View Full Version : What happens to my pay and pension after independence?
Better Out Than In
19-Dec-13, 14:15
I am presently paid in UK sterling by a multi-national business that is UK registered with head office in England. If Scotland goes independent what happens to my pay? Do I get paid in UK Sterling and then have to pay for conversion to new Scottish Groat myself - what if Groat is worth much less that £ - I could be severly out of pocket.
Similarly with the several pension funds I have. I woul dhope they remain in £'s. If I need to money to use in Scotland I might lose severly on conversion.
This assumes that Scotland would need to have its own currency e.g. Scottish Groat as seems most likely outcome. If Scotland ops for Euro same argument applies.
I suppose same problem would exist if I want to purchase anything from abroad e.g. England or Wales or N Ireland.
It'll be a barter system.
You should be more concerned with the value of the Scottish goat.
You'd I be in the same position as thousands of ex-pats living in France And Spain who have seen the value of their pensions fall steadily over the last four or five years.
I am presently paid in UK sterling by a multi-national business that is UK registered with head office in England. If Scotland goes independent what happens to my pay? Do I get paid in UK Sterling and then have to pay for conversion to new Scottish Groat myself - what if Groat is worth much less that £ - I could be severly out of pocket.
Similarly with the several pension funds I have. I woul dhope they remain in £'s. If I need to money to use in Scotland I might lose severly on conversion.
This assumes that Scotland would need to have its own currency e.g. Scottish Groat as seems most likely outcome. If Scotland ops for Euro same argument applies.
I suppose same problem would exist if I want to purchase anything from abroad e.g. England or Wales or N Ireland.
That would kinda depend if the rUK Government does pouting, foot stamping and huffing rather than pragmatism and commonsense......wouldn't it? Nothing to do with Scotland if the rUK won't negotiate a Currency Union. After all, when Ireland became Independent, they had a Currency Union, open borders etc..which lasted until Ireland joined the EU....something which seems unacceptable now it is Scotland in the frame. It is likely that Scotland will use the pound anyway, albeit informally, until a Plan B can be implemented (and that won't be the Euro as that has a time lag to meet criteria for joining).
You are aware, I suppose that it would be the easiest thing in the world for Westminster to say right now that they were OK with the principle of a Currency Union, without giving details of what it would entail......but that would mean that they lose one plank of their Fear Factor justification for voting NO...and as they have little else to recommend the Union other than the Fear Factor.....they won't do that...just as they won't ask the EU about the situation for both countries if there is a dissolution of the Union.
You are aware, I suppose that it would be the easiest thing in the world for Westminster to say right now that they were OK with the principle of a Currency Union, without giving details of what it would entail......but that would mean that they lose one plank of their Fear Factor justification for voting NO...and as they have little else to recommend the Union other than the Fear Factor.....they won't do that...just as they won't ask the EU about the situation for both countries if there is a dissolution of the Union.
Why should they give into the demands of a group that want to destroy the Union and all thats good?
After all, when Ireland became Independent, they had a Currency Union, open borders etc..which lasted until Ireland joined the EU....
Oh no they didn't;) - when the Republic of Ireland joined the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1978 the 'one for one' arrangement with sterling ended. At various times until they adopted the Euro the value of the Punt fluctuated against sterling just like any other foreign currency.
I am presently paid in UK sterling by a multi-national business that is UK registered with head office in England. If Scotland goes independent what happens to my pay? Do I get paid in UK Sterling and then have to pay for conversion to new Scottish Groat myself - what if Groat is worth much less that £ - I could be severly out of pocket.
Similarly with the several pension funds I have. I woul dhope they remain in £'s. If I need to money to use in Scotland I might lose severly on conversion.
This assumes that Scotland would need to have its own currency e.g. Scottish Groat as seems most likely outcome. If Scotland ops for Euro same argument applies.
I suppose same problem would exist if I want to purchase anything from abroad e.g. England or Wales or N Ireland.
The answers to this are all there - You work for a multi national business - if they are multi national then they already have systems in place to pay people in several - even many different countries. If you ask your personnel department they should be able to advise you.
If you look specifically at an independent country then we know what will happen in all the scenarios you ask about because these situations already exist.
The Scottish Government plan for Scotland to keep the pound. If that happens then you will be paid in Sterling. Simple. your pensions also will be paid in sterling.
