Free Marine A Petition

[wavy davy]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/56810

Whatever happens he won't be freed, but support here will hopefully help his appeal against a 10 year sentence

[Alice in Blunderland]

Is this the marine who killed an injured man?

[mi16]

Yes the one who knew exactly what he was doing. Discussed it with his co workers then murdered the guy.All while on the queens business.

[orkneycadian]

Could you reduce the number of syllables in the thread title? It doesn't quite fit into the song!

"Free Marine A Campaign" would work.

[KnowItAll]

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[mi16]

Why do we still refer to Alexander Blackman as "Marine A" firstly his name is in the public doman, secondly he is not a marine.
He is a convicted murderer who has had a Dishonourable Discharge from the Royal Marines.
He is a disgrace to the armed forces of this country.

[golach]

I feel the Marine was just a soldier doing his job, killing taliban terrorists, and should be set free.
Orgers make more noise about the killing a pig in Reay, what the marine did was to put the terrorist out of his misery, cheaply and efficiently.

[mi16]

I feel the Marine was just a soldier doing his job, killing taliban terrorists, and should be set free.
Orgers make more noise about the killing a pig in Reay, what the marine did was to put the terrorist out of his misery, cheaply and efficiently.

Not according to his peers who found him guilty.
He killed the man in cold blood, dress it any way you wish but that is how it is.

[cptdodger]

I feel the Marine was just a soldier doing his job, killing taliban terrorists, and should be set free.

With respect Golach, did you hear the tape of the men talking before he shot the man? I have said this on another thread, but until I heard it, I would have probably felt the same, as in they had lost comrades, annoyed at that, one of them lost their temper and shot the man, after what the Armed Forces face every day out there, I could understand that. However, I listened to that tape (they could'nt show the video on tv, but I think the Jury saw it) and they were calmly discussing what they were going to do and laughing about it, presumably it was Alexander Blackman that told the other men that what he was going to do would be in contravention of the Geneva Convention. I have never been in the Armed Forces, I do respect and support them, but I cannot condone what that man did, and obviously neither could the people that found him guilty.

[m.i.sinclair]

These are representative of the people your 'Help for Heroes' nonsense supports. If they weren't in the army they'd be in borstal or prison anyway.

[KnowItAll]

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[golach]

With respect Golach, did you hear the tape of the men talking before he shot the man? I have said this on another thread, but until I heard it, I would have probably felt the same, as in they had lost comrades, annoyed at that, one of them lost their temper and shot the man, after what the Armed Forces face every day out there, I could understand that. However, I listened to that tape (they could'nt show the video on tv, but I think the Jury saw it) and they were calmly discussing what they were going to do and laughing about it, presumably it was Alexander Blackman that told the other men that what he was going to do would be in contravention of the Geneva Convention. I have never been in the Armed Forces, I do respect and support them, but I cannot condone what that man did, and obviously neither could the people that found him guilty.

50+ Royal Marines have been killed by the Taliban already, I dont see anyone here condeming the Taliban for not abiding to the Geneva conventions. Yes cptdodger I did hear the tape, it made not one bit of difference to me, I still support Sgt Blackman, he was doing his job, killing terrorists., and he did it well. This should never have come to a court, where all the pinko liberals jump on the bandwagon. I am not a lone voice in this issue, over 100,000 like me signed the petition to cut his sentence up to now.

[Mrs Bradey]

I feel the Marine was just a soldier doing his job, killing taliban terrorists, and what the marine did was to put the terrorist out of his misery, cheaply and efficiently. is that how you would feel if the taliban captured an injured marine, and subsequently executed him on the spot whilst laughing and joking with his taliban colleagues? and yes we all know the taliban like to torture and maime prisoners! but our soldiers are well trained and disciplined and generally lead by example. I am very proud of our armed forces and feel the act committed by this marine and the publicity surrounding it has not done our forces any favours. I think he is very lucky to have received a 10yr sentence.

[cptdodger]

These are representative of the people your 'Help for Heroes' nonsense supports. If they weren't in the army they'd be in borstal or prison anyway.

What utter, utter rubbish. Whether I agree with the Armed Forces being in Afghanistan or not, I have the choice to do that, they do not. These people sign up to serve their Queen and Country, and have NO choice as to where they are sent. This has cost a lot of men and women their lives, which they knew could happen when they signed up, but still did it anyway. THAT alone is bravery, because I know I could not do it. That was one man, out of thousands, who for whatever reason (only he knows) decided to take the wrong action, which he is rightly paying for now. I hold The British Armed Forces in high esteem, and that will not diminish because of one mans actions. That is a disgraceful comment to make.

[Big Gaz]

These are representative of the people your 'Help for Heroes' nonsense supports. If they weren't in the army they'd be in borstal or prison anyway.

I guess giving to charity to help those who fought to keep this country safe and from invasion and through no fault of their own are now in need, is beyond you then?
Did you join Caithness.org to have real, meaningful discussions or just to troll and incite argument? Or did you join up because you have no friends left to abuse due to your nasty and selfish demeanour? because you sound so bitter and cold that you are no doubt probably wrapped up in a double duvet and sat in front of a candle for heat.

I won't wish you a merry xmas nor a happy new year, instead i will donate £10 to the help for heroes charity in your name!

[cptdodger]

50+ Royal Marines have been killed by the Taliban already, I dont see anyone here condeming the Taliban for not abiding to the Geneva conventions. Yes cptdodger I did hear the tape, it made not one bit of difference to me, I still support Sgt Blackman, he was doing his job, killing terrorists., and he did it well. This should never have come to a civilian court, where all the pinko liberals jump on the bandwagon. I am not a lone voice in this issue, over 100,000 like me signed the petition to cut his sentence up to now.

Of course, that's your opinion, which you are entitled to. I'm afraid listening to that tape, made me feel quite ill, but that's just me. I personally think the Taliban are inhuman, I could elaborate, but I would get banned from here. Just because I think it's right that Alexander Blackman is jailed for his actions, does not mean that I support the taliban in any way shape or form. However, if you are condoning his actions, then what separates our Armed Forces from them? The Geneva Convention, which I do'nt think the Taliban have exactly have signed up to. Also, It was a Court Martial made up of seven officers and warrant officers, that found him guilty, not civilians.

[rob1]

What that marine did was wrong, and he knew it. That taliban man was no longer a threat to those guys and they could and should have captured him and had him tried as per due process, but he decided to act as judge, jury and executioner. Being stressed and upset is no excuss for murder. Just because the taliban would do the same to our troops is no excuss for murder. He brings shame on the marines, he brings shame on the armed forces and he brings shame on the UK. This is not just a physical war, but it is also a polictical war and one where we must be seen to take the moral high ground in this situation. Quite frankly, I think he should be counting his lucky stars that he could be out in 10 years.

[mi16]

When the insurgent became incapacitated by the Apache he stopped being the enemy and became a POW.
When Blackman pulled the trigger on the insurgent he stopped being a Royal Marine and became a murderer.

[KnowItAll]

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[Mrs Bradey]

When the insurgent became incapacitated by the Apache he stopped being the enemy and became a POW.When Blackman pulled the trigger on the insurgent he stopped being a Royal Marine and became a murderer. exactly! could not put it any better myself.

[RagnarRocks]

And if you had bother to read all the facts you'd of realised the insurgent had wounds so severe that he wouldn't of made it any way so sounds more like they put him out of his misery rather than executed him,unless that is you consider having half your rib cage opened up and a large wounds over the entirety of your body compatable with a non life threatening injury. I suspect most of the people condemning him have never served in the forces never seen combat or even seen what these insurgents do to our troops very easy to sit in your nice cosy homes and condemn them. But in a few years when they start hitting targets in this country and civilians become the target you'll hear them scream for more security. Why don't you condemn the animals that executed lee rigby they have no excuses whatsoever. Those are people far more worthy of condemnation.

[KnowItAll]

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[rob1]

And if you had bother to read all the facts you'd of realised the insurgent had wounds so severe that he wouldn't of made it any way so sounds more like they put him out of his misery rather than executed him,unless that is you consider having half your rib cage opened up and a large wounds over the entirety of your body compatable with a non life threatening injury. I suspect most of the people condemning him have never served in the forces never seen combat or even seen what these insurgents do to our troops very easy to sit in your nice cosy homes and condemn them. But in a few years when they start hitting targets in this country and civilians become the target you'll hear them scream for more security. Why don't you condemn the animals that executed lee rigby they have no excuses whatsoever. Those are people far more worthy of condemnation.

Blackman was a marine, not a doctor and therefore does not have the skills or qualifications to decided whether he was going to live or not. He should have called in proper medical care, which is what he is trained and ordered to do not put a bullet in him. the taliban man may well have died of his wounds even before getting medical treatment. Blackman did not shoot the taliban to put him out of misery, he shot him becasue he was angry and could do it. It is acts like what Blackman did the get young muslim men so angry about what happens in muslim countries that they turn to extremism. Blackman was sent there along with many others to try and get rid of the taliban, protect locals and to show local that they there for their benifit. If our soldiers go around putting bullets in injured men that pose little threat for the fun of it, than they are no better than the taliban and if you support that action then you are also no better than the taliban. Blackman make me ashamed to be British.

