and About Time Too

[mi16]

The long-term unemployed will have to undertake work placements in return for their benefits, under tougher rules unveiled by Chancellor George Osborne.This must be one of the best things to be proposed in a while, it will make the lazy get the hell away from the play station or Jeremy Kyle, get back into a work routine and do a little for their payments.Perhaps go some way towards installing a work ethic back into the jobless.

[Alrock]

The long-term unemployed will have to undertake work placements in return for their benefits, under tougher rules unveiled by Chancellor George Osborne.

If there's work out there for them to do then give them a job, don't use them as a form of cheap labour....


... it will make the lazy get the hell away from the play station or Jeremy Kyle....

Ah... we do love a stereotype, makes it so much easier to put any particular group down...

[RagnarRocks]

The idea is being touted by both parties in similar tones. If you are genuinely looking for work then it shouldn't really affect you but if you're long term unemployed then considering you've not had any success why shouldn't you be expected to do some work. It's very well saying its cheap labour but if these people secure jobs they can have better paid employment, if a drug addict it offers help that's a positive, it asks people to attend daily to receive a benefit and prove they are looking for work, which seems fair to me. But if you are one of those lazy indolent couldn't care sorts which are in a minority then you won't like it at all. Remember this is aimed at about 200k people so not all the unemployed just a hard core minority. Lazy dole scroungers aren't a myth they are a reality this isn't aimed at most people who will work just the few who think society owes them a living :0)I am a bit sick of this give them a job attitude since when has it been the governments job to give people jobs !

[Alrock]

....I am a bit sick of this give them a job attitude since when has it been the governments job to give people jobs !

Isn't that what they are proposing.... Give them a job but don't pay them for it, just give them their JSA which in most cases will work out as far less than minimum wage plus you'd miss out on in work benefits that many of the employed benefit from, like Working Tax Credits etc.

[RagnarRocks]

Isn't that what they are proposing.... Give them a job but don't pay them for it, just give them their JSA which in most cases will work out as far less than minimum wage plus you'd miss out on in work benefits that many of the employed benefit from, like Working Tax Credits etc.Half the idea is that they would rather get a real job rather than scrub graffiti or are you saying its ok to just be lazy and expect everyone else to pay ?

[golach]

Instead of sitting moaning, do as many Caithnessians have done before, including my own father.........move to where the work is. Too many are relying on hand outs from the government

[RagnarRocks]

Instead of sitting moaning, do as many Caithnessians have done before, including my own father.........move to where the work is. Too many are relying on hand outs from the governmentI've always been amazed by the Americans and how they will literally up sticks and move across the country to work. I've had jobs where I was based in London and lived in Poole long journeys and a pain in the you where but at the time the rewards seemed worth it :0)) I also know people who are happy to sit on their backsides all day and expect social services to run around after them as they sit and laugh about the latest incidence of bad back, depression or whatever flavour of the day illness is that keeps the benefits rolling in . One very well known local in my old town had kids and missus sitting at home nice car tvs and he claimed he had depression and joked how he mugged them off,but it didn't stop him dealing drugs and having a very relaxed lifestyle :0)

[RecQuery]

I preface this by saying I have never been unemployed in my life.

The problem with this scheme is that:


It will be exploited by dodgy companies and organisations to essentially provide them with slave labour. This will ultimately lead to people already in jobs losing them or a job not being created where previously one would have. It's been tried elsewhere and failed. Ref: http://www.scambridge.ie/ and http://www.scambridge.ie/aoife-one-day-he-asked-me-to-look-up-job-bridge-id-never-heard-of-it/
The benefits bill is about £6 billion, that's relatively minor in terms of government spending. In actuality there's a benefits underspend; according to the government more people should be claiming benefits than actually are. A good chunk of benefits goes to people who are already working or are on zero-hour contracts. It always struck me as odd that we go after the benefits stuff when at most all it will yield is an extra £6 billion. There are bigger fish out there that will yield a higher return for effort: VAT fraud, Tax evasion, etc.
For people saying the unemployed should just move to where the jobs are: Don't be so glib, it's not that simple. This isn't the US. The UK has it's own dynamics and idiosyncrasies - we're one of the most centralised countries in the world, etc. It's rather difficult to move especially when you live in a remote location and have to jump through several hoops to get accommodation etc arranged. Not to mention that I don't imagine the unemployed have a pool of cash laying around to help them with this. That being said if you prefer the US system then I encourage you to move there.

Incidentally: No-one should get something for nothing, claims man (Osborne) who got everything for nothing (http://newsthump.com/2013/09/30/no-one-should-get-something-for-nothing-claims-man-who-got-everything-for-nothing/).

[equusdriving]

The long-term unemployed will have to undertake work placements in return for their benefits, under tougher rules unveiled by Chancellor George Osborne.This must be one of the best things to be proposed in a while, it will make the lazy get the hell away from the play station or Jeremy Kyle, get back into a work routine and do a little for their payments.Perhaps go some way towards installing a work ethic back into the jobless.
yes this is the best and quickest way to cut unemployment levels and stop the "its not really worth me getting a job because I wont be that much better of " culture

[rich62_uk]

I think this is a good idea, not from the drum banging everyone should work for their money aspect but from the idea of getting those on long term benefits back into a mind set of working, and at the same time enable them to have much needed training that while I know is probably available now, is far more difficult to access.

The big but that comes with this there needs to be someone locally to make sure the people who really are not suitable for the scheme are supported with their needs taken into account ...... Its a good idea so long as it is done in a supportive way rather than a threatening way !

[equusdriving]

If there's work out there for them to do then give them a job, don't use them as a form of cheap labour....
I would think it would have to worked in a way where, they would have to work however many hours at (at-least) minimum wage that would equal their benefits. So not cheap labor, just honest work for honest pay and all the pride and self satisfaction that goes with it thrown in for free, just like the rest of society that have been following this practice for years, and supporting themselves and their families

[rob murray]

I preface this by saying I have never been unemployed in my life.

The problem with this scheme is that:

It will be exploited by dodgy companies and organisations to essentially provide them with slave labour. This will ultimately lead to people already in jobs losing them or a job not being created where previously one would have. It's been tried elsewhere and failed. Ref: http://www.scambridge.ie/ and http://www.scambridge.ie/aoife-one-day-he-asked-me-to-look-up-job-bridge-id-never-heard-of-it/
The benefits bill is about £6 billion, that's relatively minor in terms of government spending. In actuality there's a benefits underspend; according to the government more people should be claiming benefits than actually are. A good chunk of benefits goes to people who are already working or are on zero-hour contracts. It always struck me as odd that we go after the benefits stuff when at most all it will yield is an extra £6 billion. There are bigger fish out there that will yield a higher return for effort: VAT fraud, Tax evasion, etc.
For people saying the unemployed should just move to where the jobs are: Don't be so glib, it's not that simple. This isn't the US. The UK has it's own dynamics and idiosyncrasies - we're one of the most centralised countries in the world, etc. It's rather difficult to move especially when you live in a remote location and have to jump through several hoops to get accommodation etc arranged. Not to mention that I don't imagine the unemployed have a pool of cash laying around to help them with this. That being said if you prefer the US system then I encourage you to move there.
Incidentally: No-one should get something for nothing, claims man (Osborne) who got everything for nothing (http://newsthump.com/2013/09/30/no-one-should-get-something-for-nothing-claims-man-who-got-everything-for-nothing/).

