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orkneycadian
26-Nov-13, 20:19
I am pleased to see that the long awaited prospectus on the independence referendum has finally been published by the SNP. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to open it, as the page linked to on the BBC website, www.scotreferendum.com repeatedly causes my browser to crash. However, that aside, I am looking forward to getting stuck into it, and reading about all the answers the SNP will have for all the questions that have been lying open for so long now.

I look forward to a good debate on the matters, and wonder now that there is such a big document laid out, that if the site admin here might consider making a new (temporary) top level section of 'e org, on Scottish Independance, then sub sections on all the relevant areas (of which I am sure there are quite a few in the prospectus)

Phill
26-Nov-13, 21:24
Took me quite a while to download a copy, hope this isn't a sign of future IT infrastructure! All very glossy and wordy, lacking 'answers' though, seems most 'answers' are left for the future elected govt to sort out.

wavy davy
29-Nov-13, 00:51
I've read hundreds of Proposals, Business Plans and the like. If I had read one like this, with so many uncosted promises and untested assertions I would have binned it in a heartbeat. So, logically it's down to the Bravehearts of this country.

ducati
29-Nov-13, 01:04
I've not even looked at it. It is of no interest to me at all.

wavy davy
29-Nov-13, 01:26
I've not even looked at it. It is of no interest to me at all.

Know what you mean, but for me it was the final check on the rhetoric v the hard facts.

mi16
29-Nov-13, 08:18
I have not and will not read it, I'm not interested in what fatboy is selling.

RagnarRocks
29-Nov-13, 09:39
Seems to me more like a delusional fools wish list he can't actually promise anything that has still to be negotiated unless he doesn't actually know what negotiation means

Mr P Cannop
29-Nov-13, 09:46
you can get it sent to you in the post

billmoseley
29-Nov-13, 16:09
I think it can be summed up for Mr Salmon in 2 words. WISH LIST

golach
29-Nov-13, 20:12
you can get it sent to you in the post

why get it sent by post when you can download it.

Big Gaz
29-Nov-13, 21:03
surely you mean P*SH LIST????

Green_not_greed
30-Nov-13, 00:08
Same thing. Its a sales brochure from the team trying to sell the product. Not an impartial review of what independence would mean. Don't forget that!

cptdodger
30-Nov-13, 01:54
And if anybody saw "Have I got News For You" tonight, you will see what a laughing stock the referendum has turned this country into.

Mr P Cannop
30-Nov-13, 10:32
you can refer to it at any time

orkneycadian
30-Nov-13, 11:10
I have managed to get this opened from the Scottish Government site rather than the scotreferendum site that kept crashing the browser. Its a slightly worrying start if the campaign cannot make the information freely available to us "masses" without technology issues. Still waiting for the paper version to appear through the letterbox.

Anyway, from the quick initial leaf through, it appears heavy on aspirations, light on facts, and not a lot different from the stuff thats already been bandied around in the media already. Conspicuous by its absence is the figures that would make up the "business plan". The figures that prove, as far as predictions can, that Scotland can afford independence. There appears to be some very light numbers in Annex C, which is supposed to be a "detailed analysis", but the furthest ahead any of them seem to go is 2016/2017. Given that the referendum is in 2014, and should it yield a Yes vote, independence in to be in 2016, then the "business plan" at best shows figures 2/3 years ahead of the referendum and 0/1 years ahead of the actual independence. If I went to the bank with a business plan to borrow (even more) money to erect a new byre, the bank would be looking for projections for 5 years.

There appears to be more column inches in the local (Orkney) press given over to the Our Islands - Our Future - (Our Oil) campaign (that last bit is a minor embellishment of mine....) than there is on the referendum. What the SNP prospectus doesn't seem to address is how the 4/5 of the population who reside in the central belt are expecting to benefit from the 4/5 of the oil reserves that are located off the islands, and how the rScotland would fare if they didn't have access to the revenues generated from Island Oil. Aside from that, the income from oil is fairly predictable (downwards) for more than a year or 2, so I would have expected that even if the Islands were prepared to share the oil with rScotland, then a reasonable business plan for a reasonable period ahead could be written.

Phill
30-Nov-13, 12:15
I have managed to get this opened from the Scottish Government site rather than the scotreferendum site that kept crashing the browser. Its a slightly worrying start if the campaign cannot make the information freely available to us "masses" without technology issues.I did get a copy downloaded but then after it opened I had ACCESS DENIED! (But my IP address was showing as in Laarndun)

Green_not_greed
30-Nov-13, 14:25
I have managed to get this opened from the Scottish Government site rather than the scotreferendum site that kept crashing the browser. Its a slightly worrying start if the campaign cannot make the information freely available to us "masses" without technology issues. Still waiting for the paper version to appear through the letterbox.

