sheet is as yet hypothetical, but our initial observation is that the
Scottish financial sector is unusually large, with total assets estimated at 12.5x GDP. We would therefore likely view
the financial sector as a significant contingent risk to the state. At the same time, a large part of this activity could be
re-domiciled to the U.K.
the biggest risk to Scotland's economy is not oil but is the financial sector and moving some of this business to the UK would help to reduce that risk. (Seems like the medias "spin" that Standard life are packing their bags might actually be to Scotland's economic benefit - if not the employment benefit.)
IS any of that completely wrong?
Next perhaps you could interpret this bit of the report.
Even excluding North Sea output and calculating per capita GDP only by looking at onshore income, Scotland would qualify for our highest economic assessment. Higher GDP per
capita, in our view, gives a country a broader potential tax and funding base to draw from, which supports
creditworthiness.
I suggest this means that even without oil Scotland has a good credit profile and could expect to get a good credit rating.
And their final paragraph....
n brief, we would expect Scotland to benefit from all the attributes of an investment-grade sovereign credit
characterized by its wealthy economy (roughly the size of New Zealand's), high-quality human capital, flexible product
and labor markets, and transparent institutions. Nevertheless, the newly formed sovereign state would begin life with
comparatively high levels of public debt, sensitivity to oil prices, and, depending on the nature of arrangements with
the EU or U.K., potentially limited monetary flexibility. At the same time, Scotland's external position in terms of
liquidity and investment could be subject to volatility should banks leave. On the other hand, if this were to happen, it
could bring benefits in terms of reducing the size of the Scottish economy's external balance sheet, normalizing the size
of its financial sector, and reducing contingent liabilities for the state. In short, the challenge for Scotland to go it alone
would be significant, but not unsurpassable.
In short what it says is that an Independent Scotland would face risks but could successfully overcome those risks to have a healthy economy and be successful.
See At no time have I or anyone else suggested this is going to be a walk in the park. It is going to be a slog but the benefits of a rich and diversified economy are there for the taking if we CHOOSE. Or do you think Scotland doesnt have the ability to manage its own economy, or isnt educated enough or isnt genetically programmed to do so - both comments made by people who should know better over the last few days. Of course Scotland has the ability to manage its own economy - its ludicrous to suggest we somehow dont, I'm sure you agree.
Finally you say it says tighten your belts you are in for a rough ride. Well Rags - its going to be rough whatever boat we travel in - Independence or the Union - at least in our own boat we can steer things the way WE want to steer things. Something we dont have the ability to do now.
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 11:08
Without even bothering to read your post its because you fail to take account of things like the currency union isnt available and the way you window dress everything up in almost a delusional desire to put positive spin on things means entering into debate with you is pointless. You're so politically motivated you do not see or fail to understand the pitfalls all you see is the world through your rosé tinted glasses. I'd rather debate with a brick wall
Where is my interpretation WRONG rags - if i am wrong in what I have said then show me where I have spun it differently from what the actual paper says. NO rose tinted glasses here honey. The only reason you would rather debate with a brick wall rags is because a brick wall doesnt ask you to provide any answers - answers you dont seem to have.
You make a lot of your experience as a Financial adviser and I am certain that this is wide ranging and significant so I am asking you - as an expert - to show me how I have so significantly misinterpreted what is written in the paper. How does my statement "It is going to be a slog but the benefits of a rich and diversified economy are there for the taking if we CHOOSE. " indicate that I am delusional.
Yeah you are right I am politically motivated - you are ABSOLUTELY right because politics is the only way to drive social change and that is the driver that persuades me that independence is the right way to go.
I don't mind hearing joxs comments because he bears as much relevance to this Independence vote as does David Bowie, if you've moved away you ain't voting cause you don't live here nae more.I guess you'll have sent a letter/email to Sean Connery telling him the same thing? :-)
The fact I don't live there doesn't stop me wanting what I believe is the best for my country and try to influence those who have a vote to vote for independence.
weezer 316
28-Feb-14, 11:49
Squidge ill take your assesment to task alright....
Currency union. I have nailed you on this before. I pointed out, 20 times, how its not in our interests. Same as being in the Euro isnt. We woudlnt actually have independence at all as London would control our fiscal policy, interest rates, the lot. When it was pointed out we would be like Greecem or worse given or massive financial sector that depends on cash flowing, you put your head in the sand and said we have a strnger economy than Greece, completely ignoring the issue. We wouldn't have a strong economy very long that's for sure as its dependent being in control of our currency. You will defend this, despite the fact your wrong.
Your wrong for the same reason Eck ruled out the Euro (think....why would that be.....looks exacty like what he wants with the £) and hes advocating the policy (and you are defending it) because in your head he has framed it as "waaahhhhh....Westminster being bullies....wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh....call the waaaaaaaaaaaambulance" when in reality it will utterly ruin this countries economy.
And anyway, even if you dont agree with that, why the hell should a foreign country underwrte £125bn of scottish liabilities? Over the cost of £500m in transaction costs!
Please, get a grip. Sheep like you defending such nonsense will drive this place down the pan.
Weezer .....Honey ..... I have pointed out 20 times that I dont think a currency union is the best way forward - I would prefer an independent scotland to have its own currency..... did you hear that Weezer - I dont advocate a currency union as the best option for an Independent Scotland
Jeezo did you even read the paper or the points that I asked for help with?
Lets summarize so that you can maybe reasses your ranting answer...
This is the paper
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdf
and my post is specifically about the credit worthiness of an Independent Scotland and whether or not my assessment of the points put forward in that paper is correct or not.
Its not about currency union although the paper refers to that issue.
Come on Weezer Keep Up!!!!
Edit : I was a bit puzzled about your response which seemed to soooo clearly miss the point and thats not like you then I thought ......did you simply read Rags reply and base your response to me on his post? It seems that Rags also thinks the paper is about currency union too and didnt read my post to know what I was asking.
Crumbs all these people who are so much smarter, intelligent and experienced than me and they havent learned to actually read the whole question first!!!! I learned that in primary school - you know the thing where your teacher gives you a whole list of instructions and at the end it says only do the first one so everyone is standing up and turning round and all they needed to do was write their name on the paper.