Well put, in sheer practical terms, has anyone thought through the logisitics, there will be on JSA in Caithness, if every one unemployed had to attend every day, then is there enough space and staff in JSA to do the work. Also if you commute from outside Wick you wait for a bus, treck up to girnigoe street, wait to sign on, presumably be interviewed to see what jobs you have applied for, then wait for bus and commute home ( who pays the bus fares ? ) This penalises the genuine unemployed, as you would be spending considerable time travelling, signing on etc if you don't make your signing time, benefits are cut 100% for three months..so how can people make signing times ( daily ) if they"ve no money. How do they survive...do people want to see the embarrassment of food banks throughout the county ?? ( SOme one here certainly do as I feel they laugh at the misfortunes of the vast majority of poor people )

ALso compare this to community service orders, which are a complete joke, work activities related to this cannot impact upon the real economy ie displace paid workers by getting community service people doing work which ordinarily has to be paid for. Ditto for "working for your dole"...doing what exactly ??

In my view this is 100% based on further attacks on the unemployed,to reduce welfare spending as aimed at the hard right hand em and flog em brigade...not trying to help people back back to work as the Tories claim. My remedy would be hefty fines for any employer found employing unemployed people working on the fly for starters (and theres plenty of that going on ) ;et them employ and pay people. Training courses aimed at up skilling unemployed people, who are unemployed for a minimum of 18 months ( compulsory ) or training that starts at day 1 of unemployment if they so wish it, but linked to proper work and community work, with severe benefit reductions for those who don't attend or buy in. Trainees being offered /advertised to employers who are incentivised to recruit them ( Business Gateway / Highland Opportunities offer such schemes just now )

Face facts Caithness isnt exactly a booming area, work is scarce for the unskilled / semi skilled ultimately where are the jobs, they have to be come from somewhere, so joined up thinking is needed here, trainees linked to business needs, businesses incentivised to take them on, business growth / business relocation to Caithness containing similar incentive packages..... not gestapo boot boy tactics.

This hatred is driving me into the Yes corner....and politically is aimed at regaining lost tory voters / lost to UKIP...so see behind the spinning and read the real politic going on.

[squidge]

Workfare doesnt work. The government's own research showed this. This is the concusion to DWP's own report into Workfare "There is little evidence that workfare increases the likelihood of finding work. It can even reduce employment chances by limiting the time available for job search and by failing to provide the skills and experience valued by employers."

The Pilot schemes the government have run show no difference in the number leaving JSA. IT doesnt create jobs, it undermines pay and conditions for people who are working for employers participating in Workfare schemes. The only way to reduce the number of long term unemployed is to create growth and jobs and subsidising wages for long term unemployed people to take real paid jobs has been shown to be far more effective. Rob is right this is about demonising and punishing people for their misfortune so that people actually cheer when others are treating in a demeaning and cruel manner.

And if George Osborne is going to ensure that people with problems get help for their addictions, mental health problems How is he going to do this? How - when waiting for a counsellor can take six months or more? When addiction support is none existent in many areas I wonder how he will do this - oh wait!!! he will offer contracts to more private organisations who will line the pockets of their shareholders and chief execs like A4e and ATOS by preying on the misery of the vulnerable and who will spectacularly fail to make a difference to the numbers of people moving into work. All they will do is make life hard for those already struggling. Oh and of course it will make those of us who congratulate ourselves on not being scroungers, never having had to claim anything and being able to move all over the country feel yet more superior.

Lets see - the vast majority of people claiming JSA long term would rather be working. Thats a fact I have mentioned before. People need the right help and the right support and given that they will move into work. However it is expensive although not as expensive as A4e or ATOS. It might mean that people are paid benefit to do quality training - something that has been missing for years and years and years. How good are Government Training Programmes anyway? Anyone remember any of these with fondness for the quality of their training? TOPS, ATS, JTS, New JTS? The only one that has actually been effective in any way is the Modern Apprentice Programme and Labour complain bitterly every time that the Scottish Government put more money into it.

This work for your benefits is a big con. It will make no difference and it will just provide more money for the private companies who specialise in doing nothing with unemployed people.

[squidge]

Here is an analysis of Jobs advertised on the government's universal jobmatch pages for Wick.

37 Catalogue distribution Jobs - Self employed
3 Mystery Shopper Jobs - Self employed
2 jobs which involved selling advertising space - self employed.

These "vacancies" are multiple adverts for the same job over a period of a it appears. No set hours, no set wages all Self employed.

I part time telephonist job - 15.5 hours a week - not enough to take someone off benefits
2 jobs for waiting staff - one at Whaligoe - needs own transport
1 Railway worker for winter work - ( should have PTS card)

There were then six jobs which required some experience - including

Team Leader at a supermarket
Deputy Manager - retail ( this job appeared to be advertised three times)
Chef
Chef de Partie

Then there were 12 jobs for people with specific qualifications or high levels of skills

These included a GP, Teacher, Joiner, LGV Driver, Stone Mason and a couple of jobs which needed Steel working qualifications and Planning qualifications.

There were also 9 vacancies for "personal Trainer Training" again these seemed to be the same opportunities advertised three times for three very similar companies. There was no guarantee of a job.

I then looked at the jobs on Jobs-North which is the jobs in the paper

There were two pages

5 Highly qualified or skilled jobs at dounreay - a couple of engineers, a couple of duty managers and a comissioning engineer

1 labourer Self Employed
1 excavator Driver
1 Shovel Driver
1 Plant Fitter
3 jobs with Remax - i admin 2 sales - no indication of part or full time hours
27 sales and marketing jobs nationwide which realistically are not based in Wick!

Oh and bizarrely a Transport Sales worker in Wick near Bristol!!!!

Where does someone limited to Caithness find a job? Why on earth would you bring people into the Jobcentre every day to apply for endless Catalogue distributor jobs? Is it any wonder that people are unemployed. Are we really sanctioning people for not applying for 37 self employed catalogue distributor jobs? God I hope not.

We need a properly functioning public Employment Agency which advertises proper jobs - if it means that employers have to notify vacancies then so be it. Give properly trained staff the jobs and the people signing on and the money and resources to address their problems. Properly funded fraud personnel and sanctions applied with fairness and common sense and you will crack it. Walk down the workfare route and you will simply fail - again and again and again.

[mi16]

It the mountain wont come to Mohamed then Mohamed must go to the mountain.

[squidge]

Does this mean move house.

Can you explain to me how someone who is on benefits can afford to move to a) Inverness b) Edinburgh c)Manchester or d) London?

Can you explain to me how someone who is a carer and on benefits can afford to move to the aforementioned places?

Can you explain to me how a single parent with two children at school can afford to move to the aforementioned places?

Can you explain to me how much it costs to move house both in terms of financial and emotional costs when you are in the positions I mentioned above?

[equusdriving]

It the mountain wont come to Mohamed then Mohamed must go to the mountain.

and the trouble is not only in a lot of cases does Mohamed not only want the mountain to come to him he wants it to bring a big wedge of money for his "necessary" luxuries like plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes for his many state funded offspring etc etc.
and in answer to the mamby pamby do gooders This has nothing to do with the sick, mentally ill etc, but the people who are signing on declaring that they are actively seeking work!

[squidge]

and in answer to the mamby pamby do gooders This has nothing to do with the sick, mentally ill etc, but the people who are signing on declaring that they are actively seeking work!

The post above applies to many people who are getting JSA. Remember that people are found fit for work DESPITE illnesses and disabilities so Equus if you too think that people claiming JSA are able to up sticks and move perhaps you could answer the questions above.....

