View Full Version : The Org Poll on Independence
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 20:22
So lets see how we orgers decide a quick poll to see how it goes
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 20:55
Well its not so close at the moment 3 to 1
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 21:23
Dont know (yet).
No I will not be voting for independence
The org polls are always closer than the National polls. I think we had a yes one recently.:Razz
I'd be interested in seeing local debates with invited guest speakers from interested groups or nationally recognisible MSPs to debate how Scottish Independence will affect us on a local level.
How will the budgets change for local councils?
How will local taxation be calculated?
How will the Scottish government implement any action plans to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels?
How will transport and communication change under an independent Scotland?
What value does an independent Scotland place on areas of outstanding beauty and Heritage?
How will Caithness benefit from job creation as a result of different policy making?
changilass
10-Feb-14, 14:39
You don't have an option for 'none of your biddy business'!
How will Caithness benefit from job creation as a result of different policy making?
This is a serious discussion thread and you go and ruin it by cracking jokes like this....tch tch...Oh Rheghead......[lol]
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 16:31
You don't have an option for 'none of your biddy business'!Yup there is its called ignore it:0)
Looking at the poll results so far it does raise a problem in my mind. If 51% vote yes, it means that a very small minority of people will have decided for 49% of the population who wish to remain in the United Kingdom. Even if it was 56-65% for a yes vote the same remains true in my opinion. Surely something as important as Independence the bar should be far higher - something like a 80% or more required for a yes vote to get independence.
Just my opinion so please do not shoot the messenger!
I'd be interested in seeing local debates with invited guest speakers from interested groups or nationally recognisible MSPs to debate how Scottish Independence will affect us on a local level.
How will the budgets change for local councils?
How will local taxation be calculated?
How will the Scottish government implement any action plans to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels?
How will transport and communication change under an independent Scotland?
What value does an independent Scotland place on areas of outstanding beauty and Heritage?
How will Caithness benefit from job creation as a result of different policy making?
There is a meeting arranged for the 7th March..in the Weigh inn, in Thurso..starts at 7pm..
There you go folks I might even make that day the day I have to come north to work - Anyone for dinner?
Looking at the poll results so far it does raise a problem in my mind. If 51% vote yes, it means that a very small minority of people will have decided for 49% of the population who wish to remain in the United Kingdom. Even if it was 56-65% for a yes vote the same remains true in my opinion. Surely something as important as Independence the bar should be far higher - something like a 80% or more required for a yes vote to get independence.
Just my opinion so please do not shoot the messenger!
We had a similar stitch-up like the one you are suggesting back in 1979 - the 40% rule.
Shameful!
We had a similar stitch-up like the one you are suggesting back in 1979 - the 40% rule.
Shameful!
I am meaning 80% of the people that vote, not of the electorate, if people do not bother to vote then that is their choice.
Personally i think everyone in Scotland who is entitled to vote, should have to vote. That way it is a true and fair vote of either yes, no or undecided which should all be on the ballot paper too. Proxy & postal votes included so there is no excuse not to vote either.
Personally i think everyone in Scotland who is entitled to vote, should have to vote. That way it is a true and fair vote of either yes, no or undecided which should all be on the ballot paper too. Proxy & postal votes included so there is no excuse not to vote either.Postal votes a great idea for people wanting to sell their votes on eBay....lol
Interesting that the undecideds are quite statistically small. Every effort should be made by both sides to persuade these but in the end it won't really matter.
Postal votes a great idea for people wanting to sell their votes on eBay....lol
I.D. is a wonderful thing [smirk]......i'll give you 3p and a toffee for yours
Mrs Bradey
11-Feb-14, 04:21
Looking at the poll results so far it does raise a problem in my mind. If 51% vote yes, it means that a very small minority of people will have decided for 49% of the population who wish to remain in the United Kingdom. Even if it was 56-65% for a yes vote the same remains true in my opinion. Surely something as important as Independence the bar should be far higher - something like a 80% or more required for a yes vote to get independence.Just my opinion so please do not shoot the messenger!well Mr messenger I agree!
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 09:23
And all of a sudden the poll stats take a massive jump overnight methinks someone is doing the multiple accounts thing again
A bit desperate if that is the case RR. Do you think they can't even bare to look at a poll that doesn't agree with them. This reflects the sort of behaviour you see in the worst dictatorships.
Desperate? behaviour seen in a dictatorships? err...... Ducati, did you mean to comment on the org post or were you tabbed over to a page on the "Dictatorship Weekly Journal" and reading an article on Mugabe and his pet budgie and meant to comment on there? :lol:
And all of a sudden the poll stats take a massive jump overnight methinks someone is doing the multiple accounts thing again
sock puppets on multiple accounts??? Jings! Crivvens! help ma boab! sock puppets!!! how dare they tarnish the poll!.
Lets hope they ALL vote YES when the time comes! [smirk]
Desperate? behaviour seen in a dictatorships? err...... Ducati, did you mean to comment on the org post or were you tabbed over to a page on the "Dictatorship Weekly Journal" and reading an article on Mugabe and his pet budgie and meant to comment on there? :lol:
Ooopsee! :lol:
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 10:29
I did hear that down at the Politburo the Comrades have decided that to benefit the democratic system and make sure that fairness is seen to be done each one of their members is entitled to Three Votes thus ensuring that each sock puppet is fairly represented.
Shh comrade! not so loud! :eek:
Aaagh it's a dead heat! [lol]
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 10:39
I rest my case. Shows the lengths they are prepared to go all in the name of fairness. Hence I vote a resounding NO as you can't trust them to be honest
I rest my case. Shows the lengths they are prepared to go all in the name of fairness. Hence I vote a resounding NO as you can't trust them to be honest
Hmm, so all YES voters are dishonest, unimaginative, unfair, own multiple sock-puppets and are right-wing communists eh?
can i have some of your breakfast cereal today please RR, there must be something in it that isn't in mine [lol]
You rest your case lol lol lol. Cant bear to see a poll which doesnt agree with a yes vote? Ragnar, honey, thats ALL we evet see. I am sure that if you email Niall he will be able to let us know if there has been unusual activity which might indicate sock puppets. If you have evidence of this then i would be interested to know. I was here at 6 amish this morning and didnt notice the poll results being this way at that point. Maybe people have woken up this morning read the posts and seen that Charlie Kennedy called last night for BT to start to show a positive case for remaining in the union and yet failed to come up with one. Coming on top of the speech by David Cameron - in london, alistair Darling speaking on London radio today and the cringeworthy performance of John Barrymore for BTs Burns night promotion, i wouldnt be surprised if people cant vote YES quick enough!
EEK!!!! THE YES VOTE ARE WINNING!!!!!! pull your socks up Ragnar mah boy, you got some campaigning to do! :Razz
I.D. is a wonderful thing [smirk]......i'll give you 3p and a toffee for yoursA toffee.......very tempted
EEK!!!! THE YES VOTE ARE WINNING!!!!!! pull your socks up Ragnar mah boy, you got some campaigning to do! :Razz
Well thats it then! [lol]
A toffee.......very tempted
only the best 2p Highland Daintee of course. Has to be a Scottish one, none of that Werther's unoriginal in my pocket!
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 11:58
I can't say anything in case commissar Squidge goes into apoplexy as of course its totally unknown on the org for members to have multiple accounts :0))
Level peggin again.....just how many mates have you phoned to vote today RR? :cool:
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 13:25
Well this could be amusing I wonder what will happen if it is a 50/50 split on the day. Will they divide Scotland in half and have an independent half and a union half. Then we could argue whether its a north/ south or and east/west split.I have no desire to go down the route of Gerrymandering does seem a bit of a convenient coincidence that its now become neck a neck. There's probably some deluded little troll having fun
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 13:29
Hmm, so all YES voters are dishonest, unimaginative, unfair, own multiple sock-puppets and are right-wing communists eh? can i have some of your breakfast cereal today please RR, there must be something in it that isn't in mine [lol]Nice big bowl of commie flakes :0))
Nice big bowl of commie flakes :0))
There was me thinking it was porridge with salt from the slave mines too.....[smirk]
There's probably some deluded little troll having fun
Which one RR? there's loads of em on here
22734
Trollolololol
trollolol neck and green neck again [lol]
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 13:58
Och well it keeps them amused and just to think years ago they used to lock them up in institutions now just give em a lap top and they amuse themselves all day long.
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 14:07
There was me thinking it was porridge with salt from the slave mines too.....[smirk]Porridge! my my you have expensive tastes what's wrong with a good old bowl of tree bark gruel straight from the gulags :0))
only the best 2p Highland Daintee of course. Has to be a Scottish one, none of that Werther's unoriginal in my pocket!Defo a done deal for the Highland Daintee :-P
Well well. The org has everything. Socialists vote rigging now (allegedly). You'd think we were in Falkirk. :eek:
Humerous Vegetable
11-Feb-14, 17:14
The .org appears to have been taken over by sad trolls who only joined in the last few months and argue amongst themselves because they seem to be disinclined to allow any new members to post. What is the point of this poll anyway? The "poll" will be taken on September 18, when Scots will be allowed to decide what happens to our country.
peedie man
11-Feb-14, 17:57
what about the english in our country there seems to more of them than scots
what about the english in our country there seems to more of them than scots
Yeah fling em oot!:cool:
(although I don't think there is room for all the Scots everywhere else to come back.)
Yeah fling em oot!:cool:(although I don't think there is room for all the Scots everywhere else to come back.)That's just plain nasty......
That's just plain nasty......
More so when it's said by a Teuchter!! [lol] (Duc, not Jax)
The .org appears to have been taken over by sad trolls who only joined in the last few months and argue amongst themselves because they seem to be disinclined to allow any new members to post. What is the point of this poll anyway? The "poll" will be taken on September 18, when Scots will be allowed to decide what happens to our country.
The thing is it will not just be the Scots who are allowed to decide on Scotland's independence - it is everyone on the voting register - for Caithness that must be a fair number of English born people. In Glasgow we get to a United Nations situation with the width and breadth of the nationalities involved (well country of Origin not being Scotland that is).
Most Scots are living in England, Wales, France, New Zealand and Austria, to mention a few of the many countries "true" Scots are in - and none of them will get to vote on independence.
Ducati - "send them back" I doubt you will need to as English / Welsh / Irish born folk will leave in the hundreds - and this would be a disaster for Scotland in my opinion.
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 20:13
I thought duc was a Welshman judging by his dodgy accent and the way he eyes up those wee sheepies :0))
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 20:30
The .org appears to have been taken over by sad trolls who only joined in the last few months and argue amongst themselves because they seem to be disinclined to allow any new members to post. What is the point of this poll anyway? The "poll" will be taken on September 18, when Scots will be allowed to decide what happens to our country.Freedom of a speech and expression are a wonderful things perchance you'd try to embrace them more fully sometime:0))
I thought duc was a Welshman judging by his dodgy accent and the way he eyes up those wee sheepies :0))
Ewes! There is nothing wrong with me!
I'm convinced that Green politics is the intelligent and longterm way to go.
But is it better to change the big beast from within knowing that it won't change
or?
Let green politics shine through a new Scotland and make her a shining example for the rest of the UK to emulate?
decisions decisions....
On ye're bike Rheghead they 're no building another wind farm up here without a fight, solar panels has to be the way to go until such time as there are efficient wave power machines.
On ye're bike Rheghead they 're no building another wind farm up here without a fight, solar panels has to be the way to go until such time as there are efficient wave power machines.
You might change your view. Greens are not about just renewables, they have a broad based spectrum of policies aimed at bringing wealth to people who deserve it without leaving anyone behind. Ywindy complains that private companies profit with wind. Yes they do but that is a tory/labour policy. But the Greens will have all wind farms returned to public ownership thus negating profiteering.
People who deserve wealth bring it to themselves. They don't need green help....thanks. :lol:
Dear me..... Victorian values? The deserving rich and the undeserving poor..... I despair sometimes.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 09:08
Glad to see you're back Commisar Squidge I trust all is well in the gulags and you'll be restoring order to the proletariat. I prefer not to consider myself Victorian. More Cavalier less Roundhead :0))
If the flooding continues down South we won't have to worry about the vote on Independence!!
http://i.imgur.com/8WVDPhB.jpg
Oh, I love it! Thanks Kodiak.
As there is a suspicion that the results of this poll have been manipulated, we can't trust the results of any other which is a shame because it would have been useful to moniter the effectiveness of the campaigns in the run up to the ref.
