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Cobra
07-Sep-13, 16:04
Hi folks,

Just looking for a bit of advice on security lights - not required for security reasons (this is Caithness, after all!) but it would be very handy to have a motion-activated light for when it's dark and I need to go out to the bins or to get coal.

I currently have what remains of a "bulkhead" type light which has been cemented and harled into the wall. The glass covering is long gone, and so it's not really safe putting a new bulb in there. I've just tested it though, and the wiring is still sound and it all works with a new bulb in it.

I don't have the skills to run new cabling to a new light outside (as removing this isn't an option), so I intended to cut the bulb holder off the two cables, attach a new mains lead to them then insulate the connections well with insulating tape, and then duct tape for good measure before siliconing this in behind the original fixture. I then intended to run the cable to the new light. It connects in to the light switch at the back door, which I would then just leave on and let the motion sensor do it's thing.

Here's where I ran into an issue: the 10W LED security light I got from Homebase requires an earth connection as part of the mains connection, and I only have live and neutral. Now, I'm no electrician, but not putting in an earth when I'm told to seems to be A Bad Idea. However, I can't seem to find any security lights of this type which do not require an earth lead (double-insulated).

For information, the light I bought is this one:

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=110&storeId=10151&partNumber=075041

I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions as to where I could get a security light like this (for a reasonable price) which requires no earth, or if anyone can suggest a way in which I could get the light I've bought fitted?

As always, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Cobra

Phill
07-Sep-13, 16:13
...... so I intended to cut the bulb holder off the two cables, attach a new mains lead to them then insulate the connections well with insulating tape, and then duct tape for good measure before siliconing this in behind the original fixture. I then intended to run the cable to the new light. It connects in to the light switch at the back door, which I would then just leave on and let the motion sensor do it's thing.

Nah!
Get a sparky to do it.
Or drill a new hole and run a single un-jointed lead off a plug top with a 3 amp fuse if you really desperate. Preferably with an RCD on the plug.

Making an electrical connection like this is a tad dodgy no matter how good you think its insulated. And if you need an earth, you need an earth.
Chances are it'll just end up blowing a fuse once water penetrates, worse case scenario is it could potentially start a fire and quite possibly in any wall cavity, and if its timber framed house.......

mi16
07-Sep-13, 19:51
Hi folks,Just looking for a bit of advice on security lights - not required for security reasons (this is Caithness, after all!) but it would be very handy to have a motion-activated light for when it's dark and I need to go out to the bins or to get coal.I currently have what remains of a "bulkhead" type light which has been cemented and harled into the wall. The glass covering is long gone, and so it's not really safe putting a new bulb in there. I've just tested it though, and the wiring is still sound and it all works with a new bulb in it.I don't have the skills to run new cabling to a new light outside (as removing this isn't an option), so I intended to cut the bulb holder off the two cables, attach a new mains lead to them then insulate the connections well with insulating tape, and then duct tape for good measure before siliconing this in behind the original fixture. I then intended to run the cable to the new light. It connects in to the light switch at the back door, which I would then just leave on and let the motion sensor do it's thing.Here's where I ran into an issue: the 10W LED security light I got from Homebase requires an earth connection as part of the mains connection, and I only have live and neutral. Now, I'm no electrician, but not putting in an earth when I'm told to seems to be A Bad Idea. However, I can't seem to find any security lights of this type which do not require an earth lead (double-insulated).For information, the light I bought is this one:http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=110&storeId=10151&partNumber=075041I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions as to where I could get a security light like this (for a reasonable price) which requires no earth, or if anyone can suggest a way in which I could get the light I've bought fitted?As always, any advice would be greatly appreciated!Thanks,CobraDo you live at the OK Corral as only a cowboy would try what you suggest.You obviously have no clue about electrical installations, do yourself a favour and call a sparky.

George Brims
07-Sep-13, 20:44
If the cable to the existing light it in conduit, or it'sa really short run, you might be able to draw a new section of 3-wire cable through by pulling it with the old 3-wire stuff. As I said, MIGHT. But mostly I just think you would be as well getting an electrician in. Or you could get a solar-powered security light, which will require no wiring at all. like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frostfire-Bright-Wireless-Powered-Motion/dp/B00CYA1PGC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1378583032&sr=8-2&keywords=solar+security+light

mi16
07-Sep-13, 21:21
If the cable to the existing light it in conduit, or it'sa really short run, you might be able to draw a new section of 3-wire cable through by pulling it with the old 3-wire stuff. As I said, MIGHT. But mostly I just think you would be as well getting an electrician in. Or you could get a solar-powered security light, which will require no wiring at all. like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frostfire-Bright-Wireless-Powered-Motion/dp/B00CYA1PGC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1378583032&sr=8-2&keywords=solar+security+lightI suspect the lack of an earth is due to metallic conduit.Been a while since I have hooked up a PIR light but they normally require a live and a switched live plus neutral and earth.

secrets in symmetry
08-Sep-13, 01:49
Or you could get a solar-powered security light, which will require no wiring at all. like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Frostfire-Bright-Wireless-Powered-Motion/dp/B00CYA1PGC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1378583032&sr=8-2&keywords=solar+security+lightHow does a solar-powered light (with no batteries) work at night?

Phill
08-Sep-13, 02:02
How does a solar-powered light (with no batteries) work at night?Windymills!

secrets in symmetry
08-Sep-13, 02:15
Windymills!It has no cables either!