Aye, he left the UK and made "A fantastic voyage" to "A better future" and "A new career in a new town" and to join the "Young Americans" and "All the young dudes" "Night Clubbing" and "Dancing in the street" but it looks like "It ain't easy" "As the world falls down" around him........
Who Jox?.....
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 16:14
I guess you'll have sent a letter/email to Sean Connery telling him the same thing? :-)The fact I don't live there doesn't stop me wanting what I believe is the best for my country and try to influence those who have a vote to vote for independence.
Now why would I bother writing to some champagne socialist luvvie actor tax exile who thinks he can live elsewhere to suit his purposes then try and influence the debate. The same would apply to people who left Scotland to work elsewhere but still want a vote, the only exception I'd make is serving members of her majesties forces. Otherwise I haven't got the time of day for them if you love your country that much you'd still be able to vote if you still lived here.
Where is my interpretation WRONG rags - if i am wrong in what I have said then show me where I have spun it differently from what the actual paper says. NO rose tinted glasses here honey. The only reason you would rather debate with a brick wall rags is because a brick wall doesnt ask you to provide any answers - answers you dont seem to have.
You make a lot of your experience as a Financial adviser and I am certain that this is wide ranging and significant so I am asking you - as an expert - to show me how I have so significantly misinterpreted what is written in the paper. How does my statement "It is going to be a slog but the benefits of a rich and diversified economy are there for the taking if we CHOOSE. " indicate that I am delusional.
Yeah you are right I am politically motivated - you are ABSOLUTELY right because politics is the only way to drive social change and that is the driver that persuades me that independence is the right way to go.
And it is worth mass unemployment and homelessness to you is it?
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 16:35
Well Squidge the answer to your questions would be better placed to the heads of the financial services companies that are lining up making contingency plans, registering offices down in rUK, yes I've plenty of experience in the financial services sector but what I think doesn't make a lot of difference much the same as what you think, we are very smaller players in this game. Why don't you write to the heads of Standard Life, RBS, Lloyds, Scottish Widows,TSB, Virgin Money,Clydesdale Bank,Aberdeen, Tesco Bank, Sainsburys Bank, Aegon. Or maybe BP, Royal Dutch Shell to name but a few why they are making contingency plans . Maybe unlike you who seems to 110% positive its all such a wonderful idea, just maybe all their analysts are totally wrong all those people with all their combined knowledge are setting in place plans to move south because of the potential for financial instability. Now of course Alex Salmond will disagree with Mark Carney, George Osbourne, Danny Alexander, Ed Balls, H.M Tresury who all say NO to currency union. Yes you can carry on using the pound then watch the companies flee south of the border. You may be able to use the Euro that's if Alex Salmond is right and Mr Barroso and Mr Van Rumpoy are wrong. Or maybe you could have a brand new currency with a Completely new regulatory and taxation system of course the you'd have to hope the financial services sector likes it or they'll be gone again. You can hope that you get a AAA credit rating but of course that would be reliant of you staying fiscally attached to rUK otherwise its a quick downgrade as you're a new country and an unknown quantity so interest rates go up borrowing becomes more expensive, but ooops we forget the currency unions already been ruled out. It seems the closer we get to the actual date of the referendum the more the SNP bury their heads in the sand and say don't worry it will be Ok. Well there's an awful lot of negatives stacking up and either your blind and living in a world where it will be ok because you say so, or you look around and see the negatives slowly but surely piling up. If you read the credit rating report you'll see that there's a lot of, should be ok possibly maybe but the route there would be long and painful costing people's jobs, that's includes quite a considerable downsizing of the public services sectors 25% of the workforce how is that justifiable in a rational sane world let alone expanding it.
Lots of words Rags - all of which you have said before but you havent answered any of my questions.
You said
its quite apparent you don't understand what they are actually saying
And I have asked you to identify where I am making such transparent mistakes. I am not particularly advocating any of the things that they say in this paper I am simply asking where my interpretation of what they say is wrong.
So let me ask you again quite specifically where have I totally misinterpreted what the report says.
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 18:29
Like I said write and ask the business's that disagree with your position and ask them as I'm not privy to what their reasonings are, as you like clear and concise answers, respectfully I suggest that they would be best suited to giving you an in depth answer as to the fiscal positions they are worried about should Scotland become independent. As it is anything I say you'll just counter with your own preffered version of what's being said. Although I suspect that with such a growing number of employers showing more disquiet about the possibility of Independence there must be something fundamentally wrong with your interpretation over mine and theirs :0)). They seem to be investing a lot of time and effort into ensuring they have contingency plans in place ready should the event occur that maybe your political aspirations cloud your view of the realities to potentials of problems. I'm sure you'll remember such political heavyweights from history who thought their ideas of a wonderful socialist world would be good for the people, Josef Stalin, Mal Tse-Tung, Pol Pot to name but a few, lets us not also forget the terrible price the ordinary people paid for such great visionaries of a socialist utopia.
Why is it so hard for you to answer what I asked you? You said yourself you were a financial adviser and as a person with this background you said that I had misinterpreted this report. You said it, not
Standard Life, RBS, Lloyds, Scottish Widows,TSB, Virgin Money,Clydesdale Bank,Aberdeen, Tesco Bank, Sainsburys Bank, Aegon. Or maybe BP, Royal Dutch Shell
You - Ragnarocks - said that I didnt understand what this report said. So Why wont YOU tell me where I got it wrong with my understanding. This whole business of the referendum has and continues to be a learning journey for me and if my understanding of the points I highlighted are WRONG then I would be glad to have it explained to me as to why.
And as for contingency and continuity planning I remember the hoops everyone had to jump through for Y2K, We were contingencied and continuitied up to our eyeballs and 00.00 on 01.01.2000 passed off without the great doomladen prophesies coming to anything. Of course businesses need to do this and must do this ,,,, it doesnt mean that what they are contingencying for will come to pass. The people who will be fighting hardest for Scotland to continue to be a great place to do business will be the Scottish Government elected in 2016 - whatever party/parties it is made up of - that is the job they are entrusted with.