[equusdriving]

Does this mean move house. Can you explain to me how someone who is on benefits can afford to move to a) Inverness b) Edinburgh c)Manchester or d) London?
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/technical-guidance/sb16-a-guide-to-the-social/budgeting-loans/

Can you explain to me how someone who is a carer and on benefits can afford to move to the aforementioned places?The articles I have reads all state "long term unemployed" how does that affect carers?


Can you explain to me how a single parent with two children at school can afford to move to the aforementioned places? who has said that a single parent with 2 kids will have to do anything that doesn't fit around them?


Can you explain to me how much it costs to move house both in terms of financial and emotional costs when you are in the positions I mentioned above?
and with this superb new scheme no one will have to face those financial and emotional costs, just do the same as all the people who pay taxes to keep them do!

[equusdriving]

The post above applies to many people who are getting JSA. Remember that people are found fit for work DESPITE illnesses and disabilities so Equus if you too think that people claiming JSA are able to up sticks and move perhaps you could answer the questions above.....
so are you saying at the moment, they are fraudulently signing saying they are actively seeking work,when they have no such intention , because if you are give me some names, I will gladly report them!

[equusdriving]

The post above applies to many people who are getting JSA. Remember that people are found fit for work DESPITE illnesses and disabilities so Equus if you too think that people claiming JSA are able to up sticks and move perhaps you could answer the questions above.....wow that is spooky,I only just mentioned mamby pamby do-gooders and then as if by magic.................:lol:In his keynote speech at the conference, the Chancellor will say: “For the first time, all long-term unemployed people who are capable of work will be required to do something for their benefits to help them find work

[squidge]

Oh dear

Let me explain this to you

If you have been on JSA and you have attended a medical and been assessed as fit to work - not entitled to ESA then you have to claim JSA because despite what you might think - you have been assessed as fit to work. The Chancellors statement says "capable of work" because if you are claiming JSA then you are by definition capable of doing so. If you have cancer, or multiple sclerosis or depression and are claiming JSA because there is no option to do otherwise after ATOS find you fit for work then you will be classed as capable. If you try to explain that you are not really fit then you will either have to claim ESA ( which they have told you, you cant get and you certainly wont get if you apply with the exact condition you had when you were declared fit for work) or your benefit will sanctioned for not be capable and you will not be able to claim JSA either. If you are caring for children aged 5 or over then you will be expected to participate in this scheme.

So can you explain to me how people on benefits can afford to move to a variety of places?

[mi16]

Oh dear

Let me explain this to you

If you have been on JSA and you have attended a medical and been assessed as fit to work - not entitled to ESA then you have to claim JSA because despite what you might think - you have been assessed as fit to work. The Chancellors statement says "capable of work" because if you are claiming JSA then you are by definition capable of doing so. If you have cancer, or multiple sclerosis or depression and are claiming JSA because there is no option to do otherwise after ATOS find you fit for work then you will be classed as capable. If you try to explain that you are not really fit then you will either have to claim ESA ( which they have told you, you cant get and you certainly wont get if you apply with the exact condition you had when you were declared fit for work) or your benefit will sanctioned for not be capable and you will not be able to claim JSA either. If you are caring for children aged 5 or over then you will be expected to participate in this scheme.

So can you explain to me how people on benefits can afford to move to a variety of places?

As mentioned earlier the DWP have loans available which could be used to help with relocation costs.
If relocation is not possible and you are deemed fit for work then you will just have to do the tasks allocated to you in order to continue to recieve the payments, on the plus side this may bring you new skills and experience which can be exploited in your CV and help you to find paid work.
Either way you are no worse off and lets not forget that it is for the long term unemployed, if you have been on JSA for an extended period and cannot "find" work then something needs to change in order to help you find work of some sort.

[changilass]

Our move to Aberdeen happened because hubby was made redundant from Dounreay. He signed on, but before getting any money managed to get part time work in Tesco. This actually cost us more money than he was earning, but hubby needed to work for his peace of mind. This obviously couldn't go on and we had to take the decision to leave Caithness.

Hubby managed to get a job in Aberdeen and following a 6 week training period he moved to Aberdeen, he initially stayed in a caravan and then in the YMCA before we managed to find accommodation that we could afford (needless to say it wasn't exactly a very nice area or property).

We stayed in Caithness untill he was taken on permanently at which point we moved down to join him.

I am not saying it was easy, it was bliddy hard. Hubby away on his own and me stuck in Caithness basically a single parent, but it was worth the sacrifices we had to make.

I also know a single mum who had to move to Inverness from Caithness, again following being made redundant.

If you want to work there is work out there, it just involves a lot of hard work and sacrifice and bloody mindedness.

[rob murray]

and the trouble is not only in a lot of cases does Mohamed not only want the mountain to come to him he wants it to bring a big wedge of money for his "necessary" luxuries like plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes for his many state funded offspring etc etc.
and in answer to the mamby pamby do gooders This has nothing to do with the sick, mentally ill etc, but the people who are signing on declaring that they are actively seeking work!

Yep totally agree....people on benefits buying plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes have second incomes...working on the fly or are involved in other illegal activities. Wise up stop making stupid generic statements, and Im no gooder, its this stupid ill informed bile that getws me. Check out benefit rates ...then show me how the hell people cam buy plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes ....all on tick never to be paid back !!! Benefits doesnt stretch that far.

[rob murray]

As mentioned earlier the DWP have loans available which could be used to help with relocation costs.
If relocation is not possible and you are deemed fit for work then you will just have to do the tasks allocated to you in order to continue to recieve the payments, on the plus side this may bring you new skills and experience which can be exploited in your CV and help you to find paid work.
Either way you are no worse off and lets not forget that it is for the long term unemployed, if you have been on JSA for an extended period and cannot "find" work then something needs to change in order to help you find work of some sort.

Something needs to change that I will agree with but whats being suggested is pure nonsense !!

[rob murray]

Oh dear

Let me explain this to you

If you have been on JSA and you have attended a medical and been assessed as fit to work - not entitled to ESA then you have to claim JSA because despite what you might think - you have been assessed as fit to work. The Chancellors statement says "capable of work" because if you are claiming JSA then you are by definition capable of doing so. If you have cancer, or multiple sclerosis or depression and are claiming JSA because there is no option to do otherwise after ATOS find you fit for work then you will be classed as capable. If you try to explain that you are not really fit then you will either have to claim ESA ( which they have told you, you cant get and you certainly wont get if you apply with the exact condition you had when you were declared fit for work) or your benefit will sanctioned for not be capable and you will not be able to claim JSA either. If you are caring for children aged 5 or over then you will be expected to participate in this scheme.

So can you explain to me how people on benefits can afford to move to a variety of places?

See my previous posts on the logistics of daily signing on...your right, people on benefits cannot afford to move to a variety of places

[squidge]

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/technical-guidance/sb16-a-guide-to-the-social/budgeting-loans/ Oh right - the maximum you can have as a budgeting loan for a family is £812 You cant owe the social fund more than £1500 in total but that is not the total budgeting loan you can get - that is as I said £812.As a single person it is £348. Rent in advance is covered but a deposit isnt - you usually have to pay both. Now when I moved to Inverness in 2004 it cost me £1500. How do you find the shortfall if you are on benefits?


