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ducati
24-Nov-13, 13:29
N Sturgeon, despite being told unequivically now by a number of people that aught to know, that it is unlikely the UK would enter into a currency union with an indy Scotland, still insists that the option will be negotiated.

Is she deaf? As far as I can fathom, there is no plan B.

No link, there was an interview on Sunday Politics Scotland.

tonkatojo
24-Nov-13, 13:53
Aye I saw that too, do you think she plays poker.?

orkneycadian
24-Nov-13, 14:09
Its the blinkers that the SNP have on in this matter that deeply concerns me. We can't be expected to vote for something, and only then find out what the terms of it are going to be. Currency is a major issue, and one that cannot just be deferred until "after negotiation". Its too late by then, the vote has been cast.

There are an increasing number of areas where the dogmatism of the SNP is both astounding and concerning. Without changing the topic or bringing in any personal agenda's, the example of a recent matter that the SNP went to public consultation on shows how undemocratic they really are. The public consultation returned 87% of respondents against the proposals, and the Association of Scottish Police Superintendants has expressed its serious doubts over the viability of the proposals, and of Police Scotlands resources to implement them. But yet, the SNP are continuing with their introduction anyway.

Without digressing into the actual proposal, its that level of arrogance and blinkered dogma that gives me serious concerns - Not just about independence, but the SNP in general. The more and more I hear, the more it appears that we are heading for a dictator state. Not the "freedom!" that William Wallace yelled with a red hot poker in places unmentionable....

Phill
24-Nov-13, 16:50
The EU is working towards a highly undemocratic statist superstate, of which, under current SNP proposals, an 'indy' Scotland will join. To my mind this brings two interesting negotiations, the negotiation into the EU (I would assume they would push the Euro as a primary factor) and the negotiation with the UK for currency.

In either case, it seems the SNP are willing to negotiate a key part of independent sovereignty into someone else' hands. Like a poor version of devo' max.

Oddquine
24-Nov-13, 18:24
N Sturgeon, despite being told unequivically now by a number of people that aught to know, that it is unlikely the UK would enter into a currency union with an indy Scotland, still insists that the option will be negotiated.

Is she deaf? As far as I can fathom, there is no plan B.

No link, there was an interview on Sunday Politics Scotland.

So unlikely means definitely no now, does it? In the end, if the vote is YES, the rUK will do what is the most sensible thing for the rUK...as it will in all things. Their current soundbites which tell us we can't do this, we won't get to do that and we are all doomed if we unplug from the UK teat...is simply pouting and footstamping. If there is a Yes vote..I guess we will be surprised at how different the actuality will be compared to the scaremongering and huffing soundbites to which we are currently being subjected.

Personally.....I'm hoping that by March 2016 we have plans set out for our own currency.....and a party standing for election in May 2016 which will implement them.....but who knows what will happen........not me....or you or anybody in the UK Parliament...many of whom are "unlikely" to be returning to Government after the 2015 election anyway.

Did you notice, btw...that two small countries Darling said last week were bust......have pushed the UK down from 13th to 16th in the Legatum Prosperity Index?

Alrock
24-Nov-13, 18:28
I would suggest adopting the Leaf at currency but due the lack of proper trees in the north it would concentrate wealth in the Central Belt so maybe the Pine Needle would be a better bet... :eek:

ducati
24-Nov-13, 19:03
So unlikely means definitely no now, does it? In the end, if the vote is YES, the rUK will do what is the most sensible thing for the rUK...as it will in all things. Their current soundbites which tell us we can't do this, we won't get to do that and we are all doomed if we unplug from the UK teat...is simply pouting and footstamping. If there is a Yes vote..I guess we will be surprised at how different the actuality will be compared to the scaremongering and huffing soundbites to which we are currently being subjected.

Personally.....I'm hoping that by March 2016 we have plans set out for our own currency.....and a party standing for election in May 2016 which will implement them.....but who knows what will happen........not me....or you or anybody in the UK Parliament...many of whom are "unlikely" to be returning to Government after the 2015 election anyway.

Did you notice, btw...that two small countries Darling said last week were bust......have pushed the UK down from 13th to 16th in the Legatum Prosperity Index?

That is the equivilent of what she is doing. Sticking your fingers in ears and going La La La La....

ducati
25-Nov-13, 16:17
Frankly, I couldn't care less. The more the SNP get in a fankle the better. Just more nails in the indy coffin.

Claw
25-Nov-13, 22:53
I would suggest adopting the Leaf at currency but due the lack of proper trees in the north it would concentrate wealth in the Central Belt so maybe the Pine Needle would be a better bet... :eek:

I have from a good source learned that the currency will be the Salmon(d) with 100 wee Ecks to the Salmon(d) 100 Salmon(d) will equal a sturgen. 100 strurgen will be called a windfarm

squidge
25-Nov-13, 23:18
It is not up to Westminster whether Scotland uses the pound or not. We can choose to use it if we want, with or without the "approval" or even the involvement of the Westminster Government. Sterling is a fully tradeable currency. ANYONE can use it.

The SNP are offering an arrangement where the UK can work with an Independent Scotland which would be beneficial to both parties, but they dont HAVE to. I actually think that Scotland should have its own currency - agreeing with the Green party on this.

The SNP want to keep the pound, ireland kept the pound, Hong kong uses the dollar without any input from the US, if Westminster cant or wont enter into a currency union then the SNP can still use the pound. I hope they wont, i hope that Scotland chooses its own currency - i think it would be better economically. But the thing is, we can choose to vote for the party which has the currency option which we choose, if thats what is important to us.

There are plenty of articles written by supporters of both sides as well as articles written by independent economists. If this is an issue which is vital for you to understand then do some research. Look it up, read around the subject, talk to representatives of both YES Scotland and Better Together. You can email both organisations and you will get a reply. Speak to Green Party members, SDA and SSP members and Labour for Independence members: talk to the Scottish Labour Party, the Lib Dems and the Scottish tories. Find out for yourself.

RagnarRocks
25-Nov-13, 23:26
Using the pound means you have to acccept that the BoE is lender of last resort which curtails a countries ability to do as it wishes with regard to taxation etc. This would seem to be at odds with wanting to be independent, it isn't the usage of the currency itself that's the problem its the conditions that come along with it. If an independent Scotland wanted to raise taxes and interest rates whilst going on a spending spree, or for that fact any other major financial decision, it would then find that the Pound would severely curtail its ability to do as it wishes as the BoE would start demanding that it kept its economic decisions in parity with the Uks so as not to destabilise the Pound.

piratelassie
26-Nov-13, 01:21
Regarding currency in an Independent Scotland, a plan B will not be required. Its in the rest of the UK's interest to have an Independent Scotland use the pound, obviously.

Moira
26-Nov-13, 02:31
Regarding anything to do with "Independence" the point is moot, it's not going to happen.

What a waste of time, money & emotions from all involved in the greatest of non debates.

RagnarRocks
26-Nov-13, 08:48
Regarding currency in an Independent Scotland, a plan B will not be required. Its in the rest of the UK's interest to have an Independent Scotland use the pound, obviously.And you base that statement on ?? Or is your obviously a universal obvious which seems to miss all the relevant information and other people's version of obvious !

guidinglight
26-Nov-13, 09:06
Its all about Salmond wanting to go down in history as the first President of indy Scotland, Why not ask all the Scots in England what they think, after all there are more of us their, than here.

squidge
26-Nov-13, 09:06
Regarding anything to do with "Independence" the point is moot, it's not going to happen.What a waste of time, money & emotions from all involved in the greatest of non debates. It is a debate worth having whether we get it or not. You may think its a non debate but there are people energised about politics in a way they havent been before. Young people, who have never voted before getting involved, talking about the issues, arguing about the sort of future they want to see. We have people manning stands in the street who have never campaigned before, talking to strangers about politics. We have passion and interest, debates happening, REAL people who arent politicians galvanised into action on both sides of the debate. Thats not the sign of a non debate. Whatever side you are on, whoever wins or loses, i hope political engagement in Scotland will keep the sense of possibility that this debate is encouraging.

RagnarRocks
26-Nov-13, 09:40
So people arguing is a good thing I'd prefer sensible debate !
Lowering the voting age is just a cynical ploy to get votes it smacks of opportunism.
If sensible debate was going on it would be fine but I see a lot of name calling and facts & figures being skewed .
If Scotland does get independence what's to stop it sliding back to the internicine warfare that troubled it for so long before union the history of Scotland isn't bathed in Braveheart courage more centuries of squabbling and warfare with petty recriminations.Already there are rumblings from the Islands about how they want to do things,the north doesn't like all the power being gathered down south and so it goes on and on. At best it will be a close call hardly the resounding vote of confidence you'd want and will then lead to more simmering anger from one side or the other.

squidge
26-Nov-13, 10:33
So people arguing is a good thing I'd prefer sensible debate ! Arguing is good - we need a bit or arguing and debate and passion absolutely


Lowering the voting age is just a cynical ploy to get votes it smacks of opportunism.

Hardly - the SNP have had the policy in their manifestos to lower the voting age since the late 80s. It was a policy that Nicola Sturgeon championed when she was their youth spokesperson. It has been consistent in their election information for many years - many years BEFORE there was the remotest chance that they might get to lead a majority government - before even there was a Scottish parliament. If its opportunism then someone has a cristal ball. If you add to that the fact that most commentators believe that the 16/17 year olds are likely to vote NO it suggests it would have been a "cynical ploy" to have conveniently forgotten about that policy at the point they were drawing up the Edinburgh Agreement. This would have been easy to do as the Westminster government didnt want the franchise extended.



