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squidge
02-Dec-13, 00:47
I was disappointed to read that for many of todays girls sexism is alive well and kicking. A recent report showed that 80% of the 16 to 21 year old girls in the survey had experienced sexual harrassment. Nearly 90% of the girls thought that they were judged more on their looks than their ability. 60%of the 16 to 21 year olds questioned had been patronised or made to feel stupid because of their sex and nearly 50% thought that having babies would damage their careers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25138455

It is really disappointing for those of us for whom equality has been something we have strived for, worked for and sometimes fought for over most of our lives, to find that our young people are still facing the same difficulties we faced nearly forty years ago. [disgust]

Dadie
02-Dec-13, 01:25
Hmmn after working for a company that is at a well known nuclear site for many years I was told by my supervisor that I had "played the system" and had good innings(and played them as I had 3 lots of mat leave close together) as I quit after baby no3 after the mat leave ran out ...they were not flexible on working hours as they had been in the past....in effect pushing me to quit,,,,which I did...as they knew I had childcare probs on a certain day ...yet changed my working days to include that day! I would say sexisim is live and kicking now and is unlikely to change unless attitudes change towards females of childbearing age change...ie you are a girl and will get preg and never work again...and cost me lots in downtime while preg/mat leave is in progress.....If they thought ok you now are preg ....and are returning to work we will let you use your 10 days easing you in then letting you work from home a few days etc ....or doing flexitime or a mix you dont lose a well qualified member of staff........plus flexiworking helps employers by having staff that can cover for emergencies etc..or swap shifts etc where staff would be "sick" and workers from home dont have the same distractions as workers at work or if they do they usually feel guilty and do extra to make up the time....even if its 10 mins to get coffee..

mi16
02-Dec-13, 12:12
I'm all for equality but it goes both ways! Try as we do, us blokes just can't get male sexism acknowledged!!. In many cases a job or task simply cannot be done by a particular sex and there are many issues over choosing a female instead of a male for a job i.e. a nice rack and cute rear will bring many men into a pub but let that man apply for a vacancy in said pub and he gets blown off with the comment that "it doesn't work having males behind the bar, i lose too much money!" and that was from a female pub owner! now is that sexism, sexual discrimination or just good business sense.
As for pregnancy, every female has the right to bear child and i totally agree with that but take just one case of a female employee of a mate of mine who runs his own printing shop. She had a year off to have a baby, my mate paid the wages due, employed temps to fill the gap and had a good moan about the extra unnecessary expense as you do, then no sooner was she back at work when she decided to have another baby! The last straw was when she was on her second maternity leave when she became pregnant again!. My mate got no help from the government to cover all this extra expense and was basically told he couldn't fire her or replace her because it was her right to have a child. Fair do's, it is indeed her right to have a child....but what about my mates right to run a successful business and provide for his own family (and pregnant wife) something he couldn't fully do because of the increased expense of needing temp workers to fill the gap. In the end my mate closed the business down just to get rid of her as he was sick of paying someone for doing nothing. Is that sexism, discrimination or just good business sense?

At least she blew him off before refusing him employment.

David Banks
02-Dec-13, 14:48
I'm all for equality but it goes both ways! Try as we do, us blokes just can't get male sexism acknowledged!!. In many cases a job or task simply cannot be done by a particular sex and there are many issues over choosing a female instead of a male for a job i.e. a nice rack and cute rear will bring many men into a pub but let that man apply for a vacancy in said pub and he gets blown off with the comment that "it doesn't work having males behind the bar, i lose too much money!" and that was from a female pub owner! now is that sexism, sexual discrimination or just good business sense.
As for pregnancy, every female has the right to bear child and i totally agree with that but take just one case of a female employee of a mate of mine who runs his own printing shop. She had a year off to have a baby, my mate paid the wages due, employed temps to fill the gap and had a good moan about the extra unnecessary expense as you do, then no sooner was she back at work when she decided to have another baby! The last straw was when she was on her second maternity leave when she became pregnant again!. My mate got no help from the government to cover all this extra expense and was basically told he couldn't fire her or replace her because it was her right to have a child. Fair do's, it is indeed her right to have a child....but what about my mates right to run a successful business and provide for his own family (and pregnant wife) something he couldn't fully do because of the increased expense of needing temp workers to fill the gap. In the end my mate closed the business down just to get rid of her as he was sick of paying someone for doing nothing. Is that sexism, discrimination or just good business sense?

Pass me a box of kleenex, pal !

If this is the worst that male sexism looks like, then I would like to suggest that your list doesn't even-up the playing field, not by a long shot.

About jobs in pubs, have you ever considered that the average woman might be a little better at empathy/communication etc. -- yet you can't see (or think) past her cleavage? Not only do you need some education, but you need to teach your sons, nephews etc. to expand the way they think about girls and women.

In my view, companies should expect to make a profit AFTER taking ALL possible steps to support pregnant women and families with young children, with appropriate laws and services from governments when necessary. Not only that, but "climbing the ladder" in a company, professional organisations etc. should accommodate short breaks in work for childbirth and early childcare/nursing.

I'm just going to ignore ALL religions in this post. They are "beyond redemption."

And I haven't started a litany of other inequalities including physical and economic dangers faced by women. Dab the tears out of your eyes Big Gaz, and then open them.

mi16
02-Dec-13, 15:08
yet you can't see (or think) past her cleavage?

Oh come on, any self respecting gent will take a look at her behind when reaching for the bottle of tonic in the chillers lower shelf.

David Banks
02-Dec-13, 15:17
Oh come on, any self respecting gent will take a look at her behind when reaching for the bottle of tonic in the chillers lower shelf.