The articles I have reads all state "long term unemployed" how does that affect carers?
People with caring responsibilities also claim JSA - how do they move areas if they have caring responsibilities?


who has said that a single parent with 2 kids will have to do anything that doesn't fit around them?Anyone who's youngest child is over five must claim JSA and therefore will have to participate in the workfare scheme or lose benefits. Again how do they afford to move house if they are a single parent?


and with this superb new scheme no one will have to face those financial and emotional costs, just do the same as all the people who pay taxes to keep them do! And here we are right back again - there are not the jobs so how is the workfare going to move people into work? The mandatory work programmes have been shown by the DWP themselves not to work so how are they going to move people into work? If you want to PUNISH people for being unemployed then say so dont dress it up and pretend its support when it isnt.



Either way you are no worse off and lets not forget that it is for the long term unemployed, if you have been on JSA for an extended period and cannot "find" work then something needs to change in order to help you find work of some sort.

Absolutely it does. There needs to be proper support and quality training, there needs to be jobs and employers who will actually consider the long term unemployed - see if I had a pound for every employer that said "dont send me anyone who has been on the dole for months -Im not interested" I would be a rich woman. There needs to be proper fraud prevention and wages subsidies and there needs to be investment in young people to prevent them becoming long term unemployed in the first place. There needs to be a change to help people see they have something to offer instead of berating them for being lazy idle and scroungers and then we might start to actually make a difference to the unemployment figures.

[rob murray]

Oh right - the maximum you can have as a budgeting loan for a family is £812 You cant owe the social fund more than £1500 in total but that is not the total budgeting loan you can get - that is as I said £812.As a single person it is £348. Rent in advance is covered but a deposit isnt - you usually have to pay both. Now when I moved to Inverness in 2004 it cost me £1500. How do you find the shortfall if you are on benefits?


People with caring responsibilities also claim JSA - how do they move areas if they have caring responsibilities?

Anyone who's youngest child is over five must claim JSA and therefore will have to participate in the workfare scheme or lose benefits. Again how do they afford to move house if they are a single parent?

And here we are right back again - there are not the jobs so how is the workfare going to move people into work? The mandatory work programmes have been shown by the DWP themselves not to work so how are they going to move people into work? If you want to PUNISH people for being unemployed then say so dont dress it up and pretend its support when it isnt.

It is punishment, a very broad brush stroke, why not attack the employers taking on people working on the fly, they are worse then any so called scrounger : people over 2 years un employed and genuinely fit for work mandatory training linked to jobs...thats fair...but this is Vaithness so what damn jobs...there are people whether we like it or not who don't or never want to work and are free loading that must stop but in a proper manner, opportunities must be given and very hard sanctions have to apply if the opportunity is abused.

[squidge]

Most of the jobs there are in Caithness are never advertised which is ok if you are "in the know" or your face fits or your name fits or your mother brother father sister or girlfriends cousins husband works there and can put in a good word for you.

That is the perogative of employers to take on who they want in the way they want but it penalises those who for whatever reason are trying to overcome difficulties and get work and it plays into the hands of the prejudices we see so clearly articulated above. "Im not taking him he is a lazy scrounger" This is why wages subsidies work better than mandatory workfare. IT actually financially benefits an employer to take on someone who has been long term unemployed and they are more likely to take a risk, give someone a chance if they have some sort of financial protection at least in the short term.

[equusdriving]

Oh right - the maximum you can have as a budgeting loan for a family is £812 You cant owe the social fund more than £1500 in total but that is not the total budgeting loan you can get - that is as I said £812.As a single person it is £348. Rent in advance is covered but a deposit isnt - you usually have to pay both. Now when I moved to Inverness in 2004 it cost me £1500. How do you find the shortfall if you are on benefits? read Changilass's post, you will be surprised what people can do ,if they want to



People with caring responsibilities also claim JSA - how do they move areas if they have caring responsibilities?as I said they wont have to now with this superb scheme


Anyone who's youngest child is over five must claim JSA and therefore will have to participate in the workfare scheme or lose benefits. Again how do they afford to move house if they are a single parent?
as I said they wont have to now with this superb scheme


If you want to PUNISH people for being unemployed then say so dont dress it up and pretend its support when it isnt. I don't want to punish them, I just want them to put a little bit back in the pot, like everyone else does

[equusdriving]

Yep totally agree....people on benefits buying plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes have second incomes...working on the fly or are involved in other illegal activities. well at least they wont have time to now.:)
Wise up stop making stupid generic statements, likewise
and Im no gooder, its this stupid ill informed bile that getws me. its bad spelling that gets me :lol:
Check out benefit rates ...then show me how the hell people cam buy plasma tv, blackberry,sky tv, fags, booze, designer clothes ....all on tick never to be paid back !!! Benefits doesnt stretch that far. either way ,they must have the spare cash to pay back the tick:(

[mi16]

I don't want to punish them, I just want them to put a little bit back in the pot, like everyone else does

Exactly, no one want to see anyone punished but in the same vein what makes folk think they are entitled to take money from the state for prolonged periods for absolutely nothing in return?

[squidge]

? read Changilass's post, you will be surprised what people can do ,if they want to


Lol I dont need to read changilass's post Equus I know exactly what people can do - I moved from Caithness to Inverness after my marriage ended with no job, three kids, no family here because it was the right thing to do for me and I was ABLE to make those sacrifices. I took the first job I could and I scrimped and scraped and worked really hard to make a life for my children and I. Dont preach to me about what people can do. That was after I had moved my family 500 miles north to make a new life in Caithness. The thing is I know EXACTLY why I was able to do that and exactly how I was able to afford it. Thats why I know how hard it was and why I understand why not everyone is able to do that. Why not everyone has the financial ability to do it and why not everyone can cope with the emotional hardship. Changi had the support and love of her husband and the I know she has the personal strength to cope with the sacrifices and make a success of things. She is an impressive and remarkable lady in many ways.


I had the need to get away from a difficult situation and the personal strength to cope with the sacrifices and I had the money to move. I know EXACTLY how hard it is - and thats why I know that not everyone is able to overcome the difficulties or afford the money it costs.

Not everybody is the same.


....what makes folk think they are entitled to take money from the state for prolonged periods for absolutely nothing in return?

most of them dont mi16. And with the right help, the right support, a focus on improvement and a working with people to overcome barriers to employment many of them will get work. Many of them will also stay in work. It often takes imagination and persistence and compassion to move those people who are unemployed long term into work and it also needs jobs. This programme provides none of these things...none. The DWP have evidence which they produced from pilot schemes which shows that this type of programme does not improve the job prospects for the people taking part. What on earth is the point of it unless it is simply to stigmatise the unemployed. What a waste of money when they could be doing something far more imaginative which works.

[equusdriving]

I know that not everyone is able to overcome the difficulties or afford the money it costs.
Not everybody is the same. well its a good job,especially for those people who you mention, that they will now be able to do their bit, and take pride in the fact, without having to move away:D


What on earth is the point of it unless it is simply to stigmatise the unemployed. Surely working and doing your bit for what you get, is far less likely to be stigmatized about than not doing nothing and being kept by the taxpayer:confused or is because they wont still be able to brag to their mates about how much they get for doing nothing[evil]

[weezer 316]

Does this mean move house.

Can you explain to me how someone who is on benefits can afford to move to a) Inverness b) Edinburgh c)Manchester or d) London?

Can you explain to me how someone who is a carer and on benefits can afford to move to the aforementioned places?

Can you explain to me how a single parent with two children at school can afford to move to the aforementioned places?

Can you explain to me how much it costs to move house both in terms of financial and emotional costs when you are in the positions I mentioned above?