As there is a suspicion that the results of this poll have been manipulated, we can't trust the results of any other which is a shame because it would have been useful to moniter the effectiveness of the campaigns in the run up to the ref.
Screenshot of voters names or other 100% non-manipulatablubulle proof that it is being manipulated or it isn't happening and it's all a figment of the NO voters imaginations! [smirk]
With a Org 'membership' of 9,718 methinks this 'Poll' is just a bit of fun and just an amusing interlude and in actual fact means now't
Screenshot of voters names or other 100% non-manipulatablubulle proof that it is being manipulated or it isn't happening and it's all a figment of the NO voters imaginations! [smirk]
Suspicion I said. Based on a bit of anomalous activity and the very obvious fact it does not in any way reflect all the other polls that are delivering consistent results.
You will find a summary of recent polls here: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottish-independence-referendum
ducati, interesting link. What does D/K stand for a again - not Dinna Ken (surely) :)
Ach, i see no bleating noo that the poll is in favour of the NO squad! manipulation indeed!!!
Suspicion I said. Based on a bit of anomalous activity and the very obvious fact it does not in any way reflect all the other polls that are delivering consistent results.
You will find a summary of recent polls here: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottish-independence-referendum
I find that link hilarious in that the only poll done by the SNP shows YES as winners whilst every other poll has NO as winners lol
I find that link hilarious in that the only poll done by the SNP shows YES as winners whilst every other poll has NO as winners lol
I guess it depends who you ask. [lol]
I find that link hilarious in that the only poll done by the SNP shows YES as winners whilst every other poll has NO as winners lol
Noticed that too: 44 vs 43, hmmm
If the flooding continues down South we won't have to worry about the vote on Independence!!
http://i.imgur.com/8WVDPhB.jpg
Dunno about you but this just sums up everything what is wrong with the zeitgeist of the independence debate and why the yes campaign is allienting potential support.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 23:34
Dunno about you but this just sums up everything what is wrong with the zeitgeist of the independence debate and why the yes campaign is allienting potential support.Just wait till they ask for non native scots to wear coloured patches on their coats then you'll see where its really headed. nationalism has a very unhealthy past in every country its reared its head.
This is just utter nonsense! RAgnar, i have asked and asked for you and others who like to pretend that this referendum is about nationality or is anti english, polish, asian, *insert any nationality* here. You sit on the outskirts of the pro and anti independence campaign making ridiculous insulting pronouncements about people and groups you know nothing about. You bandy around suggestions that those with an opposing view are extremists with no justification at all and misrepresent stuff left right and centre.
No one has to fear independence because of their nationality. No one. They perhaps should fear remaining in a UK where You would like no one to be entitled to anything unless they have "worked hard all their life" to pay for it. You are fond of saying there is no poverty here when you compare it to other places in the world that you have visited.... Like that is something we should be ashamed of but never mind rags, your vision of no right to housing, education, healthcare, benefits, no right to a living wage, no right to security of tenure that you seem to support may very well become a reality if we stay in the UK. You will then be able to smile and say "see i told you, THESE people are REALLY poor".
You cant measure people's value to society by the size of their bank balance. When we die, the only things that people really remember are how they cared for others.. Their compassion. This UK cares only when the effluent meets the affluent. Those of us who will never be wealthy no matter how hard we work should see that and look for alternatives. You play around in the shallows Rags, scared to step into deeper water cos you might need someone else to pull you out.... We will step out independently making sure there is a helping hand for those who are struggling. That will even include you honey... Come on .... Its exciting.
You play around in the shallows Rags, scared to step into deeper water cos you might need someone else to pull you out.... We will step out independently making sure there is a helping hand for those who are struggling. That will even include you honey... Come on .... Its exciting.
Oh Squidge, I would love to know what your on? is it strong drink? Or is it those rose tinted specs you have? I do not see the Scotland I love, being the land of milk and honey whilst under the heel of Eck's boot, even if he does have a plan B.
Mrs Bradey
15-Feb-14, 11:22
You cant measure people's value to society by the size of their bank balance. When we die, the only things that people really remember are how they cared for others... or their legacy / inheritance (size of bank balance) Burrel, Carnegie, Tate etc!!
This is just utter nonsense! RAgnar, i have asked and asked for you and others who like to pretend that this referendum is about nationality or is anti english, polish, asian, *insert any nationality* here. You sit on the outskirts of the pro and anti independence campaign making ridiculous insulting pronouncements about people and groups you know nothing about. You bandy around suggestions that those with an opposing view are extremists with no justification at all and misrepresent stuff left right and centre.
No one has to fear independence because of their nationality. No one. They perhaps should fear remaining in a UK where You would like no one to be entitled to anything unless they have "worked hard all their life" to pay for it. You are fond of saying there is no poverty here when you compare it to other places in the world that you have visited.... Like that is something we should be ashamed of but never mind rags, your vision of no right to housing, education, healthcare, benefits, no right to a living wage, no right to security of tenure that you seem to support may very well become a reality if we stay in the UK. You will then be able to smile and say "see i told you, THESE people are REALLY poor".
You cant measure people's value to society by the size of their bank balance. When we die, the only things that people really remember are how they cared for others.. Their compassion. This UK cares only when the effluent meets the affluent. Those of us who will never be wealthy no matter how hard we work should see that and look for alternatives. You play around in the shallows Rags, scared to step into deeper water cos you might need someone else to pull you out.... We will step out independently making sure there is a helping hand for those who are struggling. That will even include you honey... Come on .... Its exciting.
Sorry, there is an awful lot of Unionism being portrayed as fear. We are not as a rule against independence because we are scared (although I am) we are against it because it is a stupid idea that will cost us everything and gain us nothing.
Oh Squidge, I would love to know what your on? is it strong drink? Or is it those rose tinted specs you have? I do not see the Scotland I love, being the land of milk and honey whilst under the heel of Eck's boot, even if he does have a plan B.Did I say it would be the land of milk and honey. What my post says is that an Independent Scotland will remain committed to a publicly funded NHS, a welfare state, free education as it becomes independent. I know you dont like Salmond Golach but if you took your head from out of you ar...mpit even you would see that Scottish Governments have maintained the NHS despite pressures from the reductions in money coming from westminster and have stepped in to mitigate the effects of some of the welfare cuts. Thats FACT. You want a privatised NHS, £10 an item for prescriptions and people being evicted due to the Bedroom tax, on ya go with your NO vote. After all, YOU're alright Jack. This thing is bigger than Alex Salmknd, the SNP, the Labour party or you or me. But if you dont care then thats up to you.
or their legacy / inheritance (size of bank balance) Burrel, Carnegie, Tate etc!!Burrel, Carnegie and Tate are remembered because of what they DID with their money, their philanthropy and their legacy is that.
Sorry, there is an awful lot of Unionism being portrayed as fear. We are not as a rule against independence because we are scared (although I am) we are against it because it is a stupid idea that will cost us everything and gain us nothing. I know you are scared Ducati, exciting things often scare us. I would be interested to know what your nothings and everythings are.
I know you are scared Ducati, exciting things often scare us. I would be interested to know what your nothings and everythings are.
Exciting like jumping out of an aeroplane without a parachute?
You will have to persude me what is to gain, you've failed so far.
What I think I will lose, highlights only as there is no time or room.
My life savings, sunk into investments in Scotland.
My protection of the UK.
That is enough without all the other miriad concernes like suddenly living in a foreign country against my will. And being without the resources to get out (see above).
Did I say it would be the land of milk and honey. What my post says is that an Independent Scotland will remain committed to a publicly funded NHS, a welfare state, free education as it becomes independent. I know you dont like Salmond Golach but if you took your head from out of you ar...mpit even you would see that Scottish Governments have maintained the NHS despite pressures from the reductions in money coming from westminster and have stepped in to mitigate the effects of some of the welfare cuts. Thats FACT. You want a privatised NHS, £10 an item for prescriptions and people being evicted due to the Bedroom tax, on ya go with your NO vote. After all, YOU're alright Jack. This thing is bigger than Alex Salmknd, the SNP, the Labour party or you or me. But if you dont care then thats up to you.
Sorry if i beg to differ Squidge
Its ironic that Eck's claim a currency union is "in the best interests of the UK".
In 1999, he claimed sterling was a "millstone around Scotland's neck"
In 2009, he then claimed sterling was "sinking like a stone".
Oor Eck didn't give a damn about the UK's "best interests" when they were arguing for the Euro, but now they have the cheek to tell 55 million people what's best for them.
Eck and his deputy are deceitful liars, who will say anything to fool people into voting YES!
RagnarRocks
15-Feb-14, 15:06
This is just utter nonsense! RAgnar, i have asked and asked for you and others who like to pretend that this referendum is about nationality or is anti english, polish, asian, *insert any nationality* here. You sit on the outskirts of the pro and anti independence campaign making ridiculous insulting pronouncements about people and groups you know nothing about. You bandy around suggestions that those with an opposing view are extremists with no justification at all and misrepresent stuff left right and centre. No one has to fear independence because of their nationality. No one. They perhaps should fear remaining in a UK where You would like no one to be entitled to anything unless they have "worked hard all their life" to pay for it. You are fond of saying there is no poverty here when you compare it to other places in the world that you have visited.... Like that is something we should be ashamed of but never mind rags, your vision of no right to housing, education, healthcare, benefits, no right to a living wage, no right to security of tenure that you seem to support may very well become a reality if we stay in the UK. You will then be able to smile and say "see i told you, THESE people are REALLY poor". You cant measure people's value to society by the size of their bank balance. When we die, the only things that people really remember are how they cared for others.. Their compassion. This UK cares only when the effluent meets the affluent. Those of us who will never be wealthy no matter how hard we work should see that and look for alternatives. You play around in the shallows Rags, scared to step into deeper water cos you might need someone else to pull you out.... We will step out independently making sure there is a helping hand for those who are struggling. That will even include you honey... Come on .... Its exciting.Now how can you honestly sit there and say No One has a fear just because you say so. Isn't the Scottish Football suffering with sectarian problems. How many times of these threads have we seen the English Toffs comments or similar. I'm all for a fair society but I believe hard work should be rewarded and the genuinely ill in society should be protected but I also believe that if you work hard and strive to make something of yourself there should be a reward rather than spoon feeding those who have neither the inclination to improve themselves or think that everything should be handed to them because its fair to share. Maybe just maybe I've seen poverty on a level that would break your heart but have never seen it in this country. There will always be those in society who are at the bottom and those at the top and despite all the social engineering in the world you'll never change that. I could give two people £1000 one may well work hard and make more of it the other may well waste it their opportunities in this country are the same and you'll never socially engineer human nature out of real life.Ive lived in big cities where you do get a myriad of personalities some people want to live in nice homes others want to live in the equivalent of squalor. I've had appointments in people's houses and the amount of money they earn doesn't tell you a thing about how they live. In the UK everyone has access to Education and Health Care. You live in a world where every hard luck story is believed and felt sorry for but I've met enough feckless wasters who laugh when the Social workers pay a visit or when they cry to the judge and get a light sentence. There should always be a safety net in society I've no problem with that I just don't accept your very socialist agenda as being one that is fit for a society with so many different types of people.
Mrs Bradey
15-Feb-14, 15:55
Now how can you honestly sit there and say No One has a fear just because you say so. Isn't the Scottish Football suffering with sectarian problems. How many times of these threads have we seen the English Toffs comments or similar. I'm all for a fair society but I believe hard work should be rewarded and the genuinely ill in society should be protected but I also believe that if you work hard and strive to make something of yourself there should be a reward rather than spoon feeding those who have neither the inclination to improve themselves or think that everything should be handed to them because its fair to share. Maybe just maybe I've seen poverty on a level that would break your heart but have never seen it in this country. There will always be those in society who are at the bottom and those at the top and despite all the social engineering in the world you'll never change that. I could give two people £1000 one may well work hard and make more of it the other may well waste it their opportunities in this country are the same and you'll never socially engineer human nature out of real life.Ive lived in big cities where you do get a myriad of personalities some people want to live in nice homes others want to live in the equivalent of squalor. I've had appointments in people's houses and the amount of money they earn doesn't tell you a thing about how they live. In the UK everyone has access to Education and Health Care. You live in a world where every hard luck story is believed and felt sorry for but I've met enough feckless wasters who laugh when the Social workers pay a visit or when they cry to the judge and get a light sentence. There should always be a safety net in society I've no problem with that I just don't accept your very socialist agenda as being one that is fit for a society with so many different types of people.don't call them wasters, squidge will be after you! they are nice people who have fallen on hard times!
