View Full Version : I give up and throw in the towel.
I am getting increasingly dismayed by the rhetoric being propounded by both sides in The Referendum debate.
I have yet to hear any argument by either side that I find convincing, reliable or factual.
I find the constant harping about Westminster, The Conservatives and today Margaret Thatcher, galling and in some cases bordering on racist .
I was however very surprised when I read "The Declaration of '45, " it seems to have a strange harmony to the ideals being propounded by The SNP.
I have a great respect for history, but we should move on, learn the lessons and strive for a better world not just hurl abuse at each other.
Well we are all entitled to our dreams.
What do you want to be convinced about?
I agree Lizz but one thing cannot be clouded by silly rhetoric and that is geography. Scotland is ~40% area of Great Britain but only has 8% of the population to maintain the same standard of proportionally larger transport links and communications. Then we'd need the same diplomatic service. It is a matter of size of scale meaning more taxation in an independent Scotland.
orkneycadian
25-Feb-14, 09:42
I agree Lizz. We were promised a referendum. Not this farce that we have had foisted on us, by an administration who seem to have nothing better to do (like run a government). In setting a date for a referendum way in the future, they have brought all this on themselves. They could have arranged the referendum, in little over a few weeks time, just like a general election.
We didn't have this farce with status quo, so its apparent that its all "Yes" related.
I am with you Lizz, the constant lying and posturing from our First minister, is becoming farcical, thankfully its is just making my resolve to vote No all the more stronger.
billmoseley
25-Feb-14, 16:15
i have stopped looking at most post to do with independence now and have decided that a week before i will come on and say how feel. What people seem to have forgotten is which ever way it goes we will still have live together.
I agree Lizz. We were promised a referendum. Not this farce that we have had foisted on us, by an administration who seem to have nothing better to do (like run a government). In setting a date for a referendum way in the future, they have brought all this on themselves. They could have arranged the referendum, in little over a few weeks time, just like a general election.
We didn't have this farce with status quo, so its apparent that its all "Yes" related.
Leave the Quo out of it! They've enough strife looking for the 4th chord.
oldchemist
25-Feb-14, 20:10
I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland.
Bobinovich
25-Feb-14, 20:31
I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom and it really isn't all as rosy as Westminster would like us believe, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland but the signs show plenty of potential if the people are willing to make that leap.
Fixed it for ya!
thing is if its a no vote i think wee better be prepared for a good walking over, so im going to vote yes, im not even listing to all the muck throwing i dont care what they have to say at the end of the day, when wee have own rule im sure wee will put foot to ass and kick them all out if they are no good, at least it will be our choice who is in, the way it is just now wee are Westminster`s puppets, i would say no though if wee got to stay united but governed by owner self's with no ties to Westminster rules
I am getting increasingly dismayed by the rhetoric being propounded by both sides in The Referendum debate.
I have yet to hear any argument by either side that I find convincing, reliable or factual.
I find the constant harping about Westminster, The Conservatives and today Margaret Thatcher, galling and in some cases bordering on racist .
I was however very surprised when I read "The Declaration of '45, " it seems to have a strange harmony to the ideals being propounded by The SNP.
I have a great respect for history, but we should move on, learn the lessons and strive for a better world not just hurl abuse at each other.
Well we are all entitled to our dreams.
Never throw in the towel Lizz, some of us have still got something to give. :)
RagnarRocks
26-Feb-14, 09:09
Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.
Mrs Bradey
26-Feb-14, 09:47
Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.none of the media handling, and childish politics of the referendum issue so far, has been impressive!!
weezer 316
26-Feb-14, 13:27
Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.
Wasn't too great although Lamont edged it I would say. Her jibe about Osbourne turning from someone who hates Scotland into Santa claus with a yes vote was superb, nothing sturgeon could say to it. They would be advised hammer away at the currency issue, not that the SNP will answer any questions on it anyway.
