Belief in God is no longer necessary.

[Rheghead]

The Pope has said that there is a Heaven waiting for atheists regardless of having faith or not.

That means you can spend your Sundays doing more productively and you do not now have to wrestle your concience over what the Church says what you must or mustn't do.

Erm? Didn't Jesus say you've got to believe in him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

[orkneycadian]

Will this heaven be open to atheists who don't spend their Sundays doing productive things, but stay in bed with a hangover instead?

[Kenn]

Is that a case of The Pope hedging his bets?

[The Dirty Vicar]

"Erm? Didn't Jesus say you've got to believe in him to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?"


Christ knows.

[mi16]

Is that a case of The Pope hedging his bets?

I suspect that the sweeping of child abuse under the carpet should be enough to seal his fate.

[weezer 316]

Well we would appear to have a useless god, if we didnt already!

Still astonishes me anyone argues for this nonsense. They argue its the word of god, then ignore almost all of it in the same breath.

Just imagine what a book written by the creator of the universe could contain?!?!

[secrets in symmetry]

Lol!

It's good to see the Rheg and Weezy show on the road again. :cool:

[Green_not_greed]

I'd suggest that the Pope is getting desperate for recruits....

... mind you, if the needle is large enough, even Susan Boyle could pass through it !

(just saying the needle size was never specified!)

[secrets in symmetry]

Well we would appear to have a useless god, if we didnt already!
I wouldn't use that argument. He would appear to be a master of fine tuning.


Still astonishes me anyone argues for this nonsense. They argue its the word of god, then ignore almost all of it in the same breath.Perhaps too many religious zealots ignore the Word of God, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He didn't create our Universe.


Just imagine what a book written by the creator of the universe could contain?!?!I hope He would explain how He did the fine tuning.

Or are you a Believer in the Squidzillions of universes paradigm - we exist in this fine-tuned Universe because it's the only one we can exist in?

Perhaps you're right - I don't know....

But the modern argument for God is the most powerful one we've ever had - in my humble opinion, of course. :cool:

[Mrs Bucket]

Modern agument could you please explain I just dont get it. Maybe its just me being a bit slow on the uptake.

[macadamia]

I think you'll find the answer lies with Schrodinger's Cat. Sadly, I don't know what the question is. But I'm sure one of you will!

[radiohead]

I personally cannot find a modern arguement for god, if there is one please enlighten me as talking to imaginary beings from story books is making me look a bit mad....

[weezer 316]

I wouldn't use that argument. He would appear to be a master of fine tuning.

Perhaps too many religious zealots ignore the Word of God, but that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He didn't create our Universe.

I hope He would explain how He did the fine tuning.

Or are you a Believer in the Squidzillions of universes paradigm, in we we exist in this fine-tuned Universe because it's the only one we can exist in?

Perhaps you're right - I don't know....

But the modern argument for God is the most powerful one we've ever had - in my humble opinion, of course. :cool:

The modern argument? What that? Prove he doenst exist? Intellectual honesty is required to have a debate and that is something the devout dont have.

Anyway, fine tuned for life. I assume your referring to things like the plank constant and the strength of the nuclear forces and the like and how if they were different life wouldnt exist. I would say firstly it took science to discover this stuff, and that our understanding is never complete. Anyone who argues life wouldnt exist is talking nonsense as we have no idea how a universe with differnt laws of physics would play out, especially as we have not even the faintest idea about the breadth of life in our own. Remember that. Fine tuning aint that if you have a zillion guitars. Many of them will still play a fine tune.

Secondly, the thigns a god could reveal would be astonishing. not crap like you kill a bird and dip another bird in its blood to cure leprosy!

[RagnarRocks]

Modern argument for god = take one learned book from millennia ago spend all that time arguing its the word of god then once challenged by science invent story about how it's not quite meant how its written and needs to reinterpreted for modern times ! Excuse me for not grasping this idea with both hands and shouting hallelujah!