RagnarRocks
28-Feb-14, 19:11
Because you are given answers them resolve yourself to twist the facts, disseminate the information to a form that suits your purpose hence my statement earlier about talking to a brick wall. Your mind is set and no matter what Information, facts or statistics are placed in front of you, your position will remain stubbornly unchanged. As is frequently the way with people who have a particularly strong political leaning toward the left. You'll believe what you wish to believe even when thousands are out of work you'll say its for the greater good and how everything will be ok with just a little more social reform history is littered with examples of that type of mindset from all sides of the political arena usually not for the greater good.
Because you are given answers Errrrmmmm no Im not.
resolve yourself to twist the facts, disseminate the information to a form that suits your purpose
I included the actual report and urged people to look for themselves - with the Standard Life announcement I included the actual press release and urged people to look for themselves - how is that twisting facts, disseminating information to a form that suits MY purpose????? Same with the white paper, the fiscal working group report, the Economic case for Scottish Independence.
But all that said you cant answer a few simple questions to show me where i was wrong.
So for anyone who was wondering what the fuss was over here is the link to the paper and the original post
You might also want to read Standard and Poor's report on the credit rating an Independent Scotland is likely to achieve
http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/StandardAndPoorsKeyConsiderations.pdf
Its not very long but it basically says an Independent Scotland could expect to enjoy investment grade credit ratings (BBB or above) even without a currency union. It also suggests some rebalancing of the economy is required because Scotland has a sector which is unusually large. This sector is Financial Sector and Standard and Poor suggest that this sector poses a risk although re-domiciling some of this business to rUK would reduce that particular risk.
Read it for yourself
RagnarRocks
01-Mar-14, 09:30
As I said previously trying to debate with you is like having root canal work without anaesthetic. You just go on and on and on ad nauseum repeating assumptions even when they've been disproved
Yeah yeah yeah Ragnar. You know what, when you actually get round to disproving anything then i'll pay attention. For now Ill just expect that other people will actually take advantage of being given the links and read things themselves. I have absolute faith in people's abilities to understand and assess the information for themselves. Have a nice day
RagnarRocks
01-Mar-14, 10:11
See there you go! Absolutely no interest in hearing what others have to say you use this as a platform to disseminate your political views you've no interest in differing points of view all you want to do is force feed your ideals down people's throats . Now where's my anaesthetic !
But Rags honey, You are not saying anything. Despite having been asked and asked to explain why I was wrong in my assessment of the paper you have said Nothing Im listening rags but you know having a go at me for not listening to answers you haven't given is a bit daft.
Now this must be boring you cos it's boring me and probably everyone else as we'll. Today I'm making a Thor costume and a Dragon Costume for schools world book day so I'll just leave you to complain about me to your hearts desire. Catch ya later ;)
RagnarRocks
01-Mar-14, 10:36
No need for the caps its considered shouting maybe you should check the forum rules
SHOUTING!!!
When messages are posted in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, it is considered to be shouting. On the whole, the poster does not intend to shout, but has simply omitted to check the status of their caps-lock key before posting. This type of post is almost always taken as shouting and the intent of the post can be misread by other users causing arguments and disruption to come from a simple lack of care when posting.
Shouting carries 1 Infraction point, duration 1 month.
Oh I'm sorry Rags did I hurt your feelings? The capitals were for emphasis only but as I'm listening and you are clearly offended by them then I will change them for you. By the way, if you think the post broke the rules, you should click on the little triangle on the left hand side to report it.
RagnarRocks
01-Mar-14, 10:57
Once again your arrogance and over bearing manner shine through, maybe you should check back on your previous posts or do you consider yourself above the rules as the only apply to the great unwashed masses.
A communist (surely one of the great unwashed) and an elitist in the space of a few posts! The rules actually say, "when messages are posted in all capital letters" which I interpreted to mean the entire message and not simply a word or two but I'm happy for you to show me I have interpreted them incorrectly, and I'm happy to change a post if you feel I have shouted at you.
Mrs Bradey
01-Mar-14, 16:32
A communist (surely one of the great unwashed) and an elitist in the space of a few posts! The rules actually say, "when messages are posted in all capital letters" which I interpreted to mean the entire message and not simply a word or two but I'm happy for you to show me I have interpreted them incorrectly, and I'm happy to change a post if you feel I have shouted at you."fight, fight, fight! come on guys simmer down!
Just so we all understand, we need to re-balance the economy by getting rid of the financial services sector. Along with ship building, the defence industry, the nuclear power industry etc. Hugely increasing the public sector and erecting windmills made in Holland (BTW the specialist crane operator is an Irish firm).
This is starting to sound completely insane. Another BTW, in the brave new world, who is paying for the new Scottish National Grid that we need to get the windy power to anywhere we can sell it? :confused
Mrs Bradey
02-Mar-14, 10:27
Just so we all understand, we need to re-balance the economy by getting rid of the financial services sector. Along with ship building, the defence industry, the nuclear power industry etc. Hugely increasing the private sector and erecting windmills made in Holland (BTW the specialist crane operator is an Irish firm).This is starting to sound completely insane. Another BTW, in the brave new world, who is paying for the new Scottish National Grid that we need to get the windy power to anywhere we can sell it? :confusedI think rheghead said how many billions of quid the NG would cost ! NOT cheap!
Meanwhile - today in Scotland.....:roll:
..... it may come as a surprise to learn there was confirmation last week that an independent Scotland would not only be economically viable, but could have a highly successful and diverse economy with a healthier credit rating than the UK.
On Tuesday, we learned that, far from the oil running out, Scotland is on the cusp of another oil boom, according to a report from Sir Ian Wood, commissioned and endorsed by the UK Government. It said there are still up to 24 billion barrels of recoverable oil, worth about £200 billion in additional revenue, and £1 trillion-£2trn in reserves. Environmentalists rightly raise questions as to whether it is right to suck these hydrocarbons out in the shortest time possible. Yet this was reported in one newspaper as the "North Sea's greatest crisis in 50 years", based on the observation that production has been declining. Most of the "easy" oil has been extracted and the revenue wasted, but there is still almost as much oil left in the North Sea as has been taken out over the last 40 years. There can no longer be any debate about the existence of this very substantial asset.
