View Full Version : UKAEA admits to illegal dumping
concerned resident
06-Feb-07, 23:49
Dounreay has admitted illegal dumping, Should it not be the case that they Now should pay compensation to the County of Caithness and Sutherland, for damage to tourism in the past and the future, due to there negligence, and if not forth coming, should not Highland council take it to court on our behalf. look forward to hearing your views, as i do not expect anything will be done, as highland council is only interested in Inverness
North Rhins
07-Feb-07, 00:02
I read this on the news as well. It would appear that they were dumping waste into the Firth as late as 1984! I could have understood had it been in the 50’s or 60’s when I don’t think they had a clue what they were doing, but 1984, that is just plain criminal. When you think of the amount of debris found on Sandside Bay, it makes you wonder just how much was dumped. Let’s see what the repercussions are, but don’t hold your breath.
The Pepsi Challenge
07-Feb-07, 03:21
I reckon it'll be compared to spilt milk.
The charging and pursuit of the UKAEA over activities that took place 20 - 30 years ago is a complete nonsense and a great waste of public money. The time spent by Sepa and Dounreay employees on this matter has wasted public money, court time has been lost and solicitors have made a’mint’. Next we are likely to have a judge who would be better placed spending time on real criminals handing out a massive fine. And who pays? The tax payer once again foots the bill.
Actions in the sixties and seventies especially took place in the context of the time and while not acceptable by today’s standards they were like slavery and boys going up chimneys, socially and scientifically acceptable at the time. Pointing out the errors is one thing, spending resources by going through a pointless legal process costing us, the public, financially is quite another.
concerned resident
07-Feb-07, 18:28
Cattach
Must admit you are right in it being public money, but if Caithness and Sutherland do not make a claim for damage, Tony Blair will only spend the money else where, possibly start another war, or give them selves another wage rise, I just thought that when the gates of Dounreay close for a final time, this money could be put to bring some future into the area, and if this had taken place in another country, they would have made a claim. The British Government must be proud, that they have such stupid citizens
The charging and pursuit of the UKAEA over activities that took place 20 - 30 years ago is a complete nonsense and a great waste of public money. The time spent by Sepa and Dounreay employees on this matter has wasted public money, court time has been lost and solicitors have made a’mint’. Next we are likely to have a judge who would be better placed spending time on real criminals handing out a massive fine. And who pays? The tax payer once again foots the bill.
Actions in the sixties and seventies especially took place in the context of the time and while not acceptable by today’s standards they were like slavery and boys going up chimneys, socially and scientifically acceptable at the time. Pointing out the errors is one thing, spending resources by going through a pointless legal process costing us, the public, financially is quite another.
The potential damage of dumping was at best heavily questioned in the context of the 70s. Angry young punks like myself marched on many installations protesting about such issues. I am not sure there is value in chasing for repairation but I do not think we should allow people a vail of innocence when there was not one. It is strange how so many hippies and punks extreme views have now become the percieved wisdom of the masses.
Stratman wrote
It is strange how so many hippies and punks extreme views have now become the percieved wisdom of the masses.
What is strange about that, it is only the middle class pseudo hippies and punks that had any views about anything – the proper ones were just having a good time.
Stratman wrote
What is strange about that, it is only the middle class pseudo hippies and punks that had any views about anything – the proper ones were just having a good time.
You do the "proper ones" an injustice.
That's a matter of persepctive and opinion Stratman;)
If Dounreay is not taken to task over this I think that would be an absolute insult to the people of Caithness, if someone was caught fly tipping household rubbish they would qiute rightly be prosecuted so Dounreay has dumped radio active waste that will blite our coastline for hundreds of years why shouldn't they be made to pay, I personally find the whole thing has left me feeling gutted, some of my favourite passtimes has been affected by this crime against the enviroment, simple pleasures such as Sunday morning beach combing while walking the dog, digging up bait to go for an afternoons fishing trip or gathering mussles to have with a nice seafood salad, all now a definate no no.
Lets get this into perspective for a moment, in the seventies I recall Thurso beach being packed with swimmers and children paddling during the long summer days while not too far away Dounreay was pumping radio active particals into the sea knowing full well what they were doing, I was always swimming in the sea as a youngster and was forever getting sand in my mouth (and everywhere else) I was always dragging sand into the house which I would always get a tellin of for but nobody would have thought for a minute that we were in any danger. Sadly some of my friends from those days have passed away now, some having surcome to Cancer, could there be a connection I wonder? well I will never know because Dounreay would never admit responsibility and thats for sure.
