View Full Version : Hs2
piratelassie
24-Sep-13, 13:53
The logic behind the proposed HS2 line is to help close the north / south divide that exists in this "country", yet it will only go from London to the north of England. Not very British that is it? Yet I presume British tax money will help build it. So much for the NORTH / south divide.
The Edinburgh trams are not going to run along the original route to Ocean Terminal in Leith, they are stopping in Cenrtal Edinburgh. This is a terrible slap in the face to Leithers, who's taxes helped pay for the damn trams. I think thats Eck and his looney partys fault. Leith is being deprived of its rights here.
Leith? Where's that? I thought it had changed its name to Edinburgh Quays :D;)
RagnarRocks
24-Sep-13, 17:22
So you want independence and a high speed rail link to England just to reinforce that independence. The reality is hs2 is to link the financial heart to what's left of the industrial heart whether its value for money is a separate issue
The reality is hs2 is to link the financial heart to what's left of the industrial heart whether its value for money is a separate issue
Thats absolutely fine RagnarRocks. It links a bit of England to another bit of England. We know that. However if that is what it is then why designate it a UK project which benefits the whole of the UK? Because it doesnt. The same with the London Sewer Upgrade. The reason why these projects affect Scotland is because of the Barnett Formula. Simply - The Barnett formula works by taking the money spent in England on services and allocating an equivalent percentage (based on population and devolved service provision) to the Scottish Government.
No problem you think - however - Projects considered UK wide - like HS2 and the London Sewers are taken out of this equation before the calculation is made. This reduces the amount shown as being spent on Services and therefore reduces Scotland's share. Same with the spending on the NHS. We often congratulate ourselves that in Scotland the NHS is protected from the creeping privatisation that is hitting the NHS in England and we should be proud of that but, the money spent on NHS services is reducing because of this privatiasation and so the amount passed to Scotland will reduce putting our NHS at risk.
Golach would also have you beleive that the tram fiasco in Edinburgh is also Alex Salmonds fault and yet one of the first things that the SNP government did when it formed a monority government was to try to cancel the project because of the escalating costs and the massive problems and they were outvoted by the tories and the labour party. Again - take a look at the evidence and you will see the whole sorry mess laid out before you. Golach appears so blinded by his hatred of one man that he cant see whats in front of his face.
HS2 and Sewers, spending on Trident, the bedroom tax are Scottish Priorities because they HAVE to be - we have no choice but to contrubute to these things, no choice but to spend money on them. In and Independent Scotland we - the voters could choose the parties who's priorities best meet Scotland's needs and not have these priorities foisted on us with no choice but to contribute.
I don't necessarily agree with HS2. But generally, any project that benefits the UK benefits all the UK. You could say the same about the Edinburgh trams or the new Forth crossing or indeed Brittania Quay. You'd think no Scot ever crossed the border. :eek:
Difference is that these projects are funded out of the money given to Scotland by the UK Government - take the commonwealth games there is NO money coming direct from Westminster to Scotland for the games. Despite the Olympics being a UK wide project and so taken out of the calcualtion. No extra money because the games are a UK wide project, no extra money because the trams may benefit the UK visitors to Edinburgh. These projects will have to be funded from Scotland's budget. Thats fine, and if I had been in charge we would still have contributed to Olympics because it truly was a UK wide project but you know - London Sewers????
weezer 316
24-Sep-13, 19:11
Squidge, your narrow mindset, hopefully, belongs in the past. What after independence, no funding for caithness as all the cash was raised in glasgow? You think like a football fan.
Anyway, explain me this. Why should taxpayers in croydon foot the bill for this: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/32-million-of-additional-uk-government-funding-for-superfast-broadband-in-scotland--33
Why oh why should they? Not their problem Altnahara is in the middle of nowhere is it? Why should the UK govt fund this? Or even attempt to?
You misunderstand me Weezer. I think like a person who believes in an Independent Scotland. I think that Scotland should be managing its own spending on its own priorities. I think that Scotland's priorities need to be decided by an independent Scotland. I keep saying that. It may very well be that a Scottish Government would decide to contribute to UK projects but that should be for Scotland to decide. Equally we should be responsible for our own broadband, immigration, welfare spending, and so on. That would be because we can then tailor the systems and priorities we have to the needs of Scotland. If we arent paying for all this stuff then we could very well have had Faster Broadband sooner.