RagnarRocks
15-Feb-14, 15:57
You mean there's always an excuse for everything brigade
Sorry if i beg to differ Squidge
Its ironic that Eck's claim a currency union is "in the best interests of the UK".
In 1999, he claimed sterling was a "millstone around Scotland's neck"
In 2009, he then claimed sterling was "sinking like a stone".
Oor Eck didn't give a damn about the UK's "best interests" when they were arguing for the Euro, but now they have the cheek to tell 55 million people what's best for them.
Eck and his deputy are deceitful liars, who will say anything to fool people into voting YES!
why would anyone want a party whos opinion in 2014 is the same as it was 15 years before regardless of the changes in the economy. Who wants a party whos opinion is 2014 is what it was before the econmic crisis we lived through over the last five years. ALL the parties have changed their position on the economy. The SNP is no different than any other. And what is worse about The SNP and Alex Salmond saying what he believes is best for the UK as a whole when Westminster politicians say what they think is best for Scotland all the time!!!
RagnarRocks
16-Feb-14, 08:33
Changing your mind over certain issues is perfectly acceptable but in this particular circumstance its pure opportunism as he hasn't the deceny to be honest about the situation. He lies bully's and has no respect for the electorate of Scotland he suppress's freedom of speech and centralises power in a way that is akin to some of the worst practises of the Cold War soviet era but we are supposed to believe this man wants a free and fair Scotland.
Changing your mind over certain issues is perfectly acceptable but in this particular circumstance its pure opportunism as he hasn't the deceny to be honest about the situation. He lies bully's and has no respect for the electorate of Scotland he suppress's freedom of speech and centralises power in a way that is akin to some of the worst practises of the Cold War soviet era but we are supposed to believe this man wants a free and fair Scotland.
I can't get my head around this. If these accusations had been leveled at the Torys the entire .org would be screaming outrage and slavering for blood. He must have them in his thrall. In any event even if we don't have to put up with him for long, he will be the person er...negotiating all your futures for you so I would think very very hard before you trust him with this.
RagnarRocks
16-Feb-14, 09:44
His idea of negotiation is give me what I want or I will call you a bully ! Works for some I guess....
What worries me is the people who believe that Independent Scotland would be debt free and able to sustain all the Social Engineering proposed.
A reality is from day one even without taking a share of National Debt it would have to borrow money and then you have all these wonderful social programmes as mentioned on the org.
Problem being they all cost vast amounts of money. So what we have is a newly independent country that's ploughing itself into debt to fulfil the promises of a free and fair society.
Has anyone considered that those proposing all these scheme have a vested interest in more public spending.
Public Sector workers and Charities always scream for more money it keeps them in jobs.
Changing your mind over certain issues is perfectly acceptable but in this particular circumstance its pure opportunism as he hasn't the deceny to be honest about the situation. He lies bully's and has no respect for the electorate of Scotland he suppress's freedom of speech and centralises power in a way that is akin to some of the worst practises of the Cold War soviet era but we are supposed to believe this man wants a free and fair Scotland.
No different whatsoever to Cameron and his cronies but he is nowhere near as bad! The present govt are the biggest liars, cheats, bullies and thieves around at the moment an who are so perfectly adept at making the lives of the population miserable that one would be forgiven if they thought they had majored in the subject!! The Italian Mafia crimes look like nursery school name-calling compared to what the Condemnedliblabs can do!
Southern-Gal
16-Feb-14, 10:33
The timing is all wrong.
IF independence is a good idea it should be done or tried at a much more stable time for the economy.
Having more change, red tape, expenses and so on on the back of the worst recession ever is too much for most businesses, both countries and all their people.
Personally I think it would break everyones' bank :(
RagnarRocks
16-Feb-14, 11:10
No different whatsoever to Cameron and his cronies but he is nowhere near as bad! The present govt are the biggest liars, cheats, bullies and thieves around at the moment an who are so perfectly adept at making the lives of the population miserable that one would be forgiven if they thought they had majored in the subject!! The Italian Mafia crimes look like nursery school name-calling compared to what the Condemnedliblabs can do!Can't say I've seem the con/ libdems tamper with freedom of speech like Mr Salmond and his cohorts have up here. You can still safely say what you like south of the border up here best be careful .
Can't say I've seem the con/ libdems tamper with freedom of speech like Mr Salmond and his cohorts have up here. You can still safely say what you like south of the border up here best be careful .
Not seen the Scottish Government restricting what you say here? The Scottish papers are anti Independent and they have not been silenced. Read the Scottish daily Mail lately?
What about the secret courts that the Con/LibDem voted for a few months ago. Almost all papers are against the new standards laws for newspapers as they say it is anti democratic.
RagnarRocks
16-Feb-14, 14:44
Not seen the Scottish Government restricting what you say here? The Scottish papers are anti Independent and they have not been silenced. Read the Scottish daily Mail lately?What about the secret courts that the Con/LibDem voted for a few months ago. Almost all papers are against the new standards laws for newspapers as they say it is anti democratic.Here you go Gerry read this http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/11895#.UwDAf8sgGSM
No different whatsoever to Cameron and his cronies but he is nowhere near as bad! The present govt are the biggest liars, cheats, bullies and thieves around at the moment an who are so perfectly adept at making the lives of the population miserable that one would be forgiven if they thought they had majored in the subject!! The Italian Mafia crimes look like nursery school name-calling compared to what the Condemnedliblabs can do!
Have you got any examples because I vote for them and I'm a bit concerned. :eek:
Have you got any examples because I vote for them and I'm a bit concerned. :eek:
Is that a no then?
Is that a no then?
Why bother, you'll only pick holes like you do in everyone elses statements. I ain't playing cat and mouse so if you don't believe it then tell me why
Why bother, you'll only pick holes like you do in everyone elses statements. I ain't playing cat and mouse so if you don't believe it then tell me why
I don't believe it. I've seen lots of posts like it, but no examples. Just political dogma.
Having been speaking about Independence with friends and family in Englandshire and Walesshire over recent weeks, I've distilled the attitute to a newly independent Scotland and how the rUK government should approach the negotiations.
The feeling of the rUK citizen in the street is essentially this; The UK should say we will keep the debt and as much oil and gas as we can legitimately grab, there is the border, ask permission if you want to cross it, on yer go!
And don't forget, they will have an opportunity to vote on it in 2015. I suspect, in the event of a yes vote, the UK political partys will, suddenly, have an awful lot about the relationship with Scotland in their manifestos.
Green_not_greed
15-Mar-14, 12:38
Just wondering who is intending to vote and who has read the book "Scotch on the Rocks" ?
It was a TV series in the 1970s and would be timely if the BBC decided to rebroadcast it. Though no doubt controversial.
When Alex Salmond says that it's one of his favourite novels and a "cracking read" you've just got to wonder what lengths he will go to gain independence.
IMO should be compulsory reading for everyone intending to vote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_on_the_Rocks
Noticed no one mentioned the new defecit figures for Scotland. I thought someone would be along to tell us borrowing £12 billion a year just to make ends meet was a good thing?
2little2late
16-Mar-14, 18:37
I would like to know where Scotland gets all the money from to pay for free prescriptions, free eye tests, free bus travel for the over 60's etc. etc. And reading in the newspaper today. From 2017 the Forth Road bridge is to be repainted with a timescale of 15 years and with a budget of £80,000,000. Big Eck must have a secret stash somewhere.
I would like to know where Scotland gets all the money from to pay for free prescriptions, free eye tests, free bus travel for the over 60's etc. etc. And reading in the newspaper today. From 2017 the Forth Road bridge is to be repainted with a timescale of 15 years and with a budget of £80,000,000. Big Eck must have a secret stash somewhere.
Is that over the 15 years in an Independent Scotland.......as in about £5,300,000 annually? If so, that's about what we wouldn't have to be paying as our annual share of maintaining the House of Lords.
samanthaflax02
21-Mar-14, 08:28
Yes, I am voting for independence.
I heard or I thought I did, this morning that a late poll reveals a 50/50 split yes/no. I can't find it but if this is the case then Alex the fish can congratulate himself on completely polarising Scottish society.
Lets see, how do civil wars start? Oh yes, half the population want one thing politicaly and the other half want something else.
Not good times ahead.
It's front page of the Sunday times and I think they have shared the article on their Facebook page so you can read it despite the pay wall thingie
You had maybe better build a bunker Ducati. Stock up on tinned food and stockpile water supplies. Seriously though. If you are really worried about war then perhaps you should go to a few meetings of both sides and put your mind at rest by asking some questions. It might reassure you .
There's a definite trend now for voters to go from saying No to Maybe then from Maybe to saying Yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_refe rendum,_2014
It's front page of the Sunday times and I think they have shared the article on their Facebook page so you can read it despite the pay wall thingie
You had maybe better build a bunker Ducati. Stock up on tinned food and stockpile water supplies. Seriously though. If you are really worried about war then perhaps you should go to a few meetings of both sides and put your mind at rest by asking some questions. It might reassure you .
Actually, you need to take it seriously. I ask again, what happens if there is no clear majority either way?
Actually, you need to take it seriously. I ask again, what happens if there is no clear majority either way?
I read on a BBC news site a while ago that there probably won't be a majority ruling. If the YES vote is just 1 more than the NO vote then the YES vote will win. I'll see if i can find that article, i've probably gotten the context wrong after so long but you never know, It may be right.
Actually if there is one vote in it then there won't be enough accuracy in the counting to see it.
The answer Ducati is where there is a majority there will be a winner. So if the count shows a yes majority there will be a yes win and if there is a no majority there will be a no win. There is a yes or no vote. There may be counts and recounts but the majority will win.
The momentum is with the Yes campaign so here is hoping. What made me switch was what we will gain rather than lose. The UK is a comfy pair of slippers, we can blame others rather than take responsibility for our own decisions. But I find that fundamentally wrong, there is something wrong about when decisions are being made by a body that is very remote from the people. I want Democracy at the local level and a greener and fairer society.
The momentum is with the Yes campaign so here is hoping. What made me switch was what we will gain rather than lose. The UK is a comfy pair of slippers, we can blame others rather than take responsibility for our own decisions. But I find that fundamentally wrong, there is something wrong about when decisions are being made by a body that is very remote from the people. I want Democracy at the local level and a greener and fairer society.
I'd rather stay in a UK that isn't likely ever to go bankrupt. I don't see a difference, in this day and age, where the administrative centre is. I still consider nationalists to be a lunatic fringe and don't want them ruling my country. So here is hoping.
Now excuse me if I don't post for a while but I'll be busy making sure all assets and protection are transfered to UK institutions. Just in case..you know.
What do you expect will happen after the referendum Ducati? I mean in the immediate aftermath in either a yes win or a no win?
orkneycadian
07-Apr-14, 09:08
On Radio Scotland this morning that the petition for the referendum on independance for the Islands has now passed the 1,000 mark. Is that not the point where the government is obliged to take action on it?
orkneycadian
07-Apr-14, 09:14
But I find that fundamentally wrong, there is something wrong about when decisions are being made by a body that is very remote from the people. I want Democracy at the local level and a greener and fairer society.
Edinburgh is still geographically further away from the closest part of Shetland (Fair Isle) than Fair Isle is to Norway. Orkney is more evenly sited in the middle. Calling Edinburgh local to the islands is farcical. There are folk living on Shetland who are further away from Edinburgh, than Edinburgh is from London.
Edinburgh is still geographically further away from the closest part of Shetland (Fair Isle) than Fair Isle is to Norway. Orkney is more evenly sited in the middle. Calling Edinburgh local to the islands is farcical. There are folk living on Shetland who are further away from Edinburgh, than Edinburgh is from London.
So? Scotland is a big country.
orkneycadian
07-Apr-14, 09:24
In that case, the UK is also a big country, and the folkies in the central belt have nothing to worry about, being "ruled" by those just down the road from them.
The Scottish Green Party says independence could bring banking benefits for businesses
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/green-party-says-independence-could-bring-banking-benefits-for-businesses-1.306336?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
What do you expect will happen after the referendum Ducati? I mean in the immediate aftermath in either a yes win or a no win?
If it is no, a feeling of being saved. If it is yes, I've no idea, I've not had my country ripped apart before.
