B12 Deficiency Can Kill

[Kaytee]

B12 deficiency is prevelant but treated, in most cases, as an insignificant or trivial illness. In Scotland, unfortunately, they don't even have any specific guidelines for treating it and tend to hand out tablets that should only be given to vegans. These raise the serum levels in the blood but do nothing to help the physical symptoms.

Yet b12 deficiency could possibly affect one third of the population. It has been known for many years (nearly 200) to be a killer, it can cause dementia, it can cause autism in the young, it can cause heart attacks and and strokes.

Forget everything you thought you knew about it, and if you get time (and I haven't contravened any rules) take an hour out to watch this new documentary that has been released on Youtube.

It shows several patients who nearly died because their b12 level hadn't been checked - and one of them is a doctor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvEizypoyO0

Hope the mods will leave this up as it appears the people of Scotland may need help with this issue as it is rare to test patients and even rarer to get the correct medication.

[Tilly Teckel]

Wow, interesting thread, thanks Kaytee. I shall have a look at that documentary. The only time I've taken a B12 supplement was when I was vegan but once I started eating meat and dairy I stopped, thinking I didn't need it any more.

[Bobinovich]

I'll just keep eating Marmite, a great source of B12 :D

[Kaytee]

Ooh, see, I said forget everything you thought you knew before you watch it.

What we are talking about here is when b12 is malabsorbed. That can mean several things. Firstly that no matter how much you eat of it you only absorb 1% of what you eat. Secondly, the normal storage and circulation system that functions inside you for b12 - doesn't. So you are just losing what you put in - the normal recommended daily amounts don't mean anything.


You tend to get, unfortunately, the veggie v meat eater argument on several levels - but it's not about that. You can have a malabsorption problem whether you are a meat eater or a veggie. It's not about lifestyle.
Veggies tend to get blood levels checked more often by doctors but they also tend to supplement more than meat eaters.
The blood test after you start supplementing isn't worth diddly as a diagnostic tool because tiny amounts of supplementation will push blood levels into the normal range. Trouble is, it doesn't repair any damage or stop deterioration within the cells, muscles and nerves.

I don't want to throw too much at this, because before anybody comments they should really watch the video. Everybody will know somebody who reminds them of the patients in the video. Whether it's kids that become ill with strange neuro illness or autism, or someone who got demented or has an MS like disease.
It's not a case of 'it can't happen to me,' because it's all around us.

Scotland back in the 1920s were one of the first to recognise the work done by Murphy and Minot (Americans) who found a treatment for this illness and they were given the Cameron Award by Edinburgh University. These days, Scotland provides the worst treatment for this illness and they seem to have completely forgotten what it does to the human body.

[Fran]

I have just been diagnosed with this so found it very interesting, thanks.

[Kaytee]

If you want to know anything and I can help - just ask.

[Kaytee]

Someone PM'd to ask about symptoms so I've attached the link for an interactive symptom checker.
This was produced by Dr Chandy, a GP in England who has spent many years fighting for better diagnosis and treatment for b12 patients.

If you can think of anywhere else to place the documentary and let others know about it, please take time out to do it.

Here comes the checker link - now play nicely!

http://b12d.net/content/B12-signs-symptoms-assessment-form

[orkneycadian]

This is probably why we have evolved as omnivores rather than vegetarians.

Solution - Eat more beef and lamb - Preferably the variety that comes from Orkney farms!

[squidge]

Solution - Eat more beef and lamb - Preferably the variety that comes from Orkney farms!Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm:)

[Kaytee]

I don't think you've watched this, have you, Orkneycadian?

So, what I thought I'd do to make things easier for you is put this link in

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/107/12/4970.1/suppl/DC1

If you click the video link in this one it takes you to a page that makes you more correct than your trite response might originally seem.
It's also better for you to watch, because it's shorter and therefore demands a lower concentration span - and it's all in pictures - no spoken words at all to follow. Because it's a silent film, that proves going by what you've just said, they knew more about it in 1926 than we do today.

What this film is, is a documentary made by the Nobel Prize winners Murphy and Minot. They won the prize for discovering a treatment for pernicious anemia (the same I mentioned earlier)
In it, they show patients being given raw liver to eat. Over 300 gms per day (18lbs+ per month) in fact. But it has to be raw to get the requisite amount of b12. (I hope you're still thinking mmmmmmmm, Squidge)
This is because the people that suffer from it have malabsorption issues - it really doesn't matter what you eat (unless you normally eat 1/2lb raw liver per day) and the patients had to have this massive amount every day for all of their lives because only 1% of b12 is absorbed due to passive diffusion.

