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Green_not_greed
19-Feb-14, 14:12
For anyone who'd like to say no to adding significant time on driving time to the central belt, there is a petition running at:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/STOP-A9-CAMERAS

ducati
19-Feb-14, 14:13
What's the hurry?

Big Gaz
19-Feb-14, 14:27
If inconsiderate and selfish drivers adhered to the speed limits as set by law instead of doing 80-100mph and recklessly at that speed too then there would be no need for the cameras. As it is, i do see a need for them as i am sick to death of being abused for driving within the limit and "holding" people back who given the slightest gap in the opposite traffic flow would zoom past me, one hand on the horn and the other giving it the "V" or finger. I've lost count of the idiots who were too involved in giving me abuse when they passed me that they failed to notice the other car heading straight for them and forcing them to swerve to miss the clown. All for what? a few minutes more in the pub??

RagnarRocks
19-Feb-14, 15:13
I tend to agree with you gaz you have to get a up to a fair old speed to make much of a difference to the total time on a journey but you'll hear all the arguments over why they should be allowed to speed. At the end of the day speed limits are there for a reason which is safety of all road users.

jax
19-Feb-14, 16:16
Why not just Police the road correctly or go the whole hog & fit compulsory speed limiters to all vehicles. No need for the cameras then

Green_not_greed
19-Feb-14, 16:33
This thread was started to alert folks to the A9 petition, not to condone speeding. Yes there are some idiots on the road who do 80+ mph. I'm not one of them. But I don't want to see 70mph stretches, or 60mph stretches of the current road further restricted, as has happened on other Scottish roads after fitting average speed cameras.

ducati
19-Feb-14, 16:37
Why not just Police the road correctly or go the whole hog & fit compulsory speed limiters to all vehicles. No need for the cameras then

Its ineficient. No one would buy expensive cars. There is a safety issue. etc etc etc. Just wait a bit, we will all be buying electric cars apparently that can't exeed the speed limit, for more than a couple of minutes anyway.

Not me, I'll be the last one on the planet driving a 500BHP V8. :lol:

jax
19-Feb-14, 17:06
Its ineficient. No one would buy expensive cars. There is a safety issue. etc etc etc. Just wait a bit, we will all be buying electric cars apparently that can't exeed the speed limit, for more than a couple of minutes anyway. Not me, I'll be the last one on the planet driving a 500BHP V8. :lol:Totally, cameras are just another nanny state thing. People should still be able to make choices. Makes me laugh whatever next, should have chipped me at birth as they'll never catch me now.......

luskentyre
19-Feb-14, 22:40
This thread was started to alert folks to the A9 petition, not to condone speeding.

It's tantamount to the same thing. It's a shame when you have to invest in technology to enforce existing laws but there are far too many tools (especially on the A9 it would appear) who think that speed limits don't apply to them.

mi16
19-Feb-14, 22:50
HGV drivers being the very worst, they rarely stick to the 40mph limit on the single carriageway sections

Mrs Bradey
19-Feb-14, 23:22
HGV drivers being the very worst, they rarely stick to the 40mph limit on the single carriageway sections hgv speed limit should be upped to 50mph on single carriageway A roads! they would then nite hold car drivers up as much. but I agree not many hgv drivers stick to the limit at present!

mi16
19-Feb-14, 23:30
hgv speed limit should be upped to 50mph on single carriageway A roads! they would then nite hold car drivers up as much. but I agree not many hgv drivers stick to the limit at present!Why do the police not enforce it?On what basis do you think the limit should be raised by 25% for HGV's?

Big Gaz
19-Feb-14, 23:43
The speed limit is being raised to 50mph for HGV's for a 3 year trial period.

mi16
19-Feb-14, 23:50
The speed limit is being raised to 50mph for HGV's for a 3 year trial period.Only on the A9 howeverWhy is the Hgv limit not enforced by the boys in blue?

grannymoose
20-Feb-14, 00:08
If inconsiderate and selfish drivers adhered to the speed limits as set by law instead of doing 80-100mph and recklessly at that speed too then there would be no need for the cameras. As it is, i do see a need for them as i am sick to death of being abused for driving within the limit and "holding" people back who given the slightest gap in the opposite traffic flow would zoom past me, one hand on the horn and the other giving it the "V" or finger. I've lost count of the idiots who were too involved in giving me abuse when they passed me that they failed to notice the other car heading straight for them and forcing them to swerve to miss the clown. All for what? a few minutes more in the pub??

same here. i make the trip to Inverness regular with children in the car, it's 60 mph. the times i have had cars up my ass so close there's no stopping distance at all! then they overtake and give me abuse, how long until my daughter who is 6 starts giving them the bird back instead of a wave is not to far away i fear. i hope they start at wick and end at Inverness!

