View Full Version : local and national identity
Kimberley_Masson
19-Feb-07, 01:26
Just read the thread about Jamie Stone - it led to comments about pride in Scottish identity and about ‘not feeling British’. So, what’s the verdict on our own MSP’s branding the SNP ‘xenophobic’? Also, since he is talking nationalism whilst specifically representing Caithness, Sutherland, and Easter Ross: how do you feel about national identity, and about Caithness’ relationship to the rest of Scotland? Has Jamie Stone’s comment brought up thoughts of local and nationality identity for anyone on here?
First of all, I have to think of what Scottish National identity is and what it consists of.
The Scottish have all the whisky, tartan, highland games, haggis, etc trappings, but that is what they are, mere identity trinkets.
There is also the Saltire and the adoption of patron saint Andrew and the red lion banner. This is more at the heart of what Scottish national identity is all about and it all stems from the Robert Bruce times. It was national identity purely for the sake of it, inorder to make Scots seem more pious than the English. It is a mere PR job for the pope's benefit to recognise Scotland as a modern nation rather than a celtic one.
Scottish national identity is all about creating an image that is distinct from Englishness. It is not an identity that has evolved independently but one that has been super-imposed as a direct result of the mentality of 'We are here and you are not going to kill us off!".
The fact that Britishness has maintained the Scottish identity, effectively means that national identity is not threatened by continuance in the Union. Ironically, independence may do more harm to national identity than Union.
Valerie Campbell
19-Feb-07, 16:28
I see myself as Scottish, just as much as a Welsh man will see himself as Welsh, and an Irish man, Irish. I am as distinct from my English neighbour as he is to me. Yet to be Scottish, or Welsh or English, that would mean wholly Scottish, Welsh or English ancestry, and that is not the case for me. My great great grandparents were Irish. Somewhere I have French blood. So I am Scottish with a dash of Irish and French, making me European! Who can say he is truly 100 per cent one nationality? As for locale, my children have Caithness ancestry. Their great great grandfather was born in Caithness in the 1850s and it is also rumoured they have Nordic ancestry. So what nationality are they?
cliffhbuber
19-Feb-07, 17:44
To define cultural identity is worthy as an exercise in belonging, but the exercise itself can be dizzying.
Is a true Scot descended of Scotti? Or just for Highlanders?
Is one with Pict ancestry a true Scot? Or just for the Lowlanders?
How does one define the Norse (and Viking) admixture?
The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 attempted to gain worldly (European) recognition of a nation of different, if not distinct, identity for social and political purposes. In the Declaration, reference was made to the original Scots as having come from Scythia (Asia Minor) via Ireland.
To all earthly cousins of universal DNA, pass the Heinz 57. We are one human tribe in the larger picture, but still deserve appreciation and attention for our local tribal indentity.
The exercise can be both pleasing and rewarding.
I see myself as Scottish, just as much as a Welsh man will see himself as Welsh, and an Irish man, Irish. I am as distinct from my English neighbour as he is to me. Yet to be Scottish, or Welsh or English, that would mean wholly Scottish, Welsh or English ancestry, and that is not the case for me. My great great grandparents were Irish. Somewhere I have French blood. So I am Scottish with a dash of Irish and French, making me European! Who can say he is truly 100 per cent one nationality? As for locale, my children have Caithness ancestry. Their great great grandfather was born in Caithness in the 1850s and it is also rumoured they have Nordic ancestry. So what nationality are they?
Good question!
Unless someone believes they have 100% Scottish ancestry, were born in Scotland and now live in Scotland, they'll be choosing which of these factors takes precedence, although it may sometimes just feel obvious.
My ancestry so far as I know is 100% Scottish, as far back as I've got, all my ancestors born in Scotland - but I was born in England. However, I've spent most of my life in Scotland and I'd never think being born in England made me English.
My children, all born, brought up and still living in Scotland, see themselves as Scottish, although their father was born in England, as were his parents. One generation back though -his parents were English/Scottish and English/Irish.
If my kids had been brought up in England, despite a Scottish birthplace and a Scottish mother, would they have seen themselves as English I wonder? :confused
One's national identity should be what is stated on your passport.
One's national identity should be what is stated on your passport.
I don't really have a sense of "Britishness" though.
I did when I first had a passport....long time ago.
But now...I don't know what's changed, must just be me :confused
One's national identity should be what is stated on your passport.
One's legal national identity is just that for the purposes of overseas travel, I suppose.
But my national identity is Scottish..............my state identity is British. They are not mutually exclusive, but the first is the more important to me.
And in my opinion, Scottish identity is more one of place than of ethnicity and culture.......we are after all as much a mongrel race as any other in the British Isles.
I think you can feel and think of yourself as Scottish just by living here long enough........without necessarily being Scots born of Scots born parents.
percy toboggan
19-Feb-07, 19:29
It's interesting that in a recent poll, over fifty per cent of English people regarded themselves as English, before British. There are several reasons for this growing trend. First, devolved government for Wales and Scotland has caused a kind of resentment within many English minds. In addition, there is a degree of distance displayed to groups who call themselves 'British Muslims' or 'British Asians' Many English people regard these groups as uncomfortable bedfellows now it is clear that the a large proportion of the younger elements within the former have no real desire to integrate.
A growing rump of the English seem determined to assert themselves. One possible consequence of this will be a name change of the 'British National Party' to the 'English National Party' within the next few years. Many of the problems the BNP adopts as planks in it's platform simply do not exist in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. Although each have seen a rise in immigration there is not the pressure on public services which the south-east of England in particular is experiencing.
I regret the ascendance of a more narrow expression of national identity. Being born in the British Isles make me British. I'd be happy to so remain. However, with the Scots going Scottish and the Welsh going Welsh there is only one natural way for the English to go.
This can still be acheived under the British 'umbrella' but if small minded bickering continues then a break up of the union is inevitable. We shall all be the losers. Old ties die hard though. The worst is yet to come. Before the century is out Scottish , English and Welsh may will be shoulder to shoulder in yet another struggle against a common enemy.
cliffhbuber
19-Feb-07, 19:53
For my own interest and learning curve, as shallow as it may be, what is the view of those in Caithness (and Scotland) of the Olde Tyme Irish?
Are they viewed as kissing ethnic cousins, or ignored in the Scot identity question?
Is there an affiinity with the 'Green Gaels' based on historical suffering?
Is there a sense of community with the Scot/Irish in Eire or Northern Ireland and the Scots in the Highlands?
North Rhins
19-Feb-07, 20:02
To take pride in one’s country, one’s heritage and one’s identity, in this day and age, is discouraged. It’s not PC. Pride has become a dirty word.
Rheghed
Quote ‘The Scottish have all the whisky, tartan, highland games, haggis, etc trappings, but that is what they are, mere identity trinkets.’ Not a very flattering view of one’s own country. In fact I would not expect any Scot to describe their country thus. They are almost the words that a disinterested, uniformed foreigner would use.
Qoute There is also the Saltire and the adoption of patron saint Andrew and the red lion banner. This is more at the heart of what Scottish national identity is all about and it all stems from the Robert Bruce times. Not quite correct, the first recorded use of the Saltire, albeit in a religious sense, was a seal of St. Andrews, in 1180, that is over a hundred years before Robert the Bruce came to the fore. The earliest mention of St. Andrew is AD832. That is nearly five hundred years before Bruce.
