View Full Version : SNP having a stick and carrot day
outsidethebox
18-Oct-13, 17:21
Firstly, Nicola Sturgeon wielded the stick telling her conference that if the people of Scotland vote no to independence the first thing westminster will do is scrap the Barnett formula and therefore slash the money westminster gives to Scotland. Then she dangled the carrot explaining how if we vote yes they will cut our energy bills by 5%.
So rather than this being a conference with a positive upbeat message as promised by Salmond we are just getting the usual lies.
The Barnett formula could have been scrapped by any government that wanted to do so, the problem being that Labour governments are reliant on Scottish MP's so won't get rid, and this coalition government needs the Scottish LibDems, so won't get rid. I don't see any sign of a majority government in 2015, so really do not see any chance of Barnett being scrapped until at least 2020.
As to the 5% energy price cut, that is going to be delivered by cutting green subsidies.
Er, hello! The SNP are the ones driving the wind and tidal power initiatives, so they are likely to have to increase subsidies if they change them at all to get the amount of green power we need. It's the subsidies that are persuading companies to invest in wind and tidal, not the good of the planet.
It really is time the SNP started treating the people of Scotland with the respect they deserve. Treat us as adults. Tell us about your plans for Scotland, what you want to do with regard to the benefits system; what your plans are for the NHS. How you will ensure full employment; how you will ensure everyone in Scotland will have a decent house to live in. How the education system will be improved. How our defence force will be established, what it's remit will be. How we will be able to have a robust stable currency, independent of the economic decisions of the westminster government. How Scotland will be represented internationally. How they will protect our cyber security. How they plan to work towards increasing Scotlands food production. How they will ensure that we have sufficient electricity generating capacity to reliably meet our needs now and into the future.
These are just a few of the things that we need answers on NOW!
It is no good fudging the issue and saying that the SNP may not be the government. They are the ones pushing for independence. They are the party that will be negotiating our independence. It is up to them to start telling us how they see an independent Scotland, and telling us now. If they want to have any chance of winning the referendum they must tell us what we gain by voting yes.
Oh and when they explain all the above, and all the rest we need to know they might tell us will we have a decent, transparent, fair and above all progressive tax system. Or will they do their best to continue the current westminster trend of hiding as many taxes as possible, rather than being honest and taking tax from our income where we can all see it up front?
RagnarRocks
18-Oct-13, 19:21
I've often wondered what would happen if the govt scrapped all the various taxes on this and that and said right from now on its one tax for every pound you earn, how much do you think it would be 70,80% ?
outsidethebox
18-Oct-13, 19:36
Last figure I recollect is about 42%
We're still waiting to hear from the 'major' parties what THEIR plans are post-referendum; they all seem so confident in a 'no' vote why are they keeping their plans from us?
We're still waiting to hear from the 'major' parties what THEIR plans are post-referendum; they all seem so confident in a 'no' vote why are they keeping their plans from us?
Why do they need any plans?
outsidethebox
19-Oct-13, 10:54
let's make this easy.
there are 2 parties. Keep the stick whole party. break stick in half party. Currently the stick is whole. Keep stick whole party plan to do nothing to the stick. Break stick in half party plan to break stick in half, keep half for themselves, but they won't tell us how or where, or what they will do with their half of the stick.
let's make this easy.
there are 2 parties. Keep the stick whole party. break stick in half party. Currently the stick is whole. Keep stick whole party plan to do nothing to the stick. Break stick in half party plan to break stick in half, keep half for themselves, but they won't tell us how or where, or what they will do with their half of the stick.
Very nice analogy, except they plan to break 10% off the end of the stick and 90% of the population of the 90% of the stick er..won't notice. :lol:
outsidethebox
19-Oct-13, 11:19
I thought that level of detail may be too complex for some...
Why do they need any plans?
Well it might occur to some Scots to wonder what a NO vote would entail, e.g.
more public service cuts,
more benefit cuts,
more poverty (Fuel and Food),
removal of powers from the Scottish Parliament,
years and years of being governed by those whom Scotland didn't vote for,
even higher energy costs (because of network costs), to name but a few.
BTW, I can't quite equate the fact that we will soon be sending energy south over the new pylons yet the energy companies charge us more to send it back up here.
I expect there may be other forum members who also have questions about what the NO future may hold for Scots???
Well it might occur to some Scots to wonder what a NO vote would entail, e.g.
more public service cuts,
more benefit cuts,
more poverty (Fuel and Food),
removal of powers from the Scottish Parliament,
years and years of being governed by those whom Scotland didn't vote for,
even higher energy costs (because of network costs), to name but a few.
BTW, I can't quite equate the fact that we will soon be sending energy south over the new pylons yet the energy companies charge us more to send it back up here.
I expect there may be other forum members who also have questions about what the NO future may hold for Scots???
We have 59 MP's in Westminster that we Scots voted for already, I am reasonably content with the present Government, its not the best by any means, ( What Government is?), but I do not wish to go along with Eck Salmonds pies in the sky promises thank you.
Public Service, Benifit cuts are universal in the UK not just Scotland.
The present Government has never stated any where I have seen, that they will remove any powers from Holyrood.
Your using a favourite snp phrase I think "Scaremongering"
We have 59 MP's in Westminster that we Scots voted for already, I am reasonably content with the present Government, its not the best by any means, ( What Government is?), but I do not wish to go along with Eck Salmonds pies in the sky promises thank you.
Public Service, Benifit cuts are universal in the UK not just Scotland.
The present Government has never stated any where I have seen, that they will remove any powers from Holyrood.
