New Jobs for Scotland [Archive] - Caithness.Org Forums

Oddquine

04-Oct-13, 21:47

These new employees will be looking forward to 'phoning you to help you with your PPI, injury claims and pay day loans shortly. :roll:

Then it'll make a change not to have call centres based in England or in India etc who either argue with you (overseas ones) or get offended about your language (English ones)when you tell them that you're on the TPS and they're cold-calling so f-off. and in my case, screaming at them that they are using an old phone book and have the name wrong. . Be a lot easier with the Scots...just use the f word and off, and they will know fine you are irritated and just put down the phone.:Razz

We can't have it all ways....if we want folk off benefits.they need jobs......and, lets be honest, the growing jobs market is in annoying folk with cold calls by telephone...(though to be fair, they are not all cold calling.) Call Centres are the new factories of the 21st century but they don't make "things", they just make nuisances of themselves. That's what we have become under the Union, a country which employs a big proportion of its people to annoy the crap out of the rest of them.....and the taxpayers, generally, help pay their wages for the privilege of slamming the phone down on them.

You may like to give the impression the jobs announced by Salmond are PPI injury and PAY Day Loans cold callers jobs, because that suits your agenda........but how on earth can you cold call someone to take on a Student Loan, buy a bus/train ticket for example? There are outbound and inbound call centres.and some which do both, after all. Teleperformance appear to be more in the customer service arena than the "irritate anyone you think you have a phone number for" one.

I personally wouldn't work in a call centre in a cold-calling capacity for love nor money, but likely could in a centre providing what I perceived as a service, which would, at one time have been done by a wee mannie or wifie in a company or branch of a company...but nowadays is cheaper for companies to to shunt their query phone calls into a call centre because we, the taxpayer, will pick up the slack on their crap wages via working tax credits. I used to work in a bank which answered their own phone calls and dealt with them immediately (more or less)...now, with the same bank, I have to go through a call centre to even speak to someone in my branch..and I guarantee the wages of the nice folk in that particular call centre aren't as good as that received by those who used to field the same calls in branch.

What cheers me, isn't, tbh the call centre jobs.......but the fact that a year before the referendum that we are still getting internal investment despite the quotes I append.......

"I think the instability and the uncertainty that hangs over the Scottish economy (is) because of Alex Salmond raising the prospects of independence…

"I think that uncertainty is damaging investment in Scotland – and there are major businesses around the world who have asked me as chancellor in the last year 'tell us what is going on in Scotland - we're worried about making an investment in that country'." George Osborne, November 2011

"If Alex Salmond wants a referendum on independence, why do we wait until 2014? This is very damaging for Scotland because all the time businesses are asking 'Is Scotland going to stay part of the UK? Are they going to stay together? Should I invest'?" David Cameron 9th January 2012,

"With too long a period, we will just increase the uncertainty about Scotland's future, which will affect jobs, it will affect investment plans."
Michael Moore 25th January 2012

More from the UK party Scottish lickspittles on the same lines......but in the end in 2012/13 the number of foreign direct investment projects in Scotland increased by 16%, compared to 11% for the UK as a whole...so maybe the scaremongering from the UK mouthpieces were exactly that. It doesn't appear that businesses are nearly as worried about the prospect of Scottish Independence than they are about the possibility of the UK voting to leave the EU.

secrets in symmetry

04-Oct-13, 21:56

These new employees will be looking forward to 'phoning you to help you with your PPI, injury claims and pay day loans shortly. :roll:Don't forget roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, and all those automatically-dialled silent calls....

I rather like a future in which all the forum's secessionists are forced to take menial jobs in call centres - or lose their benefits!

squidge

04-Oct-13, 23:05

IF you have a look at teleperformance they appear to be mostly incoming calls handlers rather than cold calling. This indicates that they are unlikely to be jobs in PPI or roof insulation. Teleperformance are actually a global company, they have a turnover of over 2.5 billion and they have been operating since 1978.

Call Centre work is not the best paid nor the most exciting work but you know it is work and it is inward investment and we should be celebrating this. They often offer flexible hours and varied shifts and a range of part time and full time opportunities. They are jobs and we need jobs so I am pleased to hear of the 1000 new jobs.

PantsMAN

04-Oct-13, 23:54

Don't forget roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, and all those automatically-dialled silent calls....

I rather like a future in which all the forum's secessionists are forced to take menial jobs in call centres - or lose their benefits!

Ah, the joys of being smug, self-centred and pathetic.

Just what we've come to expect from the poor souls who need the security of having Westminster to make all their decisions.

Get a good grip of that forelock and TUG!

mi16

05-Oct-13, 08:31

Don't forget roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, and all those automatically-dialled silent calls....I rather like a future in which all the forum's secessionists are forced to take menial jobs in call centres - or lose their benefits!Surely a job in a call centre is preferable to a life on the brew, however I did note an earlier poster stating they would not work in a call centre "for love nor money"Such a poor attitude towards paid work.

squidge

05-Oct-13, 08:36

Don't forget roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, and all those automatically-dialled silent calls....

I rather like a future in which all the forum's secessionists are forced to take menial jobs in call centres - or lose their benefits!

At least they would be getting a wage rather than being subjected to workfare. I have worked in a call centre and I enjoyed it. A job is a job and the vast majority would rather be working than claiming benefit.

ducati

05-Oct-13, 08:37

Big Gaz

05-Oct-13, 08:58

[QUOTE=I rather like a future in which all the forum's secessionists are forced to take menial jobs in call centres - or lose their benefits![/QUOTE]

You just can't stop harping on about secessionists and how they are the lowest of the low. Now everyone who wants independence on this forum and is unemployed, should be forced to work eh? You just haven't got a clue at times! So where do you get your information from? the Better Together spin doctor or do you hang out with the pre-school kids?

Alrock

05-Oct-13, 09:33

I went for a job in a call centre once (BT).... Failed the personality test... :roll:

tonkatojo

05-Oct-13, 09:55

It must be great to be able to 'sniffy' about the jobs other people have to do.

Genghis Khan is alive and well and posting on another thread about the evil unemployed.

Compassion? Understanding? Respect for others? Not here apparently.

This thread could be construed as "spot the tory".

tonkatojo

05-Oct-13, 14:54

The reason I highlighted Alex's coupe is that these sort of jobs are very short lived indeed. Typically, peeps would be in the job then back on the dole before the paperwork is completed.