[RagnarRocks]

And considering the length of service and previous good conduct of the marine in question and the fact he had been brutalised by war whilst it may be easy to sit and condemn any of our servicemen the attitude of some people makes me ashamed to be British or to have wasted my time serving in her majesties forces. It won't be until this country is subjected to sharia law that the likes of the Taliban and such like terrorists will be happy. I hope you're all so forthright the next time there is an outrage in this country. I'm wondering how many of you have ever seen a man blown apart by a terrorist bomb or seen someone with 65% burns screaming for their mother or limbs hanging off or a young man with a sucking wound to the chest. Until you have experienced such situations I respectfully suggest you keep your highbrow opinions to yourself because the reality is you haven't a clue how you'd respond.

[RagnarRocks]

Most of what you say is true.However two wrongs never have and never will make a right. What Blackman did was against all the principles for which our troops are fighting, if what he did is right then why on earth did we ever get involved in trying to make afghanistan into a country in which the rule of law might hopefully hold sway.Ask Tony Blair why we got involved and the legalities of the issues surrounding any of the conflicts he entered into. A fine upstanding socialist now making millions whilst decent honourable men are subjected to the inhumanities of the wars he started dying being wounded and mentally shattered beyond repair and one now hung out to dry so that the publics conscience can be salved by his destruction and putting his whole family at risk. Still noting not one condemnation of the murderers of Lee Rigby and how shocked you are by that.

[shazzap]

He should be freed. The Taliban always follow the rules, don't they. NOT

[RagnarRocks]

Blackman was a marine, not a doctor and therefore does not have the skills or qualifications to decided whether he was going to live or not. He should have called in proper medical care, which is what he is trained and ordered to do not put a bullet in him. the taliban man may well have died of his wounds even before getting medical treatment. Blackman did not shoot the taliban to put him out of misery, he shot him becasue he was angry and could do it. It is acts like what Blackman did the get young muslim men so angry about what happens in muslim countries that they turn to extremism. Blackman was sent there along with many others to try and get rid of the taliban, protect locals and to show local that they there for their benifit. If our soldiers go around putting bullets in injured men that pose little threat for the fun of it, than they are no better than the taliban and if you support that action then you are also no better than the taliban. Blackman make me ashamed to be British.I would also suggest you don't have to be a qualified doctor or field medic to see when someone is so ripped apart by heavy weapons fire that they won't survive let alone taking into account that as long as the insurgent drew a breath his one goal would be to kill a British Serviceman. They cannot be trusted even when dying or would you rather another servicemen dies trying to aid him.

[Mrs Bradey]

I would also suggest you don't have to be a qualified doctor or field medic to see when someone is so ripped apart by heavy weapons fire that they won't survive let alone taking into account that as long as the insurgent drew a breath his one goal would be to kill a British Serviceman. They cannot be trusted even when dying or would you rather another servicemen dies trying to aid him. so all hospital surgeons should carry side arms so that when tommy the teenage tosspot crashes his gti fastasphuk into a tree he can be dispatched quickly! or better still perhaps the fire brigade should be the ones tooled up!!

[squidge]

And considering the length of service and previous good conduct of the marine in question and the fact he had been brutalised by war whilst it may be easy to sit and condemn any of our servicemen the attitude of some people makes me ashamed to be British or to have wasted my time serving in her majesties forces. It won't be until this country is subjected to sharia law that the likes of the Taliban and such like terrorists will be happy. I hope you're all so forthright the next time there is an outrage in this country. I'm wondering how many of you have ever seen a man blown apart by a terrorist bomb or seen someone with 65% burns screaming for their mother or limbs hanging off or a young man with a sucking wound to the chest. Until you have experienced such situations I respectfully suggest you keep your highbrow opinions to yourself because the reality is you haven't a clue how you'd respond.

I am sorry that you have witnessed this sort of thing Ragnar and I am grateful that people like you did and ARe putting their lives on the line to serve their country. The facts remain that this soldier killed the man because he could. Not because he posed a threat to his or his comrades safety; Not because he posed a threat to civilians or security; he knew fine he shouldnt be doing it but he did it anyway. He killed a man because he could. That is not the act of a soldier. It is the act of a murderer.

I have several close friends who are serving soldiers and airmen and not one of them NOT A SINGLE ONE condones his behaviour.

[mi16]

I could be wrong here but I think there was widespread condemnation and horror at the murder of Lee Rigby, the London bomings, the Glasgow International attack and just about every other attack on out nation.
Blackmans case is new and very much in the public eye at the minute and the support for Blackamn sems to stir debate.
A thread of all posting the same condemnation of the Rigby killers woudl fade out rather quickly, but as long as there are clowns backing Blackmans actions then this debate will rage on.
I can totally see why he did it, but the fact remains that he was wrong to do it and he deserves every minute of his 10 years at Her Majestys pleasure.

[cptdodger]

I'm wondering how many of you have ever seen a man blown apart by a terrorist bomb. Until you have experienced such situations I respectfully suggest you keep your highbrow opinions to yourself because the reality is you haven't a clue how you'd respond.

Well I have - On the 17th of December 1983. I am not - and never have been in the military, that atrocity was just one of many that happened on "home soil". I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know how I responded, I buried it, even today my parents have no idea I was caught up in that, because I did'nt want to worry them. Would I have done the same as Alexander Blackman if I had the chance - certainly not, I value my freedom and self respect too much to lower myself to their level. Do not assume just because people have not been in the military they have not witnessed atrocities.

[KnowItAll]

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[billmoseley]

When the insurgent became incapacitated by the Apache he stopped being the enemy and became a POW.
When Blackman pulled the trigger on the insurgent he stopped being a Royal Marine and became a murderer.
very well said. When you enemy is defeated and injured you should show him compassion

[RagnarRocks]

Excuse me but with a service number 2462 you wouldn't of been in at the time of the Falklands conflict.

[RagnarRocks]

And do tell who you served with in NI during what years and regiments you where attached too I'm quite familiar with the comings and goings during the 80s

[RagnarRocks]

Here's a quote from a friend who has done a few tours "He only made one mistake in my eyes it was recorded"I've also got quite a few friends wanting to know who you where with when you did the walk ?

[RagnarRocks]

For those of you interested http://news.sky.com/story/1165291/marine-afghanistan-murder-audio-releasedThose are extracts from marine c's notes the wounds do not sound survivable

[gerry4]

He should be freed. The Taliban always follow the rules, don't they. NOT

Two wrongs don't make a right. We have taken the moral high ground on this and so if we just shot anyone then why are we there. Mind we do don't we. How many innocent people have been killed by our drones?

[KnowItAll]

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[RagnarRocks]

so if you are so clever when would 2462 have joined up...? And that's not mine, but it's a good way of smoking out anyone that knows what they are talking about...And yes I was there.Quite simple my service number is 2460 so I joined before you. You claimed to have served in the Falklands and Northern Ireland but I'm only 50 in a previous thread you claim to have spent 34 years in insurance so it doesn't really add up.

[shazzap]

Two wrongs don't make a right. We have taken the moral high ground on this and so if we just shot anyone then why are we there. Mind we do don't we. How many innocent people have been killed by our drones? That is my opinion, which i am entitled to. As you and all the other participants on this thread are entitled to theirs.

[RagnarRocks]

Noted you haven't said who you served with on mount tumbledown it wouldn't of been 42 cdo

[mi16]

For those of you interested http://news.sky.com/story/1165291/marine-afghanistan-murder-audio-releasedThose are extracts from marine c's notes the wounds do not sound survivable So that gives Blackman the right to play god then, no, I don't think so.Had he come across a potentially fatally wounded afghan farmer would it be ok in your book to kill him?

[RagnarRocks]

Well I have - On the 17th of December 1983. I am not - and never have been in the military, that atrocity was just one of many that happened on "home soil". I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know how I responded, I buried it, even today my parents have no idea I was caught up in that, because I did'nt want to worry them. Would I have done the same as Alexander Blackman if I had the chance - certainly not, I value my freedom and self respect too much to lower myself to their level. Do not assume just because people have not been in the military they have not witnessed atrocities.I never make that assumption Cpt but have you endured it day in day out for months. I agree once is bad enough multiple times your perspective starts to change not straight away but a little at a time your humanity gets eaten away.

[mi16]

I never make that assumption Cpt but have you endured it day in day out for months. I agree once is bad enough multiple times your perspective starts to change not straight away but a little at a time your humanity gets eaten away.as the judge said, its no excuse for murder. It was cold calculated and pre meditated

[RagnarRocks]

So that gives Blackman the right to play god then, no, I don't think so.Had he come across a potentially fatally wounded afghan farmer would it be ok in your book to kill him?Well again a farmer is a completely different set of circumstances do farmers have ak 47s hand grenades and get into a firefight with you..I think not so try and keep it in context .