If Scotland has its own currency then you would be paid in the new Currency unless your employer offers you the option of being paid in Sterling - I guess that depends on your employer. So if Scotland becomes Independent in March 2016 then your April Pay will be in the new Scottish Currency but it will be a straight conversion - If you get £100 then you will get £100 of the new currency.
You will also be able to hold onto English based accounts and hold your money in Sterling or have a Scottish based account and hold your money in the new currency. You can transfer money between them as you choose or need to.
If the pensions are held in The UK with head offices in England then your pensions are likely to be paid in sterling. The whole shebang with the accounts is still available to you and you can transfer money to a new scottish currency if and when you need to do so.
Many people who live abroad do this all the time - if you have friends who do so then ask them how it works.
hope that helps :)
( I havent even talked about the Euro because there is not the remotest possibility of us using the Euro in the foreseeable future.)
We'll get paid in the Ecku.
The answers to this are all there - You work for a multi national business - if they are multi national then they already have systems in place to pay people in several - even many different countries. If you ask your personnel department they should be able to advise you.
If you look specifically at an independent country then we know what will happen in all the scenarios you ask about because these situations already exist.
The Scottish Government plan for Scotland to keep the pound. If that happens then you will be paid in Sterling. Simple. your pensions also will be paid in sterling.
If Scotland has its own currency then you would be paid in the new Currency unless your employer offers you the option of being paid in Sterling - I guess that depends on your employer. So if Scotland becomes Independent in March 2016 then your April Pay will be in the new Scottish Currency but it will be a straight conversion - If you get £100 then you will get £100 of the new currency.
You will also be able to hold onto English based accounts and hold your money in Sterling or have a Scottish based account and hold your money in the new currency. You can transfer money between them as you choose or need to.
If the pensions are held in The UK with head offices in England then your pensions are likely to be paid in sterling. The whole shebang with the accounts is still available to you and you can transfer money to a new scottish currency if and when you need to do so.
Many people who live abroad do this all the time - if you have friends who do so then ask them how it works.
hope that helps :)
( I havent even talked about the Euro because there is not the remotest possibility of us using the Euro in the foreseeable future.)
Blimey, that all sounds inconvenient. P'raps better vote NO.
Yes...but, no...but... What if the new Scottish currency falls in value against sterling just as the Euro has done in the past reducing the income of ex-pats living abroad. There can never be any guarantee a Scottish currency will hold its value against sterling.
( I havent even talked about the Euro because there is not the remotest possibility of us using the Euro in the foreseeable future.)But the current plan is for Indy Scotland to ascend to the EU, my bet is the deal on the table will be membership with the euro.
Oh no they didn't;) - when the Republic of Ireland joined the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1978 the 'one for one' arrangement with sterling ended. At various times until they adopted the Euro the value of the Punt fluctuated against sterling just like any other foreign currency.
That's splitting hairs......because the parity existed for 50+ years until the Irish Government decided otherwise.because it was the joining of the EERM which broke the link.
My point was that I am just puzzled as to why it was quite acceptable for Ireland, which shot its way to Independence, to use the pound ....and not for Scotland, which is trying to do it without killing anyone, to do so.
My point was that I am just puzzled as to why it was quite acceptable for Ireland, which shot its way to Independence, to use the pound ....and not for Scotland, which is trying to do it without killing anyone, to do so.
Anyone you could ask is dead, of old age if nothing else.
But the current plan is for Indy Scotland to ascend to the EU, my bet is the deal on the table will be membership with the euro.
Nah..the current plan is to use the pound. And the next current plan is to have an election for a Scottish Government...... what happens after that will depend on what the people of Scotland decide. There are convergence criteria to be met to join the Euro, starting with a successful 2 years in the ERM....and while there is an obligation to join the euro for new states..there is no obligation to meet the criteria........so a Catch 22 situation....or a back door get out clause? ;)
Anyone you could ask is dead, of old age if nothing else.
Which doesn't alter the facts......does it? Ireland had a Currency Union for fifty odd years........and there were open borders between both countries..... yet we are getting Westminster putting on the petulant petted lip when we assume that they will treat us the same.....and forgive me, but the only difference I can see between the two situations is that Ireland fought for their independence.
Yes...but, no...but... What if the new Scottish currency falls in value against sterling just as the Euro has done in the past reducing the income of ex-pats living abroad. There can never be any guarantee a Scottish currency will hold its value against sterling.
