View Full Version : Cameron's bribe/threat for Wee Eck.
Cameron closes the Portsmouth shipyard in favour of keeping Glasgow open. This presents a problem for the SNP, go independent and Westminster will take back their military shipbuilding as Britain has always built the majority of its own military vessels.Thoughts anyone?
cptdodger
11-Nov-13, 16:28
Basically, vote for independence and put the rest of the Govan shipyard workers on the dole - very clever move on his part.
The gaffer is not as stupid as you may think
Seem quiet transparent and obvious, the work of an amateurish pettifogger. Ignoring the fact that about the same amount of jobs were lost at both sites but the media generally ignores that. There's also the usual FUD and scaremongering that's blatantly wrong but again the media in general are ignoring that also and then of course you have people like Ian Davidson who seems to be actively campaigning against his own constituents.
2little2late
11-Nov-13, 16:55
One of the best things Cameron has done since his priministerial role.
Scots often don't always respond rationally to threats. Just a thought...
Escpecially from the Tories.
Whom we didn't vote for.
macadamia
11-Nov-13, 17:34
John Reid - met him a couple of times. Great Scotsman. He made a comment today. When he says it, it does sound like a threat. "Votes 'Yes', Boats 'No'." End of.
A foreign country (especially one which is currently being told it is a waste of space (those "Torries of Wastemonster") has no real need to feel kindly disposed towards a country which is being rather rude to it.
This whole 'foreign country' thing is just tripe.
The Uk is buying Eurofighter (a collaborative project) and we buy quite a bit of hardware from the US.
Once again, project FEAR is in full swing.
macadamia
11-Nov-13, 18:12
Yes the UK CHOOSES who it buys from. That's because the UK is an Independent country. One of the great things about being independent is that you can choose how much you want to share with other countries. A nice country like the UK tries not to give massive contracts to countries it doesn't really like.It has little to do with a project, or fear, or scaremongering. Its called realpolitik, and sometimes it hurts.
Did Cameron shut Portsmouth?
I thought it was BAE systems?
This whole 'foreign country' thing is just tripe.
The Uk is buying Eurofighter (a collaborative project) and we buy quite a bit of hardware from the US.
Once again, project FEAR is in full swing.
Britain has never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain.
Could they? Probably. Would they? I doubt it.
cptdodger
11-Nov-13, 20:20
Did Cameron shut Portsmouth?
I thought it was BAE systems?
It was, but my understanding of it is BAE Systems, presumably rely on Government contracts to function. Now, as far as I am aware Govan has won the contracts to build whatever kind of ship or ships they are -but not until 2015. From what I heard on the news when Portsmouth's closure was announced, they were not backwards in coming forwards saying if Scotland gains independence, the contracts will then revert to Portsmouth. I can't remember word for word, but when I heard that, my first thought was "blackmail" and I am against independence, always have been.
cptdodger
11-Nov-13, 20:31
And of course, this could all be idle threats, scaremongering and so on, but what if it's not. What happens if Westminster actually does pull the contracts from Govan? Are all the "yes" voters going to take a trip down to Govan to tell all these Shipyard workers (who are out of work now) how independence is so much better for them ?
It was, but my understanding of it is BAE Systems, presumably rely on Government contracts to function. Now, as far as I am aware Govan has won the contracts to build whatever kind of ship or ships they are -but not until 2015. From what I heard on the news when Portsmouth's closure was announced, they were not backwards in coming forwards saying if Scotland gains independence, the contracts will then revert to Portsmouth. I can't remember word for word, but when I heard that, my first thought was "blackmail" and I am against independence, always have been.
Blackmail? I'd probably agree, but I'd also say this is the unionists being opportunistic instead of plotting as is proposed in earlier posts.
The Grangemouth situation showed how any independent company can close facilities they own should they choose.
BAE systems are no different. They closed Portsmouth instead of Glasgow for commercial, not political reasons. The fact the Clyde yards are twice as big seems to be lost on everyone as a probable reason.
cptdodger
11-Nov-13, 20:46
Blackmail? I'd probably agree, but I'd also say this is the unionists being opportunistic instead of plotting as is proposed in earlier posts.
The Grangemouth situation showed how any independent company can close facilities they own should they choose.