[cptdodger]

I never make that assumption Cpt but have you endured it day in day out for months. I agree once is bad enough multiple times your perspective starts to change not straight away but a little at a time your humanity gets eaten away. As I said, I am not and never have been a member of any Armed Forces. I did not sign up for that. I just went to get my six month old daughter (at the time) her Christmas presents. I think on a previous post you said you were 50, which is the same age as me, so you would have, like me grown up watching the "troubles" in Northern Ireland on the news and so on. So when you joined up you must have had an idea what you could be facing, surely they must have tried to prepare you for that. Me, I was just walking down a street in London, the only thing that saved me from further injury was, the poor soul in front of me that took the whole force of the blast. I had no training for that, I had no idea how to deal with that. You had your comrades that had seen and dealt with what you had seen and dealt with, you knew and understood what each other had gone through. I had nobody that understood what I had been through that day to talk too so I did'nt. Trust me, my perspective changed completely that day.

[mi16]

Well again a farmer is a completely different set of circumstances do farmers have ak 47s hand grenades and get into a firefight with you..I think not so try and keep it in context .at the time of the killing the insurgent was unarmed and as you said, incapacitated

[RagnarRocks]

as the judge said, its no excuse for murder. It was cold calculated and pre meditatedAnd as the psychiatrist said sgt Blackman was in no doubt suffering some form of trauma at the time so deserved a reduced sentence weigh up the whole story no just sitting there like some little child add consideration as to what Sgt Blackman had endured leading up to the event daily firefights loosing comrades having their body parts hung in trees ieds and 50 c heat surely enough to allow for some latitude

[mi16]

And as the psychiatrist said sgt Blackman was in no doubt suffering some form of trauma at the time so deserved a reduced sentence weigh up the whole story no just sitting there like some little child add consideration as to what Sgt Blackman had endured leading up to the event daily firefights loosing comrades having their body parts hung in trees ieds and 50 c heat surely enough to allow for some latitude I believe the judge made reference to Blackman's mental state and environment, the followed up by stating that his peers can do their jobs without resorting to murder so he should also. I don't see a minimum 10 years as being excessive for murder.

[RagnarRocks]

I did three tours of a Northern Ireland during the 80s one during maggies election campaign and to be very honest they train you to do your job there aren't people sitting telling you what to expect or how to cope with it you just get on and roll with it or you did back then. When I came out of hospital there was no psychiatrist talking to me I got healed up and reported back for duty and life carried on. So with all due respect don't think that soldiers back then had lots of people holding their hands because they may do now but not then.

[cptdodger]

I did three tours of a Northern Ireland during the 80s one during maggies election campaign and to be very honest they train you to do your job there aren't people sitting telling you what to expect or how to cope with it you just get on and roll with it or you did back then. When I came out of hospital there was no psychiatrist talking to me I got healed up and reported back for duty and life carried on. So with all due respect don't think that soldiers back then had lots of people holding their hands because they may do now but not then. And I'm sure they did'nt, what I was saying was, you must have seen on the news and read in the newspapers how bad it was in Northern Ireland before being sent on a tour there. None of what has been said on here has diminished the respect I have for the Forces. And I certainly do not agree with the people that say he has brought shame on his unit, country and the whole of The Armed Forces, you (not you) cannot tar everybody else with the same brush. This is just my opinion, but he made a bad decision that day, which I believe he now regrets. And you are right I have not see that sort of thing everyday, once was horrific enough, and that will live with me forever. But, as I pointed out to Golach (I think) it was'nt us (civilians) that found him guilty, it was people that had been in his position that did that.

[Kevin Milkins]

What I find more disturbing about this case is that a decision was made to name Marine A and put his family at risk to other extreme organisations.

[RagnarRocks]

I agree he made a bad call and no doubt he does regret it but I prefer to weigh up his distinguished career before hand and what he had been through during that tour the Taliban do not fight like regular soldiers they hold no rules nothing for them is against the rules I don't deny what he did was wrong but I think considering the mitigating circumstances 10 yrs was harsh the reality is the military had to make an example of him because the video clip had been made public and played out by the media beforehand. I have no sympathies for the insurgent and from reading marine c's notes it sounded as though the insurgent wouldn't of drawn to many breathes one way or the other. I also think that naming him was wrong as he now has a target stuck on his and his families head for every half cocked nut case .I think a lot of people mistake the insurgents with some kind of political objective which can be reasoned and debated with, they don't its purely fundamentalist Islam all the way if they die its no big deal its for a cause , and sadly that cause is so anti anything western they just take the whole trial as a sign of weakness on our part and it just adds fuel to their fire. In that part of the world they understand force and strong men the concept of democracy and political ideals are lost on the majority of them. These people aren't like the IRA or ANC they have one agenda only the islamification of everyone and sharia law imposed on everyone . It won't go away or be passified it will just grow until its tendrils eventually touch you or your children or their children's lives. It's a mindset that considers a few hundred years as nothing for the greater good. They still talk of the crusades as if they where yesterday and that is scarey.They've seen off the Russians the Americans they now deliver terror across the Middle East regimes tumble they take over into Europe our security services work tirelessly to thwart their attacks yet everyone seems to think jailing one Marine will pacify them and show them how good we are. In reality they just laugh at us and call us weak.

[cptdodger]

I agree, he should never have been named - ever. As we have seen in the past with 7/7 in 2005 (may they Rest In Peace) there are enough home grown terrorists that would delight in targeting his family. You might be right, if this trial was played out just to appease the taliban, then they are wasting their time. These "people" have not evolved enough to understand, rightly or wrongly we have standards that must be adhered to. However, I did find this when I googled The Geneva Convention, I think the President it is referring to is George W Bush -

STATUS OF TALIBAN FORCES

UNDER ARTICLE 4 OF
THE THIRD GENEVA CONVENTION OF 1949
The President has reasonable factual grounds to
determine that no members of the Taliban
militia are entitled to prisoner of war status under Ar
ticle 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention (III) Relative
to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
February 7, 2002 - That from this document - http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/olc/taliban.pdf

I have'nt read it all certainly, but I thought if we (UK) went to war, it was us that had to follow the Geneva Convention and treat every POW or injured person the same, but going by that document I might be wrong.

[Big Gaz]

Well i'm not biting my tongue any longer. This is a farcical thread and should never have been started!




CFN 246230365 no name, ex-REME

ahem....1 digit too many there btw

from 24587441 CFN REME. 03 platoon, Arborfield, April 1983
the English lads that signed up at that time were 2464xxxx

The reason i signed up was the Falklands conflict and losing a best mate there but the powers that be decided with my aptitude and intelligence that i would be better suited as a craftsman rather than an infantryman. I don't blow my own horn, i did o.k., had my fair share of R.O.P.'s during basic training as you do when you are a stupid 18 yr old with mates that lead you astray and i didn't serve for long due to ill health but i know the crack and i can certainly say that there are so many bullshitters on this forum and not all were in the armed forces!

As for what Blackman did, i would have done exactly the same in that situation, murder or not i wouldn't have given a monkeys because at the end of the day, he was in a firefight and the taliban was purely there to kill him. Unless any of you have actually fired in anger at another human being that was firing back at you, irrespective of whoever initiated the firefight then hold your tongue!

As for soldier Lee Rigby, he certainly didn't deserve what happened to him and may he rest in peace but this attack on home soil is exactly why the British armed forces are out there doing their stressful, dangerous and life-threatening job, 24/7/365. Just remember, if it wasn't for the efforts of our armed forces, it might be YOU next!

[m.i.sinclair]

Just remember, if it wasn't for the efforts of our armed forces, it might be YOU next!

Typical scaremongering, propagandist claptrap. The armed forces are mostly a handy way of keeping undesirables off our streets.

Anyway, conscription is long gone - people join the armed forces through choice. Their career choice, so they should like it or lump it.

[Big Gaz]

Typical scaremongering, propagandist claptrap. The armed forces are mostly a handy way of keeping undesirables off our streets.

Anyway, conscription is long gone - people join the armed forces through choice. Their career choice, so they should like it or lump it.

So i'm an undesirable eh? well i was going to swear and say **** *** but i like the org AND RESPECT THE OTHER USERS! something you seem to lack. As for scaremongering, propagandist claptrap, i'm surprised you could spell all that in one go....use an Oxford did you? better still, nip round poundstretchers and buy yourself a pocket size pack of kleenex, thats about all you'll ever need.

[wavy davy]

Well i'm not biting my tongue any longer. This is a farcical thread and should never have been started!

I started the thread to let anyone who cared know that there is a lever to get Blackman's sentence reduced. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

[mi16]

As for what Blackman did, i would have done exactly the same in that situation, murder or not i wouldn't have given a monkeys!That is concerning

[mi16]

I agree he made a bad call and no doubt he does regret it but I prefer to weigh up his distinguished career before hand .Harold shipman had a distinguished career before outed as a serial killer.Fred Goodwin had a distinguished career before he ruined our economy.