The Edinburgh trams are not going to run along the original route to Ocean Terminal in Leith, they are stopping in Cenrtal Edinburgh. This is a terrible slap in the face to Leithers, who's taxes helped pay for the damn trams. I think thats Eck and his looney partys fault. Leith is being deprived of its rights here.Did all of our taxes not pay for the trams?
equusdriving
24-Sep-13, 20:48
The logic behind the proposed HS2 line is to help close the north / south divide that exists in this "country", yet it will only go from London to the north of England. Not very British that is it? Yet I presume British tax money will help build it. So much for the NORTH / south divide.wow is that all you managed to glean from all that desperate web searching since your last unfounded rant[lol]
equusdriving
24-Sep-13, 20:51
If we arent paying for all this stuff then we could very well have had Faster Broadband sooner.news flash vote for Independence and get faster broadband, wow that's me sold on it.[lol][lol][lol]
weezer 316
24-Sep-13, 22:13
You misunderstand me Weezer. I think like a person who believes in an Independent Scotland. I think that Scotland should be managing its own spending on its own priorities. I think that Scotland's priorities need to be decided by an independent Scotland. I keep saying that. It may very well be that a Scottish Government would decide to contribute to UK projects but that should be for Scotland to decide. Equally we should be responsible for our own broadband, immigration, welfare spending, and so on. That would be because we can then tailor the systems and priorities we have to the needs of Scotland. If we arent paying for all this stuff then we could very well have had Faster Broadband sooner.
Coulda woulda shoulda......
The Uk is bigger, with the #1 heavyweight in is corner, the city of london. Broader shoulders and all that no? What does "Scottish" have to do with it? Brown was Scottish, so was Blair. Why does that matter?
The UK has a natural border, ie its coastline. It is undeniable. An independent Scotland is based upon an artificial construct, it has a border with England that is just a dividing line across our island which is purely arbitrary and is drawn with spilt blood.
Scottish Nationalism serves to promote the differences between the people who inhabit this island and ignores the common attitudes and customs that bind us.
The UK has a natural border, ie its coastline. It is undeniable. An independent Scotland is based upon an artificial construct, it has a border with England that is just a dividing line across our island which is purely arbitrary and is drawn with spilt blood. Scottish Nationalism serves to promote the differences between the people who inhabit this island and ignores the common attitudes and customs that bind us.Probably the worst union argument I have ever heard
Probably the worst union argument I have ever heard
In your opinion and probably of Yes voters.
Golach would also have you beleive that the tram fiasco in Edinburgh is also Alex Salmonds fault and yet one of the first things that the SNP government did when it formed a monority government was to try to cancel the project because of the escalating costs and the massive problems and they were outvoted by the tories and the labour party. Again - take a look at the evidence and you will see the whole sorry mess laid out before you. Golach appears so blinded by his hatred of one man that he cant see whats in front of his face. .
Squidge oh how wrong you have me, I do not have a hateful bone in my body, I admit I detest the man and his party. I posted the slightly facetious reference to the Edinburgh Tram fiasco , with reference to piratelassie's silly anti English rants she comes out with every now and again. She repeatedly does this and sits back watching the feathers fly therefor I knowing full well you would jump in and alledgedly correct me
piratelassie
25-Sep-13, 00:16
By that logic the whole of Europe should be one country.
The UK has a natural border, ie its coastline. It is undeniable. An independent Scotland is based upon an artificial construct, it has a border with England that is just a dividing line across our island which is purely arbitrary and is drawn with spilt blood.
Scottish Nationalism serves to promote the differences between the people who inhabit this island and ignores the common attitudes and customs that bind us.
piratelassie
25-Sep-13, 00:21
I am pro Scottish with a passion NOT anti English. Gulach what part do you nmot understand?
By that logic the whole of Europe should be one country.
Europe doesn't have a coastline...............
Europe doesn't have a coastline...............
Where do the ferries go when they leave Dover then?
It might not totally circumvent the arbitrary area of land we call Europe, so we'd better include the arbitrary areas of land called by us Asia & Africa into the equation also.