And its amazing how many non-snp supporters (allegedly) that are going to vote yes wont criticise this stance of theirs. The "we are being bullied", poor we us mantra is exactly what they want and all they have actually.
I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland.
I think that there is a third “fact” – 3) we don’t know how things will be in a post-no Scotland.
We “don’t know” potential voters in Scotland need a less simplistic (and perhaps less partial) analysis than that implied by oldchemist. It is this, and other, simplistic analyses that maintain the “I don’t know” view.
To the credit of the SNP government they have set out in some detail how they see Scotland moving on. The White paper has me amongst its critics but at least I have visibility of the SNP’s arguments.
The No campaign parties resolutely refuse to tell us what Scotland can expect from Westminster in the event of a No vote.
Possible scenarios:
1 More of the same – welfare and public service cuts, exit from Europe, strict limitations on immigration, ignoring tax avoidance and evasion. These are policies strongly driven by the Conservatives (aware of UKIP popularity in Tory constituencies), broadly supported by the Liberal Democrats and, I am sorry to say, New Labour. Little change is expected following the 2015 UK election irrespective of the complexion of the winner(s).
2 Pressures on Health and Education spending following the Westminster emphasis on privatising NHS services where they can and the enthusiastic promotion of “free” schools. Any reduction in spending in these sectors will have a knock-on effect on the Barnett formula for the Scottish block grant.
3 Removal, or modification, of the Barnett formula resulting in a reduction of the block grant.
4 Rescinding or redefinition of the Devolution settlement.
5 Increased powers under devolution.
I am sure that the good people of this forum can suggest/support other scenarios but what I have outlined demonstrates why the No campaign have done little to persuade me to their camp. The unwillingness of the No campaign parties to allow Devo Max or Devo Lite (however you care to name it) as a Referendum choice filled me with foreboding. It suggests that they are unwilling to commit themselves to anything.
Partan
RagnarRocks
26-Feb-14, 16:28
Groan ....loosing the will to live with these Yes campaigners...they just don't understand what throwing the towel in means..
porshiepoo
26-Feb-14, 17:41
I'm sick of it too. There's too much argueing that gets way too heated and downright nasty. If the SNP intended to divide the people in Scotland with those in England in hope of a yes vote then they're going about it the wrong way. The only divide I have seen is between Scotlands own people and unfortunately I don't think it will simmer down even once the vote is through - whichever way it goes.
I'm more than happy to have an intelligent debate on the subject but not with morons that are so obviously racist (either way) and are basing their votes mainly on that ignorant, unintelligent, old as the hills mentality.
Can you imagine the problems if someone who is a die-hard "YES" man and Scotland lose and then he finds out that half or maybe more of his mates or neighbours voted "NO". If that someone is the slightest wee bit unhinged, there could very likely be mayhem! I still reckon too that if the "NO" vote goes through, not only will we find it difficult to continue with Westminster but English people living up here might just possibly find it suddenly got a lot colder....
Can you imagine the problems if someone who is a die-hard "YES" man and Scotland lose and then he finds out that half or maybe more of his mates or neighbours voted "NO". If that someone is the slightest wee bit unhinged, there could very likely be mayhem! I still reckon too that if the "NO" vote goes through, not only will we find it difficult to continue with Westminster but English people living up here might just possibly find it suddenly got a lot colder....
That sounds a shade on the same lines as this The Independent article..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ukraine-is-a-country-divided-against-itself-watch-out-scotland-9144967.html
Think it's quite insulting myself..... a democratic vote is a democratic vote and we will have to live with the results........until the next time! :Razz I'm a die-hard YES woman, but I'm certainly not going to beat up my three cousins who intend to vote no. :roll:
I do think though that Independence is only a matter of time....after the patronising and arrogant kind of campaign the political nay-sayers have been putting on so far, the Union is broken past repair....and its end is only a matter of time..though if it doesn't happen this time round, it'll likely be too late for me to see it. :~(
Back in 2012, there was a bit in the Scotsman, quoting Peter Cruddas, saying, among other things He [Cameron] told me that he wants to fight to keep the Union… he told me that was, those were his true feelings, however, even if they’re not, we as a party have to be seen to be fighting to keep the Union together, even if we don’t agree with it, because, at the end of it all, if the Scots say ‘we’re out of here’ and they want to go independent, we can turn around and say it’s not what we wanted, it’s not what we campaigned for, you can’t have this, you can’t have that, and you can get on with it.”