Which is why a Currency Union is the preferred option in the short term at least. Anyhow....there is no guarantee that an rUK Currency will hold its value against the Scottish pound in the medium to long term.....is there? Things happen fast in the world of trading money.....as evidenced by Westminster sending out press releases and leaflets saying that Scotland couldn't expect to keep the same AAA rating as the UK had......just as that rating for the UK was being reduced. :Razz
Which doesn't alter the facts......does it? Ireland had a Currency Union for fifty odd years........and there were open borders between both countries..... yet we are getting Westminster putting on the petulant petted lip when we assume that they will treat us the same.....and forgive me, but the only difference I can see between the two situations is that Ireland fought for their independence.
Away you go and fight then.
Away you go and fight then.
They tried blowing up a few pillar boxes and stole a lump of stone, naw luck there then.They could not fight their way out of a paper bag.
macadamia
21-Dec-13, 09:07
Well, boys and girls, I'm glad THAT's been cleared up.
They tried blowing up a few pillar boxes and stole a lump of stone, naw luck there then.They could not fight their way out of a paper bag.
Would you have preferred they blew up people to make a point, then? I was simply commenting on the fact that Westminster appears to take more notice of violence than democracy.
A former SNP leader plotted to set up a puppet Nazi government in Scotland.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305
A former SNP leader plotted to set up a puppet Nazi government in Scotland.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305
ROFLMAO! The media running short of Project Fear scare stories from the politicians, are they?
ROFLMAO! The media running short of Project Fear scare stories from the politicians, are they?
Quit blustering.
Your cover's blown!
Those of you worried about your pensions from English based companies, if Scotland votes Yes. May I make a suggestion, why not immigrate to Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Malta. UK pensioners seem to be able to get their pensions there. They can also come back to the UK if they need hospital treatment. Not sure if this would be possible if Scotland became Independent as rUK would cut off all contact with that rebel dictatorship of a country.
What a load of rubbish. The eyes of the world will be on Britain watching how the mother of parliaments and the upholder of fairness and human rights conducts itself. If Scotland votes for independence then I fully expect that Great Britain will do her best to uphold the democratic rights of the people that voted. You guys seem tobthink that GREAT BRITAIN will lie, cheat, steal, act illegally, unfairly and immorally in the event of a democratic decision for self determination by Scotlands people. Even I dont think that Great Britain and Westminster is so corrupt or degraded that it will soil itself and its worldwide reputation in this way. I wonder why, if you lot think it is such a venal government and system that you are happy for it to continue and arent screaming for independence yourselves. Some of you post stuff that sounds completely bonkers.
ROFLMAO! The media running short of Project Fear scare stories from the politicians, are they?
Did he try it or not?
And so did members of the royal family if i recall, several politicians had some dodgy points of view on it as well. None if the politicians campaigning for independence today can be seriously identified as " nazi sympathisers". History is interesting, important and inform us but it isnt all there is Rheg and you are wise enough to know that. This referendum is about the FUTURE not the past.
And so did members of the royal family if i recall, several politicians had some dodgy points of view on it as well. None if the politicians campaigning for independence today can be seriously identified as " nazi sympathisers". History is interesting, important and inform us but it isnt all there is Rheg and you are wise enough to know that. This referendum is about the FUTURE not the past.
Which members of the royal family are trying to get us to vote for Scottish independence?
RagnarRocks
23-Dec-13, 15:48
And so did members of the royal family if i recall, several politicians had some dodgy points of view on it as well. None if the politicians campaigning for independence today can be seriously identified as " nazi sympathisers". History is interesting, important and inform us but it isnt all there is Rheg and you are wise enough to know that. This referendum is about the FUTURE not the past.
You're quite correct history isn't all there is and the Future is what the independence debate is about.
But the wonderful thing about history is it does give us a vast reference to how we human beings act. If you study history with anything more than a passing glance you'll see People and their emotions, feelings and how they act do not change to any large degree.
Circumstances may change we drive cars not carts nowadays. But if you look back you'll always find those who are charitable to others and those who seek just for themselves, the greedy manipulative types are all still there. So I consider it wise to weigh up all the facts a person who has Fascist inclines is not really any different to those of 80 yrs ago who held similar views. No doubt if you pricked the skin of all Politicians you'd find ideas and views you'd disapprove of, at the end of the day most politicians are self serving and seek nothing but power.