In your opinion and probably of Yes voters.I am a died in the wool unionist and think its ridiculous
Difference is that these projects are funded out of the money given to Scotland by the UK Government - take the commonwealth games there is NO money coming direct from Westminster to Scotland for the games. Despite the Olympics being a UK wide project and so taken out of the calcualtion. No extra money because the games are a UK wide project, no extra money because the trams may benefit the UK visitors to Edinburgh. These projects will have to be funded from Scotland's budget. Thats fine, and if I had been in charge we would still have contributed to Olympics because it truly was a UK wide project but you know - London Sewers????
Hmm.. I wonder how many Scots use the London sewers? I don't know, but a safe guess would be more than use the Inverness ones.
Coulda woulda shoulda......
The Uk is bigger, with the #1 heavyweight in is corner, the city of london. Broader shoulders and all that no? What does "Scottish" have to do with it? Brown was Scottish, so was Blair. Why does that matter?
Scottish doesnt matter - nor does English or Welsh or French as personal nationality but as Government it matters - it matters because the needs of Scotland and the Scottish electorate matters. The Union has done well but it no longer serves Scotland well enough. An Independent Scotland would reflect the needs of Scotland better - would focus on the priorities of an Independent Scotland because that is the point of it. Does the number one heavyweight actually stand in Scotland's corner? Or does it do what is best for the South east and London. I dont know. I think that Scotland will have the opportunity to do things differently in a way that we dont have today if it secures Indepedence; the opportuity to spend money in a different way and to raise money in a different way too. We will have choices which we dont have. Thats a good thing as far as I see. We do not have these opportunities in a United Kingdom
Scottish doesnt matter - nor does English or Welsh or French as personal nationality but as Government it matters - it matters because the needs of Scotland and the Scottish electorate matters. The Union has done well but it no longer serves Scotland well enough. An Independent Scotland would reflect the needs of Scotland better - would focus on the priorities of an Independent Scotland because that is the point of it. Does the number one heavyweight actually stand in Scotland's corner? Or does it do what is best for the South east and London. I dont know. I think that Scotland will have the opportunity to do things differently in a way that we dont have today if it secures Indepedence; the opportuity to spend money in a different way and to raise money in a different way too. We will have choices which we dont have. Thats a good thing as far as I see. We do not have these opportunities in a United Kingdom
And by that logic the Highlands would be better out of Scotland, or Caithness out of the Highlands?
Where does that argument stop?
And by that logic the Highlands would be better out of Scotland, or Caithness out of the Highlands?
Where does that argument stop?
Perhaps a world governemnt would be the best bet, woudl stop all the wars and money could be spread evenly to all.
And by that logic the Highlands would be better out of Scotland, or Caithness out of the Highlands?Where does that argument stop?It stops with nations. Scotland has a right to ask people whether they want an Independent Scotland because Scotland is a country within a union. Scotland is and has been a seperate and identifiable country for over 1000 years. The Union in 1707 did not change that. Scotland remained a nation in its own right. For me, thats where it stops
It stops with nations. Scotland has a right to ask people whether they want an Independent Scotland because Scotland is a country within a union. Scotland is and has been a seperate and identifiable country for over 1000 years. The Union in 1707 did not change that. Scotland remained a nation in its own right. For me, thats where it stops
Remind me, where was Caithness in Scotland 1000 years ago?
I am pro Scottish with a passion NOT anti English. Gulach what part do you nmot understand?
I dont understand your jealousy for all things English. I see no English people making a song and dance about the New Forth Crossing, the upgrading of the A9 to dual carriageway, and not for getting the Borders railway line, all being built at great expense, not to mention the £700,000 per year cost for two black and white bears to China, another one of Ecks personal projects.
The zoo's charitable owners, the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland, said its overall income jumped by more than £5m to nearly £15m last year, and the number of visitors leapt by 51% following the arrival of Tian Tian and Yang Guang in late December 2011.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/07/edinburgh-zoo-pandas-profits-increase
(http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/07/edinburgh-zoo-pandas-profits-increase)£700k for £5m is a bargain.
And by that logic the Highlands would be better out of Scotland, or Caithness out of the Highlands?
Where does that argument stop?
The Federation of Planets.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/07/edinburgh-zoo-pandas-profits-increase
(http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/07/edinburgh-zoo-pandas-profits-increase)£700k for £5m is a bargain.
