View Full Version : "You don’t have a vote, but you do have a voice"
Would you be influenced by friends or family in the rest of the UK? Do you care if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to stay?
My fear is the rest of the UK person in the street is pretty indifferent.
Would you be influenced by friends or family in the rest of the UK? Do you care if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to stay?
My fear is the rest of the UK person in the street is pretty indifferent.
I am all for independence, the majority of my family are for it too with the exception of one.
My other half is english but has spent much of his adult life in Scotland and he wants independence too,
he/we have on various occasions touched upon this very subject with our friends and relatives in various parts of england
and either they are indifferent to the entire independence for Scotland or they tell us outright they do not know enough about it
to make comment,
I personally am not fazed by the opinion of anyone against it, I just think they are either afraid to take the step, or they are brainwashed into the
we cannot manage alone scenario,
this idea, presented yesterday by the good PM (NOT) I thought was pathetic and an insult to the ordinary brain of the average citizen in the uk,
The way I see it is this, some people may not like Alex Salmond..but as he himself has said, why cut of your nose to spite your face" and I do believe him,
Independence, yes, bring it on the sooner the better, because if we stay with the uk..we, the Scottish will damned forever, in the eyes of Westminster and yes
they will make us pay.
Scotland is better than that, the people deserve better than what is proffered by Westminster..the last thing we need is another tory leading us down into hell.
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 09:36
I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense. All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.
I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense. All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.
I am not persuaded, and the common sense kicks in when you tick the yes box,
give the good (not) PM less of our money to throw around...
It's very simple to me. What will we win and what will we lose?
The balance is stuck firmly on the down side as far as I can see.
But the question is do you care what the rest of the UK think? It is important, if they are all pee'd off with us post indy, where is the goodwill and cooperation we will need in all the negotiations that Alex seems to think will be smooth sailing?
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 10:22
I have mixed feelings about it and dont know what to do when it comes to it. One the one hand the PM has made it very clear he does not want it and I do wonder why if Scotland is such a burden? But then all the other thoughts I have are against the split.
What about future conflict? Would GB look after Scotland or see to herself first? Look at Ireland, there is always friction there. Could it end up like that? What would it mean to all the Scots in England and English in Scotland? It could be very much them and us. anything that is divisive is rarely good.
If Scotland went alone would they be part of EU or would they go against that too? For sure what we do know is the real agenda would come out when its too late. Could it be reversed? How much would it cost? All the supposedly spare funds would likely get swallowed up sorting out new rules regs and laws.
I have never commented on this before but now the PM has brought up the English/Scottish influence to the fore it has made me think.
I have mixed feelings about it and dont know what to do when it comes to it. One the one hand the PM has made it very clear he does not want it and I do wonder why if Scotland is such a burden? But then all the other thoughts I have are against the split.
What about future conflict? Would GB look after Scotland or see to herself first? Look at Ireland, there is always friction there. Could it end up like that? What would it mean to all the Scots in England and English in Scotland? It could be very much them and us. anything that is divisive is rarely good.
If Scotland went alone would they be part of EU or would they go against that too? For sure what we do know is the real agenda would come out when its too late. Could it be reversed? How much would it cost? All the supposedly spare funds would likely get swallowed up sorting out new rules regs and laws.
I have never commented on this before but now the PM has brought up the English/Scottish influence to the fore it has made me think.
This is a worry. Scotland has always been divided. While we can blame the rest of the UK for everything it remains below the surface (mostly). But once that scapegoat is lost, what then?
I ideally would like to see Scotland independant. I don't really follow politics as it doesn't interest me but obviously the time to vote is fast approaching. I have not read the white paper, I have heard that Scotland would like to stay in Europe & adopt the euro for its currency. I am not in favour of this. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. If Scotland is to be independent & wants to join Europe, what's the point of independence? May as well stay a part of Britain at least we would have more clout against Europe, after all Britain is only a small island.
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 11:34
Would independance cause more splits?
Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?
It's very simple to me. What will we win and what will we lose?
The balance is stuck firmly on the down side as far as I can see.
But the question is do you care what the rest of the UK think? It is important, if they are all pee'd off with us post indy, where is the goodwill and cooperation we will need in all the negotiations that Alex seems to think will be smooth sailing?
The goodwill and negotiation will come from the govt, not the rest of the UK and it will be bad for them if they treat the Scottish govt with contempt because it will be to their advantage to stay pally with Eck. There will always be a negative or two for every positive but i really couldn't care less who down south is peed off with us up here. By my reckoning this is payback for all the crap i have had to put up with over the years.
Would independance cause more splits?
Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?
Further scaremongering about the Shetland and Orkneys wanting independence is funny. Say Scotland as a whole gets independence and takes the Isles with them. rUK want the isles to come back to them and give them the opportunity. How would that look in the eyes of the rest of the world? England allowing Scotland to divvy itself from the UK yet taking back into the fold the oil producing island parts and leaving Scotland high and dry? What kind of statement would this make to the rest of the world? I don't recall any other country in the world that is separated by another country such as Scotland which would be in the middle of England and the Isles. How long before the Isles realise that the English Govt is sucking them dry just like they claim Scotland would do? Would Cameron (or any future prime minister) continue giving the Isles the pittance it gets now despite them being oil rich? Nah i don't think the Isles would put up with that and go back to the UK if they wanted away from Scotland. If they don't want to be part of Scotland then i think they would be better off going it alone.
Tubthumper
08-Feb-14, 12:00
It worries me that the 'no' tendency seem happy to use terms like 'fat', 'swivel-eyed' and 'fishface' when discussing politics. Doesn't seem very mature to me.
The Islands especially the far I north oil rich area they might want to be truelly independent from Britain. Some of the islanders already class themselves as a separate country or have stronger aliences with say Norway? What would Scotland do then, fight to get them back?
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 12:26
Further scaremongering about the Shetland and Orkneys wanting independence is funny. Say Scotland as a whole gets independence and takes the Isles with them. rUK want the isles to come back to them and give them the opportunity. How would that look in the eyes of the rest of the world? England allowing Scotland to divvy itself from the UK yet taking back into the fold the oil producing island parts and leaving Scotland high and dry? What kind of statement would this make to the rest of the world? I don't recall any other country in the world that is separated by another country such as Scotland which would be in the middle of England and the Isles. How long before the Isles realise that the English Govt is sucking them dry just like they claim Scotland would do? Would Cameron (or any future prime minister) continue giving the Isles the pittance it gets now despite them being oil rich? Nah i don't think the Isles would put up with that and go back to the UK if they wanted away from Scotland. If they don't want to be part of Scotland then i think they would be better off going it alone.
No scaremongering intended at all :)
Im just typing up the immediate questions that occur to me.
Yes Orkney and Shetland are oil rich. But I do know that a lot of born and bred Orcadians do not consider themselves or their homeland to be Scottish. No idea what Shetlanders think as I have not personally spoken to any of them. On the one hand they are oil rich but on the other they are armed forces and therefore protection poor. There is generally safety in numbers. Maybe they would choose their own independence down the line and if they did how would mainland Scotland manage financially? If the islands decided to go it alone because they did not want the financial burden of mainland Scotland but had lost the protection of the united armed forces we all enjoy the protection of at the moment then maybe we would all be worse off one way or another? Im thinking of all the unrest in other oil rich but divided and warring nations. I dont want to see that in my lifetime.
Where there is oil money there is greed. Maybe the sooner it runs out the better?
At the moment I am very open to both sides. Feel free to help me decide one way or the other ;)
Would independance cause more splits?
Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?
Don't follow this splits thing?
The Press & Journal did a poll last year & only 5% were in favour of the Northern Isles breaking away. Even if they did would they be like the Isle of man or Channel Isles, crown dependencies? If so they lose the oil as those types of countries only have a 12 mile sea limit. Their police forces is Highland currently & all major health problems are handled by ether Aberdeen hospital or Inverness. Where would they go, Newcastle?
We would have armed forces but a lot less as we would not need them. We would not act as a imperial force as we now do in Iraq & Afghanistan. We would not have nuclear forces and so save a huge amount of money there.
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 15:26
That might explain those Russian warship incursions just testing the waters see if Scotland would be an easy snag and grab some oil whilst you're at it.
Scotland doesn't need to have splits with the islands. Half hate the other half already. Whether it be along religious or geographical lines, Highlanders and Lowlanders, Catholic and Protestant or merely locals and incomers. :mad:
It worries me that the 'no' tendency seem happy to use terms like 'fat', 'swivel-eyed' and 'fishface' when discussing politics. Doesn't seem very mature to me.
Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect? :lol:
Scotland doesn't need to have splits with the islands. Half hate the other half already. Whether it be along religious or geographical lines, Highlanders and Lowlanders, Catholic and Protestant or merely locals and incomers. :mad:Too true we are a clan nation :-)
Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect? :lol:We don't really choose the party leader on his good looks we choose the party as a whole :O
The goodwill and negotiation will come from the govt, not the rest of the UK and it will be bad for them if they treat the Scottish govt with contempt because it will be to their advantage to stay pally with Eck. There will always be a negative or two for every positive but i really couldn't care less who down south is peed off with us up here. By my reckoning this is payback for all the crap i have had to put up with over the years.
Certainly I would agree wholeheartedly with that, all of it.
Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect? :lol:
That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.
That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.
He does not have my vision or my vote
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 17:13
You will all be pleased to know I have had no calls from friends and family down south to ask me to vote either way.
Actually putting forward the idea that people with the right to vote should be pressured from elsewhere is a bit iffy to say the least! :confused
Actually putting forward the idea that people with the right to vote should be pressured from elsewhere is a bit iffy to say the least! :confused
Not at all, that's what the iffy govt and iffy NO campaign numpties are doing this very minute. Iffy scaremongering and iffy pressurising people into retaining an iffy govt...
Popping in..(Hi)
Hi beks, how's it going?
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 18:50
Not at all, that's what the iffy govt and iffy NO campaign numpties are doing this very minute. Iffy scaremongering and iffy pressurising people into retaining an iffy govt...
You are entitled to your opinion as am I :)
Maybe my vote will be worth selling? There are enough people 'passionate' enough to pay for it I should think. Selling a vote to the highest bidder would be no worse than trying to tell someone else how to vote.
http://www.scotreferendum.com/
I am open to either way at the moment. I am looking at the above site to try make an informed choice. Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me :)
You are entitled to your opinion as am I :)
Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me :)
Kinda difficult to say why it will benefit you precisely but as a whole it would probably benefit the nation. Singling out one person for what the benefit would be is not a good way to weigh up the case for independence nor sway a vote. Many things might benefit me which won't benefit you and vice versa. What i can say is that independence will benefit the NO voters in just the same way as it will benefit the YES voters but if there was a wee box on the ballot paper beside the NO vote that stated "tick here if you want no part of the benefits of independence should it happen" i wonder just how many NO voters would tick it?
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 19:18
You could turn that around and ask all the yes voters if it happens and things go belly up as a consequence of the yes vote will they take the flak, leave what perks there are left and bail out the no voters? No easy answer!
Popping in..(Hi)Well now there's a surprise. Where have you been Beks sweetie? Did you fall down a big hole? Or perhaps you took a wrong turning off the North Highland Way and were bored to death by delusionists? :(
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 19:48
That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.Yes lots of people have visions quite a few get locked up in lunatic asylums especially when they refuse to accept realities. Meanwhile back to the white paper and the answer to all the unanswered questions . It will be negotiated :0))
Hi Duc & Crayola - sorry just been watching the rugger at Murrayfield (Dear oh dear).. Yes was a bit surprised my original bit on the NHW years ago was resurrected, and met with an untimely death.. but never mind.
I see a LOT of sock-puppets have appeared since I last graced this august forum? Again never mind, takes all types I suppose to pretend to be someone else to make it look like more than oneself to augment ones argument.
Must stop for refreshment after watching the dismal showing at MF, why, my goodness even the Scots were booing!
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 19:53
I must say I enjoyed the Rugby sort of like the independence idea. Lots of great ideas lots of potential but distinctly lacking the drive and tenacity to pull it off because of a host of missed opportunities :0)
You are entitled to your opinion as am I :)Maybe my vote will be worth selling? There are enough people 'passionate' enough to pay for it I should think. Selling a vote to the highest bidder would be no worse than trying to tell someone else how to vote.http://www.scotreferendum.com/I am open to either way at the moment. I am looking at the above site to try make an informed choice. Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me :)Maybe you should sell your vote on eBay to some patriotic Scot living down south? ;-)
I must say I enjoyed the Rugby sort of like the independence idea. Lots of great ideas lots of potential but distinctly lacking the drive and tenacity to pull it off because of a host of missed opportunities :0)Ouch....that hurt!
He does not have my vision or my vote
Would not really be a democracy if everyone voted for the same party.
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 20:10
Maybe you should sell your vote on eBay to some patriotic Scot living down south? ;-)
Never thought of that!
Maybe I will get something out of it after all :)
my question is why are the english so desperate to keep hold of scotland
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 20:16
This is the selling point for the yes people. It has occurred to me too!
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 20:18
my question is why are the english so desperate to keep hold of scotlandWhat makes you think they are
cameron and his better together , the mans running scared
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 20:26
cameron and his better together , the mans running scaredI wouldn't say he's running scared he's just not being drawn into a slanging match with the ECKOr he just has other more pressing issues like the southwest of England under water
if hes not running scared why his big speech yesterday. if hes not bohered why waste tax payers money on a speech about it
I am in a quandary tonight, should I vote yes? Now if Eck the omnipotent will guarantee, that the Scotland Rugby team and Hibernian and dare I say the Tic will play much better than they did today, I would give it a serious option.
if hes not running scared why his big speech yesterday. if hes not bohered why waste tax payers money on a speech about itThe speech was quite a pathetic plea. I'm glad I'm not English or in England
cameron and his better together , the mans running scared
Why should he debate with a minor politician, Eck is not a Head of State, never see him getting invited to G8 summits, or the like. David Cameron represents the UK
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 20:46
Also if Scotland does go for independence then the Conservative Party can look forward to winning more elections
Bobinovich
08-Feb-14, 20:52
Having read a few articles on both HS2 recently I get the feeling that the project is much like independence.
If the Government get their way HS2 will be built at massive cost, but they are so sure that the benefits to the country will outweigh both the cost and any problems encountered, but in reality no-one really knows whether it will be a success until after it is built & has been operating for some time.
Similarly the SNP give the same rhetoric - 'Yes, it's a step in the dark, but trust us and everything will be fine', but no-one really knows what lies beyond a Yes vote...
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 21:12
Also if Scotland does go for independence then the Conservative Party can look forward to winning more elections
Why? Is Scotland massively conservative?
The Scottish NHS would surely be short of funds?
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 21:30
Why? Is Scotland massively conservative?The Scottish NHS would surely be short of funds?If you remove Scotland from the equation which tends to be more left of centre then the Conservative Party would win elections unless there is a massive swing from traditional voting trends
Why should he debate with a minor politician, Eck is not a Head of State, never see him getting invited to G8 summits, or the like. David Cameron represents the UK
Cameron is not head of state either, that is the monarch. Neither is Alec Salmond a minor politician, he is the elected head of a nation, Scotland. The leading member of a democratically elected parliament. You may like him or not, that makes no difference to the position he holds. There are many properly elected leaders of nations or heads of states depending on their constitutions that I dislike but I would not denigrate the position they hold.