BAE systems are no different. They closed Portsmouth instead of Glasgow for commercial, not political reasons. The fact the Clyde yards are twice as big seems to be lost on everyone as a probable reason.
You could very well be right, I think people are possibly putting a political spin on it because of the timing with the referendum being next year. Regarding Grangemouth, I think the days are well and truly gone where the Unions rule the roost, I seem to remember the person that runs Quantas Airlines did exactly the same thing recently
Somehow, I suspect that Eck would have played the same way if he was in Dave's shoes.
cptdodger
11-Nov-13, 20:53
Thinking about it blackmail might have been a bit of a strong word to use, but that's how I interpreted what was being said. I am not a political person, but if that's my take on it, how many other people thought the same as me ?
A nice country like the UK tries not to give massive contracts to countries it doesn't really like.
Tell that to the Bombardier workers!!
RagnarRocks
11-Nov-13, 22:00
My main question is why should an independent Scotland worry whether the Uk decides to give contracts to it. Surely the point of independence is to be independent. If the Scottish yards are truly competitive then won't they just ignore whatever the Uk does and get orders from the rest of the world. It isn't blackmail if the UK pulls the plug on ships being built in Scotland its national security theirs,and pure self interest.Would you rather spend your money in your own house or your neighbours ?
My main question is why should an independent Scotland worry whether the Uk decides to give contracts to it. Surely the point of independence is to be independent. If the Scottish yards are truly competitive then won't they just ignore whatever the Uk does and get orders from the rest of the world. It isn't blackmail if the UK pulls the plug on ships being built in Scotland its national security theirs,and pure self interest.Would you rather spend your money in your own house or your neighbours ?
The Scottish shipyards cannot compete in the current shipbuilding climate, South Korea, Poland and even Italy build cheaper. That why they have become so dependent upon building the Royal Navy's fighting ships. If, after independence, the contracts for the Type 26 Frigates are withdrawn what are Scottish shipbuildres going to build?
The Scottish shipyards cannot compete in the current shipbuilding climate, South Korea, Poland and even Italy build cheaper. That why they have become so dependent upon building the Royal Navy's fighting ships. If, after independence, the contracts for the Type 26 Frigates are withdrawn what are Scottish shipbuildres going to build?
And presumably, the owners BAE Systems, would have no further use for them and they would be up for sale or closed down. Pre BAE, the yards were owned and run by pretty much every other European firm that owns yards. Perhaps Eck will nationalise them. Then build CalMac ferries. (I wonder where they are made now?)
Or maybe BAE will get contracts to build the Scottish Navy?
Britain has never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain.
Could they? Probably. Would they? I doubt it.
Doesn't need to be warships. There was the recent £520 million order for fleet support vessels with Mitsubishi in Korea, etc.
Doesn't need to be warships. There was the recent £520 million order for fleet support vessels with Mitsubishi in Korea, etc.
No, but the short term future of the Clyde yards is based almost entirely on the type 26 warship. Without a short term future, skills are lost and that affects the long term future.
Forgetting whatever side of the debate you are on, nobody in their right mind would claim that independence would not have a negative effect on the clyde shipyards, or on other defence based industry in Scotland.
My main question is why should an independent Scotland worry whether the Uk decides to give contracts to it. Surely the point of independence is to be independent. If the Scottish yards are truly competitive then won't they just ignore whatever the Uk does and get orders from the rest of the world. It isn't blackmail if the UK pulls the plug on ships being built in Scotland its national security theirs,and pure self interest.Would you rather spend your money in your own house or your neighbours ?
Once we are independent, it ought not to matter to us what Cameron thinks, or does.
Who is he to say that our men in govan will be on the dole,
rob murray
12-Nov-13, 12:55
Once we are independent, it ought not to matter to us what Cameron thinks, or does.
Who is he to say that our men in govan will be on the dole,
Well they will be, unless an Independent Scotland subsidises and supports diversification of the clyde because one certainty exists, if Scotland is independent the UK will classify it, quite rightly, as a foreign power, open to international competition, with Portsmouth as a back up. Hard life hard truths.
Britain has never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain.
Could they? Probably. Would they? I doubt it.