Quote Scottish national identity is all about creating an image that is distinct from Englishness. It is not an identity that has evolved independently but one that has been super-imposed as a direct result of the mentality of 'We are here and you are not going to kill us off!". I cannot see any logic in this reply. This superimposed identity you speak of, what identity has it been superimposed onto, an English one? As for the statement ’we are here and you are not going to kill us off,’ is perfectly true and was Scotland’s byword for hundreds of years. In fact I would go as far as to say that it was in part due to England’s continued belligerence towards the Scots which helped form their own particular identity.
Quote The fact that Britishness has maintained the Scottish identity, effectively means that national identity is not threatened by continuance in the Union. Ironically, independence may do more harm to national identity than Union. From this reply are you maintaining that Scotland’s identity trinkets will be safe should the union continue? If all that Scotland amounts to is whisky, tartan, highland games, haggis, etc, then why are you worried about the possibility of independence? As to independence doing more harm to Scottish identity, what would your views be on Eire gaining independence from Britain? Has their identity suffered as a result, or are the leprechaun/shamrock/St. Patrick’s Day trinkets safe?
Quote One's national identity should be what is stated on your passport. A bit of a sweeping statement. What if you do not have a passport, after all it’s not mandatory? So assuming that you do not have a passport, what nationality are you?
My son was born in a military hospital in Malta. He was 11 months old when he left, he has never been back, he does not speak Maltese. He does however play the pipes, he wears the kilt in the tartan of his father’s name and his wife is Scots, so what nationality is he?
It's interesting that in a recent poll, over fifty per cent of English people regarded themselves as English, before British. There are several reasons for this growing trend. First, devolved government for Wales and Scotland has caused a kind of resentment within many English minds. In addition, there is a degree of distance displayed to groups who call themselves 'British Muslims' or 'British Asians' Many English people regard these groups as uncomfortable bedfellows now it is clear that the a large proportion of the younger elements within the former have no real desire to integrate.
And maybe the very fact that in England, you have "British" Asians and "British" Muslims, as opposed to "English" ones......while the Muslims and Asians in Scotland tend to call themselves "Scottish" Asians or "Scottish" Muslims goes to illustrate that you don't need to be of Scottish parentage to think of yourself as Scottish.
I regret the ascendance of a more narrow expression of national identity. Being born in the British Isles make me British. I'd be happy to so remain. However, with the Scots going Scottish and the Welsh going Welsh there is only one natural way for the English to go.
This can still be acheived under the British 'umbrella' but if small minded bickering continues then a break up of the union is inevitable. We shall all be the losers. Old ties die hard though. The worst is yet to come. Before the century is out Scottish , English and Welsh may will be shoulder to shoulder in yet another struggle against a common enemy.
What narrow expression of national identity, PT?
British is our state identity..........Great Britain/UK is a state which occupies part of the British Isles.............not a nation.........it is made up of four countries each of which has their own nationality.
Some of us might be happy to subjugate our birth nationality to the made-up British/UK one.....but some of us aren't.............that's choice........and life!
I'm going to ignore the "common enemy" theme, because this thread isn't about that!
I've seen a map in the museum in Inverness of Scotland. It is split into regions along tribal lines. I am sure large swathes of Invernesshire and Aberdeenshire were labelled as 'British' and Pentland was labelled 'Pict' and Norse. The borders was labelled 'Saxon' and the west coast was labelled Gaelic and Norse. Multi-cultural to be sure, what a mongrel!
Can you explain how those Scots who now live in the British zone should not consider themselves British before Scottish??:D
By the way, the region where I'm from was called Rheghed which stretched from today's Wales to central Scotland.
There is no real point to this post except that I think it is a pointless exercise to think of oneself as Scottish before British or even vica versa tbh. Though I would imagine peeps would be concerned if British Asians consider themselves members of an Islamic nation of Britain before British or even mere Pakistani.
I understand the need for an identity and to be proud of it, but being very vocal about it on a message board seems to be very provocative to say the least...it just seems to be not very nice at all. Just my 2p.
percy toboggan
19-Feb-07, 22:22
Oddquine says: Britain is a 'state' but 'not a nation'? I'm not sure about that. Britain sits at the United Nations as a 'nation' state. Do you think an independent Scotland would have a place on the security council? Maybe you don't care.
As for the 'common enemy' there will probably be several in the decades to come. Not least the Russian bear economy and the powerhouse dragon that is China. Not all enemies want to kill you. There are other ways of being totally dominated which are almost as bad.
It will be easier to dominate England if it stands alone without it's near neighbours. Those neighbours will be brushed aside as mere irrelevancies without a British identity. Don't expect much help from the Franco-German club that is the European Union either. Any great rise in English nationalism could lead to an English withdrawal which might leave Scotland exposed on the extreme periphery of Europe. Easily forgotten and a bit of a nuisance to the Euro-mainland clique.
Let's stick together.Surely it makes sense.
As for Scotish parentage I sometimes wish I had it. Then realising it doesn't really matter because I'm able to call anywhere on this island my home, should I so choose.
Oddquine says: Britain is a 'state' but 'not a nation'? I'm not sure about that. Britain sits at the United Nations as a 'nation' state. Do you think an independent Scotland would have a place on the security council? Maybe you don't care.
No, I don't particularly care about a seat on the Security Council..........happy enough to be a member of the UN as an independent country.
Britain sits as a nation state because that's what it says it is..............but it is only a nation state if all the members of the state agree it is!
As for the 'common enemy' there will probably be several in the decades to come. Not least the Russian bear economy and the powerhouse dragon that is China. Not all enemies want to kill you. There are other ways of being totally dominated which are almost as bad.
It will be easier to dominate England if it stands alone without it's near neighbours. Those neighbours will be brushed aside as mere irrelevancies without a British identity. Don't expect much help from the Franco-German club that is the European Union either. Any great rise in English nationalism could lead to an English withdrawal which might leave Scotland exposed on the extreme periphery of Europe. Easily forgotten and a bit of a nuisance to the Euro-mainland clique.
Let's stick together.Surely it makes sense.
But a country is a country................the only way anyone could dominate England would be through war.............and in the case of a war, Scotland would undoubtedly stand with England.................unless it was us doing the invading, of course!
If you mean dominating by letting foreigners take over our industries is something that is already happening, and the Union hasn't stopped that at all.........more chance of that out of the Union in fact.
I personally have no problem with being on the extreme periphery of Europe as an independent country......I'd as soon my country was a nuisance to the Euro-mainland clique as to the country which was meant to be in a Union with her.
As for Scotish parentage I sometimes wish I had it. Then realising it doesn't really matter because I'm able to call anywhere on this island my home, should I so choose.
And you could do that even if Scotland got independence, PT............just as the Irish can in the UK now........and without being "British".
North Rhins
20-Feb-07, 00:08
Rheghead, you seem to have had a change of heart since yesterday and I’m glad. You now see the need for an identity and to be proud of it. As for fellow orgers being vocal about the subject and it being provocative, I hadn’t really noticed any banging of the Nationalistic drum, that is of course unless I’m missing something.
I think your inclusion of the words Asian, Islamic and Pakistani is provocative. The inclusion of these topics is merely a smoke screen which seems to be used more and more these days when someone is running out of ideas.
With regard to the map in Inverness, just how far back do you want to go? As for Scotland being mongrel in its ethnic mix, well there’s a surprise. Name me one nation that isn’t?
The region you are from was called Rheged. That hasn’t existed for over 1200 years so what do you see yourself as being now? Welsh, English, Lancastrian, Cumbrian, Northumbrian? You might even be Scots as there is a suggestion that the Kingdom of Rheged could have stretched as far as Galloway. Don’t be afraid of being vocal, be proud of your heritage, whatever it may be.