However SIS, these are not menial jobs. Successful outcalling salespeople can earn the sort of money a mere scientist like you could only dream of. And it won't have to be provided by the taxpayer.

An interesting point at least I thought so, my nephew's lad has been to all sort of 17 year old job interviews to no avail but was offered an "apprenticeship" in a call centre on Tyneside. I have looked and cannot find the equivalent thing in Scotland, the point I am making is is this what being an apprentice is nowadays ?, or is this just one of the tory creations to say we have created X amount of apprenticeships. When I started my apprenticeship it was for 5 years including day release for college, I really do pity the youth of today if this is a choice of vocation now, how long is this apprenticeship I wonder.

ducati

05-Oct-13, 15:49

An interesting point at least I thought so, my nephew's lad has been to all sort of 17 year old job interviews to no avail but was offered an "apprenticeship" in a call centre on Tyneside. I have looked and cannot find the equivalent thing in Scotland, the point I am making is is this what being an apprentice is nowadays ?, or is this just one of the tory creations to say we have created X amount of apprenticeships. When I started my apprenticeship it was for 5 years including day release for college, I really do pity the youth of today if this is a choice of vocation now, how long is this apprenticeship I wonder.

Now who is being the snob? I've had a long and happy career in sales, probably earned a lot more over the time than I would have if I'd followed all my class mates into engineering apprenticeships.

secrets in symmetry

05-Oct-13, 16:02

Surely a job in a call centre is preferable to a life on the brew, however I did note an earlier poster stating they would not work in a call centre "for love nor money"Such a poor attitude towards paid work.Yes, of course it's better than life on the buroo, and that's why the government should "encourage" the unemployed to find a job - any job!

secrets in symmetry

05-Oct-13, 16:05

However SIS, these are not menial jobs. Successful outcalling salespeople can earn the sort of money a mere scientist like you could only dream of. And it won't have to be provided by the taxpayer.A lot of these jobs are menial - you just have to speak to a script-reading phone jockey for a couple of minutes to see this. Other people are paid to annoy people by phoning them!

I wouldn't be a scientist if all I wanted was to make a lot of money!

secrets in symmetry

05-Oct-13, 16:08

I went for a job in a call centre once (BT).... Failed the personality test... :roll:I'd probably fail it too. :cool:

Oddquine

05-Oct-13, 19:13

Surely a job in a call centre is preferable to a life on the brew, however I did note an earlier poster stating they would not work in a call centre "for love nor money"Such a poor attitude towards paid work.

I would rather scrub floors than hack off the likes of me with cold calls which could get less savvy people in real trouble. Cold calls are not just PPI and Payday loans (neither of which I have had in my life)...cold calls are also scammers saying they are from Microsoft or BT and your computer is infected..or pricks talking people into taking on stuff they neither need or want...there is a lot of benefit in being extremely cynical, I have found...but everybody is not.

So are you saying that if the only job you could find to "pay your way" and "not take benefits" is one which compels you to con people into parting with their money for nothing they really want, need or can afford...you would be happy to do that? What does that say about you, I wonder?

Oddquine

05-Oct-13, 19:56

Ah, the joys of being smug, self-centred and pathetic.

Just what we've come to expect from the poor souls who need the security of having Westminster to make all their decisions.

Get a good grip of that forelock and TUG!

But secrets in symmetry is smug, self-centred and pathetic...hadn't you noticed, most of the rest of us have...and into the bargain..he appears dependent on Westminster largesse. As a "scientist" does he believe his funding will disappear like snow off a dyke if we don't cling to the rUK's coat-tails? As an ordinary punter.....seems to me if his "science" was worth anything, the funding will come to him wherever he lives, if his ideas are good enough to be worth pursuing further.

mi16

05-Oct-13, 20:09

I would rather scrub floors than hack off the likes of me with cold calls which could get less savvy people in real trouble. Cold calls are not just PPI and Payday loans (neither of which I have had in my life)...cold calls are also scammers saying they are from Microsoft or BT and your computer is infected..or pricks talking people into taking on stuff they neither need or want...there is a lot of benefit in being extremely cynical, I have found...but everybody is not. So are you saying that if the only job you could find to "pay your way" and "not take benefits" is one which compels you to con people into parting with their money for nothing they really want, need or can afford...you would be happy to do that? What does that say about you, I wonder?So long as the job requirements were the correct side of the law I would be fine with it.

equusdriving

05-Oct-13, 20:14

is one which compels you to con people into parting with their money for nothing they really want, need or can afford..
so just like an Independence fundraiser then?

Oddquine

05-Oct-13, 21:05

So long as the job requirements were the correct side of the law I would be fine with it.

So you are happy with a law which doesn't stop the sale of UK phone numbers to anyone in the world because that will get some UK company a profit? So you are happy with those non UK Companies who buy our phone numbers scamming our people for profit? And if you got the chance to do it, the morality of it is less important than the legality of it as long as you got an income out of it?

So on that premise, you approve of the tax avoidance actions of Companies which bilk you and me out of about £5.5billion annually, because they are legal, as our Government couldn't produce a law which ever worked to the benefit of the country and not that of businesses (and their own post-political careers)? Just think how much good that income would do in the Uk........maybe stop the bedroom tax which has doubled the number of Highland families with arrears or prevent the suicide of people chucked off disability by ATOS (which incidentally costs us £1.6bn annually..and that doesn't count the cost of appeals against their decisions.)

How chuffed are you that what Scotland votes makes next to no odds in the UK scheme of things.....given Scotland has not voted majority Tory since 1955.......we learned our lesson after Suez.

tonkatojo

05-Oct-13, 22:36

Now who is being the snob? I've had a long and happy career in sales, probably earned a lot more over the time than I would have if I'd followed all my class mates into engineering apprenticeships.