"In politics we presume that everyone who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill... we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one.” ― Plato
That would make sense if IF the SNP was run by the same people as it was run by in 1939. But - surprise surprise - it isnt. It is not the organisation it was in 1979. It is a modern mainstream political party and if you two backwards looking individuals cant see that then you are both as daft as each other. If you two feel this is a massively important issue to you. Drop me a PM - ill arrange for you to meet up with a few people who can perhaps explain to you how organisations change and develop and can discuss with you, the history of some of this and how it has led to the parties we have today- ill even cook dinner ;)
That would make sense if IF the SNP was run by the same people as it was run by in 1939. But - surprise surprise - it isnt. It is not the organisation it was in 1979. It is a modern mainstream political party and if you two backwards looking individuals cant see that then you are both as daft as each other. If you two feel this is a massively important issue to you. Drop me a PM - ill arrange for you to meet up with a few people who can perhaps explain to you how organisations change and develop and can discuss with you, the history of some of this and how it has led to the parties we have today- ill even cook dinner ;)
I disagree, the present SNP is being run by people who display the same antipathy towards the British people. It was Alex Salmond who described Westminster as a Government of Occupation.
That will be no to dinner then Rheg?
weezer 316
23-Dec-13, 17:17
ROFLMAO! The media running short of Project Fear scare stories from the politicians, are they?
Roflmao @ project fear. Ignorance is bliss.
Dont worry, its a win win for you. If its a yes you get what you want and folk liek me will be left paying for it and wil likely end up with a country that lokos identical in evey way to the UK right now after some rumptions. If its a no you will be just fine bar the massive chip on your shoulder getting bigger.
Anyway, check out Project land of milk and honey for free. They might be up your street.
RagnarRocks
23-Dec-13, 17:47
That would make sense if IF the SNP was run by the same people as it was run by in 1939. But - surprise surprise - it isnt. It is not the organisation it was in 1979. It is a modern mainstream political party and if you two backwards looking individuals cant see that then you are both as daft as each other. If you two feel this is a massively important issue to you. Drop me a PM - ill arrange for you to meet up with a few people who can perhaps explain to you how organisations change and develop and can discuss with you, the history of some of this and how it has led to the parties we have today- ill even cook dinner ;)
I do wish you wouldn't address people with differing views to yours quite so glibly.
I'm fully aware the people aren't the same but the characteristics of the people who wish to be in power changes not a jot.
It seems it is you who is unable to see that viewing our past enables us to not make the same mistakes in the future. Once again you lower the quality of debate by name calling which inclines me to believe that in person your company would be just as disagreeable.
If you wish I can introduce you to a friend of mine who is an academic and will fully explain how modern organisations may at face value be the same but the types of people and their motivations have changed hardly at all over millennia.
It is a massively important issue not just to me but to everyone who lives in Scotland, your assertion that I am unable to clearly understand the political debate and need someone to explain it is quite demeaning.
In the meantime I shall continue to source my news and current affairs from a wide range of sources listen intently to all sides of the debate and make up my own mind.
I do wish you wouldn't address people with differing views to yours quite so glibly. I'm fully aware the people aren't the same but the characteristics of the people who wish to be in power changes not a jot. It seems it is you who is unable to see that viewing our past enables us to not make the same mistakes in the future. Once again you lower the quality of debate by name calling which inclines me to believe that in person your company would be just as disagreeable. If you wish I can introduce you to a friend of mine who is an academic and will fully explain how modern organisations may at face value be the same but the types of people and their motivations have changed hardly at all over millennia. It is a massively important issue not just to me but to everyone who lives in Scotland, your assertion that I am unable to clearly understand the political debate and need someone to explain it is quite demeaning.In the meantime I shall continue to source my news and current affairs from a wide range of sources listen intently to all sides of the debate and make up my own mind.Ahhh glibness? I offered dinner!!!! Thats not glib thats hospitable. Im a good cook!!! No correct that, im a GREAT cook. Why dont you bring your friends along too. Its bound to be more fun than this. Go ooon you know you want to lol. You and rheg can come together if you want to, see i wonder sometimes whether you would all like to think im some nazi sympathising little woman who HATES britain, NO supporters and isnt interested in anything you might have to say. Im not.... Im actually quite nice, like everyone and love to cook for people. Go on lol.... It will be fun!