Big Gaz
20-Feb-14, 00:10
Only on the A9 howeverWhy is the Hgv limit not enforced by the boys in blue?

Well considering we were on the subject of the A9, i didn't think i had to make it totally obvious that that was the road i meant in my comment......

As for speeding enforcement, it's a copper's call to make. Even though HGV drivers are breaking the law by exceeding the 40mph limit, there are police officers who will let it go if the flow of traffic is fine. I've personally been told by a traffic cop that if he spots a trucker doing 50 or less on the road, he won't stop it however if its doing full speed (56mph) he will pull it. I suppose it's down to whether or not they feel like it at the time. I admit i have exceeded the speed limit whilst driving my truck (not proud of it either) and previously i have given printouts to VOSA officers during routine spot checks and not had any complaints. One in particular spot check, just prior to being stopped, i was speeding and all they were interested in was whether or not i had taken sufficient rest in the last 48-72 hours, that the tyres, lights, markers and wheel nuts were secure and i had an HGV driving licence.

snow
20-Feb-14, 00:38
Thanks for the heads up on the petition. Signed and shared.

I never generally speed (only up to 10% over max., as that's what a chief police officer on 'This Morning' reckoned was within the law). However, I abhor the average speed cameras around Ayr, they make me well nervous. I was constantly checking my speedo if I got a clear stretch (which wasn't so very often because I was often stuck behind a van or lorry going much slower than they usually would).

They're also huge and lumbering and really unsightly. What a waste of 25million when apparently only an estimated 2% of deaths on the A9 are caused by speeding.

I for one am glad they've been delayed and there's a chance to stop them.

GSD
20-Feb-14, 10:33
HGV drivers being the very worst, they rarely stick to the 40mph limit on the single carriageway sections

Yes & think of this, HGV driver sees camera & drops speed to 40mph, car behind probably drops initially to 35mph *& gets stuck for half a mile at 35 - 40. he then sees a space & accelerates to 75mph to pass & contiues on at 65-75 mph until the end of the measured mile - goes through camera at 70 mph, his average speed will be measured at 55-60mph even though he has exceeded the speed limit, so average speed cameras will not stop people exceeding the speed limit just to overtake which is what I see is the main problem on the A9 - frustration.

Big Gaz
20-Feb-14, 11:30
Yes & think of this, HGV driver sees camera & drops speed to 40mph, car behind probably drops initially to 35mph *& gets stuck for half a mile at 35 - 40. he then sees a space & accelerates to 75mph to pass & contiues on at 65-75 mph until the end of the measured mile - goes through camera at 70 mph, his average speed will be measured at 55-60mph even though he has exceeded the speed limit, so average speed cameras will not stop people exceeding the speed limit just to overtake which is what I see is the main problem on the A9 - frustration.

How many drivers are rocket scientists then? The cameras don't work on a measured mile, they work on the basis that the distance between ANY two cameras is known and how long it will take you to travel that distance. Complete that distance any quicker and you get a ticket! it's all good and well screaming along at 70 then dropping your speed to below 40 to hope it works out at an average speed of 40 but you will get caught out. If the 1st and last camera over the entire stretch are the only ones working then you will have to do a maximum average of 40mph over your whole journey to avoid a ticket. Good luck on working out the math over a 100 mile stretch!
The original plan for the SPECS cameras were that say you left Land's End and travelled to John O'Groats all in the same day. You pass a camera on the way out of LE and a number of cameras along the route and a final camera on the way in to JOG. The computer will have recorded your number plate at every camera, worked out your route and if you travelled the distance in less time than calculated then you will get a ticket. It isn't set up this way but it is easy enough to do. We're bleating about the A9 here, what would it be like if the entire country was linked up as per the original plans?

mi16
20-Feb-14, 11:50
GPS transponder in each car would be a far cheaper option.
Make it an MOT requirement to have the device fitted and the government set up the software, bingo a ticket no matter where you are in the UK.
No need for all the camera networks.

Rheghead
20-Feb-14, 13:12
Only on the A9 howeverWhy is the Hgv limit not enforced by the boys in blue?