But a country is a country................the only way anyone could dominate England would be through war.............and in the case of a war, Scotland would undoubtedly stand with England.................unless it was us doing the invading, of course!
Traditionally Scotland is France's ally, probably the longest alliance between two countries in history starting in 1295 and ending in 1903 when France revoked the treaty, up to then Scots had French citizenship.
I've seen a map in the museum in Inverness of Scotland. It is split into regions along tribal lines. I am sure large swathes of Invernesshire and Aberdeenshire were labelled as 'British' and Pentland was labelled 'Pict' and Norse. The borders was labelled 'Saxon' and the west coast was labelled Gaelic and Norse. Multi-cultural to be sure, what a mongrel!
Can you explain how those Scots who now live in the British zone should not consider themselves British before Scottish??:D
By the way, the region where I'm from was called Rheghed which stretched from today's Wales to central Scotland.
There is no real point to this post except that I think it is a pointless exercise to think of oneself as Scottish before British or even vica versa tbh. Though I would imagine peeps would be concerned if British Asians consider themselves members of an Islamic nation of Britain before British or even mere Pakistani.
I understand the need for an identity and to be proud of it, but being very vocal about it on a message board seems to be very provocative to say the least...it just seems to be not very nice at all. Just my 2p.
I don't think that vocally denigrating other opinions on a message board on their perceptions of their identity is any less provocative...............particularly when that message board is on a forum run by Scots, based in Scotland and the posts are snidey about the Scots. :roll:
England was divided along tribal lines as well, before unification.....does that mean that there is no English identity?
Everyone in the British Isles is entitled to call themselves British...........but the British Isles do not solely consist of the UK..........British is not a nationality.........it is an inhabitant of the British Isles, which includes Eire and the Isle of Man...who are, by nationality, Irish and Manx.
My family has been Scottish and British longer than it has been "British and Scottish".
I may well have French blood from my Fraser lines, or Norse from my various Caithness lines, but I guarantee my ancestors weren't shipped into the North of Scotland after the Union.
North Rhins
20-Feb-07, 00:32
Bit of a one way affair, the Auld Alliance. Didn’t work too well in the ’15 or ’45 but then that’s the French for you.
[FONT=Gill Sans MT]I think your inclusion of the words Asian, Islamic and Pakistani is provocative. The inclusion of these topics is merely a smoke screen which seems to be used more and more these days when someone is running out of ideas.[/FONT
The fact remains that there are some peeps within the UK citizen population that think that British, Asian, Islamic and Pakistani are words that are interchangable. That is extremely worrying. This new concept that we have to put up with, is still in its infancy, we need new security measures to enable ourselves to deal with ithis, I am sure not everyone in the UK wants to go islam...
However, the difference that I see with Scots seeing themselves Scottish before British and other groups with a similar agenda is that generally, the SNP and other xenophobic groups are not willing to pack explosives on to their midriff in order to achieve their aims. Therefore a more benign level of response is required to deal with them. They are in my opinion just a ridiculous faction that needs pacifying from now and again. It is a fact that the most extremist of the SNP wants border control at longtown, how ridiculous is that? Only the tax payer will pay for that and only an idealist one at that!
Rheghead........the SNP are not xenophobic.
Some individuals within the SNP may well be..........just as some members of every party may well be...just as some members on this forum might be...........but the SNP as a political party are not, any more than Caithness.org is. :roll:
North Rhins
20-Feb-07, 01:06
The fact remains that there are some peeps within the UK citizen population that think that British, Asian, Islamic and Pakistani are words that are interchangable. That is extremely worrying. This new concept that we have to put up with, is still in its infancy, we need new security measures to enable ourselves to deal with ithis, I am sure not everyone in the UK wants to go islam...
However, the difference that I see with Scots seeing themselves Scottish before British and other groups with a similar agenda is that generally, the SNP and other xenophobic groups are not willing to pack explosives on to their midriff in order to achieve their aims. Therefore a more benign level of response is required to deal with them. They are in my opinion just a ridiculous faction that needs pacifying from now and again. It is a fact that the most extremist of the SNP wants border control at longtown, how ridiculous is that? Only the tax payer will pay for that and only an idealist one at that!
The only Scots that I have known to pack anything round their midriff usually consists of a few pints of heavy and the odd mutton pie or two. What level of benign pacification would you recommend for these ridiculous recalcitrant Scots?
As for this SNP extremist who wants border controls, what a cracking idea, we could charge all non residents, tourists, & Sassenachs five quid a head each way, think of the coffers. Please name this extremist he may well have other splendid money making scams, sorry ideas.
As for the first part of your reply, there appears to be something missing of the end so I haven’t a clue what you are on about. :confused
Rheghead........the SNP are not xenophobic.
Some individuals within the SNP may well be..........just as some members of every party may well be...just as some members on this forum might be...........but the SNP as a political party are not, any more than Caithness.org is. :roll:
Can you explain why when I suggested to my friends that I wanted to put myself forward for public political office within Caithness that their honest opinion was that I would waste my time due to myself being an Englishman????? I am an honest Labour voter, I want to represent the little guy. How come my political views become irrelevent due to my national identity??? It stinks really.
Can you explain why when I suggested to my friends that I wanted to put myself forward for public political office within Caithness that their honest opinion was that I would waste my time due to myself being an Englishman????? I am an honest Labour voter, I want to represent the little guy. How come my political views become irrelevent due to my national identity??? It stinks really.
And can you tell me how that makes the SNP xenphobic.............or Caithness.org if it comes to that?
Though I don't see that it would be a waste of time...........you're as likely to get in as anyone.......though given your opinion of Scots with whom you don't agree........... and up here that is bound to be a fair wheen of them, given your politics......... can't see why you would want to in the first place.
Anyway, I thought it was PR this time around..so less personalities involved.....and it won't say on your ballot paper that you are English, will it? :confused
North Rhins
20-Feb-07, 22:50
Can you explain why when I suggested to my friends that I wanted to put myself forward for public political office within Caithness that their honest opinion was that I would waste my time due to myself being an Englishman????? I am an honest Labour voter, I want to represent the little guy. How come my political views become irrelevent due to my national identity??? It stinks really.
How do you ever expect to be nominated for local office passing comments such as, quote ‘The Scottish have all the whisky, tartan, highland games, haggis, etc trappings, but that is what they are, mere identity trinkets,’ and ‘ Scottish national identity is all about creating an image that is distinct from Englishness. It is not an identity that has evolved independently but one that has been super-imposed as a direct result of the mentality of 'We are here and you are not going to kill us off!". Isn’t exactly going to endear you to the voting public is it?
If you hold this little country of ours’ in such contempt why do you bother to live here? Is it little wonder that the SNP are gathering momentum, you and people like you are the greatest advert they could ever have.
How do you ever expect to be nominated for local office passing comments such as, quote ‘The Scottish have all the whisky, tartan, highland games, haggis, etc trappings, but that is what they are, mere identity trinkets,’ and ‘ Scottish national identity is all about creating an image that is distinct from Englishness. It is not an identity that has evolved independently but one that has been super-imposed as a direct result of the mentality of 'We are here and you are not going to kill us off!". Isn’t exactly going to endear you to the voting public is it?
If you hold this little country of ours’ in such contempt why do you bother to live here? Is it little wonder that the SNP are gathering momentum, you and people like you are the greatest advert they could ever have.