Read what I said!

I suggested Big Gaz "expand the way they think about girls and women."

That is why I did not say "change . . . "

mi16
02-Dec-13, 15:36
Read what I said!

I suggested Big Gaz "expand the way they think about girls and women."

That is why I did not say "change . . . "

right...
so instead of just staring at the boobs they should have a look at the bum also.
good advice

David Banks
02-Dec-13, 18:59
right...
so instead of just staring at the boobs they should have a look at the bum also.
good advice

If you and Big Gaz want to be dismissive and frivolous, may I suggest you try the Jokes section, or start another thread and not hi-jack this one.

Big Gaz
02-Dec-13, 19:05
Hey Mr.Thread police, there you go, i deleted my posts. You happy now? I'll just go mind my own sexist business now

RagnarRocks
02-Dec-13, 20:50
I do think going on matermeity leave then popping out sprogs one after another isn't fair on the employer yes take maternity leave and the company should support you but I've seen a lot of women who have one child then have another with hardly any break then when they run out of maternity leave, then they leave the company that is hardly fair or just it is defectively using the company for your own means ignoring the livelihood of those who are working hard to keep the business afloat. There should be an option for an employer to disengage from the contract if a woman decides to have two children close together or gets pregnant again whilst on maternity leave,that at least means there is some balance to the process as the business is a business not a social welfare scheme.

squidge
02-Dec-13, 21:14
Do any of you think that a company gets any benefit from maternity leave provisions. And its interesting to note that you have all focused on maternity leave. What about the issue of sexual harrassment of young girls, or the issues around how many gave felt patronised or made to feel stupid becsuse of their sex?

Phill
02-Dec-13, 21:45
There is a lot of pressure from the media, both implied and actual, on the yoof and teenagers about their looks and sexuality, how they dress and body shape etc. This seems to be levelled at both male and female but in different aspects.

What I perceive is it is a female driven ideal in many cases. ‘Girls’ magazines edited by women aimed at young women and ‘womens’ magazines which generally tell females they are fat and ugly unless they buy into whatever crap they’re trying to sell.

canuck
02-Dec-13, 21:58
Pass me a box of kleenex, pal !

...

I'm just going to ignore ALL religions in this post. They are "beyond redemption."



I'm not sure where you were going with all religions being 'beyond redemption.' My reading of the initial post of the thread led me to think that it had to do with employment and maternity leave. One of the most helpful aspects of being a minister of religion was the flexibility of the use of my time when it came to being a mother of young children. I did have the opportunity to do some of my work at home. Certainly I did have need to be in certain places at certain times and emergencies were always just round the corner. And I enjoyed the benefits of maternity leave.

If sexism is the topic, then yes, as a female minister of a major protestant denomination, I did come up against it. And maybe it affected my career path. Yet good, supportive opportunities also came my way, such as those 4 glorious months I spent in Caithness in 2004.

Rheghead
03-Dec-13, 00:19
I agree that there is sexual discrimination in the workplace, I've been overlooked for promotion on several occasions just because I lack the necessary long blonde hair and the essential body curvature for the job.

David Banks
03-Dec-13, 00:25
I'm not sure where you were going with all religions being 'beyond redemption.' My reading of the initial post of the thread led me to think that it had to do with employment and maternity leave. One of the most helpful aspects of being a minister of religion was the flexibility of the use of my time when it came to being a mother of young children. I did have the opportunity to do some of my work at home. Certainly I did have need to be in certain places at certain times and emergencies were always just round the corner. And I enjoyed the benefits of maternity leave.

If sexism is the topic, then yes, as a female minister of a major protestant denomination, I did come up against it. And maybe it affected my career path. Yet good, supportive opportunities also came my way, such as those 4 glorious months I spent in Caithness in 2004.

I may seem to have wandered a little off the original theme, but it seems to me that religions have been at fault for millennia for promoting and prolonging paternalism and hindering womens' fight for equality. So, give me a shout when women hit roughly 50% representation amongst the ranks of ministers, elders, televangelists, archbishops, popes, priests, ayatollas, rabbis, dali lamas and the like (not to mention prime ministers, MP's, company directors, CEO's, the NRA leadership and the like, ad nauseum). I hope it is not offensive for me to suggest your talents may be being wasted trying to turn your (religion's) ship around.

As suggested in an earlier post, I think men have to speak up to educate their sons, nephews, scouts, boys and men in general, whenever the situation demands it, and without being labeled Mr. Thread Police. Deleting a post just doesn't cut it for me. If I sound to you like a father with daughters, then you would be correct.

Being (an imported) canuck myself, I hope your attempt to bring this thread back on topic works.

Kenn
03-Dec-13, 00:25
Have we not advanced at all?
I was educated to believe that the sexes were equal apart from in some physical aspects.
I came across sexism when working for a bank who would not give me a mortgage because I was female and later I was rejected for promotion as I might get pregnant.
This was over 40 years ago and in one case the manager bent the rules, in the other he was most apologetic but moved me to the position any way.
Since then I worked from home when the children were young and for two companies who had equal opportunity programmes before going self employed.
It's shameful if girls and women are still being treated as second class.

little red one
03-Dec-13, 05:15
I was disappointed to read that for many of todays girls sexism is alive well and kicking. A recent report showed that 80% of the 16 to 21 year old girls in the survey had experienced sexual harrassment. Nearly 90% of the girls thought that they were judged more on their looks than their ability. 60%of the 16 to 21 year olds questioned had been patronised or made to feel stupid because of their sex and nearly 50% thought that having babies would damage their careers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25138455

It is really disappointing for those of us for whom equality has been something we have strived for, worked for and sometimes fought for over most of our lives, to find that our young people are still facing the same difficulties we faced nearly forty years ago. [disgust]

Things have changed a bit over time then, not too many years ago those stats would have been 99.9% for harrassment 99.9% for judging 99.9% for being patronised and i would guess that lots of young women maybe wouldn' t have thought they would even have a career 40 years ago!