[secrets in symmetry]

The modern argument? What that? Prove he doenst exist? Intellectual honesty is required to have a debate and that is something the devout dont have.Yes indeed. That's certainly the case for most of the devout on this forum. I thought they needed a little help. :cool:


Anyway, fine tuned for life. I assume your referring to things like the plank constant and the strength of the nuclear forces and the like and how if they were different life wouldnt exist. I would say firstly it took science to discover this stuff, and that our understanding is never complete. Anyone who argues life wouldnt exist is talking nonsense as we have no idea how a universe with differnt laws of physics would play out, especially as we have not even the faintest idea about the breadth of life in our own. Remember that. Fine tuning aint that if you have a zillion guitars. Many of them will still play a fine tune.

Secondly, the thigns a god could reveal would be astonishing. not crap like you kill a bird and dip another bird in its blood to cure leprosy!Yes, fine tuning. I should perhaps have said it was the scientific argument from physical science.

It's not just fine tuning for life, it's a lot more than that. It's fine tuning for most of the features of our universe!

You don't have to change much for the proton (and hence hydrogen) to be unstable, for the deuteron not to exist, for atoms not to exist, for biological molecules not to exist, ..., (all the usual "life" stuff goes here), ..., for stars not to exist, for the universe itself to be the size of a pea, etc....

The zillion guitars form part of the escape from God via a multiverse. Perhaps the latter is the right idea. Perhaps there's some sort of self-organised criticality that we don't understand.

I don't know....

[weezer 316]

You dont know......thats the point. Religion is ignorance by another name.

Quite possible there is a supreme creator. It must remain in the realms of unicorns though until it can be shown, and by definition anything that cant be disproven isnt science. Such honesty is beyond the devout, and when it strikes them to a man you have an athiest.

Again I wouldnt et itno the arguemnt about the make up of atoms and how things could change. We havent the foggiest about what could then be possible, and such speculation is just a 21st century form of the semi barbarians who sat and pondered god in the 6th century.

[Mrs Bucket]

Thank you all for comments. Much appreciated. Now all is clear as mud but interesting mud.

[secrets in symmetry]

You dont know......thats the point. Religion is ignorance by another name.

Quite possible there is a supreme creator. It must remain in the realms of unicorns though until it can be shown, and by definition anything that cant be disproven isnt science. Such honesty is beyond the devout, and when it strikes them to a man you have an athiest.

Again I wouldnt et itno the arguemnt about the make up of atoms and how things could change. We havent the foggiest about what could then be possible, and such speculation is just a 21st century form of the semi barbarians who sat and pondered god in the 6th century.We know much more now than we did in the sixth century, which makes today's discussions so much more meaningful.

Your definition of science is too narrow in my opinion. There are many hypotheses that can't be tested - and hence disproven - yet.

The "yet" is important.

Some may be disproven in a decade. Some may take longer. Others we're not sure about. They're still part of science - of a sort - albeit of the theoretical ilk.

[secrets in symmetry]

Thank you all for comments. Much appreciated. Now all is clear as mud but interesting mud.The fine-tuning problem concerns the constants of nature. If you change them just a tiny bit, then just about everything in the universe (including the universe itself) changes so much that human life can't exist. How can that happen by accident?

There are two popular explanations of this effect:

One is that we live in one of a squidzillion universes, each of which has different constants (and perhaps laws) of Nature. We live in this one because it's the only one we can live in. This is sometimes called the (weak) anthropic principle.

A second is that "God done it".

Weezy might explain why he believes the second answer is no answer at all.

[Rheghead]

The fine-tuning problem concerns the constants of nature. If you change them just a tiny bit, then just about everything in the universe (including the universe itself) changes so much that human life can't exist. How can that happen by accident?

There are two popular explanations of this effect:

One is that we live in one of a squidzillion universes, each of which has different constants (and perhaps laws) of Nature. We live in this one because it's the only one we can live in. This is sometimes called the (weak) anthropic principle.