Granted, but it's a bit like saying "I'm happy to buy a Swiss watch, a German car, an Italian washing machine, a Polish fridge, but by God I'll never buy anything but a British vacuum cleaner. Got to be from Blighty to keep things properly clean eh? What! What!
Hardly consistent?
Granted, but it's a bit like saying "I'm happy to buy a Swiss watch, a German car, an Italian washing machine, a Polish fridge, but by God I'll never buy anything but a British vacuum cleaner. Got to be from Blighty to keep things properly clean eh? What! What!
Hardly consistent? no its nothing like that
no its nothing like that
You work that out how?
When Westminster buys all kinds of military hardware from 'foreign' Johnnies but won't buy a warship from anyone else...
You can buy military hardware with foreign condoms?
Tangerine-Dream
12-Nov-13, 23:11
The majority of "normal" English people would like to get shot of Scotland as it's a burden on them having to subsidise free prescriptions for the Scots (amongst other things)..... the only people in England who want to keep the "union" are the Royals and the truly "posh".... it's their playground when it comes to hunting and fishing..... the majority of REAL people in England consider Scotland a waste of their hard earned "tax"..... I'd be quite annoyed too if I had to pay £7.65 (per item) prescription charges only to find that the subsidised Scots get theirs for FREE.
I think the "vote" is in the wrong country.... it should be a YES / NO vote for the English to decide...... "keep subsiding the Scots or let them go it alone?" I think the result would be a massive "NO!" (let them go it alone)..... it's all very well for Mr. Salmon and miss cod roe (she sure ain't caviar) to spout all this rubbish "whilst" wasting English taxpayers money holus bolus but as soon as they get into power (IF they get into power) the true picture will soon become evident and it won't be the rich Scots who suffer the brunt of the SNP's greed to gain "power".... it will be the other 95% of the (United Scotland) population who suffer.
If anybody TRULY believes Scotland can prosper on it's own then all I can say is..... you've got one BIG shock ahead of you.
Tangerine-Dream
12-Nov-13, 23:29
By the way,
I'm a Scot who lived in London for 32 years..... I will, personally, be voting a BIG yes to independence as I am planning on moving back down south next year and don't want to have to pay £7.65 prescription fees.... All England needs now is the Welsh off their "subsidy" list too (they ALSO get free prescriptions) and England will be free of these small countries complaining about "westminster"...... I just wonder how long it will be before "westminster" becomes a fond memory of "golden, bygone days" to the jocks ;)
I'm all for an independent England, bring it on!!
YES YES YES to an independent England!
THE Department for International Development (Dfid) would be unlikely to keep its headquarters in East Kilbride should Scots vote for independence, a powerful Commons committee was warned today.
Development Secretary Justine Greening told MPs on the international development select committee that the future of her department’s headquarters in Scotland which employed around 600 people and is worth £30 million to the East Kilbride economy, would need to be reviewed and would probably be moved if Scotland becomes a foreign country.
And will Centre 1 HMRC and the thousands of jobs be next?
Keyser_soze
12-Nov-13, 23:57
I cant believe you called him wee Eck ?
Hes one fat overweight lump of lard, eyes like a haddie , fat Eck is his real name mate but back to the point , a master ploy by Cameron there , I dont know why hes worried though its just a crazy bunch of nationalists ,( can we use the bigot word ? ), who want independence , Ive not met anyone else who wants it or thinks we can sustain it. maybe 40 years ago yes following Norways ideal but not now, especially following the ROI s ideal (we bailed them oot ) .
A blinder by D.C
Tangerine-Dream
13-Nov-13, 00:14
If, after independence, the contracts for the Type 26 Frigates are withdrawn what are Scottish shipbuilders going to build?
They'll adapt very fast and master the art of tunnelling across (under) the border in search of gainful employment but, being classed as illegal immigrants, they may find themselves being ejected back over the border to a grim life of salmon and cod roe being "doled" out to them....... who knows, they could also decide to travel further up north and do a bit of sheep rustling.... my guess is, they will probably stay at home and jack up some fresh "H" from Afghanistan, that's the easy way out and I am sure (without a police force, customs or army) Scotland will become a major port for drug trafficking and the locals will get a good deal on the price.