Im not trying to suggest that modern standards are ok just that they are different. keep fighting;)

When i was 16 to 21 yrs old i would have been positively delighted with being sexually harrassed by women! but i think thats a mars/venus thing tbh with the old old (yawn) cliche about a sexually assertive male being accepted and the female counterpart being a sl*t (not my belief btw) Look at the media' s approach to entertaining men/women! They are as much to blame for the way things are today, pick up any glossy mans mag and what do you see? I admit you do see the odd bloke in womens magazines but no where near on the same scale and usually with more clothes on. The daily newspapers are no different either, as already mentioned its the media who put pressure on young ladies to fit in but this is true for young men too and it happens within their own peer groups just as much, anyone who doesn' t fit in with the majority either through following fashion/dresscode/sexual orientation/hair style/size/even the right bloody mobile phone is open to critisism. Its a play ground mentality that some people never grow out of.

when i was in my early twenties i was refused a job (by a woman) in a tie making factory on the grounds that i was male.

Stange thing the maternity leave debate, its not like the mother has to be the one who stays home and looks after the kids but imo it seems to be a common expectation that mum stays at home and dad goes to work. Id even go as far as to say that some people find the idea of a stay at home dad quite distasteful or even shameful.

As for working in pubs! lol! my wife and i both worked behind the bar in the same pub, guess who got told to 'go home' by the local (older male) clientel? and it had absolutely nothing to do with my ability to pull a pint btw. Sexism or good business? id say both. Its a bit like the way nightclubs in my youth were not too picky about letting young women in but heavily vetted the teenage lads to encourage the higher earning blokes in. Sexism or good business? disgusting imo and some cases illegal.

I grew up in a single parent (mum) household, have 6 sisters, got to hang around with a lot of female friends and loved the attention i got from them. It would be fair to say that i was also harrassed, patronised, judged on my appearance, and made to feel stupid by them too...

Phill
03-Dec-13, 07:12
I agree, religion in all it's forms is trying to keep us all in the dark ages. Without a doubt it is the most sexist, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic, supremacist dose of shite ever to have corrupt the world. Religion should be banned IMHO. And certainly separated from state.

canuck
03-Dec-13, 09:30
I may seem to have wandered a little off the original theme, but it seems to me that religions have been at fault for millennia for promoting and prolonging paternalism and hindering womens' fight for equality. So, give me a shout when women hit roughly 50% representation amongst the ranks of ministers, elders, televangelists, archbishops, popes, priests, ayatollas, rabbis, dali lamas and the like (not to mention prime ministers, MP's, company directors, CEO's, the NRA leadership and the like, ad nauseum). I hope it is not offensive for me to suggest your talents may be being wasted trying to turn your (religion's) ship around.

As suggested in an earlier post, I think men have to speak up to educate their sons, nephews, scouts, boys and men in general, whenever the situation demands it, and without being labeled Mr. Thread Police. Deleting a post just doesn't cut it for me. If I sound to you like a father with daughters, then you would be correct.

Being (an imported) canuck myself, I hope your attempt to bring this thread back on topic works.

Ah, now I see where you were going with your statement. The irony of what has been seen as the Christian attitude toward women is so far from the original principles and practise of the early church that one could almost suggest that they aren't even the same organization. That is of course a topic for another day.

I applaud your attitude as a father. I have for a long time said that the solutions to the world's problems are to be found in the education of women. Of course in Canada that is pretty much the norm, but it also takes a household where women are supported and encouraged to make that education meaningful on the world stage. And from educated women come more educated women. We shall get there. Thanks Dave for your support in this challenge.

Now for some statistics - not to show that we have arrived, but at least that the journey has begun. In Canadian mainline protestant theological colleges (where people train for ministry) the ratio of women to men has exceeded the 50:50 barrier. And I think that it is close in Scotland. As for elders in the Church of Scotland (and this is the only denomination for which I have stats) there are 16,936 male elders and 17,202 female elders. So the balance has tipped there too. My influence in other denominations can only be as a role model and a sign to people in leadership positions that women ministers is a concept that works.

Male/female issues aside, my approach to work is to find the best person for the job. I'm not so much concerned about gender balance just because it looks good. Gender balance does bring some good things into a situation, but to make it look good for political correctness should not be one of them.

canuck
03-Dec-13, 09:37
I agree, religion in all it's forms is trying to keep us all in the dark ages. Without a doubt it is the most sexist, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic, supremacist dose of shite ever to have corrupt the world. Religion should be banned IMHO. And certainly separated from state.

Phill, I am sorry that your experience has led you to feel this way. I have to say that I am in total disagreement with this post. But that is the way of the org. It is beautiful and we love it.

Alrock
03-Dec-13, 09:42
Now for some statistics - not to show that we have arrived, but at least that the journey has begun. In Canadian mainline protestant theological colleges (where people train for ministry) the ratio of women to men has exceeded the 50:50 barrier. And I think that it is close in Scotland. As for elders in the Church of Scotland (and this is the only denomination for which I have stats) there are 16,936 male elders and 17,202 female elders. So the balance has tipped there too. My influence in other denominations can only be as a role model and a sign to people in leadership positions that women ministers is a concept that works.