A second is that "God done it".

Weezy might explain why he believes the second answer is no answer at all.

Ah but Occam's razor where the simplest answer has to be the right one.

You either think there are squidzillions of universes or just 'God done it'. :cool:

[secrets in symmetry]

Ah but Occam's razor where the simplest answer has to be the right one.

You either think there are squidzillions of universes or just 'God done it'. :cool:In the last year, a number of rather well-known scientists have (reluctantly) accepted that fine-tuning exists, and they're now looking for new "deeper" explanations of it - which is consistent with an Occam's razor approach.

[Alrock]

One is that we live in one of a squidzillion universes.

There is no need for a squidzillion universes (though there may be). Just one will do, just so happened that the laws of nature turned out the way they did & if they didn't we wouldn't be here to even debate the issue.

[secrets in symmetry]

There is no need for a squidzillion universes (though there may be). Just one will do, just so happened that the laws of nature turned out the way they did & if they didn't we wouldn't be here to even debate the issue.Did you absorb anything I wrote?

God help us!

[weezer 316]

SIS your point is circular and defeats itself, but thats bye the bye. If belief in god is no longer neccesary then the last need for one is gone. Everyone is already more moral than the gods they worship, we are already far superior at caring for the needy than we ever were under theocracy and belief in god is irrelevant when i comes to answering scientific questions like the one your pose.

Now all we need is for islam to start going the same and we might go forward as a civilization

[secrets in symmetry]

SIS your point is circular and defeats itself, but thats bye the bye. If belief in god is no longer neccesary then the last need for one is gone. Hmm, yet another one that apparently doesn't understand the (size of the) problem.

Try thinking for long enough to put together a coherent argument for once weezy, and you might make a useful contribution.

What I wrote isn't an argument for God, it's part of a framework in which one might be able to make some progress in understanding our world. The fune-tuning problem is real. It's arguably one of the biggest conundrums in science today.

[springparker]

brave new world ;)

[Better Out Than In]

When they discovered other planets and then began looking for some that might support life the Catholic church ordered a review (can't remember title for it). The conclusion was that life could not exist on other planets but if, perchance, it was discovered, then that was because God put it there. But I do worry about what was there before the big bang?

[Mrs Bucket]

I am enjoying this thread. more please and try to keep it simple. Thank you all in anticipation.

[Saveman]

Hmm, yet another one that apparently doesn't understand the (size of the) problem.

Try thinking for long enough to put together a coherent argument for once weezy, and you might make a useful contribution.

What I wrote isn't an argument for God, it's part of a framework in which one might be able to make some progress in understanding our world. The fune-tuning problem is real. It's arguably one of the biggest conundrums in science today.

There's no conundrum. The universe has been designed and created. Romans 1:20 :)

[RagnarRocks]

By conundrums do you mean the parts which don't act as science has predicted but is now studying to find out the solution? or is there some more mystical slant to it. From what I've seen so far science is quite admirably describing how the entirety of everything works and those parts which it doesn't it simply says we don't fully understand that yet. But people will still quote a single line out of a very old oft poorly translated and only viewed in a thoroughly adulterated state from the many originals book and claim there within lies the answer. I'm afraid religion especially most modern ones hold very few truths and society seems to be managing better with its waning influence !

[weezer 316]

Hmm, yet another one that apparently doesn't understand the (size of the) problem.

Try thinking for long enough to put together a coherent argument for once weezy, and you might make a useful contribution.

What I wrote isn't an argument for God, it's part of a framework in which one might be able to make some progress in understanding our world. The fune-tuning problem is real. It's arguably one of the biggest conundrums in science today.

SIS, your talking nonsense mate. Some numbers are what they are and are that way for reasons we may never (and definetly dont at present) understand, therefore your reduced to pointing out an unknown, and making claims about it, just like shamans 2000 years ago did. We dont even know what 96% if the universe is made of, never mind under what conditions life can live.