Nothing snobbish in my comment, just an observation of what tory "apprenticeships" have denigrated too. It is a bit like the old 6 week courses that turned out plumbers, joiners, bricklayers and numerous clueless professionals, they have a tv program about them it's called "cowboy builders" I think. I presume your sales was a dodgy car salesman LOL (jesting).

secrets in symmetry

05-Oct-13, 23:52

Now who is being the snob? I've had a long and happy career in sales, probably earned a lot more over the time than I would have if I'd followed all my class mates into engineering apprenticeships.I dare say you have earned a good living in sales, which is good - for all of us. :cool:

There is a problem with pay and respect for engineers and scientists in this country. It's very different in other countries, for example in Germany, in the USA, in China, and perhaps also in many other countries that weathered the recent financial and economic crises better than we did.

mi16

06-Oct-13, 10:53

So you are happy with a law which doesn't stop the sale of UK phone numbers to anyone in the world because that will get some UK company a profit? So you are happy with those non UK Companies who buy our phone numbers scamming our people for profit? And if you got the chance to do it, the morality of it is less important than the legality of it as long as you got an income out of it? So on that premise, you approve of the tax avoidance actions of Companies which bilk you and me out of about £5.5billion annually, because they are legal, as our Government couldn't produce a law which ever worked to the benefit of the country and not that of businesses (and their own post-political careers)? Just think how much good that income would do in the Uk........maybe stop the bedroom tax which has doubled the number of Highland families with arrears or prevent the suicide of people chucked off disability by ATOS (which incidentally costs us £1.6bn annually..and that doesn't count the cost of appeals against their decisions.)How chuffed are you that what Scotland votes makes next to no odds in the UK scheme of things.....given Scotland has not voted majority Tory since 1955.......we learned our lesson after Suez.I cannot see how your logic ties together.Your first point I have no issue with.The second and third I disagree with

weezer 316

07-Oct-13, 12:55

I must say oddaqquine, your complete lack or worldliness is astonishing. I like you swipe at Indian and English call centres, very mature. Its also, complete nonsense.

When I worked for BT, almost 30% of incoming call takers were based in Scotland. Do you know why that was? Lets face it, has to be a pretty odd reason for a huge UK company to actually invest in Scotland, and its got to be bonkers to invest in such a disproportionate way when we contribute about 5% of BT's Revenue, compared to about 60% in England.

Now why would that be? Why would they buck the govt that's shafting us at every turn and do that?

squidge

07-Oct-13, 13:40

Its cheaper. They can pay call handlers and second line support and technical staff significantly less than they get paid in yhe south of england. Property and offices are cheaper too.

mi16

07-Oct-13, 14:18

It's a win, win, win scenario then

weezer 316

07-Oct-13, 15:34

Its cheaper. They can pay call handlers and second line support and technical staff significantly less than they get paid in yhe south of england. Property and offices are cheaper too.

Wrong answer. National Pay scales outside of London in BT, hence the reason I earned the same as someone in the same job in Birmingham. Want to try again? Even if it wasnt national payscales, Edinburgh and in particular Aberdeen (Where BT has a large call centre) are far ore expensive per hour than your average brummie.

ducati

07-Oct-13, 15:40

I know, I know.

Alice in Blunderland

07-Oct-13, 15:53

Wrong answer. National Pay scales outside of London in BT, hence the reason I earned the same as someone in the same job in Birmingham. Want to try again? Even if it wasnt national payscales, Edinburgh and in particular Aberdeen (Where BT has a large call centre) are far ore expensive per hour than your average brummie.Are all BT call centre staff employed by BT my friend was working in a BT call centre employed by a company subcontracted by BT on a much lower wage than her BT equivalent.A cheeky way of getting the work done on the cheap I always thought.

weezer 316

07-Oct-13, 16:10

Nah, some are agency. I used to be manpower and earned less than guys below me who were BT. That' changed now, equivelant pay is now the law, agency or not.

Anyway, want to try again Squidge? Your default theory for all things investment in Scotland related was wrong. Any other ideas?

cptdodger

07-Oct-13, 17:06

Wrong answer. National Pay scales outside of London in BT, hence the reason I earned the same as someone in the same job in Birmingham. Want to try again? Even if it wasnt national payscales, Edinburgh and in particular Aberdeen (Where BT has a large call centre) are far ore expensive per hour than your average brummie.

I was subcontracted by Clientlogic (Sitel) then Manpower to work for BT in Dundee, between 2004 and 2007. I remember a big hoo ha because the people who worked in Newcastle, doing the same job, earned a pound an hour more than us. So, I think it depends on what you did and where you did it.

squidge

07-Oct-13, 17:53

Weezer. Call centres are not just BT tho. Several outsourcing companies have moved contracts to Scotland precisely because it is cheaper. In fact the Company delivering support for the Met Police is located in the highlands. More work ia heading north because it costs less.

Work was moved from London and from Birmingham to inverness and Nairn because it is cheaper. It might not be true for BT but there are other companies for whom it IS true

weezer 316

07-Oct-13, 21:10

orkneycadian

07-Oct-13, 21:15

secrets in symmetry

07-Oct-13, 22:46

I would be all for more incoming call centre operators. Anything to stop the perpetual loop of "Your call is important to us. Please hold for the next available operator"

But cold callers who prey on the vulnerable with their incessant sales patter should be ashamed of themselves. On a number of occaisons, I have been at my mothers house when she has received them, and have witnessed how difficult she finds it to tell them to go away, and the resultant annoyance that she then suffers.

Re-allocate cold callers to incoming call receivers and problem solved - Simples.You're right - I was thinking of cold callers only.

Today, I had a call from an affable-sounding Irishman who worked for British Gas. He sounded genuinely surprised that I didn't even want to hear the offer he had prepared for me due to my status as a longstanding customer. Some of these people are wasted in call centres, Sean should be on Broadway!

ducati

08-Oct-13, 08:11

You're right - I was thinking of cold callers only.

Today, I had a call from an affable-sounding Irishman who worked for British Gas. He sounded genuinely surprised that I didn't even want to hear the offer he had prepared for me due to my status as a longstanding customer. Some of these people are wasted in call centres, Sean should be on Broadway!

OK We agree we need business don't we? Apart from odddude who seems to think it is the devils work. Business needs one thing to employ all the engineers and scientists they employ and that is to sell all the stuff that the scientists develop and the engineers build. If it wasn't for sales activity no one would have a job. So, if you are offered an opportunity to invest in a Nigerian diamond mine via an ex-bank manager with a suitcase full of cash, that isn't selling right? it is a crimminal scam, don't get the two confused.

orkneycadian

08-Oct-13, 21:07

Business has operated for centuries without the need for cold calling (Jehovahs Witnesses excepted...), spam mails and paper junk mail. That some nowadays can't be bothered to market their services properly is no reason for the majority of the populous to have to endure their unwanted antics.