[RagnarRocks]

Harold shipman had a distinguished career before outed as a serial killer.Fred Goodwin had a distinguished career before he ruined our economy.Once again M16 you seem unable to distinguish the difference between a serial killer and corrupt greedy businessman and a serviceman who stepped over the line once killing a man who had previously been trying to kill him. Now if you can't distinguish the difference for the sake of justice never serve on a jury.

[Mrs Bradey]

I did three tours of a Northern Ireland during the 80s one during maggies election campaign and to be very honest they train you to do your job there aren't people sitting telling you what to expect or how to cope with it you just get on and roll with it or you did back then. When I came out of hospital there was no psychiatrist talking to me I got healed up and reported back for duty and life carried on. So with all due respect don't think that soldiers back then had lots of people holding their hands because they may do now but not then. that's the point you went through all that , returned to duty , and presumably did not kill any Irish terrorists once in custody ! well Blackman did and it is illegal.

[mi16]

Once again M16 you seem unable to distinguish the difference between a serial killer and corrupt greedy businessman and a serviceman who stepped over the line once killing a man who had previously been trying to kill him. Now if you can't distinguish the difference for the sake of justice never serve on a jury. My point is that they all had good records in their careers before coming unstuck.Where murder is concerned, previous good behaviour is out the window.He murdered him and he deserves every minute of the 10 stretch.
You say he stepped over the line once, do you know this for sure?

[Big Gaz]

I started the thread to let anyone who cared know that there is a lever to get Blackman's sentence reduced. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

If its the end of the story then lock the thread. Simple!

[Big Gaz]

That is concerning

I don't care if you think it is concerning or not. have you lost a good mate or been at the opposite end of a gun held by a crazed, extremist lunatic hell-bent on your destruction? No i didn't think so.

[Mrs Bradey]

Once again M16 you seem unable to distinguish the difference between a serial killer and corrupt greedy businessman and a serviceman who stepped over the line once killing a man who had previously been trying to kill him. Now if you can't distinguish the difference for the sake of justice never serve on a jury. I'm sure there are many people serving life sentences for "one off" crimes, whom previously have led respectable lives and with no previous criminal record! should they be released? most persons sentenced to life will be serving a 25 year sentence, although may be released early for good behaviour.

[golach]

You say he stepped over the line once, do you know this for sure?

Do you know different? Stick to what you know most, the pigs in Reay and leave our Royal Marines allone

[Mrs Bradey]

why does everyone have to prove themselves before expressing their opinion? I have never experienced warfare of any kind, nor have I ever been a member of the armed forces. I have nursed a close friend who returned from service in the RN in the 80's. Do I qualify to have an opinion? or should I just shut up?

[mi16]

Do you know different? Stick to what you know most, the pigs in Reay and leave our Royal Marines alloneI don't think there are any pigs in reay golach.

[Big Gaz]

why does everyone have to prove themselves before expressing their opinion? I have never experienced warfare of any kind, nor have I ever been a member of the armed forces. I have nursed a close friend who returned from service in the RN in the 80's. Do I qualify to have an opinion? or should I just shut up?

Its not that you have to prove yourself or have to qualify to have an opinion, quite the opposite. Free speech on here doesn't seem to be wanted and it's just that when something is said on here, then it's taken as a lie by a select few who continuously nit-pick and keep the thread going just for their own personal benefit. I would call them trolls, but that is just insulting trolls

[wavy davy]

If its the end of the story then lock the thread. Simple!

First of all you said that the thread should never have been started. I told you why I started it. Then you tell me I should lock the thread but you keep posting.

There is a user initiated process available when you have a problem with a thread. I suggest that you use it. Think index finger, I know I am.

[RagnarRocks]

Well as everyone seems to have such an issue with what happens in combat maybe our Lords and Masters should allow standard rules of engagement out in Afghanistan then our lads could do their jobs properly instead of all this pussyfooting around. Way to much political interference and media coverage if you want to send combat troops out to assorted parts of the world let them engage the enemy instead of all these policing actions. If we had gone out to win a war the Taliban would be long gone from Afghanistan by now. But I doubt orgers would be comfortable with our lads being sent out on search and destroy missions. Or maybe some of them would prefer to go out as UN observers and experience first hand before they apply civilian rules to combat situations. It seems grossly unfair that you expect our soldiers to uphold the geneva convention when the enemy do not even recognise it. You've placed highly trained men into situations that the vast majority of you would crumple under in hours let alone weeks or months.

[jacko]

Point is he was in a war zone.what happened in a war zone should a stayed in the war zone.
The man was a terrorist .he would have had no second thought, s in killing the marine.
If we cant protect those protecting us ,then were all lost
Free sgt Blackman immediately. Honour him with a medal and send him back to do the job he was trained to do

[Big Gaz]

First of all you said that the thread should never have been started. I told you why I started it. Then you tell me I should lock the thread but you keep posting.

There is a user initiated process available when you have a problem with a thread. I suggest that you use it. Think index finger, I know I am.

I'm thinking more of a middle finger and i'm pointing it your way! as i said earlier, go buy some kleenex, you'll need them! oh and CLOSE THE DAMN THREAD!
no need to reply, you are on ignore!

[RagnarRocks]

that's the point you went through all that , returned to duty , and presumably did not kill any Irish terrorists once in custody ! well Blackman did and it is illegal.Nope I didn't clip any terrorists whilst in custody you're quite correct but would I have done so if we'd of caught one away from prying eyes dammed straight he'd of paid the price and no doubt it happens more often than you'd like to imagine. When you're in a fire fight with an enemy combatant you are judge jury and executioner its totally unrealistic to expect a man fully pumped just coming out of a life and death situation to just let it go because some civvy back home wants to hold some idealistic principle about fair play. I don't think you realise how high tensions get within the armed forces when we are taking high casualties and the cowards hide in civilian populations.

[cptdodger]

Can I just ask, would he have had legal representation at the court martial? I know how a court works, having had to do Jury service twice, but no idea how a military court works. Considering so many people think the verdict is wrong, including serving military and ex military, why has his solicitor not lodged an appeal against the verdict and sentence ?

[cptdodger]

Ignore that last post, I have just found this - http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Jailed-Royal-Marine-appeal-murder-conviction/story-20302468-detail/story.html

[RagnarRocks]

Can I just ask, would he have had legal representation at the court martial? I know how a court works, having had to do Jury service twice, but no idea how a military court works. Considering so many people think the verdict is wrong, including serving military and ex military, why has his solicitor not lodged an appeal against the verdict and sentence ?Yes you get representation but don't for a second think that a court martial is like a civvy court the officers presiding where well aware of how it was spread across the media hence the sentence if it hadn't been filmed nothing would of happened, this is the military doing what it thinks civilians expect of it . All these people comparing him to murdering some unknown in cold blood have no sense of perspective. The conditions within a combat zone are nothing like watching a film or reading a book, justice is summary brutal and dispensed quickly compassion is something thought about after the fact. The reality of dealing with an enemy like the Taliban is if you do leave them injured you're likely to regret it as they still seize any opportunity to take you with them, they do not operate within the rules most standing armies adhere to and are quite happy to explode a grenade in your face as you try to tend their wounds.

[wavy davy]

I'm thinking more of a middle finger and i'm pointing it your way! as i said earlier, go buy some kleenex, you'll need them! oh and CLOSE THE DAMN THREAD!
no need to reply, you are on ignore!

Oh dear, I think I've upset him.

[jacko]

Once it was out in the open Sgt Blackman had no chance , the media made sure of that ,the human right s brigade etc etc,
THIS SHOULD NEVER HAVE LEFT THE BATTLE SCENE.
taliban like to shoot soldiers in the legs so they cant get to safety , then they move in and drag the wounded man into a public place where they can humiliate their victims before beheading them while video taping for broadcast . compassionate people huh.

of course this terrorist was shot initially while skipping down the street scattering rose petals over our brave troops??
Well was he??

I fail to see how locking up a good soldier for 10 years for shooting a no good hate filled taliban who just before the incident was trying to kill the same man????. just makes no sense . human right s ??
just like Bin Laden , the man who engineered the twin towers attack on New York. he really put himself out , did nt he .
he had his brainwashed fools do the dirty work while he and his family jetted to safety.
Hid like the coward he is in a bolt hole with all his wives. Now and again broadcasting his hate filled video s from secret locations.
when he was eventually caught in the crosshairs of the navy seal,s rifle he put one of his wives between himself and the bullet with his name on it . brave man indeed.
faced with that kind of treachery any man would react the same as Sgt Blackman

Sgt Blackman should be released immediately. reinstated to his full rank and receive a full apoligy from the british public .

[linnie612]

and receive a full apoligy from the british public .

??????????