And...
We also learned last week that, according to one of the world's biggest rating agencies, an independent Scotland might have a AAA credit rating even without taking the oil into account. Standard & Poor's reported on Thursday that an independent Scotland would "qualify for our highest economic assessment". Its analysts looked at Scottish economic fundamentals like on-shore GDP and concluded that an independent Scotland would be up there with triple A-rated countries such as Germany.
Standard & Poor's recognised that there was a risk associated with monetary disunion and the possible departure of banks, but it didn't take them very seriously. Indeed, it said that losing some of the big banks might be a benefit to an independent Scotland as a top-heavy banking sector could cause trouble if one institution went bust.
And.....
The truth is that Scotland has the potential to be a world-leading economy with better economic security than Denmark.
And....
Barclays chief executive Antony Jenkins said last month that he "can make it work either way" on independence, which is surely the sensible position to adopt. British Airways has also distanced itself from the debate, saying it might even benefit from an independent Scotland.
But good old Royal Bank of Scotland announced last week that it too was preparing to leave, because of the "political risks" of independence. Some might think this no great loss, given that the bank had just reported losses of £8bn, while shamefully paying its bosses £500 million in bonuses. Let the rest of the UK take on the toxic balance sheet of the bank that almost single-handedly destroyed the UK economy and has lost more than £40bn in the last few years.
But this became yet another "warning" against what headline-writers are now calling "iScotland". Mind you, RBS seems to be both an asset and a liability. Better Together's Alistair Darling is always saying an independent Scotland could be brought down by its banks. So why would it want to keep it?
And Finally.....
It's heads they win, tails we lose. It takes a huge effort to read past the alarmist headlines about monetary chaos, European Union rejection, job losses, madness and early death. But those who do could see a very different picture: whatever else it would be, an independent Scotland would not be short of a bob or two.
Thanks to http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/forget-the-dam-busters-iscotland-would-be-oil-rich-and-creditworthy-even-without-.23565915
Humerous Vegetable
02-Mar-14, 15:39
But Rags honey, You are not saying anything. Despite having been asked and asked to explain why I was wrong in my assessment of the paper you have said Nothing Im listening rags but you know having a go at me for not listening to answers you haven't given is a bit daft.
Now this must be boring you cos it's boring me and probably everyone else as we'll. Today I'm making a Thor costume and a Dragon Costume for schools world book day so I'll just leave you to complain about me to your hearts desire. Catch ya later ;)
I was going to say that you are totally wasting your time replying to the politically naïve replies on here, but the inept responses you seem to be receiving are doing more for the Yes vote than anything Alex Salmond could possibly say. Everyone knows that corporate contingency plans are in place for all national and multi-national companies and organisations, including the NHS (in case we all come down with bird flu) and the World Trade Centre when the Sept 11 attacks occurred. It's part of the insurance requirements for any organisation.
I hardly ever post on here anymore, because it's such a soft hit, it's just about trolled out.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 15:54
Actually I'd disagree I'd consider the constant barrage of non facts, half baked ideas and twisting what is actually said would be doing the yes vote more harm than good. Hence the No vote is gaining ground in the polls whilst the yes vote has stalled and loosing ground. All down to a lack of definitive answers from the people pushing for independence the SNP. But Squidge is quite right about one thing its got very very boring.
I do find it quite distasteful that you seem to think that the corporate world had some contingency plan for the world trade centres,but I guess some people have no lower level that they are prepared to descend to when try to win a loosing argument.
But see humerous vegetable, it's not just for rags, Ducati et al, I know others read my posts because I get positive rep. It's true I will never convert any of those naysayers here but someone else might read my posts and be prompted to go look for themselves and that's all I try to do. Get people to look behind the headlines and make their own minds up. I get sidetracked occasionally by the unpleasantness and sometimes I get snippet in return but if I gave up then others like oddquine, you, and the rest of the yes voters might do the same. Then this board would turn into a right wing compassion free doom laden place. and I worry that those people who are too intimidated by the nonsense to ask questions would see no alternative viewpoint so here I am. It's a hardship lol but hey ho. It also helps to hone my own thoughts and work on understanding issues so I can talk to real life people.
Time will tell whether it was worth it or not.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 17:00
So any one who disagrees gets lumped in as a compassion less right wing naysayer. Have you considered that many give us positive rep and we get PMs for disagreeing with you. Nice to see the quality of your debate is bash people over the head till their numb with a zealotry only known to those on the more extreme sides of the left. Still doesn't answer the question why is the yes vote declining the press and journal gave the yes vote 17% and the No vote 65% and why non of the questions on currency, taxation, EU membership, NATO membership have been answered , why companies are preparing contingency plans, what if rUK doesn't like independent Scotland immigration and puts up border posts, pensions the list is rather long and constantly repeating what are they going to do or twisting the facts do not change the fact the SNP have failed to give comprehensive answers on any of these questions. The answer because we say so doesn't wash nor does the you're bluffing bullies cut it either. Now I hope you're ready for what happens if the vote you're so expecting doesn't turn into a yes maybe you'll be calling the current 65% right wing naysayers and those who join them. As it is to the best of my knowledge you're neither Scottish nor live in Caithness so I wonder why as a non paid, non MP ,non native, non resident, you're so insistent on the people of Caithness voting for your opinion. Surely you'd be better off investing your time trying to convert the people where you actually live wherever that may happen to be.
Lets not forget another big question the oil fields Mr Salmond says the oil is all Scotlands under the current line drawn but under international arbitration you can only expect about 50% of them to stay under Scottish Control that's massive bit to the budget which hasn't been clearly mentioned by the YES campaign.
I'm sure you do get positive rep and glad that you love being lumped together as right wing compassion less naysayer about as much as I like being lumped as a communist dictator like pol pot.
I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me rags, and at the risk of repeating myself then I don't care how people vote simply that they see both sides of the discussion.
