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squidge
05-Sep-13, 21:55
Has your relationship with people changed due to your view on Independence? I see lots of comments in other threads about this and I wondered whether it is REALLY affecting people's real life relationships with others.

How has the debate been divisive and what experiences have people had of this. Is the divisiveness real or is it simply something we EXPECT to happen but havent quite got there yet.

The online stuff is slightly different. Given that we really dont KNOW the people we debate with online is it really an issue if we fall out?

sids
05-Sep-13, 21:58
No.





...........

equusdriving
05-Sep-13, 22:02
no not in the slightest bit, for me anyway:lol:

golach
05-Sep-13, 22:09
Depends who falls out with me Squidge. But generally no would be my answer, with a couple of exceptions with those on the Org.

Big Gaz
05-Sep-13, 22:24
nope, life is too short to fall out with anyone......especially wee fat eck the hutt

Rheghead
05-Sep-13, 22:32
Has your relationship with people changed due to your view on Independence? I see lots of comments in other threads about this and I wondered whether it is REALLY affecting people's real life relationships with others.

How has the debate been divisive and what experiences have people had of this. Is the divisiveness real or is it simply something we EXPECT to happen but havent quite got there yet.

The online stuff is slightly different. Given that we really dont KNOW the people we debate with online is it really an issue if we fall out?

My relationship with others matters diddlysquat, a non issue. Matters of nationhood matter 60 million times more than any one individual.

squidge
05-Sep-13, 22:41
I can go with that Rheg but its being said time and time again on this board that this debate is divisive. So do you find it so in real life or not?

ducati
06-Sep-13, 07:45
So Squidge. You think after the vote the winners are not going to be trumphalist and the losers won't sulk?

On a seperate note, after the no vote the SNP will still be the Government for a while. I can see them going into meltdown and leaving us all in the do do:lol:

Even Chance
06-Sep-13, 08:02
Aye, I have had a guy give me some verbal abuse because he saw my YES sticker in the back of my car at Tesco's.
Being a Weeker mysel, he got a far more superior load of verbal back, but he probably didnt understand half of it anyway.....

I won't cown in my cornflakes if it doesnt happen, but at least I have the plums to give it half a chance to see if it will work out. You never know unless you give it a shot. And theres a load of my mates who are NO folks, but its their choice and I dont try to influence them. Im certainly not upset by their thoughts, and dont really care. Their my friends because of who they are, not their political beliefs.

squidge
06-Sep-13, 08:27
So Squidge. You think after the vote the winners are not going to be trumphalist and the losers won't sulk? On a seperate note, after the no vote the SNP will still be the Government for a while. I can see them going into meltdown and leaving us all in the do do:lol:You would think that the SNP had never lost a referendum before! Or an election or a seat lol Do you think that the result would be divisive in your relationships then Ducati? Are you finding it hard to maintain friendships with YES supporters that you know? B

outsidethebox
06-Sep-13, 08:31
Aye, I have had a guy give me some verbal abuse because he saw my YES sticker in the back of my car at Tesco's.
Being a Weeker mysel, he got a far more superior load of verbal back, but he probably didnt understand half of it anyway.....

I won't cown in my cornflakes if it doesnt happen, but at least I have the plums to give it half a chance to see if it will work out. You never know unless you give it a shot. And theres a load of my mates who are NO folks, but its their choice and I dont try to influence them. Im certainly not upset by their thoughts, and dont really care. Their my friends because of who they are, not their political beliefs.

I really am quite astounded at that cavalier attitude:

give it half a chance to see if it will work out...

You never know unless you give it a shot...

This is not taking up knitting, or test driving a new car. This is the future of the country you live in. What exactly do you think happens if it doesn't work out?

You may like to try russian roulette, after all you never know unless you give it a shot...

mi16
06-Sep-13, 08:44
The only thing about "giving a shot" to this is, once it's done its done.No U turn's

Even Chance
06-Sep-13, 09:16
I really am quite astounded at that cavalier attitude:

give it half a chance to see if it will work out...