[RagnarRocks]

Noted that our own hero of Mount Tumbledown knowitall has deleted his posts..could it be that he got rumbled telling porkies on the org ... See another clown who wants to take the mick out of our troops by pretending to be one..for a quick update I have not spoken to one member of our armed forces current or ex who agrees with how Sgt Blackman has been treated so please accept service personnel do respect and understand what's he's been through.

[jacko]

??????????


why ever not we are part of the system that helped put him in jail . only we can get him out. we allowed it to happen .

[Phill]

He broke the cardinal rule, he got caught!

[little red one]

He broke the cardinal rule, he got caught!

Yup got it in one.



THIS SHOULD NEVER HAVE LEFT THE BATTLE SCENE.


Totally agree, his injuries aside how tragic would it have been if after he had been patched up the same Taliban had captured Sgt Blackman or his comrades, would they have been treated the same? The guys (and girls) should be allowed to do exactly what they are trained to do and survive to come back home to their loved ones. You cant put a civilian stamp on combat, its a horror im glad to never experience and i appreciate and respect the sacrifices those brave people make.

[Mrs Bradey]

If we had gone out to win a war the Taliban would be long gone from Afghanistan by now. But I doubt orgers would be comfortable with our lads being sent out on search and destroy missions............... It seems grossly unfair that You've placed highly trained men into situations that the vast majority of you would crumple under in hours let alone weeks or months.
Ragner Rocks


I agree with you that our forces should be fighting the taliban in a proper war instead of pussy footing around. the vast majority probably would crumble, unless of course they became highly trained!!! and I'm sure while you were serving in Ireland had you partaken in an act as you describe you would not have been so foolish as to film yourself or allow others to!!!

[RagnarRocks]

If we had gone out to win a war the Taliban would be long gone from Afghanistan by now. But I doubt orgers would be comfortable with our lads being sent out on search and destroy missions............... It seems grossly unfair that You've placed highly trained men into situations that the vast majority of you would crumple under in hours let alone weeks or months. Ragner Rocks I agree with you that our forces should be fighting the taliban in a proper war instead of pussy footing around. the vast majority probably would crumble, unless of course they became highly trained!!! and I'm sure while you were serving in Ireland had you partaken in an act as you describe you would not have been so foolish as to film yourself or allow others to!!!You're quite correct . That aspect of it is daft not sure what they where thinking filming themselves.

[Kevin Milkins]

This is a quote from a serving marine on what his take on the situation is.

Quote
[Judge Jeff Blackett handed over to these 3 clowns to decide on publishing his name. Then Blackett sentenced him. There are a lot of disgusted people. H4H have Blackett listed as a trustee! Surely conflict of interest?! They are losing lots of support and funds, but they are being very quiet! My heart goes out to Marine A and his family.] Unquote.
22104

[Big Gaz]

Problem with Afghanistan is the Brits and Yanks are on a no-win mission. Why do you think the Russians pulled out years earlier. Their losses were catastrophic compared to what current losses are. Rules of engagement and the Geneva convention play a major part in this campaign. The point being that Afghanistan signed the Geneva convention yet allow combatants on their soil to abuse and flout this law. So is it one rule for them and one rule for us? This isn't a Star Trek parody situation where it's "we come in peace, shoot to kill men, shoot to kill"
The rules of engagement are clear in stating that if you are, or feel, threatened by an enemy force or by an incident that's evolving in front of you, you are authorised to engage. That hasn't changed and nor should it change, be it a conventional environment or an insurgent environment.

I see wavy still hasn't closed the thread but then again it's my fault because i keep posting. Next time you open a can of worms, make sure you have an explosive can-opener

[wavy davy]

This is a quote from a serving marine on what his take on the situation is.

Quote
[Judge Jeff Blackett handed over to these 3 clowns to decide on publishing his name. Then Blackett sentenced him. There are a lot of disgusted people. H4H have Blackett listed as a trustee! Surely conflict of interest?! They are losing lots of support and funds, but they are being very quiet! My heart goes out to Marine A and his family.] Unquote.
22104

Kevin, Sorry, I'm being a bit dense, what is the crack with H4H re Blackman.

[wavy davy]

.

I see wavy still hasn't closed the thread but then again it's my fault because i keep posting. Next time you open a can of worms, make sure you have an explosive can-opener

The reason you keep posting is because you have something to say (I hate to admit it but I agree with most of it) but isn't that what forums are for? The thread will expire of its own volition. Oops forgot I'm on ignore.

[Kevin Milkins]

wavy davy
I have tried to stay neutral as possible on this thread because I have mixed emotions on the whole affair, however I am trying to understand everyone else's point of view from a broad section of people.
I have Facebook friends that are both serving and recently joined out marines and what I posted was part of a campaign from one such serving marine because of what he feels the injustice of naming marine A. Perhaps this other quote from him might make what I posted as more sense.

Quote
[Traveling deep in Russia just got the news of Marine A I am totally stunned I really didn't believe that the country would let this happen.
However the fact that they released his name putting his family under potential threat from home grown radical Islamists has over stepped the mark. I want to reach out to our network which is vast to discover the identities of the decision makers who decided to release his details. We will then publish all their details on the web so they can understand the reality of this war on terror first hand. Gents we are a big a powerful network it's time to get the gloves off and make an example of these individuals who have put Marine A's family in danger and I am happy to fund this operation.] Unquote

[RagnarRocks]

Couple of fuel air bombs over Helmand would soon quieten them down problem is we play far to nice nowadays and they see it as a sign of weakness

[wavy davy]

wavy davy
I have tried to stay neutral as possible on this thread because I have mixed emotions on the whole affair, however I am trying to understand everyone else's point of view from a broad section of people.
I have Facebook friends that are both serving and recently joined out marines and what I posted was part of a campaign from one such serving marine because of what he feels the injustice of naming marine A. Perhaps this other quote from him might make what I posted as more sense.

Quote
[Traveling deep in Russia just got the news of Marine A I am totally stunned I really didn't believe that the country would let this happen.
However the fact that they released his name putting his family under potential threat from home grown radical Islamists has over stepped the mark. I want to reach out to our network which is vast to discover the identities of the decision makers who decided to release his details. We will then publish all their details on the web so they can understand the reality of this war on terror first hand. Gents we are a big a powerful network it's time to get the gloves off and make an example of these individuals who have put Marine A's family in danger and I am happy to fund this operation.] Unquote

Thanks Kevin. The fact that they released his name is a big part of why I feel so strongly about this. Justice, give me a break!

[cptdodger]

Regardless whether people feel it was right or wrong to jail this man, I would hope we can all agree that his family should never, ever have been placed in danger like this. I think that was decided by a High Court Ruling which is civilian (I think). Having said that, the person that set the sentence was the Judge Advocate General, which is Jeff Blackett, who I believe is also a civilian. Civilian or not though, they must be aware that it is less than seven months since Lee Rigby was murdered in broad daylight in a London street - just for being in The Armed Forces. God knows what planet they are on, they have seen what lengths these "people" will go to. Whoever it was that decided to name him, should, at the very least be disbarred. Unfortunately the damage has well and truly been done, and I just hope somebody is looking out for his family.

[mi16]

His family have been put in a precarious position by the release of the name, will they be issued with new identities perhaps.
No one has looked at the prospect that perhaps had the insurgent not been murdered he may have survived long enough to provide key information to our troops.

[RagnarRocks]

His family have been put in a precarious position by the release of the name, will they be issued with new identities perhaps.No one has looked at the prospect that perhaps had the insurgent not been murdered he may have survived long enough to provide key information to our troops.You've obviously not read how severe the insurgents injuries wounds where I doubt if he could much more than attempt to breathe unless you consider a sucking wound that you can place three fingers in compatable with speech like in the movies. I think that marine a notebook extracts say he had h/e ( high explosive) rounds all down his left side from ankle to shoulder and his head had also been hit, and his chest had a sucking wound( his lung was punctured ) and the wound you could place three fingers in. So I'd respectfully suggest the most he could do was groan maybe gurgle and that's about it, it isn't like the movies where people give rambling speeches they cry for their mothers or scream in pain but don't do wonderful soliloquies. As for Mrs Blackman and her family well done the muppets who named them putting their lives in danger by home grown insurgents or for that facts ones who will come looking for some payback non of their names should of been released, just some pc twonk thinking it will make the enemy happy and leave us all alone.

[mi16]

As stated earlier, none of the Marienes were doctors, trained to make the call on life or death.
I is most unlikely that he would or could have talked but there is that remote possibility.

[RagnarRocks]

As stated earlier, none of the Marienes were doctors, trained to make the call on life or death.I is most unlikely that he would or could have talked but there is that remote possibility.All servicemen undertake a certain level of field medic work as we have to be able to tend to our comrades in the field if medics arent available all you've done is show how completely ignorant you are about the level of training men on the ground have and also what types of wounds are compatable with life. Stop watching so many films eh

[mi16]

So they are trined to make life or detath calls and if it is death they are trained to execute.
Would he have done the same to his own comrade had he been injured in a similar manner?