Oddquine

08-Oct-13, 22:27

CPT, likely BT staff at the time in Newcastle. Saying that client logic were always twats. certianly BT and manpower were standard. You had payscales Across the country. The staff in BT now here are huge winners from it, they earn a fortune. Should have bloody stayed!

Squidge, westminster council calls are handled in Inverness and dingwall too. Again though, thats not the point. Anywhere in the world is cheaper than central london, outside that its not cheaper. Infact, check the graphic below and you will see we cost the same as England outside of london, and in many cases, Aberdeen and Edinburgh again, more.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/nov/24/wages-britain-ashe-mapped#zoomed-picture

Now it just shows how handy being in the union is eh? I cant imagine Dublin getting investment to deal with calls from central london can you? Why put them to Scotland, which has lower unemployment and higher wages than the likes of lincolnshire? Scratch our back and we scratch yours and all that....

Now, for the record, the reason stuff is punted here out of proportion to our population is, according to BT in the many daft briefings you get, because Scottish advisors consistently do well in their customer satisfaction scores. I had a few remark on how much the Scottish accent helps on the phone. India is waaaaay cheaper, how are all the calls not handled there?

What has being in the Union to do with it? Is India in the Union?

If it is as cheap..if not cheaper, to have call centres in Scotland, with employees who consistently do well regarding customer satisfaction (unlike those in India)....why would they move their call centres elsewhere...as I would assume they will continue to provide the telephone lines and ancillary services for profit in Scotland after Independence. After all....they have call centres for BT Ireland in Ireland.

Can't really understand why nobody grasps that big companies go where profits can be made......as evidenced by the level of increase in inward investment to Scotland despite the UK Government scare-mongering.....and the number of companies who have decided that Indian call-centres were in danger of losing them more customers than their preferred profit percentage could stand....and have moved at least a proportion of them back to the UK.

ducati

08-Oct-13, 23:30

orkneycadian

08-Oct-13, 23:49

ducati

09-Oct-13, 11:02

I believe the technique is called, rather appropriately given Ducati's present line of thinking, the scatter gun approach. It doesnt seem to matter if 98% of the population get pee'd off with the cold calling, as long as 2% are gullible enough to fall for it, and cover the costs of the exercise.

Whether or not the jobs that are sustained are fair exchange for the money the victims were diddled out of is another matter.

Really? The advertising and marketing agencies that run these campaigns are quite sophisticated. Probably the Stats involved are a bit beyond the average drooling, gun toting, six fingered banjo player so I wouldn't worry yourself about it.

Oddquine

09-Oct-13, 18:59

Really? The advertising and marketing agencies that run these campaigns are quite sophisticated. Probably the Stats involved are a bit beyond the average drooling, gun toting, six fingered banjo player so I wouldn't worry yourself about it.

And when did sophisticated, in the brave new world of UK Friedman/Reagan/since Thatcher UK market PLC, mean anything other than more up-to-date methods of screwing people out of their cash for profit?

I have always had a rule of thumb..if it is being advertised at enormous expense on TV and in full page adverts in the papers.....there is nothing in it to recommend it more than the item I have been using for years and which does much the same thing more cheaply. (and it is probably cheaper because they don't spend silly money to add to costs which have to be covered by inflated item pricing, in order to make profit and pay advertising and marketing agencies for quite sophisticated campaigns).

Since the day I first saw the Anadin advert.....and wondered why some really silly person was paying to advertise nothing as in "Nothing works faster than Anadin"....and wondering why that promoted Anadin, I have always considered advertising and marketing as a con (by people with little grasp of the English language) much on the same lines as the current cold calling epidemic...because adverts and cold callers target the unthinking who do knee-jerk ...as in "this is a big brand I must have it because my neighbour might have...and if he doesn't, I'm one up on him"....and in the case of cold callers...add the unsophisticated and vulnerable to the terminally stupid.

So, on principle, I never buy anything I see advertised on TV...or in full page adverts in newspapers.To be fair..some of the adverts I do like...some of them are a lot better than the programmes nowadays...love the Meerkat ones....but no advert, however good, is going to persuade me to buy anything ever. In these internet days...what is the point of TV advertising at great cost anyway when nearly every company in the world has an equally pointless FaceBook page?

I'm not saying I don't ever buy something which has been advertised, though....because I probably do...but I don't buy it as a result of advertising...but because I am looking for something to do a specific job.......and in the supermarket or corner shoppie, I read all the blurb on the back of all the available items and choose the one appropriate to my needs at the time. Though tbh. can't help thinking that marketing agencies lie through their teeth a lot as well though.....because I have so far bought six different items from (I think) six different companies, based on their "how to use it and what it will do blurb...and so far none of it has worked.....when all of it should have. ...if you are to believe anything they say.

If you are trying to be snide about those of us who abhor the non-fecking jobs you appear to support, ducati....let me tell you that I am a fairly well educated Scottish female with the ability to think for herself and not slavishly follow the dictat of Governments, advertising agencies and marketing companies....or the MSM. I do have some very small qualification in the area of Business Marketing, Advertising and Finance.......though admittedly in the era before God became Money and the Bible became how to make the most money and ........but I am quite sure you will forgive me if I say that if anyone on this forum is a drooling, gun toting, six fingered banjo player.....it is you...and maybe one or two others who post on here......but not orkneycacadian...or me.

ducati

09-Oct-13, 20:33

And when did sophisticated, in the brave new world of UK Friedman/Reagan/since Thatcher UK market PLC, mean anything other than more up-to-date methods of screwing people out of their cash for profit?

I have always had a rule of thumb..if it is being advertised at enormous expense on TV and in full page adverts in the papers.....there is nothing in it to recommend it more than the item I have been using for years and which does much the same thing more cheaply. (and it is probably cheaper because they don't spend silly money to add to costs which have to be covered by inflated item pricing, in order to make profit and pay advertising and marketing agencies for quite sophisticated campaigns).

Since the day I first saw the Anadin advert.....and wondered why some really silly person was paying to advertise nothing as in "Nothing works faster than Anadin"....and wondering why that promoted Anadin, I have always considered advertising and marketing as a con (by people with little grasp of the English language) much on the same lines as the current cold calling epidemic...because adverts and cold callers target the unthinking who do knee-jerk ...as in "this is a big brand I must have it because my neighbour might have...and if he doesn't, I'm one up on him"....and in the case of cold callers...add the unsophisticated and vulnerable to the terminally stupid.