I'm not going to even justify why I post here and I rarely say because I say so even to the children. But you know just like there is a report button there is an ignore button. If however you would prefer me to be banned altogether then perhaps you should send a pm to the admin, or start a petition or stage a sit in or boycott the org til I am summarily dismissed, whatever.... I think you secretly like me being here, gives you chance to insult someone who will always forgive you ;) I'm nice like that lol
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 19:09
You mean like your neg reps when I say something you don't like sorry not my style. I've no need to get you banned or even attempt to I'm sure on about sept 20th you'll go rather quiet when your politicking fails miserably.
You keep trying to turn the debate into a poor little me issue or they are bullies, but the real issue is.
Is what the SNP saying factually correct,not what your opinion or wishful desire is but whether or not we can trust a party that is pushing for independence to deliver what they promise.
So far despite all the accusations it would appear the currency union is off the table with no plan B.
The EU is not quite the guarantee its made out to be.
The share of oil revenue which the economic plans are based upon not quite as clear cut as we'd be led to believe. Potential instability in the financial services sector with potential for job losses if the companies relocate.
Loss of jobs within the Shipyards if the vote is Yes.
More companies that export looking to relocate their head offices to avoid the potentials of currency, taxation and fiscal problems.
At the moment 25% of Scotland's working population is employed by the public sector that would have to be reduced to be affordable, so more job losses.
The pensions of Scotland's increasing aged population, those aren't affordable apparently.
The NHS currently being centralised by the SNP which is leading to poorer service, same goes for the police and fire brigade.
More centralisation from the current government which means less public accountability.
Lecturers, Teachers and public servants being threatened by SNP officials not to speak out for the No campaign.
The SNPs white paper is unravelling like a not particularly well made jumper and has more holes in it than Rab.Cs vest.
Currently the polls show 65% of the population intend to vote yes. But here we have strident socialists ramming their tired arguments of trust us it will be ok down our throats with no facts to back them up.
Lets not even get on about how Scotland would defend itself as that part is almost as laughable as the rest, especially when Faslane has to close with the loss of more jobs.
Seems a lot of job losses, a lot of unsatisfactorily answered questions, more financial instability when the country as a whole least needs it.
All this from a man who is a staunch socialist, a nationalist and ex member of the 79 group.
No wonder people are turning off the idea of independence.
I have never given anyone negative rep because they disagree with me lol!
The only time I have given you negative rep was when you accused me of stealing time from my employer. I sent you a pm too. I thought that was bang out of order and I told you so openly. I am sure anyone who was bored enough to read the responses I made to your post won't be surprised that I gave you negative rep. I thought you deserved it then and I still think you deserved it now.
And I'm afraid you are wrong again rags... There is nothing little about me! And I would like to see anyone bully me and get away with it. I'm a big girl, big enough to stand up a) for what I believe in and B) to you. Both things which you really seem not to like. Still, I'm sure we would get on famously I'm real life so I'm not worried. Now I'm off to watch country file and midwives.
Catch you later ;)
Ps... If you REALLY want to discuss MY views on any of the issues you raised then ask them one by one and I'll tell you but as I think you just want to rant I ll leave you to it.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 20:05
I've never accused you of stealing from your employer, that was the bit when you decided that a comment about the charity sector was specifically aimed at you and decided to post a long rant after, all in caps ( which is considered shouting and against the forum rules ) and neg rep me. As said the debate is not about little ole me syndrome despite you constantly wanting to make it so. You also have the mendacity to start private messaging me about it when I've already publicly stated what the statement was not about you. Yes and I will keep pulling holes in your ramblings which if added up are enough to Bankrupt the country and cause enough job losses to create a new third world country. So keep to facts,keep to the debate, and stop trying to play the victim card at every turn.
Seems a lot of job losses...
So... If there are job losses in an independent Scotland blame the SNP... However... If there are job losses in the UK blame the unemployed themselves for being so lazy & feckless... Something doesn't add up there.
I've never accused you of stealing from your employer, that was the bit when you decided that a comment about the charity sector was specifically aimed at you and decided to post a long rant after, all in caps ( which is considered shouting and against the forum rules ) and neg rep me. As said the debate is not about little ole me syndrome despite you constantly wanting to make it so. You also have the mendacity to start private messaging me about it when I've already publicly stated what the statement was not about you. Yeah yeah... Wriggle wriggle. As for facts....let's see... You are awful touchy about capitals. Was my response ALL in capitals?
Oooooh ho ho ho.. ... What a snidey suggestive little post...Is that an attempt at a personal slur Ragnar? I work PART TIME and I am absolutely sure that you have the information already that i do not work on a Friday. That means this is a deliberate attempt to suggest that I am stealing time from my employer to other people when you already know that is not the case. That is a really unpleasant and unjustified thing to do. Would you like a copy of my time sheet?Again, if the post broke the rules report it!
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 20:17
So... If there are job losses in an independent Scotland blame the SNP... However... If there are job losses in the UK blame the unemployed themselves for being so lazy & feckless... Something doesn't add up there.That's a bit of a quantum leap Alcock. How does a political party deliberately setting a course which will lead to job losses equate to the unemployed being lazy and feckless. There is a vast difference between people who genuinely can't find work through no fault of their own and a political party deliberately destroying jobs through wild political ambition.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 20:22
Originally Posted by squidge
Dear God Almighty ... AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND OFFERS US THE OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A SOCIETY THAT IS FAIRER AND MORE EQUAL THAN THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN TODAY. I DONT BELIEVE WE HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY AS PART OF THE UK. WE WILL HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE IN AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND MONEY RAISED HERE WILL BE SPENT ON THE PRIORITIES DECIDED BY US WHEN WE VOTE IN OUR SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM...
Yes I'd say that's pretty much all in caps and you're fully aware it was on the other thread regarding independence. I will say this again this is a debate forum not the poor little ole me forum stop trying to turn it into all about you, your little outbursts are like Mr Salmonds everyone's a bully who disagrees with me. I've no desire to neg rep or report you I won't lower myself to your standards. You do so like being very selective and twisting facts.
Ahhhh .. You are right I had forgotten. I am so sorry. You must have been quite intimidated so I truly am sorry. It didn't make one iota of difference.. You still didn't listen sigh. I promise I won't do it again
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 20:38
Far from intimidated I do believe it was another orger who said you'd had an Ecky fit.