Anyway, from the quick initial leaf through, it appears heavy on aspirations, light on facts, and not a lot different from the stuff thats already been bandied around in the media already. Conspicuous by its absence is the figures that would make up the "business plan". The figures that prove, as far as predictions can, that Scotland can afford independence. There appears to be some very light numbers in Annex C, which is supposed to be a "detailed analysis", but the furthest ahead any of them seem to go is 2016/2017. Given that the referendum is in 2014, and should it yield a Yes vote, independence in to be in 2016, then the "business plan" at best shows figures 2/3 years ahead of the referendum and 0/1 years ahead of the actual independence. If I went to the bank with a business plan to borrow (even more) money to erect a new byre, the bank would be looking for projections for 5 years.

There appears to be more column inches in the local (Orkney) press given over to the Our Islands - Our Future - (Our Oil) campaign (that last bit is a minor embellishment of mine....) than there is on the referendum. What the SNP prospectus doesn't seem to address is how the 4/5 of the population who reside in the central belt are expecting to benefit from the 4/5 of the oil reserves that are located off the islands, and how the rScotland would fare if they didn't have access to the revenues generated from Island Oil. Aside from that, the income from oil is fairly predictable (downwards) for more than a year or 2, so I would have expected that even if the Islands were prepared to share the oil with rScotland, then a reasonable business plan for a reasonable period ahead could be written.

So are you advocating independence for the Isles then ? Its not the first time I've heard that one....

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 17:37
If Scotland can have independence how could you deny the islands their right to self determination. If that's what they wanted surely it would be their democratic right to it along with all the trimmings an independent country would have.

Green_not_greed
01-Dec-13, 11:44
If Scotland can have independence how could you deny the islands their right to self determination. If that's what they wanted surely it would be their democratic right to it along with all the trimmings an independent country would have.

I'm not denying the islands rights to anything. Just highlighting what a complete mess this selfish SNP wish could cause. And if they don't get the oil rights, their main source of income vanishes.

orkneycadian
01-Dec-13, 13:59
Island independence is an interesting concept that does highlight some of the aspects of independence, that the Yes campaign would rather gloss over. For example, suggesting to rScotland that they might have no entitlement to the Islands oil, is just the same as Scotland suggesting that to the rUK. In the case of the latter, the Yes supporters would think that its rightfully Scotlands oil, but I doubt that they would want to consider, even for a second, that its Island oil and not rScotlands.

Like rScotland, Orkney and Shetland can look to their past to a time where we were not part of our present "parent union country". Before 1468, Orkney and Shetland were not part of Scotland, just the same as Scotland was not part of the UK before 1707. An important difference is that whilst Scotland fully signed up to the Union in 1707, there remains some doubt about Orkney and Shetlands legality of becoming part of Scotland. We were, after all, merely pawned until Norway could get the cash together for his daughters dowry.

I suspect that if there ever came a serious independence bid by the Islands, then the SNP would be forming the core of the "Better together" campaign. Thats where it becomes a bit hypocritical, as rScotland would become the poor piggy in the middle between the temporarily oil wealthy "United Islands" and the rUK.

Anyway, we are some way off Island Independence yet! ;) But it would have been interesting if Scotlands Future had actually acknowledged "Our Islands - Our Future - (Our Oil)", as it appears to be more important to the local authorities in Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles than the independence referendum is.

squidge
01-Dec-13, 17:11
I did get a copy downloaded but then after it opened I had ACCESS DENIED! (But my IP address was showing as in Laarndun)

Do you want me to email you a copy if you are having problems?

David Banks
01-Dec-13, 17:18
Island independence is an interesting concept that does highlight some of the aspects of independence, that the Yes campaign would rather gloss over.

I would like to know what assurances there are that the Highlands and Islands will be better off, i.e.: better represented than they currently are -- or will the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor entirely dominate the one-house system being proposed?