I know that I'm having nothing to do with it.
If it is no, a feeling of being saved. If it is yes, I've no idea, I've not had my country ripped apart before.
I know that I'm having nothing to do with it.
Feel the same way
Feel the same way
Just a thought, it's not going to be much of a country if about half the population won't or can't engage.
this referendum is incredibly divisive and whatever way the vote goes there will be a large proportion of the residents feeling rather disgruntled.
this referendum is incredibly divisive and whatever way the vote goes there will be a large proportion of the residents feeling rather disgruntled.
You can make your strongest protest by boycotting the referendum. Nobody is forcing you.
well done the Canucks, they see sense, there is no place for separatists
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-08/quebec-liberals-defeat-canada-separatists-in-election.html
You can make your strongest protest by boycotting the referendum. Nobody is forcing you.
Why would you suggest a boycott, goes against democracy?
I don't mind a spot of controversy.
I will be voting NO bright and early.
He said that to me too. I think he thinks they have a chance if all the no voters abstain. :lol:
Now excuse me if I don't post for a while but I'll be busy making sure all assets and protection are transfered to UK institutions. Just in case..you know.
Good news! No investments or insurances with Scottish institutions, hardly surprising, there aren't any. Bad news, heavily invested in property. :(
Good news! No investments or insurances with Scottish institutions, hardly surprising, there aren't any. Bad news, heavily invested in property. :(
I'll start the bidding! 10 thistles! :D
Yep, been away again - doone south.
God there are some thicko's around. I refer to a conversation I had with a couple of Glaswegians on a train from Aintree to Preston. "we want freedom from England, don't want these English B**s telling us what to do". eh? I sort of mentioned that in actual fact England did NOT run Scotland, and in fact England was NOT an Independent country.. Stunned silence (for a couple of seconds) before their befuddled drunken minds reverted to type.; "FREEDOM!".. duh, so left em to it.
If this is the basis for voting to break up the UK, what hope for intelligent debate..
Sigh
Absolutely Beks cos 2 drunk mannies on a train in Glasgow are ABSOLUTELY indicative of the debates going on in halls, hotels, schools, workplaces and cafés all over Scotland. Pop along to any one of the events being advertised wherever you are and you will see plenty of intelligent debate from both sides. Confine you experiences to drunk blokes on trains or ranting foul mouthed hooded blokes swearing at YES campaigners as seen in Glasgow this last weekend and you won't!
I'll start the bidding! 10 thistles! :D
Er..what was the exchange rate again? :eek:
Er..what was the exchange rate again? :eek:
Bit of a prickly subject that... :roll:
I keep thinking I won't comment again but I'm really enjoying the Alex and Nicola show telling everyone else what is good for them. :lol:
I'll share the reaction from doon sooth. They wouldn'y buy Scottish lecky if it was the last lecky on earth. In fact, the exchange rate won't be a problem because the Made in Scotland brand will be so toxic.
In fact, the exchange rate won't be a problem because the Made in Scotland brand will be so toxic.
Roll on enormous toxic exports doon sooth.....then Scotland won't have to worry about independence as everyone doon sooth will be playing their harps.....:eek:
Roll on enormous toxic exports doon sooth.....then Scotland won't have to worry about independence as everyone doon sooth will be playing their harps.....:eek:
Na, the Sheltys tried it. Only managed to poison about 70 Londoners
Tangerine-Dream
13-Apr-14, 21:03
I have noticed that a lot of English people who live up here will be voting "yes". I'm sure if the people in England could vote, the majority would also be voting yes to an independent Scotland (and YES to an independent Wales and Northern Ireland). I will, personally, be voting NO as I believe the United Kingdom is the biggest success story in the history of planet Earth and to break up that union for no other reason than Scottish politicians getting fatter, and greedier, on their new found "power" is absolutely futile.
There is a good argument for independence but the SNP don't have any answers... they are drumming up nationalism and promising all sorts of things but none of what they are promising is actually factual or, for that matter, necessarily "doable".
Old sayings have been carried down through the centuries and they are generally still in use today because they are proven and nine times out of ten correct.
Better sticking with the devil you know.
United we stand together we fall.
There are many many thousands of people who will risk DEATH in their attempt to be smuggled into the United Kingdom in search of a better life yet there are a couple of million Scots (if the polls are anything to go by) who actually want to leave the United Kingdom..... have a look around you folks, is it really that bad? No, it isn't! It's actually VERY good compared to some other countries and that is because we have (as a nation) stood united over the centuries and worked together to get to where we are.
To break away from the National health service, the pension system, the defence system, the UK pound, the police service, the fire service, the Royal Mail (universal pricing), the post office, the benefits system / social security etc. etc. etc. on the say so of "Alex Salmond" is just pure madness IMO.
You will lose the pound
"no we won't"
You will find it hard to become a member of the European Union
"no we won't, we've been members for over 40 years"
erm...... as far as I am aware the "United Kingdom" has been a member of the EU for over 40 years ;)
No point in my wasting time writing screeds of reasons why the UK should not be broken up, I would prefer to READ factual documentation (including plans) of why it should be broken up and, sadly, the document that the SNP cobbled together is (at best) not even fit for duty in a public toilet.
Tangerine-Dream
13-Apr-14, 21:27
It is also my belief that the Prime Minister actually WANTS to see the UK broken up. Without Scotland, labour will never get into government ever again and that "is" a fact. The last thing David Cameron wants to hear in September is that Scotland has voted NO.... He is banking on a yes vote. That would ensure his party of clowns / cheats / expenses swindlers / whore mongers / corrupt bunch of woofters were kept in postions of power (positions where they can line their pockets off the back of the poor man) for many decades to come.
Nobody has considered this aspect and are wondering why the conservatives are "deliberately" putting their foot direct into the SNP's press machine ;) They would like nothing better than to see the back of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but don't have the balls to say it publicly.
What we ALL need is a true Oliver Cromwell type politician to wipe out this bunch of "power hungry" self centred mouthpieces..... they are all in it for themselves, always have been, always will.
It's not a referendum we need, it's a revolution.
Tangerine-Dream
13-Apr-14, 23:01
A "united" revolution.
Tangerine-Dream
13-Apr-14, 23:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow1S4DJtLOk
Tangerine-Dream
13-Apr-14, 23:18
Oliver Cromwell rocks ;) !!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TIEURRuGmo
Today's Scotsman newspaper is reporting that Salmond is going to offer Orkney, Hebrides and Shetland a referendum if they vote for Yes - http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-and-snp-bid-to-win-over-islanders-1-3375286 - Just another reason to vote NO in my opinion. Salmond and his party are going to destroy Scotland if they succeed in their independence referendum and we will be left with a poorer and broken apart country if they win.
I can see this ending badly if the NO vote win and the isles still want independence from rUK. Fishing, Whisky, Gas and Oil, everything the rUK needs to balance the books, gone at the drop of a hat.
tonkatojo
14-Apr-14, 09:12
I can see this ending badly if the NO vote win and the isles still want independence from rUK. Fishing, Whisky, Gas and Oil, everything the rUK needs to balance the books, gone at the drop of a hat.
I cannae see the isles doing a Crimea type get out also I cannae see the gov agreeing to it nor a Salmond led gov for that matter.
It looks like the Yes campaign is in the driving seat for independence as the No campaign is losing the argument. The No campaign has only smears and misrepresentation left in the tank.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Scottish_independence_polls_graphic.svg
It looks like the Yes campaign is in the driving seat for independence as the No campaign is losing the argument. The No campaign has only smears and misrepresentation left in the tank.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Scottish_independence_polls_graphic.svg
Can't read that it's too small. Anyway, it doesn't matter what the no campaign has. It only matters what you and I think when we go into the polling booth. Nothing has changed my mind.
Can't read that it's too small. Anyway, it doesn't matter what the no campaign has. It only matters what you and I think when we go into the polling booth. Nothing has changed my mind.
Personally i think all that matters whatever the outcome is that we all still remain civil and friendly with one another. There is enough tragedy and strife in the country today without making anything worse by bleating and fighting with each other about who voted yes or no after the 18th September.
It looks like the Yes campaign is in the driving seat for independence as the No campaign is losing the argument. The No campaign has only smears and misrepresentation left in the tank.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Scottish_independence_polls_graphic.svg
The scotsman article I read still has fatboy lagging
It looks like the Yes campaign is in the driving seat for independence as the No campaign is losing the argument. The No campaign has only smears and misrepresentation left in the tank.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Scottish_independence_polls_graphic.svgI am happy with the result of the Org's own poll, Eck and his cronies trailing, keep it up.
Personally i think all that matters whatever the outcome is that we all still remain civil and friendly with one another. There is enough tragedy and strife in the country today without making anything worse by bleating and fighting with each other about who voted yes or no after the 18th September.
And this is what you think will happen is it? The losing side will say "ho hum", it was a good debate. I for one will be very displeased indeed if the vote is yes. The consequences to my family and I will be catastrophic. Not something I will ever forgive. The first time I'm asked to declare my ethnicity, I will be straight down the British Embassy to demand military intervention.
The front page of the Daily Express UK version warns of a pensions disaster but their Scottish version assures us that pensions are safe in the UK. This just shows how much rubbish the right wing media are spouting just now and up to the Indyref. Keep alert people that your minds are being manipulated by those who have a vested interest in keeping the status quo.
And this is what you think will happen is it? The losing side will say "ho hum", it was a good debate. I for one will be very displeased indeed if the vote is yes. The consequences to my family and I will be catastrophic. Not something I will ever forgive. The first time I'm asked to declare my ethnicity, I will be straight down the British Embassy to demand military intervention.
I am pretty sure there will be plenty of bitching and fighting (i didn't mean physically) whatever way the vote goes going by what i have heard up until now. I do understand your plight if a yes vote happens by what you have been saying over the last few months but i cannot understand how eck and co basically don't seem to be bothered about the repercussions and consequences for people such as you and your family and to date i can't say i have heard anything about this possible situation from any of the parties and how they would address it.
The possibility of someone suffering a serious financial loss and being compensated in the event of a yes vote is a mighty can of worms indeed.
I for one will be very displeased indeed if the vote is yes.
I will be displeased if the vote is a No. Tory westminster will take us for a bunch of yellow bellied cowards who were too afraid to say Yes when it mattered. They will then throw the worst aspects of their neocon politics at us and all we can do is just roll over and lick their grubby hands.
I will be disappointed and surprised if I am honest. Hosted a meeting for Women for Independence here in sneck tonight. Honestly thought it would be me and one or two others 37 people including myself and my friend arrived. The conversation was great, not intimidating at all, positive, humerous, warm and friendly. Several don't knows and a couple of No voters came along and the feedback was unanimously positive. No guest speakers - just a welcome from me - no need for hands up to ask questions, just women sitting around tables talking to each other about the issues that are important to them. Half an hour after the meeting finished there was still a group standing outside chatting about politics. Can you remember the last time that people were enthusiastic enough to stand around talking about politics? Some of those who came along are already planning similar events in their own areas. Really really enjoyed it.
I am pretty sure there will be plenty of bitching and fighting (i didn't mean physically) whatever way the vote goes going by what i have heard up until now. I do understand your plight if a yes vote happens by what you have been saying over the last few months but i cannot understand how eck and co basically don't seem to be bothered about the repercussions and consequences for people such as you and your family and to date i can't say i have heard anything about this possible situation from any of the parties and how they would address it. The possibility of someone suffering a serious financial loss and being compensated in the event of a yes vote is a mighty can of worms indeed.Who are they going to sue? The voters who voted YES? The voters who voted for the SNP in 2011? The Better Together campaign for being useless? I don't really understand why Ducati thinks he will face catastrophic financial losses and it's not my place to pry. I think that the evidence shows that if you are doing ok now then you will do ok in an independent Scotland too. Also people are frequently asked their ethnic origin now I don't get why it's worth military intervention.
I can see it would be the same if some businesses lost out financially too. I suppose their only options would be to either charge more for their services or products or call it quits and possibly dump people on the dole. Maybe the big businesses that are preparing to pull out of Scotland should the YES vote happen, have foreseen this situation and are on damage limitation mode? who knows?
Who are they going to sue? The voters who voted YES? The voters who voted for the SNP in 2011? The Better Together campaign for being useless? I don't really understand why Ducati thinks he will face catastrophic financial losses and it's not my place to pry. I think that the evidence shows that if you are doing ok now then you will do ok in an independent Scotland too. Also people are frequently asked their ethnic origin now I don't get why it's worth military intervention.