Could that be purely down to the fact that with declining church attendance they have to take who they can get & since women tend to be more gullible (http://www.livescience.com/7689-women-religious-men.html) when it comes to believing such claptrap they are a good way of making up the numbers?

Kevin Milkins
03-Dec-13, 09:44
The only problem I find with women is that they are all female .;)

canuck
03-Dec-13, 17:31
Could that be purely down to the fact that with declining church attendance they have to take who they can get & since women tend to be more gullible (http://www.livescience.com/7689-women-religious-men.html) when it comes to believing such claptrap they are a good way of making up the numbers?

Interesting idea. But most of the female elders I have met would never be described as 'gullible', at least I wouldn't describe them that way. Some are doctors, some are lawyers, some teachers etc, etc - none of which are professions of the gullible.

Mrs Bradey
03-Dec-13, 18:09
Interesting idea. But most of the female elders I have met would never be described as 'gullible', at least I wouldn't describe them that way. Some are doctors, some are lawyers, some teachers etc, etc - none of which are professions of the gullible. they are the very same. many doctors are duped into signing sick notes for people without illness, many solicitors have been duped into lying for guilty parties in order to get them off their charges, and well- teachers need I say more.

orkneycadian
03-Dec-13, 19:13
According to the State Pension Age Calculator on www.gov.uk, an arbitrary male born on the 1st of January 1950 will qualify for the state pension on the 1st of January 2015.

A similar arbitrary female born on the 1st of January 1950, has qualified for the state pension since the 1st of January 2010.

Now, what were you saying?

Alrock
03-Dec-13, 19:42
According to the State Pension Age Calculator on www.gov.uk (http://www.gov.uk), an arbitrary male born on the 1st of January 1950 will qualify for the state pension on the 1st of January 2015.

A similar arbitrary female born on the 1st of January 1950, has qualified for the state pension since the 1st of January 2010.

Now, what were you saying?

And to add insult to injury Women tend to live on average 5 to 10 years longer than men.
So, if anything, the retirement ages should be the other way about.

gleeber
03-Dec-13, 21:54
I was brought up with the mind-set that women worked at home and looked after the kids. There was no malice in it. It was just how I was. I've had to adapt to social changes between the sexes in my lifetime and I'm all for it. It's more about respect than equality. A building site is a great leveller and especially as a father of girls.
David's right about that but I think it's wrong to blame religion for sexism. Religion has little to do with sexism and has enough problems without being blamed for that. :lol:

Kenn
04-Dec-13, 00:54
Great sentiments gleeber although I suspect that Islam has a few questions to answer.
I was however reminded by a certain minister of the kirk that it is the interpretation of religion that is at fault. I have to admit that despite being a heathen I have to agree.

Phill
04-Dec-13, 01:23
?......but I think it's wrong to blame religion for sexism.It has a lot to answer for. Looking at the Catholic & Protestant churches I see loads of Women have been holding the top jobs for years! No, wait, it's not women. It's blokes in dresses talking to a sky fairy, my bad.

squidge
04-Dec-13, 01:48
According to the State Pension Age Calculator on www.gov.uk, an arbitrary male born on the 1st of January 1950 will qualify for the state pension on the 1st of January 2015.A similar arbitrary female born on the 1st of January 1950, has qualified for the state pension since the 1st of January 2010.Now, what were you saying?I was saying that it is disappointing and shocking that girls are still suffering harrassment, patronising behaviour and are still judged on their looks and have expectations that it will be harder for them to achieve their potential. Not wholly sure what the pension age - which has now been changed - or religion have to do with this today.

luskentyre
04-Dec-13, 02:15
I had 3 lots of mat leave close together) as I quit after baby no3 after the mat leave ran out ...

Of course you were playing the system. Why on earth would any employer think otherwise? Tell me honestly, what use were you to your employer during those three years?

orkneycadian
04-Dec-13, 19:07
Not wholly sure what the pension age - which has now been changed - or religion have to do with this today.

I wonder how much more money the young people of today would have in their pockets through reduced taxation, if they weren't paying for the early retirement of the arbitrary female mentioned above?

cptdodger
04-Dec-13, 20:37
According to the State Pension Age Calculator on www.gov.uk (http://www.gov.uk), an arbitrary male born on the 1st of January 1950 will qualify for the state pension on the 1st of January 2015.

A similar arbitrary female born on the 1st of January 1950, has qualified for the state pension since the 1st of January 2010.

Now, what were you saying?

Just out of interest when did it change ? I put my date of birth in it for both male and female (I was born in '63) and they calculated the same year for retirement.

canuck
04-Dec-13, 20:41
I wonder how much more money the young people of today would have in their pockets through reduced taxation, if they weren't paying for the early retirement of the arbitrary female mentioned above?

I'm just guessing, but maybe 50p, and that is for all the women who have retired at 60. Pension is based on the number of years of service, not just age.

The law was changed so that a full pension on an age 60 retirement no longer is available to women. Born after 5 April 1950 there is a sliding scale to get women to the 65, then 67 (sounding like to infinity and beyond). So, after 40, 45, 50 years in employment and paying taxes all along women can retire too with some kind of pension. It wasn't always that way, but we can be thankful that after all those years of contributing to the economy there is a place for rest and some financial security.

canuck
04-Dec-13, 20:44
Just out of interest when did it change ? I put my date of birth in it for both male and female (I was born in '63) and they calculated the same year for retirement.