I wouldn't worry too much about the type 26 frigates anyway..... a few type 26 frigates will not keep an economy running, neither will a few whisky distilleries or a few hundred thousand sheep (nor an oil refinery in Grangemouth) these are small fish...... the sharks you want to watch out for, that are feeding you all this nonsense, are very fishy people...... Salmond (the Salmon) and Sturgeon (the cod roe masquerading as caviar))..... you'll be lucky if you get to eat fish "skin" if that pair of bottom feeders brainwash you into thinking Scotland would be better off as an independent country.
I'm still going to vote YES though just to show the Daily record readers (who sport a bottle of iron brew) that they've never had it so good..... I can't wait to see their faces a, few years down the line, when they are eating raw fish skin and drinking from the sewers ;)
The Salmon and Cod Roe in their penthouse suite (on the "once" clyde shipyard) looking down at all the poverty and claiming "we've made it!".
The sooner England goes independent the better..... the "Scottish Question" has become SO boring, I wish we could vote now! Another year of this crud is enough to drive anybody insane..... it's like watching a repeat episode of PAINT drying everytime it's discussed.
It would be a lot more interesting discussing the REAL problem which is the Chinese invasion and the reason for most of the problems but, hey ho....... "westminster" is the problem, the "English" are the problem, the people in the next "village" are the problem"....... keep believing that and we'll get nowhere as a nation.
Twill Centre 1 HMRC and the thousands of jobs be next?
Oh goody, Scottish people won't be paying tax then i guess....So won't the staff of EK Tax office be useful for a Scottish tax office or are you just content with people being dumped on the dole just for the hell of independence.
I will, personally, be voting a BIG yes to independence as I am planning on moving back down south next year
Ahh, voting yes then fleeing the backlash. Typical eh!
They'll adapt very fast and master the art of tunnelling across (under) the border in search of gainful employment but, being classed as illegal immigrants, they may find themselves being ejected back over the border to a grim life of salmon and cod roe being "doled" out to them....... who knows, they could also decide to travel further up north and do a bit of sheep rustling.... my guess is, they will probably stay at home and jack up some fresh "H" from Afghanistan, that's the easy way out and I am sure (without a police force, customs or army) Scotland will become a major port for drug trafficking and the locals will get a good deal on the price.
I wouldn't worry too much about the type 26 frigates anyway..... a few type 26 frigates will not keep an economy running, neither will a few whisky distilleries or a few hundred thousand sheep (nor an oil refinery in Grangemouth) these are small fish...... the sharks you want to watch out for, that are feeding you all this nonsense, are very fishy people...... Salmond (the Salmon) and Sturgeon (the cod roe masquerading as caviar))..... you'll be lucky if you get to eat fish "skin" if that pair of bottom feeders brainwash you into thinking Scotland would be better off as an independent country.
I'm still going to vote YES though just to show the Daily record readers (who sport a bottle of iron brew) that they've never had it so good..... I can't wait to see their faces a, few years down the line, when they are eating raw fish skin and drinking from the sewers ;)
The Salmon and Cod Roe in their penthouse suite (on the "once" clyde shipyard) looking down at all the poverty and claiming "we've made it!".
The sooner England goes independent the better..... the "Scottish Question" has become SO boring, I wish we could vote now! Another year of this crud is enough to drive anybody insane..... it's like watching a repeat episode of PAINT drying everytime it's discussed.
It would be a lot more interesting discussing the REAL problem which is the Chinese invasion and the reason for most of the problems but, hey ho....... "westminster" is the problem, the "English" are the problem, the people in the next "village" are the problem"....... keep believing that and we'll get nowhere as a nation.
Arrogance and narrow-mindeness springs to mind. If you don't like it then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LIVING IN SCOTLAND NOW??
Oh goody, Scottish people won't be paying tax then i guess....So won't the staff of EK Tax office be useful for a Scottish tax office or are you just content with people being dumped on the dole just for the hell of independence.
Centre 1 does not just cover Scottish income taxes, its a major Vat centre for the UK, good thing is if we go indepenant and dont get in the EU, we will not have to pay Vat
wavy davy
13-Nov-13, 00:45
You work that out how?
When Westminster buys all kinds of military hardware from 'foreign' Johnnies but won't buy a warship from anyone else...