If sensible debate was going on it would be fine but I see a lot of name calling and facts & figures being skewed

If you attend some of the many meetings that are going on - you will see sensible debate. If you only do online stuff like here then you will see name calling. Facts and figures are rarely deliberately lied about - that is the reserve of Ian Duncan Smith and the DWP who cant tell the truth about anything it seems - but I digress. Figures can and are interpreted differently. There is only one truth about the Economy and Independence to date and that is that In an Independent Scotland money raised in Scotland would be spent on Scottish priorities decided at the ballot box by Scottish voters and implemented by a Scottish Parliament in a way that doesnt happen now.


If Scotland does get independence what's to stop it sliding back to the internicine warfare that troubled it for so long before union the history of Scotland isn't bathed in Braveheart courage more centuries of squabbling and warfare with petty recriminations.

Are you really saying that Scotland has learned nothing in three hundred years? Are you really saying that the society we have today is the same as that we had 300/400 even 700 years ago? I dont think you really believe that. We are a modern country and the plans so far are for us to be forward looking, outward reaching modern democracy. That is what the YES campaign is about. How we get there depends on the politicians - SNP, SDA, SSP,Green and also Lib dems, tories and labour parties because after a YES vote these parties would be involved in the negotiations and the campaigning for the first parliament of an Independent Scotland. As for Braveheart...... well the only place I ever see Bravehehart used as a reference in the Independence Debate is by those opposing Independence . It factors not one iota in the YES campaign and again - Im sure you know that.



Already there are rumblings from the Islands about how they want to do things,the north doesn't like all the power being gathered down south and so it goes on and on.

Good!!!! People's grumblings are what holds our politicians to account. Lobbying, pressure groups diversity of opinions and wanting to do things differently is vital in a fully functioning democracy. You were only recently talking about a swiss style form of democracy where people's views are heard. I dont want a country where no one disagrees, where the policies that are decided for our country take no notice of the needs of different parts of the country. in an Independent Scotland the politicians will be more accountable to the Scottish Electorate than they the Westminster politicians are - simply because of their proximity and the percentages of the vote that the populations in different parts of Scotland make up.




At best it will be a close call hardly the resounding vote of confidence you'd want and will then lead to more simmering anger from one side or the other.

And that will be the job of those in power to resolve but resolve it will. This is not a violent revolution. There is no war, there have been no bombs, no ethnic cleansing, no imprisonment of those with differing views - we should ALL be very proud of that whichever side of the debate we stand on. This is not a Referendum based on nationality it is inclusive and you and everyone who thinks like you - that independence is not for them - should be really proud they are getting the chance to vote NO, that the decision is to be a democratic one, decided by the people of Scotland in the way it SHOULD be - at the ballot box.


Its EXCITING - cant you feel it?????;)

golach
26-Nov-13, 10:38
Its EXCITING - cant you feel it?????;)

Even bigger yawn Squidge

squidge
26-Nov-13, 10:38
Well Golach Yawn it may be for OLD people like you. You might want to stick with your slippers and telly mate. Me??? lol Im a young thing! ;) I have a voice and a passion for fairness and equality and compassion and Im excited!

Mrs Bradey
26-Nov-13, 11:00
Well Golach Yawn it may be for OLD people like you. You might want to stick with your slippers and telly mate. Me??? lol Im a young thing! ;) I have a voice and a passion for fairness and equality and compassion and Im excited! go squidge! I will be voting NO but I admire your passion and desire for open debate/argument and democracy I hope you don't win though.

mi16
26-Nov-13, 13:09
I couldnt be more underwhelmed by the whole independance debate.
There will be no independance.

squidge
26-Nov-13, 14:25
What a shame mi16. What a shame you cant find anything to raise your passions about staying in the union. What a shame you cant get animated about Britain and how much more beneficial it would be to remain as part of the UK. What a shame. Im sorry you feel that way. If you want to remain part of the Uk then why arent you as passionate about that as others are about independence?

ducati
26-Nov-13, 14:47
What a shame mi16. What a shame you cant find anything to raise your passions about staying in the union. What a shame you cant get animated about Britain and how much more beneficial it would be to remain as part of the UK. What a shame. Im sorry you feel that way. If you want to remain part of the Uk then why arent you as passionate about that as others are about independence?

Er.... Why would you be passionate about staying the same? The emotion is just annoyance at the ones who can't hack it and want to change (but not very much). :roll:

orkneycadian
26-Nov-13, 20:21
Jeremy Whine on Radio 2 seemed to be quite passionate today when interviewing John Swinney. It seemed he couldn't understand why the SNP would want independence, but still keep things (like currency) the same. He argued very strongly that keeping things the same is not independence. I see his point.

ducati
26-Nov-13, 20:32
I think the SNP have proved today the contemp they have for the Scottish voter. Instead of addressing any of the major issues, they have offered welfare sweeties instead.

RagnarRocks
26-Nov-13, 21:32
I think to me it was the sheer arrogance of the man when asked a question he just referred to pages, those answers on the pages are up for negotiation currency, EU, NATO etc etc no defined answers just the usual it will happen because we say so totally ignoring the fact that on each point there is an opposing view. Yes he wants all these things for Scotland's population about 5 million of which roughly half may agree with him 2.5 million and is quite happy to stamp over the democratic rights of the other 60 million that make up the rest of the UK. All on the promise of it will be better because I say so.

mi16
26-Nov-13, 21:48
What a shame mi16. What a shame you cant find anything to raise your passions about staying in the union. What a shame you cant get animated about Britain and how much more beneficial it would be to remain as part of the UK. What a shame. Im sorry you feel that way. If you want to remain part of the Uk then why arent you as passionate about that as others are about independence?Why is it a shame?Independance won't happen, I can't get exited about it all, come this time 2016 the union will still be the union.The only worthwhile thing of it all will be that fat ecks position will be untenable after 2014's vote

essex boy
28-Nov-13, 23:14
The EU is working towards a highly undemocratic statist superstate, of which, under current SNP proposals, an 'indy' Scotland will join. To my mind this brings two interesting negotiations, the negotiation into the EU (I would assume they would push the Euro as a primary factor) and the negotiation with the UK for currency.

In either case, it seems the SNP are willing to negotiate a key part of independent sovereignty into someone else' hands. Like a poor version of devo' max.
Was'nt it shown on the news that Scotland would have to 'apply' to join the EU, with no guarantee of membership? If not allowed into the EU, would that be the end of the farm subs? Which must be a huge consideration for alot of people in the north.

ducati
29-Nov-13, 13:57
I would imagine that after the last couple of days burping over currency by certain SNP spokespeople, that plans are now afoot to make damn sure that currency union will never happen. The SNP have a particular problem in as much as they need to be seen to be tough on their opponents by their supporters but in the unlikely event blah blah are going to be relying on the goodwill of the very same people. Something I believe will be a very rare commodity indeed.

Kenn
29-Nov-13, 15:35
Bank of England ? That's three very simple words.
Sterling? It's a currency regulated by the above.
United Kingdom ? If there is a yes vote that becomes void and could pose several constitutional problems.
European Union? A group of states that use a common currency and are moving towards federalism and I was thinking independence was being broached.
Non nuclear ? Just how much compensation would be payable to The MOD if Faslane is to be closed and how many jobs would be lost?
Oil revenues? A price per barrel that is floated on world markets and has no fixed or fixable rate so impossible to forecast.

I could go on but I have an excellent book that requires my attention and I'm getting more than a little peeved with the whole circus.

justlikethat!
29-Nov-13, 15:51
Well Golach Yawn it may be for OLD people like you. You might want to stick with your slippers and telly mate. Me??? lol Im a young thing! ;) I have a voice and a passion for fairness and equality and compassion and Im excited! is it fair England pay £7.85 per item on a prescription. pay to park in Hospitals. pay to go over bridges. pay for education .Scotland may have to pay to if thay get indi

squidge
29-Nov-13, 23:55
is it fair England pay £7.85 per item on a prescription. pay to park in Hospitals. pay to go over bridges. pay for education .Scotland may have to pay to if thay get indi

Lets look at this. Is it fair? Absolutely not. However, In scotland we voted for devolution in 1997. We also voted in the last election for the Scottish Government, a party which gave us these things within the budget. Scotland voted on all these issues - they were clearly stated in the manifesto of the SNP as priorities and Scotland voted in the SNP who prioritised their spending to allow these things to be done.

So is it fair that in England people have to pay for prescriptions? No. However the UK voted in a parliament for which these issues were not a prioritiy - Scotland made a slight difference to the 2010 election in that it changed the result from a Tory majority to a hung parliament. If these issues were not a priority to the majority of UK voters - unlike in Scotland where they Were - then there is nothing Scotland can do to prevent the Tory/libdem coalition from continuing these policies.

You could just as well ask is it fair that 90% of Scottish MPs voted against the Bedroom tax and yet Scotland HAS the bedroom tax. Is that Fair? No

In the white paper the government gives a commitment to a written constitution which will enshrine rights for citizens of Scotland - the right to education and healthcare for example. This constitution will mean that it is less likely Scottish citizens ill suffer the privatisation of the NHS that is being implemented south of the border. This written constitution will be a priority for an Independent Scotland and there is a commitment that there will be direct involvement by the people of Scotland - not just politicians and business people but people like you and me and so, if the things you mention are important to you then you will have your chance to put your point across and ensure that free education, free hospital parking and free prescriptions are included in that constitution.

There are a whole load of questions answered on the constitution and about the issues you are concerned about but a quote from page 98 states that initial priorities for an Independent Scotland will be to "maintain a commitment to protecting free personal care, free prescriptions, free higher education tuition for Scottish Students and free concessionary travel"

IF you downlad the PDF of the white paper there is a "find" function which enables you to search for specific issues.

