View Full Version : The enemy within ?
percy toboggan
01-Feb-07, 23:38
It seemed it was okay for Thatcher to describe coal miners as 'the enemy within' during the coal strike of twenty years ago.
Now, many feel we have a new 'enemy within'...... militant muslims.
The moderate muslims get plenty of airtime but their condemnation of 'terrorism' always seems a bit less than unequivocal. Like er... 'we condemn them ....but'
I don't feel convinced that this latest 'kidnap a soldier and behead him on telly' thing might be anything more than a government inspired smokescreen.I consider this New Labour lot capable of anything , so corrupt and shamed are they.
However, anyone who saw the C4 'Despatches' prog will realise there is a militant movement in us midsts which cannot abide the western way of life, and wants to change it at any cost. So what do we do?
Let it develop ? Combat it? How come a third of young muslims, when asked want 'sharia law' in this country? How come a third world religion is dominating our news and making some people feel frightened? How come these people always congregate to have a go at the Police and are so willing to adopt victim status?
Is it manipulation, and scapegoating by HMG? Or does the prevarication of so called 'community leaders' exacerbate the problem?
The coal strike was done and dusted within a couple of years. The one time enemy are now packing cakes on production lines, living on incapacity benefit or driving taxis. They were never the 'enemy' really.
This new threat though....who can say. Can you?
It is all part of a much bigger picture, but I would hasten to suggest that the way that many people were marginalized may be coming back to haunt us. It is very easy for us to think that they are the problem, and they may well be now - however the circumstnaces by which they have been conditioned were down to us.
It is all part of a much bigger picture, but I would hasten to suggest that the way that many people were marginalized may be coming back to haunt us. It is very easy for us to think that they are the problem, and they may well be now - however the circumstnaces by which they have been conditioned were down to us.
It's not down to me. Religious people have a world view that goes well beyond human reason. Young people strapping bombs to themselves are an abhoration in any language.
Percy's right. The Dispatches programme opened my eyes to the power moderate religious people give to the extremists.
Politics and religion do not mix whether its Bishops in Britain complaining about homosexual lifestyles or moderate Mullahas in Leeds claiming Muslim persecution.
Rope them in. Guilty by virtue of fantasy until proven innocent.
As I said in the opening sentence Gleeber2, its a muh bigger picture - and that is down to radical Islam. However people are driven to radical Islam due to many factors, in the UK I "THINK" some oif that may be due to the way some may feel marginalized.
I was not alluding to personal responsibility, more a collective society responsibility.
And Islam is a VERY political religion.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-07, 11:12
Not to mention an extremely hysterical one.
Not to mention an extremely hysterical one.
IMO All religions can be hysterical at times
I can understand your feeling threatened by the "enemy from within" (though I would say they weren't born with a terrorist instinct and something went very wrong in social terms for so many young people to feel desinfranchised with the country that they were born and bred in). However, I do think calling the muslim faith that of a third world country shows little knowledge of muslim countries and the scientific history.
Before you throw the names of third world predominantly muslim countries (Bangladesh, Indonesia, maybe Pakistan) I want to point out that every religion has interest and tries to establish themselves with strong footholds in the poorer countries of the world: Catholocism in so many african and south american countries for example.
It feels too much like you are imlpying that poverty and ignorance are the fields on which Islamism thrive. I would say that any religion in the world will try sow those fields, because when your life is a misery, it is probably only the promise of better to come that will give you any hope or joy.
Not to mention an extremely hysterical one.
I don't think we have any reason to be calling others hysterical.
Imagine a 9/11 every 6 hours for four years, that's what the people of Russia endured in WWII but in the West we get the worst case of mass hysteria the world has ever seen after one.
Tell the truth now, if you had been born a Muslim and you knew the truth and read the lies in the papers. If some of the 200 pilgrims murdered by the American airforce the other day had been your aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews, you read in the papers they were Al Quaeda insurgents when you know they were Shiia or that they were some messianic cult on their way to murder clerics when you know they were just ordinary families who made that trip every year. If you were a Muslim teenager in one of our inner cities and you knew all that wouldn't you be thinking about doing something about it? Wouldn't you be ready to take up arms? How much encouragement would you need?