If a nationalist came to my door to enquire if I was English they may well get a face full of er..something they wouldn't want in their face.
Ducati, Why would "they" come to your door asking if you are English?
Ducati, Why would "they" come to your door asking if you are English?
You really are very, very nice aren't you?
Look around the world today.
I'm really very very ordinary - no nicer and no nastier than your average person. . I know what's going on around the world Ducati and I am still asking you why you think that in an Independent Scotland a "nationalist" would knock on your door and ask you whether you are English.
I'm really very very ordinary - no nicer and no nastier than your average person. . I know what's going on around the world Ducati and I am still asking you why you think that in an Independent Scotland a "nationalist" would knock on your door and ask you whether you are English.
Because that is the sort of thing that always happens in this sort of circumstance. Do you need it spelled out? I know you pretend to disagree, but most nationalists hate English people. it is a fact.
If I was in charge of a successionist state that had close to a quarter of the population from that state they had succeeded from, I would want to know where they were and what they were up to. I don't expect anything else.
Because that is the sort of thing that always happens in this sort of circumstance. What sort of circumstance?
Do you need it spelled out? I know you disagree, but most nationalists hate English people. it is a fact. No it is not. It is your opinion based on whatever - you dont share that with us. If it is fact then you can show me the evidence that says that most nationalists hate English people. On ya go!
If I was in charge of a successionist state that had close to a quarter of the population from that state they had succeeded from, I would want to know where they were and what they were up to. I don't expect anything else.
Well then thank goodness you are NOT in charge and thank goodness we have a democratic system of firstly making the decision for or against an independent Scotland and secondly making the laws and the policies which will govern an Independent Scotland. A system in which Regardless of nationality you and I will have a vote....and we are both English.
What sort of circumstance?
No it is not. It is your opinion based on whatever - you dont share that with us. If it is fact then you can show me the evidence that says that most nationalists hate English people. On ya go!
Well then thank goodness you are NOT in charge and thank goodness we have a democratic system of firstly making the decision for or against an independent Scotland and secondly making the laws and the policies which will govern an Independent Scotland. A system in which Regardless of nationality you and I will have a vote....and we are both English.
Well..whatever. Let's hope we don't have to find out.
Well..whatever. Let's hope we don't have to find out.
Jeepers - You spout something so ignorant as "most nationalists hate english people" and say it is FACT but simply have nothing to back it up. You know what ducati - maybe its YOUR prejudice and YOUR hate that is the issue here.
Jeepers - You spout something so ignorant as "most nationalists hate english people" and say it is FACT but simply have nothing to back it up. You know what ducati - maybe its YOUR prejudice and YOUR hate that is the issue here.
Seem to have struck a nerve here. Perhaps there is something you are not telling us? Actually, forget it..safer.;)
Like what? No nerve touched Ducati just exasperation that someone who is obviously smart, intelligent and articulate can make such a stupid ignorant and prejudiced statement as "most nationalists hate english people - Its a fact" when it CLEARLY isnt a fact at all.
I just dont get it - I get that you dont support independence. I get that you think the world will end if the YES campaign is successful but I dont get why you would say such a patent lie and try to pass it off as fact.
Like what? No nerve touched Ducati just exasperation that someone who is obviously smart, intelligent and articulate can make such a stupid ignorant and prejudiced statement as "most nationalists hate english people - Its a fact" when it CLEARLY isnt a fact at all.
I just dont get it - I get that you dont support independence. I get that you think the world will end if the YES campaign is successful but I dont get why you would say such a patent lie and try to pass it off as fact.
Sorry, you protest too much. And it always makes you sooo angry. I come across it all the time, and I just don't believe you don't.
Perhaps it is an opinion formed by Ducati based on his own personal experience, therefore he would not have demonstratable proof but would sill know it as a fact in his head.
Come across what Ducati? I'm not angry Ducati said "most nationalists hate English people it's a fact" but it isn't. If he had said "in my opinion most nationalists I have met hate English people" then he could have been fair enough. But he didn't. Have I come across anti English sentiment in the 20 years I have lived here - yes I have. It has been minimal though and I tend to think that if you are nice then people will be nice back. I have encountered nothing in the way of anti English sentiment within the campaign for independence. I also find many other English people supporting independence. I wonder to what extent People who think that nationalists hate English people are actually engaging with the debate on a real level. In the same way as I said recently if the only place you engage with the debate is when talking to drunk incoherent football fans then you will only hear drunk incoherent opinions. The bottom line is that the argument that most nationalists are anti English is a lazy, ignorant and stupid argument which is not true.
Come across what Ducati? I'm not angry Ducati said "most nationalists hate English people it's a fact" but it isn't. If he had said "in my opinion most nationalists I have met hate English people" then he could have been fair enough. But he didn't. Have I come across anti English sentiment in the 20 years I have lived here - yes I have. It has been minimal though and I tend to think that if you are nice then people will be nice back. I have encountered nothing in the way of anti English sentiment within the campaign for independence. I also find many other English people supporting independence. I wonder to what extent People who think that nationalists hate English people are actually engaging with the debate on a real level. In the same way as I said recently if the only place you engage with the debate is when talking to drunk incoherent football fans then you will only hear drunk incoherent opinions. The bottom line is that the argument that most nationalists are anti English is a lazy, ignorant and stupid argument which is not true.
Yes, keep typing, you are not convincing anyone. Interesting that the No vote on the poll has risen appreciably while we are having this discourse.
Yes, keep typing, you are not convincing anyone. Interesting that the No vote on the poll has risen appreciably while we are having this discourse.
Perhaps you should take it to a national level
I don't think I could cope with that many people hating me. [lol]
I have encountered nothing in the way of anti English sentiment within the campaign for independence.
I don't believe youoo. :D
I don't believe youoo. :DMe neither, disagree on any pro independence chat sites, and watch what your accused of being, to vile to post on here.
Lol lol you two are hilarious. You think I don't know about online abuse? You should try being an English woman blogging about the benefits of Independence - it's sit back and wait for the threats of sexual violence from assorted Orange Order/ SDL and other unsavoury groups who lurk in the murky waters of the Say No, British Unity, and Alex Salmond is a nazi pages. Yuk yuk yuk.
The difference between you two and me is that I KNOW that you two are in no way kin to those foul mouthed racist misogynists because I make it my business to discuss this stuff with real people. You Ducati are perfectly happy to insult the entire YES supporting population because what? People don't like you Ducati? And Golach because you read rubbish on Facebook?
Let's spell it out for your good selves again. I have never come across anti English sentiment within the YES campaign. That's at events here in the highlands, in Glasgow , East Kilbride, Edinburgh or Aberdeenshire or on the west coast. I would invite you along to some events where yes no and undecided people are discussing independence but neither of you would come because you might be proved wrong.
So, Like I said before, Ducati you had better build yourself a bunker honey, I like the one in that film RED where they lifted up that bonnet and went down some steps. It was awesome and you are dead smart - you would make a great job of it. Golach sweetie, you are beyond help lol but I'm in Edinburgh mid may so maybe we can meet in that pub and get a right good blether then say goodnight with a hug. Because although I don't agree with either of you I think you're just lovely. :)
Let's spell it out for your good selves again. I have never come across anti English sentiment within the YES campaign. That's at events here in the highlands, in Glasgow , East Kilbride, Edinburgh or Aberdeenshire or on the west coast. I would invite you along to some events where yes no and undecided people are discussing independence but neither of you would come because you might be proved wrong.
Mmm.. wonder where all the ones I have come across go then?
You showed them the error of their ways with your sparkling personality Ducati :)
Another SNP broadcast tonight. Oh god when will it end? Well, September. :Razz
ducati are you English or British ?
What have you against Scotland standing on its own, making Scottish decisions for Scotland`s best interests ? All political parties agree on one issue: Scotland could stand on its (Scotland`s) own. What is a sure thing is, that all the politicians now campaigning for the NO Campaign in the event of a YES vote will no doubt stand for election to a New Scottish Government and state how well their party will be the best to run an Independent Scotland.
ducati are you English or British ?
What have you against Scotland standing on its own, making Scottish decisions for Scotland`s best interests ? All political parties agree on one issue: Scotland could stand on its (Scotland`s) own. What is a sure thing is, that all the politicians now campaigning for the NO Campaign in the event of a YES vote will no doubt stand for election to a New Scottish Government and state how well their party will be the best to run an Independent Scotland.
I think it will be very bad for me. Do you think it will be very good for you? If so, why? Another Nat asking about my ethnicity, I imagine that will get worse if it does happen. Why does it matter? Many many people elligable to vote in the referendum are not Scots.
And of course, if it does happen, and the immigration targets are set by the SNP or the Greens (for instance) the Scots will soon be outnumbered in their own country, I don't care about that but I know a lot of Scots that do.
And of course, if it does happen, and the immigration targets are set by the SNP or the Greens (for instance) the Scots will soon be outnumbered in their own country, I don't care about that but I know a lot of Scots that do.
I think I read somewhere that the UK's population will be 30% from ethnic minorities by the middle of this century. That certainly cocks a snook at your suggestion that staying within the UK will keep Scotland ethnically Scottish.
I think I read somewhere that the UK's population will be 30% from ethnic minorities by the middle of this century. That certainly cocks a snook at your suggestion that staying within the UK will keep Scotland ethnically Scottish.
That is not what I said at all, (you can tell by reading it :roll:).
I think I read somewhere that the UK's population will be 30% from ethnic minorities by the middle of this century. That certainly cocks a snook at your suggestion that staying within the UK will keep Scotland ethnically Scottish. I read somewhere that wind turbines will lower our electricity bills.That was horse excrement also
I read somewhere that wind turbines will lower our electricity bills.That was horse excrement also
Well this thread isn't about wind turbines but I'll say that my own energy provider, Ecotricity builds only wind turbines and they are 2p cheaper than any of the big six.
Perhaps, but still over 2p dearer than their competitors.
Should every country have the right to be fully in charge of their own affairs?
That is the question we should be asking ourselves in September.
Should every country have the right to be fully in charge of their own affairs?That is the question we should be asking ourselves in September. Being in charge of a train wreck is not a position to be envied
Should every country have the right to be fully in charge of their own affairs?
That is the question we should be asking ourselves in September.
What we should be doing in September is a cost/benefit analysis.
Do I have anything to lose? No...Vote yes
Do I have anything to lose? Yes...Vote No
What we should be doing is looking at the future for our children and asking ourselves
Do I want the chance to have a better fairer society for them to live in - vote Yes
Do I want the sort of society where inequality is higher than almost anywhere in Europe and where if life deals them a hard blow they will be left on the scrap heap to struggle. - vote No
See the thing is it matters not one iota what Ducati says or what I say - you need to decide on what is important to YOU.
Whether that is Ducati's cost benefit analysis or the chance for change that is the driving force for my decision or a greener more ecologically responsible government,the chance to rid ourselves of trident.
There has been some utter utter claptrap posted on this board in the last few days, god knows what's been put in the water but you know - with any risk assessment - and make no mistake folks both YES and NO votes are a risk - but with any risk assessment one of the questions you should ask yourself is "Is it likely". So look at the more bizarre and extreme statements and ask yourselves that question and even the most basic of all the questions.
Many posters would have us believe that the rest of the UK subsidises Scotland - is it likely that Westminster would subsidise Scotland when they won't even subsidise a spare bedroom for a disabled person to keep their wheelchair in? Is it likely that Westminster would allow Scotland to have free education, prescriptions and free personal care if they were paying for it? Is it likely that a country which is rich in resources, people, has some of the best universities, which has had governments who know how to balance budgets would crash and burn like Tangerine Dream suggested? Is it likely that the EU is going to deny Scotland membership given that on Independence Day Scotland's population is almost completely made up of EU citizens and Scotland already meets the Copenhagan Criteria necessary for membership?
Make your decision on what is important to YOU and for YOUR family.
What we should be doing is looking at the future for our children and asking ourselves
Do I want the chance to have a better fairer society for them to live in - vote Yes
Do I want the sort of society where inequality is higher than almost anywhere in Europe and where if life deals them a hard blow they will be left on the scrap heap to struggle. - vote No
See the thing is it matters not one iota what Ducati says or what I say - you need to decide on what is important to YOU.