And I've not called you communist or pol pot it seems you have an inability to separate debate from personal comment. You keep throwing out your dreams of a socialist utopia but when you've been repeatedly called to task about how they will be funded you resort to the poor little me scenario as does Mr Salmond.
The reality is you've failed to answer pertinent questions by various orgers over and over. The other question is why should I take notice of your political aspirations they make no sense as they are text book socialism left over from the 70s they are distinctly unaffordable in our modern society and not everyone is quite the hard line socialist you are. I have no problems with social housing and NHS looking after the sick, disabled,pensioners or providing a safety net for those who are genuinely on hard times, what I do have issues with is a state that wants to run my life because it knows what's best for me if that equates with a hard line right winger in your books then that's probably most normal people who live work and breathe up here are. Aspirations outside of a state funded lifestyle does not make people right wing.
I absolutely DID have an ecky fit! I don't deny it, as I think I told you I was really cross with you. Fortunately I don't stay cross for any length of time. I DO try to answer questions that I am asked but if I have missed any then ask away and I am happy to give you my response.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 20:57
I absolutely DID have an ecky fit! I don't deny it, as I think I told you I was really cross with you. Fortunately I don't stay cross for any length of time. I DO try to answer questions that I am asked but if I have missed any then ask away and I am happy to give you my response.No questions at the moment, you've obfuscated enough times on currency, funding, the EU, NATO, oil wealth enough times for anyone to see there aren't any clear answers. I thought you were off to enjoy call the midwife, you may as well as it doesn't look like you'll get the BBC if you get independence either !
Oooohhhh Rags you are such a card!!!! It's recording just waiting for babies to finish their bath then hair drying then midwives. Out of interest, how can I obfuscate if I don't answer? Is what you really mean that you don't like my answers?
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 21:31
You mean answers like the one on currency, I prefer an new currency,which is a non answer as that hasn't been proffered as an option by the SNP. Your personal preference is not a statement on what will happen, its about as relevant as me saying I'd like pieces of eight both valid personal preferences but nothing to do with what will actually happen.
I do find it quite distasteful that you seem to think that the corporate world had some contingency plan for the world trade centres.
Sorry RR but these were actually implemented after the 1993 WTC bombing when the truck laden with explosives was parked under it. After Maddas Hussain said a few words about it and pissed off the president with his gloating, the contingency plans were drawn up for just about every major & important building in the US. There's even one for the statue of liberty and Alcatraz!.
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 22:46
Sorry RR but these were actually implemented after the 1993 WTC bombing when the truck laden with explosives was parked under it. After Maddas Hussain said a few words about it and pissed off the president with his gloating, the contingency plans were drawn up for just about every major & important building in the US. There's even one for the statue of liberty and Alcatraz!.I agree to a point but the contingency plans didn't cover the actual contingency that happened also it has nothing to do with the independence debate just a cheap rather nasty political point.
I agree to a point but the contingency plans didn't cover the actual contingency that happened also it has nothing to do with the independence debate just a cheap rather nasty political .
very true, but they only planned for bomb attacks, nobody thought there would ever be an opportunity to hijack a plane and fly it into them but yeah, it's got sod all to do with the indy vote!
RagnarRocks
02-Mar-14, 23:13
very true, but they only planned for bomb attacks, nobody thought there would ever be an opportunity to hijack a plane and fly it into them but yeah, it's got sod all to do with the indy vote!And there began the new world order of asymmetric warfare expect anything,anytime,anywhere from anyone with anything but its still got naff all to do with the indy debate agreed :0))
Mrs Bradey
02-Mar-14, 23:30
Meanwhile - today in Scotland.....:roll:And... And..... And....And Finally..... Thanks to http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/forget-the-dam-busters-iscotland-would-be-oil-rich-and-creditworthy-even-without-.23565915could , might, potential, might (again) and could (again) very good repetitive and nothing (zero) positive!
could , might, potential, might (again) and could (again) very good repetitive and nothing (zero) positive!
So, if that is what you think, kindly explain why you and pro-Unionists get all excited and gloaty (is there such a word?) every time any company/UK politician/EU politician...in fact any darn person you feel has any clout anywhere in the world, is reported in the MSM headlines as producing damning "facts" about the perils of Independence but never quite manage to notice the could , might, potential, might (again) and could (again) very good repetitive and nothing (zero) positive elements in those articles? That wouldn't be because uncertainties don't count if they are uncertainties which can be spun to help the NO campaign...and uncertainties are only a problem if they might auger well for YES? Is there not some inconsistency........even hypocrisy there?
RagnarRocks
03-Mar-14, 00:45
You seem to miss the point .
No to currency union ...a fact..contrary to the first minsters assurances.
Guaranteed entry into the EU...not a fact contrary to the first ministers assurances.
Companies making contingency plans to leave Scotland ...a Fact
Oil revenues and the proportion of oil fields kept under Scotland's control..not a fact...contrary to the first ministers assurances.
Funding of all the promised social schemes...Not a single fact just vague promises
It's not gloating its this key issue we are being asked to vote on the crucial issue of Independence by a party which has not even had the decency to give key facts clearly and precisely detailed, what we are being asked to do is vote on what increasingly appears to be half thought ideas which considering the first minister makes great sway of the fact he used to be an economist have no contingency plans.
The realities of whether Scotland is an Independent country are harsh material facts which any person with an ounce of democratic decency would put forward in a clear concise matter that the electorate could have faith in.
Instead we are told that most of the key issues are up for negotiation after the fact, and some of the ones which have been already decided aren't showing the way the first minister has assured us.
Now where is the hypocrisy in any of that.
65% looking to vote No
Only 17% looking to vote yes
That's a big change in public opinion recently, which shows the electorate of Scotland are seeing through this veil of political posturing for what it is the vain attempt of one man to etch his name in the history books regardless of the cost to voters of Scotland and the future generations.