I cant explain any of that, what I can say though is we moved house 5 times before I was 16, 3 times around Glasgow, then up to Halkirk and then to Thurso. My mum never worked a day in her life and was an alcoholic. So its clearly do-able. Infact even more so now than 20 years ago.

[Alrock]

I would think it would have to worked in a way where, they would have to work however many hours at (at-least) minimum wage that would equal their benefits. So not cheap labor, just honest work for honest pay and all the pride and self satisfaction that goes with it thrown in for free, just like the rest of society that have been following this practice for years, and supporting themselves and their families

So that would be about 10 hours per week, not the 30 that they are talking about...


? read Changilass's post, you will be surprised what people can do ,if they want to

Fine in theory, but if everybody did that then you have the problem that there is still only a finite number of jobs out there, there will still be the same number of unemployed, just shuffled around the country a bit.

[equusdriving]

So that would be about 10 hours per week, not the 30 that they are talking about... yes "I would think" so




Fine in theory, but if everybody did that then you have the problem that there is still only a finite number of jobs out there, there will still be the same number of unemployed, just shuffled around the country a bit. yes but not anymore, with the new scheme no one will have to be shuffled around if they didn't want to

and dont forget the other options available " attend the Jobcentre and search for work every day, or be placed in the new Mandatory Intensive Regime"

[mi16]

yes "I would think" so yes but not anymore, with the new scheme no one will have to be shuffled around if they didn't want toand dont forget the other options available " attend the Jobcentre and search for work every day, or be placed in the new Mandatory Intensive Regime"Any unemployed person who is looking for work should be spending a large majority of their deal searching for work

[squidge]

I cant explain any of that, what I can say though is we moved house 5 times before I was 16, 3 times around Glasgow, then up to Halkirk and then to Thurso. My mum never worked a day in her life and was an alcoholic. So its clearly do-able. Infact even more so now than 20 years ago.

It absolutely is doable - did you not hear me say that I did it???? It is LESS doable now though Rents are high - social housing is harder to get, private rentals require deposits and rent in advance and private rents are soaring. The cheapest two bedroomed flat to let in Inverness on Zoopla just now is £495 per month so thats £990 before you even pack your clothes. Twenty years ago social fund payments were often grants and not loans. Social housing was easier to get - my parents in law applied for a house in Invergordon and within five weeks were offered one and moved up from Glasgow.

The thing is that not everyone is the same. Not everyone CAN move like that - if they can do then they probably all ready have done or will do and therefore will not end up long term unemployed unless they have particular issues like addiction or mental health issues. Telling people that they should move cos "look I did it" shows a complete lack of the ability to understand the differences between people.

[equusdriving]

unless they have particular issues like addiction or mental health issues. "And for those with underlying problems, like drug addiction and illiteracy, there will be an intensive regime of help."

[squidge]

"And for those with underlying problems, like drug addiction and illiteracy, there will be an intensive regime of help."

Ahh yes - the "intensive regime of help"

How long does it take to get counselling just now? six months was what someone I know was told. what about support from Mental health services or psychological support? What about Addiction services? How many of those exist in Caithness and in the Highlands? NO doubt more private companies making money off the misery of others. Just another way to line the pockets of the shareholders and chief executives of private companies who will do half a job, cause more misery and resolve nothing.

Mandatory Work programmes do not help people find jobs. The only way to reduce unemployment is to create growth and jobs. Having unemployed people (dressed in pink overalls possibly?) doing menial work in full sight of the rest of society does not help people to find work. Targetted support, wages subsidies and quality training does.

[RecQuery]

I think most people missed or just ignored the point I made earlier that a large chunk of the benefits bill is PAID OUT TO PEOPLE ALREADY IN WORK and instead choose to recite their usual mantras on issues like this.

[rob murray]

well at least they wont have time to now.:) likewise its bad spelling that gets me :lol: either way ,they must have the spare cash to pay back the tick:(

1 Spelling : posted in a hurry
2 Spare cash : in yer dreams

[rob murray]

I think most people missed or just ignored the point I made earlier that a large chunk of the benefits bill is PAID OUT TO PEOPLE ALREADY IN WORK and instead choose to recite their usual mantras on issues like this.

Yes, largely subsidising low wages, so why should the tax payer do this ??

[equusdriving]

1 Spelling : posted in a hurry
I know, I was only joking :lol:

[RecQuery]

Iain Duncan Smith's - Realistic Unemployment Simulator (http://toys.usvsth3m.com/iain-duncan-smiths-realistic-unemployment-simulator/)

The only thing I think it's missing is a big red suicide button that ends the game and flashes up "You finally did something useful!".

I sometimes wonder why the Conservatives don't just offer voluntary euthanasia. It's becoming increasingly clear that it's all peoples own fault and they should feel guilty for their own existence.

There are tons of jobs available because George Osborne said so, and they should all just look harder.

[neilsermk1]

Our move to Aberdeen happened because hubby was made redundant from Dounreay. He signed on, but before getting any money managed to get part time work in Tesco. This actually cost us more money than he was earning, but hubby needed to work for his peace of mind. This obviously couldn't go on and we had to take the decision to leave Caithness.

Hubby managed to get a job in Aberdeen and following a 6 week training period he moved to Aberdeen, he initially stayed in a caravan and then in the YMCA before we managed to find accommodation that we could afford (needless to say it wasn't exactly a very nice area or property).

We stayed in Caithness untill he was taken on permanently at which point we moved down to join him.

I am not saying it was easy, it was bliddy hard. Hubby away on his own and me stuck in Caithness basically a single parent, but it was worth the sacrifices we had to make.

I also know a single mum who had to move to Inverness from Caithness, again following being made redundant.

If you want to work there is work out there, it just involves a lot of hard work and sacrifice and bloody mindedness.
Well done Chaniglass top marks for you and yours, and if everyone had the same attitude as you and your hubby then there would not be any issue.
I hope your new life in Aberdeen works out well for you and your family

[scorrie]

I worked on a Government scheme in 1989 whilst unemployed. I did eight months in a job placement, forty hours a week and had to work every Saturday, all for the princely sum of £10 per week, or 25p an hour. Nobody can tell me I wasn't exploited but if it helps the "Hang the scroungers" brigade sleep easier in their beds at night then my efforts were not in vain.

If anyone is wondering how the amount is so low, I wasn't claiming any benefits and only got paid the generous £10 top up. £0 + £10 = £10 (Thank you Mrs Thatcher, you're so kind)

[mi16]

I worked on a Government scheme in 1989 whilst unemployed. I did eight months in a job placement, forty hours a week and had to work every Saturday, all for the princely sum of £10 per week, or 25p an hour. Nobody can tell me I wasn't exploited but if it helps the "Hang the scroungers" brigade sleep easier in their beds at night then my efforts were not in vain.

If anyone is wondering how the amount is so low, I wasn't claiming any benefits and only got paid the generous £10 top up. £0 + £10 = £10 (Thank you Mrs Thatcher, you're so kind)

Did you have to take part in this scheme, or was it to gain work experience.
I got 74p per hour in my first year of employment in 1993, got a 13p pay rise for the second year though so it wasnt all bad.

[Even Chance]

Did you have to take part in this scheme, or was it to gain work experience.
I got 74p per hour in my first year of employment in 1993, got a 13p pay rise for the second year though so it wasnt all bad.

I mind the days well. You lot got £2.50 more per week for your first year than we did the year before you. We got a lovely £25 a week, when all my mates were making £80-£100 a week. Sometimes you have to make do as best as you can for the greater-good in the long run.