Can we have a proper discussion without these puerile name calling
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 21:34
Surely Scotland would have its own elections? So then it would be labour?
If you remove Scotland from the equation which tends to be more left of centre then the Conservative Party would win elections unless there is a massive swing from traditional voting trends
They may win more but in the past the Scottish Labour MP's have only enabled one labour government.
Salmon's a third rate politician, a big fish in a very very small pond, blinking heck we're not talking world politics here, The voting population of Scotland is near enough what's carried on the Underground in London - get things into perspective! Old Boris down in London looks after twice the population of this country!
Salmon only got in 'cos folk were jarred off with Labour for goodness sake. Last year the Aberdeen Donside by-election, SNP held on, but with a vastly reduced majority, with a swing to Labour from SNP of 9%, the Dunfirmline by-election labour took the seat from SNP with a 7% swing, the recent Cowdenbeath by-election Labour had a 11.25% (!) swing from SNP to Labour. Duh get the message?,
All this burble of 'running scared'; absolute nonsense, considering that the polls are showing the majority of voters up here don't want indy, are they ALL running scared? AND here we go again yet another bleeding poll on the org - ain't they aware there's been dozens of these on this site? most - apart from those who seem to believe a poll on the forum will be more exact than extensive polls - needs their head examined.
Night...
Surely Scotland would have its own elections? So then it would be labour?
Could be but all the 3 UK parties would be freed of Westminster control. I think we would see them all change policies. Hopefully they would change to suit the needs of Scotland & not the SE England as currently.
Also remember Holyrood has been setup or so they thought that not one party would have a majority. The odds are it would be a coalition government. I am not sure how the SNP would fair in a independent Scotland as some, if not a lot of voters would return to their original parties. They may not though as the polls show the electorate seem to happy with how they are running the country, so they may stay with them.
Hope this helps
All this burble of 'running scared'; absolute nonsense, considering that the polls are showing the majority of voters up here don't want indy, are they ALL running scared? AND here we go again yet another bleeding poll on the org - ain't they aware there's been dozens of these on this site? most - apart from those who seem to believe a poll on the forum will be more exact than extensive polls - needs their head examined.
Night...
The last 7 polls have shown a swing to the Yes side. All the pollsters say the result will be very close.
if cameron is not worried about losing scotland why is he wasting money on speeches about better together. if scotland is such a drain on the uk economy cameron and party would be happy to get rid of scotland
RagnarRocks
08-Feb-14, 21:53
It really doesn't cost much to make a speech especially if you're prime minister
Southern-Gal
08-Feb-14, 22:12
http://www.wcrf-uk.org/about_us/media/press_release.php?recid=201
Scotland has high statistics for obesity, alcoholism and drug abuse. I know it goes on elsewhere but the statistics prove there is more of it up here, it cant be denied.
How would it be funded and dealt with? The NHS is currently funded by all the UK tax payers. Are there enough in Scotland paying tax to keep an NHS for Scotland going?
What if it started to collapse?
westminster give scotland a budget, a pitence of what scotland put in, yet we can freeze council tax, free education etc, yet england have to pay it is the english that will struggle hence the reason why there scared of losing scotland. i rest my case
Tubthumper
08-Feb-14, 22:28
http://www.wcrf-uk.org/about_us/media/press_release.php?recid=201Scotland has high statistics for obesity, alcoholism and drug abuse. I know it goes on elsewhere but the statistics prove there is more of it up here, it cant be denied. We've achieved these stats under Westminster. Will we be able to maintain them under our own steam? ?
I am in a quandary tonight, should I vote yes? Now if Eck the omnipotent will guarantee, that the Scotland Rugby team and Hibernian and dare I say the Tic will play much better than they did today, I would give it a serious option.
OH! i nearly choked on my beer then!! The NO CHANCE Golach himself now having a wee sway to himself! Crivvens and jings almighty!.....go on, Vote YES, you know you want to!
Its a postcode lottery already for NHS treatment, I don't imagine independence would hamper peoples ability to move & choose where the best place live to suit their needs North or South of the border.
OH! i nearly choked on my beer then!! The NO CHANCE Golach himself now having a wee sway to himself! Crivvens and jings almighty!.....go on, Vote YES, you know you want to!Am I being ludicrous or not? Eck and his promises are in the same league, he promises us the Earth, but can he bring all his guaruntees to fruition?
Am I being ludicrous or not? Eck and his promises are in the same league, he promises us the Earth, but can he bring all his guaruntees to fruition?
Why should it be 'Eck' who is FM. In 2016 we don't know which party would be running a independent Scotland or in 2021. What we do know is the the people living in Scotland would of voted them in.
It doesn't say much for a Scottish education the number of times I see 'would of' instead of 'would have' on here. Presumably the teachers did their job but the perpetrators refuse to learn?
We've achieved these stats under Westminster. Will we be able to maintain them under our own steam? ?
Certain things are, even now, completely in the hands of the Scots.:cool:
There was an interesting series of articles in the Financial Times this week about Scottish Independence. I will find them and link to them for anyone who is interested in reading them.
Southern-Gal
09-Feb-14, 10:28
Its a postcode lottery already for NHS treatment, I don't imagine independence would hamper peoples ability to move & choose where the best place live to suit their needs North or South of the border.
But if half the population is either too big to work, too ill to work, too drunk or too drugged up it could end up not mattering where you live north of the border as a Scottish NHS would simply be too stretched to cope. Fine for a while until what is left of the oil is gone but what then? As a nation the Scots have totted up dire health statistics, it is a well known fact. The NHS is surely propping up Scotland in this respect? Im not meaning Caithness, the whole of Scotland :)
But if half the population is either too big to work, too ill to work, too drunk or too drugged up it could end up not mattering where you live north of the border as a Scottish NHS would simply be too stretched to cope. Fine for a while until what is left of the oil is gone but what then? As a nation the Scots have totted up dire health statistics, it is a well known fact. The NHS is surely propping up Scotland in this respect? Im not meaning Caithness, the whole of Scotland :)I'm sure NHS in Scotland is well aware of its lardy, ill, drunk, druggy burdens your implys not mine. If the health service would collapse because of these issues, then your vote would surely be swayed towards a no vote.
There was an interesting series of articles in the Financial Times this week about Scottish Independence. I will find them and link to them for anyone who is interested in reading them.Yes I would be interested in reading
It doesn't say much for a Scottish education the number of times I see 'would of' instead of 'would have' on here. Presumably the teachers did their job but the perpetrators refuse to learn?Oh dear......I didn't realize it wiz a test
Southern-Gal
09-Feb-14, 11:21
I'm sure NHS in Scotland is well aware of its lardy, ill, drunk, druggy burdens your implys not mine. If the health service would collapse because of these issues, then your vote would surely be swayed towards a no vote.
No definitely not my words or implications. Yours :)
This potential problem does not appear to be acknowledged or addressed in the white paper. If this is the case then yes my vote would be a no.
Please feel free to put me straight on this.
Where is it dealt with in the white paper?
Not content with too fat too lazy and too sick to succeed as an independent country Ducati had now added too stupid. It always surprises me that people fo not know that Scots language has its own rules, spelling grammar and words,
Southern-Gal
09-Feb-14, 11:33
The white paper has been written by the pro independence people. If how the NHS is going to cope is not covered in it then it does make me wonder if this is because they simply dont know.
I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.
I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.
I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling.
I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.
I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.
I could carry on with the list all day, but I won't.
If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot.
Oh dear......I didn't realize it wiz a test
No it isn't, and I am as guilty of the odd spello and typo as anyone else. However, if this very simple thing that would be very easy to learn correctly is not addressed in the very early stages of learning to read and write, then what else is the education system failing in?
Not content with too fat too lazy and too sick to succeed as an independent country Ducati had now added too stupid. It always surprises me that people fo not know that Scots language has its own rules, spelling grammar and words,
Excuse me, I've lived in Scotland for more than 20 years. I think you will find English is English regardless of your use of the local dialect. I didn't accuse anyone of stupidity, if you took that from what I said then that is your problem. I was commenting on the education system.
I speak in a (fading) Manchester accent but I wasn't taught to write in it! (madferret madferret).
I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling.I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.I could carry on with the list all day, but I won't.If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot.That's most of the questions I would like a positive answer from oor first haggis on these subjects, but no all he is bothered about is to have an argument with our Prime Minister, but answers to the former questions he says nothing, is oor Eck the fearty?
Scenario,
2014 Scotland votes for and gets independence
2015 UK votes in elections (MP's up here with 59 seats in Westminster) maybe a Tory victory - but does not matter.
2016 24th March Elections in Scotland, and with present swing away from Nats looks like Labour in Holyrood which results in the SNP being consigned to history with the Scottish Labour parliament desperately trying to deal with something they never wanted in the first place. And there slinks away Salmond, a big smile on his face with the historical knowledge that he bought Freedom from under the English heel.
25th March 2016 Parliament dissolved in Westminster. 59 Scottish seats no longer exists.
2016 New Parliamentary elections in England, Wales N.Ireland. with 59 labour seats gone will result in permanent Tory Government in Westminster.
With the 'fishy pair' Salmond and Sturgeon (Scotland) calling Westminster - the Tories especially - all manner of names and seething with contempt, then I very much doubt if Tory Westminster will give a hoot about Scotland.
Because of the truculence and the damage that WILL be done to the UK. Whispers are that Scotland will be on it's own. Lets face it Scotland will hope to be an independent country. Currency union?. Nope. Mark Carney says it 'might' work but even he says Scotland will NOT be a Sovereign nation. But it's not up to him, it's up to the Tory Government, "Please sir can we have a currency union, so that if it all goes pair shaped we can be bailed out by you" - yea right, in your dreams!.
Go and get the Euro and get bailed out by that lot, leave us alone - you asked for independence, so stop hanging onto our petticoat tails.
Bit of FT:
Professor Nick Bosanquet of Imperial College said: “There would be great concern that a notably stable group (Scotland) in the UK had taken leave of its senses. Such a vote would leave the UK on the edge of a new spiral of falling confidence.”
Prof Bosanquet echoed the thoughts of several respondents who said a yes vote would raise concerns about the UK’s referendum on EU membership. “This uncertainty would be the biggest threat to UK economic stability. The Yes vote would be a disaster for the UK as a whole not just for Scotland,” he said.
A government adviser put it in similarly bleak terms. “It would be a catastrophe,” he said.
Twenty seven respondents believed independence would hurt the Scottish economy and the rest of the UK. Just four thought a yes vote would have a positive impact.
It's good to see you back Beks sweetie. And even better to see you haven't lost any of your forthright attitude in the intervening years. :)
Excuse me, I've lived in Scotland for more than 20 years. I think you will find English is English regardless of your use of the local dialect. I didn't accuse anyone of stupidity, if you took that from what I said then that is your problem. I was commenting on the education system. I speak in a (fading) Manchester accent but I wasn't taught to write in it! (madferret madferret).Scots is not a dialect it is a language in its own right with its own rules of grammar. Manchester - whether fading or not- and lancashire which I work hard to maintain well enough to stand up a recite at our Burns party - are dialects and not a language in their own right.
No definitely not my words or implications. Yours :)This potential problem does not appear to be acknowledged or addressed in the white paper. If this is the case then yes my vote would be a no.Please feel free to put me straight on this. Where is it dealt with in the white paper?I do apologize if I have miss interpreted your words of, " half the population is either, too big, too I'll, too drunk, too drugged up" your words not mine. Could you please explain your meaning of this?
Scots is not a dialect it is a language in its own right with its own rules of grammar. Manchester - whether fading or not- and lancashire which I work hard to maintain well enough to stand up a recite at our Burns party - are dialects and not a language in their own right.
It's made up of hundreds of dialects. But it doesn't change the fact that the original error I pointed out is just wrong.
It's made up of hundreds of dialects. But it doesn't change the fact that the original error I pointed out is just wrong.If it was an English exam paper I would agree, but this is a general forum. Picking up on gramatical errors is a wee bit extreme.
If it was an English exam paper I would agree, but this is a general forum. Picking up on gramatical errors is a wee bit extreme.
In the context of praising education it was perfectly valid. If you don't like it tough!
(Thanks Crayola..)
I think Southern-Gal was thinking along these lines?
a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the developed world,
b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the world
c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the most common cancer,
d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the highest in the world
e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the highest in Europe
f) Alcohol is still killing the equivalent of 20 people a week in Scotland, and death rates are still twice what they were in the 1980s and higher than in England and Wales.
(g) The researchers identified the five key factors which contribute most to ill health in richer countries: smoking, excessive drinking, poor diet, physical inactivity and obesity.The report stated that a shocking 97% of Scots had one or more of the risk factors. 55% had three or more whilst a staggering 20% had either four or all five factors.
h)Worryingly Scotland has one of the fastest growing chronic liver disease and cirrhosis death rates in the world and women in Scotland are as likely to die of liver cirrhosis as men in England.
j)Scotland has the highest mouth cancer rates in the whole of the UK.
k)Scotland's reputation for having the poorest eating habits in the UK has been backed up by new research.
l)Compared with England, the UK's other nations eat more calories and fat and less fruit and veg, and Scotland has the worst diet of all.
m)British Heart Foundation data shows Scots men and women still have the highest heart disease death rates in the UK
Tubthumper
09-Feb-14, 20:02
We won't have to worry about pension shortfalls then will we? If everyone dies early we'll be better off than the rUK- they're always greeting about the impending pension implosion.
We won't have to worry about pension shortfalls then will we? If everyone dies early we'll be better off than the rUK- they're always greeting about the impending pension implosion.
Ah that's Tubs. Always look on the bright side (Hey! I feel a song coming on).
Southern-Gal
09-Feb-14, 20:42
(Thanks Crayola..)
I think Southern-Gal was thinking along these lines?
a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the developed world,
b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the world
c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the most common cancer,
d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the highest in the world
e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the highest in Europe
f) Alcohol is still killing the equivalent of 20 people a week in Scotland, and death rates are still twice what they were in the 1980s and higher than in England and Wales.
(g) The researchers identified the five key factors which contribute most to ill health in richer countries: smoking, excessive drinking, poor diet, physical inactivity and obesity.The report stated that a shocking 97% of Scots had one or more of the risk factors. 55% had three or more whilst a staggering 20% had either four or all five factors.
h)Worryingly Scotland has one of the fastest growing chronic liver disease and cirrhosis death rates in the world and women in Scotland are as likely to die of liver cirrhosis as men in England.
j)Scotland has the highest mouth cancer rates in the whole of the UK.
k)Scotland's reputation for having the poorest eating habits in the UK has been backed up by new research.
l)Compared with England, the UK's other nations eat more calories and fat and less fruit and veg, and Scotland has the worst diet of all.
m)British Heart Foundation data shows Scots men and women still have the highest heart disease death rates in the UK
This is indeed what I meant, thank you.
If the NHS is already stretched with more workers then how is a Scottish NHS going to cope with more liabilities and less contributors?
Caithness is not bad on the whole for health problems compared to some of the busier places such as Glasgow but the Scottish NHS would be looking after all of Scotland and it would be expensive.
I blame the Scottish government, healthy eating education must have been neglected. If you eat seven good sized portions of fruit and veg every day plus healthy protein I find there is not much room for junk and if there is its not too much.