Nodding vigorously in agreement.........and more power to their elbow, says I!!
If you hold this little country of ours’ in such contempt why do you bother to live here? Is it little wonder that the SNP are gathering momentum, you and people like you are the greatest advert they could ever have.
I don't hold it in contempt and my post was never meant to convey that message, I love the trinkets of Scottish culture, long may they continue. But it is only when I see your sort of attitude that I have asked that very same question many times to myself. I think you have proved my xenophobic accusation regarding the SNP.[disgust]
I was only trying to point out that Scotland being a smaller country than England during the period of post Bruce to 1707 needed to carve an image of unique distinctiveness and character as being distinct from England, prior to that, the distinction in culture was arguably very similiar. England being the greater political and economic powerhouse has a greater national confidence, so , it has little need of these cultural 'trinkets' or any real need to create national distinctiveness or character.
People should not jump to conclusions so readily...
North Rhins
20-Feb-07, 23:44
I don't hold it in contempt and my post was never meant to convey that message, I love the trinkets of Scottish culture, long may they continue. But it is only when I see your sort of attitude that I have asked that very same question many times to myself. I think you have proved my xenophobic accusation regarding the SNP.[disgust]
If you love this country you have a very odd way of showing it. What part of my ‘attitude’ causes you so much distress. I wasn’t aware that I had an attitude, I was merely passing comment on the disparaging comments you had posted about the country you had chosen to live in. I would also ask you to elaborate on my having proved the SNP’s xenophobia. Please feel free to post any anecdotal evidence of this xenophobic allegations you repeatedly refer to, I for one would be intrigued. :confused
I would also ask you to elaborate on my having proved the SNP’s xenophobia. Please feel free to post any anecdotal evidence of this xenophobic allegations you repeatedly refer to, I for one would be intrigued. :confused [/FONT][/SIZE]
Well the evidence is in front of your eyes in the statement
Is it little wonder that the SNP are gathering momentum, you and people like you are the greatest advert they could ever have
You are basically saying that the SNP is full of people who jump to false provocative conclusions about non-scots who voice value-neutral historical observations about Scotland.
That sounds like xenophobia to me.
BTW, I clarified my post in an EDIT above.
North Rhins
21-Feb-07, 00:07
Well the evidence is in front of your eyes in the statement
You are basically saying that the SNP is full of people who jump to false provocative conclusions about non-scots who voice value-neutral historical observations about Scotland.
That sounds like xenophobia to me.
BTW, I clarified my post in an EDIT above.
Well I’m glad you cleared that little lot up. It’s a shame that you didn’t enter politics, there’s enough guff there to make you Prime Minister. If you can’t answer a perfectly legitimate question, then implement plan A, waffle. If that doesn’t work then revert to plan A.
I don't hold it in contempt and my post was never meant to convey that message, I love the trinkets of Scottish culture, long may they continue.
Just calling what is internationally accepted, rightly or wrongly, as Scottish culture "trinkets" simply illustrates your attitude to the Scots, if not to Scotland.
What would the English attitude have been if we came onto an English dominated forum and called Morris Dancing, roast beef, Beefeaters, the Church of England, cricket etc "trinkets"?.
What would the English attitude have been if Jim Rosenthal in speaking about Glasgow Celtic meeting the Queen have been if he had said they met the Queen of Scotland, as he said tonight about Arsenal meeting the Queen of England? Why not just call her the Queen..after all, she is the only one around the UK.
But it is only when I see your sort of attitude that I have asked that very same question many times to myself. I think you have proved my xenophobic accusation regarding the SNP.[disgust]
And you come to that conclusion HOW?
Any xenophobic attitude by ANY Scots towards the English are a direct product of the attitude of people like yourself..............we react to what we are presented with!
I was only trying to point out that Scotland being a smaller country than England during the period of post Bruce to 1707 needed to carve an image of unique distinctiveness and character as being distinct from England, prior to that, the distinction in culture was arguably very similiar. England being the greater political and economic powerhouse has a greater national confidence, so , it has little need of these cultural 'trinkets' in order to create national distinctiveness.
People should not jump to conclusions so readily...
No we didn't, Rheghead.............that is only the opinion of an Englishman who thinks that the most important part of the British Isles has always been England.
Which is probably why England tried, and failed, for hundreds of years to subdue us, and make us another Wales.
But you failed because we are and always have been of unique distinctiveness and character from England.
You are the epitomy of the ignorant, arrogant Englishman which has propelled more and more Scots, over the centuries, to wish to to be rid of your country
We jump to no conclusions......we read what you say...and your explanation is no less arrogant and insulting than your original statements.
As someone living in Scotland, you have certainly learned how to make friends and influence people....................just the kind we need in local Government.....NOT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Rhins http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=192656#post192656)
I would also ask you to elaborate on my having proved the SNP’s xenophobia. Please feel free to post any anecdotal evidence of this xenophobic allegations you repeatedly refer to, I for one would be intrigued.
Well the evidence is in front of your eyes in the statement
:confused
Quote:
Is it little wonder that the SNP are gathering momentum, you and people like you are the greatest advert they could ever have
You are basically saying that the SNP is full of people who jump to false provocative conclusions about non-scots who voice value-neutral historical observations about Scotland.
That sounds like xenophobia to me.
BTW, I clarified my post in an EDIT above.
Sorry, Rheghead...but your observations are NOT value-neutral or historical..........they are English oriented..........why not dig out other observations on the same lines which don't come from English posters anywhere on the internet and link to them to prove me wrong.
When it comes to "observations" like yours, our reactions are not xenophobic..they are "Rheghead ignorance-ophobic"....because we know that not all English people, and certainly not all those who have chosen to live in Caithness are as ignorant and arrogant as you.
Just as well, methinks!
Just calling what is internationally accepted, rightly or wrongly, as Scottish culture "trinkets" simply illustrates your attitude to the Scots, if not to Scotland. In my book, a trinket is something of value which adorns a person. How can this reveal a maligned attitude to Scotland?:confused Sorry but you were jumping to conclusions, xenophobic ones at that.
What would the English attitude have been if we came onto an English dominated forum and called Morris Dancing, roast beef, Beefeaters, the Church of England, cricket etc "trinkets"?. I wouldn't be offended, trinkets are just ornaments that promote beauty except in the case of bling that is where the emphasis is to distract the viewer from the real nature of the person wearing them.
What would the English attitude have been if Jim Rosenthal in speaking about Glasgow Celtic meeting the Queen have been if he had said they met the Queen of Scotland, as he said tonight about Arsenal meeting the Queen of England? Why not just call her the Queen..after all, she is the only one around the UK. It is just a term, get over it for pity's sake. There is a phrase 'What is that, Scotch mist?' but not all mist is scotch.
Any xenophobic attitude by ANY Scots towards the English are a direct product of the attitude of people like yourself..............we react to what we are presented with! Again you have a chip on one's shoulder, as I said before, that may be as a result of England having a greater national confidence than Scotland.
No we didn't, Rheghead.............that is only the opinion of an Englishman who thinks that the most important part of the British Isles has always been England. You said that, not I. Inferiority complex? lack of national confidence? Sort of proves my point, Scotland can do better than a preoccupied whinging about what she thinks what England thinks of her!
Which is probably why England tried, and failed, for hundreds of years to subdue us, and make us another Wales. More SNP war chants, pathetic
But you failed because we are and always have been of unique distinctiveness and character from England.Glad to hear it.