[mi16]

I mind the days well. You lot got £2.50 more per week for your first year than we did the year before you. We got a lovely £25 a week, when all my mates were making £80-£100 a week. Sometimes you have to make do as best as you can for the greater-good in the long run.

Aah we were a better class of employee!!

[Big Gaz]

I was on the pilot Y.O.P. scheme in 1981 and for a 40 hour week i got £27.50. I think my bus fares cost me £4 a week but i got an extra couple of quid to "cover" the outlay. It beat being on the dole for £17.50 a week and I learned a lot! photography, video recording and editing and we also made a presentation for Livingston Development Corp to entice people to live there when Livingston began to expand from the village into the beginnings of what it is now. It gave me experience that i could have used to gain a job in the future but there just wasn't anything around at that time that required the skills. Main thing though was i made a load of friends and enjoyed myself whilst all the ones that left school with me just sat on their arse and soaked up dole money.

[Alrock]

... (http://toys.usvsth3m.com/iain-duncan-smiths-realistic-unemployment-simulator/)I sometimes wonder why the Conservatives don't just offer voluntary euthanasia....

Or compulsory sterilization of those who can't afford to give their children a large inheritance...

[Alice in Blunderland]

. It beat being on the dole for £17.50 a week and I learned a lot! photography, video recording and editing and we also made a presentation for Livingston Development Corp to entice people to live there when Livingston began to expand from the village into the beginnings of what it is now. My dad must have watched that video as when we were young he uprooted our family left Wick and went to work for Livingston Development Council.He went where the work was.We are now back but it was many years later.

[Rheghead]

I don't agree with this policy at all for the longterm but it might serve to give the serial scroungers a nice kick-up-the-bum. Perhaps an alternating policy of working for benefits will be a better catch all strategy to get more into work.

[equusdriving]

Or compulsory sterilization of those who can't afford to give their children a large inheritance...
or even better,compulsory sterilization of those who can't afford to keep themselves let alone a bunch of kids!

[joxville]

Is this what it's come too, that in the 21st century those who are going through tough times are being kicked when they are down? We shouldn't have food banks and soup kitchens, or a glut of charity shops in every town, but we do. As usual, it's the elite few and corporate greed that dictates policy in this country, not the needs of the people. Regardless of your political leanings, it's the rich who run this country and there's no way they are going to give up some of their wealth to help the less well off. They want to keep people down, don't believe the bollocks being spouted about a fairer society or opportunities for all, whatever background they come from. For every person from humble beginnings that makes it to the top, you can be sure there's 10 privileged people who got there because of wealth or knowing the right people.

David Cameron said today that the Tories are a party of low taxes, that help businesses, so where are all the jobs then? Why is there ghost towns up and down the country with so many unemployed? Capitalism isn't working, the last few years have shown that the rich have stayed rich and the poor got poorer by paying the price for the greed of those at the top. It's been proven that the welfare state doesn't lose as much money as is lost on tax avoidance, yet damn all is being done to close those loopholes. And why? Because when the pigs finally get away from the trough they want to walk in to jobs as directors or consultants with the big businesses they helped.

It's time the elite stopped being the rule makers, rules made to suit the few, not the many. I'm sick of those that can't see beyond the end of their nose, that there are other people out there who are genuinely suffering through no fault of their own. I don't have the answers but this country needs a vast overhaul, and the sooner the better.

[squidge]

I'm sick of those that can't see beyond the end of their nose, that there are other people out there who are genuinely suffering through no fault of their own. I don't have the answers but this country needs a vast overhaul, and the sooner the better.

I agree absolutely. You know what - reading the comments about sterilisation also make me shake my head. I would really like to think that they are "joking" and I could laugh it off with a "ho ho ho that poster is such a CARD" but I have an uneasy feeling that they actually MEAN it.


Workfare does not work. It does not move people into employment. Full Stop. It just demotivates and prevents people carrying out meaningful jobsearch. If there are community jobs like graffiti removal that need doing then pay them a real wage to do it. Community Programme did that in the 80s for a while and was very popular, certainly in the north of England - I dont know how it was received up here. 6 months on - six months on the broo then back on the programme if you didnt manage to get a job. In the 80s there were three million unemployed and few jobs in the industrial north west but people did get work and if you didnt you could get back on - we had people queuing to start these programmes. Meaningful often community based work, caring, development work, labouring, all sorts of stuff, mostly run by charities and the council for the benefit of communities not shareholders. Real references and access to in work benefits. It wasnt perfect and I would change many aspects of it but it was not slave labour either.

Open your eyes folks, go see what it means to be long term unemployed, go see foodbanks and listen to the stories of people needing help, go speak to carers and see how hard their lives are and how they have to fight for every mortal thing often at a time when they are worried and struggling with a difficult situation anyway. Most of all go talk to those who have been found fit for work despite having cancer, being seriously unwell and with chronic and painful disabilities and illnesses.I dont mean in the pub, or down the bookies or in Tesco. You wont get the truth there you will get the public face. Go to the agencies dealing with people in these situations and then come back and tell me that they are undeserving of support and help and only need shaming into work.

Then think about how this government treats these people and how the papers vilify them and how the general population laps it up and be ashamed of how we treat people when they are at their lowest.

[joxville]

Today, I learned that Tory MP Paul Maynard wants to stop people getting food parcels because they could become too reliant on it. Those pigs are so out of touch, with their draconian policies aimed at destroying the poor. It wasn't the poor who bankrupted country, but they are the ones paying the price for it. I really do despair of what society has become, that the elite are managing to divide us, picking on the weakest and defenceless, all the while averting our attention from their own thefts from the public purse. And that is what it is, blatant theft. They introduce all the perks and payments to themselves in the belief that they are entitled to them, because they are in public office. Whatever happened to doing your civic duty for little reward.

You may have seen the picture of Guy Fawkes doing the rounds on social media, with the tag line that he was the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions. Tragically, it's true. There's very few MP's who are in office to represent the people, they are there for themselves and their cronies, for what they can get out of the job, not what they can give to the country. A 1p tax rise wouldn't make much difference to me, but it makes a whole world of difference to the poor. I'd gladly take a rise if it means people aren't having to make the choice between heating their home or starving. And so this latest attack on the jobless is yet one more way for them to divide society. The haves and the have nots.

It's easy to suggest that people should move to another area for work, but there really isn't enough jobs out there. I live in the affluent South East, but even here there isn't the work available anymore. The local paper used to have about 20 to 30 pages of jobs in it, not anymore; last time I bought it there was 2 pages! That is how much the recession has hit. So many business have gone to the wall that there are no jobs available to those who are told to move to another area.

I was on the dole back in the 80's and was fortunate to be able to move to where there was work, because I was single. I can't imagine how it must be to have a family and be out of work, to be slowly stripped of your dignity by those born in to wealth, having to go to a food bank, a place that this Government should be ashamed even exists. It's going to take a revolution for the elite to learn the error of their ways, otherwise they'll keep getting voted in to rob the poor.

[equusdriving]

You know what - reading the comments about sterilisation also make me shake my head. I would really like to think that they are "joking" and I could laugh it off with a "ho ho ho that poster is such a CARD" but I have an uneasy feeling that they actually MEAN it.
so are you really saying, as someone who champions the cases of the poor,needy, sick,unemployed etc, and constantly bemoans their treatment by society , that it is perfectly ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them:confused[evil]

[rob murray]

so are you really saying, as someone who champions the cases of the poor,needy, sick,unemployed etc, and constantly bemoans their treatment by society , that it is perfectly ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them:confused[evil]

A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand.