[RagnarRocks]

When you place a weapon in a soldiers hand and send him into potential danger are you not then allowing him to make life and death decisions,when you squeeze the trigger to fire off a round the very nano second you do that you have become judge jury and executioner if you don't like that reality I'm sorry it offends your sensibilities.As to saving the insurgents of course maximum effort is put into saving one of your team members but there is a reality that it isn't always feasible and sometimes decisions and tough calls have to be made. The idea of no man left behind is American it doesn't exist in the British Armed forces, so if rescuing one man is going to loose you five then tough call he stays until feasible to get him out without major loss. Combat troops are issued with basic medical kits these have limited use , if you can lift or drag someone to safety fair play the bond between servicemen is incredibly strong they will go that extra mile to save each other hence VCs being given that is for courage above and beyond the call of duty. But what you're expecting is for three men who have been engaged in a firefight to stop tend to the insurgents wounds then keep putting themselves at risk to try and sustain his life. You seem to forget they are in a combat zone would you spend time and effort staunching wounds which are that serious, putting yourself and your team at more risk from other insurgents on the off chance that he might possibly with a lot of luck survive long enough to get him to a medic then die. That's if he doesn't try something during that time to kill you.

[mi16]

Under the terms of the Geneva convention.

[Phill]

War is Murder!
Dress it up any which way you want, it’s murder. We send young men off to murder other young men.


A few people in sharp suits, in a nice warm comfy meeting room, drinking tea and eating biscuits, far far away from any conflict, will draw up various conventions, policies and rules which, in their mind, legitimises the murdering of one group of people by another group of people.
Somehow this puts these people at ease and they can sleep at night knowing that because they’ve made some rules, it’s OK to send people off to murder other people.

What this soldier did was wrong, but it was in an environment many of us can be thankful we will never have to experience. And it is all very well trying to apply some nice, very well worded rules from the comfort of our desktop to a situation that was a theatre of war. Where ‘kill or be killed’ is the premise by which some survive.

There are some trying to justify one groups departure from ‘the rules’ because, another group doesn’t recognise ‘the rules’.
What is missed here is, the leaders of the likes of the Taliban will most probably recruit the ill-educated and the easily led to be little more than cannon fodder for their cause. Believing what their masters tell them, these recruits may believe that they need to stop these evil forces by whatever means.
You can be damned sure they were not issued with a ‘code of conduct’. So can the individual Taliban soldier be blamed for not murdering people by ‘the rules’?

For many that our forces are fighting, our forces are the equivalent of their Taliban. Some other ‘power’ invading their country, using drones to kill their families. We are murdering them, so they murder us. The young men on the ground doing the killing may not have a clue about any Geneva convention, but what they know is another force is coming to kill them and their families, destroy their lives and violate their religion and way of life.
It’s a very shitty scenario which leads to shitty things happening, and shitty things happening in response. The psychology of the whole environment is twisted, we are not meant to murder one another. Equally, the respective soldiers are not meant to be scooping up various body parts of their mates.
Does it make it right, can any of it be justified because a guy in a suit, many many miles away, says there are ‘rules’?

Exemplary record or not, if this guy was not in a war zone in a foreign country this would not have happened. So where do we put the blame?

[jacko]

Under the terms of the Geneva convention.

I dont think the taliban adhere to the geneva convention.??

[RagnarRocks]

I wouldn't call war necessarily murder but it is killing but that's just me using semantics

[m.i.sinclair]

Exemplary record or not, if this guy was not in a war zone in a foreign country this would not have happened. I wouldn't bet on it....just remember the types of individuals we're dealing with here.

[RagnarRocks]

Under the terms of the Geneva convention.If the insurgent had been wearing a uniform and abiding by the geneva convention no doubt he would of been accorded the full protection of the geneva convention by our marines. As it is he wore civilian clothing made no attempt to shield civilians in the surrounding area and used their presence to make his attack possible so before the firefight he was actively breaking a number of sections of the geneva convention. Then during the firefight he was still using civilians to make his attack possible. So given that he had broken so many facets of the geneva convention and in previous encounters insurgents even when mortally wounded will still attempt to kill any member of the military close by he did not in reality accord the protection of the geneva convention given that all standard rules of engagement had been broken by him in my opinion he was just a casualty not befitting of the rules of normal human interaction bottom line he got judged.

[RagnarRocks]

I wouldn't bet on it....just remember the types of individuals we're dealing with here.Yes you're dealing with highly trained professional killers who spend their days protecting this country from assaults on the liberties and values you so glibly insult, you seem to derive some perverse pleasure by insulting the very men who put their lives on the line daily from men who would take someone like you and quite happily behead you after torturing you just for the pleasure of it then pop the video online for everyone to see. All I can say is you must be very unhappy in your life I can't for a second comprehend how small and insignificant you must feel in the big world out there.

[mi16]

I dont think the taliban adhere to the geneva convention.??



If the insurgent had been wearing a uniform and abiding by the geneva convention no doubt he would of been accorded the full protection of the geneva convention by our marines.

Oh I think I understand this now, so if the enemy do not abide by the Generva convention then the Geneva convention is not applicable to our troops whilst in combat with said enemy.

[m.i.sinclair]

spend their days protecting this country from assaults on the liberties and values Codswallop. You've been reading too many Commando comics.

[cptdodger]

Oh I think I understand this now, so if the enemy do not abide by the Generva convention then the Geneva convention is not applicable to our troops whilst in combat with said enemy.

This is from a previous post I made regarding The Geneva Convention, as I said I think the President they are referring to is George W Bush -

STATUS OF TALIBAN FORCES

UNDER ARTICLE 4 OF
THE THIRD GENEVA CONVENTION OF 1949
The President has reasonable factual grounds to
determine that no members of the Taliban
militia are entitled to prisoner of war status under Ar
ticle 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention (III) Relative
to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
February 7, 2002 - That from this document - http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/olc/taliban.pdf

[mi16]

and what has that do do with a UK Marine?

[cptdodger]

Unless The Geneva Convention has changed since 2002, or Americans follow a different version of it, it appears The Taliban are not protected (if that's the right phrase) by it. So, if I am reading that right, then I would say Alexander Blackman would certainly have grounds for an appeal.

[cptdodger]

and what has that do do with a UK Marine?

That's what I was saying, I thought there was only one Geneva Convention, I had no idea it was different for every country that adheres to it.

[mi16]

That's what I was saying, I thought there was only one Geneva Convention, I had no idea it was different for every country that adheres to it.

So the US make a declaration, and every signatory nation have to abide by it?
If so why did Blackman say he broke the Geneva convention?
And why was he court marshalled?

[cptdodger]

So the US make a declaration, and every signatory nation have to abide by it?
If so why did Blackman say he broke the Geneva convention?
And why was he court martialled?

I think I said before I have no idea how the Geneva Convention works, I thought there was only one version of it.

I was not there, I have no idea, I cannot answer for the mans actions.

Because the Military put him, and two others in the dock, as you would have seen if you watched the news or read the papers.

[sids]

So, if I am reading that right, then I would say Alexander Blackman would certainly have grounds for an appeal.

Why? Was he convicted of "breach of the Geneva Convention?"

Or murder?

[cptdodger]

Okay, lets try this again - I do not understand The Geneva Convention.

According to that version - "No member of the Taliban militia are entitled to prisoner of war status under Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention (111) Relative to the treatment of Prisoners Of War"

Work it out yourselves what relevance that has when somebody comes across an injured member of the taliban, because I have no idea what difference it makes, whether they have POW status or not.

Just to make it clear, and just in case any of you missed it - I had no idea that countries that had signed up to the Geneva Convention, could just pick and choose the parts of it that suited them.

[mi16]

I think the yanks challenged it so they could continue warterboarding, sleep depravation and other such torture techniques.

[Tubthumper]

I always laugh when a passionate ex-squaddie starts to bawl and shout about what should be done to those who dare to use their right to freely express opinions to express opinions that are in any way critical of those who fought for freedom of expression and so on. Ironic really.

[cptdodger]

I think the yanks challenged it so they could continue warterboarding, sleep depravation and other such torture techniques.

They might very well have done, I honestly do not know, however this is the map showing who adheres to what protocol - http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/annual-report/current/icrc-annual-report-map-conven-a3.pdf

I certainly apologise, I got it wrong. I thought there was just one Geneva Convention.

[2little2late]

Why should he be freed? After all he has brought shame on Britain, shame on the monarchy and shame on the British army, (which, may I add is the best and most proud in the world). Blame the stresses of war if you like, but they, as soldiers are trained for situations like this. There is no excuse for what he has done. O.K. had the situation been reversed the Taliban would have done the same, but they are terrorists and that is what they do. No, I am not saying Marine A is a terrorist, far from it. He should have followed thew Geneva convention and taken the guy into military custody. He should serve his time as what he did was completely wrong. He admitted himself he had broke the Geneva Convention.