The blurb on Amazon claims the sun charges the light - whatever that means....

Cobra
08-Sep-13, 05:05
Do you live at the OK Corral as only a cowboy would try what you suggest.You obviously have no clue about electrical installations, do yourself a favour and call a sparky.

I was seeking advice, not saying I was going to do it. I always prefer to carry out a task in light of good advice and guidance, as opposed to simply trial and error, and as a consequence ending up in difficulty - at the very least. Yes, I'm no expert: that's why I am seeking advice, and no, I'm not just paying to have it done... I want to learn. By the time an electrician can do it, I can too. It might take more time, but I may enjoy a new skill at the end of the task. I know it will be unlikely to look as professional or as neat as an electrician might manage, but given the fact that it isn't my particular field of expertise, I'm happy with a few rough edges - as long as the actual installation is sound.

Now, to the task at hand. Unfortunately, as the present connection is cemented beneath the original fixture, I don't think that replacing that is an option. It's totally weatherproof bar the small hole from which the wires protrude. They have been exposed to weather for years without issue, and I am confident in making this small gap weatherproof in order to secure the live and neutral connection and feed out of the wall towards the lamp. If this is inadvisable, as has been expressed, is there a way I could capitalise on this pre-existing source of electricity?

George - I've already tried the pull-through suggestion, but it seems that the wiring from the inside of the house goes to the rear of the cemented-in fixture, which in turn goes to the heat-proof cables I have protruding. There is no way I can do this - which is a great shame.

Now, from the advice everyone has given me thus far, a ground is absolutely required, as I knew it would be. I've had some time to think, and the simple logic occurs that the ground can, in fact, be independent from the power. If I can find a vent or other pre-made conduit through the wall, I could quite easily ground the lamp to any electrical socket (again, as suggested).

The other option is solar power. Sadly, the rear of my house does not receive much sunlight, so this isn't an option. I have also looked at battery-powered options, and they will be a last resort - but one I will go for if the other option is unsafe.

Thank you for all the advice so far!

Cobra

Phill
08-Sep-13, 08:36
I'm not just paying to have it done... I want to learn. .....as long as the actual installation is sound.So accept the advice and do it properly.
I could quite easily ground the lamp to any electrical socket (again, as suggested).If it's that easy to get the earth, pull through a T+E. Be sure the circuit has an RCD on and fit a fused spur. Or you could fit an RCBO in your CU and take it from there. Top tip: Switch the power off before you try anything. (or get a sparky).

mi16
08-Sep-13, 10:35
Have you checked the instructions yet, as I said earlier you used to need an I switched live as well as a switched live for PIR lamps therefore your existing wiring is not suitable.

Big Gaz
08-Sep-13, 11:13
How does a solar-powered light (with no batteries) work at night?

Get a bright spark such as yourself to stand next to it [lol]

secrets in symmetry
08-Sep-13, 12:26
If it's that easy to get the earth, pull through a T+E. Be sure the circuit has an RCD on and fit a fused spur. Or you could fit an RCBO in your CU and take it from there. Top tip: Switch the power off before you try anything. (or get a sparky).Wow! Can you teach us all to speak Sparky? :cool:

Cobra
08-Sep-13, 13:29
Right folks, thank you to those who have taken the time to provide me with advice (and the comic relief!) - it is, as always, appreciated.

Cheers!

Cobra

George Brims
09-Sep-13, 20:14
How does a solar-powered light (with no batteries) work at night?
I've never seen one that didn't have batteries. In the case of the cheap ones in my front garden, nasty cheap Chinese-made NiCad batteries that don't last long.

secrets in symmetry
09-Sep-13, 23:25
I've never seen one that didn't have batteries. In the case of the cheap ones in my front garden, nasty cheap Chinese-made NiCad batteries that don't last long.The description of the one you linked to on Amazon included the words:

No batteries, no cables, easy to fit

It goes on to say:


The Frostfire solar light uses a powerful 0.44W solar panel to charge the light during the day.

Perhaps it's powered by magic....

mi16
10-Sep-13, 10:35
The description of the one you linked to on Amazon included the words:

No batteries, no cables, easy to fit
It goes on to say:TPerhaps it's powered by magic....It will be an internal non user serviceable battery pack.

derek
10-Sep-13, 18:24
Please get an Electrician to do this for you! Before you kill yourself or somebody else! They dont do a four year apprentiship and go to college for nothing!

Cobra
10-Sep-13, 19:40
To all those that provided sound advice in relation to ignoring the existing electrical feed: thank you. I have now fitted the light with a brand-new and sound supply - and in doing so, drilled through the walls, fitted plastic conduit sloping down to the outside, and sealed it at both ends. It's all fitted up in as sound and safe a way as is possible, and to the highest standards.

This was, of course, made possible by a friend of mine who happened to be an electrician. Her advice spurred me on to do the job right, and to forget my concerns about drilling through exterior walls until I actually hit a problem...

So, I've learned how to do something new here, and properly. To those kind folk here who offered me good advice in a civilised manner, thank you.

mi16
10-Sep-13, 20:53
Glad you got it sorted out

Phill
10-Sep-13, 23:09
Goodo! When in doubt, drill big holes, and plenty of 'em. Can't go wrong.

secrets in symmetry
12-Sep-13, 01:10
It will be an internal non user serviceable battery pack.I was thinking along the same lines.

It would be a bit disingenuous though....