RagnarRocks
23-Dec-13, 18:51
Ahhh glibness? I offered dinner!!!! Thats not glib thats hospitable. Im a good cook!!! No correct that, im a GREAT cook. Why dont you bring your friends along too. Its bound to be more fun than this. Go ooon you know you want to lol. You and rheg can come together if you want to, see i wonder sometimes whether you would all like to think im some nazi sympathising little woman who HATES britain, NO supporters and isnt interested in anything you might have to say. Im not.... Im actually quite nice, like everyone and love to cook for people. Go on lol.... It will be fun!Having met real Nazis I'd be worried if your sympathies did lay in that particular discredited ideology but I'd feel the same if you called yourself a hardened Marxist or Communist. Much as your offer of a meal is particularly generous at this time of year I shall have to decline. You seem to think I've a hardened position against independence which would be incorrect.What I do have is enough scepticism to carefully check and weigh the opposing issues and read literature from both sides before coming to a decision. My main bone of contention is the lack of detail whether that be financial or political from the SNP. Surely you're not naive enough to see that the current proposition has some gaping holes in which Mr Salmond and his cohorts keep reassuring us will be negotiated but only after the fact, which in my mind means not guaranteed. So I ask is it really worth changing everything for it to stay more or less the same. The issues are more than just the trivial day to day stuff its the big issues being fudged by these so called Politicians non of whom really deserve a vote for all the honesty they give to the electorate.
History is interesting, important and inform us but it isnt all there is Rheg and you are wise enough to know that. This referendum is about the FUTURE not the past.
Yeah, you wouldn't ever hear a Nationalist harking back to history.
Ahhh glibness? I offered dinner!!!! Thats not glib thats hospitable. Im a good cook!!! No correct that, im a GREAT cook. Why dont you bring your friends along too. Its bound to be more fun than this. Go ooon you know you want to lol. You and rheg can come together if you want to, see i wonder sometimes whether you would all like to think im some nazi sympathising little woman who HATES britain, NO supporters and isnt interested in anything you might have to say. Im not.... Im actually quite nice, like everyone and love to cook for people. Go on lol.... It will be fun!
No way am I accepting Squidge's offer I have see the size of her hubbie, he swings a beeg Broadsword. [lol]
RagnarRocks
23-Dec-13, 20:44
No way am I accepting Squidge's offer I have see the size of her hubbie, he swings a beeg Broadsword. [lol]Does that mean he's 4ft tall or the broadsword is 9ft long :0)) ?
Having met real Nazis I'd be worried if your sympathies did lay in that particular discredited ideology but I'd feel the same if you called yourself a hardened Marxist or Communist. Much as your offer of a meal is particularly generous at this time of year I shall have to decline. You seem to think I've a hardened position against independence which would be incorrect.What I do have is enough scepticism to carefully check and weigh the opposing issues and read literature from both sides before coming to a decision. My main bone of contention is the lack of detail whether that be financial or political from the SNP. Surely you're not naive enough to see that the current proposition has some gaping holes in which Mr Salmond and his cohorts keep reassuring us will be negotiated but only after the fact, which in my mind means not guaranteed. So I ask is it really worth changing everything for it to stay more or less the same. The issues are more than just the trivial day to day stuff its the big issues being fudged by these so called Politicians non of whom really deserve a vote for all the honesty they give to the electorate.But you seem to assume that I haven't read or considered both sides of the debate; that somehow I and others like me have not carefully checked and weighed up the evidence too; that we don't do that all the time. Many of us do exactly that we read articles and check out information to. Perhaps the key to why we come to different conclusions has to do with the different issues that are important to each of us. You ask is it worth changing everything for it to stay more or less the same. I would say it is worth the risk for just the opportunity to change whatever we want. Neither of us is wrong Ragnar, some will agree with you some with me and many will be somewhere in between. But these things are what the debate should be about, not arguing about nazi sympathisers in 1939 or bonkers ideas that Great Britain will treat Scotland worse than it treats other countries simply because it has the audacity to excercise it's democratic rights.
No way am I accepting Squidge's offer I have see the size of her hubbie, he swings a beeg Broadsword. [lol]Technically it's two lowland claymores and a hand and a half sword.... Not all at the same time lol. And he is just a big softie under that black great helm lol
But you seem to assume that I haven't read or considered both sides of the debate; that somehow I and others like me have not carefully checked and weighed up the evidence too; that we don't do that all the time. Many of us do exactly that we read articles and check out information to. Perhaps the key to why we come to different conclusions has to do with the different issues that are important to each of us. You ask is it worth changing everything for it to stay more or less the same. I would say it is worth the risk for just the opportunity to change whatever we want. Neither of us is wrong Ragnar, some will agree with you some with me and many will be somewhere in between. But these things are what the debate should be about, not arguing about nazi sympathisers in 1939 or bonkers ideas that Great Britain will treat Scotland worse than it treats other countries simply because it has the audacity to excercise it's democratic rights.