Happy Reading. :D

squidge
30-Nov-13, 00:22
Currency

Some clear facts about the currency issue

1.
keeping things the same is not independence. Keeping the pound will not mean keeping everything the same. Whilst the currency union would remain - Scotland would have tax raising powers that it doesnt have now and wont have if we vote No. Even under the proposed new arrangements Scotland oul only have control of 15% of its taxation. If we vote YES we will have control of 100% of taxation. We would also have the power to spend that money as we choose. We only have the power to spend SOME of it just now. Thats not keeping things the same.

2. The pound can be used whether the Westminster Government Agrees or doesnt

3. Not one single UK Government Minister has said that Scotland WILL NOT BE ALLOWED a currency union. When pushed for a definite No there is never one forthcoming.

4. The Bank of England is not "ruled by Westminster politicians" it makes independent decisions. One of which, interestingly,
is to begin talks with the Scottish Government in contrast to the position of the UK government.

5. The fact is that the Scottish Government believes that a currency union is the best option for Scotland (and also for England) and so that is where its negotiating position is starting from. This is not LA LA LA - it is setting out their position in a clear and unambiguous manner. As the negotiating hasnt even started yet there is no possible need for the Scottish Government to have any other position. Any of you who think they should have a PUBLIC fall back position must have no clue whatsoever about negotiating anything.

6. If the currency union does not work then we - the people of Scotland - will be free to choose something else. We cant do that without Independence.

Finally there is loads of information on the currency issue in the White Paper - page 130 onwards sets out the options which were considered, Chapter three discusses currency and there are answers to questions also

Happy Reading :)

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 00:22
Well constitutions are very nice bits of paper but lets look at the problems the good old USA has with a constitution cast in stone and unable to change as time progress's. The reality is if your state is bankrupt or verging on it how can you guarantee anything, most socialist states around the world have failed due to overspending and idealism.whilst capitalism is not perfect the countries which have embraced it generally enjoy a better standard of living than those who haven't.The whole concept of Scotland is demanding independence is farcical as so many people who were born in Scotland now live elsewhere in the world but are denied what many would consider a birth right, but lots of people who aren't Scottish by birth but live here are allowed to vote. How do you square that little circle with the what's right and fair. It's all idealistic nonsense which is being slowly ripped apart by thinking people who realise that most of the promises are not attainable without negotiation with a country that will no longer have the desire to do as the Scottish people want. Yes the ruk has agreed to be fair but that doesn't mean you can keep everything you want. The £ is a prime example SNP say they will keep the pound but no one outside the SNP seems to agree with that point. The EU has made it quite clear you'd have to renegotiate as a new state. NATO won't let you in without the use of Faslane. Then you have Scotland's ability to raise taxes borrow money.Yes there's oil and gas around but that's running our and renewables can be purchased cheaper from other sources. So all in all you can write whatever you like in a constitution but actually making it real and affordable is another matter all I've read so far is a huge wish list based on demands by the SNP totally disregarding the democratic rights of the rest of the UK or Europe. If Scotland does become Independent it will start off in deficit and will have to claw its way out of that by borrowing, but who is going to lend you money ? RUk I doubt it, the international markets well maybe but at high interest rates and so it goes on and on all dreams with no substance

golach
30-Nov-13, 00:26
Squidge, can you not understand, the "white paper" has shown us all its a wish list nothing more, and Eck showing a fake letter to Holyrood , again shows how fake the Snp are

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 00:49
Oh yes let's not forget the letter printed off a website! Just what you want Alex Salmonds government by google .

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 00:58
Squidge can you honestly say you're qualified to discuss what the Bank of England can and cannot do ? Scotland wouldn't be able to raise its own taxes etc under a currency union as the BOE would be lender of last resort for Scotland so it would have to do as its told or no currency union also you seem to have forgotten that Ruk has to agree to any of this you can't just demand currency union or do as you please whilst using another counties currency. What other currency do you suggest the Euro that depends on 27 other counties allowing it. Also who will lend you the money as a newly independent country with a deficit and no fiscal track record ?BTW since when did you think that the BoE was independent of decision making by parliament the RUk always has final say over what happens to its currency you seem to be somewhat naive to the realities of what Independence is. It means you are brand new stand alone country.And quite a few politicians have said a currency union is unlikely

squidge
30-Nov-13, 01:12
Goodness Ragnar - are you on that Ithingie again??? My iphone drives me nuts with its inability to put in paragraphs too - Im sure you feel the same. :D

Lets see if I can unpick some of the issues.


Well constitutions are very nice bits of paper but lets look at the problems the good old USA has with a constitution cast in stone and unable to change as time progress's.

And yet all the other EU member states and all the Commonwealth states have a written constitution. Many experts are of the opinion that the drafting and implementation of a new constitution in Iceland has contributed to their recovery from the financial mess they were in and the excellent growth that their economy is experiencing.



The whole concept of Scotland is demanding independence is farcical as so many people who were born in Scotland now live elsewhere in the world but are denied what many would consider a birth right, but lots of people who aren't Scottish by birth but live here are allowed to vote. How do you square that little circle with the what's right and fair.

Because what is right and fair is that the people who live in a country, contribute to the prosperity and the social fabric of a country and are investing their futures, their childrens futures in that country vote on the future of that country. Those people who were born here but dont live here, can do exactly the same with the country they have chosen to live in. They may love Scotland and no one disputes that - but they do not live here. A person who migrates here - lives here, works here, pays taxes here, is part of the community here absolutely should have the right to vote here. To do otherwise would turn this referendum into something which I know you dont want and which many are very wary of - a referendum based on nationality and that would take us into something altogether much darker and more sinister.


Yes the ruk has agreed to be fair but that doesn't mean you can keep everything you want.

Of course it doesnt - that is what negotiation is about. You negotiate a compromise and a fair settlement. There is however the option for Scotland to take none of the assets and none of the debt either. There are conflicting opinions on all the issues you raise and they are all discussed in some detail in the White paper and in previous publications by the Scottish Government. But your assertions that Scotland WONT be allowed into the EU and WONT be allowed into NATO and WONT be allowed to use the pound and WONT be this and WONT be that are simply that. There is evidence to the contrary and plenty of it Ragnar - you take your choice having read around the subject as to what experts are saying and what other experts are saying. Thats what I advise other people to do. Read around the subject, go to meetings and hear what the people there are saying, do your research and make your own mind up - you have and I have so others need to do that too.



If Scotland does become Independent it will start off in deficit

Thats assuming that the negotiations are successful and Scotland doesnt end up walking away without any debt. I would not like that to happen.
The white paper points out that Scotland's fiscal deficit is forecast to be between 1.6 and 2.4 per cent of of GDP compared to the UK which is forecast to be 3.4 per cent of GDP. The average across G7 countries is forecast to be 3.2 per cent. Seems we wont be in such a bad place after all. Again all the figures are referenced in the White Paper so you can follow the sources and check them out. :)

Happy Reading :D

squidge
30-Nov-13, 01:58
Squidge can you honestly say you're qualified to discuss what the Bank of England can and cannot do ?

Not particularly Ragnar - i dont think I have done that.... Are you?


Scotland wouldn't be able to raise its own taxes etc under a currency union I am sorry Ragnar - I dont think I made myself clear - What I said was Scotland would have tax raising powers - ie it would be able to raise its own money from its own taxation policies rather than simply being doled out money from Westminster. I wasnt talking about a tax rate rise. I am sorry if that was not clear :)



also you seem to have forgotten that Ruk has to agree to any of this On the contrary I have talked about the negotiation as a process which hasnt even started yet. It seems to be you who is suggesting that all the decisions have been made to say no to everything.... Im just waiting to see.



you can't just demand currency union or do as you please whilst using another counties currency. Actually - you CAN just choose to use a currency without any input from the "home" country. As I said a few days ago



The SNP want to keep the pound, ireland kept the pound, Hong kong uses the dollar without any input from the US, if Westminster cant or wont enter into a currency union then the SNP can still use the pound.

There are plenty of articles written by supporters of both sides as well as articles written by independent economists. If this is an issue which is vital for you to understand then do some research. Look it up, read around the subject, talk to representatives of both YES Scotland and Better Together. You can email both organisations and you will get a reply. Speak to Green Party members, SDA and SSP members and Labour for Independence members: talk to the Scottish Labour Party, the Lib Dems and the Scottish tories. Find out for yourself.


What other currency do you suggest the Euro that depends on 27 other counties allowing it. I am sure that you know that I would prefer a new currency for a whole range of reasons that are recorded on this board. I am equally sure that you KNOW the euro would not be an option even if ANY pro independence party wanted it - which they dont.



Also who will lend you the money as a newly independent country with a deficit and no fiscal track record There is a fiscal track record - there is plenty of information about Scotland's economic performance to date. Also you speak as if Scotland has nothing, is nothing and will never be anything - is that what you think? Scotland has plenty of desirable resources and a growing economy which will grow better with the power to make changes that will encourage the growth. If countries which are in a worse position that Scotland, without Scotland's resources can borrow money then Scotland will be able to do so too - in or out of a currency union!!!


since when did you think that the BoE was independent of decision making by parliament the RUk always has final say over what happens to its currency The Bank of England is NOT indpendent of decision making by the UK government. It does however do exactly what I said - it makes independent decisions. The politicians decide the targets and its the bank that decides how best to meet those targets - they set interest rates and the like. They have a committee that meets and decides the way forward and they can also make independent decisions to meet with the Scottish Government for example.



you seem to be somewhat naive to the realities of what Independence is. It means you are brand new stand alone country. :D I hope so.


