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Rheghead
18-Feb-14, 12:44
Denmark has banned Kosher and Halal meat.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/denmark-bans-halal-and-kosher-slaughter-as-minister-says-animal-rights-come-before-religion-9135580.html?l;ksdf;

So do animal rights come before rights to observe religion?

sids
18-Feb-14, 13:10
Is it "do they," or "should they?"

And are we voting on the situation in Denmark, or elsewhere?

The animals' votes must be the ones that matter. Oh- and votes from religeous zealots.

golach
18-Feb-14, 15:00
I find the Danish a tad hypocritical banning the slaughter of animals in a certain way, when they shoot live pigs for army doctors to practice on, and kill a perfectly good Giraffe, and kill whales in the manner all shown below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26098935

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/pigs-strung-up-shot-train-3157055

http://www.campaign-whale.org/campaigns/the-faroes-cruel-whale-slaughter

Rheghead
18-Feb-14, 15:04
Does that mean that nobody or nothing can change for the better for fear of being accused of hypocrisy? It seems damned if you do and damned if you don't.

golach
18-Feb-14, 16:50
What animal rights did the Giraffe have, or the whales in the Faroe's have, or the pigs being shot at

_Ju_
18-Feb-14, 21:05
What animal rights did the Giraffe have, or the whales in the Faroe's have, or the pigs being shot at I'll give you the pigs and the giraffe, but the whales are the work of the Faroese not the Danish, Golash. Both consider themselves as distinct as the English and Scottish.
If Denmark is planing to ban or has banned halal and kosher then it is one ( and only one) step in the right direction. And better one step than none at all.

I hope that religious slaughter with no stunning is banned here too. It is unnecessary. Stunning does not impede religious rights from being performed and it does not stop the heart (unless it is stun to kill- usually only in chicken and large pig slaughterhouses) . The whole point of halal and kosher slaughter is very well bled carcases (ie: heart beating to push out all blood- death by exsanguination) because in hot climates with no refrigeration technology, meat would become very dangerous very quickly if improperly bled. But now we can stun animals without stopping the heart - so complete exsanguination is possible with stunning.

Phill
18-Feb-14, 21:29
Personally, I think religion is all utter cobblers and since the dawn of time has caused more grief, death, heartache, wars and hatred than anything else. So yes, animal rights before religious observation.

I'd ban religion in its organised environment and certainly reduce or limit the 'rights' that are claimed by some.

ducati
18-Feb-14, 21:30
I'll give you the pigs and the giraffe, but the whales are the work of the Faroese not the Danish, Golash. Both consider themselves as distinct as the English and Scottish.
If Denmark is planing to ban or has banned halal and kosher then it is one ( and only one) step in the right direction. And better one step than none at all.

I hope that religious slaughter with no stunning is banned here too. It is unnecessary. Stunning does not impede religious rights from being performed and it does not stop the heart (unless it is stun to kill- usually only in chicken and large pig slaughterhouses) . The whole point of halal and kosher slaughter is very well bled carcases (ie: heart beating to push out all blood- death by exsanguination) because in hot climates with no refrigeration technology, meat would become very dangerous very quickly if improperly bled. But now we can stun animals without stopping the heart - so complete exsanguination is possible with stunning.

Didn't really need to know all that. I'm against the exploitation of any animal for any reason so its a yes from me.

Mrs Bradey
18-Feb-14, 22:41
Personally, I think religion is all utter cobblers and since the dawn of time has caused more grief, death, heartache, wars and hatred than anything else. So yes, animal rights before religious observation.I'd ban religion in its organised environment and certainly reduce or limit the 'rights' that are claimed by some.here here! well said I totally agree!