Whether that is Ducati's cost benefit analysis or the chance for change that is the driving force for my decision or a greener more ecologically responsible government,the chance to rid ourselves of trident.
There has been some utter utter claptrap posted on this board in the last few days, god knows what's been put in the water but you know - with any risk assessment - and make no mistake folks both YES and NO votes are a risk - but with any risk assessment one of the questions you should ask yourself is "Is it likely". So look at the more bizarre and extreme statements and ask yourselves that question and even the most basic of all the questions.
Many posters would have us believe that the rest of the UK subsidises Scotland - is it likely that Westminster would subsidise Scotland when they won't even subsidise a spare bedroom for a disabled person to keep their wheelchair in? Is it likely that Westminster would allow Scotland to have free education, prescriptions and free personal care if they were paying for it? Is it likely that a country which is rich in resources, people, has some of the best universities, which has had governments who know how to balance budgets would crash and burn like Tangerine Dream suggested? Is it likely that the EU is going to deny Scotland membership given that on Independence Day Scotland's population is almost completely made up of EU citizens and Scotland already meets the Copenhagan Criteria necessary for membership?
Make your decision on what is important to YOU and for YOUR family.
You see, I think a yes vote would deny my children the opportunity to grow and develop in the United Kingdom so it is just a difference of view.
Say they wanted to be a Nuclear Physicist (or learn to spell).
If they wanted to be a nuclear physicist then they could just as easily BE a nuclear physicist if they are born, grow up and are educated in an Independent Scotland as in the UK. Once again if the opportunity to be part of a United Kingdom is what is important to you then that is what you vote on.
If they wanted to be a nuclear physicist then they could just as easily BE a nuclear physicist if they are born, grow up and are educated in an Independent Scotland as in the UK. Once again if the opportunity to be part of a United Kingdom is what is important to you then that is what you vote on.
Oh? With no nuclear energy or anything else nuclear it would be a pretty pointless career choice don't you think?
Unless we want to pay for the education of someone who would have no choice but to take their skills to another country.
Oh? With no nuclear energy or anything else nuclear it would be a pretty pointless career choice don't you think?
We don't know for sure about that. It will be up to the people of an independent Scotland to vote in a pro-nuclear energy government.
What we should be doing in September is a cost/benefit analysis.
Do I have anything to lose? No...Vote yes
Do I have anything to lose? Yes...Vote No
No Campaigners always want to reduce the debate to money. Its all they care about.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/davidhayman_zpse5c565c1.jpg
Say they wanted to be a Nuclear Physicist....
Say they wanted to be a Professional Assassin?
No Campaigners always want to reduce the debate to money. Its all they care about.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/davidhayman_zpse5c565c1.jpg
Nevertheless, no one is going to vote for the risk of losing everything they have have worked hard all there lives for. Is that selfish? Or do you think I'm wrong?
We don't know for sure about that. It will be up to the people of an independent Scotland to vote in a pro-nuclear energy government.
We don't know for sure about anything, that is a bit of an issue don't you think?
We don't know for sure about anything, that is a bit of an issue don't you think?
Tell me for sure what the future of the UK is going to be. I bet you can't. The UK has changed out of all recognition to me since I was a boy.
Nevertheless, no one is going to vote for the risk of losing everything they have have worked hard all there lives for. Is that selfish? Or do you think I'm wrong?
What have you got to lose? Your business is mobile valeting. Can you explain how after independence cars are not going to get dirty?
Tell me for sure what the future of the UK is going to be. I bet you can't. The UK has changed out of all recognition to me since I was a boy.
Pretty much the same. I was a boy once, growing up in England, not long after the war (WWII) nothing much has changed, except unemployment seems a lot lower than the traditional 3 million, and I have had a pretty steady improvement in living standards over the years and now semi retired, look forward to different challenges and interests. How about you?
What have you got to lose? Your business is mobile valeting. Can you explain how after independence cars are not going to get dirty?
See other post about semi-retirement. I wasn't always a Valeter and it isn't all I do.;) Funnily enough, I seem to work harder now than I ever did, but I enjoy it more, a lot less pressure. :)
See other post about semi-retirement. I wasn't always a Valeter and it isn't all I do.;)
So you are one of the privileged that David Hayman was talking about then? :confused
So you are one of the privileged that David Hayman was talking about then? :confused
I'm not going to apologise for working hard all my life! You are starting to sound a bit Trotsky. I have always held a suspicion that an independent Scotland would swing that way.
Funnily enough, I seem to work harder now than I ever did, but I enjoy it more, a lot less pressure. :)
Yes but working hard when you do not have another income brings its own pressures. Good luck to you, not everyone is in your position.
Yes but working hard when you do not have the financial backing of a previous income brings its own pressures. Good luck to you, not everyone is in your position.
I know, I've done it! And now as some orgers and at least one Mod have lost their sense of humour I shall be bowing out.
I know, I've done it!
So can you explain how working hard in an independent Scotland will not bring the same rewards that you have enjoyed?
orkneycadian
20-May-14, 07:06
I take it Rheghead, that you have not heard of the Common Agricultural Policy reforms?
I haven't decided yet but I'm off, out.
I think it will be very bad for me. Do you think it will be very good for you? If so, why? Another Nat asking about my ethnicity, I imagine that will get worse if it does happen. Why does it matter? Many many people elligable to vote in the referendum are not Scots.
And of course, if it does happen, and the immigration targets are set by the SNP or the Greens (for instance) the Scots will soon be outnumbered in their own country, I don't care about that but I know a lot of Scots that do.
ducati I want a fairer society. Decisions about Scotland`s best interest made in Scotland. A written constitution.
An end to England`s Ruling classes divide and rule.
I agree that there are lots of questions about Scotland`s future as an Independent Nation but I want the decisions about Scotland`s future to be made here in Scotland. The decisions will be made by whatever Political Party elected in 2016 that we the population of Scotland think best serve our interests.
Of course it will mean a setting up of New Scottish Political Parties not run by the present U.K. setup. Hopefully new rules can be made to stop the fiddlers of expenses and corrupt M.P`s that are endemic in Westminster.
On immigration: I welcome immigration to Scotland, but new rules should be put in place. Namely, that all immigrants have a job to go to, (verifiable) a place to live, (not with relatives so they can claim overcrowding and jump the housing list)
Speak the English language. Proper verifiable qualifications not bought from some dodgy college.
The vote, in case it escapes your notice is for all the population of Scotland. I do not give a damn what you describe yourself as, You at present are a British Citizen residing in Scotland and therefore entitled to vote in the referendum. I do care about and value your opinion about your hopes and fears about an Independent Scotland or indeed staying part of the U.K. I am not a Nat as you describe me. I only, in my opinion see the best way forward for Scotland is as an independent nation.
If at any stage that you feel angry about a yes voter saying as-it-is, consider this. Are you feeling that way because you cannot think of anything better to say?
Well I thought the same until I thought about it. I like to think that I think about things analytically, I don't take kindly to some person saying stuff that doesn't have a good factual foundation. In the end, I had to convert from a No voter to a Yes voter BECAUSE what the No campaign said didn't stand up to scrutiny, it was all scaremongering and I thought the best people to decide Scotland's Future was the people of Scotland. I couldn't prop up the Better Together Campaign's propaganda anymore without having myself proved wrong again after again. It isn't about flags or borders, the referendum is about democracy and I believe the people of Scotland are best positioned to decide what is best for Scotland.
Forget SNP, forget party politics. Look at at this photo.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/yesnationalist_zpsc9d9655c.png
I take it Rheghead, that you have not heard of the Common Agricultural Policy reforms?
Would that be the effect on Scotland as part of the UK or the effect on Scotland as an independent country, though? Scotland loses CAP receipts as part of the UK and would get more as an independent country in the EU. Come 2016, instead of receiving the third lowest CAP payments in the EU, Scotland will, the way the UK distributes the receipts, get pretty much the lowest, not just in the EU, but within the UK itself, despite agriculture being comparatively more important to the Scottish economy than it is elsewhere in the UK. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/budget-facts31102012
rob murray
21-May-14, 14:59
ducati I want a fairer society. Decisions about Scotland`s best interest made in Scotland. A written constitution.
An end to England`s Ruling classes divide and rule.
I agree that there are lots of questions about Scotland`s future as an Independent Nation but I want the decisions about Scotland`s future to be made here in Scotland. The decisions will be made by whatever Political Party elected in 2016 that we the population of Scotland think best serve our interests.
Of course it will mean a setting up of New Scottish Political Parties not run by the present U.K. setup. Hopefully new rules can be made to stop the fiddlers of expenses and corrupt M.P`s that are endemic in Westminster.
On immigration: I welcome immigration to Scotland, but new rules should be put in place. Namely, that all immigrants have a job to go to, (verifiable) a place to live, (not with relatives so they can claim overcrowding and jump the housing list)
Speak the English language. Proper verifiable qualifications not bought from some dodgy college.
The vote, in case it escapes your notice is for all the population of Scotland. I do not give a damn what you describe yourself as, You at present are a British Citizen residing in Scotland and therefore entitled to vote in the referendum. I do care about and value your opinion about your hopes and fears about an Independent Scotland or indeed staying part of the U.K. I am not a Nat as you describe me. I only, in my opinion see the best way forward for Scotland is as an independent nation.
An end to England`s Ruling classes divide and rule...oh yeah ? read on
A striking statistic is that men in the Shettleston area of Glasgow have a life expectancy of 68, while their counterparts in Lenzie, eight miles away, can expect to be on this earth for 82 years.
So everyone knows about life expectancy as a symptom of massive inequalities within Scotland which cry out to be addressed. We do not need to look beyond our borders. Poverty lives cheek by jowl with plenty, all within our own small nation, our own cities, our own towns. Eight miles and 14 years of life apart.
That should be a central challenge for any Scottish Government worthy of the name, using the many levers at their disposal. It goes to the root of questions about whether finite resources are being used to attack such inequalities – which, patently, they are not – or to sustain and indeed widen them.
But then fast-forward to last week’s ludicrous proposal from Shona Robison, on behalf of the SNP administration, that Scottish pensioners should be paid earlier than English ones because “we” die younger.
The geographic comparison which Ms Robison selected was not between Shettleston and Lenzie. Instead, it was between “some areas of Glasgow” and Harrow, which is a posh-sounding place in the south of England; a place for which, unlike Shettleston and Lenzie, Ms Robison and the Scottish Government have absolutely no responsibility.
And therein lies the kernel of why Nationalism is such an unpleasant and deceptive creed. To recognise the inequalities within Scotland involves both challenge and responsibility. In contrast, pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England is a grotesque caricature, intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. And also, of course, to evade responsibility.
The weird demand for pension-age differentials comes out of the same political dung-heap. Are rich Scots to benefit from this distinction along with poor ones? Is a factory worker in Liverpool to qualify for her pension later than Ann Gloag or the Weirs? Or is it all just ill-considered rubbish designed, like so much else, to drive wedges and resentments on the basis of identity?
An end to England`s Ruling classes divide and rule...oh yeah ? read on
A striking statistic is that men in the Shettleston area of Glasgow have a life expectancy of 68, while their counterparts in Lenzie, eight miles away, can expect to be on this earth for 82 years.
So everyone knows about life expectancy as a symptom of massive inequalities within Scotland which cry out to be addressed. We do not need to look beyond our borders. Poverty lives cheek by jowl with plenty, all within our own small nation, our own cities, our own towns. Eight miles and 14 years of life apart.
That should be a central challenge for any Scottish Government worthy of the name, using the many levers at their disposal. It goes to the root of questions about whether finite resources are being used to attack such inequalities – which, patently, they are not – or to sustain and indeed widen them.
But then fast-forward to last week’s ludicrous proposal from Shona Robison, on behalf of the SNP administration, that Scottish pensioners should be paid earlier than English ones because “we” die younger.
The geographic comparison which Ms Robison selected was not between Shettleston and Lenzie. Instead, it was between “some areas of Glasgow” and Harrow, which is a posh-sounding place in the south of England; a place for which, unlike Shettleston and Lenzie, Ms Robison and the Scottish Government have absolutely no responsibility.
And therein lies the kernel of why Nationalism is such an unpleasant and deceptive creed. To recognise the inequalities within Scotland involves both challenge and responsibility. In contrast, pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England is a grotesque caricature, intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. And also, of course, to evade responsibility.