You are the epitomy of the ignorant, arrogant Englishman which has propelled more and more Scots, over the centuries, to wish to to be rid of your country
We jump to no conclusions......we read what you say...and your explanation is no less arrogant and insulting than your original statements.
As someone living in Scotland, you have certainly learned how to make friends and influence people....................just the kind we need in local Government.....NOT!
Great rant, but you have failed (but unconciously proved by the chip on ones shoulder)to see that the emphasis on a promoting a distinct Scottish character of Scotland is the result of a smaller national confidence than England.
The evidence for this lack of national confidence can be seen all over. It is in the language of the people of Scotland, in news and Radio, etc etc. It is not a necessarily a bad thing, it is just that being next to a once economic superpower then it must have effected national moral and confidence in the same way some meek people stammer in the presence of over bearing people. But attitudes around the world have changed. We are living in a truly Global society and to an outsider, a pre-occupied xenophobic attitude towards England will only make Scotland look truly provincial and peripheral to global politics. I think she deserves better...
In my book, a trinket is something of value which adorns a person. How can this reveal a maligned attitude to Scotland? Sorry but you were jumping to conclusions, xenophobic ones at that.
Funny that because in MY book, a trinket is an ornament of little value or worth. It may adorn a person, but is of little value..just a trifle, in fact.
And of course, calling them mere identity trinkets does give one the impression you are being snidey, doesn't it? :roll:
So I jumped to no conclusions..xenophobic or otherwise.
I wouldn't be offended, trinkets are just ornaments that promote beauty except in the case of bling that is where the emphasis is to distract the viewer from the real nature of the person wearing them.
As in my reply to your previous waffle above, Rheghead.
It is just a term, get over it for pity's sake. There is a phrase 'What is that, Scotch mist?' but not all mist is scotch.
No, it isn't just a term...........it would be just a term if we called her Quen of Scots when she was here, or she was Queen of Wales in Wales, or Queen of Northern Ireland when there..............but the fact is that the only nation in the British Isles which assumes that England is the same as Great Britain or the UK is the English one.
And given that there isn't any other monarch to muddle her up with anyway, the of anywhere when in the UK is completely unnecessary anyway.....so why do it?
Nope, not all mist is Scotch..............but all of the Queen is the Queen of the United Kingdom. If the English want her to be Queen of England, then I, for one, would be more than happy to have the Union dissolved and you can get her to yourselves.
You said that, not I. Inferiority complex? lack of national confidence? Sort of proves my point, Scotland can do better than a preoccupied whinging about what she thinks what England thinks of her!
I wasn't talking about England. I was talking about ignorant arrogant Englishmen..or at least one in particular. If you didn't intend to give the impression I received, then you should have chosen your words a deal more carefully. All anyone can react to are the words you write, after all.
More SNP war chants, pathetic
Nope......fact..............you want a list of attempts?
Great rant, but you have failed (but unconciously proved by the chip on ones shoulder)to see that the emphasis on a promoting a distinct Scottish character of Scotland is the result of a smaller national confidence than England.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder...........but you do epitomise the kind of Englishman I really can't abide, and I am having great difficulty being polite.
There is no emphasis on promoting a distinct Scottish character of Scotland.........there is no need.........it existed before the Union and hasn't been changed by the Union.
The only difference is that we have to shout louder to be heard over all the people like you, but it is people like you who will help those of us wanting independence to achieve it.maybe not tomorrow, but we will achieve it.
Thanks for the help you and your fellow xenophobes are giving us. Much obliged, believe me! :D
Thanks for the help you and your fellow xenophobes are giving us. Much obliged, believe me! :D
It's not me that is being accused of xenophobia.
I was listening to a frank interview on the radio with a certain Scotsman who was Chief of Camden Council in London. He believed that xenophobia is endemic in Scottish life and politics but strictly confined to xenophobia towards the English. He pitied not the English but the Scottish, his own, for feeling the way they do. But he believed the Scottish will grow out of it given more time in a Global community. He had the benefit of being treated as an equal British citizen in England (in England, he said Scots were not prejudiced against in the same manner as the English in Scotland)and looking in on the Scottish political landscape, ie, the unhealthy rise in anti english xenophobia amongst the SNP. He pointed out how many Scots born MPs were representing English constituencies, quite a few, I may add, and how many English born MSPs or MPs of Scottish constituencies. A big fat zero was the answer. Evidence of xenophobia I should imagine. He said all this was Scotland's problem to sort out for herself and said that England was not to blame. Of course you can dig out the battle of this and that but it is hardly relevent today, in fact not at all.
It is basically like living in Creighton's 'State of Fear' here with the SNP whipping up auld rivalries etc, Scotland is all wo and down at heal and it is all England's fault, England has been stealing the Scottish oily jewels and there will be nowt left. I have heard it time and time again, it is like a broken record player and none of it is relevent or true.
BTW You had a gripe about Jim Rosenthal going on about 'The Queen of England' but how many times have scots on the Org have a gripe and calling the BBC the English Broadcasting company, and calling the Westminster the English parliament? You have to admit that it is the same kind of faux pas but more intended than Rosanthal's innocent gaff?
There is no emphasis on promoting a distinct Scottish character of Scotland.........there is no need.........it existed before the Union and hasn't been changed by the Union.
There are two thing that I would like to address out of that quote.
Firstly, I am glad you feel that the Union doesn't threaten the Scottish national distinctiveness or character. We agree.
Secondly, Scottishness developed as a result of the activities of Edward I and hence the Scottish Declaration of Independence. That is where Scotland as we know it was born, so yes it existed before Union but not before Arbroath on a real wholesale scale. Prior to Arbroath, Scotland like England was ruled by Norman rulers in the South, Norse in the north and other tribal factions, much like England was prior to 1066. My point being is that Scottishness was a direct result of anti-England propaganda. It served a multi purpose role of uniting all of Scotland under one banner, the Saltire, by golly what a lovely flag it is as well!
History is History, it belongs in the past. I hope to see Scotland as a modern nation one day, but if they keep rolling out old Sean again and going on about used oil and bannock burn then I am afraid I just get cynical about it all.
It's not me that is being accused of xenophobia.
I was listening to a frank interview on the radio with a certain Scotsman who was Chief of Camden Council in London. He believed that xenophobia is endemic in Scottish life and politics but strictly confined to xenophobia towards the English. He pitied not the English but the Scottish, his own, for feeling the way they do. But he believed the Scottish will grow out of it given more time in a Global community. He had the benefit of being treated as an equal British citizen in England (in England, he said Scots were not prejudiced against in the same manner as the English in Scotland)and looking in on the Scottish political landscape, ie, the unhealthy rise in anti english xenophobia amongst the SNP. He pointed out how many Scots born MPs were representing English constituencies, quite a few, I may add, and how many English born MSPs or MPs of Scottish constituencies. A big fat zero was the answer. Evidence of xenophobia I should imagine. He said all this was Scotland's problem to sort out for herself and said that England was not to blame. Of course you can dig out the battle of this and that but it is hardly relevent today, in fact not at all.
You are.........by me.
I set no store by the opinions of British Scots, myself..although given his job and his domicile..........he would say that, wouldn't he?
By the way, there are English born MSPs in all parties. And out of interest compared to the one in twelve which is the proportion of English people in the country, the English born MSPs in Edinburgh are in the proportion of one in nine.