So, on principle, I never buy anything I see advertised on TV...or in full page adverts in newspapers.To be fair..some of the adverts I do like...some of them are a lot better than the programmes nowadays...love the Meerkat ones....but no advert, however good, is going to persuade me to buy anything ever. In these internet days...what is the point of TV advertising at great cost anyway when nearly every company in the world has an equally pointless FaceBook page?

I'm not saying I don't ever buy something which has been advertised, though....because I probably do...but I don't buy it as a result of advertising...but because I am looking for something to do a specific job.......and in the supermarket or corner shoppie, I read all the blurb on the back of all the available items and choose the one appropriate to my needs at the time. Though tbh. can't help thinking that marketing agencies lie through their teeth a lot as well though.....because I have so far bought six different items from (I think) six different companies, based on their "how to use it and what it will do blurb...and so far none of it has worked.....when all of it should have. ...if you are to believe anything they say.

If you are trying to be snide about those of us who abhor the non-fecking jobs you appear to support, ducati....let me tell you that I am a fairly well educated Scottish female with the ability to think for herself and not slavishly follow the dictat of Governments, advertising agencies and marketing companies....or the MSM. I do have some very small qualification in the area of Business Marketing, Advertising and Finance.......though admittedly in the era before God became Money and the Bible became how to make the most money and ........but I am quite sure you will forgive me if I say that if anyone on this forum is a drooling, gun toting, six fingered banjo player.....it is you...and maybe one or two others who post on here......but not orkneycacadian...or me.

Lol, I beg to differ, I don't have a gun. :lol: BTW How about a list of proper jobs from you just so we know how we are to employ our time in a way that would meet approval?

Oddquine

09-Oct-13, 21:33

Lol, I beg to differ, I don't have a gun. :lol: BTW How about a list of proper jobs from you just so we know how we are to employ our time in a way that would meet approval?

What others do have no need to meet my approval...but they should be meeting society's approval...is that not what democracy is all about.......and I really don't think that many, apart from you, and those making profits from it actually believe that outbound calls from call centres are anything other than a complete irritation? Let's be honest, if someone is incapable of picking up a phone and calling a company with a service/good in which they are interested on their own volition......then they are incapable of saying f-off to a cold caller with good patter.

But given society, in the UK, is down to the Government.....and the Government consists of a disproportionately large proportion of millionaires, with no idea how the average punter lives.....far less the disadvantaged punter.....they don't represent society...given their focus definitely appears to be deciding which policies they can introduce to satisfy and accomplish their political convictions..and, with a bit of luck, get them in a position to acquire a lucrative part-time directorship in one of the companies they have helped instead of giving more of a toss for those who voted them into office, as opposed to those who paid for the advertising and marketing agenciesto get them into Government.

If that kind of Government suits you..then fine...takes all sorts!

secrets in symmetry

09-Oct-13, 23:16

OK We agree we need business don't we? Business needs one thing to employ all the engineers and scientists they employ and that is to sell all the stuff that the scientists develop and the engineers build. If it wasn't for sales activity no one would have a job.Indeed.

However...

Sean from British Gas was just a nuisance. I was at work, and I didn't have half an hour to listen to chat from someone who was acting as if I was his long lost friend, and who claimed he was trying to secure me a good deal on something or other. He waffled on for so long that I still don't know what it was he was trying to sell lol!

More annoying are the halfwits trying to sell roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, etc. They call back repeatedly despite being told I don't want them ever to phone me again. I know they're script jockeys because they all reel off the same patronising nonsense. Threatening to report them to police for harrassment if they do it again seems to have got rid of them at last. :cool:

ducati

09-Oct-13, 23:36

Indeed.

However...

Sean from British Gas was just a nuisance. I was at work, and I didn't have half an hour to listen to chat from someone who was acting as if I was his long lost friend, and who claimed he was trying to secure me a good deal on something or other. He waffled on for so long that I still don't know what it was he was trying to sell lol!

More annoying are the halfwits trying to sell roof insulation, cavity wall insulation, solar panels, etc. They call back repeatedly despite being told I don't want them ever to phone me again. I know they're script jockeys because they all reel off the same patronising nonsense. Threatening to report them to police for harrassment if they do it again seems to have got rid of them at last. :cool:

But, don't scientists develop roof insulation, cavity wall insulation and solar panels? You can't have it both ways. Be careful, you'll be on the list of useless to society professions.

Hated and villified Sean (if he is any good) probably sells about 50 to 100 deals a week for which he gets about £25 a go. To do that he probably speaks to 500 punters so you have earned him £2.50 to £5.00 (so he's probably the one taking the piss out of you). That's the way it works. :D

secrets in symmetry

10-Oct-13, 23:11

But, don't scientists develop roof insulation, cavity wall insulation and solar panels? You can't have it both ways. Be careful, you'll be on the list of useless to society professions.

Hated and villified Sean (if he is any good) probably sells about 50 to 100 deals a week for which he gets about £25 a go. To do that he probably speaks to 500 punters so you have earned him £2.50 to £5.00 (so he's probably the one taking the piss out of you). That's the way it works. :DLol!

I couldn't hate Sean, he was funny, not detestable. If he could learn to get to the point, he could make more calls per hour and perhaps make more money. :cool:

The downside is that he'd annoy more people lol.

Seriously though, I accept your point about industry needing good sales teams in order to sell stuff, but the roof insulation, cavity wall insulation and solar panels sales people that have called me in the last couple of years were not good. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they were hopeless, and they were certainly no more convincing than the Indian eejits that occasionally try to convince me to give them control of a Windows PC.

ducati

11-Oct-13, 09:19

Lol!

I couldn't hate Sean, he was funny, not detestable. If he could learn to get to the point, he could make more calls per hour and perhaps make more money. :cool:

The downside is that he'd annoy more people lol.

Seriously though, I accept your point about industry needing good sales teams in order to sell stuff, but the roof insulation, cavity wall insulation and solar panels sales people that have called me in the last couple of years were not good. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they were hopeless, and they were certainly no more convincing than the Indian eejits that occasionally try to convince me to give them control of a Windows PC.