Quick note on the Scottish NHS.
A lass from Thurso who is pregnant and had a minor issue with a possible early delivery was taken to Aberdeen the other day. They couldn't handle her situation so they transferred her to....believe it or not....PAISLEY! where there is just one bed and it is the only hospital that has a single bed available in the WHOLE OF SCOTLAND at this moment that can handle her situation.
What's the crack when there are 2 perfectly good hospitals in Caithness and you have to bypass them both AND travel nigh on 300 miles to get help?
Whats it going to be like if independence does happen?
RagnarRocks
09-Feb-14, 22:16
Mustn't forget the High Levels of MS up here as well just to make things a little happier.
Southern-Gal
09-Feb-14, 22:20
Maybe half the staff in the hospitals in between were off 'sick'. Sickness is one of the worst wastes of money in the NHS nationally. The statistics would likely be worse if they analysed just the sickness of NHS staff in Scotland. It is certainly worse up here from what I have seen.
The pro independence people think things will improve.
The anti independence people think it will go down hill.
There is only one way to find out but I dont want to be a guinea pig any more than I have been in the past.
I would like to see some plans/figures/budgets for the Scottish NHS post independence.
In the context of praising education it was perfectly valid. If you don't like it tough!More like tough for yourself since the errors irk you, as the people making the errors are blissfully unaware or simply don't care
Southern-Gal the rest of the UK are NOT supporting, paying for or otherwise subsidising Scotland's NHS. The NHS is already independent of the rest of the UK. At its inception there was never a UK wide NHS each part of the UK had its own NHS - England Scotland Ireland and Wales. Scotland - so far has been able to prevent the NHS here going down the route of privatisation that has been followed in England. The Scottish Government has ringfenced the budget.
Southern - Gal asks how we will manage to afford the NHS if Scotland is independent - well pretty much as we do now, however there are a few bits of information worth knowing. The NHS is funded now by scottish taxpayers money which goes to the treasury and part of which comes back to the Scottish Government through the Barnett formula. This is based on how much is being spent in England on their NHS. So simplistically - The ENglish NHS costs £100 and Scotlands population share is 10% so Scotland gets £10. However the work that Westminster have done on privatising and cutting costs and services mean that England is now spending £80 on Their NHS. Scotland doesnt want to take the route that england has done and has no desire to privatie or hive off services but Scotland now only gets £8 to spend on its NHS. We currently manage to maintain funding the NHS by making cuts elsewhere - Amalgamating Police forces, closing other services. With Independence we could choose how to spend ALL the money we get. We would be free to identify our own priorities and to find money to address some of the issues that Bekisman talks about in the post he made.
Where would we find money from to do this? Well - lets see, we wont be funding trident from Scottish Taxpayers money, we wont be spendig Scottish Taxpayers money on London Sewers or High Speed Rail links - that alone would free up millions of pounds to allow us to idetify and prioritise health, hospitals, maternity services, or other things. We wont have to find £50million to mitigate the effects of the Bedroom tax because we wont have the bedroom tax. We would be saving over a billion pounds on defence spending - that money can go back into the pot to be spent on the priorities which the Scottish electorate chooses when we vote in our Government.
I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.
I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.
Every country has an aging population. Scotland would encourage immigration - we NEED immigrants to work here and pay into the system to support the economy - Westminsters policy of Cutting immigration is damaging Scotland and we have no choice just now but to do what we are told -even though it is not what Scotland needs. In an independent Scotland we would have an immigration policy which meets our needs for the future. The introduction of more affordable childcare would help parents return to work and therefore contribute to the economy - helping to fund our own future. Despite the tongue in cheek remarks that we dont live as long therefor pensions are cheaper - that is actually true. Independence would give Scotland the opportunity to tackle the health issues which Scotland faces and to deveop a programme of investment and growth and welfare policy which actually moves people into work so that they pay into the system and help to afford the cost of pensions. We dont have that now.
I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling. You cant hope to know the rate of borrowing now for 2016 however it is unlikely that Scotland will have a zero credit rating. Scotland's Government has balanced a budget for the last few years; An independent Scotland is likely to be in the top 35 countries exporting goods around the world;Scotland's GDP with oil is as big as France and without as big as Italy;Scotland is not a country with nothing, doing nothing and being nothing ( although you might be forgiven for thinking that by reading some of the stuff that appears on this board). Scotland would also grow and develop - no one is suggesting that Scotland couldnt succeed so the credit rating that Scotland has on day one of independence is not likely to remain the one that Scotland has oe, three, or five years later.
I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.You know that I would prefer Scotland to have its own currency. However the FT pointed out that there are disagreements between experts on this and that Prof Jim Mirrlees and his colleagues, argue that a currency union would require only a joint “sustainability agreement’ between London and Edinburgh. Some in the SNP accept that currency union might involve much greater limits to fiscal policy freedom, but say it would still leave an independent Scotland with far more control over its economic destiny than possible as a devolved part of the UK. Mark Carney pointed out that it may mean Scotland has less control than it would like - but it has to be said that this it would still be more control than it has now. Mr Carney also went onto say that this is a matter for the Two governments to negotiate and the Bank of England would do whatever they are told.
I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.
The plan is for a Scottish Defence Force. An independent Scotland’s military forces would include four frigates, 20,000 personnel and 16 fast jet Typhoons, according to the white paper.The white paper shows that a Scottish Defence Force will cost £2.5 billion a year and will be built up in three stages over the decade following the creation of an independent state.The Air Force part will be based at lossiemouth. The naval part will be based at faslane. There is also the fact that Scotland will be entitled to a share of the assets of the Uk and they will form part of the start up of a Scottish Defence force. There is a piece out just today which talks about that http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-5bn-defence-assets-claim-1-3299615. Its worth pointing out that Scotland currently contributes £3.3 billion to the defence budget and that currently less than £2 billion is spent in Scotland.
If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot. You cant ignore them either - this suggestion that Somehow oil and gas revenues are worthless is a bit baffling - no one - not even the gloomiest forecasters suggest that oil and gas will be worth nothing. Having oil and gas will bring in revenue - and the official SNP forecasts take the mid point of all the forecasts. There is still investment and there is still oil to be had.
There is no doubt that Scotland can be a prosperous country and that we have the potential to do very well indeed. There are answers - you have to look for them and then research them and make your own mind up based on the things that are important to you. That's all you can do. For me - the fact that in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland would be spent by a Scottish Government on priorities decided by the Scottish Electorate is enough. We do not have that now.
The FT articles are here
http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2014/02/ft-launches-week-long-series-on-scottish-independence/
You might need to register but yu can do so and read eight articles for free. Thats what I did.
(Thanks Crayola..)
I think Southern-Gal was thinking along these lines?
a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the developed world,
b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the world
c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the most common cancer,
d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the highest in the world
e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the highest in Europe
f) Alcohol is still killing the equivalent of 20 people a week in Scotland, and death rates are still twice what they were in the 1980s and higher than in England and Wales.
(g) The researchers identified the five key factors which contribute most to ill health in richer countries: smoking, excessive drinking, poor diet, physical inactivity and obesity.The report stated that a shocking 97% of Scots had one or more of the risk factors. 55% had three or more whilst a staggering 20% had either four or all five factors.
h)Worryingly Scotland has one of the fastest growing chronic liver disease and cirrhosis death rates in the world and women in Scotland are as likely to die of liver cirrhosis as men in England.
j)Scotland has the highest mouth cancer rates in the whole of the UK.
k)Scotland's reputation for having the poorest eating habits in the UK has been backed up by new research.
l)Compared with England, the UK's other nations eat more calories and fat and less fruit and veg, and Scotland has the worst diet of all.
m)British Heart Foundation data shows Scots men and women still have the highest heart disease death rates in the UK
And as this situation has arisen whilst Scotland is part of the Uk, why do you cite it as a reasons to STAY part of the UK? Health inequalities are inextricably linked to poverty and deprivation. Scotland has suffered over the last fifty years from underinvestment and destruction of traditional industries with insufficient emphasis on investment and growth. This situation has been years in the making and will take years to turn round. There is no hope of tackling these issues whilst the Bedroom tax continues to suck money out of the public finances, whilst welfare cuts target the poorest and most vulnerable leaving thousands to rely on foodbanks - how much fresh fruit and veg do you think those people relaying on food parcels get? Whilst this government in Westminster cares not one iota that its policies leave many many people without any money at all because they remove people's right to appeal, they force upon people a "reconsideration", they increase the number of sanctions in glasgow by 400% - but there are no targets for sanctions says Ian Duncan Smith. Aye..... Right.
Bekisman you think these issues are a reason for staying in the union???? These are the most pertinent reasons for voting for Independence - with independence Scotland will have - for the first time - the opportunity to prioritise health inequalities and build a coherent policy of growth, welfare,housing, taxation and health that will have at its heart the drive to improve the lives of all those people you mention in the list. We do not have that option now and without it we can only tinker around the edges with the like of the minimum price bill and the smoking ban.
strange no one come up with an answer as to why the english are so desperate to hold on to scotland, also be good to know how many people posting on this forum and anti-independant are english. am scottish and will be voting yes
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 09:21
So we go down squidges route and bring in more immigrants, well that's border posts between Scotland and the rest of the UK due to large differences in immigration policy. The reason Scotland eats unhealthy is because it wants to remember this is the country that invented the deep fried mars bar, you can go to other deprived areas and won't see the levels of obesity. The currency by no way guaranteed and the currency union seems more unlikely the Euro may well happen if you join Europe and accept all the rules.
Ireland and Britain have different Immigration Policies and there are no border posts between Ireland and Britain. It actually doesnt need to be large differences. Just the right differences. The UK is currently denying visas to people who have lived and worked here for years. Its cruel and counterproductive. Scotland may be the home of the deep fried Mars bar Ragnar but it also has some of the finest food in the world. Beef, fish, cheese, fruit - the shame should be that so many people cant afford even decent food never mind the best Scotland has to offer. As for the Euro, that is not an option for Scotland just now. You have to wait several years to join the Euro. However, at least if Scotland decided to join the Euro at some point in the Future then it would be a decision made by the people living here and not foisted on Scotland as a policy none of its MPs voted for, like the bedroom tax or the royal mail privatisation.
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 09:48
Ireland and GB have very similar immigration policies hence the lack of need for a border. I haven't seen here that an Independent Scotland would have a referendum on joining Europe so not sure where you get the statement the people would make a choice from. As for the food yes Scotland does produce fantastic food but that doesn't mean anything I put it more down to the people choosing not to eat a healthy diet you seem to have ignored the fact the in many other countries and parts of this country suffer the same if not worse poverty but don't end up obese. obesity for all the pc excuses made is the basic inability to stop cramming calories into greedy mouths and nothing else. Genuinely poor can't afford to eat the amount of calories it takes to get obese. Its very easy to quote a few cases of denied or refused visas instead of the vast majority which are refused for perfectly valid reasons .
More like tough for yourself since the errors irk you, as the people making the errors are blissfully unaware or simply don't care
Well if a simple observation (perfectly valid) is giving you an attack of the vapours, you need to pace yourself. Some of my 'observations' over the next 7 months are going to give you apoplexy.
Southern-Gal
10-Feb-14, 10:02
You present a good case Squidge :)
Vanman I too would like to know the answer to the only question you ask. I am English but dont yet know which way I will vote but do know that my decision will be well thought out and not simply a knee jerk reaction to my origins or worse.
A good reason for the PM wanting to keep us all united has got to be to present a united appearance to the rest of the world for the sake of world trade. Remember a lack of confidence from buyers would affect Scotland as much as it would England. Both countries would have to start from square one to establish their own trading history and trust.
Ireland is a poorer place to live than over here. Living standards are lower and women are in a lot of areas still treated like we were fifty years ago, they have much less protection from the Police against domestic violence for instance. There is less work available, this makes it much less attractive to immigrants. It also has some protection against unregulated immigration by the fact that it is surrounded by water.
If Scotland opened its doors to more immigrants than England I wonder what the results would be long term?
also be good to know how many people posting on this forum and anti-independant are english. am scottish and will be voting yes
Why? The vote is for the residents of Scotland. When the vote is no are you going to blame the English? What about the Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Welsh, Irish, and all the other races and nationalities represented by the residents of Scotland?
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 10:16
Oh Ducati ! independence will only lead to them arguing with each other again. They've been waiting a while to start the Clan( Tribal ) wars again its any excuse to disagree with each other and have a fight with someone then blame it on everyone but themselves
Squidge, thank you, you have posted some very helpful information.I'm not in favour of more emigration to help support the country, I would like to see our own population trained & fittened into jobs. I'm sure I read somewhere that the metobolisim of Scottish bred folks is different to other races. Pale skin to absorb vitamin D from the sun, the need to eat high fat food because of the cold & hard work. Is it not that the availabiy of more plentiful food & good welfare system has contibuted to an overweight population in some cases. I know this is not excuse really for fillings ones face excessively but there is many contributing factors, as also mention deprevation. Just before anyone gets stuck into me, I'm not overweight, I am Scottish, yes I do work, love good food & typos don't freak me out.I don't particularly like the subject of politics the idependance vote is fast approaching & I would like to make an informed decision. :-) Vanman I'm seeing where your coming from the voice of the English in Scotland does appear to hold the no vote.
Oh Ducati ! independence will only lead to them arguing with each other again. They've been waiting a while to start the Clan( Tribal ) wars again its any excuse to disagree with each other and have a fight with someone then blame it on everyone but themselvesLol I'm getting my face painted ready......lol
Tubthumper
10-Feb-14, 13:14
Issue
UK
Scotland
Defence
Deploys Squaddies with melting boots, guns that don't work, non-protective armoured trucks etc.
Relatively small force with limited roles (Humanitarian, Peacekeeping) therefore good chance of being able to afford decent standards of kit. Has engineering expertise to design equipment for theatre/ role (i.e. NATO/ UN) and not stuck with vested interests for purchase. Unlikely to take unjustified aggressive stance thus avoiding illegal wars.
Defence
Declares war illegally and kills/ is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians
Political system & moral compass working correctly - Unlikely to get sucked into wars of dubious justification. More likely to be defending the weak and dispossessed than dropping bombs on them. Or selling bombs for others to drop on them.
Defence
Unconditionally supports the Trident Nuclear Deterrent
Doubts Trident is any deterrent against plausible threats (e.g. Al Quaeda, North Korea), in any event wants to get along with people rather than subjugate them. Also doubts true independence of deterrent. Considers obsessive need for such weapons as paranoia. Has better things to spend its money on like schools and hospitals.
Head of State
Gets a bit precious about allowing Scotland to use HM Queen on stamps
Understands need to have a head of State, and that it might as well be the one used for the last 300 years. Contribution to Royal Family running costs would probably be less than those for an elected President. rUK nationalistic arguments irrelevant due to royal family international nature - if HM Queen not possible could probably find unemployed Royal for job, as per history.
Energy
Thinks about shareholders first when developing energy policy. Considers new-build nuclear a wise choice. Still trying to find ways of getting power companies to invest in technology.
Thinks about future generations when creating energy policy. Invests in range of energy sources with emphasis on cleanliness and sustainability. Can see that nuclear power is manifestly unsafe and requires massive ongoing subsidy to build and deal with waste and clean-up. Would rather spend cash on childcare.