And quite a few politicians have said a currency union is unlikely But none of them - NONE of them - not the PM, not the Chancellor and not the Scottish Secretary when pushed on the debate the other night - nobody is saying it is a definite NO. As i have said - the SNP have stated their position. The UK government is stating its - its unlikely but they are still leaving themselves somewhere to go on this. Done any negotiating Ragnar? Im sure you must have, you are well experienced in loads of stuff. Did you reveal your fall back position before you walked in the room? I bet you didnt. You are far too smart for that.

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 09:00
Well squidqe as a qualified financial consultant I have a rough idea what I'm talking about and yes I've negotiated plenty in my years I'm also aware that when you go into a negotiation you're unlikely to get what you want with a weak bargaining position. Unless you know something I don't Scotland has no fiscal track record in its own right, its all been tied into the wider uk economy for years. The BoE won't make an independent decision on a currency union that's when parliament will over ride it has decision making on day to day running and rate setting but not currency union. You're begining to sound like Mr Salmond when the string of your ideas are gently tugged they unravel. Also on borrowing money sure an independent Scotland with its own currency could borrow money but the question is at what % rate. Trust me when I tell you it won't be as favourable as rUK you'd be in the wonga club international borrowers. As for your natural resources you can only count that money once and spend it once in the real world so despite all the oil and gas revenue an independent Scotland would run at a deficit that means you're borrowing from day one in debt from day one and those natural resources are running out.Personally I'm ambivalent toward Scotland's independence i was born in England and don't really feel I have the right to vote over natural born Scottish men but if it goes wrong I can move south and not worry as I suspect will many others. I've lived in other countries and speak other languages so its more about the society I'm living in than Scotland v England. What I can tell you is that your perceived it will be so much better argument is weak very weak it sounds more like nationalist ranting which worries me. Kosovo had a similar problem if you remember that, so don't tell me you've learnt so much in 300 yrs human nature doesn't work that way, if you think I'm wrong tell me why certain football songs are banned in Scotland and two well known teams are akin to a battle front if the fans where to meet. It is never dead it just sits beneath the surface ready to flare up with the right spark .You want a brighter future you work closely with your neighbours not kick them to touch so you can strut for a few minutes before the reality sets in .

squidge
30-Nov-13, 09:58
Well squidqe as a qualified financial consultant I have a rough idea what I'm talking about Then I bow to your superior knowledge and ask for your advice. Is it wrong to say that the Bank of England makes independent decisions? Was I wrong about the committee? I thought that the bank was given the ability to make independent decisions about interest rates in 1997. Is that not right Ragnar?



and yes I've negotiated plenty in my years I'm also aware that when you go into a negotiation you're unlikely to get what you want with a weak bargaining position. Unless you know something I don't Scotland has no fiscal track record in its own right, its all been tied into the wider uk economy for years. But it does HAVE a fiscal track record. Since devolution Scotland has made its own decisions on some issues and managed its own budget. ITs not the track record of an Independent Country but its not nothing either.


The BoE won't make an independent decision on a currency union that's when parliament will over ride it has decision making on day to day running and rate setting but not currency union. So the Bank of England does have Independent decision making powers then? I thought you said above that it didnt.... Of course the politicians will make a decision on currency union..... Im glad you agree that the decision is still to be made. Which was the point I made in the first place.


You're begining to sound like Mr Salmond when the string of your ideas are gently tugged they unravel. Also on borrowing money sure an independent Scotland with its own currency could borrow money but the question is at what % rate. Trust me when I tell you it won't be as favourable as rUK you'd be in the wonga club international borrowers.. As for your natural resources you can only count that money once and spend it once in the real world so despite all the oil and gas revenue an independent Scotland would run at a deficit that means you're borrowing from day one in debt from day one and those natural resources are running out

Im not sure about unravel Ragnar - so far I think you have confirmed much of what I have said - the Bank of England DOES make independent decisions, negotiations are not even started never mind finished. Independence isnt and I have said this before the end of the process - its the start. As for favourable interest rates - well we heard so much about Scotland not keeping its AAA credit rating, and then the UK lost that and we havent heard a peep since. The reason for that is because that is not the only issue that affects borrowing rates. If you can tell me what the borrowing rate of both the UK and Scotland would be after Independence that would maybe help people to decide about this issue. There is lots of information about borrowing in the white paper - use the find function to look for this subject.


Personally I'm ambivalent toward Scotland's independence i was born in England and don't really feel I have the right to vote over natural born Scottish men but if it goes wrong I can move south and not worry as I suspect will many others. I've lived in other countries and speak other languages so its more about the society I'm living in than Scotland v England. What I can tell you is that your perceived it will be so much better argument is weak very weak it sounds more like nationalist ranting which worries me. Kosovo had a similar problem if you remember that, so don't tell me you've learnt so much in 300 yrs human nature doesn't work that way, if you think I'm wrong tell me why certain football songs are banned in Scotland and two well known teams are akin to a battle front if the fans where to meet. It is never dead it just sits beneath the surface ready to flare up with the right spark .You want a brighter future you work closely with your neighbours not kick them to touch so you can strut for a few minutes before the reality sets in .

You seem very confused on this issue Ragnar I think. You have raised concerns before and do so here about Kosovo and the dangers of an ethnic based nationalism and yet seem to think that the fact this referendum is not about nationality is a bad thing.

I too was born in England Ragnar, I live here, I have five children who live here, three were born in England but have lived here most of their lives and two who were born here. I, and they, absolutely should have the right to vote on the future of the country we live in and contribute to and the country we are making our future in. Those who have chosen to live elsewhere can do exactly that in the place that they have chosen for their future. If the vote is no I wont be disappearing off south though, Ill be working with what we have to create that better future that I have worked for all my life - wherever I have been located. Have i said it WILL be better? What I have said is that Independence gives us an opportunity to do things differently - we cannot do that within the union - there is NO opportunity for change if we vote no. We will have what we have now and that isnt good enough for me. If it is for you then that is fine. You worry about currency and interest rates and borrowing and credit scores. I will concentrate on the things that are important to me - creating a fairer and more equal society, reducing child poverty, working to ensure that everyone, whoever they are has the opportunity to achieve their full potential. If you think that the argument that we need to do this is weak then thats fine Ragnar - I dont think you are wrong - i simply disagree:D

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 11:31
I'm not confused about anything the BoE makes day to day running decisions but currency union is a different issue altogether. As I said there is no fiscal track record for a newly formed independent a scotland remove the Barnett formula Scotland's finances look entirely different. The BoE does not have the power to form a currency union without parliament you seem confused as to how much power the BoE has. Ruk population is approx 60 mill Scotland approx 5 London is a finance centre Scotland has no such centre nor the economic power of ruk it is naive to think you can borrow at the same rates when your credit rating is downgraded.As for the nationalism bit yes it should be about indpendence but nationalism is creeping in and will increase there's no confusion over any aspect. I've yet to see a credible answer for anything except wishful thinking and whose idea of a fairer more equal society are you basing this on yours, mine, Albert einsteins, josef stalins ? Do you claim to hold the ideal view on fairness for all people ?If the Uk hasn't improved in all these years why do I see nice houses cars people wearing decent clothing, it would appear youve never seen real poverty i can assure you it does not exsist in this country. Where are the grim Victorian slums and poverty ? once again grossly distorting reality withful thinking and day dreams does not a successful economy make, by your own admission non of these so called benefits are agreed and need to be negotiated so at the moment you actually have nothing but hopes until anything is ratified

squidge
30-Nov-13, 12:12
Ok Ragnar, is any of what I said about the Bank of England wrong? I said that the Government decides the targets but the Bank decides how to achieve those targets... Interest rates for example. Is that wrong? I said that the Bank can make independent decisions, one oc which is to talk to the Scottish government. Is that wrong? I said the Bank was given this independence in 1997. Is this wrong? I also said that these decisions on monetary issues are taken by a committee.... Is that wrong? I did NOT and never had said that the Bank will decide on a currency union. The Governments of both countries will negotiate from there starting positions is actually what I have said. Is any of that wrong? In your position as an expert of course.

Phill
30-Nov-13, 12:19
What about BitCoin?

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 12:21
The Bank of England sets interest rates your correct and an independent Scotland if allowed a currency union would be bound by those rates not free to set its own rates it would also have to follow fiscal rules imposed from ruk .The BoE would not be allowed to enter into a currency union without political involvement.So yes decisions are made by committee but that has little or nothing to do with an independent Scotland getting a currency union.The fact is Scotland is unlikely to get an currency union which has been repeated from both sides of the house and the welsh assembly also. So trying to say you'll negotiate with a country that doesn't wish to negotiate is patently ridiculous. The SNP have issued a white paper with no figures attached to it you can read it front to back,back to front but not one item is costed its all for negotiation. Would you agree to sell me your house and be legally bound by it, then agree the terms ? I don't think you would and this is what the SNP is asking Scotland to do.

ducati
30-Nov-13, 12:25
What about BitCoin?

Nah, too easy to lose.

Phill
30-Nov-13, 12:48
Nah, too easy to lose.True. Got a hard drive full of them somewhere!

squidge
30-Nov-13, 15:01
The Bank of England sets interest rates your correct and an independent Scotland if allowed a currency union would be bound by those rates not free to set its own rates it would also have to follow fiscal rules imposed from ruk .The BoE would not be allowed to enter into a currency union without political involvement.So yes decisions are made by committee but that has little or nothing to do with an independent Scotland getting a currency union.The fact is Scotland is unlikely to get an currency union which has been repeated from both sides of the house and the welsh assembly also. So trying to say you'll negotiate with a country that doesn't wish to negotiate is patently ridiculous. The SNP have issued a white paper with no figures attached to it you can read it front to back,back to front but not one item is costed its all for negotiation. Would you agree to sell me your house and be legally bound by it, then agree the terms ? I don't think you would and this is what the SNP is asking Scotland to do.So, NOTHING i said is wrong. Then Im glad we agree.