[changilass]

Are you suggesting that only the rich should be able to have kids?

If I had waited till I could afford kids I still wouldn't have any today, as it is I have 2 beautiful boys that I would give my life for.

How do you know all these people have never worked a day in their lives and have no intention of ever doing so?

Those kids may be the ones paying for your pension in years to come.

[equusdriving]

A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand.
no just a simple question, what part didnt you understand?

[equusdriving]

Are you suggesting that only the rich should be able to have kids?no I am suggesting that only those who can afford them should have them

How do you know all these people have never worked a day in their lives and have no intention of ever doing so?Because those are the only ones I refered too


Those kids may be the ones paying for your pension in years to come. or they just as equally may be the ones who are being kept for the rest of their life by taxpayers

[changilass]

Do you ever have any positive thoughts?

[squidge]

Equus your question pre supposes that people's lives remain the same the whole way through. People do move into work, they find work even when they have been out of work for years or if they have never worked. Attitudes, aptitudes, abilities, motivation, education, all these change throughout our lives and believe it or not that is the case for everyone. No one is the same person at 40 that they were at 18.

Your sterilization suggestion ( i still think you must be joking) is ludicrous because it means you are deciding that people will never work at a relatively young age. I assume this would need to be decided at puberty. It also suggests that people can only be judged worthy if they have a paid job. There are hundreds of thousands of people who volunteer who are not working for a whole range of reasons. There will be people who will never work because of disability - are they to be sterilised too?

What about the actual work of bringing up a family? The choice to be a stay at home mum is rapidly being seen as a way of opting out. It has never been valued as it should and today the government prevents single parents from making that choice. Single people with children over 5 MUST claim JSA and be available for work never mind the needs of their family.

So am I saying it is ok for unemployed people, people claiming benefits, people without paid employment, the sick, disabled and others to have children... Yes I am. It might not be my choice, it might not be what you would choose but should they be prevented by being sterilised? Absolutely not.

Again Equus i suggest you look outside your narrow viewpoint and see what you find. When you have done that then come back and let us know what you saw. If you dont know where to start then Im sure one or two of us would help.

[equusdriving]

Equus your question pre supposes that people's lives remain the same the whole way through. People do move into work, they find work even when they have been out of work for years or if they have never worked. Attitudes, aptitudes, abilities, motivation, education, all these change throughout our lives and believe it or not that is the case for everyone. No one is the same person at 40 that they were at 18. exactly,when and if their life changes and they can afford to support themselves and their children, should be when they think about having them


Your sterilization suggestion ( i still think you must be joking) I was speaking metaphoricly as "sterilization" had been mentioned

I ask you again "is it ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them"

[equusdriving]

Do you ever have any positive thoughts?
yes frequently but only ever about positive things

[squidge]

exactly,when and if their life changes and they can afford to support themselves and their children, should be when they think about having them
I was speaking metaphoricly as "sterilization" had been mentioned

Changi asked a question and this was your answer


or even better,compulsory sterilization of those who can't afford to keep themselves let alone a bunch of kids!

So forgive me if I failed to see the metaphorical nature of this comment - I am glad you clarified that for me - I am delighted that you did not mean it.



I ask you again "is it ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them"
Yes

The answer has to be yes because I know that people who have never done a days work in their lives may do a valuable job in the rest of their lives. Either paid or unpaid and it is not right for us to make a judgement that they are not worthy of having a family because they have not worked so far.

Lets put some meat on the bones of this......

One of my friends at school left at 18 with A levels and did not get a job and did not go to college. She signed on and messed about for a while. she couldnt be bothered with work. She didnt present well and she was not prepared to take risks. She then went on a government training programme and lasted about six weeks before jacking it in because they were treating her in a way that we would describe today as bullying. She lost her benefit for a while then continued to claim benefit. She met a lad and got pregnant and at 21 she had a wee boy. She lived at home with her mum and dad and she claimed income support and she suffered with PND - the boy left her. A couple of years later her mum died very suddenly and at the age of 54 from very aggressive cancer. My friend was devastated and so was her dad - she looked after her dad - no special benefits for this because Dad wasnt Ill in a way that qualified him for benefits at that time he was grieving. She started a relationship with a man who was very controlling and had another baby at around 27. She still hadnt ever had a paid job. She got a house from the council and the man battered her one night and she threw him out. She then suffered with Depression and Agoraphobia and it took several years to get over this during which time her dad died. When her daughter started P5 she started a university course in Manchester and despite her health and her lack of transport she completed the course and and did a post graduate teaching certificate. Finishing this when she was around 38ish. She did supply teaching and then got a part time permanent teaching job. She now specialises in teaching children with additional support needs on a full time basis. She is nearly 50 and will do this until she retires which is likely to be around 66.

Should she not have had children? Would you have sterilised her at 15? or 18? or when she had been out of work for 3 years? People change - With the right help and support they can return to work or find a job even if they havent had one before. Who are you to judge and say people like this lassie arent fit or shouldnt be allowed to produce children? You might very well have thought that this lassie would never work but look she did. She was supported to bring up her family and change her life by the benefit system and now she works and contributes. Why would you want to prevent that happening?

[equusdriving]

Who are you to judge and say people like this lassie arent fit or shouldnt be allowed to produce children? remember that thing you are constantly whining that you are entitled to "Your opinion" well that is mine and I am just as entitled to it as you are yours, Im glad you think that your friend not beginning proper work until she was nearly 50 a great success, as its only nearly 30 years after most people her age had

[squidge]

remember that thing you are constantly whining that you are entitled to "Your opinion" well that is mine and I am just as entitled to it as you are yours, Im glad you think that your friend not beginning proper work until she was nearly 50 a great success, as its only nearly 30 years after most people her age hadShe has been working for over 10 years Equus since she was 38. You didnt answer the question.... Would you have stopped her from having her children, would you have sterilised her? Would you tell her that her life has been wasted and useless or that she was a skived, scrounger and lazy good for nothing who can NEVER make up for her poor choices in your eyes. Or would you congratulate her on her happy healthy well educated children, on overcoming her difficulties and finding her place in life and society and see her as an example of what can be done with the righ help and support? Hmmm let me guess.....

[equusdriving]

She has been working for over 10 years Equus since she was 38. You didnt answer the question.... Would you have stopped her from having her children, yes if she couldn't afford to look after them and herself
would you have sterilised her? and you claim to act grown up
Would you tell her that her life has been wasted and useless or that she was a skived, scrounger and lazy good for nothing who can NEVER make up for her poor choices in your eyeswhen and where have I said or implied such rubbish

[squidge]

yes if she couldn't afford to look after them and herself How?
and where have I said or implied such rubbishOk maybe you havent... It was a question. You dont like it lets try a different tack. what would you have "done" with or to my friend to change things.

[equusdriving]

How? by making people realize that you have to pay your way and not rely on others to foot the bill
Ok maybe you havent no maybe about it, as you well know

[squidge]

by making people realize that you have to pay your way and not rely on others to foot the bill how?
no maybe about it, as you well knowI think you have at least inferred it but I am happy to let you off. So... What would you have dobe with or to my friend to change things?