Oil Revenues
Squanders money on illegal wars, achieving/ maintaining high unemployment or subsidising a minimum wage pool for cheap labour, getting private enterprise to provide poor services.
Historically thrifty and careful with resources due to frequent UK maladministration. In absence of desire to bully other Nations or subjugate own proletariat, likely to invest wisely for the benefit of all.
Oil Revenues
Considers Scottish territorial oil reserves a UK asset. Will probably take great umbrage if Scotland claims geographic possession.
Understands that any negotiated separation should take fair account of all assets and liabilities. However if rUK wants to get funny about oil reserves (as funded by the companies that recover it) they can whistle for a contribution to Nuclear cleanup costs outside Scotland.
Tubthumper
10-Feb-14, 13:17
Infrastucture/ Investment
Withdraws investment where strategically required e.g. Environment Agency just as climate change becomes an issue. Pursues huge investments with minimal benefit for anyone except shareholders e.g. HS2.
Probably unable to make worse job than current or previous UK incumbents. With relatively small boundaries, can probably get investment about right for maximum benefit of population. Historically thrifty with proven ability to balance books.
Legal System
Permits police to routinely shoot unarmed/ innocent people in street or underground. Or kill harmless drunks. Legal system regularly loses prosecutions e.g.celebrity rape, large-scale fraud cases. Establishment turns blind eye to illegal activities by media until it becomes safe to turn on own 'friends'.
Centralised Police service still sorting itself out but must be better than UK offering. Citizens unlikely to be killed by Police. Sunday Post not known for celebrity bin-raking. Present Government striving to improve access to law for all, which doesn't always work, meaning rape or abuse victims may not get justice.
Education
Strives to further cause of elitism through spending money on 'Academies' while quietly supporting exclusive school & uni control of key roles.
Will probably continue to strive for fair access to decent education for all regardless of income or parental standing. Despite whining by neighbours.
International Standing
Ignores poor international reputation, dislike by neighbours, not trusted. Considered whiny and self-serving. Made a pig's ear of empire especially at end. Sucks up to big friend for protection then wonders why gets targetted. Takes robust stance against home-grown terror groups (using illegal means where required) until financial centres threatened at which point negotiated settlement becomes possible.
Reasonably good international reputation without historical baggage. Mature enough to to develop own friends. Own oil resources so unlikely to invade/ bomb other sovereign states. Individual terrorists likely to get heads kicked in if trying anything. Provided most of early US leadership, wonders what went wrong.
Immigration/ Border Control
Unable to control immigration or the free movement of drugs etc.
News reports appear to say it all. Scottish Government couldn't do any worse than UK Government is doing.
Politics
Claims previous administration to blame for failures (all parties)
Scots not born yesterday - Controlling Government unlikely to get away with blaming previous administration. Although blame for many existing problems could be fairly laid with UK Government.
Independence Campaign
No' campaign capitalises on fear of the unknown. Resorts to scoffing and name-calling. Unashamedly uses hearsay, rumour and twised data. Not ashamed to have Alistair Darling as front man.
Understands A Darling is a noted incompetent who presided over financial 'collapse' and took over 'No' role while languishing on opposition back-benches. Population would not urinate on him in the event of spontaneous human combustion. Rolls eyes at histrionics of 'No' campaign.
Tubthumper
10-Feb-14, 13:20
EU Membership
Always complaining about unfairness but unwilling/ unable to do much beyond making a noise.
Considers UK like the horrible spoilt kid in a school class, that no-one wants to play with but no-one can do anything about for fear he'll start crying again. Understands that Spanish claims re membership may be a bit biased.
NATO Membership
Considers self a big player, however is just a noisy has-been that can't get over losing its Empire.
New kid on block - will want to get along with allies while discouraging military adventures of dubious provenance. Could well be a voice of reason. Understands that possession of Nuclear deterrent is not typical for NATO members.
Banking & Finance
Presided over collapse of RBS, Barclays etc. and unwilling to hold those responsible to account.
Nationally uncomfortable with greed, ideally wanting a fair shake for all. Thinks Directors, regulators, politicians should be held to account for failings, losing all payoffs and pension in event of company collapse. Couldn't do a worse job than has been done.
Pensions
Expresses dismay at impending pensions crisis while having presided over erosion of pension funds and sentenced millions to minimum-wage hell (with no pension provision).
Nation understands dynamics of decency, dislikes greed, likely to strive for improved standards for all.
Tax
Encourages the rich to avoid paying any tax at all while pursuing the small player with vigour. Refuses to condemn or close tax havens. Defends failure to raise higer income tax rate as it will 'make businesses go elsewhere'.
May consider businesses which use minimum wage labour for massive untaxed profits as slavers and pirate and welcome to go elsewhere. Will hopefully work with other Nations to close loopholes and stop blatant abuses of tax systems.
Fiscal Probity
Incapable of getting it right. Welded to belief that Private Sector = Good. Convinced (by private sector) that 'financial services' would sustain Nation, then apprently blindsided by financial 'collapse' of massive proportions.
Has noted that despite massive collapse affecting 'everyone', UK sales of luxury cars are higher than ever. And that some people didn't have to give up their holiday homes or ponies.
Health
Hails NHS progress then initiates yet another programme of 'improvement'.
Understands such 'improvement' is probably part of campaign to make NHS look bad so as to allow private health providers access to big accounts. Knows that NHS Scotland is not perfect but appears better than other places.
Health
Reports that Scots are the fattest, drunkest, laziest, druggiest in the world
Thanks the UK for presiding over this apparent slide into despair. Notes English international reputation for hooliganism, drunkenness and drugs, also Welsh teen depression/ suicide rates and N Irish drunkenness/ riots and wonders whether data is conclusive or just imaginitively interpreted.
Health
Requires sick people to pay for prescriptions (Some areas)
Points out that in Scotland sick people receive free health care regardless of income or standing as per original NHS vision.
Sport
Invests proceeds of gambling in sport. Currently achieves some success however some National teams an embarassment (football, rugby cricket).
Currently achieves some success, however some national teams an embarassment (football, rugby). On independence may be able to provide improved local & National sports facilities. Probably won't change much as will still be a small Nation and most kids have better things to do than slog up and down a swimming pool for hours on end.
I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense. All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.
Braveheart? Marxist? Your irrationality is showing, RR......those are the Independence equivalents of Godwin's Law!
Too many people are voting from a dislike, bordering on the irrational, of Alex Salmond, as if he was going to be the immortal king of Scots running the country by divine right. I assume that voting to stay in the Union, in that case, is a vote of confidence in Cameron, Milliband, Clegg and their cohorts and approval of the enriching of the already rich, the daemonising of the poor and disabled, the privatising of the NHS, the rolling back of the welfare state in the direction of 1948, illegal or pointless wars on the coat-tails of the USA, and the funding and maintenance of a Nuclear weapon for no other real reason than that it gets the UK politicians a seat at the top table in International fora to underline their sense of their own importance.
We know what is going to happen in the UK from now until 2020....more of what we currently have re austerity, but we don't know how much devolution we will still have with a no vote..and I'm afraid the PM who said the likes of the following, ahead of and during the 2010 election......we will clean up politics; no front-line reductions; a bigger army for a safer Britain; welfare reform won't mean benefit cuts for disabled children; we will not scrap Educational Maintenance Allowance; we will cut tax credits only for families on £50,000; I wouldn't means test child benefit; our plans don't involve an increase in VAT; no cut to Pensioners Winter Fuel Allowance; no more top down reorganisation of the NHS etc, only to do exactly the opposite, doesn't fill me with any confidence at all..and NuLabour is not going to change any Tory policies, any more than they did from 1997 onwards.
The one certain thing is that Scotland wants more control of the way our money is spent......and the main uncertain thing is the control devolution gives Westminster over those aspirations. That control by Westminster was amply illustrated by the straight YES/NO referendum question, despite the fact that the majority of Scots would have preferred to have something better than the status quo, but less than complete independence...and also the removal of ROC control from Scotland. Into the bargain, Andy Burnham, the onetime NuLabour Health Secretary is on record as saying "Devolution, in its early days, was about doing something different and it needs to enter a different phase where we start talking again more about a UK-wide policy because in the end that helps everybody"....which would mean privatisation..as could also happen with Scottish Water.
It is also a fact that anything relating to Scotland which has to get through Westminster to become law rarely comes out at the end the way it entered the system..and this alone makes any "promises" by any party as to "further devolution" no more guaranteed than anything said by YES supporters or the Scottish Government. Seems to me there is much more chance of it "being all right on the night" if we have the ability to switch on or off our own lights, rather than relying on Westminster to decide how dark it is, and if we really need to be able to see.
If you haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live, would you care to offer a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term the UK will be a better place to continue to live in.......particularly given the probability that all future UK Governments will be right wing to some degree and rejected by the majority of Scots?
Oddquine you have a good way with words & a lot of sense
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 14:04
Ah yes the illegal wars and financial collapse who was in power Messr Blair, Brown I won't ask where they came from as we all know that tells you something
Ah yes the illegal wars and financial collapse who was in power Messr Blair, Brown I won't ask where they came from as we all know that tells you something
And what does where they come from matter? You surely aren't so terminally thick as to believe that Blair and Brown etc were running the UK on behalf of Scotland, are you? Sheesh! Westminster MPs run the UK for the benefit of London first and every other part of the UK a distant second.....regardless if they are Scottish MPs Welsh MPs, NI MPs English MPs....or Scots, Welsh, English etc MPs sitting for constituencies outside the land of their birth.
I can almost understand the arrogance of people, who have not been taught any better, calling Britain, GB and the UK, England as an all-encompassing blanket method of identification...but I really can't get my head round the idea that anyone with a modicum of commonsense would believe that a couple of Scottish MPs in Government means that they dictate the policies of their parties.
The fact that they are Scottish and took frankly ill-considered, if not downright stupid actions, building on Thatcher's legacy, was not because they woke up one morning and decided they had complete autonomy to do what they liked....but because a party with a predominantly English membership in the UK and a predominantly English Parliamentary party decided that that was what was going to happen......they didn't do it as Scots....they did it as NuLabour Party apparatchik Brits.
Nothing in the Westminster pro-Union mindset has changed, either among UK party Scottish MPs if you consider that Jimmy Hood, NuLabour MP for Lanark and Hamilton East, didn't turn up to vote against the bedroom tax.....and is on record as saying, in the Parliamentary debate on "Scotland's Place in the UK" “Even if the SNP was right and there was a grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for independence, I would still be against it. If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.“.....and that is from the Unionist MP for a constituency which has 25+% of its population among the most deprived in Scotland. Politicians, pigs , noses and troughs spring immediately to mind! And you are happy with MPs sitting in Westminster with that attitude? Double Sheesh!
I repeat my question If you haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live, would you care to offer a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term the UK will be a better place to continue to live in.......particularly given the probability that all future UK Governments will be right wing to some degree and rejected by the majority of Scots?
Why? The vote is for the residents of Scotland. When the vote is no are you going to blame the English? What about the Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Welsh, Irish, and all the other races and nationalities represented by the residents of Scotland?
It would indeed be a shocker if English people living in Scotland torpedoed the yes for independence vote :eek:
Interesting convo i had with my mate in Manchester just 5 mins ago. He phoned to say thanks for the parcel i sent him last week and told me the courier lad said to him "i see it's from 3rd world Jockland, sooner we get rid of that bloodsucking bunch of ****** that's bleeding this country dry, the better! I hope that when they do go independent that they need a passport to get into England and it costs them the earth to import stuff from down here that they can't be bothered to make up there". Matey was a little bemused at the couriers bold statement and wonders if that is a fair representation of what we are classed as by some of those down south?
He is himself concerned about future shipping costs and problems with his parcels and he knows full well that i can send stuff to him for roughly 1/3 of the cost of what it costs him to send stuff to me (£12 +vat my cost as opposed to £30 +vat his cost) thats why i make the pickup arrangements as its cheaper.
He also asked if i know anything about SNP policy on immigrants as his Polish neighbours are looking for a house and jobs down there for their Polish friends in Perth who claim that they have been told that they will suffer financially when/if we get independence. Who's told them that i wonder??
You present a good case Squidge :)
Vanman I too would like to know the answer to the only question you ask.
I think there are many reasons why Westminster want to keep Scotland as part of the UK. This isnt about what "the English" want - it is about what Westminster want.
So possible reasons
They love us, love Britain and feel that Britain should stay united. There is nothing wrong with this view, ITs perfectly reasonable to love the country you were born in, lived your life in and want to remain the same. Interestingly, although this seems to be a perfectly good reason for wanting to keep the union, those who suggest that they want an Independent Scotland because it is a country in its own right, because they love Scotland and believe it should be free to make its own decisions are often described with derision from the anti independence commentators as "braveheart" ( Interestingly in all the time I have been invovled in the Independence debate the only people I hear referencing Braveheart ar those supporting the Union.) However for that seems to be a perfectly acceptable reason to want to vote No or to want to "keep" Scotland as part of the UK.
Other reasons include the effect Independence may have on the rUK economy, the removal of oil from the income, the tax revenues, the whisky, the contrbution Scotland makes to the overall UK economy. Of course Westminster wants Scotland to continue to contribute - why wouldnt it. Scotland makes a greater contribution to the economy than its population share would indicate - the FT articles mentioned previously show that. The UK is better off with Scotland in it than it would be with Scotland out of it.
Other reasons are around the position of the UK on the "world Stage" does Scotland being Independent mean that the UK would have less clout? The suggestion is that Scotland benefits hugely from the UK having a seat on the UBN security council, from the UK being at the "top Table" in the G8/12/20 whatever it happens to be, the UN, NATO and the EU. I am not sure that it does. If you take the EU then with Independence Scotland would have a greater number of MEPs to represent Scotland's Interests. Scotland would negotiate on its own behalf and therefore the priorities of Scotland would be given a greater emphasis than they are now when negotiations are for the UK as a whole. There is quite a bit of information and evidence which shows that smaller countries benefit from being able to concentrate on issues that are of importance to them. The other issue around this is that the UK might lose its place in World Affairs. the seat on the Security council for example. Well, that seat was given to the UK after WW2 as recognition of the role that the UK played in that conflict. I doubt it will lose it in the way that is suggested.
The other main reason that I can find is the political landscape of the rUK. There is a suggestion that the rest of the UK will be condemned to a lifetime of Tory governments - that we would be "abandoning" the Uk to misery and that we somehow think Scotland is "special". Firstly it is fact that the votes cast in Scotland make very little difference to the overall result of a Westminster General Election. There is not one instance since the war where Scotland's votes have changed the result of the General Election. They have mitigated it a little on, I think 3 occasions. This has mean that where there was likely to be a majority government Scotland's votes have pushed it into a hung parliament. There is nothing special about wanting Independence. Independence is the normal state of affairs for normal countries and when you talk to people from other countries they think that the Union is the odd thing - they dont understand why we would want another country to tell us how to spend our money. Of course there is also the small issue of Scottish MPs and Scottish members of the House of Lords. Many of which may find themselves out of a job if there is an independent Scotland. Jim Hood MP for Lanark and Hamilton East said last week that "Even if the SNP were right and there was a grand great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for Independence, I would still be against it,If the scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I wouold still be against breaking away from the union". Draw your own conclusions.