Southern-Gal
18-Feb-14, 22:45
I think it is possible to observe religion without animals suffering.
The slaughter house we used to use simply had same slaughter house but a chap from the mosque used to come and pray whilst the halal lambs and sheep were done.

mi16
19-Feb-14, 09:23
The Danes are in Denmark and can do as they please, it is none of our business or concern.A pointless poll

jax
19-Feb-14, 09:59
I think it is possible to observe religion without animals suffering.The slaughter house we used to use simply had same slaughter house but a chap from the mosque used to come and pray whilst the halal lambs and sheep were done.How on earth can a prayer help when the animal has not been stunned, its just cruel.

Mrs Bradey
19-Feb-14, 10:05
I think it is possible to observe religion without animals suffering.The slaughter house we used to use simply had same slaughter house but a chap from the mosque used to come and pray whilst the halal lambs and sheep were done.what a ridiculous statement!! the "chap" from the mosque may offer a feeling if peace and humanity to the muslim end user, but I doubt it is any consolation to the poor beast as it bleeds out taking minutes to die whilst very conscious and aware of its fate!!!

ducati
19-Feb-14, 10:10
what a ridiculous statement!! the "chap" from the mosque may offer a feeling if peace and humanity to the muslim end user, but I doubt it is any consolation to the poor beast as it bleeds out taking minutes to die whilst very conscious and aware of its fate!!!

I think the point was the animal wasn't treated any differently.

Mrs Bradey
19-Feb-14, 10:11
The Danes are in Denmark and can do as they please, it is none of our business or concern.A pointless pollthis thread has nothing to do with Denmark. rheghead merely asks, "do animal rights come before rights to observe religion"? simple question and no mention of what the Danes wish to do. what is your opinion?

Southern-Gal
19-Feb-14, 12:05
I think the point was the animal wasn't treated any differently.

Quite so Ducati :)

The vet is in attendance and the animal is done with the bolt the same as the rest, the only difference is that a prayer is said to keep to the halal practise.

I would say 'ridiculous' is the amount of people who spout rubbish about things they have no personal experience or knowledge but just quote drivel they have found on the internet!

sids
19-Feb-14, 13:02
How on earth can a prayer help when the animal has not been stunned, its just cruel.

The benefit is not "on Earth."

jax
19-Feb-14, 16:09
Quite so Ducati :)The vet is in attendance and the animal is done with the bolt the same as the rest, the only difference is that a prayer is said to keep to the halal practise.I would say 'ridiculous' is the amount of people who spout rubbish about things they have no personal experience or knowledge but just quote drivel they have found on the internet!I'm certainly not spouting rubbish or drivel, proper Halal meat is killed with no stunning & throat cut to bleed. To see a pen full of sheep done in this was is cruel. Anyone who has any respect for animals would not slaughter in this way.

Mrs Bradey
19-Feb-14, 19:15
[QUOTE=ducati;1070952]I think the point was the animal wasn't treated any differently.[/QUOTEI think you will find that true "halal" (an Arabic word meaning "permissible") IS slaughtered and prepared differently to animals slaughtered for non halal meat. .... The slaughtering of an animal for halal meat is called "Zaihah". During Zaihah certain rules must be followed; .... 1. Allah's name must be pronounced during the slaughter. ...... 2. The instrument used must be very sharp to ensure humane slaughter (?) the animal must be slit at the throat. . .......3. The animal must NOT BE UNCONSCIOUS. . .....4. The animal must be hung upside down to bleed dry. Eating blood is not halal. .. ....5. These steps must be accomplished by a Muslim or the people of the book (( Christian or Jew ). ... as can be seen by these rules an animal that has been stunned before bleeding is not halal!

jax
19-Feb-14, 19:31
Mrs Bradey, my point exactly

Southern-Gal
19-Feb-14, 19:49
In recent times many people who eat halal meat have moved on and accept that modern slaughter methods are better for the animals. The slaughter house we used to use treated them in the exact same way as non halal except the chap from the mosque was there to pay whilst they were done. Times have moved on and there have been improvements.