You never know unless you give it a shot...

This is not taking up knitting, or test driving a new car. This is the future of the country you live in. What exactly do you think happens if it doesn't work out?

You may like to try russian roulette, after all you never know unless you give it a shot...

Why are you astounded? Because Im not full of political BS and made up facts to suit myself? Or because I have the plums to go for it?

outsidethebox
06-Sep-13, 09:23
Why are you astounded? Because Im not full of political BS and made up facts to suit myself? Or because I have the plums to go for it?

As I said if "going for it" is such a good idea give russian roulette a shot, using a traditional revolver you have one chance in six of blowing your brains out. Independence has one chance in two, and if that one doesn't work out it hurts 5.2 million people.

macadamia
06-Sep-13, 09:31
Re the actual thread "Divisive nature of the Independence Debate".

The debate itself is only another reason for an essentially divided nation to attempt to determine its future. The real division is between the haves and have nots: the low-level sectarianism: the tribalism by clan and geography; the embracing of incomers and the hatred of incomers: the left and the right: the nationalists and the internationalists: the articulate and the inarticulate.

The debate itself merely adds fuel to the fire of existing divisions. While envy, victimhood, jealousy, fear, and imagined grievances hold sway, the result of the debate will continue rather than end in tears. Under these conditions Independence would not be a solution, but an extra and unnecessary burden. True Independence is "freedom to", not "freedom from" - which is all we seem to hear.

Even Chance
06-Sep-13, 09:38
As I said if "going for it" is such a good idea give russian roulette a shot, using a traditional revolver you have one chance in six of blowing your brains out. Independence has one chance in two, and if that one doesn't work out it hurts 5.2 million people.

It wasnt you that had a go at me at Tesco was it? Same kind of attitude. Am I telling you what to think and having a go at you? No, I respect what you believe.

outsidethebox
06-Sep-13, 09:48
It wasnt you that had a go at me at Tesco was it? Same kind of attitude. Am I telling you what to think and having a go at you? No, I respect what you believe.

No, not me. I totally support your right to vote any way you wish, I am simply pointing out that for one of the biggest political questions likely to be asked of people in Scotland in our life times "giving it a go" "having the plums to go for it" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the idea of independence.

Naturally I don't really expect (or want) you to try russian roulette, yet the odds of harm to you by doing so are far lower than the odds of harm to yourself and everyone else in Scotland by voting for independence.

The only belief I have shared is that your basis for your decision is strange. I have stated in the other current independence thread that given the right information from the SNP regarding their vision for the future of Scotland I could be persuaded to vote Yes. However unless and until they provide that vision rather than the endless litany of lies and half truths and empty promises and assertions I am firmly in the no camp.

mi16
06-Sep-13, 10:15
No, not me. I totally support your right to vote any way you wish, I am simply pointing out that for one of the biggest political questions likely to be asked of people in Scotland in our life times "giving it a go" "having the plums to go for it" is hardly a ringing endorsement of the idea of independence.

Naturally I don't really expect (or want) you to try russian roulette, yet the odds of harm to you by doing so are far lower than the odds of harm to yourself and everyone else in Scotland by voting for independence.

The only belief I have shared is that your basis for your decision is strange. I have stated in the other current independence thread that given the right information from the SNP regarding their vision for the future of Scotland I could be persuaded to vote Yes. However unless and until they provide that vision rather than the endless litany of lies and half truths and empty promises and assertions I am firmly in the no camp. the Russian roulette analogy is a bad one, due to the consequences of failure. It seems that the problem you have is only with the choice of phrase used by evenchance, to be fair I can see where he is coming from even if I do not share his views.

Even Chance
06-Sep-13, 10:46
Aye, maybe my wording aint the best, I am a Weeker efter all! lol

I do have other reasons to back up my YES position, but I dont go shouting them around because I dont want the division of beliefs to get in the way of our country and the final result. I will live with the result quite satisfactorily either way at the end of next year.