At present, your "fine tuning" consists of some lumps of carbon and water etching out an existence on the skin of one small planet. Its a ludicrous, and a religious-esque arguement, to say life couldnt exist if the laws of physics were different as we have nothing but a sole example in an incredibly insignificant spec of dust to work with, with the current laws! So keep your nonsense to yourself please.

[Rheghead]

There's no conundrum. The universe has been designed and created. Romans 1:20 :)

But what do you think of the idea that the Universe requires observers to make the decision that the Universe has been designed and created?

[Saveman]

I believe the universe had observers as it was being designed and created.

[weezer 316]

Lol, just lol

[secrets in symmetry]

SIS, your talking nonsense mate. Some numbers are what they are and are that way for reasons we may never (and definetly dont at present) understand, therefore your reduced to pointing out an unknown, and making claims about it, just like shamans 2000 years ago did. We dont even know what 96% if the universe is made of, never mind under what conditions life can live.

At present, your "fine tuning" consists of some lumps of carbon and water etching out an existence on the skin of one small planet. Its a ludicrous, and a religious-esque arguement, to say life couldnt exist if the laws of physics were different as we have nothing but a sole example in an incredibly insignificant spec of dust to work with, with the current laws! So keep your nonsense to yourself please.Lol weezy, you're such a Dawkins!

I explained the problem in a previous post, and I could give you links to detailed explanations from some of the world's top scientists, but I suspect you still won't "get it", so I won't bother....

[Saveman]

Lol weezy, you're such a Dawkins!
<snip>.

Ouch! No need to be nasty! ;)

[secrets in symmetry]

Ouch! No need to be nasty! ;)Lol!

Would I be insulted if someone called me a Dawkins? In this context - yes, I probably would!

[gaza]

You believe this, and they believe that, Well i believe we should reboot the world and start again with commonsense, respect, manners, and goodwill to everyone, EH. -------------- And shoot anyone who steps out of line more than once. THE END

[weezer 316]

SIS, you can quote who, what when and where you want, its irrelevant. Your argument, if its even that, is self defeating. You dont recognise it, thats your issue. Assuming this, that and the next is religious, or ignorant as its normally known. lets just stick to what can be proven eh?

Or not....

[Rheghead]

You believe this, and they believe that, Well i believe we should reboot the world and start again with commonsense, respect, manners, and goodwill to everyone, EH. -------------- And shoot anyone who steps out of line more than once. THE END

Don't you think there are two forms of Respect at play sometimes?

Respect from the point of view that someone is talking complete sense and you respect them for saying whatever.

Then there is the other kind of respect where everyone's opinion shall have the right to be heard no matter how wacky and implausible it is.

Which form of Respect deserves the most Respect?

[secrets in symmetry]

SIS, you can quote who, what when and where you want, its irrelevant. Your argument, if its even that, is self defeating. You dont recognise it, thats your issue. Assuming this, that and the next is religious, or ignorant as its normally known. lets just stick to what can be proven eh?

Or not....Lol! Put that spade away and stop digging weezy. You really have no idea....

It's quite hard to out-Dawkins Dawkins, but you'd give it a good shot!

You'll be arguing in favour of the secessionists next!

[weezer 316]

Quite...

Your fine tuned for ignorance it would appear so you may have a point.

[secrets in symmetry]

Quite...

Your fine tuned for ignorance it would appear so you may have a point.Lol! You never disappoint weezy....

I'm just testing you, of course. You just about pass, but not quite....

You need to learn to get (and think) out of Dawkins' box a bit more. Dawkins knows stuff, but not the right stuff....

I can give you some references if you ask nicely.... :cool:

[weezer 316]

Are you PCS by any chance?? Your points are eerily similar.

[secrets in symmetry]

Are you PCS by any chance?? Your points are eerily similar.Who or what is PCS?