_Ju_
19-Feb-14, 19:54
........ The animal must NOT BE UNCONSCIOUS. . .....
like many catholics use contraception, many muslims do not require the animals to retain consciousness and allow stunning prior to exsanguinating the animal.
Religious dictates are not dogma. If they were, children and women would be property and slavery the rule of law. Halal and kosher slaughter need to change. The historical reasons for it no longer exist.

mi16
19-Feb-14, 20:29
this thread has nothing to do with Denmark. rheghead merely asks, "do animal rights come before rights to observe religion"? simple question and no mention of what the Danes wish to do. what is your opinion?As all religion is a steaming pile of horse manure which is the root of a lot of the worlds troubles then obviously the animals treatment prior to death should be of the upmost importance.

Mrs Bradey
19-Feb-14, 20:33
like many catholics use contraception, many muslims do not require the animals to retain consciousness and allow stunning prior to exsanguinating the animal.Religious dictates are not dogma. If they were, children and women would be property and slavery the rule of law. Halal and kosher slaughter need to change. The historical reasons for it no longer exist.I think you will find that in many Muslim countries, this is exactly how women and children are viewed! in some cases the women being required to walk a set distance behind their man. those muslims that choose not to insist on unconsciousness during slaughter should be applauded, but they are not eating halal meat!

bekisman
19-Feb-14, 21:10
Blinking heck, I'm fully with you Rheggy!

luskentyre
19-Feb-14, 22:48
The Danes are in Denmark and can do as they please, it is none of our business or concern.A pointless poll

Really? Since when did geographical boundaries become a licence to do anything a country pleases?

It's only pointless if you're inherently insular in your thinking.

mi16
19-Feb-14, 23:10
Really? Since when did geographical boundaries become a licence to do anything a country pleases? It's only pointless if you're inherently insular in your thinking.See USA for further details, however before you fall off the high horse please take my post in context.

Southern-Gal
21-Feb-14, 11:30
Banning halal slaughter will be a step in the wrong direction. It will go on unlicensed in the future. No license means no monitoring.
Embracing other religions into the slaughter trade is the way forward for people who want to eat halal meat and for the animals that they eat.
People who want to slate halal meat and all that it stands for should remember that their menu does not include pork. Pigs are quite possibly the worst treated farm animal there is at the moment. They are the most intelligent and they live in the most inhumane conditions. They are a forest animal forced to live mostly on concrete and they are omnivores deprived of what they crave. They also get the worst deal in the slaughter process. They have an electric current shot through their head to disable them whilst they are bled to death. If you like your bacon, ham, pork, sausages and pork pies how can you attack the slaughter of halal meat? Pigs scream their heads off when the probe goes on. Nobody knows how much they are conscious of or for how long.
This link is not for the faint hearted so so if you opt to watch it be warned it is very graphic. It is filmed in USA. It shows what non halal animals go through.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec7_1376787902

Unless you are growing your own meat, eggs and milk or are strictly vegan or source your animal food very meticulously and expensively and never ever eat out then you are probably guilty of worse than eating halal meat!

Mrs Bradey
21-Feb-14, 11:31
In recent times many people who eat halal meat have moved on and accept that modern slaughter methods are better for the animals. The slaughter house we used to use treated them in the exact same way as non halal except the chap from the mosque was there to pay whilst they were done. Times have moved on and there have been improvements.times may have moved on, and there may have been improvements / westernisation of some Muslim believers. The leaders of the Muslim faith still hold strict views, and ( just like the Pope for the Catholics ) will not soften their stronghold over their flocks. and quite rightly too, in my opinion. if you believe, you follow the rules. if you don't believe, you need not follow the rules! If you do not like ( because of your faith ) the way animals are slaughtered, ie, not by Zabihah then there is no Muslim law (or in any other faith ) that says "you must eat meat"! many people survive without eating meat, some as part if their religious belief!

Mrs Bradey
21-Feb-14, 11:56
The link you posted, southern gal, was interesting. it shows bad practice in the USA. it is worth noting that most if these practices are illegal in the UK, as many of them are in the USA. there will always be people who abuse animals! one of the most distressing parts of the video was the killing of the FULLY CONSCIOUS cattle for HALAL meat! which is legal! but not in Denmark! so religion should not come before animal welfare!!!!

luskentyre
21-Feb-14, 12:15
Really? Since when did geographical boundaries become a licence to do anything a country pleases?