Your using a favourite snp phrase I think "Scaremongering"
Only 11 Lib/Dems and 1 Tory MPs are from Scotland which means that roughly 20% of our elected MPs have any Governmental decision making powers.
The SNP might not form the next Scottish Government (although as reported in The Scotsman -"An Ipsos MORI poll conducted for STV shows that more voters would choose to vote for the SNP than any other political party").
I am aware of the universality of Benefit and Public Service cuts and also aware of the free prescriptions, free tuition, Council Tax freeze, higher economic growth (1.8% v 1.3%UK), higher employment figures, lower unemployment figures, crime at the lowest level for 37 years, 358 new schools built or refurbished, and lowest youth unemployment in the UK. I know what I would rather have.
Nothing concrete I grant you re. Holyrood but we likely won't get any additional powers and it is doubted if the Westminster Govt will leave the Scottish NHS alone - too successful. (A bit like the East Coast Main Line!)
So what's so scary?
I don't see any sign of a majority government in 2015, so really do not see any chance of Barnett being scrapped until at least 2020.
So you do admit that at some point in the future in all likelihood it will be scrapped?
As to the 5% energy price cut, that is going to be delivered by cutting green subsidies.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the proposal is not to cut the Green Subsidies but rather to fund them out of general taxation as opposed to the current system where they are added to energy bills?
thought you all might enjoy this :)
http://youtu.be/buiXDbgnc4M
outsidethebox
19-Oct-13, 17:55
I don't see any circumstances under which Barnett is likely to be scrapped at any time. I do however admit any government could (but none has so far). I do not however see any way in which any government would dare to do so prior to 2020 for the reasons I gave above. Please don't put words into my mouth.
lower unemployment figures, crime at the lowest level for 37 years, So what's so scary?
IF independence does happen, where all the thousands of ship building jobs going to go that are curently being paid for by the UK government for their Royal Naval ships? I see that as scary, especially for the shipbuilders. Foreign countries do not get Naval contracts for war ships
IF independence does happen, where all the thousands of ship building jobs going to go that are curently being paid for by the UK government for their Royal Naval ships? I see that as scary, especially for the shipbuilders. Foreign countries do not get Naval contracts for war ships
As in all things there will be winners & losers, that's life...
At least (in my opinion) in an Independent Scotland the losers won't be as harshly treated as they are now by the Westminster Government who currently see them as nothing more than the scum of the earth leaching off the rest of society with their I'm all right attitude.
IF independence does happen, where all the thousands of ship building jobs going to go that are curently being paid for by the UK government for their Royal Naval ships? I see that as scary, especially for the shipbuilders. Foreign countries do not get Naval contracts for war ships
Other Naval ships are built in non-UK countries e.g. the £400m+ contract for 4 tankers given to S. Korea last year.
Other Naval ships are built in non-UK countries e.g. the £400m+ contract for 4 tankers given to S. Korea last year.
They are not warships but Auxilliaries manned by civilians, so dont count. Hms Endurance is a research ship and icebreaker, built in Norway,
They are not warships but Auxilliaries manned by civilians, so dont count. Hms Endurance is a research ship and icebreaker, built in Norway,
If building these ships ensures Scottish jobs then they definitely DO count.
If building these ships ensures Scottish jobs then they definitely DO count.
So your happy to shut down the ship builders in the Clyde, Rosyth and Faslane then? With the loss of thousands of jobs and the loss of revenue
macadamia
19-Oct-13, 23:48
I had a bad dream last night.
And I did dream that the Land of Caledonia had fallen into the hands of Addle Saltire, Beefah Broon, and their cockopoo, Blandi. They were to rule from their fastness in Boat-of-Garten, surrounded by their closest colleagues Joseph Gorbals, Tartan Boreman, Screwball Guess, Poorman Goring, and "I'm Rich" Similar, all founder members of the SNooPy Party, who made sure every house had a free unicorn and no tax need ever be paid.
They were ultimately defeated by the legacy going back to the days of Flintstone Gerbil, who promised to "fright them off the beaches until so many become so few", in the days when the skies of Southern England were filled with Spatfeuds and Hurrypains, and thousands of Lanchester Bummers. They were finally defeated by the powers of Wastemonster, clearly led by the Leader of the Torries, Rabid Carborundam, and his sidekick, the petulant but biddable LIverish Demi-crat Nackered Clogg.
So your happy to shut down the ship builders in the Clyde, Rosyth and Faslane then? With the loss of thousands of jobs and the loss of revenue
Dumb question...
So you're happy to maintain that a highly skilled workforce can only build one type of vessel and if these orders disappear then the skills are unable to be transferred to building different vessels?
Aye, glass perpetually half-empty again.
Dumb question...
So you're happy to maintain that a highly skilled workforce can only build one type of vessel and if these orders disappear then the skills are unable to be transferred to building different vessels?
Aye, glass perpetually half-empty again.
Ach come on get a grip, the Clyde shipyards were only saved by building Naval ships. World shipping is not doing well these days. Building is being done cheaper in the Far East.
Ach come on get a grip, the Clyde shipyards were only saved by building Naval ships. World shipping is not doing well these days. Building is being done cheaper in the Far East.
Precisely why the yards wouldn't be likely to turn down orders for non-combat vessels.
There are plans for 10-12 Maritime Afloat Reach Sustainability Ships to be built over a number of years. These are non-combat vessels.
Yes it's cheaper in the Far East but they don't get the combat-ship orders anyway.
Apart from Trident maintenance is there much 'shipbuilding' at Faslane 'cause I can't find any evidence?
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