I worry too. You only have to look around the world today (and not too far away) to see what can happen when a bunch of nutters don't get their own way.
RagnarRocks
26-Feb-14, 21:18
I was thinking the same thing myself today Ducati, maybe having served we've seen first hand the results of what can happen,everyone else just sit and think Oooh no we are far too civilised for that to happen here. Its all fine until the fringe elements don't get their own way then its look out time. At the end of the day whichever way the vote goes I will still be British.
It sounds like you have a misapprehension about me, I've never been in the military although family members have (in fact I am the first male in my family for at least 4 generations not to have been). However, tearing a country apart is never going to be the fluffy bunny process some seem to think. I'm old enough and ugly enough to understand that!
RagnarRocks
26-Feb-14, 23:15
My apologies and I wouldn't say you're that ugly lol
Ha! do want to borrow my glasses? :lol:
RagnarRocks
26-Feb-14, 23:18
Everything is relative :0))
AJacksonMan
04-Mar-14, 21:19
I am a yes person, but to me independence is a shot at gaining slightly more representative and perhaps even an answerable government. Due to the fact that MPs have to live in Westminster to fulfil their parliamentary duties means that far out communities such as ours don't get represented. This isn't the MP's fault it is a problem with the system and the way it is run. We know the democratic capitalist process rarely works because of the number of independences eg Ireland that have been won off of the back of near revolution. The BBC are feeding the general population better together oriented rubbish. They are happy to say 'we need answers' when if hey got them they wouldn't broadcast them. We have had sod all from the No side about their plans to rescue the UK from financial ruin, which is it's clear path. The UK is a corrupt, unrepresentative and archaic institution that needs sorting out big time, independence is a step in the right direction!
I am a yes person, but to me independence is a shot at gaining slightly more representative and perhaps even an answerable government. Due to the fact that MPs have to live in Westminster to fulfil their parliamentary duties means that far out communities such as ours don't get represented. This isn't the MP's fault it is a problem with the system and the way it is run. We know the democratic capitalist process rarely works because of the number of independences eg Ireland that have been won off of the back of near revolution. The BBC are feeding the general population better together oriented rubbish. They are happy to say 'we need answers' when if hey got them they wouldn't broadcast them. We have had sod all from the No side about their plans to rescue the UK from financial ruin, which is it's clear path. The UK is a corrupt, unrepresentative and archaic institution that needs sorting out big time, independence is a step in the right direction!
hear hear!!!
RagnarRocks
04-Mar-14, 21:29
Another day, another hole blown in Alex Salmond’s case for breaking up Britain. The IFS has today published its estimates (based on the OBR’s) for Scottish oil and gas revenues, and they’re less than half those of the SNP administration in Edinburgh.Salmond forecast oil and gas revenues of between £6.8 billion and £7.9 billion in 2016-17. The IFS puts it at £3.3 billion. Salmond’s best-case scenario for 2017-18 has Scotland with a deficit of 1.0 per cent of GDP; the IFS’s figures suggest that’ll be closer to 3.6 per cent of GDP. A country like Britain can ride out such fluctuations, but Salmond may find he’s swapping rule from London by rule by OPEC. On the basis of these new figures, the IFS has calculated that cutting an independent Scotland would have to keep cutting – if it didn’t, its deficit in 2018-19 would more than double. Salmond has complained long and loud about cuts made by the coalition in areas like welfare, but he should not pretend the fiscal options of an independent Scotland would be any more attractive.