Mrs Bradey
03-Mar-14, 09:29
So, if that is what you think, kindly explain why you and pro-Unionists get all excited and gloaty (is there such a word?) every time any company/UK politician/EU politician...in fact any darn person you feel has any clout anywhere in the world, is reported in the MSM headlines as producing damning "facts" about the perils of Independence but never quite manage to notice the could , might, potential, might (again) and could (again) very good repetitive and nothing (zero) positive elements in those articles? That wouldn't be because uncertainties don't count if they are uncertainties which can be spun to help the NO campaign...and uncertainties are only a problem if they might auger well for YES? Is there not some inconsistency........even hypocrisy there?I too am not sure "gloaty" is a real word. my reference to "might" "could" "potential" etc. was purely in relation to squidge's comments. the best asset for the NO campaign, is the YES campaign!
So, if that is what you think, kindly explain why you and pro-Unionists get all excited and gloaty (is there such a word?) every time any company/UK politician/EU politician...in fact any darn person you feel has any clout anywhere in the world, is reported in the MSM headlines as producing damning "facts" about the perils of Independence but never quite manage to notice the could , might, potential, might (again) and could (again) very good repetitive and nothing (zero) positive elements in those articles? That wouldn't be because uncertainties don't count if they are uncertainties which can be spun to help the NO campaign...and uncertainties are only a problem if they might auger well for YES? Is there not some inconsistency........even hypocrisy there?
Uncertainty in the positives being put forward by the yes camp can and will fragg up our lives. That's the difference.
And Shell. Double wammy as there was no significance to them divesting some North Sea assets. A foreign invester of nearly 100 years in the UK, and major player in the extraction of oil. Er..not happy.
And Shell. Double wammy as there was no significance to them divesting some North Sea assets. A foreign invester of nearly 100 years in the UK, and major player in the extraction of oil. Er..not happy.
That the same Shell CEO who also says that he wants the UK to stay in the EU? How unhappy does that uncertainty make him, then? Certainly not enough to warrant big scary headlines in the MSM! Seems to me that he'd prefer an Independent Scotland in the EU before a UK out of it in that case, as they are, as he says....a global business with feet planted firmly on both sides of the channel.. and ....UK's national interests best served by a close relationship with Europe.
The remark about Scotland was actually a secondary consideration in his statement, not the whole point of it.......if you had read it. But hey.......if Shell wants to sell up all its Scottish North Sea assets, I'm sure its shareholders will be ecstatic!
So we hear a lot about aspirations for social spending and engineering in an independent Scotland and that is very laudable. The damaging thing about the uncertainty surrounding the vote and afterward is with the people who will be paying for it. The businesss in Scotland. We know nothing of what is likely to happen to Tax, NI, Pensions, Rates etc., In short, the cost of doing business. This is what is causing business to make alternate plans.
So we hear a lot about aspirations for social spending and engineering in an independent Scotland and that is very laudable. The damaging thing about the uncertainty surrounding the vote and afterward is with the people who will be paying for it. The businesss in Scotland. We know nothing of what is likely to happen to Tax, NI, Pensions, Rates etc., In short, the cost of doing business. This is what is causing business to make alternate plans.
Of course they are......that is simply forward planning, but they know that until March 2016 everything is going to stay pretty much as such..and by then, there will be manifestos produced for the May 2016 elections, and there will be more idea of the result of negotiations/options. It seems to me one thing to register a company/part of a business, currently registered only in Scotland, in England or Wales, at relatively little cost, just in case......and another to spend thousands moving everything lock, stock and barrel to the South before even finding out what is proposed in an independent Scotland. Doesn't seem terribly business-like to me.
Funny nobody ever talks about the uncertainty of remaining in the Union.....as illustrated here http://moneyweek.com/endofbritain/ Now that is real scary uncertainty!
From your link Oddquine it means that we need to drastically cut all welfare spending as the taxing does not match what goes out. The SNP are certainly not talking about cutting welfare , just enlarging it
From your link Oddquine it means that we need to drastically cut all welfare spending as the taxing does not match what goes out. The SNP are certainly not talking about cutting welfare , just enlarging it
But that article is about the UK, with Scotland's input as still a part of the Union, not about an independent Scotland. An independent Scotland, even taking a share of the UK debt, will not be in as bad a place as the UK is in currently.....or the rUK would be in without Scotland's input.
We can avoid that specific uncertainty by voting for Independence.
No - the article was regarding all the other major countries that started down this path, not UK specific. The magnitude of the problem written about in the article would not be changed by a few small economic changes in Scotland , and it would be small in the
face of the huge debt. We want our cake and to eat it. Basically what it says is anyone putting forward welfare cuts will be voted out therefore nothing that needs to change will. The SNP know where their votes are and that's where the money will go
No - the article was regarding all the other major countries that started down this path, not UK specific. The magnitude of the problem written about in the article would not be changed by a few small economic changes in Scotland , and it would be small in the
face of the huge debt. We want our cake and to eat it. Basically what it says is anyone putting forward welfare cuts will be voted out therefore nothing that needs to change will. The SNP know where their votes are and that's where the money will go
So if it was not UK specific.........why was it called End of Britain......and why did it say In recorded economic history, every single country with debts as big as ours – every single one – has suffered a devastating economic collapse. There are NO exceptions.
and
Shockingly, our debt load is now on a scale comparable with one of the most frightening economic disasters of the 20th century…
We're talking about the Weimar Republic.
It wasn't talking about the end of the Union with Independence.......and not about an independent Scotland....how would the following be relevant to an independent Scotland? It is talking about the UK as it is now, including the oil and Scottish input.
Despite David Cameron's talk of "austerity", he's going to add an estimated £700 billion to the national debt in just five years. That's more than Tony Blair and Gordon Brown added to the national debt in eleven years. It's more than every British government of the past 100 years put together.
The fact is, when you look at our finances as a whole, the Coalition isn't cutting anything. State spending is going up… our national debt is going up… and our interest payments are going up.
By the next general election in 2015, our national debt is estimated to stand at almost £1.4 trillion
And......
Compared to the size of our economy, Britain is now one of the most heavily indebted countries in the Western world. That's official. Our total debts stand at more than FIVE TIMES what our entire economy is worth.
Proportionally, that's more debt than Italy… Portugal… Spain… and almost twice as much debt as Greece. Those are four countries already in the throes of financial crisis. We're the odd one out because we haven't collapsed – yet. But things can't stay that way for long.