Which way you will vote is entirely up to you, and I dont think that "facts" and figures that are often pulled from the ether and debated to death makes the slightest wee bit of difference to your regular folk. If anything, it just confuses folk.

Will we be able to survive after if the YES wins it, aye, I do believe we will thrive. Others may think not. Its entirely up to you...

outsidethebox
06-Sep-13, 11:27
the Russian roulette analogy is a bad one, due to the consequences of failure. It seems that the problem you have is only with the choice of phrase used by evenchance, to be fair I can see where he is coming from even if I do not share his views.

But it is not an analogy, on the contrary, it is simply a very good illustrative example of a know risk which gives far greater odds of success (i.e. living) than does "giving independence a shot" (i.e. Scotland thriving as in independent state) that no one in their right mind would ever take a chance on.

If Scotland does not thrive as an independent state then the consequences for every man woman and child condemned to exist in a failing state are dire. Look at what many currently face in the UK which is by most standards one of the most successful states in the world.

The breaking of the union is not something to be taken lightly, the consequences are permanent, it is not something that can be tried for a while and if found wanting just say to the rest of the UK, we made a mistake, can we rejoin. They may or may not allow it but even if they do I can guarantee that we would not get half as good a deal as we currently have. And the costs would be huge.

I have no problem with anyone deciding which way to vote for their own reasons, but the choice of phrase, if his/hers genuine position was something that needed challenged, not to change her/his mind, but simply as a reality check.

Without wishing to be patronising I am pleased to hear there are other reasons, and there is no need to make those reasons public. The way anyone casts their vote is a matter for themselves.

That does not however mean that the reasoning they do choose to make public cannot, indeed should not be challenged. That is the nature of debate. It helps to clarify issues, and point out flaws in reasoning and arguments.

But at the end of the day everyone has the right to vote as they please.

orkneycadian
06-Sep-13, 18:19
An odd question to pose. The very nature of independence is that is is divisive. It, if it ever gets the vote, divides up the UK and creates a division along the border. So if ever anything was divisive, then an independece campaign is it. All the other divisiveness that arises is merely consequentional, thanks to the SNP.


You may like to try russian roulette, after all you never know unless you give it a shot...

It seems that the pro's want us to have a go at Rushin Roulette. Rush in and see what happens! [lol]

Phill
07-Sep-13, 10:17
Whether you allow something such as this to become divisive depends on how small a mind you have. If you can't accept that others may have a different point of view than yourself then you're a bit screwed and need to grow up.

As for bickering about peoples apparent attitude to independence (or not), that depends on where you stand on the debate. After all the choice and decisions we make are in our personal, family and country's (or union's) interest. (Arrange these in the order that suits yourself.)
And to call their attitude may be wrong, to question their opinion and debate it, fine. But this is how idiots let it be divisive, they don't like the other opinion but rather than debate it, they keep the chip on their shoulder and start foaming at the mouth.

Lets look at the reality, if Scotland does / or does not go independent on Jan 1st 2015 (or whenever) will the sky fall in? Will there be plagues of locust? Will Arthur's seat suddenly erupt and swallow up Holyrood?

Life will go on, we will get taxed, we will complain about whichever Govt' (singular or plural) and the wind will still blow in Caithness.

So why not give independence a crack, even just for shits n giggles.





(it's only independence, not like it's Emmerdale or Eastenders)

squidge
08-Sep-13, 21:43
So .... It seems the debate itself is not divisive, none of us are falling put with the people in our real lives, none of us are losing friends because we disagree with their political stance. A couple of us are worried that, yes or no, the country will be divided but mostly we are bobbing along in real life without any trauma from the current debate. Im glad about that, that is my own experience and I wondered whether everyone else was at daggers drawn after some of the comments on other threads. The suggestion that the debate over independence is divisive between people, families, english and scots seems to be a bit of an overstatement. Except for one or two nutters.... The man angry at a yes car sticker and the woman that knocked over the old man in edinburgh for singing and speaking to people about independence.... Mostly we seem to be ok. Thats what I thought.