RagnarRocks
01-Dec-13, 18:04
I think the reality is most of the voters are in the major cities so that's where the majority of the money will go in my opinion even with independence the Highlands and Islands will be no better off. At the moment all I see is a Uk Parliament a welsh,Scottish assembly which is just vanity for a country you can fit comfortably into many of our European counterparts a few times over or for that fact many of the states of the USA. Just seems more politicians being divisive using nationalism so they can stick their greedy little snouts in another trough ! We would be better off making our elected representatives work for us rather than tow party lines and work together than all this silly name calling and party politicking. I want to see MPs who work for this country as a whole doing what is best for all of us regardless of childlike parties arguing all the time. And that goes for Conservative, Labour, SNP, UKIP the whole lot non excluded

little red one
01-Dec-13, 18:11
I think the reality is most of the voters are in the major cities so that's where the majority of the money will go in my opinion even with independence the Highlands and Islands will be no better off. At the moment all I see is a Uk Parliament a welsh,Scottish assembly which is just vanity for a country you can fit comfortably into many of our European counterparts a few times over or for that fact many of the states of the USA. Just seems more politicians being divisive using nationalism so they can stick their greedy little snouts in another trough ! We would be better off making our elected representatives work for us rather than tow party lines and work together than all this silly name calling and party politicking. I want to see MPs who work for this country as a whole doing what is best for all of us regardless of childlike parties arguing all the time. And that goes for Conservative, Labour, SNP, UKIP the whole lot non excluded

You mean being in office to serve rather than the being in power that modern politics seems to be about today... too many broken promises from all the major parties tbh, its just a gravy train where MP' s will say whatever they can to get votes.

RagnarRocks
01-Dec-13, 18:18
That's the one. I had a discussion with my sister who works for the council I said she worked for the people of the town she insisted she worked for the council and was in no way a servant for the public. This I find a corrosive train of thought when those who work and are paid by the taxpayer think they are entirely at the whim of political masters rather than the electorate.

little red one
01-Dec-13, 18:53
That's the one. I had a discussion with my sister who works for the council I said she worked for the people of the town she insisted she worked for the council and was in no way a servant for the public. This I find a corrosive train of thought when those who work and are paid by the taxpayer think they are entirely at the whim of political masters rather than the electorate.

My wife used to work for the council i just read that out to her and she was a bit suprised by your sisters comment, no offence meant.

Am i being daft or did i read a thread a while back saying that the queen has the rights to offshore natural resourses? i was just wondering how that would effect a truely independent Scotland.

RagnarRocks
01-Dec-13, 19:29
It surprised me as well but there you go life is always a matter of perspective ,You did read but I think you mean crown estates not the queen personally and that is a whole different can of worms of which I'm no expert but I'm sure if you look up crown estates seabed im sure you'll find the answer you're looking for. More to do with who owns which part of the sea bed and where you measure it from and too and of course who is asking the question and what their agenda is !

David Banks
04-Dec-13, 16:39
A couple of opportunities seem pretty good to me:

- a process to develop a (written) constitution

- "losing" the unelected house of lords

Mr P Cannop
04-Dec-13, 16:52
has everyone ordered their copy of the white paper ??

Big Gaz
04-Dec-13, 16:57
has everyone ordered their copy of the white paper ??

Yeah, Royal Mail have advertised for a 20 stone, super-fit he-man (or she-woman, gotta keep the PC brigade happy) on a part-time basis to deliver only the referendum books....

mi16
04-Dec-13, 18:03
has everyone ordered their copy of the white paper ??

Im not really interested in it, + I find andrex softer on the anus.

Better Out Than In
13-Dec-13, 15:32
Island independence is an interesting concept that does highlight some of the aspects of independence, that the Yes campaign would rather gloss over. For example, suggesting to rScotland that they might have no entitlement to the Islands oil, is just the same as Scotland suggesting that to the rUK. In the case of the latter, the Yes supporters would think that its rightfully Scotlands oil, but I doubt that they would want to consider, even for a second, that its Island oil and not rScotlands.

Like rScotland, Orkney and Shetland can look to their past to a time where we were not part of our present "parent union country". Before 1468, Orkney and Shetland were not part of Scotland, just the same as Scotland was not part of the UK before 1707. An important difference is that whilst Scotland fully signed up to the Union in 1707, there remains some doubt about Orkney and Shetlands legality of becoming part of Scotland. We were, after all, merely pawned until Norway could get the cash together for his daughters dowry.

I suspect that if there ever came a serious independence bid by the Islands, then the SNP would be forming the core of the "Better together" campaign. Thats where it becomes a bit hypocritical, as rScotland would become the poor piggy in the middle between the temporarily oil wealthy "United Islands" and the rUK.

Anyway, we are some way off Island Independence yet! ;) But it would have been interesting if Scotlands Future had actually acknowledged "Our Islands - Our Future - (Our Oil)", as it appears to be more important to the local authorities in Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles than the independence referendum is.

I am not precisely sure but believe Norwegian ownership, which included Caithness and Sutherland and parts of West coast would be the same. We were certainly part of Norway longer than we were Scottish (hence bilingual signs should be English and Norwegian). Anyway my point is it is not just Island oil but Island and Caithness oil. SO if you go independent can we come too please.