You see, the only countries that have more debt than us are Japan, where the economy has stagnated for 20 years and the stock market has crashed by 75%... and Ireland, where the housing market has crashed 50%, and the government has been forced to accept a bailout.
Because when you add in all of Britain's "unfunded obligations" – promises the Government has made on things like public sector pensions – our debts swell to 900% of our economy.
and
If the UK had been a business or an individual, we'd have been declared bankrupt by now. We'd have been forced to sell our business premises or our home and would have been housed in a run-down flat long ago.
So you don't think it is about the UK? Really? And you don't think the best way to avoid this possibility taking Scotland with it is to vote to be independent of the incompetent politicians who have been "running" the country for decades?
So if it was not UK specific.........why was it called End of Britain......
That Money Week article has been around for ages. It has been used by various dodgy investments to drum up business. If you believe in it, a vote won't help, you'd be hoarding cans and fortifying.
I find it incredible that you seem to think that we will somehow get a different class of competant, ethical and well meaning politicians that can only be found in this part of the country.
I find it incredible that you seem to think that we will somehow get a different class of competant, ethical and well meaning politicians that can only be found in this part of the country.
Where have I ever said that? The most praise I have given Scottish politicians is that they can't be any worse than the Westminster versions......and I stand by that opinion.....even allowing for the attitude in Holyrood of the UK Unionist Scottish representatives.
While the voting system used in Scottish elections is maybe not the best PR system available, it is at least more democratic than FPTP.....and with Independence, I suspect there will be more consensus politics than the adversarial Westminster system, parachuted into Holyrood by the UK Unionist Scottish representatives, and currently so darn irritating. Have to say, as well, that, left to me, I'd remove the position of Party Whip and allow MSPs to vote for the benefit of their constituents and not just for that of their party. (I'd do the same in local Government as well)
I do think we are unlikely to see many, if any, majority Governments in an Independent Scotland,tbh......and I am not at all keen on formal coalitions on the lines of the Lab/LibDem ones up to 2007 or the current UK version. Seems to me if you can't get consensus on a policy, then the policy doesn't command majority support......and should fall...or be amended to something which will command a majority.
And in the end, if it comes to the crunch......much, much easier to congregate in Edinburgh to picket Holyrood in appreciable numbers, if they do take the proverbial......and be heard........than there would be even if the whole Scottish population headed down to Westminster and lobbied the politicians there. :D
I find it incredible that you seem to think that we will somehow get a different class of competant, ethical and well meaning politicians that can only be found in this part of the country.
An addendum to my previous post......and it can be said no better than Alex Salmond said it in his New statesman lecture the other day......so I quote......
Prof Tony Travers of the London School for Economics has said: “London is the dark star of the economy, inexorably sucking in resources, people and energy. Nobody quite knows how to control it.”
David Cameron argued before he became Prime Minister that “an economy with such a narrow foundation for growth is fundamentally wasteful and unstable.”
Yet his record is weaker than his words. A couple of years ago the Institute of Public Policy for the Regions published a report – “On the Wrong Track”. It found that public spending on major transport Infrastructure amounted to £2,600 per head in London– and £5 per head in the north east of England.
I’m First Minister of Scotland – meaning all of Scotland. If the government I lead were responsible for such massive disparities, we wouldn’t stand a chance of re-election.
And in the end.....that is what all political parties do, whichever country they are in..... as much or as little, as they can in order to be elected/re-elected. But, in the case of Scotland within the UK (and to be fair many areas outside the South East of England as well...there is no need to do much.......because re the Tories.....they know it won't get them votes/seats in predominantly NuLabour voting constituencies, so they concentrate the largesse where it will do them most good.......and NuLabour knows that even now, if they stick a red rosette on a donkey in the traditional Labour heartlands (as they often do, imo)...it will get elected.....so they have no real need to produce policies to benefit the whole country either.
Difference is, and I feel it will apply with any future Scottish Party of any colour in an Independent Scotland, all our votes will count....and all our MPs will be Scotland focused. There will be no Scottish Branches of UK focused parties, with their MPs just marking time until they are elevated to Westminster or the House of Lords.
What we vote in Scotland makes not a whit of difference in the UK General Election scheme of things..we can do better for ourselves if independent, I think....but at least certainly couldn't do worse.
An addendum to my previous post......and it can be said no better than Alex Salmond said it in his New statesman lecture the other day......so I quote......
Prof Tony Travers of the London School for Economics has said: “London is the dark star of the economy, inexorably sucking in resources, people and energy. Nobody quite knows how to control it.”
David Cameron argued before he became Prime Minister that “an economy with such a narrow foundation for growth is fundamentally wasteful and unstable.”
Yet his record is weaker than his words. A couple of years ago the Institute of Public Policy for the Regions published a report – “On the Wrong Track”. It found that public spending on major transport Infrastructure amounted to £2,600 per head in London– and £5 per head in the north east of England.
I’m First Minister of Scotland – meaning all of Scotland. If the government I lead were responsible for such massive disparities, we wouldn’t stand a chance of re-election.
And in the end.....that is what all political parties do, whichever country they are in..... as much or as little, as they can in order to be elected/re-elected. But, in the case of Scotland within the UK (and to be fair many areas outside the South East of England as well...there is no need to do much.......because re the Tories.....they know it won't get them votes/seats in predominantly NuLabour voting constituencies, so they concentrate the largesse where it will do them most good.......and NuLabour knows that even now, if they stick a red rosette on a donkey in the traditional Labour heartlands (as they often do, imo)...it will get elected.....so they have no real need to produce policies to benefit the whole country either.
Difference is, and I feel it will apply with any future Scottish Party of any colour in an Independent Scotland, all our votes will count....and all our MPs will be Scotland focused. There will be no Scottish Branches of UK focused parties, with their MPs just marking time until they are elevated to Westminster or the House of Lords.
What we vote in Scotland makes not a whit of difference in the UK General Election scheme of things..we can do better for ourselves if independent, I think....but at least certainly couldn't do worse.
Just picking up on the infrastructure spend. Devolved as you know. And guess what? The money is being spent on a new crossing for the Forth (the second one in 10 years) and trams in Edinburgh. How is that different to the spending on the London underground and commuter routes into London?
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