Partly historical I guess - Britannia rules the waves - embarrassing if they lose the ability to build a warship. More importantly, I would think that there is a heap of valuable and sensitive IP within the design specs which they would not want to gift to a foreign (shipbuilding) power. Maybe some better informed OP can comment?
Tangerine-Dream
13-Nov-13, 00:46
A couple of more points before I retire to my "english made" memory foam mattress.
The weather up here causes a big chip on the shoulder to a lot of people...... you will still envy the south even if you are "ruled" by fishy people.... it will be the "same" place apart from the fact that you will be cut off from the national grid and be even colder and miserable ;)
The English beat the crap out of the Scots hundreds of years ago..... get over it, you were outnumbered 20/1 (what do you expect)
William Wallace was a Welsh man (FACT!)
Iron Bru is disgusting
Mel Gibson is an "Australian" actor...... They couldn't find a WELSH actor to play the part of William Wallace..... (Max Boyce would have been my choice).........
Caithness is a BORING dump with ZILCH in the way of culture or cuisine..... it's the pits. It's cold, it's windy, it's full of sheep and people who have hair growing out of their ears........
Yeh, right.......... vote "YES".
Goodnight ;)
Tangerine-Dream
13-Nov-13, 00:50
Arrogance and narrow-mindeness springs to mind. If you don't like it then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LIVING IN SCOTLAND NOW??
I've come back to educate you and generally annoy you..... I love the way that small minded people have to resort to "why the hell are you living here then!" type retorts........
I didn't say I didn't like "scotland" did I?
Read what was written before you reply with such anger.
Peace out you unfortunate native of mediocrity.
piratelassie
13-Nov-13, 01:30
Even in the unlikely event of the Clyde losing a war ship contract after independence, given the cost of taking Portsmouth out of mothballs, there are many other ships to be built in the future including naval support ships which incidently have been built abroad for the MOD. BAE chose the Clyde for good reason and the war ships will be there by agreement between the Scottish and UK parliments.
Britain has never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain.
Could they? Probably. Would they? I doubt it.
cptdodger
13-Nov-13, 01:39
A couple of more points before I retire to my "english made" memory foam mattress.
The weather up here causes a big chip on the shoulder to a lot of people...... you will still envy the south even if you are "ruled" by fishy people.... it will be the "same" place apart from the fact that you will be cut off from the national grid and be even colder and miserable ;)
The English beat the crap out of the Scots hundreds of years ago..... get over it, you were outnumbered 20/1 (what do you expect)
William Wallace was a Welsh man (FACT!)
Iron Bru is disgusting
Mel Gibson is an "Australian" actor...... They couldn't find a WELSH actor to play the part of William Wallace..... (Max Boyce would have been my choice).........
Caithness is a BORING dump with ZILCH in the way of culture or cuisine..... it's the pits. It's cold, it's windy, it's full of sheep and people who have hair growing out of their ears........
Yeh, right.......... vote "YES".
Goodnight ;)
There is just no call for that. Caithness might not be my first choice for somewhere to live, but then I'm not from here, I am used to living in cities. And I certainly would not go out my way to insult the people and the area as you have.
Quite a shrewd move.
Not when you can see through it.
Not when you can see through it. transparent or not, it puts a lot of people in checkmate.
Arrogance and narrow-mindeness springs to mind. If you don't like it then WHY THE HELL ARE YOU LIVING IN SCOTLAND NOW??
Good question that,
Scotland more than pays her way and Westminster knows it, it is they who have to fear independence for they no longer will be riding high on Scotland's wealth.
Take Scotland and Wales out of the equasion and what are you left with..a government with big ideas and nowhere practice them on,
England is sunk or at least sinking..just ask those who are here, living in, working in, Scotland..they left England behind because Scotland is looking to the future
not like England whose ideas are stuck in the distant past,
Westminster's ideas of passports for those wishing to travel north or south of the border is like something dragged up from the Victorian era..when no passports are needed for other foreign countries within in EU, and folks can come and go as they please,
Hadrians Wall suddenly is likened to the Berlin Wall and all because Westminster/tories are afraid of losing their vast income from Scotland, and the
pittance they give Scotland back as hush money is a joke,
oh and by the way, I have a lot of english friends , living north of the border who will be voting for Scottish Independence because they know Scotland has got a bright future.