The law changed in 2010. I know because I was just a few months over the magic date of birth before 5 April 1950.

squidge
04-Dec-13, 20:57
I wonder how much more money the young people of today would have in their pockets through reduced taxation, if they weren't paying for the early retirement of the arbitrary female mentioned above?And how does the amount of money that young people have in their pockets affect the amount of sexual harrasment you g girls are still being exposed to? Or their career prospects or the way people speak to them?

cptdodger
04-Dec-13, 21:44
The law changed in 2010. I know because I was just a few months over the magic date of birth before 5 April 1950.

Not so good for you canuck, thanks for your reply.

RagnarRocks
04-Dec-13, 21:49
Unfortunately sexual harassment is always going to be a tricky subject due to the way men and women are built. The bottom line is generally speaking men are built to be attracted to women and women attracted to men. No offensive to the gay community here. But if a man is attracted to a woman and she is attracted to him it will probably be well recieved and not a problem. If a man is attracted to a woman who isn't attracted to him there in lies the route of the problem. Many relationships start in the workplace so it can be tricky if the man is somewhat lacking in social skills and overplays his hand. Also there is the what is considered acceptable one generation may find something acceptable and another find it totally unacceptable. Today's political correctness hasn't helped making the whole issue any easier for men nor women. There will always be the man who uses his position of power to try and gain favour, and there will also be women who find that power attractive. It's an absolute minefield in today's society where people seem to be offended by the slightest thing. Some women expect the door opened for them by men others find it demeaning and rude so there is no winning in some cases. Generally speaking its best to avoid situations where attractions are played out within the workplace but that can be difficult when over riding evolutionary build ins.A lot of the problems younger women face nowadays are image stereotypes portrayed by numerous media outlets magazines, TV, radio , then pop stars all trying to keep themselves in the public eye and making more outrageous statements regarding everything day in day out from what to eat to what to wear and how to look and think, common sense seems to have flown out of the window in today's world. Ideally everyone would get on with everyone but the reality is that will never happen so I think that this will remain a rose with numerous thorns as long as there are men and women. What it does require is sensitivity when dealing with it.

orkneycadian
04-Dec-13, 23:17
And how does the amount of money that young people have in their pockets affect the amount of sexual harrasment you g girls are still being exposed to? Or their career prospects or the way people speak to them?

Extract from your original post;


It is really disappointing for those of us for whom equality has been something we have strived for, worked for and sometimes fought for over most of our lives, to find that our young people are still facing the same difficulties we faced nearly forty years ago. [disgust]

Equality swings both ways.

squidge
05-Dec-13, 00:38
Sorry Orkneycadian, i still dont get why the pension thing, which in fact has now been resolved, is a contributory factor to the harrassment that these girls are experiencing. Ragnar makes some interesting points but it is likely that these girls havent started work yet. In fact, , some of them are as young as 13.

Moira
05-Dec-13, 01:14
This may have been a good topic for debate Squidge in the good old days. I think it was unfortunate that Dadie elaborated on her experience regarding maternity leave and many posters latched onto that.

Never mind, another day, another debate......

David Banks
05-Dec-13, 18:49
This may have been a good topic for debate Squidge in the good old days. I think it was unfortunate that Dadie elaborated on her experience regarding maternity leave and many posters latched onto that.

Never mind, another day, another debate......

. . . . that what Dadie had to say was "unfortunate," and we need not explore her personal/family matters in much detail here.

Item 1:
Without children, humanity will become extinct, and there will be nobody left to support us old folk through government pensions or individual investments.

Item 2:
I would not suggest that the world adopt China's one child policy - even they seem to be talking about scrapping it. At the same time, the world would become quickly unsustainable if every woman had a dozen kids. Somewhere between these, there has to be a balance. In "developed" countries, many couples are choosing not to have children, so I see nothing wrong with someone having three (such as me, for example).

Item 3:
I don't know if it was the contributor or an *administrator who removed the comment asking what Dadie had contributed to the company's bottom line for three years, but here's what I think about that.
When it comes to maternity leave, most pregnant women can safely work close to the time of delivery, and need some time for their bodies to recover after delivery. Without getting into the niceties of breast feeding yes/no/for how long/breast pumps/refrigerators/milk banking and all that, it seems to me that the parents and the parents' employers should be able to work out who stays home with the kids or how work/home time is shared out.
If that cannot be done, then government needs to step in to define minimum requirements.

Item 4:
Research seems to be proving more and more the importance of caring for babies and toddlers. Only a very few can afford to hire nannies and child care workers.
I was pleased to read in the recently published "Scotland's Future" document the proposals for "Early learning and childcare" starting on page 192 (and maybe elsewhere - I can't remember all of it).


So, rather than criticizing Dadie, we should thank her not only for her contribution to this thread, but also to her contribution and dedication to bringing up the next generation (for all of us). If memory serves me correctly, Dadie made a posting some time ago about lack of consideration when she brought her young ones into a restaurant - another area where we all need to learn tolerance, understanding and support rather than dishing out criticism. It stood out, for me, as indicating someone who was trying to do her best.

And, I hope my comments don't lead this thread off topic again. For example, there is a separate thread on "Scotlands Future . . ." where you can sound off on item 4 if you want to.