You underestimate the depth of antipathy that (largely) the Yes campaign has created within mostly England (although the Welsh have shown some impatience too). You can't criticise a group of people unrelentingly for a number of years then expect them to be on your side at the end of the process. I'm talking about real perceptions here, not neccasarily the intent.
Let's say the vote went your way. What do you think would happen if Westminster decided to give their population a referendum on each negotiated concession? You understand that Scotland leaving the UK is something that is seen as a smash and grab? i.e. there is nothing in it for the rest of the UK.
RagnarRocks
24-Dec-13, 09:20
But you seem to assume that I haven't read or considered both sides of the debate; that somehow I and others like me have not carefully checked and weighed up the evidence too; that we don't do that all the time. Many of us do exactly that we read articles and check out information to. Perhaps the key to why we come to different conclusions has to do with the different issues that are important to each of us. You ask is it worth changing everything for it to stay more or less the same. I would say it is worth the risk for just the opportunity to change whatever we want. Neither of us is wrong Ragnar, some will agree with you some with me and many will be somewhere in between. But these things are what the debate should be about, not arguing about nazi sympathisers in 1939 or bonkers ideas that Great Britain will treat Scotland worse than it treats other countries simply because it has the audacity to excercise it's democratic rights.I tend to think that as you wish things to be fair and equitable ruk should have a vote on what Scotland gets after Independence. My guess would be the vote would end up with Scotland getting absolutely nothing they want. You view things from one side, having lived in England and down the affluent south I can tell you things aren't noticeably different just the people don't whinge and moan how the state is oppressing them and get off their backsides and do it themselves as opposed to expecting the government to do it.
Ok, i havent found the antipathy you talk about but it was September when I last tripped south and a year ago since i was south of Milton Keynes. The issue I have with both the points of view you mention is that you both assume Scotland has nothing and is nothing and therefore brings nothing to the table. You also seem to suggest that Scotland will have to do what Westminster says and that they are going to be difficult to say the least. I disagree. Scotland is not starting with nothing. There are international precdents and there is Britains reputation. Scotland will take its share of the debt for a negotiated share of the assets. Some things wont need to be negotiated - they just will BE - although they could be negotiated if Scotland decides to. So maritime law will dictate Scottish boundaries at sea and who gets the oil fields, fishing regs will dictate grounds and the Cairngorms will be Scottish. The debt however is to be negotiated and it is legal for Scotland to refuse to take the debt if the UK refuses to share the assets. If you think Scotland is and has nothing then i can understand why you think it would come away with nothing but I think you are wrong. If Scotland votes YES then westminster and holyrood will negotiate a fair settlement, without referendums for every point ragnar lol. If they dont do that then both are the losers but westminster will be the biggest loser - it will end up with all the debt and none of the oil fields.
just the people don't whinge and moan how the state is oppressing them and get off their backsides and do it themselves as opposed to expecting the government to do it.Isnt that EXACTLY what the referendum is about though ragnar.... Getting off our backsides and doing it ourselves? Creating the society WE want? Focusing on the priorities WE want to focus on and not letting the UK government decide for us? Arent those of us wanting Independence wanting exactly that? Wanting the powers to change the things that need changing and striving and campaigning for the opportunity to do EXACTLY what those in the "affluent south" want us to do. Because despite Golach's post that said the union offers "all that is good" that is not the case for many outwith the south of England and particularly in Scotland.I am Not whinging or moaning about that, im trying bloody hard to change it
Isnt that EXACTLY what the referendum is about though ragnar.... Getting off our backsides and doing it ourselves? Creating the society WE want? Focusing on the priorities WE want to focus on and not letting the UK government decide for us? Arent those of us wanting Independence wanting exactly that? Wanting the powers to change the things that need changing and striving and campaigning for the opportunity to do EXACTLY what those in the "affluent south" want us to do.
Squidge, you are only seeing one side of this coin. What of the WE of those who wish to stay in the United Kingdom and continue to stay in the society we wish, and not your rose coloured Utopia.
RagnarRocks
24-Dec-13, 10:12
I've never stated that Scotland has nothing and will be nothing that is your interpretation which probably shows more about your mindset than mine.
You presume that Scotland a population of roughly 5 million compared to RUK a population of 60 million will be better off because of oil and gas.
Can you explain how this oil and gas will sustain Scotland for the next 200 yrs when its running out and we already building storage facilities for imported US shale gas ?