I agree that the quality of sales people is poor in many areas. My bugbear is life insurance. As an ex Financial Adviser I am at a loss to know how you can effect a proper consultation over the 'phone. I've spent a large part of the last 20 years training sales people and it worries me that companies would rather throw job centre mud at the wall than invest in a professional sales force.

This is why I highlighted these jobs in the first place. How does it effect jobs figures if you mass recruit knowing that (maybe) 1 in 100 will last more than a couple of months?

Oddquine

11-Oct-13, 10:25

I agree that the quality of sales people is poor in many areas. My bugbear is life insurance. As an ex Financial Adviser I am at a loss to know how you can effect a proper consultation over the 'phone. I've spent a large part of the last 20 years training sales people and it worries me that companies would rather throw job centre mud at the wall than invest in a professional sales force.

This is why I highlighted these jobs in the first place. How does it effect jobs figures if you mass recruit knowing that (maybe) 1 in 100 will last more than a couple of months?

But when did that become a problem for the UK Government.....or businesses...the short-termism of employment? What counts for Government is getting people off unemployment, increasing the employment figures, even if only in the short-term...and "cutting public expenditure" by cutting back on benefits...not MPs salaries and expenses or the salaries of Civil Service Mandarins and the bankers in our "nationalised" banks... in the forlorn hope they can cut the continuing Government borrowing by that route. Businesses will do what it takes to make profits..hence the passion by both for non-jobs, like workfare and zero-hours contracts. The punter has little option but to take what is on offer..especially if they are under 25. Telesales irritate us...and if they irritate us enough, there will be diminishing returns for the companies involved in them, both the businesses selling...and the ones providing the call centres..and it serves them right!

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 01:52

ducati

12-Oct-13, 08:37

Are you saying that only 1% of employees in call centres last more than a couple of months?

Certain types of call centres, yes.

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 12:41

Does anyone know how long the median (or average) length of employment at the call centre in Thurso is?

ducati

12-Oct-13, 17:50

Does anyone know how long the median (or average) length of employment at the call centre in Thurso is?

Put it this way, everybody I know (in Caithness) used to work there. :lol:

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 18:02

Put it this way, everybody I know (in Caithness) used to work there. :lol:Lol!

You're right though - I know more people that used to work there than used to work at Dounreay!

cptdodger

12-Oct-13, 19:37

Does anyone know how long the median (or average) length of employment at the call centre in Thurso is?

Personally, I worked for BT in Dundee (at two different Call centres - Sitel & Manpower) from 2004 -2007. I did various jobs mainly dealing with business broadband, then latterly "The Phone Book". I left due to the way I was treated by Manpower, and I would never work for them again, the mistake they made with me was treating me like a 16 year old school leaver, that had no knowledge of employment law! My partner, however was an IT engineer in Dundee (BT) (one of three) and he was asked if he would like to move to Thurso, as the engineer there had left. He was told, and I quote, "your job will be safe" he was made redundant within the year. Something that BT knew was happening before we moved - they just forgot to tell us - his job was given to somebody on a BT contract opposed to a Manpower contract, which he was on. Now, I can't answer for Thurso, but if you treat people like (whatever - I wo'nt swear on here!!) then it is no surprise there is a high turnover in staff.

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 20:12

Was there a big turnover of staff at the call centres you worked at in Dundee?

cptdodger

12-Oct-13, 20:22

Was there a big turnover of staff at the call centres you worked at in Dundee?

It's hard to say, only because a lot of the people they took on were students. However, there are people who are still working there today, that had been there for quite a number of years - but they had BT contracts, and were paid a lot better than we were. Sitel (the first call centre I worked for) has since closed, so a lot of people lost their jobs. The last job I did in Ward Rd in Dundee, was, as I said the phone book. I left in the July of 2007 (it could have been 2008 thinking about it) and started work at Abertay University, on the same road as BT, so I still saw people I had worked with, and one day a friend of mine came in to say that everybody with a manpower contract, had been sacked (I'm not sure that's the right word), but anyway, a lot of people were out of work with absolutely no warning that day, such a shame.

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 21:20

mi16

12-Oct-13, 21:48

It's interesting - and extremely worrying if I understand correctly - that different companies offered different rates of pay and sued different contracts to people who were doing essentially the same job. Is that correct?It happens all the time and not only in call centre work, you have to negotiate your own deal and sign on e you are happy with the package.

secrets in symmetry

12-Oct-13, 22:05

It happens all the time and not only in call centre work, you have to negotiate your own deal and sign on e you are happy with the package.I suppose so, but I would have hoped that mass-market work in call centres would somehow have standard pay and conditions. How naive are the idealists?

cptdodger

12-Oct-13, 22:50

It's interesting - and extremely worrying if I understand correctly - that different companies offered different rates of pay and issued different contracts to people who were doing essentially the same job. Is that correct?

Yes. I would be sitting next to somebody on a BT contract doing exactly the same job, earning two or three pounds an hour (at least) more than me. It was the same when I worked for Search, before I got my Clientlogic (Sitel) contract. My partner, when he was IT in Dundee was on just over £7 per hour, one of the people he worked with, again doing the same job was on over £18 per hour, although he was basically self employed.

Alrock

13-Oct-13, 01:50

Yes. I would be sitting next to somebody on a BT contract doing exactly the same job, earning two or three pounds an hour (at least) more than me. It was the same when I worked for Search, before I got my Clientlogic (Sitel) contract. My partner, when he was IT in Dundee was on just over £7 per hour, one of the people he worked with, again doing the same job was on over £18 per hour, although he was basically self employed.

That's market forces & the drive for ever increasing profit for you... Fairness doesn't come into it.

mi16

13-Oct-13, 08:41

Yes. I would be sitting next to somebody on a BT contract doing exactly the same job, earning two or three pounds an hour (at least) more than me. It was the same when I worked for Search, before I got my Clientlogic (Sitel) contract. My partner, when he was IT in Dundee was on just over £7 per hour, one of the people he worked with, again doing the same job was on over £18 per hour, although he was basically self employed.The self employed however do not get sick pay, holiday pay or pension contributions plus they have to pay paye, nic, vat and corporation tax then there is insurance and bookkeeping fees to come out of their rate

cptdodger

13-Oct-13, 12:17

The self employed however do not get sick pay, holiday pay or pension contributions plus they have to pay paye, nic, vat and corporation tax then there is insurance and bookkeeping fees to come out of their rate

I totally agree mi16, my partner did look into going self employed, but that's what stopped him. I was just trying to show secrets in symmetry the difference in wage structures, within one company (BT). Also, because they were basically contractors, they could just get told one day they were no longer needed, without any notice.

cptdodger

13-Oct-13, 12:23

That's market forces & the drive for ever increasing profit for you... Fairness doesn't come into it.