As for Immigration - well you can agree or disagree but the fact remains that Scotland needs solutions and plans for SCOTLAND. Scotland is not Ireland, Norway, Greece, or even England - it is Scotland and the solutions to Scotland's Future should be in Scotland's hands. Its no more complicated than that.
It would indeed be a shocker if English people living in Scotland torpedoed the yes for independence vote :eek: Lol Gaz I dont think we need to worry! After Daves big speech last week Twitter was aflame with people saying go for it, Wish you luck and other such comments - it was quite amusing.
Braveheart? Marxist? Your irrationality is showing, RR......those are the Independence equivalents of Godwin's Law!
Too many people are voting from a dislike, bordering on the irrational, of Alex Salmond, as if he was going to be the immortal king of Scots running the country by divine right. I assume that voting to stay in the Union, in that case, is a vote of confidence in Cameron, Milliband, Clegg and their cohorts and approval of the enriching of the already rich, the daemonising of the poor and disabled, the privatising of the NHS, the rolling back of the welfare state in the direction of 1948, illegal or pointless wars on the coat-tails of the USA, and the funding and maintenance of a Nuclear weapon for no other real reason than that it gets the UK politicians a seat at the top table in International fora to underline their sense of their own importance.
Yeah I want all that.
As for Immigration - well you can agree or disagree but the fact remains that Scotland needs solutions and plans for SCOTLAND. Scotland is not Ireland, Norway, Greece, or even England - it is Scotland and the solutions to Scotland's Future should be in Scotland's hands. Its no more complicated than that.
A poll mentioned on the News today suggested that Most Scots would object to more immigration.
Big surprise there hey?
A poll mentioned on the News today suggested that Most Scots would object to more immigration.
Big surprise there hey?
Yes you are right it is a poll out today - a YouGov poll comparing the view on immigration between people in England and Wales and those in Scotland but the results are a much more complex than you suggest
Here are the results for you to look for yourself
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5vbhf8v5ik/YG-Archive-131127-Migration-Observatory-EngWales-Scot.pdf
And here is some analysis.
So - 54% of people in England and Wales think immigration is one of the top three issues facing the country, compared to just 22% of Scots.
Drilling into the detail, there’s a dramatic difference in attitudes towards immigrants according to their profession. On both sides of the border, people are keen to have MORE immigration of what we might term middle-class workers (eg scientists and researchers), but want far fewer working-class immigrants (labourers, restaurant staff).
Poor people clearly feel far more threatened than the well-off by foreigners competing for their jobs, but Scots consistently remain less opposed across all categories. (Most notably when it comes to immediate families of existing legal immigrants. Scots are almost exactly evenly divided on whether we should let more or fewer people come to join their spouses/parents/children, with a net rating of just -1, whereas almost twice as many in England and Wales are opposed to reuniting families as are in favour.)
But then things get a little odd. When asked what they mean when they talk of immigration, Scots by a margin of +12 say they’re thinking of legal rather than illegal immigrants. In England and Wales, however, the situation is exactly reversed, with the figure at -12. Yet when asked which they’d like to see addressed, the two groups’ responses are almost identical (45% in England and Wales wanting illegal immigrants to be the main focus of reductions, 42% in Scotland).
So we were already pretty confused by the time we got to the matter of jurisdiction. Because despite apparently being firmly in favour of a reduction in immigration, a whopping 60% of Scots wanted the matter controlled by the Scottish Goverment – which currently favours INCREASED immigration – against just half as many (31%) who wanted the anti-immigration UK government to handle the issue.
Once again, the only explanation we can offer for this contradiction is that Scotland has almost no home-based media. Bombarded daily with anti-immigration propaganda by newspapers owned and run in England, Scots reflexively answer that they want less of it. Yet when asked to think about the subject in detail, they reject English attitudes and want a Scottish Government which actively seeks to welcome migrants to have control of Scotland’s borders.
Not for the first time, then, Scots give out conflicting messages depending how you ask the question. We already know that in the more general sense, if you ask them if they want independence they say no but if you ask them if they want a Scottish Parliament to make all decisions about Scotland ( which is surely independence ?) they say yes. Today’s poll is only the latest in a long series of examples that show a Scotland radically out of sync with the rest of the UK and longing to run its own affairs, just so long as it doesn’t have to actually give that desire a name.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-perils-of-polling/#more-49635
All this burble of Scotland gaining independence from England is a load of nonsense.
It might be of interest (but I doubt it) to some thicko's, but ENGLAND is NOT an Independent country, i.e. There's no possible way England could become an independent member of the United Nations. England is an internal division of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
So twats taking about being under the English heel and other Nationalist drivel are just being (as usual) puerile.
Bottom line; The Nationalist intention is to destroy the United Kingdom, and when it's done they expect that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be benevolent towards them.
WHAT! a country that has destroyed the Union? Are they thick or something?
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 18:48
Well said Beks
Tubthumper
10-Feb-14, 18:53
All this burble of Scotland gaining independence from England is a load of nonsense. It might be of interest (but I doubt it) to some thicko's, but ENGLAND is NOT an Independent country, i.e. There's no possible way England could become an independent member of the United Nations. England is an internal division of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So twats taking about being under the English heel and other Nationalist drivel are just being (as usual) puerile. Bottom line; The Nationalist intention is to destroy the United Kingdom, and when it's done they expect that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be benevolent towards [B]WHAT! a country that has destroyed the Union? Are they thick or something? Did anyone mention independence from England on here? I didn't notice it. You sound panicky beks - what's up?
Thats a positive and polite contribution to the debate Beks!. Have you seen any post on here talking about Scotland being "under the English Heel?" I havent.
It may be that you have been away so long you havent moved on from the ridiculous and discredited assertion made in February 2013 that Scotland Ceased to exist in 1707. This was quickly put to bed because if Scotland ceased to exist in 1707 then an Independent Scotland would be seen in international law as a completely new country entitled to none of the assets of the existing Uk but also none of the debts.
Seems like the No crowd backed away from that point of view pretty quickly.
Do keep up chuck lol;)
Come on tubs; me panicky? nah - just feel sorry for their unbelievable naivety.
Seems the HEALTH of Scotland (according to Squidge-why-say-a-few-words-when-a-hundred-will-do) is entirely the fault of that dammed Westminster.
'spose this is the UK's fault too:
a)The rape conviction rate in Scotland stands at a dismal 3.7% – one of the lowest in the Western world
b)Scotland had the highest murder rate of any of the four UK nations, as well as the highest violent crime rate.
c)Scotland has the 2nd highest murder rate in Europe, and has been labelled the most violent country in the developed world (all types of violence)
I dont say it is the fault of westminster - in 100 words or in two.
I say that it is what it is but that the only chance we have of doing anything to resolve it is through being in control of how we spend and collect our money. There is no impetus from Westminster to improve the lot of those people struggling at the bottom of the heap.
You know it seems a bit odd that people complain if they think that those of us who support Independence BLAME Westminster for the ills of society and yet dont seem to think it makes sense to take control of it and sort it out ourselves. How many times do we see "stop whining - stand on your own two feet and stop complaining that you get a raw deal" and yet people - the same people complain that we are thick, stupid and childish to want to take that control and determine our own future.
Come on tubs; me panicky? nah - just feel sorry for their unbelievable naivety.
Seems the HEALTH of Scotland (according to Squidge-why-say-a-few-words-when-a-hundred-will-do) is entirely the fault of that dammed Westminster.
'spose this is the UK's fault too:
a)The rape conviction rate in Scotland stands at a dismal 3.7% – one of the lowest in the Western world
b)Scotland had the highest murder rate of any of the four UK nations, as well as the highest violent crime rate.
c)Scotland has the 2nd highest murder rate in Europe, and has been labelled the most violent country in the developed world (all types of violence)
Sorry but i need to see the links where you got those figures.
According to your statement there were at least 553 murders in Scotland last year?
There were 552 murders in England & Wales last year says the website:-
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/murders-fatal-violence-uk.html
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 20:48
This might be what's he's talking about Gaz. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/433651/Scotland-still-top-of-British-murder-rates-despite-record-fall-in-violent-deaths
Yes you are right it is a poll out today - a YouGov poll comparing the view on immigration between people in England and Wales and those in Scotland but the results are a much more complex than you suggest
Here are the results for you to look for yourself
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5vbhf8v5ik/YG-Archive-131127-Migration-Observatory-EngWales-Scot.pdf
And here is some analysis.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-perils-of-polling/#more-49635
Yes the analysis isn't. It is spin.
RagnarRocks
10-Feb-14, 21:37
It also is very dependent on where you get your poll stats from I've rarely seen a poll that is representative of the vast majority of people. They are usually produced by govt depts or institutions trying to sway opinion one way or the other.
Yes the analysis isn't. It is spin.Well the actual results are there Ducati, you can look at them and draw your own conclusions. You can see the plain results, no analysis, no spin just the results.
Or more to the point, ANYONE here can look at them and draw their own conclusions and. I would urge people to do exactly that.
This might be what's he's talking about Gaz. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/433651/Scotland-still-top-of-British-murder-rates-despite-record-fall-in-violent-deaths
gah, that rag! i wouldn't line my cat litter tray with it......and i don't have a cat!
Besides, that article is nowhere near what Bekisman is claiming. It is a figure per 100,000 of population and thus Scotland with around 6mil, is 10% of what the rest of the country is so by my reckoning if there is 600 murders in England/Wales and N.Ireland and just 61 in Scotland, that puts us top for murders per 100,000 population. These polls are so bad and most of them just pluck imaginary figures out the air and use other invented figures to justify the imaginary ones.
still no answer as to why the english are so desperate to keep hold of scotland. i will give you my reason, scotland pump to much money into the uk and its the english who will need bailing out in 5 or so years when not if scotland become independent.
still no answer as to why the english are so desperate to keep hold of scotland. i will give you my reason, scotland pump to much money into the uk and its the english who will need bailing out in 5 or so years when not if scotland become independent.
Wishful thinking? What have you got against the English?
RagnarRocks
11-Feb-14, 10:41
Wishful thinking? What have you got against the English?Probably doesn't really know just a convenient bunch to be angry at for something they may have done at some stage somewhere, possibly, maybe but it serves a purpose as its easier to be angry at others than yourself :0))
nothing against the english. it fact scots give more money per head to the uk than england, and like i said why so desperate to keep hold of scotland. most of uk oil in scottish waters, english boats fish scottish waters. on that alone how much is the better together westminster gov taking from scotland and what do we get from them very little.
Southern-Gal
11-Feb-14, 19:13
nothing against the english. it fact scots give more money per head to the uk than england, and like i said why so desperate to keep hold of scotland. most of uk oil in scottish waters, english boats fish scottish waters. on that alone how much is the better together westminster gov taking from scotland and what do we get from them very little.
So in your mind an Englishman living in Scotland paying his taxes and contributing to the system is better than an Englishman in England paying into the system?
And if this is so then encouraging more English (and other nationalities) should be top of your agenda?
haha when scotland gains independence not if, then we wont need to encourage they will come, can you tell me why we are better together because no one this on the forum seems to know.
haha when scotland gains independence not if, then we wont need to encourage they will come, can you tell me why we are better together because no one this on the forum seems to know.
I don't think we are "better together". At every opportunity, Dave and his hoods are kicking the Scots where it hurts, in the pocket!
ie.
Ravenscraig "not so British Steel"
Govan Shipyards
Linwood Chrysler
Bathgate BMC
Polkemmet Pit
Fishing policies
Longannet Pit
Carron Iron Works
Motorola Bathgate
Alexander Dennis
And the list goes on and on and on!
What happened to the "Silicon Glen"? gone without a trace due to the companies moving abroad. No thanks to the govt for not trying to keep them here either!
Scotland = ruined by the govt & EU policies
Granted some of the industries were not competitive but how can a government allow foreign companies to take raw resources from Scotland, ship them half way round the world, process them and then send them back to be sold cheaper than what it costs to make them in Scotland then have the damned audacity to tax us on global warming when these foreign industries are the no.1 contributor to global warming caused by the processes they use!
Coffee time grrr
I don't think we are "better together". At every opportunity, Dave and his hoods are kicking the Scots where it hurts, in the pocket!
ie.
Ravenscraig "not so British Steel"
Govan Shipyards
Linwood Chrysler
Bathgate BMC
Polkemmet Pit
Fishing policies
Longannet Pit
Carron Iron Works
Motorola Bathgate
Alexander Dennis
And the list goes on and on and on!
What happened to the "Silicon Glen"? gone without a trace due to the companies moving abroad. No thanks to the govt for not trying to keep them here either!
Scotland = ruined by the govt & EU policies
Granted some of the industries were not competitive but how can a government allow foreign companies to take raw resources from Scotland, ship them half way round the world, process them and then send them back to be sold cheaper than what it costs to make them in Scotland then have the damned audacity to tax us on global warming when these foreign industries are the no.1 contributor to global warming caused by the processes they use!
Coffee time grrr
I can't deal with all that my eyes are watering too much. Silicon Glen I'll have a go at. At its early stages the price for a single wafer was £90. 5 years or so later it was 90p. It was not possible to manufacture and make a profit anywhere the wages were anything like reasonable so it had to go. But you blame Westminster it will make you feel better.
I can't deal with all that my eyes are watering too much. Silicon Glen I'll have a go at. At its early stages the price for a single wafer was £90. 5 years or so later it was 90p. It was not possible to manufacture and make a profit anywhere the wages were anything like reasonable so it had to go. But you blame Westminster it will make you feel better.
lol, i had to get you crying somehow. Of late you have been showing yourself as cruel and heartless [lol]
Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....
David Cameron is prime minister of The United Kingdom, not England.
The United Kingdom was formed when James VI of Scotland became James 1 of England and Ireland.
This is a basic fact and yet most people seem to have a problem with getting it correct.
There also seems to be a lack of comprehension as to how the ballot box works, it is a 1st past the post in a general election and this will always mean wide variations in results dependent of what part of these islands one lives in and which can result in people feeling very estranged but that is down to the system and not central government.
I am still dithering about the forthcoming vote but such a lack of understanding tends to make me reflect very seriously on the matter.
my question which nobody has answered yet is why does david cameron want us to stay together. westminster needs scotland but does scotland need westminster. in one word no scotland does not need westminster.
lol, i had to get you crying somehow. Of late you have been showing yourself as cruel and heartless [lol]
Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....
OK Alexander Dennis, They have gone out of business about 4 times. Bloody incompetent! They make buses and coaches that other companies buy...from the Dutch...who's wages are higher. I definately don't want my tax £s bailing out that shower. Do you?
Although I do seem to remember there was some kind of attempt at bailing them out in the past. (they also refused my offer of help with Management and Leadership training).
my question which nobody has answered yet is why does david cameron want us to stay together. westminster needs scotland but does scotland need westminster. in one word no scotland does not need westminster.. I did try on Page 6!
Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....
And I suppose the Goven Shipyards...frankly, I have lost track of how often they were bailed out/sold/bought/taken over for peanuts by Norwegion companies that still couldn't turn a profit. You don't think Westminster had a wee wordie regarding the latest reprieve?