Speed cameras can only detect objects going over a certain speed, they can't differentiate between classes of vehicle. So the cameras are set to 60mph for cars. The hgvs can do 60mph as well without being caught.

Big Gaz
20-Feb-14, 14:47
Speed cameras can only detect objects going over a certain speed, they can't differentiate between classes of vehicle. So the cameras are set to 60mph for cars. The hgvs can do 60mph as well without being caught.

Sorry Rheghead but many cameras use an induction loop which is buried in the road, approximately half-way along the white markings. This detects the larger footprint of large vehicles and causes the camera to fire at the lower speed which applies to HGVs.

Rheghead
20-Feb-14, 15:08
interesting, thanks for the correction. You learn summat everyday.

Big Gaz
20-Feb-14, 15:11
interesting, thanks for the correction. You learn summat everyday.

Aye, it cost me 60 & 3 points to find that snippet of info myself :D

RagnarRocks
20-Feb-14, 15:43
Aye, it cost me 60 & 3 points to find that snippet of info myself :DYou're a very naughty boy :0))

Big Gaz
20-Feb-14, 15:55
You're a very naughty boy :0))

ooh matron....spank me! [lol]

Kenn
21-Feb-14, 01:40
Holyrood has mountains of money if Alex Salmond is to be believed so why not upgrade the whole of The A 9 to a dual carriageway?
In the meantime there should be a blitz on speeding drivers who not only have a suicide wish but endanger others using the road.
The signs are very clear as to when and where the road alternates between dual and single carriageway, have seen a few bad accidents along the road so maybe a test of any one convicted of speeding or dangerous driving should have their eye sight and ability to read challenged.

RagnarRocks
21-Feb-14, 07:43
The A9 is no doubt a dangerous bit of road if you're a maniac and can't drive properly in the first place I've driven up and down it enough time to have experienced beautifully sunny days to blizzards but it doesn't seem to effect those who believe the dual carriage sections are 200m longer than they actually are, or that speed limits apply to everyone but themselves. Its about time that people who wrack up more than their 12 points are tested to find if they are psychologically fit to drive and given a life time ban to save them placing everyone else at risk .

sids
21-Feb-14, 10:01
Silliest petition yet!

jax
21-Feb-14, 15:07
Yes the A9 is a dangerous road but I don't think the average speed cameras will make any difference to the inconsiderate idiots on the road. You will still be able to blast past when you've been stuck behind a daudler sightseeing and still be within the average speed.Policing the road is a much better idea. Its not speed that kills really its the idiot drivers, many of them taking chances because they are frustrated.

mi16
21-Feb-14, 17:06
there are only a few accident blackspots on the A9, these areas should be concentrated on not the entire stretch.
it will make the west coast road a decent option though

2little2late
21-Feb-14, 18:19
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this thread about a petition?

RagnarRocks
21-Feb-14, 18:24
Yes it is and this is a discussion weighing up the pros and cons before signing said petition..highly democratic

mi16
21-Feb-14, 19:23
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this thread about a petition?This is Caithness.org the subject topic matters not a jot

Kodiak
22-Feb-14, 13:29
What a waste of 25million when apparently only an estimated 2% of deaths on the A9 are caused by speeding.



This must be to most most Silly Statement I have ever read on the Org. It is OK for People to DIE while Driving on the A9 in an Accident which was caused by someone else Speeding because you think it is OK for them to DIE as only an estimated 2% of deaths on the A9 are caused by speeding.

Personally in my opinion if spending 25Million could save just ONE Life then that is money well spent.

Phill
22-Feb-14, 13:39
This issue I find traveling up and down the A9 is not speed, but the decision making process of people overtaking or pulling out. Yes, speed is a contributing factor, but this mantra on speed negates the true issue as the only interest to the Govt is direct cost. They know that cameras will get revenue, dualling costs money. It's got feck all to do with them saving lives.

If they were interested in that, they would change the driver licensing & education system.

sids
22-Feb-14, 16:13
Personally in my opinion if spending 25Million could save just ONE Life then that is money well spent.

Then close the road.

It would cost us all a fortune, but there would be no more A9 road deaths.

orkneycadian
23-Feb-14, 13:24
Sorry Rheghead but many cameras use an induction loop which is buried in the road, approximately half-way along the white markings. This detects the larger footprint of large vehicles and causes the camera to fire at the lower speed which applies to HGVs.