..just ask those who are here, living in, working in, Scotland..they left England behind because Scotland is looking to the future
Personally, I came for the view. On arrival I found thinking in Scotland lagging about 30 years behind England so I don't know who you've been talking to?
Personally, I came for the view. On arrival I found thinking in Scotland lagging about 30 years behind England so I don't know who you've been talking to?
Possibly because the government kept Scotland that way, unthinking entities following thy leader whether voted in or not!
With Independence this will end.
Good question that,
Scotland more than pays her way and Westminster knows it, it is they who have to fear independence for they no longer will be riding high on Scotland's wealth.
Take Scotland and Wales out of the equasion and what are you left with..a government with big ideas and nowhere practice them on,
England is sunk or at least sinking..just ask those who are here, living in, working in, Scotland..they left England behind because Scotland is looking to the future
not like England whose ideas are stuck in the distant past,
Westminster's ideas of passports for those wishing to travel north or south of the border is like something dragged up from the Victorian era..when no passports are needed for other foreign countries within in EU, and folks can come and go as they please,
Hadrians Wall suddenly is likened to the Berlin Wall and all because Westminster/tories are afraid of losing their vast income from Scotland, and the
pittance they give Scotland back as hush money is a joke,
oh and by the way, I have a lot of english friends , living north of the border who will be voting for Scottish Independence because they know Scotland has got a bright future.
Please support that by some hard facts and figures and truths
Please support that by some hard facts and figures and truths
Scotland overpays for UK debt - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-overpays-for-uk-debt-1-3185848#.UoNE0po7_60.twitter)
SNP respond to latest helping of Project Fear | Scottish National Party (http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/nov/snp-respond-latest-helping-project-fear)
Scotland overpays for UK debt - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland-overpays-for-uk-debt-1-3185848#.UoNE0po7_60.twitter)
SNP respond to latest helping of Project Fear | Scottish National Party (http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/nov/snp-respond-latest-helping-project-fear)
Thats not facts and figures, thats one newspaper report and some Snp propaganda, and sorry I believe neither.
Possibly because the government kept Scotland that way, unthinking entities following thy leader whether voted in or not!
With Independence this will end.
No I was thinking of the appalling attitude to foreigners and men's attitude to women.
RagnarRocks
14-Nov-13, 08:32
With regard to westwards comments on passports.A newly independent Scotland would not necessarily be a member of the EU, as of yet that decision has not been made. Therefor why wouldn't the United Kingdom and every other Country in the world expect people from this country to have a passport.Are you possibly suggesting that just by the fact of being Scottish you shouldn't require a passport for travel ?And since moving here I can't say the infrastructure is on par with down south I moved up here for a different way of life no more.
People from a newly independent Scotland would have a passport, In an Independent Scotland everyone living here would be entitled to the passport they were entitled to the day before Independence.
I will have a passport - a British Passport, Someone from Poland living here will have a Polish passport. My children will have a british passport.
Ultimately in an Independent Scotland you would be able to apply for a Scottish Passport but securing Independence will not remove your right to the passport you are currently entitled to.
Westward I think was referring to the lack of requirement to produce passports when you cross borders in the EU. Go from France to italy, from Belgium to Holland and often the only sign that you have crossed the border is the change in roadsigns.
RagnarRocks
14-Nov-13, 09:47
I guessed thats what his point was but as a newly independent Scotland would not be a member of the EU it would require passports unless we are all supposed to never travel outside these borders. Mind does make me wonder how many would trade their British passports for a new shiney Scottish ones.
Britain has never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain.
Could they? Probably. Would they? I doubt it.
So if Scotland votes for Independence, it will detach itself from the island of Great Britain and float off into the great unknown to become a non-British foreign country? Unlikely, I think.
Alternatively, if Scotland votes for Independence, the rUK will cut off its nose to spite its face, and place orders outwith the Island of Great Britain, because BAE systems has a yard in Scotland which is best placed to undertake the work.......and none currently in England without extensive investment in the two main English yards? More than possible, methinks.....but somewhat childish, imo.
The fact that they have never sanctioned the commissioning of a warship outside of Britain is not because they cannot.....but because they have never had to do so as they use a British company to undertake the work under Article 346, without tendering, in the "national interests", which is keeping as much of the benefit from jobs etc within the UK as possible.