I am sure there are those who have worked in Dounreay all their lives and have two cars in the driveway and own their own house all of the back of their earnings recieved from the vile place who would stick up for dounreay simply because it has furnished them with luxuries for many years but they should realise that everyone is now paying for the actions of this Nuclear site and don't think that hasn't affected the tourism trade, Dounreay should pay and pay dearly for this...and they should be made to change their name to DOOMreay!
Rant Ooooover.
The UKAEA will not pay heavily for it, as a NDPB the tax payer will, that is you and me.
Tubthumper
07-Feb-07, 23:22
There's a thing called vicarious liability eg the organisation is responsible for the actions of its employees. Those of you chucking bricks at the UKAEA might well remember that the UKAEA was/is made up of people who live(d) in this community.
I always thought it would be appropriate to drag the goons that put stuff into the shaft out of retirement, tie them on a rope and drop them down there to clean up the mess they've left for us.
Regarding Clash67's diatribe: Is it more to do with the two cars and the driveway than the radioactive sand???
Anyway, regarding hysteria:
Bird flu
Asbestos in public buildings
Being involved in a motor vehicle accident
Your children being affected by global warming
Radioactivity from Dounreay
Which of these REALLY gives you the fear?
There's a thing called vicarious liability eg the organisation is responsible for the actions of its employees. Those of you chucking bricks at the UKAEA might well remember that the UKAEA was/is made up of people who live(d) in this community.
I always thought it would be appropriate to drag the goons that put stuff into the shaft out of retirement, tie them on a rope and drop them down there to clean up the mess they've left for us.
Regarding Clash67's diatribe: Is it more to do with the two cars and the driveway than the radioactive sand???
Anyway, regarding hysteria:
Bird flu
Asbestos in public buildings
Being involved in a motor vehicle accident
Your children being affected by global warming
Radioactivity from Dounreay
Which of these REALLY gives you the fear?
The point I was trying to make , which obviously went over your head, was that the majority of people that seem to stick up for Dounreay are those who have enjoyed the financial benefits that the place has brought them, rather than see dounreay as having lied to us and poluted our coastline some only see the material things that it has brought them, much the same attatude as those who make a living from cutting down the rainforest, they may be killing the Earth but as long as they have a comfortable life they are ok with it.There are some things I personaly think are worth more than money to me, my health, the health of my family and being able to go paddling with my daughter and showing her the life that exists in rockpools without having to worry about radio active particals. I have two vehicles in my driveway, only difference is I earned it through HONEST hard work and I didn't flush waste into the enviroment that will pollute Caithness shores for hundreds of years to do it.
ALL waste materials that are accumulated through my work is disposed of in the most enviromently friendly way possible, I certainly wouldn't allow harmful materials to be flushed or dumped anywhere that is likely to harm either humans or wildlife. These people who flushed the waste from the site must have stood on the Esplanade back then on those long hot summer days and watched all the bathers in the sea and said to themselves " if only they knew", I think that some people will do anything for money without any consideration of the end result, these people have the gaul to still consider themselves as upstanding members of our community but they know what they done and now we have to live with it.
Where is the logic in your question "Which of these do you really fear?" , surely we must be logically fearful of all of the those things because they are all potential threats to ourselves or loved ones, I'm not saying that we all loose sleep over these things but at the back of our minds we all surely know that these are very real threats.
webmannie
08-Feb-07, 10:00
I have two vehicles in my driveway, only difference is I earned it through HONEST hard work
I have earned everything through HONEST hard graft and I have worked for the main Decommissioning Contractor the last 25+ years, you calling me DISHONEST?
Do not tar us all as being DISHONEST, the staff work as diligently as possible, sometimes there are accidents. I personally would not knowingly allow any action that would endanger or pollute my immediate environment. If everybody did the same then the world would be a better place.
Mankind progresses itself, by learning from mistakes! Sometimes they take time to learn, but we learn!
Personally I'd be more worried over the effect nature has on mankind, CO2 is not an exclusive byproduct of humans!
I have earned everything through HONEST hard graft and I have worked for the main Decommissioning Contractor the last 25+ years, you calling me DISHONEST?
Do not tar us all as being DISHONEST, the staff work as diligently as possible, sometimes there are accidents. I personally would not knowingly allow any action that would endanger or pollute my immediate environment. If everybody did the same then the world would be a better place.