A hole is blown in RR's argument. The explosive was in his parentheses. I quote "estimates (based on the OBR's)". We all know that the OBR is a creation of the Treasury controlled by George Osborne. Their predictions are always compromised by pre-knowledge of the answers expected by their employer. Garbage in, garbage out still resonates.
And today we have this http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-26443014 which says that Scottish Buziness Confidence is at a record high.
So the last few weeks we have seen the Westminster government tell us we have a significant amount of oil, we have had a credit rating agency tell us we should expect a top credit rating even without oil and we have had this report showing how high business confidence is in Scotland. Add to that the Ernst and Young report which says that Scotland is successfully attracting inward investment - in fact it is 2nd only to London and we have a picture of a country well placed for Independence. As for the OBR's predictions on oil revenue.... We'll it is worth pointing out that their forecasts have been criticised by the industry for being far too cautious, however 3.3 billion into Scotland's purse and the power to make our own decisions on budgets is more than we have now.
So we would have to cut spending. There is already a plan to cut spending, on Trident, on the high speed rail link, on London sewers: we will no longer have to spend millions on mitigating welfare reforms like the bedroom tax (this appears to be costing Scotland over £200 million alone) we will be saving around a billion on defence and STILL spending more on defence in Scotland than Westminster does.
So "only" £3 billion? Oh it's SUCH a burden!
Mrs Bradey
05-Mar-14, 09:45
And today we have this http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-26443014 which says that Scottish Buziness Confidence is at a record high. So the last few weeks we have seen the Westminster government tell us we have a significant amount of oil, we have had a credit rating agency tell us we should expect a top credit rating even without oil and we have had this report showing how high business confidence is in Scotland. Add to that the Ernst and Young report which says that Scotland is successfully attracting inward investment - in fact it is 2nd only to London and we have a picture of a country well placed for Independence. As for the OBR's predictions on oil revenue.... We'll it is worth pointing out that their forecasts have been criticised by the industry for being far too cautious, however 3.3 billion into Scotland's purse and the power to make our own decisions on budgets is more than we have now. So we would have to cut spending. There is already a plan to cut spending, on Trident, on the high speed rail link, on London sewers: we will no longer have to spend millions on mitigating welfare reforms like the bedroom tax (this appears to be costing Scotland over £200 million alone) we will be saving around a billion on defence and STILL spending more on defence in Scotland than Westminster does. So "only" £3 billion? Oh it's SUCH a burden!blimey, you only been at work 20 min and you on a break already! tut tut tut!
RagnarRocks
05-Mar-14, 09:57
Mrs Bradey .....My words of the day are Liar & Hypocrite ...:0)) not sure why I just felt they sat well together today
I know Mrs Bradey and guess what, I am still in bed too. How shocking is that lol.
Mrs Bradey .....My words of the day are Liar & Hypocrite ...:0)) not sure why I just felt they sat well together today
Congratulations RR. At a stroke you have raised the level of the debate. What has poor Mrs Bradey done that persuades you to describe her as a Liar and a Hypocrite?
RagnarRocks
05-Mar-14, 10:32
Congratulations RR. At a stroke you have raised the level of the debate. What has poor Mrs Bradey done that persuades you to describe her as a Liar and a Hypocrite?Mrs Bradey is not the one I'm referring to Partan, maybe I should of phrased it better my apologies for any misconception
Tubthumper
06-Mar-14, 13:23
Blimey, RR and Mrs B flung oot! I thought something smelt funny.
Anyhoo, don't give up and throw in the towel anyone, the debate should improve as we get closer in and the negotiation points start to become clear.
weezer 316
06-Mar-14, 16:13
Yeah the OBR's figures are defo skewed towards a no and you wouldn't catch an honest nationalist quoting them
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348/18
Just count the number of times the OBR is mentioned in here.
Economic case is lost (amazingly as this was the strongest card), and that goes alongside the currency debacle and the EU lies. No wonder the polls have widened in the past year.