It's only pointless if you're inherently insular in your thinking.


See USA for further details, however before you fall off the high horse please take my post in context.

Yet people constantly question the USA's involvement in world affairs and their policies... I can't recall anyone ever claiming it's no one else's business what the USA do! What I'm trying to say is, if something is considered "wrong", then it's immaterial which country (or city, or house) it happens in.

mi16
21-Feb-14, 12:42
Yet people constantly question the USA's involvement in world affairs and their policies... I can't recall anyone ever claiming it's no one else's business what the USA do! What I'm trying to say is, if something is considered "wrong", then it's immaterial which country (or city, or house) it happens in.What's wrong in one country is not necessarily wrong in another.

Southern-Gal
21-Feb-14, 17:16
The link you posted, southern gal, was interesting. it shows bad practice in the USA. it is worth noting that most if these practices are illegal in the UK, as many of them are in the USA. there will always be people who abuse animals! one of the most distressing parts of the video was the killing of the FULLY CONSCIOUS cattle for HALAL meat! which is legal! but not in Denmark! so religion should not come before animal welfare!!!!

Yes it is in USA.
But how much meat is imported from countries with even worse standards for abattoirs?
Corned beef for instance, sold over here and probably in Denmark too.
No good banning halal slaughter if they are going to drive it underground or import halal slaughtered meat that had an even worse death. Better to deal with it head on, work with the people to improve standards.

I had a young hound die suddenly a few years back. I felt terrible as I had no idea why he had expired. Vet had a look to see what he had died of. Told me he had had a bleed, probably a weakness he already had and it had burst with the exertion of playing and running and if it was any consolation at all he had probably not known a thing, had been tired, drifted off in a sleep like state. Bleeding to death is not so bad, some suicides actually choose it. Being zapped through the head with electric cant be any better thats for sure.

What is needed is improved welfare conditions for all slaughter animals, not the targeting of a religion :) If the Danish authorities were setting out to improve slaughter across the board and were including halal slaughter that would be less controversial :)

Mrs Bradey
21-Feb-14, 18:38
Yes it is in USA.But how much meat is imported from countries with even worse standards for abattoirs?Corned beef for instance, sold over here and probably in Denmark too.No good banning halal slaughter if they are going to drive it underground or import halal slaughtered meat that had an even worse death. Better to deal with it head on, work with the people to improve standards.I had a young hound die suddenly a few years back. I felt terrible as I had no idea why he had expired. Vet had a look to see what he had died of. Told me he had had a bleed, probably a weakness he already had and it had burst with the exertion of playing and running and if it was any consolation at all he had probably not known a thing, had been tired, drifted off in a sleep like state. Bleeding to death is not so bad, some suicides actually choose it. Being zapped through the head with electric cant be any better thats for sure.What is needed is improved welfare conditions for all slaughter animals, not the targeting of a religion :) If the Danish authorities were setting out to improve slaughter across the board and were including halal slaughter that would be less controversial :) did you actually watch your link to the end? in the cattle section where they slaughtered cattle for HALAL meat by cutting its throat whilst fully CONSCIOUS , being left to stagger about in a very agitated state eventually falling to the floor and further thrashing about for sometime before expiring!! hardly drifting off in a sleep like state!! Britain has very high animal welfare standards and for that reason foreign meat should be avoided at all costs!

Sparrow
21-Feb-14, 20:54
Southern Gal I watched your link, not surprised by the bad practice doesn't make for nice viewing. I think Denmark has taken a good step forward in banning halal. Im against halal slaughter its not anything to do with religion its not humane to slaughter without stunning first. As you also mentioned halal consumers seem to accept stunning & just say a prayer so I think that is a good way forward, but its not proper halal meat.