As for negotiating positions..... Both sides accept that after a YES result there will be negotiations. Thats actually part of the Edinburgh Agreement already signed and passed into law. Whether the rUK want to negotiate or not, they are committed to doing so. Scottish Government has set out its terms and Westminster has said it is unlikely but as no FORMAL negotiations have started then the Scottish Government has absolutely no need to declare its fall back position. This isnt rocket science and the attempts to portray it as a "decision made" is nonsense.

Me? I dont actually care what currency we use TBH. My preference is for a new scottish currency but it isnt a deal breaker for me. There are other issues which matter to me more than currency.

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 17:05
Just to state the prime minister has said a currency union is unlikely,yes the govt has agreed to negotiations but currency union would be unlikely as it would be against the interests of ruk to have a foreign govt able to veto any decisions the BoE wants to make or ruk government. I wonder why you'd want independence and not care what currency is used as a countries currency and ability to use that currency is what makes all the other social reforms possible, they all cost and if you have a worthless currency then you can't do as you wish, if you're dictated what to do with your interest rates and fiscal policy the you can't do what you wish to do. So I'd say currency and fiscal policy should be at the core of decision making. The fact that the SNP has published a paper strong on rhetoric but short on detail shows it for what it really is inept.Whilst I accept that your facts are correct they bear no significance on the independence debate as this vote is for Scottish independence not the ability of Scotland to hang on to which parts of ruk they wish and do what they want on everything else. Yes negotiations are enshrined in the Edinburgh agreement but that is all that's agreed to hold talks no more and since when can 8.6% of the current population dictate what the other 91.4% do. Negotiations are based on power broking an independent Scotlamd would be entering the talks from a very weak position so is unlikely to get what it wants on the terms it wants. The same came be said for the EU for NATO all the world wide trade agreements held by Ruk non of these would be negotiated from a position of power.It's all well and good saying you care not for one part but its the whole package and at the moment no fallback position is a serious oversight even Alex Salmonds advisor has admitted that point.If you want no bedroom tax no prescription charges a free NHS nationalised Royal Mail and all the other social projects the money has to come from somewhere, that's unless you wish to end up like Greece or one of the other Countries in dire straights due to woeful financial mismanagement.

squidge
30-Nov-13, 19:20
I wonder why you'd want independence and not care what currency is used as a countries currency and ability to use that currency is what makes all the other social reforms possible, they all cost and if you have a worthless currency then you can't do as you wish, if you're dictated what to do with your interest rates and fiscal policy the you can't do what you wish to do. So I'd say currency and fiscal policy should be at the core of decision making.

They are at the core of YOUR decision making Ragnar but not mine. See for me, I want to know the sort of society that an Independent Scotland will be. The policies and attitudes that those forming the first government of Independent Scotland are what I am interested in. From those policies I have then looked to see what affect currency will have on the ability to deliver the type of society I want to see. So the options are either the pound or Scotland's own currency. All the evidence I have read and there is loads of it, indicates that there are pluses and minuses for both options. I think the BEST option is for Scotland to have its own currency but there are plenty of economists who think the currency union or even the pound WITHOUT a currency union is the best option. There are restrictions and benefits to all three. Whichever is decided upon will allow us to reform society and change things regardless because its about priorities and decisions on how we spend the money we have got and how we raise money. If we have to do things slower because we are in currency union, or because we have had to develop our own currency and therefore we need time to create the right financial environment for that then I am happy with that.


Whilst I accept that your facts are correct they bear no significance on the independence debate as this vote is for Scottish independence not the ability of Scotland to hang on to which parts of ruk they wish and do what they want on everything else.

Actually yes it is - Scotland can hang onto the pound, the monarchy and many other systems IF we - the Scottish electorate WANT to. If we want those things then the SNP will be voted into the first government of an Independent Scotland - if we dont want them then they wont. Although you say that independence isnt about keeping what we want of the way the UK does things and doing other stuff our own ay, it actually is about that. Scotland can hang onto the pound, the monarchy driving on the left, eating yorkshire pudding and many other things IF we - the Scottish electorate WANT to. If we want those things then the SNP will be voted into the first government of an Independent Scotland - if we dont want them then they wont.


If you want no bedroom tax no prescription charges a free NHS nationalised Royal Mail and all the other social projects the money has to come from somewhere, that's unless you wish to end up like Greece or one of the other Countries in dire straights due to woeful financial mismanagement.

Once again you speak as if Scotland has nothing and is nothing. I dont really understand how you can live here and not see that the country is full of resources from its people to its oil and all the space inbetween. Your comment here suggests that you think Scotland has no money, that the only money it has or could possibly raise would be from the rest of the UK. That is clearly wrong so Im sure that you dont mean that. The money would come from Scotland - as it does now - its just that now we give it all to Westmninster and some of it is given back to us. With Independence we would collect it and spend it ourselves on priorities which the electorate has had the chance to vote for.

The analogy with Greece is amusing. Scotland's economy does not compare with Greece's economy - even within a currency union. Perhaps you can explain how you think they are similar and bear a comparison? :DInterestingly two of the countries which were thought "bust" have overtaken the UK in the prosperity league produced by the legatum index. The Uk has dropped to 16th and been overtaken by Iceland, Austria and Germany. Interestingly those above the UK include Finland, Ireland and Germany - all who use the euro and are in a currency union.
Iceland and Ireland - both previously though to be bust are above the UK. As for Financial mismangement, well its not Scotland or Greece who hold the monopoly on that the UK has a pretty poor recent track record too. Scotland's Government has balanced its books well enough over the last few years - seems to suggest we have the ability to do so. UNless you agree with Golach that we have no one in Scotland who has the intellectual ability to do so.

Finally - you know Ragnar, you maybe have hit on the difference between our two views. I think the currency issue is secondary to the sort of society I want to see, you think it is the primary thing. We wont ever agree but I have enjoyed discussing it. Thanks for that. :D

Phill
30-Nov-13, 20:41
Isn't all this moot, as an Indy Scotland will have the Euro!

golach
30-Nov-13, 20:42
Isn't all this moot, as an Indy Scotland will have the Euro!

not if the Spanish PM has anything to do with it

RagnarRocks
30-Nov-13, 21:49
I think the main difference is I live in the real world where money pays for things and whilst wanting everything free and everyone equal is a very nice socialist principle and we all live in harmony it fundamentally misses the fact things have to be paid for ie no money no other nice things. You also seem to have missed the point ruk has agreed to stand by the election result it has not agreed to give independent Scotland everything it wants or anything for that matter all its agreed to is negotiation.If you really want to keep the currency the queen etc it comes down to whether ruk accepts you as you'll be a foreign country plain and simple. The white paper is a manifesto it contains little of real substance no real costing just an awful lot of,pipe dreams which have not been thought through properly.You need to get the principle that Scotland will be able to demand things and get them out of your head as no one else politically that is,seems to be agreeing with you. Mind the way things are unravelling for Mr Salmond on the political front at home and abroad it would appear as he is fast becoming the laughing stock of ruk and Europe .

squidge
01-Dec-13, 01:44
I think the main difference is I live in the real world where money pays for things and whilst wanting everything free and everyone equal is a very nice socialist principle and we all live in harmony it fundamentally misses the fact things have to be paid for ie no money no other nice things. You also seem to have missed the point ruk has agreed to stand by the election result it has not agreed to give independent Scotland everything it wants or anything for that matter all its agreed to is negotiation.If you really want to keep the currency the queen etc it comes down to whether ruk accepts you as you'll be a foreign country plain and simple. The white paper is a manifesto it contains little of real substance no real costing just an awful lot of,pipe dreams which have not been thought through properly.You need to get the principle that Scotland will be able to demand things and get them out of your head as no one else politically that is,seems to be agreeing with you. Mind the way things are unravelling for Mr Salmond on the political front at home and abroad it would appear as he is fast becoming the laughing stock of ruk and Europe .Scotland can keep the queen as head of state the union of the crowns is completely seperate from the issue of Scottish Independence. The Union of the crowns took place in 1603 when England asked James vi of Scotland to become James 1st England. The Act of Union of the parliaments took placein 1707. In fact there are two acts of parliamentary unio. One from the english parliament in 1706 and one from the Scottish parliament in 1707. These are the acts which will be changed if Scotland becomes Independant, not the 1603 Union of the crowns. The queen is the Queen of Scotland too and it matters not one jot what happens in the negotiations. That FACT wont change. Scotland can keep the queen as head of State if Scotland wants and in this particular instance there is nothing the rest of the uk can do about it.

As for paying for a fairer more equal society ... Of course it needs paying for and you know ragnar whatever happens if Scotland votes for Independence then there WILL be a currency. What it will be might be up for negotiation but there WILL be one. That currency will be what is used to pay for the things that theScottsh electorate choose as their priorities at the ballot box. So.... NOT paying for trident, NOT paying for HS2 or for westminster MPs and the house of lords for example. If we are not spending money on these things then guess what.... We can spend it on something else like better childcare, lifting the minimum wage, housing, improving the benefits system so that people dont have to rely on food banks, paying carers a better rate, maybe even a living wage, tackling child poverty and so on.