A few names for you...............Mike Rumbles, Mary Mulligan, Mark Ruskell, Robin Harper, Chris Ballance,Mark Ballard,Shona Robison, Jamie McGrigor,
Robert Brown,Shiona Baird,Phil Gallie,Christine Graham, Des McNulty,Elaine Murray...............just from a quick check through the Scottish Parliament website. Something you could have done for yourself, of course, if you weren't so keen to spread misinformation.
There's one born in Hongkong, one born in the USA and one born in Ireland as well, btw.
As for MPs........on a quick check, Angus Robertson, the last SNP MP I voted for before moving here was born in England, and to him you can add , Gordon Banks, Alistair Darling,Mark Lazarowicz and Malcolm Bruce at least. And one born in Ireland, and one born in Pakistan.
Xenophobia?
Btw I wasn't the one who brought up Scottish history......you were........and the battles are a part of that.
It is basically like living in Creighton's 'State of Fear' here with the SNP whipping up auld rivalries etc, Scotland is all wo and down at heal and it is all England's fault, England has been stealing the Scottish oily jewels and there will be nowt left. I have heard it time and time again, it is like a broken record player and none of it is relevent or true.
BTW You had a gripe about Jim Rosenthal going on about 'The Queen of England' but how many times have scots on the Org have a gripe and calling the BBC the English Broadcasting company, and calling the Westminster the English parliament? You have to admit that it is the same kind of faux pas but more intended than Rosanthal's innocent gaff?
You do talk a lot of rot............the SNP that I have been a member of since a teenager doesn't whip up auld rivalries etc..........they state facts and ambitions............it is hardly our fault that the facts sometimes cause pro-Brits to bluster, like you do, because they can't deny them and the ambitions are scaring the daylights out of pro-Brits because they can see their repository for all that England doesn't want on her soil disappearing over the horizon.
Not quite accurate, Rheghead.............Scots on the org call the BBC the English Broadcasting company because, for a National Broadcasting company there is very little but English output...........particularly in the "national" news. I don't think I have ever called the British Parliament the English one, or noticed it on the org.but I have seen it on other websites....written by Englishmen, to boot........though I have called it an English dominated one.........which it is.
The difference is, though, that calling institutions English is generally a response to some remark previously made....Jim Rosenthall's remark reveals a mindset which has always pertained among a very large proportion of English people.
I have met many of them, in Scotland and England who always called Britain England, and have never thought of it as anything else........until, of course, I ranted.
Secondly, Scottishness developed as a result of the activities of Edward I and hence the Scottish Declaration of Independence. That is where Scotland as we know it was born, so yes it existed before Union but not before Arbroath on a real wholesale scale. Prior to Arbroath, Scotland like England was ruled by Norman rulers in the South, Norse in the north and other tribal factions, much like England was prior to 1066. My point being is that Scottishness was a direct result of anti-England propaganda. It served a multi purpose role of uniting all of Scotland under one banner, the Saltire, by golly what a lovely flag it is as well!
According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica,Malcolm II (935-1034) ruled over a territory roughly equivalent to modern Scotland, although it was under Macbeth, who died in 1057 that the North and South actually became united. So it looks as if we were actually ahead of the English in becoming a united nation. :roll:
The Declaration of Arbroath was not the birth of the Scottish Nation.........if you ever read it, you'd have seen it was actually a petition to the Pope from to use his influence to get successive English monarchs to leave Scotland and the Scots alone, so they could get on with their life. :roll:
If you are going to cite Scottish historical fact, kindly get it right.
History is History, it belongs in the past. I hope to see Scotland as a modern nation one day, but if they keep rolling out old Sean again and going on about used oil and bannock burn then I am afraid I just get cynical about it all.
So why keep bringing it up?
bannock burn was Alfred the Great burning the cakes, wasn't it...what has that to do with Scotland?
Scotland is a modern nation, Rheghead.....just not an independent one yet.
Hmm
This is an interesting one. As an english woman living with a scottish man in Inverness I wonder where i sit.
I think national identity is in your heart, being scottish is about being part of the great traditions and the great history - the stories of Bruce and Comyn, Red Hector of the battles, the fight for independance, the scots language, the gaelic language, the celarances and all the various different aspects of history all wrapped up. It might not be printed on a passport - yet - but its there nevertheless. I take great pride in being a "northern lass" I like to think i am a what you see is what you get sort of person and that my heritage is about the industrial revolution and steeped in the "dark satanic mills" of my lancashire past.
I think to take away national identity - be it english welsh scots or irish - would be a real shame. I have listened often to the SNP and I have never found them xenophobic, i dont find scotland a xenophobic place to live, I heard the SNP state that their goal is an inclusive independant Scotland and i think thats a goal worth working towards...if we can square the economics. I doubt that rheghead would be unelectable simply because he is english and i am surprised that he let a simple conversation put him off trying. I always think that those people that say "its because i am english" use it as a cover up for the fact that they are actually blinkered and sometimes quite unpleasant.
If you are going to cite Scottish historical fact, kindly get it right.
bannock burn was Alfred the Great burning the cakes, wasn't it...what has that to do with Scotland?
Goodness me, your ignorance of Scottish history holds no bounds!!! You have lost all credibility in my eyes, I was thinking for a second that I may have a challenge in you.
On the subject of English born Scottish MPs, fair enough, I was quite wrong but if I changed the parameter to those who are visibly and audibly English then it might be a story set of statistics.
Goodness me, your ignorance of Scottish history holds no bounds!!! You have lost all credibility in my eyes, I was thinking for a second that I may have a challenge in you.
And you actually believe I don't know about Bannockburn.....come on! :roll:
A bannock is a kinda scone btw..hence the cake comment!
Now if you had got it right and written Bannockburn.........or even at a pinch, Bannock Burn I might have replied sensibly.
I'm not ignorant of Scottish history...........you are, however, ignorant of Scottish placenames........we use capital letters to distinguish them from things like scones and wee streams or fires............it is surprising for someone who pontificates on Scotland and the Scots with such an air of authority.
On the subject of English born Scottish MPs, fair enough, I was quite wrong but if I changed the parameter to those who are visibly and audibly English then it might be a story set of statistics.
But being born in a country appears, as far as the English are concerned, to have much more importance than where they live.............you only have to see the shouting about Tony Blair to understand that...........The fact that he thinks of himself as British, and sits for an English constituency pales into insignificance when they consider that he was born in Scotland.
So why change the criteria when it comes to people in Scottish Constituencies being born in England?
I could do you a list of people wholly educated in England.........names which I didn't include because they didn't actually give a place of birth............but then, you could always look them up yourself. :roll:
Anyway audibly English would include Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, so that means nothing...............and what on earth do you mean by visibly English?
Perhaps I should have used the phraseology 'Window dressing' to describe the cultural items such as Highland dancing, tartan, whisky, etc etc. Perhaps it may have prevented a daft reaction? :lol:
But being born in a country appears, as far as the English are concerned, to have much more importance than where they live.............you only have to see the shouting about Tony Blair to understand that...........The fact that he thinks of himself as British, and sits for an English constituency pales into insignificance when they consider that he was born in Scotland.
So why change the criteria when it comes to people in Scottish Constituencies being born in England?
I could do you a list of people wholly educated in England.........names which I didn't include because they didn't actually give a place of birth............but then, you could always look them up yourself. :roll:
Anyway audibly English would include Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, so that means nothing...............and what on earth do you mean by visibly English?
All that was not my words but the Chief of Camden council. He was the one who was pointing out the disparity of English in the Scottish executive. I was just listening to what he had to say, not my facts I'm afraid.