Southern-Gal
21-Feb-14, 23:17
My point is they will not stop it they will simply stop seeing it. It will still go on. Just because the practise is no longer legal does not mean it wont happen.
If they worked with the religious leaders and agreed on a way forward, similar to the one used where we used to live the powers that be are more likely to improve the lot of the animals they eat. Do they think the people who eat halal meat in Denmark are going to go vegan? Or are they happy to import halal meat that had an even worse end?
Or do they want everyone who eats halal meat in Denmark to leave the country?
It is not realistic.

Molesting children is illegal. Does that mean there are no paedophiles? Or does it mean they do what they like behind closed doors?

jacko
21-Feb-14, 23:26
well , if i see it marked as Halal or kosher meat i just wont buy it .full stop .

Southern-Gal
21-Feb-14, 23:32
well , if i see it marked as Halal or kosher meat i just wont buy it .full stop .

Do you never eat takeaway?

luskentyre
22-Feb-14, 00:15
What's wrong in one country is not necessarily wrong in another.

No, you missed my point completely. Regional boundaries are irrelevant when we perceive something as fundamentally wrong.

If decapitating babies was the norm in Denmark, you'd think that was fine then? None of our business? Where morals are concerned, I believe that being a human being takes precedence over being a citizen of a particular place. That's why organisations such as Amnesty International, Compassion in World Farming etc. etc. exist.

mi16
22-Feb-14, 00:26
No, you missed my point completely. Regional boundaries are irrelevant when we perceive something as fundamentally wrong. If decapitating babies was the norm in Denmark, you'd think that was fine then? None of our business? Where morals are concerned, I believe that being a human being takes precedence over being a citizen of a particular place. That's why organisations such as Amnesty International, Compassion in World Farming etc. etc. exist.What is wrong to one human is not necessarily wrong to another

Dadie
22-Feb-14, 01:29
If they keep to the stunning rules etc that a "normal" slaughterhouse has to do ..whats the difference to the animal being dispatched normally..stunned n slit and an animal being dispatched normally with a priest saying a prayer? There are ways and means to keep the religious beliefs and the meat halal without contrivining the norm practice then its acceptable ...but without stunning its inhumane and that is what will happen if banned and it goes underground...and if it goes underground the meat may not fit the criteria for fit for consumption with drugs administered (needed for vet stuff)to the beast within the time limits for the drugs to be excreted etc as there isnt any accountability in blackmarket meat.

luskentyre
22-Feb-14, 01:32
No, you missed my point completely. Regional boundaries are irrelevant when we perceive something as fundamentally wrong.

If decapitating babies was the norm in Denmark, you'd think that was fine then? None of our business? Where morals are concerned, I believe that being a human being takes precedence over being a citizen of a particular place. That's why organisations such as Amnesty International, Compassion in World Farming etc. etc. exist.


What is wrong to one human is not necessarily wrong to another

Honestly - it's like trying to reason with a housebrick, When you've read (and understood) my comment, then feel free to reply.

mi16
22-Feb-14, 01:42
Honestly - it's like trying to reason with a housebrick, When you've read (and understood) my comment, then feel free to reply.Who is WE in your comment?The org?

luskentyre
22-Feb-14, 01:47
No, you missed my point completely. Regional boundaries are irrelevant when we perceive something as fundamentally wrong.

If decapitating babies was the norm in Denmark, you'd think that was fine then? None of our business? Where morals are concerned, I believe that being a human being takes precedence over being a citizen of a particular place. That's why organisations such as Amnesty International, Compassion in World Farming etc. etc. exist.


What is wrong to one human is not necessarily wrong to another


Honestly - it's like trying to reason with a housebrick, When you've read (and understood) my comment, then feel free to reply.


Who is WE in your comment?The org?