Again, I agree with you. At the time, that did'nt necessarily bother me. It was not a job I wanted to do for ever, for me it was a means to an end, basically it paid the bills. It's like when I apply for jobs here, and although it's frustrating, I can understand why a business would rather employ a 16 to 20 year old, than me, a 50 year old, because they save on the wage bill. It certainly does not help my situation, but I understand it.

secrets in symmetry

13-Oct-13, 14:11

I totally agree mi16, my partner did look into going self employed, but that's what stopped him. I was just trying to show secrets in symmetry the difference in wage structures, within one company (BT). Also, because they were basically contractors, they could just get told one day they were no longer needed, without any notice.Thanks for taking the time to wrote those posts. I learned a lot there. :cool:

RagnarRocks

13-Oct-13, 15:04

Again, I agree with you. At the time, that did'nt necessarily bother me. It was not a job I wanted to do for ever, for me it was a means to an end, basically it paid the bills. It's like when I apply for jobs here, and although it's frustrating, I can understand why a business would rather employ a 16 to 20 year old, than me, a 50 year old, because they save on the wage bill. It certainly does not help my situation, but I understand it.I know that feeling, the oh you're over qualified or the best one how will you manage to work with our 20 yr old manager who hasn't got qualifications.Most corporate entities with call centres just want subservient drones on the phones just enough personality to snag a sale but not bright enough to realise the dubious morality and legality of those sales. I've worked for a very well know insurance company and the dubious morality of their sales techniques forced me into a long battle with them I won some senior managers etc got the heave ho but nothing really changes just another bunch of sacrificial lambs take over from them

cptdodger

13-Oct-13, 18:21

Thanks for taking the time to wrote those posts. I learned a lot there. :cool:

No problem, and to be fair, I just skimmed the surface. I'm actually quite surprised the people in payroll's heads were not spinning with all the different pay structures !!

cptdodger

13-Oct-13, 18:45

I know that feeling, the oh you're over qualified or the best one how will you manage to work with our 20 yr old manager who hasn't got qualifications.Most corporate entities with call centres just want subservient drones on the phones just enough personality to snag a sale but not bright enough to realise the dubious morality and legality of those sales. I've worked for a very well know insurance company and the dubious morality of their sales techniques forced me into a long battle with them I won some senior managers etc got the heave ho but nothing really changes just another bunch of sacrificial lambs take over from them

Think yourself lucky you actually get replies !! For all the jobs I have applied for here, and there have been many, I could count on one hand how many replies I have had, and I do'nt actually get a reason as to why I was unsuccessful. Going back to when I worked for BT Business Broadband Complaints, I came across a lot of dodgy things going on as in "miss sales". One that sticks out was a guy had bought a building to start up a new business, he just wanted 20 telephone lines put in - that's all. For one reason or another he had not moved into the building for three months, when he did, he found a bill from us for thousands. When I investigated, I found the salesperson had put (this is the days before unlimited BB, or up to 8 meg BB and so on) engineer installed 2 meg BB (basically the most expensive package) on each and every line, and three months later, well you can imagine. The reason - commission, plain and simple, the sales person made a lot of money out of this unfortunate soul. After leaving there, (we lost complaints to India) I worked for a very short time on sales (inbound) dealing with lines, BB and BT Vision. I also got commission for any sales I got, I think I was the worst in that dept !! The straw that broke the camel's back for me (so to speak) was when we were told we had to push BT credit cards, they did'nt care to who, as in, we had to carry out credit checks for lines going in, best scenario - no deposit - worst scenario (at that time) £50 deposit, yet we had to push a credit card to people, regardless of their financial history - they honestly just did not care. I just could'nt do it. As I said it was a job at the end of the day, but there was certain things I would draw the line at.

secrets in symmetry

13-Oct-13, 22:22

One that sticks out was a guy had bought a building to start up a new business, he just wanted 20 telephone lines put in - that's all. For one reason or another he had not moved into the building for three months, when he did, he found a bill from us for thousands. When I investigated, I found the salesperson had put (this is the days before unlimited BB, or up to 8 meg BB and so on) engineer installed 2 meg BB (basically the most expensive package) on each and every line, and three months later, well you can imagine. The reason - commission, plain and simple, the sales person made a lot of money out of this unfortunate soul.Surely, the unfortunate soul didn't have to pay a bill for something he hadn't ordered.

cptdodger

13-Oct-13, 23:08

Surely, the unfortunate soul didn't have to pay a bill for something he hadn't ordered.

No, that's where I came in, I had the bill wiped for him, and if I remember correctly, as a good will gesture (BT do'nt do compensation where BB is concerned!!) I gave him six months line rental foc as well - because I could! Now that was an extreme case (money wise) but it did concern me how often that was happening.

I should just add, in case anybody thinks I was throwing money at customers! by the time the complaints got to us it could be anywhere between two to four months after the initial complaint. At that point we were getting between 50 - 80 complaints per day (I joke not!) which, if complex, could take weeks to resolve.

secrets in symmetry

14-Oct-13, 22:59

No, that's where I came in, I had the bill wiped for him, and if I remember correctly, as a good will gesture (BT do'nt do compensation where BB is concerned!!) I gave him six months line rental foc as well - because I could! Now that was an extreme case (money wise) but it did concern me how often that was happening.

I should just add, in case anybody thinks I was throwing money at customers! by the time the complaints got to us it could be anywhere between two to four months after the initial complaint. At that point we were getting between 50 - 80 complaints per day (I joke not!) which, if complex, could take weeks to resolve.I'm very happy to hear that you brought some humanity to BT's customer service. :cool:

Perhaps you could sort out British Gas next. Apart from Sean the Salesman, they don't seem to employ any human beings.

cptdodger

14-Oct-13, 23:34

I'm very happy to hear that you brought some humanity to BT's customer service. :cool:

Perhaps you could sort out British Gas next. Apart from Sean the Salesman, they don't seem to employ any human beings.