Mankind progresses itself, by learning from mistakes! Sometimes they take time to learn, but we learn!
Personally I'd be more worried over the effect nature has on mankind, CO2 is not an exclusive byproduct of humans!
Having re-read my post I admittedly could have worded it better, I certainly don't consider everyone who works in Dounreay as dishonest that would be ridicoulis (spelling mmm..) ,indeed I was referring to the people who flushed the waste,the guys who stood there and said nothing, those who gave it the go ahead and those irresponsible half wits that sat behind desks and allowed the whole thing to happen and kept shtoom in fact I was referring to all those who were personnaly responsible for this crime not accident, I am very sure that you are hard working and honest much like the rest of us but the people responsible ( who ever they may be ) certainly are not.
I would find it easier to forgive and forget if the whole thing wasn't so disasterous and as for the Dounreay representitives that was forever reasuring the public that the latest partical finds are are always of no risk to public health, well who can believe them! I certainly will not be allowing my family to pick things of the beach because regardless of what the Dounreay reps say there is a very high risk of something the size of a particle inadvertantly getting into the human body via the mouth, no more picnics on the beach for me or my wee girl, no more sand castles, no more picking up a stone to through for the dog to fetch, all the basic simple pleasures of living by the beach taken away.
Certainly the public would end up paying if there was a huge fine imposed on dounreay but I feel personally that flushing radio active waste should be a crime punishable by a jail sentence, fish out those responsible and stick them in the clink.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant but the whole thing makes my blood boil.
The potential damage of dumping was at best heavily questioned in the context of the 70s. Angry young punks like myself marched on many installations protesting about such issues. I am not sure there is value in chasing for repairation but I do not think we should allow people a vail of innocence when there was not one. It is strange how so many hippies and punks extreme views have now become the percieved wisdom of the masses.
Don't delude yourself!! Not very many have gained recognition. You were blinkered then and quite clearly still are - by Utopian beliefs or maybe something else popular with punks and hippies!
Tubthumper
08-Feb-07, 21:04
Clash67, you have a kind of holier-than-thou approach to this argument. I notice from previous posts that you've been active in the local music scene. Many of those who paid to see your band would be Dounreay workers. If no Dounreay, where band??
You must have gigged out at the Forss base - you'll no doubt have been worried by the microwave radiation transmitted from there, a suspected/possible contributory factor in leukaemia clusters.
If you've ever been surfing, you'll have been at risk of something horrible happening to your body as a result of the raw sewage that used to spill into the sea at Thurso East (and wash up on the beach at the esplanade).
Consuming seafood carries a far higher risk of heavy metal or simple food poisoning, whether it comes from the Pentland Firth or anywhere else. (source - same place you got your reference to possibility of ingesting radioactive particle)
You have 2 cars in your drive, contributing to global warming that will see our children enjoying less of an idyllic lifestyle than we have had.
My point was that all those issues pose threats to our health, short or long term.
If RADIOACTIVITY!!! is so terrible, perhaps those who work(ed) with it were doing us all a favour by putting their health at risk in order to develop nuclear power.
This community would not be what it is if Dounreay hadn't been built. Dounreay workers ain't all law-breakers - how about you?
ywindythesecond
08-Feb-07, 21:41
I have been following this thread.
I can't understand the outrage expressed by some this week, where have they been?
Nothing new has come from the court appearance this week. All the facts about radio-active release have been in the public domain and well aired in the press for long enough.
I don't defend actions taken by people many years ago, nor condemn them because understanding and regulation in those days awas much different from now,but what good will come from demanding huge penalties against Dounreay for something that happened when a completely different regulatory, social and environmental framework was in place.
Today's reality is that any financial penalty imposed on Dounreay will be directly taken from the budget for present workload, and that means that today's workers will suffer.
How much has it cost to take UKAEA to court for something that happened many years ago? What good will it do?
I have assessed the risk from radioactive emissions from Dounreay, and I have decided to stop eating the sand on Dunnet Bay.
Tubthumper
08-Feb-07, 21:44
Amen to that Windy!
Clash67, you have a kind of holier-than-thou approach to this argument. I notice from previous posts that you've been active in the local music scene. Many of those who paid to see your band would be Dounreay workers. If no Dounreay, where band??
You must have gigged out at the Forss base - you'll no doubt have been worried by the microwave radiation transmitted from there, a suspected/possible contributory factor in leukaemia clusters.