Maybe this will help your less than subtle sales pitch for Orkney meat? Maybe customers will be willing to trough down 1/2 lb raw liver per day to stop themselves dying - after all this is what the people in the film did. But then again, wouldn't it be comforting to think that attitudes and medical knowledge had advanced just a little bit since 1926?
Now people who are seriously ill and are reading this will understand a little better the attitudes they are up against.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, in the original documentary film there are 2 cases involving vegetarians and 2 cases involving meat eaters.

[secrets in symmetry]

I don't think I've come across movie worship before, except perhaps in 9/11 conspiracy threads....

[Kaytee]

I'm sorry, you've lost me - who's linking to movies?

The one I just linked to is a medical science documentary shown to the audience when 2 men (the great thinkers of our time) were awarded the Nobel Prize. They were also awarded the Cameron Prize in Scotland.

So your point is...?

[orkneycadian]

Maybe this will help your less than subtle sales pitch for Orkney meat?

I didn't think I was that subtle actually! Not normally my style. [lol]

Anyway, does this lead onto a link to a website where you can buy your B12 supplements? Having been posted on the 22nd of January, I am not sure how new this new video is thats been "released" on You Tube.

In the meantime, did I mention how delicious meat produced in Orkney is? Especially that produced in the North Isles? ;)

[secrets in symmetry]

Orkney meat is indeed delicious. It's (almost?) as good as Caithness meat. :cool:

[Kaytee]

No, I'm not selling anything and I resent the accusation.

There's a child dying in that video and the parents had to save its life because the doctors didn't know how to do it and I think your attitude - stinks. No other word to for it. To see somebody trivialise children dying like you are, just shows me what kind of people you really are.

I hope you sell a lot of meat - really - I mean, you're willing to go to any lengths to do it.

[Alice in Blunderland]

Thought provoking stuff. In reality many things can kill diabetes heart disease etc so it's a good idea to listen to your body and to speak to your doctor on any issues concerning you no matter how trivial you think they may be.

[gaza]

I don't think I've come across movie worship before, except perhaps in 9/11 conspiracy threads....


How dare you S.I.S ! ! ! where is your mind at ?

[Kaytee]

I think, although patients are accused of being neurotic and paranoid these days, you are correct. Although you have one heck of a mind-set to get past when speaking to doctors until you have a physical symptom they can see.
I found it very scary, when one doctor, who was apologising to me, said, "You see, there is an epidemic of people with emotional problems."
My response was, "No, there's an epidemic of sick people and you just aren't acknowledging they are ill."
If you went to a doctor in the Murphy and Minot era and reported limb weakness, it would be taken seriously. These days, they try and do tests to prove you have limb weakness and these don't show anything you are sent away as being emotional. Yet they aren't doing the right tests. Patients aren't being believed.

[tonkatojo]

Thought provoking stuff. In reality many things can kill diabetes heart disease etc so it's a good idea to listen to your body and to speak to your doctor on any issues concerning you no matter how trivial you think they may be.

I did not know I was deficient till my doctor started giving me B12 injections every 3 month and this has been going on for the last 8 year or so, My doctor was from Canisbay surgery and she was a brilliant doctor to me, the care and diagnosis she discovered no doubt has given me a longer life not just the B12 thing but numerous other ailments. The down side I am told I will be on them for life.

[Kevin Milkins]

I have finally had time to sit and watch the clip that was post and found it informative.

Thank you for sharing this information with us and bringing it to our attention.

KM

[Kaytee]

To Tonkatojo

In Europe patients are given injections every month and many people find they need them every week.
The reason, it seems, that in the UK we get them every 3 months, is that back in the 60 or 70s, two GPs did a study on saving money by extending the time that patients got their b12 jabs. There was no report done on how it affected patients just on how much doctors could save. At that time nurses used to go out and give the jabs so it made the job expensive - the current price of the actual jab is about 50p - and so they saved a lot. They also did the same with MS patients.
If I were in your shoes I'd make sure you have a bit of a run-through on that symptom checker I put up earlier. It sounds as if your GP cares, but most GPs have little knowledge of the condition other than giving patients a jab every 3 months - but there is no medical reason for limiting it to every 3 months. No foundation whatsoever. If you have remaining symptoms they will just treat you as if it's another illness causing the problem when in actual fact b12 more regularly might help with the other ailments?

[Kaytee]

For those who are interested, I noted on the Orcadian Online website that tomorrow there is going to be a tv programme broadcast in respect of the high incidence of Multiple Sclerosis in Orkney.
It will be interesting to see just how the symptoms of b12 deficiency are compared to that of MS and to see how far they go toward ruling out b12 deficiency before making a diagnosis of MS.