Yes Scotland will have to take its share of debt if it refuses to do so then so much for using £ Sterling the Euro or any other currency as it would be a defaulter on its commitments and no one would lend you money or credit your currency as having any worth.
Coastal waters well at the current rate of depletion there won't be anything left in those waters worth having in 100yrs.
The Cairngorms can you tell me how they will keep the nation fed and watered.
So apart from negating any comments about history but revelling in your hubbies ownership of swords and helms ( historical ?) which may incline me to draw inferences about the mindset within your household I fail to see why you think its ok for Scotland to have democracy but not the rest of Ruk.
If you had taken time to read the 670 pages of the SNP propaganda you'd realise that a lot of things need to be negotiated,currency is a major thing and it isn't petulant of the ruk govt to refuse Scotland's request for use of the £ its in Ruks best interest financially.
Scotland hasn't got any special deals from Europe, Herman Van Rumpoy was very clear when he spoke about countries cessation from EU members, you start with a new country you then renegotiate entry, NATO again you start as a new member.
You can get all on your high horse and stomp your feet and demand what you like but the reality is that Negotiation doesn't mean its a done deal in anyway shape or form.
If you wish to use a quick trip south as proof there is no antithapy toward Scotland then I suggest respectfully you couldn't of asked may people.
Infact the more you type the more detached from the harsh realities of Independence you sound.But let us not forget that sectarianism is alive and kicking in two parts of the Uk,N.I and Scotland and you think its healthy to break up the country more when there are significant minorities who still can get past civilised behaviour.
Ok, i havent found the antipathy you talk about but it was September when I last tripped south and a year ago since i was south of Milton Keynes. The issue I have with both the points of view you mention is that you both assume Scotland has nothing and is nothing and therefore brings nothing to the table. You also seem to suggest that Scotland will have to do what Westminster says and that they are going to be difficult to say the least. I disagree. Scotland is not starting with nothing. There are international precdents and there is Britains reputation. Scotland will take its share of the debt for a negotiated share of the assets. Some things wont need to be negotiated - they just will BE - although they could be negotiated if Scotland decides to. So maritime law will dictate Scottish boundaries at sea and who gets the oil fields, fishing regs will dictate grounds and the Cairngorms will be Scottish. The debt however is to be negotiated and it is legal for Scotland to refuse to take the debt if the UK refuses to share the assets. If you think Scotland is and has nothing then i can understand why you think it would come away with nothing but I think you are wrong. If Scotland votes YES then westminster and holyrood will negotiate a fair settlement, without referendums for every point ragnar lol. If they dont do that then both are the losers but westminster will be the biggest loser - it will end up with all the debt and none of the oil fields.
I agree with RR, I'm finding people I talk to in England very angry at the Scots. Typical attitude is; "say yes and .... off!"
I get a hard time south of the border just for living in Scotland and I am English :eek:
That is why I am angry, the damage done will take years if not generations to fix after the No vote.
And anyway, the debt applied to The pop. of Scotland would be insignificant to the UK, very significant to Scotland. Not a strong negotiating position at all. I still have yet to see anyone agree with the yes campaign that oil is Scotland's as a fact.
So what else?
RagnarRocks
24-Dec-13, 10:50
I agree with RR, I'm finding people I talk to in England very angry at the Scots. Typical attitude is; "say yes and .... off!"The debt applied to The pop. of Scotland will be insignificant to the UK, very significant to Scotland. Not a strong negotiating position at all. I still have yet to see anyone agree with the yes campaign that oil is Scotland's as a fact. So what else?
Well Ducati would you disagree with someone whose hubby wears a big helmet and likes to play with peedie sharp things :0))
Maybe they think if we vote no they can run at the border with their claymores wiggle their bums and everything will be ok :0))
Well Ducati would you disagree with someone whose hubby wears a big helmet and likes to play with peedie sharp things :0))
Maybe they think if we vote no they can run at the border with their claymores wiggle their bums and everything will be ok :0))
It probably would be, after a brief discussion. I think we should settle this by DC and AS on the field of er... crocket?
not letting the UK government decide for us?
The UK Government is our government, just as much as those loonies in Holyrood would ever be.
RagnarRocks
24-Dec-13, 12:53
It probably would be, after a brief discussion. I think we should settle this by DC and AS on the field of er... crocket?Are you sure you don't mean croquet ? With a mad hatter and mock turtle as arbitrators would make sense and fuel their fantasies a bit more :0))
Ok Children lol..... Its Christmas eve and you are entitled to play lol.