One thing is for sure though, very shortly after a yes vote they will be as dead as a Surrey badger.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 09:25
Well just watching sky news and they state the Chancellor is going to set his stall out as NO Currency union so that shoots Eck in the foot I wonder what plan B is....oh they don't have a plan B
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 09:47
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26147783
Whoops; no currency union!
so will say Chancellor George, and Ed Balls AND Danny Alexander.
I'm waiting for the whinging, shouts of Bullies, toys out of pram.
Alex Salmond branded the UK Government "incompetent Lord Snooties"
So what DID the pratt expect?
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 10:09
Whoops; no currency union!
so will say leader of Chancellor George, and Ed Balls AND Danny Alexander.
I'm waiting for the whinging, shouts of Bullies, toys out of pram.
Alex Salmond branded the UK Government "incompetent Lord Snooties"
So what DID the pratt expect?
They've already done the bully,intimidation bit on BBC radio this morning.
Nicola Sturgeon said the position did not bear scrutiny and was a campaign manoeuvre in a bid to "bully Scotland".
Why is it they assume everything is up for grabs and when they are told NO its scaremongering, bullying and intimidation.
An Independent Scotland controlled by the Scottish National Party would be the equivalent to a dog having rabies.
An Independent Scotland controlled by the Scottish National Party would be the equivalent to a dog having rabies.
Who says that the SNP will control an independent Scotland? That's up to the population to decide, not Salmond or the SNP. Eck will have a year or two grace but unless he is a magician and works wonders, there won't be a place for him in the future as a first minister
Well just watching sky news and they state the Chancellor is going to set his stall out as NO Currency union so that shoots Eck in the foot I wonder what plan B is....oh they don't have a plan B
Yes there is...we'll use Sterling until such time as it doesn't suit us! Get with the programme, RR! That has always been plan B.
We'll be in a better position even with no currency union with all the tools of fiscal policy than we are now inside the UK Union with no say and no fiscal tools.
http://www.cmonscotland.org/#!Currency/c112t/C1626DDC-F8BF-40C4-98AE-26D348F165F3
Who says that the SNP will control an independent Scotland? That's up to the population to decide, not Salmond or the SNP. Eck will have a year or two grace but unless he is a magician and works wonders, there won't be a place for him in the future as a first ministerOkay lets look at the situation, in the yes corner we have the SNP, in the no corner is nearly every other political party in Scotland. (please note the word nearly). A vote for independence is a vote for the SNP, if Alex Salmond pulls off the independence fiasco, the other political parties will take years to recover from their no campaign and Mr Salmond knows this. Currently we do not have a democratic parliament in Scotland for that matter we don't have a democratic parliament in the UK. What we do have is a totalitarian government dressed up as democracy. In an independent Scotland that situation would get worse. The current independent mechanism is doomed to fail to the cost of every Scottish man, woman and child.
A vote for independence is a vote for the SNP, if Alex Salmond pulls off the independence fiasco, the other political parties will take years to recover from their no campaign....
A vote for independence is just that, a vote for independence....
You can't blame Alex Salmond for the ineptitude of other parties, though I'm sure that they are not daft enough to have no contingency plans in the event of a YES win.
A vote for independence is just that, a vote for independence....
You can't blame Alex Salmond for the ineptitude of other parties, though I'm sure that they are not daft enough to have no contingency plans in the event of a YES win.
They may well be..look at the head in the sand attitude of the Westminster MPs....50+ of whom are Scottish politicians.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 20:00
I think Westminster has been pretty clear on the currency today, its so rare that all three parties agree as to not be worth talking about but there you have it No Currency Union. That's the first of Mr Salmomds negotiations failed. What else can we expect should independence occur No automatic entry into Europe that's on the cards already. So then all the subsidies that come from Europe for the farmers etc go out the window. Its all very well saying everything is up for negotiation but that is only the case if the other side agrees.As for using the pound then borrowing off the international money markets, can you imagine the interest rates charged for a newly independent country without a currency or credit rating that will be charged that threatens or default when it doesn't get its own way.I'm afraid all the assurances of the SNP about what will happen are starting to Unravel
What a load of fuss. Scotland can use the pound without the currency union. Just like jersey does. Or we can have our own new currency. I prefer a new Scottish currency but above all i care how we choose out priorities. It does amuse me how people here who complain about those who believe what the Scottish Government says and yet swallow this stuff hook line and sinker. This is just the next stage of the campaign. After all, this is the Government for whom yesterday Vince Cable spoke on behalf of when he said that RBS would inevitably move its headquarters to London. Today, however, the Chief Executive at RBS not only said that RBS could work within an Independent Scotland he also said that he'd had NO DISCUSSIONS, NO CONVERSATION with Vince Cable about this subject at all. Its all kidology!
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 20:47
Unless I'm very much mistaken the Government are the largest shareholder in RBS and its now owned by the country so its Chief Executive would pretty much have to do as he is told no ifs no buts no maybes. Are you sure youre not getting confused with Barclays who made a statement that they could work in Scotland. Jersey is a tax haven so has huge currency reserves and a very healthy track record for a credit history. So how do either of these effect a newly independent country with no central bank and no currency and no credit rating. It means you have to search hard to find lenders who are prepared to lend you money and then pay the rates they charge. Its not kidology its finance that's the way the markets work. You can prefer all you like but ideology is one thing hard reality is another and financiers aren't renowned for being wonderful ideologists.
No Rags I am not getting confused. Barclays ALSO said they would adapt to an Independent Scotland. This is what Ross mcEwan (chief exec RBS) actually said "We've been in Scotland for nearly 300 years. So I need to take this independence issue very seriously. We've also been operating in the rest of the UK for nearly hundreds of years and have a royal charter. It's really important that the Scottish people get the opportunity to vote, and then if I need to adapt my business to serve England, Scotland, Wales and both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, then I will.Mr Cable and I have not talked about moving our head office. "It was im an online discussion for The Guardian.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 21:29
So he's totally ignoring the fact that he may be chief exec but the majority shareholder is The country via the government which still means he does as he's told at the end of the day. Its ok to keep quoting the people who don't make the decisions or shifting the goal posts but as I said Mr Salmonds assurances about negotiation are unravelling and as for the white paper its starting to look like a day dreamers charter based on nothing more than delusions of grandeur
liked the snp response to westminsters bullying tactics recarding the pound if scotland cant use the pound then we dont need to take the uk debts. westminster bullies better come up with something better.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 22:00
liked the snp response to westminsters bullying tactics recarding the pound if scotland cant use the pound then we dont need to take the uk debts. westminster bullies better come up with something better.That'll go down well with the international money markets watch the money lenders get the collywobbles with such a cavalier attitude taking their fair share of debt . Also since when has using a countries currency had anything to do with the debts run up by both countries the two issues are separate, seems the SNP are acting like the bullies when they don't get their own way. I wonder if that attitude will work when they try negotiate with Europe.
Currency is one of the top ten concerns of the voters. This bombshell has killed it as far as I'm concerned. Up untill now I didn't think a yes vote very likely but thought I could put up with it. With all the business I do with English Insurance companies banks and the like, it just will not be possible from a truly foreign country.:(
Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.
On a lighter note and with a chuckle it appears that until last night Ladbrokes were offering odds of 50/1 on Scotland NOT using the £ after imdependance. They then suspended the betting due to the news about the currency union. The odds came back on this afternoon and they are now offering odds of 1/3 that on the 1st Jan 2017 Scotland will be using the £.
Oooh the political shenanigans lol
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 22:08
Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.So he didn't deny it maybe he's more of an astute politician than I give him credit for. All will become clear tomorrow
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 22:10
You can see the headlines.
Scotland defaults on Debt
followed by
Scotland astounded by Europe's Entry Refusal
As the United Kingdom vetos entry
Southern-Gal
12-Feb-14, 22:40
Just for fun :)
Saw this on facebook and thought some of the Yes Men would appreciate it :Razz
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l269/dona_10/floodmap_zps938cf2b7.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/dona_10/media/floodmap_zps938cf2b7.jpg.html)
More flooding down south - no need for the independence vote now
Tubthumper
12-Feb-14, 22:40
Let's say the majority vote Yes. At that point it will dawn on those who voted No that, due to majority will, they will soon be in an independent country. Will they (and I include Mr Alexander as he's a kind of Jock) still be campaigning for no monetary union then? I think not.
What will you be saying RR? Campaigning against it during the negotiations will be a bit 'cut nose off to spite face' I would think, no?
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 23:10
Nope alas I will just be living in a country with a basket case economy that won't have its own currency won't be allowed into Europe and will have sailed into a sea of independence that the financial world will be scared to touch. Won't be able to sell up because values of properties will plummet. And the worse part is when it all goes wrong then the infighting will begin.
Tubthumper
12-Feb-14, 23:13
Always look on the bright side, eh? So from the point of view of a typical no voter, the world will come to an end on independence and they won't lift a finger to help. Wonderful.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 23:15
No my life will carry on much the same as it does now. Just as seen on this thread there are many nationalist who insist its " our " country so once they have independence what do they do then ? It usually starts with various rules for Scottish Born V Non Scottish or such like and descends, unfortunately nationalism is not a very healthy trait as its never satisfied.
RagnarRocks
12-Feb-14, 23:29
And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism
Why the EU was formed
The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EU’s work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.
Well it didnt even last the day! Apparently the chancellor is not going to argue for or against a currency union tomorrow according to the BBC. I think Henry Macleish says a couple of interesting things. But Labour's former Scottish First Minister Henry McLeish criticised the intervention by the three pro-union parties, and said Scots "shouldn't be fooled" by the suggestion that a currency union could not be worked out.He told BBC Scotland: "This is entirely political and of course consistent with the unionist campaign. This is negative, it is about spreading fears and scare stories."What we require from the unionist parties is a bit of statesmanship and quite frankly their behaviour so far falls well short of that."Wonder if anyone actually changed their mind on the basis of this non story.... Poll anyone?
And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism
Why the EU was formed
The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EU’s work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.
Luck o' the Irish to you too RR [lol]
http://www.eumatters.ie/why-was-the-eu-founded-.html
Bobinovich
13-Feb-14, 00:47
And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism
Why the EU was formed
The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EU’s work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.
Ah, if only they'd kept it as a simple free trade market instead of trying to run the lives of everyone involved, then it's likely that a lot of the current day issues with the EU would never have materialised :/
here ragnarrocks you are what we scots call a slever, like westminster your full of bullshit. westminster needs scotland and as for defaulting on debts it will be westminster that defaults when they dont have scotlands money thats why there running scared. in one word without scotland westminster is fxxked
here ragnarrocks you are what we scots call a slever, like westminster your full of bullshit. westminster needs scotland and as for defaulting on debts it will be westminster that defaults when they dont have scotlands money thats why there running scared. in one word without scotland westminster is fxxked
I think all the stramash about currency union proves that England doesn't need Scotland. If they bricked up the border and forgot about us it would hardly inconvenience them at all. Scotland without trade with the rest of the UK would be up shute creek.
How about a list of all the stuff England can only buy from Scotland? I'll start
Whisky....oh it's mostly owned by Diageo and Rickard Pernod so they can buy it from their European wharehouses.
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 09:53
This so far is the SNPs negotiation
Give us the pound or we will default on debt
Let us into Europe or we won't let you fish in the North Sea
This is Vanmans lets call everyone names who disagrees with me.
Yup and you wonder why I don't think Nationalism is a good idea.
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 10:01
I think all the stramash about currency union proves that England doesn't need Scotland. If they bricked up the border and forgot about us it would hardly inconvenience them at all. Scotland without trade with the rest of the UK would be up shute creek.How about a list of all the stuff England can only buy from Scotland? I'll startWhisky....oh it's mostly owned by Diageo and Rickard Pernod so they can buy it from their European wharehouses.
Let us not forget to make the whiskey most of the Barley comes from south of the Border :0))
And as for Vanmans comments sure a population of 5 million hold so much economic sway over a population of 60 million that they need them.
Scotland's income tax receipts 10 billion Scotland's Pension Provisions 6 billion
Today's word is Delusional
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/scots-independence-uk-veto-currency-union-005138469.html
Well, there you go folks. So what was plan B again?
I am saddened by the divide that has already been created. Whether or not Scotland becomes independent the demon has been released from its box. I think every Scottish voter should have had a vote to see if we wanted the question of independance to be asked. If the population wanted a vote on independance then the Scottish government could have gone ahead with preparations of a referendum.
Just watched Nicola Sturgeon on Sky (sigh)
Well, we have Salmond, and it's been said on here, rather irreverently 'the fishy pair' but after listening to Sturgeon I'd add flounder"
It's also been said on here; "Scotland can use the pound without the currency union... Or we can have our own new currency. I prefer a new Scottish currency" Oh dear, wish this - so very obviously NOT fiscal policy experienced - person had read the Scottish Government findings by a FANTASTIC panel of experts* in, where 'Following a detailed analysis of the various options, the Working Group came up with NOT the above suggestion'
So wot's Plan B?
I expect Salmond was in a slever over his assertion Scotland would keep the £, bet he's a wee bit 'Feart' now though.
I was correct in that name calling would arise after my earlier post, goodness me chaps, what on earth does this look like on the world stage? tut tut. Basically SNP want Scotland to be independent from the UK. OK, then go, they can't cherry pick the best parts, independence means
INDEPENDENCE
not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for existence, operation, etc.
not relying on another or others for aid or support.
I'm sure that the more cosmopolitan of you will know what this refers too, but patience also ran out.
Depart, I say; and let us have done with you.
In the name of God, go!
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00419554.pdf (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00419554.pdf)
I think this article says it all about Osborne's speech
""Political debate will take place on the issue of a currency union. Technical discussions will continue. A continuation of sterling in its present area, which would be a benefit for all parts of the UK, is surely the most logical option. Politics may cloud that view as the referendum approaches."
Sir James Mirrlees is professor emeritus of political economy at the University of Cambridge and professor at large at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. He won a Nobel Prize for economics in 1996."
Here is the full article http://www.scotsman.com/news/analysis-benefiting-the-uk-is-most-logical-option-1-3304617
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 13:17
I think the chancellors speech was quite clear and it was today . Leave the Union no currency union and it wasn't up for debate. To quote an article written prior to his statement is quite delusional it shows how unrealistic most people's grasp on fiscal union actually is. Why won't the YES campaign accept it when its told NO. A similar argument is made about Europe and how Scotland is part of Europe now and therefor has a right to stay in Europe. The reality Scotland is currently part of the United Kingdom which is the signatory for Europe therefor if you vote to leave the United Kingdom you've effectively left Europe and will have to then reapply for membership. Which means an instant loss of all subsidies no Euro. These are bullying or threatening actions they are just the realities of Independence. So the First Minister saying if you don't let us into Europe we won't let you fish in the North Sea isn't a good start to negotiations .
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 14:00
Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.On a lighter note and with a chuckle it appears that until last night Ladbrokes were offering odds of 50/1 on Scotland NOT using the £ after imdependance. They then suspended the betting due to the news about the currency union. The odds came back on this afternoon and they are now offering odds of 1/3 that on the 1st Jan 2017 Scotland will be using the £. Oooh the political shenanigans lolYou might want to read Danny Alexander's website for clarification on his position I believe it is a resounding NO for currency union
http://www.dannyalexander.org.uk/news_detail.asp?newsID=381
You might want to read Danny Alexander's website for clarification on his position I believe it is a resounding NO for currency union
http://www.dannyalexander.org.uk/news_detail.asp?newsID=381
The spin merchants keep saying it will leave the currency open to risks but i have yet to see just one of the so-called risks on a 100% honest and truthful, plain view, in-your-face sheet of paper!