[RagnarRocks]

Why should he be freed? After all he has brought shame on Britain, shame on the monarchy and shame on the British army, (which, may I add is the best and most proud in the world). Blame the stresses of war if you like, but they, as soldiers are trained for situations like this. There is no excuse for what he has done. O.K. had the situation been reversed the Taliban would have done the same, but they are terrorists and that is what they do. No, I am not saying Marine A is a terrorist, far from it. He should have followed thew Geneva convention and taken the guy into military custody. He should serve his time as what he did was completely wrong. He admitted himself he had broke the Geneva Convention.Before you go spouting off make sure your facts are correct .Firstly do not think you speak for the whole of the population that shows some arrogance and speaking on behalf of the monarchy so you have our monarchs permission to speak on her behalf or just assuming the position of mouthpiece for the nation .Secondly he is a Royal Marine a member of the Naval arm of the services not the British Army. The armed forces train you to fight they do not train you to mentally endure what you're going through.

[RagnarRocks]

They might very well have done, I honestly do not know, however this is the map showing who adheres to what protocol - http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/annual-report/current/icrc-annual-report-map-conven-a3.pdfI certainly apologise, I got it wrong. I thought there was just one Geneva Convention.There is only one geneva convention ! But there are additional protocols.

[Mrs Bradey]

surely they do train for mental endurance.... they must do.

[RagnarRocks]

surely they do train for mental endurance.... they must do.The endurance to be able to run long distances carrying heavy weights and endure physical discomfort I suppose it would be fair to say that comes with the basic training. But we aren't talking about that type of mental endurance there is no way you can train and endure seeing human beings being shot or blown to pieces unless you desensitise them,which I'm sure is not what you're referring to or would wish for.

[Mrs Bradey]

teaching people to shoot the enemy, throw grenades into enclosed spaces and run them them trough in close quarters with a dagger. would the trainee expect the enemy would just die clean and quiet? I don't think so. however I agree it would be difficult to show the outcome of an ied attack in the classroom but surely they must explain that those killed or injured in this way will not just be lying on the floor waiting for a stretcher.

[golach]

he is a Royal Marine a member of the Naval arm of the services not the British Army. .

Yes Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy and not the Army, he was part of the Senior Service [lol]

[cptdodger]

There is only one geneva convention ! But there are additional protocols.

And I found that out about the protocols the hard way !

[RagnarRocks]

teaching people to shoot the enemy, throw grenades into enclosed spaces and run them them trough in close quarters with a dagger. would the trainee expect the enemy would just die clean and quiet? I don't think so. however I agree it would be difficult to show the outcome of an ied attack in the classroom but surely they must explain that those killed or injured in this way will not just be lying on the floor waiting for a stretcher.
You appear to have a very idealised idea of how the armed forces train people.
Shooting targets called a figure 11 is nothing like firing at a real person.
Throwing a hand grenade from a pit down a range is nothing like throwing one in a combat situation
Whilst bayonets are still occasionally used the general idea is not to let them get that close and only practised on dummies.
You seem to forget that recruits join usually between the ages of 16 & 18 when the realities of war are viewed as vastly different to the realities that they've been brought up with viewing in films and the pride and glory bits society revels in.
The realities are vastly different and nothing can prepare you for what happens in your first engagement that is the first time reality kicks in by which time its too late to wonder if you're really cut out for it.
You will find idiots like knowitall proffering fantasies about what they did most men I know will choose not to discuss such things except with other forces personnel even then sometimes just allowing it to fade away is the best option.

[RagnarRocks]

Yes Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy and not the Army, he was part of the Senior Service [lol]Yes I always remember it Royal Navy taxi service for the Royal Marines :0))

[Mrs Bradey]

You appear to have a very idealised idea of how the armed forces train people. Shooting targets called a figure 11 is nothing like firing at a real person. Throwing a hand grenade from a pit down a range is nothing like throwing one in a combat situationWhilst bayonets are still occasionally used the general idea is not to let them get that close and only practised on dummies.You seem to forget that recruits join usually between the ages of 16 & 18 when the realities of war are viewed as vastly different to the realities that they've been brought up with viewing in films and the pride and glory bits society revels in.The realities are vastly different and nothing can prepare you for what happens in your first engagement that is the first time reality kicks in by which time its too late to wonder if you're really cut out for it.You will find idiots like knowitall proffering fantasies about what they did most men I know will choose not to discuss such things except with other forces personnel even then sometimes just allowing it to fade away is the best option. I agree that my view sounds idealistic, however I really think the forces should prep them more for what they are going to see, feel, and the results of their actions on the battle field ! in an earlier post you state how many men could not cope with what the "highly trained" soldiers experience at war, now you seem to be saying that the man in the street is as trained when it times to viewing/experiencing the casualties of war !? and I agree about knowitall .....plonker .

[scorrie]

You appear to have a very idealised idea of how the armed forces train people.
Shooting targets called a figure 11 is nothing like firing at a real person.
Throwing a hand grenade from a pit down a range is nothing like throwing one in a combat situation
Whilst bayonets are still occasionally used the general idea is not to let them get that close and only practised on dummies.
You seem to forget that recruits join usually between the ages of 16 & 18 when the realities of war are viewed as vastly different to the realities that they've been brought up with viewing in films and the pride and glory bits society revels in.
The realities are vastly different and nothing can prepare you for what happens in your first engagement that is the first time reality kicks in by which time its too late to wonder if you're really cut out for it.
You will find idiots like knowitall proffering fantasies about what they did most men I know will choose not to discuss such things except with other forces personnel even then sometimes just allowing it to fade away is the best option.

There is no training I know of, in any civilised armed force at least, that prepares you for killing a fellow human being. War is unnatural and it is a disgrace that soldiers were executed for "cowardice" while others sat in judgement in warm offices many miles from danger.

There are mitigating circumstances in the case being discussed here but the act carried out is defined as a crime and therefore must be punished accordingly if we are to at least have the belief that we are more civilised than those we are in combat with.

[Mrs Bradey]

There is no training I know of, in any civilised armed force at least, that prepares you for killing a fellow human being. War is unnatural and it is a disgrace that soldiers were executed for "cowardice" while others sat in judgement in warm offices many miles from danger.There are mitigating circumstances in the case being discussed here but the act carried out is defined as a crime and therefore must be punished accordingly if we are to at least have the belief that we are more civilised than those we are in combat with. I very much agree.

[2little2late]

Before you go spouting off make sure your facts are correct .Firstly do not think you speak for the whole of the population that shows some arrogance and speaking on behalf of the monarchy so you have our monarchs permission to speak on her behalf or just assuming the position of mouthpiece for the nation .Secondly he is a Royal Marine a member of the Naval arm of the services not the British Army. The armed forces train you to fight they do not train you to mentally endure what you're going through.

Who on earth are you? I stand by what I say. He brought shame on the ARMED FORCES.. Of course they get trained for all the aspects of conflict. You're such a fool.

[RagnarRocks]

Who on earth are you? I stand by what I say. He brought shame on the ARMED FORCES.. Of course they get trained for all the aspects of conflict. You're such a fool.I am me that's obvious enough and an ex member of her majesties forces who disagrees with you quite simple. As for the personal insults I suggest you become man enough to say it to my face or else I just consider you a coward

[cptdodger]

He brought shame on the ARMED FORCES.. Of course they get trained for all the aspects of conflict. You're such a fool.

He most certainly did not. The rest of the Armed Forces will not be held accountable for one mans actions. Unless you have seen a bomb go off 10 feet in front of you, and witnessed first hand the aftermath, death and destruction that that bomb caused, you would realise nothing could prepare anybody for that. The Marine took the wrong action that day, nobody is denying that, not even him. I saw what a bomb can do - once. The Armed Forces deal with that or the threat of that every single day. I know the damage that did to me, not just physical but mental. You may not agree with Ragnar Rocks, that's fine, but do not disrespect the man by calling him a fool, he fought for his country and deserves respect, as do all the Armed Forces past and present.

[amm26]

Mr Blackman broke the law, of course he should be punished. He was fully aware that what he did was wrong as well. At least once a year British service personnel undergo training on how to deal with injured/surrendered enemy and are taught what they can and can't do.What is more concerning is the circumstances that led to that. Multiple tours in Afghanistan by certain units have left them too lax with their drills. If you hear the tape, notice marine B responds "roger mate" not "roger sgt". The fact Mr Blackman felt at ease to murder someone and casually tell his "mates" to keep quiet.Mr Blackman was made an example of. This is to prevent others service personnel from repeating his actions.The difference between British servicemen and women and the Taliban is that the British do it right. To casually murder injured enemy combatants would put us on their level, and what would the point in us being there be?

[Kevin Milkins]

An interesting article by Robin Tilbrook the chairman of the English Democrats

Quote
I support the calls for Marine A to receive a Royal Pardon.

As I understand it the facts in this case came to light several years after the event when his comrade who had recorded the whole incident on a helmet video cam-recorder was being investigated for something else and the police looked through his computer and found that he had downloaded and kept the clip of the incident.