RagnarRocks
01-Dec-13, 08:40
Well whether you keep the queen as head of state is really neither here nor there in the greater scheme of things so I can let that one slide. Your issue with trident would be a major issue for Scotland and its desire to be in NATO they simply won't let you in and read the paperwork carefully on that issue there is no firm commitment to get rid of them just more talks and some fancy language which when boiled down means nothing, there are suggestions Mr Salmond will fudge the issue with a no ask no tell policy the same as Denmark and Norway but that is an even worse cop out as its delusional pretending the huge nuclear submarine sitting in Faslane doesn't have nuclear weapons on because you don't ask them and they don't tell you, its almost a childlike mentality .Now taking it that everyone agrees that Scotland will be starting with a functioning deficit on its balance books and unless new oil and gas fields are found they are running out, how long do you honestly suggest you can brag about oil/ gas revenues running your economy 100 yrs 200 no probably 50 at a worthwhile level. Scotland no longer has the heavy industry it used to and RUk will pull contracts for warships so there's another 8000 jobs down the swanney because of a dream. Then we have renationalisation of the post office, how much will that cost ? Higher minimum wages just get passed on to the consumer so higher prices, more inflation, higher interest rates , wow that's going to help the poor. Child are the SNP already has the power to bring in that policy, more shame on them for using it as a political bargaining too ! Housing I see plenty of housing I haven't seen anyone sleeping rough up here like I used to down south and to be fair I've driven around the area plenty some of the housing is of a lot better quality than in some towns in ruk I've seen. Improving benefits well how about we sort out the feckless and can't be bothered who drain the system put there for the genuinely needy, I have no problem paying for someone who has fallen on hard times neither does the majority of society but the ones who just leach the system need to be put back to work without all bad backs,depressions that get used. Please show me child poverty in this country I've yet to see it, but I have seen it in Kenya Somalia all over the Middle East, India , Pakistan to name but a few where real poverty is an issue.Now back to currency if you use a currency union with anyone they set tax and fiscal policy that's part of the deal, its not a spend as you like whilst using our currency deal.Most politicians in Ruk seem to agree a currency union is unlikely but if it does happen you'd be shackled to ruk interest rates.The euro would be enforced on you as a new state I'd you join Europe.And if you go it alone it would be a brand new currency from a brand new country , borrowing would be expensive that's how bankers make money they'd see the weakness and boy you'd pay.Now tell me squidqe where in all of this is anything so much better for Scotland .

Mrs Bradey
01-Dec-13, 11:02
wow . Squidge as I said I really admire your passion for an independent Scotland, but at what cost? rScotland will inherit a good portion of the existing UK national debt of £700billion add to this the huge cost of setting up a new government and a new currency. the new Scotland will be quite poor I think for some time. if the "new" Scotland want to keep; the monarchy , the pound, BoE interest rates , Yorkshire pud etc then why go to all the expense of a referendum (which is NOT actually a vote for independence, its just a tester) ! why not just leave well alone. unless.................. it IS a nationalist thing?

orkneycadian
01-Dec-13, 14:04
It seems that our yes campaign camp want to keep everything that is too much hassle to have to deal with yourself, or would be a miss if it went, but still claim to be independent.

A sort of pseudo independence.

captainhook504
01-Dec-13, 16:19
Hi It was the Scotish that invented the pound so it will be England that will have to find a new curancy

golach
01-Dec-13, 16:24
Hi It was the Scotish that invented the pound so it will be England that will have to find a new curancy

Think you got that wrong........The pound was a unit of account in Anglo Saxon England equal to 240 silver pennies and equivalent to one pound weight of silver. It evolved into the modern British currency, the pound sterling.

squidge
01-Dec-13, 17:08
wow . Squidge as I said I really admire your passion for an independent Scotland

But you see Mrs Bradey - Im not passionate about Independence. I am passionate about fairness equality and trying to create a better society. I support Independence because I believe that a YES vote is the best opportunity we have to change things and work to create a better and fairer place for my children and grandchildren.

Ragnar rightly holds up poverty in the third world as a horror but surely the fact that over 350 000 people in the UK had to use foodbanks between April and September is also shocking.

The referendum is a vote for Independence. The reason for Independence is so that Scotland can have the opportunity to do things differently. Welfare, taxation, immigration, employment legislation, defence, and so on - all these things can be changed in an Independent Scotland and the white paper discusses how right across the whole document. THAT is why I bother. THAT is why I am passionate. An Independent Scotland offers the best opportunity to do something different. To create something better than what we have. There is NO opportunity to do that within the UK.

So - not ethnicity, not because of some sense of racial purity, not because Scottish people think they are superior or better or cleverer or stronger and need some sort of protection but because ONLY independence gives Scottish voters the powers to make changes and create something different.

As for the HUGE COST. Well we spend millions on many things which the UK government think are a priority but which are not a priority for Scotland. Change those things only and we will have money to spend on our own priorities. We are wise to remember that we are not starting from nothing. Unless of course you share Ragnars view that we have nothing, are nothing and can do nothing...... isnt that just a step away from Scotland being too small, too weak and too stupid to be independent. If that is what you think then you are wrong.




A sort of pseudo independence.

Hmm well if sharing a currency is a bar on independence then you had better tell France and Germany that they are not independent. Also if sharing a queen is a bar on Independence then maybe Canada and Australia might be surprised to hear they are not independent.

We start with what we have - the pound, the queen, the various processes but Independence gives us the power to change any of these things if the people vote for change.

Mrs Bradey
01-Dec-13, 19:55
I don't see how Scotland being independent will create a better society, either fairer or more equal! I don't believe there is NO opportunity for Scotland to improve itself whilst remaining in the UK. Scotland has been improved immensely since the union in 1707 or whenever it was. to say It cannot further improve is quite ridiculous. So YOU are saying we are all doomed unless we hold hands with uncle Alex?

Bobinovich
01-Dec-13, 20:18
I don't see how Scotland being independent will create a better society, either fairer or more equal! I don't believe there is NO opportunity for Scotland to improve itself whilst remaining in the UK. Scotland has been improved immensely since the union in 1707 or whenever it was. to say It cannot further improve is quite ridiculous. So YOU are saying we are all doomed unless we hold hands with uncle Alex?

Even if Scotland does vote for independence that doesn't necessarily mean AS will be the leader of the party who wins the first post-independence election. If it could be guaranteed that he wouldn't be then I reckon many more folk would be willing to vote Yes lol!

Mrs Bradey
01-Dec-13, 21:08
Even if Scotland does vote for independence that doesn't necessarily mean AS will be the leader of the party who wins the first post-independence election. If it could be guaranteed that he wouldn't be then I reckon many more folk would be willing to vote Yes lol! I agree, I think his personality and politics are losing more votes than th.ey are gaining.

squidge
01-Dec-13, 23:02
I don't see how Scotland being independent will create a better society, either fairer or more equal! I don't believe there is NO opportunity for Scotland to improve itself whilst remaining in the UK. Scotland has been improved immensely since the union in 1707 or whenever it was. to say It cannot further improve is quite ridiculous. So YOU are saying we are all doomed unless we hold hands with uncle Alex?

Ok well lets see if I can explain :grin:

There is no impetus to work towards a better fairer society as part of the UK. The policies of successive Westminster Governments have failed to reduce inequality and failed to improve opportunities for the poorest in society. The policies of successive governments to reform welfare have led to some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in society being held responsible by governments, the media and much of the General public for the financial mess that the country is in when it was actually nothing to do with them. The taxation system favours the rich at the expense of the poor - by that I mean that if you are wealthy then you can take advantage of loopholes and slippery bits to stash your cash to avoid - legally - paying tax. Wealthy corporations avoid corporation tax, highly paid employees of PUBLIC companies play fast and loose with taxation rules to protect high incomes and huge bonuses. MPs claim housing expenses amounting to thousands of pounds and yet people in social housing who have the temerity to have a spare bedroom and for whom there is no choice of smaller housing are hammered with the Bedroom Tax. The NHS is privatised and contracts given to companies who number MPs and Members of the house of Lords on their Boards of Directors or amongst their investors. When you look to change these things - you look for alternatives there is nothing to choose between the three main parties - the Lib-dems seem to have no idea what they stand for anymore. You cant hardly put a pin between labour and the tories - they support each others policies, they do deals to the point there is no difference.

An Independent Scotland has the OPPORTUNITY and the impetus to do things differently. The White paper sets out the vision of the SNP, the Green Party has different vision but still their vision - their purpose is to create something fairer, less divided and more ecologically sound. There are new groups emerging - Labour for Independence for example and there are many commentators who beleive the political spectrum will change radically after Independence. This gives Scotland alternatives. We have been able to do several things which improve things for people as it is - the government is managing the budget to mitigate some of the effects of the Bedroom tax and the welfare reforms.

However we cannot do more because we do not have the power. The future within the union is that Scotland will suffer further cuts in the Barnett Formula which will limit the Scottish Governments ability to meet the priorities of the voters of Scotland. And will put the NHS, we have so far managed to protect from the privatisation happening elsewhere, at risk.

Only with Independence can Scotland redraw the welfare system to meet the needs of people in Scotland. Only in an Independent Scotland can we have any hope of a taxation system that does not allow people to sneak their money though loopholes the size of a house; only in an Independent Scotland do we have ANY opportunity to make changes to benefit PEOPLE rather than PROFITS. We will ahve to work damn hard to do that, we will have to campaign and write and demand and push and lobby and press for the change to work. But we will be pushing an open door - not one that is slammed shut and bolted - the commitment to abolishing the bedroom tax, to closing tax loopholes to create a welfare state that is about support and encouragement not punishment and demonisation and the commitment for a written constitution that enshrines specific rights and responsibilities all give me the hope and expectation of an opportunity to have a better society than we have now or that we will have if we remain as part of the union.

Check out the White Paper and also take a look at the Common Weal Project...There is loads to read and to think about.