[equusdriving]

how?right one more time, by not rewarding people for having kids they cant pay for themselves
I think you have at least inferred it but I am happy to let you off are you on drugs.......because if not I think you should be.
So... What would you have dobe with or to my friend to change things?sorry not my concern

[squidge]

This is an address to the Conservative Party by a blogger who has caught people's imagination with her blog detailing food she manages to make whilst living on benefits. She is a single mother and a great writer Its an entertaining read across a variety of issues. She was invited to address I think fringe meetings at the Tory Party Conference this week.

Here is the link http://agirlcalledjack.com/2013/10/03/calling-your-cuts-a-war-is-an-insult-to-my-father-and-to-my-brother-and-the-service-they-gave-this-country-this-is-not-a-war-it-is-a-massacre-conservative-party-address-jack-monroe/I

know some of you dont like following external links so here are a few pertinent extracts. After having to resign from her job because of childcare impossibilities.

"I felt a surging pride, updating my CV, that I could type “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into my recent work history. A well-respected, uniformed organisation. Hundreds of people had applied for my job back then, and I got it. I thought I was going to be okay.But the novelty wore off quite quickly. After you’ve typed “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into a few hundred online job applications, you no longer feel proud of the uniform you once wore, but resentful that the name of the organisation is so bloody long."

On foodbanks

". As much as the likes of Lord Freud and Edwina Currie would have you believe that ‘anyone’ can turn up to a food bank to top up the Ocado delivery with a couple of tins of dented tomatoes and some slightly black bananas, the reality is very different. The reality is that you need to be identified as being in need, by a social worker, a health visitor, a child care provider, your doctor. Someone needs to recognise that without their intervention, your family are going to go hungry. They direct you to a food bank for help. A lot of people don’t go, because of the shame and the stigma attached to queuing up outside a community centre to beg for food. Because I’ll tell you now, even after months of attending, it feels like begging. No matter how kind the volunteers, how discreet the carrier bags, you have to look someone in the face who knows that you are desperate and not coping and that your life is falling apart."

On poverty

"When I say ‘poverty’, you probably conjure up images of children far away, of TV appeals and ruthless dictators. But this, this is a country riddled with poverty. Turning off the heating and missing days of meals is not cosy frugality. Try it. Turn off the fridge because it’s empty anyway. Sell anything you can see lying around that you might get more than a quid for. Walk everywhere in the same pair of shoes in the pouring rain, with a soaking wet and sobbing child trailing along behind you, into every shop and pub in unreasonable walking distance and ask if they have any job vacancies. Try not to go red as the person behind the counter appraises your dirty jeans and tatty jumper and tells you that there’s nothing. “Not for you”, you add in your head. Trudge home. Pour some tinned tomatoes over dome 39p pasta and try not to hurl it at the wall as your son tells you he doesn’t want it. “I want something else Mummy,” but there isn’t anything else. But aren’t we just supposed to be grateful for our little scraps of tax payers money, and keep calm and carry on? Because that can’t possibly be poverty, not in the sixth richest country in the world with the benevolence of the welfare state. That’s austerity, isn’t it?"

There is more on this lassies blog if you are interested enough to search.

[equusdriving]

This is an address to the Conservative Party by a blogger who has caught people's imagination with her blog detailing food she manages to make whilst living on benefits. She is a single mother and a great writer Its an entertaining read across a variety of issues. She was invited to address I think fringe meetings at the Tory Party Conference this week.

Here is the link http://agirlcalledjack.com/2013/10/03/calling-your-cuts-a-war-is-an-insult-to-my-father-and-to-my-brother-and-the-service-they-gave-this-country-this-is-not-a-war-it-is-a-massacre-conservative-party-address-jack-monroe/I

know some of you dont like following external links so here are a few pertinent extracts. After having to resign from her job because of childcare impossibilities.

"I felt a surging pride, updating my CV, that I could type “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into my recent work history. A well-respected, uniformed organisation. Hundreds of people had applied for my job back then, and I got it. I thought I was going to be okay.But the novelty wore off quite quickly. After you’ve typed “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into a few hundred online job applications, you no longer feel proud of the uniform you once wore, but resentful that the name of the organisation is so bloody long."

On foodbanks

". As much as the likes of Lord Freud and Edwina Currie would have you believe that ‘anyone’ can turn up to a food bank to top up the Ocado delivery with a couple of tins of dented tomatoes and some slightly black bananas, the reality is very different. The reality is that you need to be identified as being in need, by a social worker, a health visitor, a child care provider, your doctor. Someone needs to recognise that without their intervention, your family are going to go hungry. They direct you to a food bank for help. A lot of people don’t go, because of the shame and the stigma attached to queuing up outside a community centre to beg for food. Because I’ll tell you now, even after months of attending, it feels like begging. No matter how kind the volunteers, how discreet the carrier bags, you have to look someone in the face who knows that you are desperate and not coping and that your life is falling apart."

On poverty

"When I say ‘poverty’, you probably conjure up images of children far away, of TV appeals and ruthless dictators. But this, this is a country riddled with poverty. Turning off the heating and missing days of meals is not cosy frugality. Try it. Turn off the fridge because it’s empty anyway. Sell anything you can see lying around that you might get more than a quid for. Walk everywhere in the same pair of shoes in the pouring rain, with a soaking wet and sobbing child trailing along behind you, into every shop and pub in unreasonable walking distance and ask if they have any job vacancies. Try not to go red as the person behind the counter appraises your dirty jeans and tatty jumper and tells you that there’s nothing. “Not for you”, you add in your head. Trudge home. Pour some tinned tomatoes over dome 39p pasta and try not to hurl it at the wall as your son tells you he doesn’t want it. “I want something else Mummy,” but there isn’t anything else. But aren’t we just supposed to be grateful for our little scraps of tax payers money, and keep calm and carry on? Because that can’t possibly be poverty, not in the sixth richest country in the world with the benevolence of the welfare state. That’s austerity, isn’t it?"

There is more on this lassies blog if you are interested enough to search.
very interesting , im sure but what has this got to do with this thread ?

[rob murray]

no just a simple question, what part didnt you understand?

I didnt understand a word or perhaps my eyes deceived me, after re reading your question...yep doesn't make any sense to me

[equusdriving]

I didnt understand a word or perhaps my eyes deceived me, after re reading your question...yep doesn't make any sense to me oh thats strange because you posted "A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand." when you thought it was a statement, only to then say "I didnt understand a word" when told it was a question:confused
luckily the person I was actually asking understood:D

[rob murray]

oh thats strange because you posted "A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand." when you thought it was a statement, only to then say "I didnt understand a word" when told it was a question:confused
luckily the person I was actually asking understood:D


What a laugh !!!

[equusdriving]

What a laugh !!! I can only assume from your strange posts, that you have been partaking, in some mind altering recreational substances, but all the same, I am pleased to have made you happy

[rob murray]

I can only assume from your strange posts, that you have been partaking, in some mind altering recreational substances, but all the same, I am pleased to have made you happy

You couldn't be so wrong, Im filling in a wee bit of down time, I thought by your nonsensical rant postings you were partaking mind altering recreational substances which re wired your "brain".....hence laughable ! Ta ta, time to go home !

[equusdriving]

Ta ta, time to go home !yes don't get the carers worried

[rob murray]

[QUOTE=equusdriving;1050300]yes don't get the carers worried[/QUOT

Thanks, now you mind and get yer nappy changed

[equusdriving]

=equusdriving;1050300]yes don't get the carers worried[/QUOT

Thanks, now you mind and get yer nappy changed
now see what happens when you get excited

[rob murray]

now see what happens when you get excited

Lol lol your a card !!