The BAE yards in Scotland are not suddenly going to become rebranded Independent Scotland PLC, and a separate company registered only in Scotland, on an Independence vote.......are they? I guess that BAE could always build MOD stuff in their yards elsewhere in the world outside the British Isles..but then that would probably reduce the benefits to supply chain companies (and tax take) in the rUK as well as in Scotland.....and just illustrate that the rUk is petty and prone to tantrums.because if they can be built in Europe or the USA......why not in Scotland?.
I guessed thats what his point was but as a newly independent Scotland would not be a member of the EU it would require passports unless we are all supposed to never travel outside these borders. Mind does make me wonder how many would trade their British passports for a new shiney Scottish ones.Its unlikely you would need to trade. You could have dual nationality and hold both British and Scottish Passports
Also if the UK cant commission warships anywhere except the uk, how can they commission fighter jets from America?http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18919388
http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/opinion/the-nations-going-south-and-scotlands-paying-for-it.1384420754 Discuss in your own time and manner.
I guessed thats what his point was but as a newly independent Scotland would not be a member of the EU it would require passports unless we are all supposed to never travel outside these borders. Mind does make me wonder how many would trade their British passports for a new shiney Scottish ones.
Always with the caveat that I personally, would as soon not be in the EU........what do you mean by a newly independent Scotland? Do you mean a Scotland the day after the Referendum..or a Scotland on Independence Day in 2016? I should think that what applies to Scotland after the Referendum re the EU, if the result is yes, would also apply to rUK........as neither will be the UK which negotiated the original accession treaty......and both would have to negotiate new terms.
After all....rUK would be in no position to give the EU control over Scottish waters and allow EU members' fishing fleets free reign in them, as Heath did as a sweetener to get in...would they?
Passports, until 2016, is a strawman argument in this thread, as we will be in negotiations in the run up to Independence until then...with every entity with which we need to negotiate, including the EU. Doubtless between 2014 and 2016, Scottish Passports will be produced....just as the rUK will have to produce updated ones to remove the Great Britain from "The United Kingdom" for their use from Independence Day....but I'd guess that dual nationality will be allowed....at least until old passports, UK or otherwise, are due for renewal...and then what would happen would more depend on the rules in the issuing country, and have not a lot to do with Scotland.
To me, the more interesting scenario would be, if Scotland votes for Independence and joins the EU, the situation regarding passports if the rUK votes to leave the EU in 2017. Unlike current Westminster scaremongering, I can't see Scotland insisting there will be closed, guarded borders with passports..can you?
Also if the UK cant commission warships anywhere except the uk, how can they commission fighter jets from America?http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18919388
The Royal Navy has never commissioned a shipyard outside the UK to build a fighting ship because there are facets of the structure, fitting and contents that are highly classified. Obviously the Government and the Navy need to be able to collaborate during such work very closely. Come independence and separation the UKr government might well withdraw its support for Govan. Even if only in a fit of pique.
Where Britain has collaborated with NATO partners to build aircraft this has only been to build parts of the aircraft. The USA will not include much of their Avionics for instance and partners fit their own. When you say ‘collaboration’ it’s never 100% because governments have some things they will not share. There is a history of squabbles over engines, weapon systems as well as avionics.
I hope the Govan shipyards will get to build the Type 26 Frigate, even if it is only the hull and part of the superstructure; something is better than nothing and we need to preserve the skillbase.
Also if the UK cant commission warships anywhere except the uk, how can they commission fighter jets from America?http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18919388
The difference is that the "bought" the aircraft from America. An American company designed and built them, and Britain was allowed to buy them. That said, there will be a lot of elements that the British wouldn't have been allowed to buy, radars, weapon systems etc.
With warships, they are a unique, British design. If Britain decides to sell them to another country, fair enough, but until that time there will be a number of design aspects that the are confidential and hence can't be see by foreign eyes.
Try and find a photo of a propeller from a vanguard class submarine. Or a reactor. You won't. It's confidential, for approved UK eyes only.
The reason RFA and support ships are currently built abroad is that they are not confidential, and to supplement this the labour costs are so much lower than the UK. Govan etc don't get these contracts because they are far too expensive. Take away the "secrecy" aspect that Govan etc offer and they suddenly become a very unattractive option.
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