And you actually believe I don't know about Bannockburn.....come on! :roll:
A bannock is a kinda scone btw..hence the cake comment!
Now if you had got it right and written Bannockburn.........or even at a pinch, Bannock Burn I might have replied sensibly.
I'm not ignorant of Scottish history...........you are, however, ignorant of Scottish placenames........we use capital letters to distinguish them from things like scones and wee streams or fires............it is surprising for someone who pontificates on Scotland and the Scots with such an air of authority.
How do I know you weren't ignorant of Scottish history, you made a damn good show of it, I must have been jumping to conclusions like you were about me and my supposed contempt for the Scottish people. For your info, my missus would have divorced me long ago if she thought I was holding the people of Scotland in contempt and she actually votes for the SNP!!!
I have listened often to the SNP and I have never found them xenophobic.
Twelve men and women listened to Nick Griffin in a lengthy court case and they didn't find him guilty of stirring up racial hatred either.
How do I know you weren't ignorant of Scottish history, you made a damn good show of it, I must have been jumping to conclusions like you were about me and my supposed contempt for the Scottish people. For your info, my missus would have divorced me long ago if she thought I was holding the people of Scotland in contempt and she actually votes for the SNP!!!
I'd be interested to have examples of where I am ignorant of Scottish history.
The Scottish interpretation of what our history means may not be that of the English, but the facts about items like the Declaration of Arbroath are chiels which winna ding.
I have to say I am surprised that your wife would vote for a xenophobic party like the SNP.:roll:
If you don't want folk to jump to conclusions..you simply don't write stuff which allows people to jump to conclusions, because it isn't blatantly obvious it is a wind-up.
After all, that is nothing more or less than a typical flaming ploy.......little of your posts on this thread have served to advance the discussion...there only purpose appears to have been to get people's backs up...and you have suceeded.
The only xenophobic person I see on this thread is yourself.........and it is a bit ironic as you are the "foreigner".
I think that Squidge has the right idea when she says I always think that those people that say "its because i am english" use it as a cover up for the fact that they are actually blinkered and sometimes quite unpleasant.
Twelve men and women listened to Nick Griffin in a lengthy court case and they didn't find him guilty of stirring up racial hatred either.
Where does racial hatred come into it?
Racial hatred is something defined in law............if they were not legally guilty, then even if everyone else thought they were morally guilty, they were not guilty.
How good the legal system is in England is another thread altogether.
The BNP and the SNP are something quite different rheghead - The SNP state quite clearly that they are for an "inclusive independant scotland" and that is quite quite different fromt he BNP standpoint - there is absolutely nothing "inclusive" about them
Having been called a "White Settler" simply because I do not speak with a Scots accent I will let others decide if that is an example of a "xenophobic" attitude being displayed by certain sections of Scots society.
I would add, however, that the persons who made the comment were the sort of people who would have had the same "attitude problem" whatever society or nationality they belonged to.
It is not an attitude I have found to be widespread amongst Scots but to pretend it does no exist at all and that certain political groups, even if they do not openly encourage it, are quite happy to make use of it and would not be unhappy to see it become more widespread is nothing more than pious wishful thinking.
Your post is nicely veiled Jaws but direct from the horses mouth i find
The SNP’s inclusive nationalism.
What about concerns over nationalism? (http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/anewcountry/3.1/) The opponents of Independence often use the word “nationalism” to mean ethnic strife, intolerance or isolation. Obviously, the SNP rejects any of these as deserving any place in Scotland. Nationalism, like many other political ideas, can indeed be misused, but not when it is founded in democracy and a respect for human rights. Will I be a citizen of the new Scotland? (http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/anewcountry/3.2/) In the context of EU citizenship, the SNP has an open and inclusive approach to citizenship. What if I don't want to become a Scottish citizen? (http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/anewcountry/3.3/) Even if a resident of Scotland, as of Independence Day, chooses not to take up Scottish citizenship, he or she will continue to enjoy an unaffected right to residency in the country. http://www.snp.org/independence/questions/anewcountry/
Where is the xenophobia in that statement or the keeness to exploit anti english feeling? If you look here http://www.alba.org.uk/scot07constit then you will find profies of SNP candidates which include people from South Shields, Blackburn, India , reading and other places. You find people born in Scotland who have been educated and worked in england and Vice versa.
Jamie Stone said " The SNP have xenophobic tendencies" I dont agree with that and i find no actual evidence of it. In his clarification he said ""It is arguable that all over the world, it is unfortunate that nationalism can sometimes overlap with xenophobia" I think he is right ab out that but as an english person I beleive the SNP does a good job in the 21st century of being an inclusive party which doesnt focus its policies on Getting shot of England but on Scotland making decisions about itself. Its a fine line they are walking for sure but I think they do it ok
As for Independance well if the economics stack up why not? Im not convinced they do, I dont fully understand it but id like to see a valid argument about the economics. the argument about whether they want independance cos they hate the english is nonsense - it doesnt stack up.
I was amused by prominent members of the SNP who derided Gordon Brown's cheesy declaration for support of the England national football team when the very same people pithily reserved their right to support any national football team that they wished to choose during the World Cup. If that isn't blatant evidence of xenophobia in their mindset then what is?:confused
If that isn't blatant evidence of xenophobia in their mindset then what is?:confused
Its Football!!!!!
I have seen you do this before Rheghead. Whenever an argument is raised over these sort of issues you have wheeled out football as an example of blatent racism or xenophobia!!!!
Its football - normal rules do not apply.
My sister in law is an Oldham Athletic season ticket holder ( i know I know - i dont get it either) She would NEVER cheer for Manchester United.... She would ALWAYS cheer for whoever was their opposition. See when David Beckham played for both Utd and England she would cheer him wholeheartedly when he played for England but see when he played for ManU he was rubbish!!!!
Utd, City, Newcastle, Sunderland, Liverpool Everton etc etc etc proximity doesnt make for automatic support.... why should it?
If you cant come up with any better examples than football then you have not got a leg to stand on - or to kick a football with maybe:D
I find it amusing that the SNP feel they even need to deliver denial statements over nationalism on their website. Actions speak louder than words. I remember Mugabe making similar statements about their vision of an inclusive Zimbabwe...
SNP = BNP = Mugabe!!!
[lol]
Thats a big step and a ridiculous one in my opinion. Like i said so far you have held out no evidence of xenophobia in the SNP other than the football analogy which is so trite as to be laughable. Im STILL waiting to see some really meaty evidence that isnt dependant on the colours you wear when you kick a ball around a field!!!!
SNP = BNP = Mugabe
I don't recall saying that. I was just making the political point that political parties that are in ascendence will basically say anything to get wider political support.
I would add though that Salmond was once expelled from the SNP for being in an extreme left wing faction, Mugabe has extreme left wing ideologies as well, both are anti British.
Salmond indeed was expelled for being a member of a left wing group. They wanted an independant scotland to be a"socialist republic" To be honest i can see how attractive that would have looked in 1980 faced with the rise and rise of Margaret Thatcher...
Mugabe was a left wing manipulator who following a civil war was able to manipulate the country and set himself up as a dictator.
Like with like???? I think not
Still no concrete evidence :roll:
Jamie Stone said " The SNP have xenophobic tendencies" I dont agree with that and i find no actual evidence of it. In his clarification he said ""It is arguable that all over the world, it is unfortunate that nationalism can sometimes overlap with xenophobia" I think he is right ab out that but as an english person I beleive the SNP does a good job in the 21st century of being an inclusive party which doesnt focus its policies on Getting shot of England but on Scotland making decisions about itself. Its a fine line they are walking for sure but I think they do it ok
Squidge, what dont you believe?