Thats good news. My next question is who is getting the £5m the Zoo or the Scottish Government? If it is the Zoo, then in my opinion they are ripping off their paying customers, two Orgers went to the Zoo on Monday paid the price, then found out that the paying public cannot see the pandas.....to me thats a rip off. If your main money making act cannot be seen I would think a reduction in the entrance fee would be in order.
By that logic the whole of Europe should be one country.
now there indeed is a question...
Did they pre-book tickets as per the information on the website?
http://www.edinburghzoo.org.uk/visiting/panda.html
E (http://www.edinburghzoo.org.uk/visiting/panda.html)dit: just to add, Edinburgh Zoo are paying for the Pandas themselves.
Thats good news. My next question is who is getting the £5m the Zoo or the Scottish Government? If it is the Zoo, then in my opinion they are ripping off their paying customers, two Orgers went to the Zoo on Monday paid the price, then found out that the paying public cannot see the pandas.....to me thats a rip off. If your main money making act cannot be seen I would think a reduction in the entrance fee would be in order.
So how is it that I have seen the pandas?
Did they pre-book tickets as per the information on the website?
http://www.edinburghzoo.org.uk/visiting/panda.html
E (http://www.edinburghzoo.org.uk/visiting/panda.html)dit: just to add, Edinburgh Zoo are paying for the Pandas themselves.
Because of the pending pregnacy there is no viewing at the moment
No taxpayers money is being used to fund the pandas.
The Scottish government is funding the Rail Link, the A9 upgrade and the Forth Crossing. No extra money is coming from the rest of the UK to pay for these. So how come the HS2, sewers and the like are needing a Scottish contribution too? The Scottish projects mentioned are being funded out of the existing block grant that Scotland gets.
To say there is no song and dance from the rest of the UK about spending in Scotland is not quite true. There have been many calls to slash Scotland's budget from a variety of Westminster MPs and journalists. There remains an attitude that The rest of the UK subsidises Scotland because there is £1200 more per head spent on public services in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. This fails to recognise that there is £1700 more per head contributed from Scotland in the first place and also fails to recognise that we spend more on public services because we value them and see that this is money well spent.
Scotland pays in more than it gets back - this is quite clear. Only with Independence can we choose the priorities that suit Scotland and spend the money - the money raised in Scotland - on those priorities. Only with Independence can we do this without having to wait and see what Westminster gives us; without running the gauntlet of threats to reduce the budget and remove the powers we already have and therefore remove the opportunities of mitigating some of the Welfare reforms, or maintaining free higher education and prescriptions and personal care.
Meaning what?
It's just that you seem to have all the answers.
Lol i dont have ALL the answers but I do have some of the answers. Thats because I bother my backside to find them out and have been doing for the last 12 months. So when months ago someone said on here that the pandas cost tax payers money, i checked it out. Thats what I try to do Rheg. A script? Nope. research ... Yup. Months spent asking questions ... Yup. That might be hard for you to grasp being as you have me pegged as some stupid simpering woman who you can easily dismiss as foolish but nevertheless Rheg, thats what I try to do, research and understand. You could find the answers too if you bothered to look.
Lol i dont have ALL the answers but I do have some of the answers. Thats because I bother my backside to find them out and have been doing for the last 12 months. So when months ago someone said on here that the pandas cost tax payers money, i checked it out. Thats what I try to do Rheg. A script? Nope. research ... Yup. Months spent asking questions ... Yup. That might be hard for you to grasp being as you have me pegged as some stupid simpering woman who you can easily dismiss as foolish but nevertheless Rheg, thats what I try to do, research and understand. You could find the answers too if you bothered to look.
So how come your research has been found out to be null and void so many times? You just seem to gloss over the details when your research fails to convince. Just saying.
What is null and void Rheg? Are the pandas funded by the tax payer? Are HS2 and London sewers NOT designated as UK wide projects and the costs removed from Barnett Consequentials? Are the A9 upgrades, the rail link, the forth crossing NOT being funded by the Scottish Government?
equusdriving
26-Sep-13, 00:00
No taxpayers money is being used to fund the pandas.
no just the welcome party eh
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/293616/Panda-party-at-zoo-cost-us-nearly-43-000
£45k to welcome in something that has increased the income of the zoo by £5m is a bargin.
equusdriving
26-Sep-13, 00:47
£45k to welcome in something that has increased the income of the zoo by £5m is a bargin.firstly that wasn't the point,Squidge said it hadn't cost taxpayers!
but as you have mentioned it, as you said £45k of taxpayers money to increase "the income of the zoo" by £5m
and by the way, you forgot to add a list of the cost of the bears ????
firstly that wasn't the point,Squidge said it hadn't cost taxpayers!