If Scotland having the pound as a currency is going to be a risk at the end of the year then why isn't it a risk NOW?
Why aren't the markets dumping Sterling now just in case it does happen?
Why isn't the pound dropping in value now?
Irrespective of whether the independence move goes ahead, the current fighting over Sterling would surely be enough to have people switching their Sterling holdings now to a much safer currency?
I've seen other currencies fall for less reasons than this petty squabbling over a currency union. The Italian currency is dropping just because they can't make up their minds about who to elect, Speculation on other countries currency has dumped many currencies into a deep bog and the list goes on.
Something isn't quite right here and it just might bring Sterling to its knees......or is that the master plan???
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 15:13
All three major parties have said no to currency union including the man from the teasury.
Point 1.currently Scotland isnt an indepedent country so cant do as it wishes on taxation etc. so no risk for now.
2. The £ is a relatively strong currency at the moment and London is a big finance centre
3. The Goverment has given assurances it will cover the bill should Scotland default
4. The Problem isn't Sterling its the SNPs assurances a currency union will happen.
What you should be asking is this..If No sterling then what and what are the ramifications for Independent Scotland for Mortgages, Pensions, Benefits, Pay.
Would Scotland still be part of Europe if not what about all the subsidies
Would Scotland still be part of the United Nations and have a seat at the table
Would Scotland still be part of the commonwealth and have access to the trading block
Would Scotland still be part of NATO and shelter under its protection which has served us well since its formation
All the assumptions made by the SNP are based on the fact that currently Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and therefor entry to all those organisations is a done deal
The reality is once you vote to leave the United Kingdom you become an Independent Country and have to reapply for entry into every single one of them.
The argument that its all bullying is all well and good but the reality is, its just part of becoming independant the harsh realities of Indepenence and all that comes with it, whether that be good bad or indifferent.
I think the problem is Voters are being sold Indepenence lite by the SNP vote for it and don't worry nothing will really change, reality is just about everything changes.
Even down to border checkpoints if an Independent Scotland decided to have an immigration policy that varied too much from the United Kingdom.
Think of it like this if you moved to France you wouldn't expect to pay in Sterling and have Uk law applied you'd accept its an independent country and abide by its rules.
In this case you are not only voting to have an Independent Scotland you are also voting to leave to United Kingdom at the same time.
Different countries different rules and expecting the United Kingdom to be all benevolent whilst you vote to dismantle the Union is somewhat politically naive.
so say independence goes ahead and the govt will honour any bills should Scotland default? Where is this money going to come from then because it sure won't be coming from Scotland and as we all know, England are now down a minimum 10% in their income. That in itself will surely cause problems?
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 15:26
It would cause a problem for the United Kingdom but it would be a greater problem for a newly independent Scotland that's just defaulted on its debts and has to go from day one to the money markets to borrow money. The rates you'd encountering would be punitive to say the least. no credit rating, no currency of its own ,no central bank and huge bills to pay.
question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the union
question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the unionWhy not? We are better together.
Just going back to the original question does anyone care what the rest of the UK think? According to BBC Scotland it is one of the top ten concerns.
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 17:01
question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the union
Westminster isn't threatening Scotland with anything.
Westminster is simply stating the point that as an independent sovereign country it has no desire to share a currency union with another independent country.
That's not a threat its just what is seen as best for the United Kingdom....
Say you where married and shared all your money for bills then got divorced would you still think it fair to let your ex decide how you spent your money and what decisions you could make with it .... I doubt you would. That's a somewhat Simple analogy but sort of fits .
Now Vanman answer me this .
If you want Independence why on earth would you want the United Kingdom deciding what you can spend and borrow and tax surely you'd want your own currency and autonomy or are you just scared of the realities of what true independence means.
i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple
Mrs Bradey
13-Feb-14, 18:58
i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simplehave you heard of the barnet formula? Scotland receives 4% more per head from Westminster than the rest of the UK!
I am saddened by the divide that has already been created. Whether or not Scotland becomes independent the demon has been released from its box. I think every Scottish voter should have had a vote to see if we wanted the question of independance to be asked. If the population wanted a vote on independance then the Scottish government could have gone ahead with preparations of a referendum.
Nah.... Maybe a vote to see if we wanted a vote to see if we wanted the question of independence to be asked.
i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simpleHow much does the UK earn from Scottish Whisky? I assume you are referring to the duty, if so 90% of Scotch goes for export, and is therefore duty free, so nothing goes into the Treasury
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 19:57
i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple
That's not an answer to the question,its an excuse for wanting to retain sterling,after independence you wouldn't be paying anything to westminster.
So in clear English
Why is it you do not want a new currency for an Independent Scotland ?
Another analysis of todays events. Things are not as clear cut as some folks think.
http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/currency-reflections-legal-issues
RagnarRocks
13-Feb-14, 23:40
Another analysis of todays events. Things are not as clear cut as some folks think.http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/blog/currency-reflections-legal-issuesFunny how these articles are popping up from around Holyrood. The currency debate has been had Mr Salmond has now been told there is no negotiation on currency. The weak argument of Scotland doesn't own any part of the a national debt is as weak as his position on entry into Europe. If you don't let us straight in we won't let you fish in the North Sea. He has all the credibility of a mafia extortionist.
Bobinovich
13-Feb-14, 23:57
Say you where married and shared all your money for bills then got divorced would you still think it fair to let your ex decide how you spent your money and what decisions you could make with it .... I doubt you would. That's a somewhat Simple analogy but sort of fits.
Actually I find it a reasonable analogy in that the starting point in most divorce negotiations is an even split, and the general direction from there is divide sensibly to leave both sides worse off than they would be together, but still capable of financial security independently, i.e. neither disadvantaged to the point of destitution.
Tubthumper
14-Feb-14, 00:06
Bob, Osbourne's waffle today reflects the meanness of spirit we've learned to expect from our near neighbour. If they can't have it their way they'd rather see us destitute. It's a trait I've noticed a lot in middle england (you know, the wet bit), even in those who've moved from Scotland to down there.
It is not possible for him or his muppets to state what is and isn't up for negotiation at this point.
The more I see of these fools the more I desire to get away from them. I sense that Mr Alexander might be slightly embarrassed at his latest stance. That's OK, he sold out long ago.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 00:25
Bob, Osbourne's waffle today reflects the meanness of spirit we've learned to expect from our near neighbour. If they can't have it their way they'd rather see us destitute. It's a trait I've noticed a lot in middle england (you know, the wet bit), even in those who've moved from Scotland to down there. It is not possible for him or his muppets to state what is and isn't up for negotiation at this point. The more I see of these fools the more I desire to get away from them. I sense that Mr Alexander might be slightly embarrassed at his latest stance. That's OK, he sold out long ago.
By the way UKIP also say No to currency union.
Its not meanness of spirit to tell an independent country they can't expect another independent country to exert influence on their own currency underwrite their banks its normal financial sense.
The United Kingdom hasn't said its not prepared to negotiate on other issues what it has said is the currency is not up for negotiation.
Ask yourself this question say you have a currency union and the rest of the UK is doing particularly well inflation is up, interest rates are up, public borrowing is down. But newly independent Scotland isn't fairing so well, would you really want to be tied to a currency where you can't borrow more, your inflation is soaring,interest rates up up around 10% or more you can't tax more to raise money . Would you really want to inflict that on Scotland, its very easy to look at the financial situation as it is now but look at what the consequences could be, then consider is it really in Scotland's best interests.
Yet the SNP still insist its in our best interest to link ourselves to a currency which we have no control over. I just think the SNP haven't a clue what to do now,they have no credible plan B.
I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.
By the way UKIP also say No to currency union.
Its not meanness of spirit to tell an independent country they can't expect another independent country to exert influence on their own currency underwrite their banks its normal financial sense.
The United Kingdom hasn't said its not prepared to negotiate on other issues what it has said is the currency is not up for negotiation.
Ask yourself this question say you have a currency union and the rest of the UK is doing particularly well inflation is up, interest rates are up, public borrowing is down. But newly independent Scotland isn't fairing so well, would you really want to be tied to a currency where you can't borrow more, your inflation is soaring,interest rates up up around 10% or more you can't tax more to raise money . Would you really want to inflict that on Scotland, its very easy to look at the financial situation as it is now but look at what the consequences could be, then consider is it really in Scotland's best interests.
Yet the SNP still insist its in our best interest to link ourselves to a currency which we have no control over. I just think the SNP haven't a clue what to do now,they have no credible plan B.
Guess that's UKIP just lost about 1 million voters....
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 08:45
I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.You making fruity offers. Nods as good as a wink to a blind donkey :0)
Back to the pound. Listening to A.S. on the news this morning, I don't think I have ever seen someone with their head so deeply buried in the sand.
I have to think he knew about this anouncment well in advance and has done nothing. So I have to ask, how many other issues is he ignoring and hoping they will go away?
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 09:47
Back to the pound. Listening to A.S. on the news this morning, I don't think I have ever seen someone with their head so deeply buried in the sand.I have to think he knew about this anouncment well in advance and has done nothing. So I have to ask, how many other issues is he ignoring and hoping they will go away?
Well lets see..
Europe and quick entry into it ...not a done deal by any means..
United Nations. ..ditto
The Commonwealth...
NATO ....
The realities are he is a chancer pushing for Independence,producing a white paper with no detail .
I've no issue with Scotland being Independent if the questions have sensible answers but when everything is left with the answer, it will be negotiated after the fact it becomes a farce. The SNP are tugging on the emotional heart strings of Scots but sailing them up the river by not answering difficult questions honestly and in detail.
I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.Interesting point, I thought this is why allowing 16year olds to vote as they are very easily influenced
Mrs Bradey
14-Feb-14, 10:38
That's not an answer to the question,its an excuse for wanting to retain sterling,after independence you wouldn't be paying anything to westminster. So in clear English Why is it you do not want a new currency for an Independent Scotland ?many in Scotland ( and the rest of the UK ) trade in the black market for cash, sometimes having hundreds of thousands of pounds stirling hidden from the taxman! maybe there is a stash of cash at vanman hq that would need to be explained!
I'm finding it quite funny all this nonsense about the pound. It's really quite pathetic that this no brainer is being played out as a surprise and becoming quite devisive. The language being used is at retard level, and many are reducing themselves to this level.
There was never going to be a currency union whilst the (r)UK govt doesn't want Scotland to be independant, this was clear to anyone, and why would any nation agree to one with one that has just split?
Now, it's a union that has been declined, Scotland can use whatever currency it wants. Idiot Lords on TV last night suggesting it would have to revert to using Bitcoin is the level of fecktardiness we're at.
Mr Salmond whilst he thinks he's playing a cute political game, and Gideon & Co are playing into his hands, is looking more and more like an idiot on the world stage. It is cheapening (pun intrended) the entire referendum debate and is becoming a smoke screen from the bigger issues that need addressed. And that is the worrying part.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 11:02
I think you'll find he wasn't being serious when he said Bitcoins merely making a point
That Stasi loon was trying to create even more pointless fear with some clever use of language. That man has seriously gone down in my opinion, a cretinous muppet spouting rubbish.
It has become more than clear that the UK government PLC no longer cares for it's people. I would like to see how the Scottish people would fare any better under a Scottish government. What if any constitutional arrangements would be put in place to protect the people of Scotland against lets say corrupt politicians?
Sadly, whoever or whatever you vote for, that is what you will get.
Why do you think the SNP are so keen to get into bed with the EU, an immense hotbed of corruption. So much so they cover up the report they commissioned into corruption!
Corrupt polititions your having a laugh ain't you? There all corrupt in my opinion
just as a point of interest did the uk not let ireland and other former colonies of the british empire share the pound, and did we not just bail out the bank of ireland a foreign country, but a few years ago,
and can anyone explain why non of the former colonies ever wanted back into being governed from westminster, and there were lots of them, they cant all be wrong can they ?
for the british nationalists and the scottish nationalists on the forum, opinions welcome.
just as a point of interest did the uk not let ireland and other former colonies of the british empire share the pound, and did we not just bail out the bank of ireland a foreign country, but a few years ago,
and can anyone explain why non of the former colonies ever wanted back into being governed from westminster, and there were lots of them, they cant all be wrong can they ?
for the british nationalists and the scottish nationalists on the forum, opinions welcome.
Most of the colonies were part of an empire gained through subjugation and slavery. Why would they want back in?
An adventure that the Scots were enthusiastic participents in.
There are still many British dependencies around the world that presumably have the option to go. But they don't.
Mrs Bradey
14-Feb-14, 18:31
Most of the colonies were part of an empire gained through subjugation and slavery. Why would they want back in?An adventure that the Scots were enthusiastic participents in.There are still many British dependencies around the world that presumably have the option to go. But they don't.gibralter and the falklands to name but two!
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 18:44
I think you'll find that the British Empire was dissolved for the main part as part of the lease lend agreement WWII what we now have in its place is the commonwealth.
The Irish Banks where bailed out as it was seen to be in the interest of the United Kingdom due to the amount of trade with have with Eire.
Although what either of these subjects has to do with independence I'm not sure.
People keep making the big issue about Westminster being hundreds of miles away so I wonder how they think larger countries manage I.E Australia, Canada, USA, India, Russia, China, Germany, France to name but a few.
And as many have noted the Independence debate is fuelled by one political party whilst it may be a close run referendum which won't be decided until after the day we still have maybe a million people dictating the future of a large percentage of the Scottish population who have no desire to cede from the Union. This also includes the unprecedented decision to lower the voting age.
thanks ducati,
but im thinking more of countries like canada ,australia ,newzealand ,south africa, ireland , why did they all want to leave, is it a case of your not a real country unless you control your own future and finances ?
they are or were all british after all, i have lots of family in canada and australia and they say the scots would be fools not to grab independence while we can, no matter the consequences, these countries have flourished even if it was a bit of a slog to begin with,
anyway my point on the irish still stands why did we bail out a foreign bank and why did the irish use sterling until recent times, bearing in mind they had to use violence and not the ballot box to gain their independence.
ohh and it was not just the scots who were enthusiastic participents in empire building for the english aristocracy, you could say the same for the irish the welsh the german merceneries etc etc etc and any other nationality that has had a hand in forming and maintaining the british empire for cash or land grants.
It has become more than clear that the UK government PLC no longer cares for it's people. I would like to see how the Scottish people would fare any better under a Scottish government. What if any constitutional arrangements would be put in place to protect the people of Scotland against lets say corrupt politicians?
There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens, I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also. Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then!
I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency. When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology.
Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option. Lets watch this space!
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 18:57
At that time there where also the French, Spanish,Germans,Russians, Italians all expanding their spheres of influence it just happens that the British Empire was a bit more successful it also included Noble Born Scots and Welsh not just English. Many men of humble beginnings made large fortunes through the Empire.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 19:07
There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens, I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also. Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then! I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency. When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology. Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option. Lets watch this space!
The problem with written constitutions is they may be great when they are written with the passage of time they become problematic. Look at the USA with the right to bear arms.
A legal system that evolves to suit the people it serves is generally considered much preferential.