Dadie
05-Dec-13, 22:44
*SIGH*
It was 1 area that sex discrimination comes about that I had 1st hand experiance of and it didnt feel nice.I did work up to delivery time in all 3 pergnancies to very near due date btw ...days to due date(actually worked over what was needed on 2 pregs as the babies arrived at 37 weeks and 38 weeks ) rather than weeks..as far as I know there hasnt been a man pregnant.
But if a girl isnt very academic and more hands on they are pushed more into hairdressing and beauty therapy while the boys are still steered towards mechanics and plumbing etc...
Its different learning styles not a case of who is more clever before you have a debate on whats what!
Yes there are male hairdressers and female engineers, but, even now there are percieved roles for males and females.
For example I let my girls help Daddy fix things and "play" with tools (1 of my girls is highly interested in the multi tool and screwdrivers and has taken the hoover apart more than once)and have been asked isnt a thing for boys to do?
While I also got told My hubby/partner would have a fit if I let my wee boy go out with a toy pram, when my boy took his dinosaur to school to pick up the girls in the toy pram with a handbag (to keep his cars in) ...whats wrong with either senario?
They are only little for a little while and jobs shouldnt be gender specific these days (unless its intimite care for example ) for dignity purposes.
Can boys play with prams and dolls and make up and girls play with saws and screwdrivers and soldering irons without gender stereotypes frowning at them from high!

crayola
05-Dec-13, 23:09
You tell 'em Dadie. I'm with you all the way girl. :)

cptdodger
06-Dec-13, 00:14
I worked in Security for a number of years, which is still considered to be male dominated. I was a Security Manager for Tesco's in Kent, and never came across anything like you did Dadie, when I became pregnant, I was really looked after. The only thing I found was when I got a new partner (work) from a different store, I found out he earned more than me, which I was not too happy about, however what had happened was he had moved from a store that had London Weighting, but eventually we earned the same. I then went to work for Bourne Leisure (Butlins) as a security officer, what I found there was, I was treated as an equal until, there was a fight, then I was told to stay away. Not because I could not handle myself, but because the men I worked with would be making so sure no harm came to me, they could end up getting hurt themselves. I suppose some people could interpret that as being sexist, but I must admit I did'nt. If I was working and there was a lost child, It would be me that was sent to deal with the child opposed to a male security officer, which again was fine. Maybe today sexism is still a reality, but it's how you deal with it that counts.

Moira
06-Dec-13, 20:36
"Sorry Moira......" etc


. . . . that what Dadie had to say was "unfortunate," and we need not explore her personal/family matters in much detail here. <snip>
.


No need to be sorry David. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

squidge
06-Dec-13, 23:35
I have had five babies and four lots of Maternity leave. In all cases my employers have got back a well trained experienced member of their workforce. Something they would not have had but for maternity leave. Did it affect my career? Absolutely. Many men thought that motherhood is incompatible with work. The older the man - the more likely he was to think it. As I have overtaken my line managers in age these days I would hope that this is less of an issue than it was. I am not convinced however.

I am glad that the pension age is equal and that the father can now share the maternity leave with the mother and I think many men are glad of that too.

These issues of legal equality are a bit of a smokescreen though. They mask the real issues around the way women are viewed in society and therefore in the workplace. These girls are still on the receiving end of harrassment, insults, leering and behaviour that is inapporopriate from men or from boys their own age. Girls continue to be patronised, and dismissed because of their sex, girls go into a career already aware that they will be disadvantaged because of the fact that they have babies. Its disappointing and depressing that today's bright intelligent girls are still getting hands up their skirts and down their tops, still being leered at and having the mickey taken when some daft lad tips their bag up to find feminine hygiene products fall out.

The media also bears a responsibility for this - as long as women appear half naked on page three - airbrushed to within an inch of her life to look like some improbable real life barbie doll; as long as lads mags encourage readers wives type submissions and as long as the music and other industries measure a woman's worth and her "saleability" by the size of her boobs and the shortness of her skirt, we will continue to see this type of result in a poll like this.

We mothers and fathers need to ensure that we teach not only our girls to be strong and able to stand up to the inappropriate behaviour they may experience but we need to be training our boys to be feminists too. 21st century feminism isnt about bra burning, it isnt so much about the law - it is about equality for all - male and female, gay straight, black white and every hue inbetween. We need to be teaching our boys that to be a feminist is the RIGHT thing to be.

orkneycadian
06-Dec-13, 23:50
I don't recall too many women complaining when, prior to the 2011 ruling, they were offered cheaper car insurance than men. Sheilas Wheels did a bomb.

Are you aware of any women who insisted on paying extra premiums so as to be equal? I am not.

golach
06-Dec-13, 23:58
No maternity leave in my day, my wife had to leave work as all women did, I was lucky to get a day off on becoming a dad.
In my years in the HMC&E I had many female line managers, never felt any sexisim at all, and never held me back, my bad annual reports (well the ones I thought were bad) were usually written by males

squidge
07-Dec-13, 00:10
I don't recall too many women complaining when, prior to the 2011 ruling, they were offered cheaper car insurance than men. Sheilas Wheels did a bomb.

Are you aware of any women who insisted on paying extra premiums so as to be equal? I am not.

What is your point orkneycadian. Are you saying that because women were once able to retire earlier, once able to have maternity leave to the exclusion of time off for men and used to be able to get cheaper insurance that discrimination, harassment and inequality doesnt exist? What do you make of the study then? Or the zero tolerence campaign? Or this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25266177. Dear god almighty - if this is happening in the houses of parliament then what hope have we in boardrooms, committee rooms and classroms!

RagnarRocks
07-Dec-13, 01:10
Putting your hand down a woman's top or up her skirt is sexual assault and prosecutable by law no excuses for that sort of behaviour anywhere unless of course its your wife or girlfriend in an appropriate setting with her consent.I don't think its fair to blame page three take a look at advertising on TV mostly aimed at women or programmes like Britains next top model or whatever its called and all the women's magazines . These are just as much at fault for young girls growing up with body issues etc as the sun page3.

squidge
07-Dec-13, 01:35
Its not just about girls "body issues" Ragnar though - its about viewing women as simply there for titilation (I know lol I know) - as sex objects and there for the taking.