1. That Jamie Stone said that or
2. That "The SNP have xenophobic tendencies"
IMHO The SNP are just a "Ginger" group in Scotland, and I say this as I was card carrying active member of the SNP in the 60's, until I saw the light.
They were classed as "Tartan Tories" in those days and again IMO I think they still are.
You mentioned Football and Gordon Brown also, his alleged support of the World Cup and England to me was him stating as the Westminster Prime Minister designate, his backing of the Government and not a personal preference to the English team.
Gordon is well known for his loyalty to his beloved Raith Rovers.
Squidge with great love and respect, stick to Cricket or Tennis [lol]
Golach
I dont beleive that ther is evidence to support Jamie Stone's comments that the SNP are xenophobic.
I do agree that nationalism can overlap with xenophobia.
I didnt actually mention football - i think you will find that Rheghead introduced it as an example of xenophobia within SNP. I dont beleive that a persons support for or lack of support for is evidence of xenophobic tendencies - i beleive it is football rivalry
I beleive that Rhegheads allusion to the football thing is stuff and nonsense and a complete smokescreen
I beleive that The SNP today is a different animal than in the 1960s
I have no idea whether they are right or wrong about independance but as the thread asks I do not beleive that they are xenophobic in their policies
Is that a bit clearer now golach?
Squidge, would you agree that the BNP is now a different animal than it was in the early years? They claim so and outwardly they do seem to have a facadal respectability to them.
Different animal? A leopard doesn't change its spots!;)
Salmond indeed was expelled for being a member of a left wing group. They wanted an independant scotland to be a"socialist republic" When did that policy change?
No i dont think the BNP is a differnet animal to be honest - it is basically still a racist organisation.
The SNP is different from what i can gather and i do beleive that a leopard can change its spots lol - look at you rheghead -ooooooooooh the stories i heard ;)
I do beleive that there should be a real discussion about the policies of the SNP - particularly about independance which focusses on the real issues - econimics, social policy and political clout on the world stage... instead of this catcalling and bitchiness
When did that policy change?
Well spotted, they still want that![lol]
I think they were scared they were communists lol
OK, policy No. 1
Uni-lateral Disarmament.
Lots of work for Scotland in the nuclear deterrent at the moment, hmm, i don't like seeing folks without jobs. Hmm, are they going to do a Georgia and retain some if they change their minds?
No 2
Scrapping the pound and joining the EU.
Gosh, the most Euro sceptic bunch are the Scots yet they want Scotland to go from the frying pan into the fire??[lol]
Hardly true Independence being in a Federalised State is it?
See this is exactly what i mean - These subjects are worthy of discussion Rheghead but your "they all hate us english " stuff just obliterates the REAL issues.
I struggle with the economics of it - I really do and i would love someone who beleives independance could work to post a coherent argument and someone who thinks it couldnt to say why not. That might actually give some of us a foundation upon which to start to understand the economics and make a sensible decision about whther independance is a good idea or not.
North Rhins
22-Feb-07, 21:49
Tell me Reggie, if you lived in France, or Germany or perhaps Spain, would you post replies such as those above on one of their forums? Would you tell them that they were xenophobic, or would you start giving them lessons on their history? Or perhaps you would tell them that their national identities and traditions were mere ‘trinkets.’
Or is it a fact that as an Englishman, living in Scotland, you can do and say what you want, however hurtful to the indigenous population. After all, if you look back at our history, you wouldn’t be the first Englishman to do it.
percy toboggan
22-Feb-07, 22:53
The BNP and the SNP are something quite different rheghead - The SNP state quite clearly that they are for an "inclusive independant scotland" and that is quite quite different fromt he BNP standpoint - there is absolutely nothing "inclusive" about them
So, does this make the BNP 'exclusive' then?
I agree, the BNP bear no resemblance to the SNP, although both want what they see as the best outcome for their natural constituency.
The BNP should change their name to the ENP forthwith. It would tap into the current English nationalist mood and stop liberal and inlcusive Scots agonising about their motives.
The_man_from_del_monte
22-Feb-07, 22:58
Rheghead........the SNP are not xenophobic.
I agree...... they're just a bunch of small minded idiots with delusions of persecution and big chips on their shoulders, quite a sad bunch really.
The_man_from_del_monte
22-Feb-07, 23:15
Or is it a fact that as an Englishman, living in Scotland, you can do and say what you want, however hurtful to the indigenous population. After all, if you look back at our history, you wouldn’t be the first Englishman to do it.
I think it's the other way round mate, the jocks can mouth off in England (ever heard of the West Lothian Question?) exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English matters while the English themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland (ie: Scottish MPs can vote on English issues but English MPs can't vote on Scottish issues.) The Scots have been spouting crap in other people's countries for years from David Livingstone bible bashing in Africa to the Krankies to George Galloway........
Cedric Farthsbottom III
23-Feb-07, 00:35
I think it's the other way round mate, the jocks can mouth off in England (ever heard of the West Lothian Question?) exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English matters while the English themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland (ie: Scottish MPs can vote on English issues but English MPs can't vote on Scottish issues.) The Scots have been spouting crap in other people's countries for years from David Livingstone bible bashing in Africa to the Krankies to George Galloway........
When did the Krankies ever "spout crap",c'mon the man I await yer answer?
Metalattakk
23-Feb-07, 01:28
I think it's the other way round mate, the jocks...
Sorry. I stopped reading your post as soon as I read that.
Tell me Reggie, if you lived in France, or Germany or perhaps Spain, would you post replies such as those above on one of their forums? Would you tell them that they were xenophobic, or would you start giving them lessons on their history? Or perhaps you would tell them that their national identities and traditions were mere ‘trinkets.’
Or is it a fact that as an Englishman, living in Scotland, you can do and say what you want, however hurtful to the indigenous population. After all, if you look back at our history, you wouldn’t be the first Englishman to do it.
I would only speak about those sections of those countries who were xenophobic, ie, ETA, the french national front and the growing nazis in Germany.
All countries have their 'trinkets' of culture but all people are basically the same on the inside.
[QUOTE=North Rhins;193551Or is it a fact that as an Englishman, living in Scotland, you can do and say what you want, however hurtful to the indigenous population. After all, if you look back at our history, you wouldn’t be the first Englishman to do it. [/QUOTE]Well said especially as the Scots who go to England have a tendency to act in exactly the same way.
Scots anywhere are only to eager to place the blame for all Scotland's historical woes at the door of the English and still are quite ready to continue doing so.
Of course, the English even hinting that something, however minor, should be placed at Scotland’s door automatically provokes howls of anguish that that anybody should dare think such a thing.
Scot’s are only too ready to accept Hollywood’s version of Braveheart, even if they had to get an Australian to play him.
Anybody spot the deliberate mistake in that statement?
Metalattakk
23-Feb-07, 04:58
Which statement? Yours or North Rhins'? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate further.
I presume the deliberate mistake isn't the over-abundance of misplaced apostrophes. ;)
Which statement? Yours or North Rhins'? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate further.
I presume the deliberate mistake isn't the over-abundance of misplaced apostrophes. ;)
Mine and definitely not my placing or even misplacing of apostrophes. :eek: I should have said, "in my last statement" at the end of the post.
The question is more a mischievious tease than deadly serious and is in no way meant as a serious intellectual interrogation. Nor is the answer one which shoud create any sort of disagreement.
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