Oh no one special, just the rest of the human race... How about you try and expand your frame of reference eh?

mi16
22-Feb-14, 09:04
Clearly the halal and kosher eating folks do not find it unacceptable so your entire human race comment is seriously flawed

Southern-Gal
22-Feb-14, 09:27
If they keep to the stunning rules etc that a "normal" slaughterhouse has to do ..whats the difference to the animal being dispatched normally..stunned n slit and an animal being dispatched normally with a priest saying a prayer? There are ways and means to keep the religious beliefs and the meat halal without contrivining the norm practice then its acceptable ...but without stunning its inhumane and that is what will happen if banned and it goes underground...and if it goes underground the meat may not fit the criteria for fit for consumption with drugs administered (needed for vet stuff)to the beast within the time limits for the drugs to be excreted etc as there isnt any accountability in blackmarket meat.

My thoughts exactly Dadie :)

I don't like the traditional halal slaughter any more than the next person but keep it in the slaughter houses where it can be monitored and improved upon and there is hope to improve it over time. Drive it underground and all hope of controlling and monitoring it is gone.

There is also the attack on a religion to consider. It could be said that some would attack the practise because they are racist and any handle on that will be useful. How much Danish bacon does Denmark export a year? What will the income from that be worth? And coinncidentally a ban on halal slaughter will not affect it at all ;)

The point of posting the clip is not to prove that halal slaughter is nice and fluffy, it was to show that there is bad slaughter everywhere, no matter if religion is involved. And to touch a few consciences of those who like to have a stab at halal slaughter whilst they themselves tuck into cheap bacon and chicken believing their halo is secure.

Takeaway food only exists where cheap meat can be sourced. The market is too competitive for the owners to source their meat ethically. So if you eat takeaway from a takeaway that has any meat in it you are likely fuelling the problem. Hot dogs, hamburgers, McDonalds, Chinese food and meat pies and other pastries, they all contain meat bought as cheaply as possible. Meat from animals that possibly had a much worse life and slaughter than a lot of halal meat.

There are Jewish and Muslim people everywhere and not being able to source Kosher and halal meat LEGALLY surely has to be a step in the wrong direction. Unless your name is Hitler.
If I had a disabled vegan in my care and I forced him to eat meat and meat products or do without I would quite rightly be slammed for it. Kosher and Halal are law for those who observe it.

In answer to the question is religion more important than animal welfare? No I don't think it is more important but I do think if the authorities worked with Muslims and Jews then a compromise could be reached. One where animal welfare, which is important to us, and religion which is important to them, could be balanced more fairly and effectively than a ban.

jax
22-Feb-14, 10:37
Do you honestly think that animals deemed for halal slaughter have had a better life than others? Most poor looking weak lambs get bought cheaply for halal slaughter as that market won't pay premium!! The prime goes for proper meat. Perhaps you should take the halo off halal and be realistic. How's about female circumsision, is that acceptable because of a specific religious belief??? Get a grip.

Mrs Bradey
22-Feb-14, 10:40
If they keep to the stunning rules etc that a "normal" slaughterhouse has to do ..whats the difference to the animal being dispatched normally..stunned n slit and an animal being dispatched normally with a priest saying a prayer? There are ways and means to keep the religious beliefs and the meat halal without contrivining the norm practice then its acceptable ...but without stunning its inhumane and that is what will happen if banned and it goes underground...and if it goes underground the meat may not fit the criteria for fit for consumption with drugs administered (needed for vet stuff)to the beast within the time limits for the drugs to be excreted etc as there isnt any accountability in blackmarket meat.That's the point! HALAL slaughter "Zabihah" is NOT the same as normal slaughtering practice there are two main differences. firstly Allah's name is pronounced in a prayer at the point of cutting, secondly, the animal is bleed to death Fully CONSCIOUS! you tell me the ways and means to carry out "normal" practice slaughtering and still have an acceptable HALAL meat product!?!

jacko
22-Feb-14, 10:45
Do you never eat takeaway?

easy answer . nope . we cook at home . eat at home unless were dining out . i/e resturaunt .hotel .
but i see your point .