RagnarRocks
07-Dec-13, 09:58
Well you also have to remember that sexual attraction is hard wired into us all that testosterone and stuff men can have a hard time controlling those urges same as some women do . Thank goodness we are like many other species on the planet eh ....rutting season woohoo ! Or may husband is in musk this week so I've locked him in the padded cell for his own safety ! Alway remember that the drive to mate is probably one of the strongest impulses we deal with so you always have to factor it in :0)) and that's not an excuse for groping or leering

mi16
07-Dec-13, 11:09
This thread is very anti men, I have not noticed anyone stating that is not only a MINORITY of men that leer or grope etc. Put a guy in a mainly female environment and he can become on the receiving end of remarks and leering.

golach
07-Dec-13, 12:07
Put a guy in a mainly female environment and he can become on the receiving end of remarks and leering.

LOL you wish [lol]

mi16
07-Dec-13, 12:32
LOL you wish [lol] thanks golach you have highlighted my point very well. When a male is on the receiving end it is laughed off, similarly with domestic abuse on males.

cptdodger
07-Dec-13, 13:52
thanks golach you have highlighted my point very well. When a male is on the receiving end it is laughed off, similarly with domestic abuse on males. I agree, this thread is very anti men, and I am a woman! I have seen first hand a male member of staff being bullied, constantly made fun of - just because he was the only male in the section we worked in, I asked him why he did'nt report them to our seniors, he said he was too ashamed, well, I was'nt, and it soon stopped. Your argument is so one sided Squidge, over the years, and for me there have been many, I have seen women using their "femininity" to get what they want, to "climb the corporate ladder" and so on. I did it the hard way, worked hard to attain my achievements, and have absolutely no respect for women like that whatsoever. Are all women like that? No, but then neither are all men.

orkneycadian
07-Dec-13, 15:24
Put a guy in a mainly female environment and he can become on the receiving end of remarks and leering.

Sounds particularly like when the Hen Night Gangs are out in force! Behaviour that if it were applied by males towards females, would have them locked up on charges of sexual assault and attempted rape!

squidge
07-Dec-13, 20:01
Give over!!!! Anti men? What have I said that could be construed as anti men. I have been a feminist my whole life, as was my own mother and it has NEVER been about hating men. Its about having the opportunity to live the life I choose and not being prevented from doing so because of my sex.

Cpt -you are absolutely right - bullying is never acceptable. Domestic violence is never acceptable and of course it happens to men as well as women, however it is a fact to say that women are massively more likely to suffer domestic violence than men. Just like it is a fact that the young girls in the survey are experiencing the same sort of sexist rubbish that I and others experienced 30 years ago and that is massively disappointing to me and many other women, mothers of girls we hoped wouldnt have this rubbish to deal with.

I offered a few suggestions as to why this is happening and am really interested in hearing what ideas others might have about what needs to happen to change the types of behaviour and attitude these girls are experiencing.

cptdodger
07-Dec-13, 20:35
The point I was trying to make Squidge, was, that poor man was just one instance of bullying and so on that I am aware of, and as I said he was too ashamed to report it. How many men out there are in the same position? There are figures out there about domestic violence concerning women, again as I said, men are not so likely to seek help. When I worked on Security at Butlins (I lived on) one of my friends there turned up at my door with practically a hole in his brow, when I asked him about it he said his girlfriend (at the time) had hit him with the heel of her stiletto shoe. He laughed it off, until I asked him what he would have done if my partner had assaulted me, I can't write on here what his answer was. The problem is, and this is so wrong, but men would be considered weak if they admitted their partner was beating them up. Just to clear one thing up, I never said you hated men. I will just add this, and you can accuse me of being as old fashioned as much as you like, however when I was at Butlins and especially on the adult weekends we used to watch young girls go across the road to the pub wearing next to nothing and leaving very little to the imagination. Young girls cannot have it both ways, dressing like that, then complaining when they get leered at and treated as sex objects (as you put it). There is absolutely no point in telling me girls should be able to wear what they want and not get hassled, maybe in a perfect world, but this is not, and especially not when alcohol is thrown in the mix. I started work thirty four years ago, and maybe I dealt with it differently, but neither I or my daughter who is 30 have ever experienced whatever "sexist rubbish" you refer to. We are both mothers, and that never held either myself or my daughter back in our chosen careers.

golach
07-Dec-13, 20:47
thanks golach you have highlighted my point very well. When a male is on the receiving end it is laughed off, similarly with domestic abuse on males.

I was being flippant not serious, and as I said in post #49 I had more female line managers than male in my career, never a hint of bullying, sexisim or innuendo, maybe in many of the units I worked in I was seen as the Grandad of the unit, yes I was usually the eldest, but was also the one with years of experience.
I would have been married this year for 51 years sadly my wife died 5 years ago, all in all a happy partnership, yes a partnership, we were equal partners, who made mistakes as a young couple with two children, but ther was never any domestic abuse. The best years on our partnership was when we finally got the bairns standing on their own two feet, then it was our time, we had to learn to communicate with each other and not through the medium of the bairns. We had our diffenceses, she liked Tripe I hated it, but we came to an arrangement, she ate her tripe, on days I was not at home.
Sexisim???in our marriage .............never

squidge
07-Dec-13, 20:51
But is any of this discussion anti men? It absolutely is not. It isnt anti men to recognise domestic violence happens to both men and women or to acknowledge that women are more at risk than men. It is not anti men to say that this type of behaviour happens nor is it anti men to think about what we can do to stop this happening. I am really glad that you were never on the receiving end of the sort of behaviour that we are talking about. I truly am. However, These girls ARE experiencing this. I DID experience this type of behaviour, at school and in work. Not all the time but enough for me to remember it and to learn to deal with it. It isnt anti men to say that either.

ducati
07-Dec-13, 20:55
I offered a few suggestions as to why this is happening and am really interested in hearing what ideas others might have about what needs to happen to change the types of behaviour and attitude these girls are experiencing.