Ragnar lol the ownership of said weapons and helms is because we take part in historical education and entertainment for your pleasure and that of others who watch the WORK that we do. Those are items for our work not for fun and games or silly posturing. we need those items to do the job we do. Golach is well aware of the stuff we do and his was a friendly wee tease based on that knowledge. You, however assumed something else.... Im not sure what but there you go.
Golach, absolutely you have your opinion and thats fine. I do not suggest that you, or others are stupid or ignorant or naive, or unworldly, or a fantasist, or incapable of seeing the error of your ways. And yet those are allegations which are levelled at me and others who support independencee.
Ragnar says that I am detatched from reality but I suggest it is exactly because I have my feet firmly planted in the realities of life here today for many people rather than the realities of the "affluent south" that I want an independent scotland. I am not stupid ignorant or naive. I support independence because it offers the opportunity to grow, develop and change our society to make it a better and fairer place to live for everyone who lives in Scotland. Why do you and others support the union? Because it offers everything that is good as Golach said?
Tell that to the 600 000 relying on foodbanks, or the carers who have to fight for every mortal thing they get, or the women who cant work cos they cant afford childcare, or those waiting for their appeal for ESA - sitting worrying about it whilst they get their chemotherapy or dialysis.
I will say again
Isnt that EXACTLY what the referendum is about though ragnar.... Getting off our backsides and doing it ourselves? Creating the society WE want? Focusing on the priorities WE want to focus on and not letting the UK government decide for us? Arent those of us wanting Independence wanting exactly that? Wanting the powers to change the things that need changing and striving and campaigning for the opportunity to do EXACTLY what those in the "affluent south" want us to do. Because despite Golach's post that said the union offers "all that is good" that is not the case for many outwith the south of England and particularly in Scotland.I am Not whinging or moaning about that, im trying bloody hard to change it
Thats not idealistic- its pragmatic. We have to take the steps we can to deal with the issues that are important or priorities for each of us. You choose why you want to keep the union.... Thats your choice based on your priorities. It does not make you or any of you fools. Neither does my view make me a fool. So, like I say, dinner is offered and we shall see. Now my turkey is in the oven so I have to go be a mum, cook and santa lol .... No time for politics Merry Christmas everyone. Ill see you in the New year.
RagnarRocks
24-Dec-13, 17:54
Toys out the pram.
Turkey still in Holyrood.
Dressing up box at squidges apparently :0))
Merry Christmas
Thats not idealistic- its pragmatic.
What is pragmatic is enjoying factors of scale. As part of the UK, we have a diplomatic service whose cost is shared amongst 60,000,000 people. After independence that tax burden is set to rise by 800%
Well, less than a year to go folks before we get the vote that the majority of us didn't want. I'm looking forward to the debates to come, the facts and logic telling us we'd be better off abandoning the UK in favour of er what was it again?
RagnarRocks
28-Dec-13, 20:06
Well, less than a year to go folks before we get the vote that the majority of us didn't want. I'm looking forward to the debates to come, the facts and logic telling us we'd be better of abandoning the UK in favour of er what was it again?A Shrubbery unless I'm confused
billmoseley
30-Dec-13, 12:57
Are we Independent yet or have i awoke from my hibernation too soon?
Ps what does Tescos open?
Are we Independent yet......
Yes, although it depends whom you mean by "we."
Better Out Than In
20-Jan-14, 16:53
Phew - been away for a bit so not kept up. My question soon got lost. When working abroad at employer's request they have had to carry the cost of currency conversion. I guess if independence happens then my now little GB employer will want to pay into my account in little GB pounds and I will have to suffer the cost of currency conversion. Even if Scotland adopts to carry on separately with £ a Scottish £ will likely be worth a lot less than little GB £ (at least for near term).Of course it might go other way and Scotland could adopt the Euro (if allowed) and value could increase - but I would rather that what I earn is in my control than based on international currency exchange.
As a person who sits on the fence as far as voting for Scottish independence is concerned, could someone please clear something up for me.
population of Scotland = 5,295,000.
Persons in employment = 2,536,000. and I'm guessing many of those are on a minimum wage and another 23.4% is in the public sector.
That leaves 4,759,000 supported by the tax payer, whether it be child benefit, pensions, or other benefits and that's not counting family tax credit. Also, not counting the 593,424 government paid workers.
Where are the cuts going to be made?
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