The weird demand for pension-age differentials comes out of the same political dung-heap. Are rich Scots to benefit from this distinction along with poor ones? Is a factory worker in Liverpool to qualify for her pension later than Ann Gloag or the Weirs? Or is it all just ill-considered rubbish designed, like so much else, to drive wedges and resentments on the basis of identity?
And what is your point? What have respective Westminster Governments done to address these problems which exist in the whole of the U.K.?
Health inequalities are shocking.
It's not just central belt stuff though - check out life expectancy in South Kessock compared to Milton of Leys or Pulteneytown compared to Areas of Thurso. It's important to note that health inequalities are not only an NHS issue. That social issues like poverty, poor education, poor housing, unemployment, are the drivers that lead to huge health inequalities.
Rob suggests that the Scottish Gov has not done anything or enough to tackle these. Well off the top of my head they have introduced measures to reduce the effect of some of the welfare reforms, the reduction in council tax benefit, the bedroom tax - a significant amount of the limited money the Scottish Government is allocated has gone to reduce the effect of these "reforms". They have introduced free prescriptions, they have increased support for carers, the Scottish Welfare Fund, the Community Jobs Fund, the initiatives to improve breast feeding, the early years workers and so on and so on. They are doing more than many of us would think to tackle the underlying issues which lead to health inequalities.
Why are we not seeing massive improvements then. Well that is because the most important powers required to reduce health inequality in any society is control over welfare, taxation and spending priorities. Scotland can only do what it can with the money it is GIVEN. Not the money it raises, not the money WE earn, the money that we are given to spend on the bits that we can. Scotland, whilst it can do what it can is not able to change things FUNDAMENTALLY because we do not have the power to do so. The power to change welfare policy, to raise and spend our own taxes. To slag off the Scottish Government for failing to address health inequalities ignores this and makes no sense. Only a YES vote will give Scotland the power to tackle this issue.
The pension age thing is a different issue - this policy is not about health inequalities. Nor is the comparison Rob has taken such exception to, about ethnic agitation.
Firstly for anyone to get up tight because the Scottish Government discusses life expectancy when developing pension policy is a bit naive. Your life insurers and your own pension providers make a judgement about how long people live when developing their policies. That's normal actuarial practice.
The issue with pension age is that Scotland does not have the power to design or develop it's own pension policy just now. And so we have the Westminster policy being implemented which is to raise the pension age because people are living longer. And so they are - in Harrow! People in the rest of the UK ARE living longer but here in Scotland we are not. Scotland has no need for this policy because the issues which affect harrow, or jarrow for that matter are not affecting Scotland and Yet we cannot say, actually we don't need this policy because we don't have this issue. Just like the bedroom tax was designed to address issues around housing in London and South East or the immigration policy is designed to address issues in the rest of the UK, the pension age rise ignores what Scotland needs or doesn't need.
The comparison was not some narrow nationalist racist claptrap but a comparison which clearly indicates the need for Scotland to be able to design policies which meet our own needs and address our own problems. Only a YES vote gives Scotland that power.
Rob clearly is angry about health inequalities and the lack of improvements in this area and yet he doesn't want to vote for the powers to change things. I don't get that. If we want changes in Scotland, in the UK, in the world then we have to take the opportunities offered to us.
Be the change you want to see in the world someone said - independence gives us the chance to do exactly that.
rob murray
22-May-14, 13:58
And what is your point? What have respective Westminster Governments done to address these problems which exist in the whole of the U.K.?
The point is obvious, Yessers : stop pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England as this is a grotesque caricature, obviously intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. Obvious isnt it !
rob murray
22-May-14, 14:03
Health inequalities are shocking.
It's not just central belt stuff though - check out life expectancy in South Kessock compared to Milton of Leys or Pulteneytown compared to Areas of Thurso. It's important to note that health inequalities are not only an NHS issue. That social issues like poverty, poor education, poor housing, unemployment, are the drivers that lead to huge health inequalities.
Rob suggests that the Scottish Gov has not done anything or enough to tackle these. Well off the top of my head they have introduced measures to reduce the effect of some of the welfare reforms, the reduction in council tax benefit, the bedroom tax - a significant amount of the limited money the Scottish Government is allocated has gone to reduce the effect of these "reforms". They have introduced free prescriptions, they have increased support for carers, the Scottish Welfare Fund, the Community Jobs Fund, the initiatives to improve breast feeding, the early years workers and so on and so on. They are doing more than many of us would think to tackle the underlying issues which lead to health inequalities.
Why are we not seeing massive improvements then. Well that is because the most important powers required to reduce health inequality in any society is control over welfare, taxation and spending priorities. Scotland can only do what it can with the money it is GIVEN. Not the money it raises, not the money WE earn, the money that we are given to spend on the bits that we can. Scotland, whilst it can do what it can is not able to change things FUNDAMENTALLY because we do not have the power to do so. The power to change welfare policy, to raise and spend our own taxes. To slag off the Scottish Government for failing to address health inequalities ignores this and makes no sense. Only a YES vote will give Scotland the power to tackle this issue.
The pension age thing is a different issue - this policy is not about health inequalities. Nor is the comparison Rob has taken such exception to, about ethnic agitation.
Firstly for anyone to get up tight because the Scottish Government discusses life expectancy when developing pension policy is a bit naive. Your life insurers and your own pension providers make a judgement about how long people live when developing their policies. That's normal actuarial practice.
The issue with pension age is that Scotland does not have the power to design or develop it's own pension policy just now. And so we have the Westminster policy being implemented which is to raise the pension age because people are living longer. And so they are - in Harrow! People in the rest of the UK ARE living longer but here in Scotland we are not. Scotland has no need for this policy because the issues which affect harrow, or jarrow for that matter are not affecting Scotland and Yet we cannot say, actually we don't need this policy because we don't have this issue. Just like the bedroom tax was designed to address issues around housing in London and South East or the immigration policy is designed to address issues in the rest of the UK, the pension age rise ignores what Scotland needs or doesn't need.
The comparison was not some narrow nationalist racist claptrap but a comparison which clearly indicates the need for Scotland to be able to design policies which meet our own needs and address our own problems. Only a YES vote gives Scotland that power.
Rob clearly is angry about health inequalities and the lack of improvements in this area and yet he doesn't want to vote for the powers to change things. I don't get that. If we want changes in Scotland, in the UK, in the world then we have to take the opportunities offered to us.
Be the change you want to see in the world someone said - independence gives us the chance to do exactly that.
I agree with your points 100% absolutely, but can you not see that straying from the fundamentals of the issue, can lead people to assume or noers to portray the fundamantals as pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England and can be seen to be intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. In other words, your points are undermined by the approach adopted by Shona Robison and the like.
I agree with your points 100% absolutely, but can you not see that straying from the fundamentals of the issue, can lead people to assume or noers to portray the fundamantals as pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England and can be seen to be intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. In other words, your points are undermined by the approach adopted by Shona Robison and the like.
As long as we're joined at the hip then such a comparison is reasonable.
I don't think THEY strayed from the fundamentals of the message Rob. I think YOU did. The fundamental issue re pensions is that Scotland's life expectancy IS different from England's and therefore the policy determining retirement age needs to be different too. The comparison is absolutely valid and the only people suggesting this is a Scotland / England issue are those who have a vested interest in doing so.
rob murray
23-May-14, 12:17
I don't think THEY strayed from the fundamentals of the message Rob. I think YOU did. The fundamental issue re pensions is that Scotland's life expectancy IS different from England's and therefore the policy determining retirement age needs to be different too. The comparison is absolutely valid and the only people suggesting this is a Scotland / England issue are those who have a vested interest in doing so.
No, I didnt, nonsense like this is what is seriously turning people away from a yes vote : and your wrong, life expectancy differs markedly in England alone forget about a SCotland / Engand comparison, there is no need whatsoever to compare Govan to Harrow etc apart from playing at politics : why not Jarrow / Harrow, or some Englsih northern depressed town / city with Harrow / affluent se England ? As for your point" the only people suggesting this is a Scotland / England issue are those who have a vested interest in doing so"...come on, it was an SNP yesser who made the point !!!! so logically you are saying that they / she had a vested interest in making the point, your right there arent you. Ach...whats the point, you believe what you want to, nothing I say or anyone else says, is going to change your mind or even get you to question obvious issues, game over you win !!
You are right Rob. I'm sorry. I should have said The only people making this an anti England issue are those with a vested interest in doing so. The gap between the worst areas in Scotland ant the best areas in the rest of the UK is a valid comparison if you are making a point that the policy being implemented through the UK Does not make sense for all areas. Rob honey, I question EVERYTHING and look at EVERYTHING which is how I know about health inequalities and pension policy in the first place.
I think the political surge to UKIP in England will demonstrate to the people of Scotland that rUK and Scotland are tugging in different directions. Only Scottish independence will do what is best for both.
Are you 'Yes' yet?
I think the political surge to UKIP in England will demonstrate to the people of Scotland that rUK and Scotland are tugging in different directions. Only Scottish independence will do what is best for both.
Are you 'Yes' yet?
absolutely not
Well after much deliberation I'm going to vote yes. Mostly because of the state of Westminster politics . Having spent time in Scandanavia these last few years through work Iv'e come to appreciate how much better things are there in so many ways compared to the 'we are a world power' stuff and all the bol---cks that entails. It won't be easy to go our own way but in the long run freedom from Westminster will be the best thing for Scotland in my opinion.
The point is obvious, Yessers : stop pretending that the difference which matters is between the poorest places in Scotland and the richest places in England as this is a grotesque caricature, obviously intended to encourage prejudice and gross misunderstanding. Obvious isnt it !
Not at all rob. These inequalities exist today under successive Westminster Governments governing the Whole of the U.K.
Tangerine-Dream
26-May-14, 21:11
Not at all rob. These inequalities exist today under successive Westminster Governments governing the Whole of the U.K.
There are inequalities taking place 100 yards away from Westminster.... all this nonsense that "England" gets the wheat and Scotland gets the chaff is just pure fiction. The quality of life in Caithness compared to the quality of life in Hackney (London) is far superior and Hackney is only 6 miles away from "Westminster". You are more likely to be shot, or die from a drugs overdose, in Hackney than you are from natural causes.....
There are some right deprived areas in Scotland and there are also some very well off / affluent areas.... same in England, some nice parts, some right dumps.
I have, generally, found that the "dumps" are not a result of "Westminster", they are generally down to the residents not wanting to get off their backsides and do a day's work..... No sensible person should point the finger of blame at "Westminster" for everything bad they see around them.... it's a FACT that, in life, some people decide to go for it and make their own way whilst others prefer to sit on their backsides blaming the rest of society for their lot.
Home rule is not a panacea which will see "wealth and prosperity" for everyone, there will still be the givers and the takers..... that will not change. Question is this...... will the 5 million population of Scotland still be able to fund the takers (not sure what percentage are not working) in the lifestyle they are accustomed to? Will the workers still be able to fund a health service with free prescriptions? Will the workers manage to fund "the list is endless"?
"England" may seem a foreign country to some folk who have never been out of their country, let alone their county, but as part of the union the 60 MILLION English folk who are paying into the pot seems a little bit more reassuring than relying on 5 million...... factor in Northern Ireland and Wales (everybody seems to be forgetting them) and we have 65 million people.......
Look at it on a "Caithness" level.... let's just say that Caithness went independent from the rest of Scotland..... here are the stats: http://www.hie.co.uk/common/handlers/download-document.ashx?id=2f9860c3-f6d7-4fe1-ae28-f5881c083e6c
Caithness wouldn't stand a chance!!!! it would collapse within a month of independence from the rest of Scotland. Sheep rustling would be rife, fuel supplies would be cut off as it would not be viable to transport fuel up here, the sun would stop shining and it would be doom and gloom over the county...... oh, hold on, it's like that already!
It's all Westminsters fault ;)
There are inequalities everywhere Tangerine Dream. The thing about independence is not that it is a magic wand which will remove inequalities at one fell swoop but that it gives us the chance to change things so that we end up with something fairer. That chance does not exist as part of the Union. This is because within the union there is no choice between the three main parties and UKIP. None of them offer even the chance of addressing the staggering inequalities within the UK. In Scotland we have the best opportunity in years to choose something different - we do not have that choice within the UK.