I was referring to Gollach's statement that the Panda's were costing us £700k per year and was simply pointing out that it was funded by the zoo, not the tax payer. Not really sure what Squidge has to do with it.
but as you have mentioned it, as you said £45k of taxpayers money to increase "the income of the zoo" by £5m
Didn't you mention it by posting the link?
you forgot to add a list of the cost of the bears ????
Not really sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to the cost of getting the Pandas here, the care expenses or something else? If you have a list, I'd be interested to see it.
equusdriving
26-Sep-13, 11:23
I was referring to Gollach's statement that the Panda's were costing us £700k per year and was simply pointing out that it was funded by the zoo, not the tax payer. Not really sure what Squidge has to do with it.Oh really,"£45k to welcome in something that has increased the income of the zoo by £5m is a bargin." :confused where in Golachs statement does it mention £45k ? oh yeah that's right it doesn't, so obviously Squidges connection is that I was responding to her, and you questioned my response and then said you was referring to Golach who had never mentioned it:confused
Didn't you mention it by posting the link? so was you referring to Gollach or me? you seem confused:confused
firstly that wasn't the point,Squidge said it hadn't cost taxpayers money?Ah Equus so many hairs for you to split. I said the pandas are not funded by the taxpayer. They arent and lets remember that Edinburgh Zoo is actually a non profit organisation working hard for conservation and doing valuable research. 5 million pounds extra put back into high quality scientific research. If £45K encouraged that sort of increase in income and research money then its money well spent.
Its a shame you dont get so upset about millions of pounds of taxpayers money going to ATOS or A4e simply to end up in bonuses for it executives or money in the pockets of shareholders off the back of the misery of millions of people.
Origianlly I was referrig to Gollach's post here (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?212908-Hs2&p=1048761#post1048761) and then, the £45k, for those who are not keeping up, was based entirely on the link you (equusdriving) posted here (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?212908-Hs2&p=1048844#post1048844).
Please tell me which point I am about to argue on, because so far I have pointed out a mis-conception which was accepted as such and then stated that I thought £45k was a bargain.
I, please forgive my tired mind, still agree with my original statements.
equusdriving
26-Sep-13, 11:47
and then, the £45k, for those who are not keeping up, was based entirely on the link you (equusdriving) posted here (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?212908-Hs2&p=1048844#post1048844).
so that would be the one where I answered and quoted Squidge then? only as you asked what it had to do with Squidge I didn't think you could mean that one.
Please tell me which point I am about to argue on, I Wouldn't have thought you would have a lot of grounds to argue about making a clear contradiction:confused but that is entirely up to you:lol:
I, please forgive my tired mind, apology accepted:)
equusdriving
26-Sep-13, 11:51
Ah Equus so many hairs for you to split. .yes you certainly make it easy:lol:
Aye maybe I do at that lol. You seem to be determined to suggest I'm lying but as I amn't you end up with nothing of any point to say at all. One liners add nothing to the discussion but on ya go if it amuses you ...
orkneycadian
28-Sep-13, 07:05
I seem to recall this subject cropping up previously in the independence debate, with a point being put forward, that if we ever leave the UK, then we have no right to expect anything from them that will benefit Scotland. If the remainder of the UK wish to build an infrastructure that extends to their northern reaches, and no further, then thats their call. We can only greet when we have to take a horse and cart to the borders to join the train service throughout the remainder of the UK.
No doubt some will say that our taxes or oil would be paying for it, and in any intermediate period, should we become independent, that will always be a bone of contention. But in the long run, if we did become independent, then I fear that we will continually have disparity and things that do not dovetail over the border the way we would like.
That IS their call, you are right but there are many cross border infrastructure projects in Europe. There are funds to draw down and priorities which are set in Europe. There will be projects which the UK and Scotland would want to work together on. The difference is that this will be done from a point of view of negotiation and agreement,like the channel tunnel, not because Scotland has no choice but to contribute.