If you've ever been surfing, you'll have been at risk of something horrible happening to your body as a result of the raw sewage that used to spill into the sea at Thurso East (and wash up on the beach at the esplanade).
Consuming seafood carries a far higher risk of heavy metal or simple food poisoning, whether it comes from the Pentland Firth or anywhere else. (source - same place you got your reference to possibility of ingesting radioactive particle)
You have 2 cars in your drive, contributing to global warming that will see our children enjoying less of an idyllic lifestyle than we have had.
My point was that all those issues pose threats to our health, short or long term.
If RADIOACTIVITY!!! is so terrible, perhaps those who work(ed) with it were doing us all a favour by putting their health at risk in order to develop nuclear power.
This community would not be what it is if Dounreay hadn't been built. Dounreay workers ain't all law-breakers - how about you?
So you think I have a holier than though aproach, well if I was to compare myself to people who qiute blatently scarred our coastline for centuries to come then I would say yes I am holier than them, I wouldn't have stood back and watched the county being blemmished in this way just because there was a wage packet at the end of the week, and as for "where would my band be" I can tell you that most of the 20 years that I have played have been down south, only reason we played any gigs locally was to enjoy a night out among friends and to be able to go home afterwards rather than some hotel room for a change so as for "if no dounreay, where band??" the band would be still doing what it always did, touring. if you think that my band would collaps just because Dounreay wasn't there , then you would be very wrong, besides if you read my posts you would know that I do not blame everyone that works at Dounreay but those directly involved in the contamination of the coastline from the big decision maker behind a desk that gave the whole thing the go ahead right down to the guy that personnally flushed the particles.
as for having two cars in my driveway one is my wifes and the other I use for work, both vehicles are there for a reason.
As for suggesting that I think radio activity as being so terrible I didn't say any thing about Radio activety being terrible but when it is being blatently flushed into the sea THEN it becomes terrible.
Surfing, fishing and all persuits for that matter all have there potential hidden dangers to our health but does that in ANYWAY justify adding to those dangers, what we should all be doing is working together to lessen those dangers not significantly adding to them. I am sure that with everything that Dounreay has brought to Caithness was welcomed with open arms but nobody could have known that long after the place is closed down and all the wealth generated by it has dissapeared down south we will still be left with the God awfull mess that has been left behind for our children to inherit.
So this county wouldn't be what it is if Dounreay hadn't been built, I suppose you think we would all still be living back in the dark ages , don't kid yourself, Caithness managed for hundreds of years before Dounreay and I am sure that we will survive when it is gone. And for the last time I DO NOT BLAME EVERYONE THAT WORKS AT DOOMREAY just the GUILTY ONES and they know who they are, I only hope that they can sleep at night.
I ain't no angel, i am sure none of us are but don't compare me with the money hungry cretons that particalised our beaches with no care to the safety of the public. oh and I did gig at the Forse Base but back then Dounreay was still guarding their dirty little secrets, besides the danger zone by then had stretched a lot further than the local vicinity of Dounreay, there was just as much chance of running into a radio active spot gigging at the regular beach parties we USED to enjoy on Dunnet beach as there was gigging at the base.
cliffhbuber
09-Feb-07, 04:58
Who has oversight over such operations?
Are there not government controls and inspectors?
Are the politicians not the final arbiters (with responsibility) of publicly supported industry?
concerned resident
09-Feb-07, 08:45
Would have appreciated the views of a Councillor or two on this subject, but maybe a bit to hot a subject, so near to election time.
Tugmistress
09-Feb-07, 10:47
And just as a slight connection, taken from the 'scotsman'
Fact of the day today .........
On this day in 1944, Minister for Technology Frank Cousins announced plans for the world's first electricity-producing "fast" reactor at Dounreay. Situated on the north-east coast of Scotland, Dounreay's status as one of the most remote spots in the UK influenced the decision to locate the reactor there, although the significant number of labour available in Thurso also contributed. Costing £30 million at the time it contributed 600 million units of power to the national grid before being decommissioned in 1997, after years of safety concerns.
How bad are the journalists who put these "facts" together?
And just as a slight connection, taken from the 'scotsman'
Fact of the day today .........
On this day in 1944, Minister for Technology Frank Cousins announced plans for the world's first electricity-producing "fast" reactor at Dounreay. Situated on the north-east coast of Scotland, Dounreay's status as one of the most remote spots in the UK influenced the decision to locate the reactor there, although the significant number of labour available in Thurso also contributed. Costing £30 million at the time it contributed 600 million units of power to the national grid before being decommissioned in 1997, after years of safety concerns.