Sparrow
22-Feb-14, 10:57
If halal meat was the only meat available in the shops I would not eat it or buy it. I eat take away very rarely & choose a meal which I consider to be the most welfare friendly. I produce meat & I purposely do not send any livestock off around the Muslim & Jewish festive periods. Welfare & Slaughter practices should be maintained.

Mrs Bradey
22-Feb-14, 10:59
Well well, sotherngal you seem to have back peddled faster than your average solicitor!!! you now seem to accept that HALAL slaughtering is not acceptable in the long term. it should be banned and church leaders should be told it is not acceptable kill animals in thus manner. a complete ban on the import and sale of HALAL meat is the only solution! with electronic tagging and modern record keeping in this country it should easily be possible to ensure all animals are slaughtered at proper facilities and correctly!! there should be NO COMPROMISE with animal welfare to the end!

Mrs Bradey
22-Feb-14, 11:07
Do you honestly think that animals deemed for halal slaughter have had a better life than others? Most poor looking weak lambs get bought cheaply for halal slaughter as that market won't pay premium!! The prime goes for proper meat. Perhaps you should take the halo off halal and be realistic. How's about female circumsision, is that acceptable because of a specific religious belief??? Get a grip.exactly jax ! not only should religious belief not come before animal rights, it should not come before human rights either! but as mi16 states what's acceptable in one country may be deplored in another!

Southern-Gal
22-Feb-14, 17:48
Well well, sotherngal you seem to have back peddled faster than your average solicitor!!! you now seem to accept that HALAL slaughtering is not acceptable in the long term. it should be banned and church leaders should be told it is not acceptable kill animals in thus manner. a complete ban on the import and sale of HALAL meat is the only solution! with electronic tagging and modern record keeping in this country it should easily be possible to ensure all animals are slaughtered at proper facilities and correctly!! there should be NO COMPROMISE with animal welfare to the end!

No back peddling at all.
I do not think a ban will help animal welfare, in fact I think it could make things worse for them :)
Horses being shipped abroad for slaughter was stopped a good few years ago and that should have been a good thing except it is not. There have never been more cruelty cases in the horse world than there is now. And those that do go across to the continent for killing now go on an even longer trip via Ireland on an even longer trip. The shipping alive ban was brought in to improve welfare for horses and it has made things a whole lot worse :(

Sparrow
22-Feb-14, 18:07
No back peddling at all.I do not think a ban will help animal welfare, in fact I think it could make things worse for them :)Horses being shipped abroad for slaughter was stopped a good few years ago and that should have been a good thing except it is not. There have never been more cruelty cases in the horse world than there is now. And those that do go across to the continent for killing now go on an even longer trip via Ireland on an even longer trip. The shipping alive ban was brought in to improve welfare for horses and it has made things a whole lot worse :(live transport for slaughter animals is not good for animal welfare. Anyone who has experience of this knows the stress & weight losses. Animals should be slaughtered at the nearest facility. Just because the UK doesn't eat horse meat it doesn't mean & our standards are high for slaughter, that its ethical to live ship abroad. Out of site out of mind perhaps? Poor welfare of horses in this country as too many are being bred. Its not humane to transport any animal hundreds of miles just to have it slaughtered.

Southern-Gal
22-Feb-14, 19:26
Could not agree more!
But they are being shipped abroad through Ireland. And they are suffering in their thousands, loads of cob bred horses, far too many of them suffering starvation and hunger because there is no place for them now and all the pet homes are either full or skint.

Mrs Bradey
22-Feb-14, 20:48
Could not agree more! But they are being shipped abroad through Ireland. And they are suffering in their thousands, loads of cob bred horses, far too many of them suffering starvation and hunger because there is no place for them now and all the pet homes are either full or skint.as we in the UK have no powers over what happens in Ireland, your point, however correct, is irrelevant. I blame the indiscriminate breeding of horses, dogs and cats, for the surplus of these animals. they fill up rescue facilities, and are eventually discarded like rubbish.

luskentyre
23-Feb-14, 01:14
Clearly the halal and kosher eating folks do not find it unacceptable so your entire human race comment is seriously flawed

You're obviously struggling a bit so I'll try and put this simply for you... Imagine your neighbour was in the habit of beating up his wife - would that be acceptable? None of your business? I'm sure wife-beaters around the world wouldn't see a problem with it but that doesn't mean others have to sit by and let it happen. They can object and regard it as uncivilised. They could even intervene because they regard it as abhorrent.