The United Kingdoms legal system is globally considered one of the fairest in the world. Its not perfect but it does serve the people from the problems that have seen many of our close neighbours suffer.
We could talk about Germany and the Third Reich. Vichy France. Italy and Mussolini. Spain and Franco. Russia and China with the oppression of the communist era.
Compared to many countries our parliament has generally been fairly benevolent to its people. It didn't even suffer the McCarthyism and segregation of the USA.
The primary function of the foundation of the EU was to stop nationalism rising in Europe again due to the problems it creates.
Why would Scotland need it written into a constitution to stop it re-entering the Uk if its people wish it surely if people can have a referendum to leave they can have one to re-enter. There we have a very simple attempt to stop the future democratic choices the people of Scotland may wish to make.
Notably the SNP haven't mentioned any of the other currency options in their white paper I wouldn't consider that competent behaviour for a politician. Yet more smoke and mirrors from the SNP.
Currently all citizen of the United Kingdom enjoy the protection of the Human Rights bill a newly independent Scotland would neither be a member of Europe nor of the United Nations so in this case you'd have no rights unless the new government gives them to you.
ohh it seems that ragnar rocks answered my irish question, thanks ragnar,
The Irish Banks where bailed out as it was seen to be in the interest of the United Kingdom due to the amount of trade wee have with Eire.
it wasnt seen to be, it was the case,
bearing that in mind you could say the same for scotland ,could you not, seeing as we are a bigger trading partner than the irish free state.
only one question left then , why were all these former colonies now great countries allowed to use sterling until they launched their own currencies,
or is this sterling question just an anti scottish thing ?. bearing in mind we have been using it for as long as everyone else in the UK
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 19:26
I think you'll find each of those countries used sterling many years ago and under different circumstances, this is a modern financial system we are talking about in the case of a currency union it would mean Scotland ceding powers to the United Kingdom such as interest rates, taxation it would also require the Bank of England to act as lender of last resort to Scotland in case of financial problems. These are the issue that make it unfavourable for the rest of the United Kingdom it may be better for Scotland but not for rUK. I could be wrong but I think Eire is a very large trading partner larger than Scotland so its always what's in the best interests of the country. And the final answer is I don't think you'd find anyone would be allowed a currency union where it to happen now. The Welsh First Minister has already stated he wouldn't be happy about it. The consideration in this is not necessarily what keeps a newly independent Scotland happy population 2 million ish bit what keeps rUK happy population 63 million ish. Westminster has to safe guard its electorate not the electorate of a country that has left the Union.
well that sounds very fair and reasonable ragnor rocks,
i personnaly dont want a currency union, im all for our own currency, but as i thought as a highland scot, the UK would have given us a few years grace to use sterling until we could get our own currency off the ground,
bearing in mind what scots and our resources have contributed to the UK over the years , but it seems not, it is very bitter of them in IMHO, and im afraid you will see lots of dont knows turning into yes votes,
my own family who were split 50/50 in the household are now all yes voters, thats an extra 4 votes for independence overnight, we scots dont like being bullied especially by a bunch of elitist toffs who seem to run our country now,
a minority group i may add, what ever happened to the working classes in parliament.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 20:00
If you're a Scotsman you may consider it unfair but what you have to remember is your vote is not only a vote for independence it is also a vote to leave the Union. Scotland has indeed contributed much to the Union hence the Unions desire for it to stay a part of it. But Independence is what it says Independent of another country, the burden should be on Scotland to stand on its own two feet should it desire independence. Not to hang on to the finances of the United Kingdom. Its a bit like getting divorced and still expecting nookie afterward with no strings, nice idea but not very realistic :0))
You're right Rags..
THE First Minister of Wales has warned that the principality would try to block attempts to create a currency union between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK. Labour's Carwyn Jones claimed in a speech to Edinburgh University that the SNP's plan to share the pound and Bank of England within a common sterling zone would put Welsh taxpayers at risk. Mr Jones insisted that trade and currency lay at the heart of the "positive case" for the Union. He issued a stark warning for his opposite number at Holyrood, Alex Salmond, saying: "If one part of the currency union decides to leave, then that is a matter for them. But if an independent nation wants to join, then that is a matter for the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and England - and as the First Minister of Wales, I would want the right to have a say"
NB. English, Welsh and Northern Irish would need to approve Scottish currency union, Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour leader, said she could not imagine taxpayers in the remainder of the UK signing up to a currency union that would see them become liable for bailing out a separate Scotland’s banks.
She questioned how any UK Government could persuade people south of the Border to “do us a favour” immediately after Scots had voted to end the Union. Willie Rennie, her Liberal Democrat counterpart, warned that the English, Welsh and Northern Irish “may just lock the door from the other side” after Scotland had departed the UK.
Some call the English 'Elitist toffs', good god man; grow up!. Ed Balls 'Elitist?' you're aving a laugh! Seems to me it's the Nats stirring up anti-English rhetoric - and unfortunately a lot are swallowing it. But not it seems the majority of voters up here in Scotland. PLEASE don't tar everyone with the same brush.
It's gratifying to note that this anti-Scots does not show itself in England to such a degree.
Comparison of Scottish born people living elsewhere in the UK with people living in Scotland but born elsewhere in the UK
People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948 People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
Anyway when's Paxman going to maul Alex again?
You are right rags i didnt make myself clear. I understand that the plan for a constitution is considering including something which would prevent Scotland being returned to the UK immediately without a referendum. Its also going to be open to public involvement. Iceland have done this with quite a few problems it has to be said and yet switzerland engage with their electorate at every level - interesting times
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 20:28
You are right rags i didnt make myself clear. I understand that the plan for a constitution is considering including something which would prevent Scotland being returned to the UK immediately without a referendum. Its also going to be open to public involvement. Iceland have done this with quite a few problems it has to be said and yet switzerland engage with their electorate at every level - interesting timesHave you been to Switzerland hell they have referendums on everything but it doesn't change much. Constitutions are inherently rigid and inflexible articles of there time they always run into problems as time and people's opinions change, societies evolve, constitutions don't and there within lies the problem.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 20:36
well that sounds very fair and reasonable ragnor rocks,i personnaly dont want a currency union, im all for our own currency, but as i thought as a highland scot, the UK would have given us a few years grace to use sterling until we could get our own currency off the ground, bearing in mind what scots and our resources have contributed to the UK over the years , but it seems not, it is very bitter of them in IMHO, and im afraid you will see lots of dont knows turning into yes votes,my own family who were split 50/50 in the household are now all yes voters, thats an extra 4 votes for independence overnight, we scots dont like being bullied especially by a bunch of elitist toffs who seem to run our country now,a minority group i may add, what ever happened to the working classes in parliament.You see I find your rhetoric interesting. A currency Union was never a guarantee infact it was only offered as a Negotiation by the SNP but it would seem your family consider a sovereign nation saying prior to the referendum that currency is not a negotiable article an act of Bullying. The reality is the SNP wrote its white paper and floated the idea obviously without consulting the Treasury, The Bank of England, The Chancellor, any of the other First Ministers nor the 63 million voters who are not residing in Scotland and now has the mendacity to accuse everyone else of bullying. If I told everyone you where going to let me use your bank account would you consider yourself a bully for saying No or would I be for assuming its ok prior to telling everyone about it.Many MPs in parliament aren't elitist toffs as you call them, but for once they all put aside their own political differences and did what they consider best for rUK . I'd say the bullying is coming from the SNP not from Westminster.
who is calling the english elitist toffs im talking about the tory party and the cabinet in particular, you people do love putting words in peoples mouths,
and who is edd balls,? sounds like a retired pornstar, lol. anyway i will leave you till it , its nice to be degenerated for asking a few questions.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 21:12
who is calling the english elitist toffs im talking about the tory party and the cabinet in particular, you people do love putting words in peoples mouths,and who is edd balls,? sounds like a retired pornstar, lol. anyway i will leave you till it , its nice to be degenerated for asking a few questions.No one denigrated you no one put words in your mouth. Parliament as a whole runs the country one party happens to be in charge but everything in the case of currency the conservatives, labour, lib-dems and UKIP all spoke as one voice which is more than can be said for Scotland where the SNP is speaking on behalf of no one else they are the only party insisting on currency union the only party for Independence. So in ruk we have cross party consensus 4 Parties speaking as one. in Scotland we have the SNP alone.
thanks for the reply ragnor, without taking the pee,
my heart says vote yes, but my brain is undecided, i aint really interested in party politics, it stifles democracy ,but i do no strathy very well, maybe i will give beks a wee drop in for tea, see if she is such a smart arse in person, seeing as everyone knows the white settlers up that way, i am more of an actions person than a words person, thanks for your time, food for thought for sure, got a dinner date with ere indoors, the one that must be loved, lol,
take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles;).
take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles;).
Yes, I will hate Nationalists till the day I die for trying to frack up my future.
Southern-Gal
14-Feb-14, 22:50
If the vote is yes will the Scottish banks that were recently bailed out and kept afloat by the British pound hand it back?
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 23:00
Those banks are majority share owned by the government at the moment. So I would think they would be a key area of negotiation in light of the threat by the SNP to default on debt. No Currency and Banks owned by rUK Ltd could put the SNP on a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to negotiations on what they will and won't do.
A written constitution to stop political corruption! That'll have 'em quaking in their boots. To try and peddle that as some blarney excuse that Scotland will become some utopian state is twisted beyond belief.
RagnarRocks
14-Feb-14, 23:28
thanks for the reply ragnor, without taking the pee,my heart says vote yes, but my brain is undecided, i aint really interested in party politics, it stifles democracy ,but i do no strathy very well, maybe i will give beks a wee drop in for tea, see if she is such a smart arse in person, seeing as everyone knows the white settlers up that way, i am more of an actions person than a words person, thanks for your time, food for thought for sure, got a dinner date with ere indoors, the one that must be loved, lol,take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles;).
In view of your comment about disliking party politics may I ask what you'd prefer to have in its place ? Dictatorship under the auspice of a one party state.
A little more food for thought, at the moment pro union politicians are being quite forthright and open as to the possibilities for an independent Scotland the pros and cons. You heard the Chancellor the other day give quite a thorough explanation as to why currency union wasn't on the table can you honestly say the SNP have provided you with such an in depth explanation of how it should work, what the alternatives are, what happens if they don't get the currency union, what the effect on your wages, living costs will be or have the answered it in three words Bluff bluster bullying !
I don't profess to be Scottish or Pro independence but I do believe in honesty and integrity and doing a job well. As far as I can see when each non thought through process Mr Salmond puts on the table is dismantled he calls it bullying that may appeal to the Heart of Scotsman but it doesn't answer what will happen to his money, family life and way of living if Mr Salmond isn't being forthright and honest.
At the very least the SNP should be able to stand up to the public in Scotland and answer tough questions on the economy instead of resorting to name calling and bluster.
If no currency union what is plan B.
If we hit a financial crisis what will that mean in real terms.
If we don't get into Europe what is the alternative.
Its no good saying give me a vote and I will negotiate after the fact its too late then you've cut the umbilical cord the babies been born.
There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens, I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also. Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then!
I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency. When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology.
Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option. Lets watch this space!Oh that's nice squidge, could we please have it in the constitution to have the right to bear arms, so we can defend our children when the policy enforcement officers come round to take them away, because the state appointed responsible person who each child will have, is saying that we are bad to them. By the way Nicola Sturgeon & Co couldn't lie straight in their beds.
Those banks are majority share owned by the government at the moment. So I would think they would be a key area of negotiation in light of the threat by the SNP to default on debt. No Currency and Banks owned by rUK Ltd could put the SNP on a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to negotiations on what they will and won't do.
Explain your reasoning, pretty please!
RagnarRocks
15-Feb-14, 01:09
Explain your reasoning, pretty please!Ok quite easy at the moment we have a No to currency union which puts the SNP in the position of not having a credible Plan B for a newly independent Scotland's currency but they have threatened not to accept their fair share of the National debt. Then we have the government as a majority shareholder in RBS so banks are a major factor in the day to day financial running of any economy. If ruk maintains its position of no currency union and retains a majority share in Scotland's largest Bank due to the SNP refusing to bear their fair share of debt it places much more of a newly independent Scotland's economy at the mercy of Ruks government. Its ok saying we can use the pound but if you have no control over your currency or banks it places you in a tricky position when it comes to negotiation. A government without a currency or an Independent banking system could hardly be said to be in control of its Economy. I've heard Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeons constant assurances that everything will be ok and the its all bluff bluster and bullying but a vital part of independence for the average man in the street is Money if the SNP fails to put forward credible plans for a currency or a banking system then that's two quite large factors which should worry the average man/woman in the street. All the political rhetoric in the world is wonderful but without the real nuts and bolts its just meaningless talk. A country may be able to Toodle along without its own currency but without some control over banks its all meaningless. So far all I've heard is name calling from the SNP but no alternatives or in depth analysis.In my view its just another part of the SNPs plans that seem to be unravelling and now they are appealing to the more base aspects of Independence with raw nationalism.
Dictatorship under the auspice of a one party state
dear me RR you peeps on this site like to put words in other peeps mouths, how did you come too that conclusion anyway, lol,your not fresh from the ussr or romania are you, you seem very paranoid,
sterling is a doomed currency anyway , you can kiss your pension and your currency bye bye within the next 10 years anyway, britain is bankrupt, not that any westminster politician will tell you that, but thats what 60 years of failed governments gets you,
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pensions/pensions-in-the-national-accounts/uk-national-accounts-supplementary-table-on-pensions--2010-/index.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-12/uks-most-disturbing-number-total-unfunded-pension-obligations-321-gdp
we are 5 trillion in debt run up by successive uk governments.who should have dealt with this problem 30 or 40 years ago
your man mr cameron wasnt joking when he was saying broken britain, its beyond broken,and he knows it.
we as a small country just want out , small countries with lots of resources and talented people do very well in western europe just look at denmark, norway, sweden, belgium,holland,switzeland etc etc,even ireland has a better standard of living than we do,no foodbanks there, britain is not a world power,we lost ww2, get over it, the empire is dead, christ we cant even arm our troops properly, yes there is lots of money here, 4th richest in the world they say, only because the super wealthy can fiddle the tax system legally,and remove there wealth at the drop of a hat,the bottom line is, do people in scotland with our wealth of talent and resources wish to fund london and the south east anymore or is it time too look after our families and loved ones,
and as others have mentioned on this thread why is the uk so keen to keep a bunch of scots spongers in the union, maybe you should go and find out how much tax the uk government makes off fuel duty, ie the tax they put on petrol and diesel once it is refined by the oil companies,and sold on as new product, and the taxes on the petro chem industry make, very hard figures too find even on the tinterweb, you can easily find what the uk government charges oil companies for extracting the stuff per barrel,
there is still a trillion pounds worth of the stuff in the north sea and thats a mild estimate, and thats just of what we know of, i work in this industry and it makes me laugh when i see the bull that comes out of westminster, yes they make a 12 or 16 billion a year taxing the oil companies for what they extract but no mention of when said companies refine the stuff and it sell own to joe blogs as a new product ready for another range of taxes,
open your eyes folks we are one of the most richest countries in the world, with such a small populace, time to decide very soon , the scots or the south east of england, and london ,stark choice but sums it up nicely.
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