The horse and cart analogy is as useless as the greece and nigeria comparisons we have seen already this week. What all three of these comments suggest is that Scotland is too poor to afford anything on its own. That is not true. The economy of Scotland matches that of the UK without oil. Even at the lowest estimates oil will increase the wealth of an Independent Scotland but even without oil Scotland is putting in the borders rail link from its existing budget. Hardly a cart track. I hope we WILL have disparity. In our tax systems and policies, in our welfare state, in our poverty figures. We already have disparity in our Health Service, thank goodness.
secrets in symmetry
28-Sep-13, 11:38
High speed trains are great. They make for smoother, less stressful journeys than flying, and they're often quicker (for journeys of less than 1000km).
High speed trains are great. They make for smoother, less stressful journeys than flying, and they're often quicker (for journeys of less than 1000km).
I hate all forms of public transport with a passion. But, I recall a TGV journey I had to take for work where you could buy amazing food for lunch that was cheap, pay in Sterling and receive the change in Francs at a reasonable exchange rate. Contrasted with the sort of quality service you could get from British Rail at the time and you will realise why I am such a fan of privatisation.
secrets in symmetry
28-Sep-13, 22:39
I don't know why the secessionist eejits moan about HS2. If they were to get their way, then HS2 would be built in a foreign country, and be paid for by foreign taxpayers - in which case it would be none of their business. At the same time, they would renationalise Scottish rail, which would result in slow trains, poor reliability, and dreadful customer service.
I like the TGV and the Bullet Train, I haven't been on any of the others.
No No No No No........ Think back please when it was Caithness county council, there was No weeds on the paths, No weed killer put down, clean and smooth footpaths, roads throughout caithness kept in great condition, and i could go on and on, because the money generated in Caithness was put back into caithness, Not now.............. its taken from us ............ Highland council .....Eh ......just look at Inverness, ....no expenses spared there EH...... Thats our money from Caithness being spent down there ? ? ? /
No No No No No........ Think back please when it was Caithness county council, there was No weeds on the paths, No weed killer put down, clean and smooth footpaths, roads throughout caithness kept in great condition, and i could go on and on, because the money generated in Caithness was put back into caithness, Not now.............. its taken from us ............ Highland council .....Eh ......just look at Inverness, ....no expenses spared there EH...... Thats our money from Caithness being spent down there ? ? ? /
spend spend spend!
piratelassie
30-Sep-13, 23:59
Are those in the no camp scared to stand on their own two feet. Get off your knees and look after yourselves.
equusdriving
01-Oct-13, 00:17
Are those in the no camp scared to stand on their own two feet. Get off your knees and look after yourselves.
wow is that really all you can come up with after all that time thinking,:( don't you think its time to give up on this ridiculous pipe dream, before you waste another year on it , perhaps you could get a hobby, so you don't have to while away the hours desperately searching for a tiny scrap of anything that you think backs your lost cause[lol]:lol:
piratelassie
02-Oct-13, 00:06
You hope its a pipe dream, open your eyes and ears instead of just blethering.
wow is that really all you can come up with after all that time thinking,:( don't you think its time to give up on this ridiculous pipe dream, before you waste another year on it , perhaps you could get a hobby, so you don't have to while away the hours desperately searching for a tiny scrap of anything that you think backs your lost cause[lol]:lol:
equusdriving
02-Oct-13, 02:35
You hope its a pipe dream, open your eyes and ears instead of just blethering.
I have, that's why I know its a pipe dream,you should try it, then you might see sense.
anyway I bet you are mentally exhausted now,that's 2 sentences in 2 days is that a record for you?
neilsermk1
02-Oct-13, 12:47
I am a died in the wool unionist and think its ridiculous
Wot, you expired whilst wearing woolen garments. "DYED" plonker
piratelassie
02-Oct-13, 22:28
Still blethering
I have, that's why I know its a pipe dream,you should try it, then you might see sense.
anyway I bet you are mentally exhausted now,that's 2 sentences in 2 days is that a record for you?
Still blethering
And your still insulting, and not debating, just posting one liners
equusdriving
02-Oct-13, 23:04
Still bletheringyes,:D still struggling with more than one sentence at a time?:~(
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