Interesting that you pander to the view that the "takers" are simply those not working, I would suggest that the worst takers are those who avoid their taxes, big businesses who fail to meet their obligations, banks which ignore laws and banking regulations and drive economies into meltdown because of their own greed and sense of importance. Puts Mrs mackays DLA or Mr Bremners JSA into perspective doesn't it... And I have t even mentioned Westmi ster MPs who continue to inflate expenses and laugh in the face of the austerity the rest of us are supposed to get on with without complaining. So your"takers" tighten their belts, use food banks and are forced into bedroom tax induced arrears whilst the takers that I listed shirk responsibility, laugh in the face of George Osbornes austerity measures and carry on in their own self gratifying, selfish, way.
You are right too, having 65 million people paying into a pot is important to meet the needs of those 65 million. Scotland has "only" 5.5 million which might be a problem if we were trying to meet the needs of 65 million but we aren't. We are meeting the needs of 5.5 million. Makes much more sense and is perfectly affordable in an outward looking, growth focused, resource rich, wealthy country like Scotland.
Your suggestion at the end of an Independent Scotland as a massive failure is just pure nonsense. I wod have thought you would do better than the too wee, too poor stuff that has been discredited for months and months.
No one, not Cameron, not Darling, not any of the main No supporters are still saying Scotland cannot afford to go it alone. Scotland is a country rich in resources, with a healthy growing economy and is well positioned to be a successful independent country.
Personally I would not be nearly so scared of a Yes vote if we actually knew what the results would be, which we don't. Every time Salmond and Sturgeon are asked awkward questions they laugh and say reassuringly - it will all be fine. That's really not good enough.
An SNP MSP dies and is told by St Peter that he must spend one day in hell and one in heaven before choosing where to spend eternity. St Peter takes him down to hell in a lift. The doors open on a green golf course, with an elegant clubhouse and all his friends in evening dress, who rush to welcome him. They dance and make merry with caviar and champagne.
St Peter then takes the MSP up to heaven, where contented souls flit among the clouds singing and playing harps. So where will he spend eternity? He chooses hell. The lift descends. The doors open on a barren land where his friends, dressed in rags, are stuffing bin bags with piles of stinking rubbish that falls from the sky. “I don’t understand,” stammers the MSP. “Yesterday there was a golf course and champagne… and everyone was happy.” The Devil appears and smilingly explains: “Yesterday, we were campaigning… but now, you’ve voted.”
At least the poll has determined that over 99% of people will take part in the vote.
Well Badger what is it that you are so scared of, maybe we can have a proper chat about it and see where it leaves us all after that :)
Tangerine-Dream
27-May-14, 21:06
This made me laugh!
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/record-view-labour-snp-must-3611799
And the Scottish National Party are not divisive? Hell, they want to break up the most successful union ever!
BNP (British National Party) are deemed as racists yet the SNP (Scottish National Party) are seen as acceptable? UKIP are now classed as "moderate racists"?
This is getting even funnier as the months pass ;)
Tangerine-Dream
27-May-14, 21:18
I'd probably class myself as a "mild racist"........... I believe that the people in Thurso should get all the jobs and that "Halkirk" mob should not be allowed within a 5 mile radius of the town ;) They are totally ruining Thurso by undercutting locals with their shoddy "imported" workmanship..... it's time the people of Thurso said NO! to Halkirk......
Unfortunately, this is the way it's going.... we are all RACISTS and BIGOTS and we hide behind net curtains..... a YES vote (for Scotland) will at "least" prove that we have the guts to show our real hatred of our neighbours outright and will confirm that we are an insular bunch of bigots.
It's all good ;)
I get the impression that the Scottish Labour party can't put a good enough reason together as to why they are against independence. They have most to gain from it as they can go back to being a real Labour party rather than this Blairite cast off.
Keep trying Tangerine Dream. Hatred of our neighbours? Racists and Bigots?
You would have an argument if this referendum was about ethnicity, if only ethnic Scots (whoever they might be) were allowed to vote, if only ethnic Scots were being classed as citizens of an independent Scotland, if UKIP had polled 30% of the vote here in Scotland, if an Independent Scotland was planning to leave the EU, if they were planning closing Scotland's borders to any future immigration or imposing rules which mean that immigration was stopped. But guess what... None of that is happening.
This referendum is about the sort of democracy those of us who live here in Scotland want, the sort of society we want and where we want decisions made about Scotland's future .... For ALL of us, for everyone who is living here, wherever they come from.
That, Tangerine Dream is INclusive not Isolationist, it's tolerant, not bigoted and as for hate? It drips and oozes off every word in your posts lately.
Keep trying Tangerine Dream. Hatred of our neighbours? Racists and Bigots?
You would have an argument if this referendum was about ethnicity, if only ethnic Scots (whoever they might be) were allowed to vote, if only ethnic Scots were being classed as citizens of an independent Scotland, if UKIP had polled 30% of the vote here in Scotland, if an Independent Scotland was planning to leave the EU, if they were planning closing Scotland's borders to any future immigration or imposing rules which mean that immigration was stopped. But guess what... None of that is happening.
This referendum is about the sort of democracy those of us who live here in Scotland want, the sort of society we want and where we want decisions made about Scotland's future .... For ALL of us, for everyone who is living here, wherever they come from.
That, Tangerine Dream is INclusive not Isolationist, it's tolerant, not bigoted and as for hate? It drips and oozes off every word in your posts lately.
Well said.
rob murray
28-May-14, 11:42
Keep trying Tangerine Dream. Hatred of our neighbours? Racists and Bigots?
You would have an argument if this referendum was about ethnicity, if only ethnic Scots (whoever they might be) were allowed to vote, if only ethnic Scots were being classed as citizens of an independent Scotland, if UKIP had polled 30% of the vote here in Scotland, if an Independent Scotland was planning to leave the EU, if they were planning closing Scotland's borders to any future immigration or imposing rules which mean that immigration was stopped. But guess what... None of that is happening.
This referendum is about the sort of democracy those of us who live here in Scotland want, the sort of society we want and where we want decisions made about Scotland's future .... For ALL of us, for everyone who is living here, wherever they come from.
That, Tangerine Dream is INclusive not Isolationist, it's tolerant, not bigoted and as for hate? It drips and oozes off every word in your posts lately.
"This referendum is about the sort of democracy those of us who live here in Scotland want, the sort of society we want and where we want decisions made about Scotland's future .... For ALL of us, for everyone who is living here, wherever they come from ".
I couldnt agree more, and well put, your dead right and if some people, me included, dont agree with what is delivered in an independant scotland....well thats called democracy I will have to just get along with things. UK politics will see a definitie swing to the harder right ( immigration,anti EU etc ) as main stream parties react to UKIP. I am British and European, and its absolute nonsense to think that the EU can be destroyed / pulled down, tinkered with at the margins, maybe some financial restructuring, but the EU is here to stay and ol Nigel and his acolytes are tilting at windmills if they think differently ! Their vision is of a pre 1970.s Britain, main stream mid 50's, mid england, old maidens cycling to church on sunday, village cricket, good ol boys and their real ale....
I hope it is as benign a vision as that Rob. It sends shivers down my spine to think it maybe something worse - something darker.
rob murray
28-May-14, 15:19
I hope it is as benign a vision as that Rob. It sends shivers down my spine to think it maybe something worse - something darker.
Nah, no extremist right party ever made serious inroads into the UK, Mosley was rejected totally, BNP has withered away : UKIP is a one man party, a one trick pony, I heard their scottish MEP being interviewed spewing on about EU and how he would fight tooth and nail to dampen red tape, when pressed for examples he stuttered and blurted out the ol chestnut em....Health and safety impact on small businesses, when pressed to give examples of this, he couldnt, he was flumoxed, no detail whatsoever, the interviewer tore the guy to bits..what a laugh !! : if a protest party gets elements of power, people will still expect delivery, UKIP sound very wooly and loose, a one trick pony, one issue party, they cannot turn the clock back, they can push politics to the far right ( who never wanted EU ) but thats only if they can deliver / administer, if they ( and they most certainly will not ) dont deliver in localities where they have been voted in ( councillors etc ) then they will nose dive. In basic terms they will have to deal with the mundane issues, refuge collections etc etc....basic services that come first, how many people would put up with wooly councils etc in the hope that the UK, or parts of it, will leave EU, especially if Cameron gets back in and gives a referendum on EU, that will pull the rug from under UKIP.
Humerous Vegetable
28-May-14, 15:21
Much, much darker. We have already seen the Better Togethers cheering and jumping around to welcome this sad MEP into their ranks, (albeit that report has since disappeared from the "impartial" BBC website), but the likelihood of Scotland being governed by a Tory/UKIP coalition after a NO vote is looking increasingly likely, now the LibDems have destroyed themselves by linking up with the I'll-Say-Anything-For-A-Government-Limo Tory party.
I am deeply ashamed that Ukip has won a seat in Scotland. Some of you should be looking at what we'll get if there's a No vote in September.
Tangerine-Dream
28-May-14, 20:22
Keep trying Tangerine Dream.
No point in arguing with bigots, they've got their blinkers on and full steam ahead into a brick wall ;)
The Independent gives a depressing account of how remaining with the UK will affect our children. This is impartial evidence and not framed within the indyref debate.
Five million children in Britain could be “sentenced to a lifetime of poverty” by 2020 because of welfare reforms, according to research from Save the Children.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-real-costoflivingcrisis-five-million-british-children-face-life-of-poverty-thanks-to-welfare-reforms-9442061.html
Lol....Tangerine Dream - Like I say on ya go..... You, the self confessed mild racist - or was that you being satirical? I'm never sure with you ; the "better together" isolationist - that's ironic surely?
Me? I'll take my "bigoted" English self and head off with all the other people of Scotland, Scots, Polish, Pakistani, French, Romanian, South American, Indian, Chinese, and the many many other nationalities - many of whom support independence - who live here, who make Scotland their home and who are looking forward to an inclusive, outward looking, modern democracy where they are welcomed and where inequality is challenged not accepted, where fairness and equality are cornerstones of our society and it's tax, health and welfare systems not inconveniences, or things to be sold off to the highest bidder to grow nice fat cheques for shareholders.
It won't happen overnight, it might not happen in my lifetime but you know what.... We have that chance and that is a better place to be than we have as part of the UK.
modern democracyDefine that, within the EU.
Which type of 'No' voter are you?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/Rheghead/unknowns/typeofscot_zpsd664fdb4.jpg
I know I know Phil - you don't like the EU. I believe though that Scotland needs to be outwards looking and engaged with the rest of Europe and the EU is a mechanism to do that.
Chook a demus
29-May-14, 06:27
I thought the org was supposed to be a place for the people of Caithness to discuss issues, I've been watching for a while and just joined but it very much seems to me that it's been hijacked by a couple of pro-independence trolls who hijack every thread and attack anyone who doesn't hold their views. I didn't attend a recent meeting because of the threat of photography and videoing by a member on here. It's not the sort of Scotland that makes me proud to live in when people cannot respect others views and principles so much for free, fair and democratic society ....... When I'm scared to attend meetings because of political hot heads on a discussion forum I feel that free and fair no longer exist.I won't be posting again because I know that my views will just be ridiculed by those same people who seek to demean anyone with a view that isn't their own :0(((((
How are those of us here supporting independence Trolls? Neither does there seem to be much demeaning or attacking going on. I have lived in Caithness, worked in Caithness and still work in the county. My children grew up in Caithness and I support Independence. Should I not be allowed to post here? If not, why not? Interestingly there are two relatively current threads on independence and the rest are about other things. It doesn't appear that any of the other threads have been hijacked - the independence posts are largely confined to the independence related threads. Independence is as much of an issue affecting the "people of Caithness" as any other, why would it not be discussed here?
I am sorry that you were scared to attend a better together meeting - that's a real shame although the suggestion that photos might be taken is not quite the same as being threatened with a "doing" which is what seems to have happened to the poster who made the suggestion. There are political hot heads on both sides and I can understand a reluctance to stick your head above the parapet. I'm maybe used to the nonsense but I can understand it might be unsettling. It's a good job then that there are people posting on these threads that DONT support independence so that you can see both sides of the debate represented.
I guess if you aren't posting again then I don't suppose you will answer any of the points that I make but It's not particularly useful to appear, slag people off and disappear. Still each to their own.
Chook a demus
29-May-14, 07:24
I will answer as what you has just happened is commonly known on t internet as " monstering " you've now started on me and specifically targeted me why do you want to Bully me I haven't even stated a position on which way I will vote.
Thank you for making me feel so welcome as a new member I won't post again as you seem to want to have the last say and I don't engage with bullies .
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.