Sooner this is over the better.
http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line
Crikey, ban happy around here recently! Seeing as the Crimea has called for a referendum vote on the 16, and will be Russian by the 17th (if not before). Why did wee Eck drag things out?
Blimey, RR and Mrs B flung oot! I thought something smelt funny.
Anyhoo, don't give up and throw in the towel anyone, the debate should improve as we get closer in and the negotiation points start to become clear.
What smelt funny?
Tubthumper
06-Mar-14, 19:07
I just thought RR was a bit too good to be true. And I don't think Mrs Bradey was actually an old lady...
I just thought RR was a bit too good to be true. And I don't think Mrs Bradey was actually an old lady...
Oh.........
we will no longer have to spend millions on mitigating welfare reforms like the bedroom tax (this appears to be costing Scotland over £200 million alone)
Just how many people in Scotland are in receipt of housing benefit and live in social housing and have a spare room? I thought this would be the exception, not the norm? It sounds to me like for £200 million you could just build them all their own house.
Approx. 4000 1 bedroom houses/flats could be built for this money.
It's not just the bedroom tax Ducati, it's the council tax, it's funding the Scottish welfare fund, it's maintaining the passported benefits that people should get, it's funding the Scottish welfare fund, it's providing advice services and support via CAB or local council income maximisation teams and so on. The bedroom tax alone is costing 50 million.
It's not just the bedroom tax Ducati, it's the council tax, it's funding the Scottish welfare fund, it's maintaining the passported benefits that people should get, it's funding the Scottish welfare fund, it's providing advice services and support via CAB or local council income maximisation teams and so on. The bedroom tax alone is costing 50 million.
Hmmm sounds like an awful lot of jobs for public servants.
No what it sounds like is an awful lot of policies that Scottish MPs didn't vote for and an awful lot of people who are glad that they live in a country that thinks they matter
No what it sounds like is an awful lot of policies that Scottish MPs didn't vote for and an awful lot of people who are glad that they live in a country that thinks they matter
And you think Eck and his cronies give a damn about the Scottish public? I think not.
Well let's see Golach ... The evidence is there for people to judge. Scotland has... Free personal care for the elderly, free tuition fees for students, free prescriptions. It has set money aside to reduce the burden of welfare cuts, bedroom tax, council tax, Scottish welfare fund, to ensure passported benefits like free school meals are maintained, it has a community jobs fund which is achieving really good results for unemployed young people, it has committed an independent Scotland to a constitution written in co operation with you and I and anyone else who wants a say, it has committed itself to abolishing bedroom tax, triple locking pensions, free childcare. If these policies are not about putting people at the centre then what are they about?
Well let's see Golach ... The evidence is there for people to judge. Scotland has... Free personal care for the elderly, free tuition fees for students, free prescriptions. It has set money aside to reduce the burden of welfare cuts, bedroom tax, council tax, Scottish welfare fund, to ensure passported benefits like free school meals are maintained, it has a community jobs fund which is achieving really good results for unemployed young people, it has committed an independent Scotland to a constitution written in co operation with you and I and anyone else who wants a say, it has committed itself to abolishing bedroom tax, triple locking pensions, free childcare. If these policies are not about putting people at the centre then what are they about?
So just handing out money to all and sundry. Excuse me for being a bit cynical.
Lol Ducati, I'm used to it
I am getting increasingly dismayed by the rhetoric being propounded by both sides in The Referendum debate.
I have yet to hear any argument by either side that I find convincing, reliable or factual.
I find the constant harping about Westminster, The Conservatives and today Margaret Thatcher, galling and in some cases bordering on racist .
I was however very surprised when I read "The Declaration of '45, " it seems to have a strange harmony to the ideals being propounded by The SNP.
I have a great respect for history, but we should move on, learn the lessons and strive for a better world not just hurl abuse at each other.
Well we are all entitled to our dreams.
You're right Lizz (Celtic mind?) so I'll join you; no more burble from me - seeing that these posters are banned, giving up, or just plain bored with the coming debacle I'm stopping too! (so there)
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