As I mentioned before (and you conveniently ignored), many organisations exist which seek to allow all species the same commonly accepted rights across the globe. Simple borders cannot be regarded as an excuse for cruelty or abuse of any kind. Let me ask you a question - are you perfectly happy for some cultures to actively promote female genital mutilation? Is the subjugation of any individual or group perfectly acceptable in your books as long as it doesn't happen in your house?

Mrs Bradey
23-Feb-14, 10:22
You're obviously struggling a bit so I'll try and put this simply for you... Imagine your neighbour was in the habit of beating up his wife - would that be acceptable? None of your business? I'm sure wife-beaters around the world wouldn't see a problem with it but that doesn't mean others have to sit by and let it happen. They can object and regard it as uncivilised. They could even intervene because they regard it as abhorrent.As I mentioned before (and you conveniently ignored), many organisations exist which seek to allow all species the same commonly accepted rights across the globe. Simple borders cannot be regarded as an excuse for cruelty or abuse of any kind. Let me ask you a question - are you perfectly happy for some cultures to actively promote female genital mutilation? Is the subjugation of any individual or group perfectly acceptable in your books as long as it doesn't happen in your house?I sort if agree, but if we use the wife beating analogy, and in the context of horses exported through Ireland. we need the co-operation of the wife (Ireland) in order to be able to intervene and assist, or prosecute!

orkneycadian
23-Feb-14, 13:58
All this is nothing on the standards of upbringing, welfare, slaughter and health of all the meat that is illicitly imported into this country for religious purposes.

Mrs Bradey
23-Feb-14, 15:03
All this is nothing on the standards of upbringing, welfare, slaughter and health of all the meat that is illicitly imported into this country for religious purposes.I totally agree! there is all sorts of tropical "jungle meat" smuggled into the UK , as you say. the hygiene and welfare standards or lack of, will never be fully known! the banning of the slaughter, sale and import of HALAL meat in the UK would be a good step forward. perhaps religious leaders in the UK could be made to understand and accept this, as being better for the animals! but I doubt they will listen!

jax
25-Feb-14, 13:54
Quite an interesting debate on radio 2 about halal slaughter just now

mi16
25-Feb-14, 14:25
I totally agree! there is all sorts of tropical "jungle meat" smuggled into the UK , as you say. the hygiene and welfare standards or lack of, will never be fully known! the banning of the slaughter, sale and import of HALAL meat in the UK would be a good step forward. perhaps religious leaders in the UK could be made to understand and accept this, as being better for the animals! but I doubt they will listen!

what "jungle meat" exactly is smuggled into the UK?

RagnarRocks
25-Feb-14, 14:33
what "jungle meat" exactly is smuggled into the UK?You get quite a bit smuggled in from the African continent primates and monkeys along with various other animals eaten out that way

Mrs Bradey
25-Feb-14, 19:11
what "jungle meat" exactly is smuggled into the UK?water buffalo, monkey, snake meat! I watched an interesting programme about this some time ago!

Southern-Gal
09-Mar-14, 23:17
Did you see Country File on TV tonight. Quite a good coverage of the halal slaughter I thought, very informative.
So it seems that a lot of the people who eat halal are already accepting stunning before slaughter, as I said.
And the real problem seems to be kosher meat, they totally forbid stunning of any type before slaughter.
I wonder if muslims can see that compromise is the way forward to avoid an outright ban.
And yes I knew that certain ethnic groups 'do not eat the back end of an animal or a fish without scales' and that we are all eating halal meat very regularly unless we are vegetarian.
So if the method of killing was displayed on the box and not a reference to the religion would that not be better?