Tuggs? is that a typo by you or the Scotsman newspaper, 1944 ? We were in the middle of the Second World War then? Fast Reactors were a pipe dream in 1944 [lol]
cliffhbuber
09-Feb-07, 14:53
1966: New nuclear reactor for Dounreay
A nuclear reactor described as "the system of the next century" is to be built at the Dounreay power station on the north coast of Scotland.
Minister for Technology Frank Cousins made the announcement in Parliament today.
Dounreay has been awarded the £30m Prototype Fast Reactor (PFR) in the face of competition from the Winfrith nuclear power station in Dorset.
The United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) will build and operate the prototype reactor.
UKAEA chairman Sir William Penney said it was hoped to have commercial power stations in operation by 1978.
Fast reactors were popular when uranium stocks were thought to be dwindling but construction of them slowed when new uranium reserves were discovered.
The Prototype Fast Reactor at Dounreay was the only one ever built in the UK.
In 1994 the PFR was the last of Dounreay's three reactors to cease operation but the UK remained a member of the European Fast Reactor research programme.
During its lifetime as an electricity-producing station Dounreay supplied 600 million units of power to the national grid.
Dounreay continued to process nuclear waste but in 1998 it was announced that the entire site would be closed.
The announcement followed a series of problems at the plant culminating in the discovery that enough uranium to build 12 nuclear weapons had gone missing.
Dounreay is now in the process of being decommissioned.
It is expected to be 2060 before the site is cleaned of all nuclear material and can be redeveloped.
extracted in part from:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/9/newsid_2730000/2730083.stm
The particle charges may well relate to discharges up to 1984 but the fact is that Dounreay only put a final filter on its effluent system in 2005.
That's about 30 years after some of the guys that were flushing particles down the pipes alerted management to the dangers and were ignored.
That's 21 years after the first particles were found on local beaches.
It's at least 6 years since SEPA tried to get them to put a final filter on.
And many years after every other nuclear plant in Scotland had final filters installed on their effluent pipes.
The point of the legal action must be to partly try to deal with the obvious complacency that these timescales show? :confused
Skerries, you seem to know what you are talking about - please tell us about this final filter? The effleunt pipes you speak about - are they liquid or gaseous effleunts (or both)?
Also can you point me in the direction of information on the other Scottish Nuclear facilities that had these "filters" fitted?
Skerries, you seem to know what you are talking about - please tell us about this final filter? The effleunt pipes you speak about - are they liquid or gaseous effleunts (or both)?
Also can you point me in the direction of information on the other Scottish Nuclear facilities that had these "filters" fitted?
So, Skerries seems to know what he is talking about? (and I don't doubt it)
So, does that mean that....... you're not really blaming Herbie the Health Physics Monitor now??
"Herbie is full of hot air - if only it could be effectively harnessed."
Welcome to the real world, where employees did and do worry about their livelyhoods if they "blow the whistle" on perceived wrongdoings.
(or were the remarks by yourself and RST just something funny to say?)
I'm interested in the filters - I would like some information on them if possible. Can you provide information on them?
Can't recall blaming Herbie for anything - I stand by my statement that he is full of hot air.
It's a final filter on the liquid effluent system at Dounreay I was talking about in my post, as opposed to the gas discharges from the stacks (which is a different kettle of fish).
SEPA has details on Scottish nuclear site emmissions, so can tell you what filtration plant operators use on liquid and gas effluent discharges... and when they were installed.
Thanks Skerries, I was aware that UKAEA were instructed to fit filtration onto the Fuel Cycle Area Main Stack - but had not heard that filtration was required on the effleunt system, which uses a dilute and disperse concept. It would be interesting to see what size filtration was required.
Yes, it would be interesting. I hope it's not like a chain link fence! ;)
The final filter is a 50 micron bag filter that is backwashed according to the pressure differential across it. The backwashed effluent is put back through the plants Receipt system and re-treated. Sampling is carried out downstream and is taken as a regulatory sample which is bulked and reported to SEPA on a monthly basis.
The operators use chain link fencing when they are washing the floor
Most new processes on Dounreay site are filtered at source before being consigned to the effluent plant as per Best Practical Means as directed by SEPA.
It must be pointed out that the new effluent plant was ready for operation long before it actually got the go ahead.
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