That's how I could do that job, because in a small way I could make a difference. As for working for another call centre, maybe not !! I will say though, what did teach me a valuable lesson is having had to deal with the Child Support Agency for over twenty years. It taught me, if I ever said to one of my complaints customers that I would phone them, I made sure I did, even if I did'nt have an update for them, I can't tell you how many times the CSA said they would contact me and did not bother over the years, and how frustrating that was. Another thing it taught me, was not to lose my temper with the person I was speaking to at any call centre, I happened to phone (especially the CSA !) because at the end of the day, it's not the individuals fault, it's the companies, they are just trying to earn a living like I was at BT, and believe you me I was at the receiving end of some irate calls, but I came to understand they were annoyed at BT (and trust me, I could not blame them) and not me personally!

ducati

14-Oct-13, 23:38

That's how I could do that job, because in a small way I could make a difference. As for working for another call centre, maybe not !! I will say though, what did teach me a valuable lesson is having had to deal with the Child Support Agency for over twenty years. It taught me, if I ever said to one of my complaints customers that I would phone them, I made sure I did, even if I did'nt have an update for them, I can't tell you how many times the CSA said they would contact me and did not bother over the years, and how frustrating that was. Another thing it taught me, was not to lose my temper with the person I was speaking to at any call centre, I happened to phone (especially the CSA !) because at the end of the day, it's not the individuals fault, it's the companies, they are just trying to earn a living like I was at BT, and believe you me I was at the receiving end of some irate calls, but I came to understand they were annoyed at BT (and trust me, I could not blame them) and not me personally!

If you cannot get behind your employer, but are happy to take their money, I wonder whose ethics should be in question really?

cptdodger

14-Oct-13, 23:46

If you cannot get behind your employer, but are happy to take their money, I wonder whose ethics should be in question really?

So, what you are saying then, I should have just ignored every single mistake BT ever made, and not given people back money they were entitled to, because you deem that to be not getting behind my employer ? My ethics are not in question, I was employed to do that job, which I did to the best of my ability.

ducati

14-Oct-13, 23:56

So, what you are saying then, I should have just ignored every single mistake BT ever made, and not given people back money they were entitled to, because you deem that to be not getting behind my employer ? My ethics are not in question, I was employed to do that job, which I did to the best of my ability.

Well, think back to the interview, when asked why would you like to work for BT? Did you say well I don't really care it is just a job to me or did you just lie?

cptdodger

15-Oct-13, 00:00

Well, think back to the interview, when asked why would you like to work for BT? Did you say well I don't really care it is just a job to me or did you just lie?

I was'nt asked that question actually, because I did'nt apply to work for them.

ducati

15-Oct-13, 00:01

I was'nt asked that question actually, because I did'nt apply to work for them.

OK.................:roll:

cptdodger

15-Oct-13, 00:21

OK.................:roll:

Sorry, it appears I have confused you, I was approached by the call centre manager who I had worked with previously in Tesco's, when I was a Security Manager and he was a Store Manager in England. His wife who I had also worked with in Tesco's when I was in Dundee, who had since moved back there, found out I had moved back to Dundee, and he asked if I was interested in a job at BT. I did fill in all the relevant forms and passed all the relevant test and so on before I was employed by them. I am not sixteen years old, I had had my career, done what I had set out to achieve, so yes, he was perfectly aware that that was "just a job" for me, a means to an end, however you wish to put it. I have never lied to anybody, as to why I wanted a job, and I resent that insinuation. I worked hard at any job they gave me, and honestly gave 100%. My resentment towards BT came a long time after I left, it's thanks to them I am stuck here. Let's hope that has cleared things up for you.

ducati

16-Oct-13, 09:27

Sorry, it appears I have confused you, I was approached by the call centre manager who I had worked with previously in Tesco's, when I was a Security Manager and he was a Store Manager in England. His wife who I had also worked with in Tesco's when I was in Dundee, who had since moved back there, found out I had moved back to Dundee, and he asked if I was interested in a job at BT. I did fill in all the relevant forms and passed all the relevant test and so on before I was employed by them. I am not sixteen years old, I had had my career, done what I had set out to achieve, so yes, he was perfectly aware that that was "just a job" for me, a means to an end, however you wish to put it. I have never lied to anybody, as to why I wanted a job, and I resent that insinuation. I worked hard at any job they gave me, and honestly gave 100%. My resentment towards BT came a long time after I left, it's thanks to them I am stuck here. Let's hope that has cleared things up for you.

Well, I know when I was recruiting, I would never have taken someone on if I believed they were just along for the ride. One of the most difficult parts of the interview process is seperating the genuinely committed from the also rans.
There is a lot of criticism of business in respect of employment but I believe we have a right to employ the best people for our needs and if they don't measure up........

cptdodger

16-Oct-13, 12:28

Well, I know when I was recruiting, I would never have taken someone on if I believed they were just along for the ride. One of the most difficult parts of the interview process is seperating the genuinely committed from the also rans.
There is a lot of criticism of business in respect of employment but I believe we have a right to employ the best people for our needs and if they don't measure up........

Well I did "measure up" and I was there for over four years. And I also recruited, when I was a Customer Service Manager, Security Manager, and a Store Manager, so I have a fair idea what an interview process entails, and I did employ the best people. Now, I was contacted yesterday by somebody who told me who you are, and all I will say on a public forum is, you have some nerve questioning my ethics and my commitment to any position I have held. However, you carry on taking personal swipes at somebody you know nothing about if it makes you feel better. This is the last thing I will say on the subject.

rob murray

16-Oct-13, 13:09

Well, I know when I was recruiting, I would never have taken someone on if I believed they were just along for the ride. One of the most difficult parts of the interview process is seperating the genuinely committed from the also rans.
There is a lot of criticism of business in respect of employment but I believe we have a right to employ the best people for our needs and if they don't measure up........

Yep but what do you mean by business : ie sme's, by definition have to have the "right" people ( close team etc so attitude plays a great part in the recruitment process along with skills ), large anonymous corporates / agencies, especially for call centre work, are very different and will take anyone who passes the entry process...which is usually more than an interview...process typically involves a skills test, then if successful a brief interview, reference checks etc, anyway asking someone why they wanted to work with a company is subjective, and responses are meaningless. With attrition typically running at 25%, call centres are under great pressure to meet service level targets or face financial penalties hence reason that skills are the key factor. To cut to the chase, there is a world of difference between the personality of an sme and that of a corporate entity.