Not exactly rocket science for the system, having already read and interpreted the number plate, to draw the vehicle type from the database to see whether its a car (60 mph limit), Transit type van (50 mph limit) or HGV (40 mph limit, unless exempted to 50 as suggested above).

It would be interesting to see how a conviction would stand up if someone was charged for having an average speed less than the limit (say 60 mph). It would be impossible to prove that the driver actually exceeded 60 mph, and didn't actually maintain a constant and smooth speed of 60 mph all the way, which is possible, depending on the time of day, traffic, abilities of the driver, etc.

Big Gaz
23-Feb-14, 15:27
Not exactly rocket science for the system, having already read and interpreted the number plate, to draw the vehicle type from the database to see whether its a car (60 mph limit), Transit type van (50 mph limit) or HGV (40 mph limit, unless exempted to 50 as suggested above).

It would be interesting to see how a conviction would stand up if someone was charged for having an average speed less than the limit (say 60 mph). It would be impossible to prove that the driver actually exceeded 60 mph, and didn't actually maintain a constant and smooth speed of 60 mph all the way, which is possible, depending on the time of day, traffic, abilities of the driver, etc.

You misunderstood my post OC, the normal speed cameras are the ones with the induction loop and are standalone units in which the harddrive containing the evidence has to be swapped out for a fresh one every set period of time. You may have seen one at the side of the road which has been lowered to change the drive by an operator? It is the SOCAS average speed cameras which use the ANPR system and are linked throughout the length of the speed restriction. They cannot stop you exceeding the speed limit but if you are on a 10 mile stretch between two cameras then it means you have a minimum time allowance of 10 minutes to complete that stretch of the road. If you do it in 10 mins and 1 sec then all is good but do it in 9 mins 45 secs then you are deemed to have been speeding and will therefore get the ticket.

orkneycadian
23-Feb-14, 18:11
You misunderstood my post OC, the normal speed cameras are the ones with the induction loop and are standalone units in which the harddrive containing the evidence has to be swapped out for a fresh one every set period of time. You may have seen one at the side of the road which has been lowered to change the drive by an operator? It is the SOCAS average speed cameras which use the ANPR system and are linked throughout the length of the speed restriction. They cannot stop you exceeding the speed limit but if you are on a 10 mile stretch between two cameras then it means you have a minimum time allowance of 10 minutes to complete that stretch of the road. If you do it in 10 mins and 1 sec then all is good but do it in 9 mins 45 secs then you are deemed to have been speeding and will therefore get the ticket.

Not misunderstood as far as I am aware. The average speed cameras read your number plate dont they? So they can count you in at the start, out at the end and work out the difference in between? If they are reading and digitising your number plate, then its one step from referring to the DVLA database to see what kind of vehicle it is, and how long it should take to transit the section.

As for the time to transit, my understanding is that it is possible to commit an offence even if your average speed for the whole section is below the speed limit.

Phill
23-Feb-14, 18:17
As for the time to transit, my understanding is that it is possible to commit an offence even if your average speed for the whole section is below the speed limit.

Interesting!
How does that work?

orkneycadian
23-Feb-14, 18:21
Not sure, hence why I asked it. Have heard various stories of things like if your average speed is above 40 or 50, then they assume at some point, you must have been above 60 to get the average that high.

Bobinovich
23-Feb-14, 18:42
I think that sort of assumption would be very much open to appeal and being thrown out personally...

Phill
23-Feb-14, 18:46
Hmmm, the logic wouldn't follow to be able to secure a conviction. The 'average' speed would need to be worked out at the maximum permissible i.e. 60Mph and they must allow a small amount for discrepancy on speedo's etc.
I ain't gonna try and do the maths on it but legally you will have to be able to do 60 through an entire section at 60 and the result will be an average of 60! ?

I understand the logic of average speed cameras is that they promote driving a given speed over their range, rather than the roadside Gatso's that everyone blats upto then jumps on their brakes, before taking off at mach 4 again.

I do believe (from a friend :evil ) that the one's in Ayrshire set for 50 will go to at least 55.

ducati
23-Feb-14, 18:54
Not misunderstood as far as I am aware. The average speed cameras read your number plate dont they? So they can count you in at the start, out at the end and work out the difference in between? If they are reading and digitising your number plate, then its one step from referring to the DVLA database to see what kind of vehicle it is, and how long it should take to transit the section.

As for the time to transit, my understanding is that it is possible to commit an offence even if your average speed for the whole section is below the speed limit.

And if it is nicked, taxed, insured. Win win win. Bring it on.