Happy Reading :D

ducati
01-Dec-13, 23:07
Ok well lets see if I can explain :grin:

There is no impetus to work towards a better fairer society as part of the UK. The policies of successive Westminster Governments have failed to reduce inequality and failed to improve opportunities for the poorest in society. The policies of successive governments to reform welfare have led to some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in society being held responsible by governments, the media and much of the General public for the financial mess that the country is in when it was actually nothing to do with them. The taxation system favours the rich at the expense of the poor - by that I mean that if you are wealthy then you can take advantage of loopholes and slippery bits to stash your cash to avoid - legally - paying tax. Wealthy corporations avoid corporation tax, highly paid employees of PUBLIC companies play fast and loose with taxation rules to protect high incomes and huge bonuses. MPs claim housing expenses amounting to thousands of pounds and yet people in social housing who have the temerity to have a spare bedroom and for whom there is no choice of smaller housing are hammered with the Bedroom Tax. The NHS is privatised and contracts given to companies who number MPs and Members of the house of Lords on their Boards of Directors or amongst their investors. When you look to change these things - you look for alternatives there is nothing to choose between the three main parties - the Lib-dems seem to have no idea what they stand for anymore. You cant hardly put a pin between labour and the tories - they support each others policies, they do deals to the point there is no difference.

An Independent Scotland has the OPPORTUNITY and the impetus to do things differently. The White paper sets out the vision of the SNP, the Green Party has different vision but still their vision - their purpose is to create something fairer, less divided and more ecologically sound. There are new groups emerging - Labour for Independence for example and there are many commentators who beleive the political spectrum will change radically after Independence. This gives Scotland alternatives. We have been able to do several things which improve things for people as it is - the government is managing the budget to mitigate some of the effects of the Bedroom tax and the welfare reforms.

However we cannot do more because we do not have the power. The future within the union is that Scotland will suffer further cuts in the Barnett Formula which will limit the Scottish Governments ability to meet the priorities of the voters of Scotland. And will put the NHS, we have so far managed to protect from the privatisation happening elsewhere, at risk.

Only with Independence can Scotland redraw the welfare system to meet the needs of people in Scotland. Only in an Independent Scotland can we have any hope of a taxation system that does not allow people to sneak their money though loopholes the size of a house; only in an Independent Scotland do we have ANY opportunity to make changes to benefit PEOPLE rather than PROFITS. We will ahve to work damn hard to do that, we will have to campaign and write and demand and push and lobby and press for the change to work. But we will be pushing an open door - not one that is slammed shut and bolted - the commitment to abolishing the bedroom tax, to closing tax loopholes to create a welfare state that is about support and encouragement not punishment and demonisation and the commitment for a written constitution that enshrines specific rights and responsibilities all give me the hope and expectation of an opportunity to have a better society than we have now or that we will have if we remain as part of the union.

Check out the White Paper and also take a look at the Common Weal Project...There is loads to read and to think about.

Happy Reading :D

I keep getting this feeling, I just don't live in the same UK as you? I can only imagine we are philosophically so far apart that we see different things.

Rheghead
01-Dec-13, 23:10
Some people would say that a fairer society or one where there is a redistribution of wealth is a society that supports mediocrity or one that lacks entrepreneurship etc. Brain drain anyone?

squidge
01-Dec-13, 23:32
I keep getting this feeling, I just don't live in the same UK as you? I can only imagine we are philosophically so far apart that we see different things.

Well you dont ducati lol. Im not surprised that we are philosphically different - we have had different lives, different careers, lived in different places and had different experiences.

I dont expect you to agree with me, or to change your mind, all I try to do is to explain my opinions and the way I see things to provoke debate, discussion and to encourage people to look for themselves and decide which way to vote based on what is important to them.

golach
01-Dec-13, 23:52
Check out the White Paper and also take a look at the Common Weal Project...There is loads to read and to think about.

Happy Reading :D

Squidge, dare I ask did you have a hand in writting the "White Paper", I am curious, your debates seem similar to what was printed. All "ifs" & "may be's". my grandchildren have better wish lists to Santa Clause and we all know he is not real :lol:

RagnarRocks
02-Dec-13, 00:05
I've always noted how socialist want to distribute everyone else's wealth but their own, they think equality is sharing everyone else's things but not their own and they voice lofty ideals which successively fail globally but never seem to learn from it

squidge
02-Dec-13, 00:33
Squidge, dare I ask did you have a hand in writting the "White Paper", Thats because I am referencing the white paper in my responses Golach so that people who are interested can go and look for themselves. If my opinions seem to be similar to the position taken in the white paper then maybe its not so surprising I support independence is it?


I've always noted how socialist want to distribute everyone else's wealth but their own, they think equality is sharing everyone else's things but not their own and they voice lofty ideals which successively fail globally but never seem to learn from it

Lol Ragnar I know it suits you to think I want to prevent people from making money or from making loads of money. I dont. I am happy for people to be rich. I would quite like to be rich myself. Disgustingly so would be nice lol. I have no problem with people making and keeping money as long as they do not do that at the expense of those who have no choice but to pay their dues. As long as the RULES apply equally and Fairly to the rich as they do to those who are not rich. As long as the government is not putting money in the pockets of those who have plenty whilst taking money from those who have little. You will never get economic equality but you can get equality of opportunity and you can have policies which ensure that no one, no one feels they have no choice but to kill themselves because the benefit policies are cruel, flawed and take no account of the needs of PEOPLE.

Mrs Bradey
02-Dec-13, 10:28
Squidge are you in favour of a tax system that taxes rich and poor equally? the government will probably be too busy putting the money in there own pocket as usual. independence or not the politicians will still squabble like children and get little done while wasting lots of public funds. I look forward to paying off my share of the national debt £10,000,000.00 (eachperson in UK)

squidge
02-Dec-13, 10:52
I believe a tax system should be fair. It should not be puntive. It should help to lift people out of poverty and contribute to making sure that work pays and it is not more financially beneficial for someone to be on benefits. I think that everybody should pay a little more once they become high earners earnings over a cerain amount. Not 97% or anything ridiculus but cerainly more.

I also believe that big corporations must not get away with paying noting through creative acounting; that people working for public companies, like the BBC, or civil service departments should not be able to agree dodgy deals on their employment specifically to avoid tax. Should we all be taxed equally? No.... That does not make sense. Someone earning 150 000 cant expect to pay the same amount of tax as someone earning 15 000. They can however be taxed fairly. Which means the person earning 150 000 should not have access to ways of avoiding and minimising their tax which those who are paid 15 000 do not have. Fairly means not allowing big corporations to walk away from their tax rfsponsibilities.

Now this is all well and good Mrs but I have talked about MY vision, we have discussed the Scottish Govenments plans and i have referenced the Green Party, Labour for Independence and the Common Weal. Do you have a vision for Scotlands future within the union? Id be really interested to hear it and perhaps Ragnar and others might share theirs too, maybe we can talk about The UKs plans for Scotland if we remain as part of the union.

Phill
02-Dec-13, 11:46
I've always noted how champagne socialist want to distribute everyone else's wealth but their own, they think equality is sharing everyone else's things but not their own and they voice lefty ideals which successively fail globally but never seem to learn from it
Fixed it.

squidge
02-Dec-13, 12:36
Aye aye this bollinger is lurrrrvely dahling ...... As if!!!!!

RagnarRocks
02-Dec-13, 20:56
I will give a comprehensive reply when I depart Glasgow and return to sunny Caithness bloody hotel as a 30 minute timer on the Internet unless I want to cough up £10

little red one
03-Dec-13, 06:12
independence or not the politicians will still squabble like children and get little done while wasting lots of public funds.

Exactly!

Iv always thought that being an MP should be like jury service, you get called up, serve a period and then get on with whatever it was you did before. You can argue about being voted in, continuity, informed opinion and having the right people. I would argue that its not really worked previously and having parties that impress their own ideological beliefs on the rest of society (and their own parties! how on earth can you have a party whip??!!) is not democracy.

I find it truely amazing that millions of people can vote on the future of an individual in Mr Cowells musical meat grinder but not vote to rid the country of a bunch of money grabbing, power mad numpties that want to spend their lives suckling on the teet of public resource whilst breaking pledge after pledge and wasting soo much.

Ill be voting NO to independence btw and i wont be voting SNP (in its current format) ever again either.

Back on topic, why change currency? how much would it cost to implement such a thing? Scotland already has its own currency! You disagree? Try going down to England and spending a fistfull of Scottish sterling...

Phill
03-Dec-13, 07:16
If Salmond gets his way, it'll run with the pound (without rUK agreement) until the Euro kicks in. Simples.

Mrs Bradey
03-Dec-13, 09:55
I will give a comprehensive reply when I depart Glasgow and return to sunny Caithness bloody hotel as a 30 minute timer on the Internet unless I want to cough up £10 Don't rush back if its sunshine your after!

Oddquine
03-Dec-13, 10:03
If Salmond gets his way, it'll run with the pound (without rUK agreement) until the Euro kicks in. Simples.

And how different is that going to be economics wise to what happens now? When was the last time Westminster based its monetary policy on the needs of any part of the UK outside London? At least with Independence, we'd have the fiscal means to ameliorate the effects of that fixation on London to the exclusion of the rest of the UK.......and into the bargain, we wouldn't have to be helping subsidise the place.

Phill
03-Dec-13, 10:33
And how different is that going to be economics wise to what happens now? When was the last time Westminster based its monetary policy on the needs of any part of the UK outside London? At least with Independence, we'd have the fiscal means to ameliorate the effects of that fixation on London to the exclusion of the rest of the UK.......and into the bargain, we wouldn't have to be helping subsidise the place.The difference is still no financial independence. I find it interesting this issue where some believe Scotland is subsidising the rest of the UK and some desire freedom from that, only to go and hand financial control to Brussels and subsidise the EU gravy train.:confused

orkneycadian
03-Dec-13, 19:30
I support Independence because I believe that a YES vote is the best opportunity we have to change things and work to create a better and fairer place for my children and grandchildren.