Don't live in Scotland or Newcastle upon Tyne

mi16
07-Dec-13, 21:27
I was being flippant not serious,
Flippant or not it still made my point perfectly

little red one
07-Dec-13, 23:05
But is any of this discussion anti men? It absolutely is not. It isnt anti men to recognise domestic violence happens to both men and women or to acknowledge that women are more at risk than men.

I agree with that tbh, wether people admit it or not due to peoples working enviroment/exercise men are usually stronger than women, there are always exceptions. My mother had a real hard time through both her partnerships and through work. I can only hope my daughter will not suffer like she did.

cocopops
08-Dec-13, 01:57
As long as the majority of women are responsible for the majority of the child care women will alway be treated unequally in the work place. And I'm unaware of any men who sort out the child minders, doc appointments , hairdressers etc for their kids. Yes they help care, but usually the female partner tells them when and where to be. It's rubbish, but it's reality, and there is definitely discrimination and lack of promotion opportunities because of it, maybe not voiced, but it's there in society. It's not right, but I can't see it changing as long as women get pregnant and bond with their kids. I for one wouldn't want to go back to work full time and my hubby be at home with the kids, not because I don't think he can't do a good job but because that's where I want to be.

brandy
08-Dec-13, 11:18
I want to add one to this post.. this happened several years ago.. will not say where.. but it was where I was working at the time.. I was preg and another young lass became preg as well. Now I was married and Hubby and I were well known in the community.. so I wonder if that had something to do with it... but the basis is.. I was treated very well by my employer.. IE when I was unwell or had hospital apts they were very courteous.. now the other young girl.. was not married in late teens I believe.. 18-20 i think. She had several near misses in her pregnancy but our employer was very hard on her. She confided in me and I was shocked as the treatment between us was oceans apart. So is it not only sexism but ageism as well... why was I treated better than her? Obviously I will not go into details on issues.. just that they were there...

orkneycadian
08-Dec-13, 12:02
I was treated very well by my employer.. IE when I was unwell or had hospital apts they were very courteous.. now the other young girl.. was not married in late teens I believe.. 18-20 i think. She had several near misses in her pregnancy but our employer was very hard on her. why was I treated better than her?

It might be absolutely nothing to do with sex or age. Men get the same thing for all sorts of reasons. One might be a grafter and the boss likes him because, when he is not sick or otherwise incapacitated, his grafting makes up for it. The other might be a slacker, so when he goes sick, the boss doesn't have a lot of sympathy for him.

I think what you are highlighting Brandy is the potential for personality issues, which can affect everyone of all ages and sexes.

cptdodger
08-Dec-13, 15:48
I want to add one to this post.. this happened several years ago.. will not say where.. but it was where I was working at the time.. I was preg and another young lass became preg as well. Now I was married and Hubby and I were well known in the community.. so I wonder if that had something to do with it... but the basis is.. I was treated very well by my employer.. IE when I was unwell or had hospital apts they were very courteous.. now the other young girl.. was not married in late teens I believe.. 18-20 i think. She had several near misses in her pregnancy but our employer was very hard on her. She confided in me and I was shocked as the treatment between us was oceans apart. So is it not only sexism but ageism as well... why was I treated better than her? Obviously I will not go into details on issues.. just that they were there... I might very well be wrong, but I think what Brandy was getting at was her employer frowned upon the fact that the younger girl was pregnant and not married, which however long ago was not deemed acceptable. And I presume in certain areas of the country is still not.

gleeber
08-Dec-13, 16:25
Whatever it was whether it was sexism, ageism or just good old prejudice it's not acceptable behaviour. That's what employment law is for. It protects employees from hidden prejudices in their employers or managers. I don't doubt some people will use it to their advantage but there are procedures to deal with that.
It's more to do with how we handle personal relationships than sexist although sexism covers a multitude of sins. :lol:
I don't accept religion is at the root of sexism. I blame people.

cptdodger
08-Dec-13, 17:25
Whatever it was whether it was sexism, ageism or just good old prejudice it's not acceptable behaviour. That's what employment law is for.

You are quite right, of course it's not acceptable behaviour, regardless of the reason. And yes there is such a thing as employment law, supposedly to protect employees from this sort of behaviour. However, if you are straight out of school/college you are unlikely to know the inns and outs of employment law. I was fortunate that when I worked for a certain company I knew enough about it to see what they were getting away with regarding the younger employees. And also if the young girl Brandy was referring to was only a teenager, would she have the confidence to take her employer on with regards to employment law ? At that age I certainly would not have.

Phill
20-Dec-13, 21:24
Here's something I read the other day, this young lady is fat & obese:

http://cdn03.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/lawrence-glaad/jennifer-lawrence-new-short-hair-at-glaad-media-awards-2013-01.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25427990

Now that is putting pressure and enforcing twisted messages on young women (and men), the media again not helping the situation.
But who is the driving force behind these messages, male or female?

orkneycadian
21-Dec-13, 02:59
Could she not have applied some concealer to that bit on her shin where she has been kicked by a coo whilst obviously trying to apply a calf to sook?

mi16
21-Dec-13, 10:53
She may well have scuffed her shins at the sookin