Marine A’s response to this seems to have been to lie about it and try to say that he thought the wounded Taliban was already dead. This dishonest response coupled with his comment at the time to his comrades that the incident should “go no further” and that he had breached the “Geneva Convention” showed that Marine A was well aware that he had not only disobeyed orders but also had broken the law. The question however does remain what is the appropriate punishment for this incident?

In my view British Forces should not be in Afghanistan anyway and certainly should not be there in the current political situation where we are in effect propping up a corrupt government and thereby facilitating a vast upsurge in opium production. The direction of travel in the Afghan government in any case is to become ever more Islamist and no doubt as soon as Western troops are removed the Taliban will take-over again. Probably the whole net outcome of the intervention in Afghanistan will be that the Afghan state is far worse than what was happening before so far as our Nation’s interests are concerned. The whole intervention has cost literally billions and the lives of hundreds of our soldiers and the health of thousands of badly wounded or battled traumatised men. The Taliban have been increasingly vicious to captured soldiers and I understand before this incident occurred, not only were the limbs of captured soldiers being displayed on trees, but also at least one had been skinned alive.

In the circumstances it is not surprising that our soldiers start to feel extremely unwilling to take prisoners.

The Geneva Convention does not in fact require soldiers to take prisoners, but once they have been taken then they have to be looked after, so there may have been a legitimate issue as to whether this individual had in fact been taken prisoner. I don’t know whether this was properly argued before the Court Martial.

In any case, even if we assume that he had been taken prisoner and it was a deliberate act of murder, the fact is that the British State has put Marine A into this situation means that it owes him a duty to not treat him like any other ordinary criminal. In particular, not to put him into the civilian prison environment where he is bound to be endangered by the hundreds of Islamist gangs that now infest our prisons.

On this point it is worth noting that when “Tommy Robinson” was sent to prison he had to be kept in solitary confinement in order to protect him from these Islamist gangs! Is the British Political and Establishment really saying that Marine A should be kept in solitary confinement for 10 years for this offence?

It is however the case that Marine A has disobeyed orders and in a military context having soldiers disobey orders and try to cover up their disobedience does require some disciplinary reaction. I would have thought in this case being dismissed from the service with disgrace was sufficient acknowledgement of Marine A’s wrongdoing.

It should also be borne in mind that probably the relevant Taliban individual had been sufficiently badly wounded that he was in fact going to die anyway.

It is also difficult to see what the point of spending considerable expense and medical resources on the Taliban individual would be when even if it was possible to save him, as soon as he became healthy again he would revert to being a serious risk to our soldiers!

As Winston Churchill makes clear in his first book ‘The Malakand Field Force’, he himself and the British Army in the North West Frontier generally did not take prisoners. When they had tried to take prisoners, the then equivalent of the Taliban suicide bombers, the Ghazis would try to kill them! It therefore appears that Churchill and his comrades decided to shortcut the process and give the Ghazis the benefit of immediate martyrdom!

Had the prosecuting decision been mine, I would not have sought to convict Marine A of murder but now that he has been convicted of murder, the honourable way for the State to deal with the situation would be the very traditional one of a Royal Pardon. This would release Marine A from prison immediately but does leave him with a recognition of the fact that there has been a breach of military discipline. What the Government has said about this is no doubt deliberately deceptive. They claimed that:- "It would be inappropriate for the Government to intervene in this independent judicial process." A Royal Pardon is a perfectly proper and long standing way in which the English state has been able to keep legal decisions in tune with public opinion. This case is one where it could be used to correct an injustice.

What do you think? Unquote.

[Phill]

Of course they get trained for all the aspects of conflict. You're such a fool.No, they get trained for the various aspects of their given job. In some cases this is how to murder people by many and various methods. What is not followed up, is how to deal with that. Also, after being sent around the world to meet people and kill them, many do have any training into joining Civvy Street. The training provided meets the specific need at the specific time, sometimes.

[wavy davy]

An interesting article by Robin Tilbrook the chairman of the English Democrats

Quote
I support the calls for Marine A to receive a Royal Pardon.

As I understand it the facts in this case came to light several years after the event when his comrade who had recorded the whole incident on a helmet video cam-recorder was being investigated for something else and the police looked through his computer and found that he had downloaded and kept the clip of the incident.

Marine A’s response to this seems to have been to lie about it and try to say that he thought the wounded Taliban was already dead. This dishonest response coupled with his comment at the time to his comrades that the incident should “go no further” and that he had breached the “Geneva Convention” showed that Marine A was well aware that he had not only disobeyed orders but also had broken the law. The question however does remain what is the appropriate punishment for this incident?

In my view British Forces should not be in Afghanistan anyway and certainly should not be there in the current political situation where we are in effect propping up a corrupt government and thereby facilitating a vast upsurge in opium production. The direction of travel in the Afghan government in any case is to become ever more Islamist and no doubt as soon as Western troops are removed the Taliban will take-over again. Probably the whole net outcome of the intervention in Afghanistan will be that the Afghan state is far worse than what was happening before so far as our Nation’s interests are concerned. The whole intervention has cost literally billions and the lives of hundreds of our soldiers and the health of thousands of badly wounded or battled traumatised men. The Taliban have been increasingly vicious to captured soldiers and I understand before this incident occurred, not only were the limbs of captured soldiers being displayed on trees, but also at least one had been skinned alive.

In the circumstances it is not surprising that our soldiers start to feel extremely unwilling to take prisoners.

The Geneva Convention does not in fact require soldiers to take prisoners, but once they have been taken then they have to be looked after, so there may have been a legitimate issue as to whether this individual had in fact been taken prisoner. I don’t know whether this was properly argued before the Court Martial.

In any case, even if we assume that he had been taken prisoner and it was a deliberate act of murder, the fact is that the British State has put Marine A into this situation means that it owes him a duty to not treat him like any other ordinary criminal. In particular, not to put him into the civilian prison environment where he is bound to be endangered by the hundreds of Islamist gangs that now infest our prisons.

On this point it is worth noting that when “Tommy Robinson” was sent to prison he had to be kept in solitary confinement in order to protect him from these Islamist gangs! Is the British Political and Establishment really saying that Marine A should be kept in solitary confinement for 10 years for this offence?

It is however the case that Marine A has disobeyed orders and in a military context having soldiers disobey orders and try to cover up their disobedience does require some disciplinary reaction. I would have thought in this case being dismissed from the service with disgrace was sufficient acknowledgement of Marine A’s wrongdoing.

It should also be borne in mind that probably the relevant Taliban individual had been sufficiently badly wounded that he was in fact going to die anyway.

It is also difficult to see what the point of spending considerable expense and medical resources on the Taliban individual would be when even if it was possible to save him, as soon as he became healthy again he would revert to being a serious risk to our soldiers!

As Winston Churchill makes clear in his first book ‘The Malakand Field Force’, he himself and the British Army in the North West Frontier generally did not take prisoners. When they had tried to take prisoners, the then equivalent of the Taliban suicide bombers, the Ghazis would try to kill them! It therefore appears that Churchill and his comrades decided to shortcut the process and give the Ghazis the benefit of immediate martyrdom!

Had the prosecuting decision been mine, I would not have sought to convict Marine A of murder but now that he has been convicted of murder, the honourable way for the State to deal with the situation would be the very traditional one of a Royal Pardon. This would release Marine A from prison immediately but does leave him with a recognition of the fact that there has been a breach of military discipline. What the Government has said about this is no doubt deliberately deceptive. They claimed that:- "It would be inappropriate for the Government to intervene in this independent judicial process." A Royal Pardon is a perfectly proper and long standing way in which the English state has been able to keep legal decisions in tune with public opinion. This case is one where it could be used to correct an injustice.

What do you think? Unquote.

Kevin,

The following is the text of a letter I wrote to a national newspaper.

'Sirs,

It's a daily occurrence to read about the ways that laws are flouted, twisted and interpreted in this country to suit the needs of our masters and the well connected. It's a sad reflection of today's society that politicians and the judiciary did not apply their well oiled minds to devise a different outcome in Sergeant Blackman's case.'

Robin Tilbrook's suggestion is an example of what I meant, though sadly I doubt that it will happen at this stage.

[Kevin Milkins]

Kevin,

The following is the text of a letter I wrote to a national newspaper.

'Sirs,

It's a daily occurrence to read about the ways that laws are flouted, twisted and interpreted in this country to suit the needs of our masters and the well connected. It's a sad reflection of today's society that politicians and the judiciary did not apply their well oiled minds to devise a different outcome in Sergeant Blackman's case.'

Robin Tilbrook's suggestion is an example of what I meant, though sadly I doubt that it will happen at this stage.

wavy davy

I understand where you are coming from and that's why I have found the very different opinions of a cross section of the org community interesting.

Although we have some members that are much better informed than others on what it might be like to have to make the "unwise" decision that Sargent Blackman made, I still find it hard to make my own mind up on what his outcome ought to be, however, I find it intriguing to read many different opinions from the good and the righteous.

I will post my opinion when I have given it due thought.