Thats fair enough, but I am not really seeing anything in the prospectus that is a significant change. Certainly not worth the massive upheaval and risk involved. There are many many aspirations, and a few token changes proposed, but there is a vast amount of status quo (not the band....) in there. Take the Justice Section in paragraph 7 for example - "Our priorities for action". Virtually every one includes the words "continue" or "maintain". In other words, no change. So it looks like one thing your children and grandchildren cannot look forward to in an independent Scotland (in the unlikely event) is a safer place.

ducati
03-Dec-13, 20:00
Thats fair enough, but I am not really seeing anything in the prospectus that is a significant change. Certainly not worth the massive upheaval and risk involved. There are many many aspirations, and a few token changes proposed, but there is a vast amount of status quo (not the band....) in there. Take the Justice Section in paragraph 7 for example - "Our priorities for action". Virtually every one includes the words "continue" or "maintain". In other words, no change. So it looks like one thing your children and grandchildren cannot look forward to in an independent Scotland (in the unlikely event) is a safer place.

Certainly not worth the risk of having the SNP in charge. I notice most of Salmond's anti English rantings from the good old settler watch days have disapeared off the interweby. I'm not a conspiracy nut but....erasing history is a bit of a trick.

Alrock
03-Dec-13, 20:21
I'm not a conspiracy nut but....erasing history is a bit of a trick.

Must have got the idea from the Tories

ducati
03-Dec-13, 20:23
Must have got the idea from the Tories

Why? Are they anti English? :confused

Alrock
03-Dec-13, 21:16
Why? Are they anti English? :confused

They erased their history from their website.

tonkatojo
03-Dec-13, 21:17
Why? Are they anti English? :confused

Aye good question, they appear anti everyone/most North of Watford

Mrs Bradey
03-Dec-13, 22:37
Certainly not worth the risk of having the SNP in charge. I notice most of Salmond's anti English rantings from the good old settler watch days have disapeared off the interweby. I'm not a conspiracy nut but....erasing history is a bit of a trick. try Google for this " Alex Salmond and the '79 group' " I found this by typing SNP IRA connections. interesting to say the least!

squidge
04-Dec-13, 08:41
. Do you have a vision for Scotlands future within the union? Id be really interested to hear it and perhaps Ragnar and others might share theirs too, maybe we can talk about The UKs plans for Scotland if we remain as part of the union.Anyone????

orkneycadian
04-Dec-13, 09:10
try Google for this " Alex Salmond and the '79 group' " I found this by typing SNP IRA connections. interesting to say the least!

:eek::eek:

So our illustriuous First Minister was previously expelled from the SNP for left wing extremism? And this is the guy that wants to lead us in independence?

I have heard it all now. I was not aware of 'Ecks history, nor his sidekick Comrade McAskill. With such a history of left wing extremism, I can now see what was behind the release of the Lockerbie bomber.

I think I can save myself reading any more of Scotlands Future. Its SNP's History that is more relevant.

golach
04-Dec-13, 09:11
Anyone????

I am happy with the status quo, and to carry on with Devo Plus, and getting rid of eck in 2016.

The "white paper" to me is just a wish list, shows me nothing hard and fast.

orkneycadian
04-Dec-13, 09:12
Anyone????

Well, it appears that by staying in the union, we can avoid having Communism imposed upon us by Comrade Salmond, Comrade McAskill and other former members of the 79 Group. I guess that they are unable to impose their extremism on us when we are still part of the UK, but as soon as we are an independent country.....

ducati
04-Dec-13, 09:41
They erased their history from their website.

Did they? Which bit? Can't say I've looked at their website TBH.

RagnarRocks
04-Dec-13, 10:18
You have to ask yourself whether someone who wasn't an extremist would really want independence it's not as though ruk forces Scotland to submit to anything. What I do see is a lot of outdated ideas aka Grangemouth and Falkirk still alive and kicking the old unions of the 70s not the modern unions of the 21st century which work with companies. People want progress they want a better brighter future and some seem to honestly believe that sticking a loaded gun the heads of employers will work. I've lived through conservative and labour govts what have I seen each time labour gets in our economy takes a massive nose dive each time the conservatives get in it recovers this can't be coincidence, and it does affect each and every one of us. Social care is no bad thing no one suggests getting rid of the NHS or social care what they do say is it isn't a breadbasket that can be raided at will by employing more and more managers look at the hospitals with all the problems they can't be laid at the conservatives door but firmly at labour and its policies. I don't believe for one second conservatives are perfect but at least jobs and our economy are secure in their hands. I have no faith in Milliband he seems to be far to oppurtunist and seems to be capable of doing whatever it takes to gain power. Clegg is an oppurtunist at best and Cameron yes an Eton educated millionaire. But if you worked for a company which would you rather have a Marxist boss that doesn't care if the company runs into massive debt. A liberal boss who does whatever it takes to keep everyone happy or the millionaire who likes his money.It seems we all want a buoyant economy lots of free social care and health non of us like the free loaders which are in the system but it seems that as soon as anyone attempts to reform these creaking old systems there is the usual name calling and branding something as inhuman. Take the bedroom tax or should we say spare room subsidy, how many people not in social housing buy houses with spare rooms quite a few I'd suggest but equally a lot down scale as there families get older and move on, but in the social housing market a family can have a 4 bed house with only one person living in it, that's neither right nor fair, yes there are issues with not enough housing stock available and some special cases but overall its a sensible reform. Where I used to live I always remember driving through the council estates you could see all the new cars sitting outside and the big tvs n the front rooms but when you went to the private houses older cars not so many tvs. So shouldn't we be asking ourselves whether there should be a limit to your social housing I.e once you can afford to buy you should be made to rather than taking housing from the genuinely needy. I have no problems helping people who can't help themselves but freeloaders who take housing from the genuinely needy whilst earning 40k a year is not acceptable. Hoarding prescriptions which cost money and takes money from the ill not acceptable I could go on and on non of these things are fare or make society better. If you want a free and fair society you have to accept there are many out there abusing the system and claiming for things they don't need

Alrock
04-Dec-13, 10:46
Did they? Which bit? Can't say I've looked at their website TBH.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924185


The Conservative Party has deleted speeches and press releases published on its website between 2000 and the 2010 general election.
The archive has also been hidden from search engines.
The move was spotted by Computer Weekly (http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html), a trade publication, which also said some records had been removed from the Internet Archive (https://archive.org/index.php), which aims to make a permanent record of web content......

Oddquine
04-Dec-13, 13:45
:eek::eek:

So our illustriuous First Minister was previously expelled from the SNP for left wing extremism? And this is the guy that wants to lead us in independence?

I have heard it all now. I was not aware of 'Ecks history, nor his sidekick Comrade McAskill. With such a history of left wing extremism, I can now see what was behind the release of the Lockerbie bomber.

I think I can save myself reading any more of Scotlands Future. Its SNP's History that is more relevant.

Good grief......Golach has already gone this route....and he has been responded to....more than once..in a thread in which you yourself posted. My responses to his posts 74 and 76 is here....http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?211755-Your-reasons-for-voting-No-in-the-Independence-referendum&p=1046580#post1046580

However character assassination is a useful tool for those with nothing more constructive or useful to say.

orkneycadian
04-Dec-13, 15:41
Sorry, missed that one. Tend not to follow links unless there is a good clue as to what is in them.

Sorry, but the character of the person has a lot to do with it. Many folk slated Margaret Thatcher as the person, right up till her death, and then had an extra field day, just for good measure!

ducati
05-Dec-13, 09:40
In any event, very unlikely he will have changed his fundamental beliefs even if he pretends he has. This is a difficulty for a lot of independentists. There seems to be an understanding that people bury their more extreme views. A few drinks and a heated debate soon finds them out though. [lol]

RagnarRocks
31-Jan-14, 20:41
Well it seems Mark Carney Guvenor of the Bank of England put matters straight about the currency situation. If you want it you have to cede powers which means loosing control of taxation borrowing and lending. You can't have it much straighter than that. So where is Mr Salmomds plan B oh he doesn't have one despite all his reassurances of it being just a matter of negotiation.

amm26
31-Jan-14, 21:14
Alex salmond doesn't give a flying monkeys about Scotland. An independent Scotland, with high taxes, no control over our currency or economy (£ or €) and the lack of jobs and investment that will most definently follow. He just wants his name in the history books. While everyone back here is struggling, he will be raking it in, giving after dinner speeches in the US telling everyone how he freed Scotland from the English oppressors. I can't wait for the vote to be over and done with.

ducati
01-Feb-14, 07:06
Well it seems Mark Carney Guvenor of the Bank of England put matters straight about the currency situation. If you want it you have to cede powers which means loosing control of taxation borrowing and lending. You can't have it much straighter than that. So where is Mr Salmomds plan B oh he doesn't have one despite all his reassurances of it being just a matter of negotiation.

It is worse than that, for a currency union to work, the rest of the UK would also have to cede some powers and sovereignty. The SNP would say that is in their interests. Do What?!

ducati
01-Feb-14, 07:17
Another thing that bothers me. Half of all Scottish exports are said to go to the rest of the UK. That is wrong. These goods and services are not currently exports, it is trade within the UK. (Like Manchester buying stuff from Sheffield).

If indy happens then it will be exports (great for the balance of trade I hear you cry). Except it will then be subject to the same rules and regulations and costs associated with any other inport into the UK. Many of these goods and services will no longer be require as they can be sourced elsewhere in the UK. It is important for the UK to maintain it's balance of trade too.