Just last year we read in this forum about a foiled plan by Islamic extremists to blow up five airliners over the Atlantic by mixing together a bomb on the plane. It turned out not one of them had the means to do it, no explosives, no plane tickets, not one of them even had a passport. Experts say that to make a bomb on a plane is an impossibility, you need equipment, you need a lot of time, you can't just pour one liquid into another. So what was everyone so scared of? Some talk in an internet chatroom? Now we read in the papers about plans to kidnap a Muslim soldier and I'll say now what I said then, what would have been on the front pages if it hadn't been that? Top Labour Party officials being arrested and the charges changing from selling honours to conspiracy to pervert maybe? Who's throats would the British public be going for if they hadn't been given an enemy to hate? The public seems to have a need to be hysterical about something every morning I wonder what it would be if it wasn't Muslims.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-07, 13:47
I see what you’re saying but the comparison’s not right. Granted, the Russian people died in their millions during the war (and then Stalin tried to murder the rest right after, but that’s another topic) but that was in the course of a World War. 9/11 didn’t occur during a world war with the clash of armed forces “legitimately” pursuing their countries aims. It occurred when 20 or so terrorists with backing from a terrorist organisation flew aircraft into the World Trade centre.
I know from previous threads you prefer to believe it was actually an American government conspiracy to frame Muslims, but we’ll let that pass. To me, the people who orchestrated the whole thing are terrorists and I personally don’t believe the American government had any hand in it..
Tell the truth now, if you had been born a Muslim ….. If some of the 200 pilgrims murdered by the American airforce the other day…….. If you were a Muslim teenager in one of our inner cities and you knew all that wouldn't you be thinking about doing something about it? Wouldn't you be ready to take up arms? How much encouragement would you need?
Well, maybe so. But that goes some way to bearing out the “hysterical” nature of what’s going on. Teenagers and “young people” specialise in looking for causes and it’s part of teenage behaviour to want to fit in and do what their friends do. You know, individuality whilst conforming so completely you can’t see the join….
The difference between (some of) the Muslim population and the majority of people of British descent is that I don’t notice many Brits on the streets waving placards and demanding the death of Islamists. The funny thing is, the Islamists have already won and will control our society in this country within a few years, if they just have the wit to use the political system. Fortunately perhaps, many of them believe democracy is anti-Islamic and so reject the right to vote. Who gave them permission to threaten violence on the streets of this country rather than exercise their right to vote? And if they took that right for themselves, perhaps they’d like to go exercise it somewhere else. Like Afghanistan.
The difference between hysterical Islam and more “reasonable” religions is that Islam rests authority on the mullahs, who are free to interpret the Koran as they see fit – and do, in many cases using it to justify calls for the death of non-Muslims. I admit some fundamentalist Christians are far from pretty as well, by the way, though mainstream Bishops and Vicars round the country haven’t made a practice so far of promising Christian men the undivided attentions of 72 virgins in Paradise if they kill a Muslim.
Is there hysteria in our society? Oh yes. Whipped up and fomented by the media, who need to sell advertising space or time. Or in the BBC’s case, who have a political agenda. But hysteria in a secular society tends to burn itself out as people’s attention is diverted elsewhere by the need of the media to keep coming up with new stories. When religion is society, and society is religion, and media are controlled, the politically active can use the system to keep hysterical behaviours bubbling.
A bit like Big Brother, really. Lots of persons of limited intelligence, or enormous gullibility, running round getting hysterical.
What would you do with 72 virgins anyway - give me the attentions of a couple who have been round the block a few times anyday;)
What would you do with 72 virgins anyway - give me the attentions of a couple who have been round the block a few times anyday;)
Virgins who have been around the block a few times? Only Joseph would swallow that possibility ;o)
Apart from trying to lead people to believe that every other Muslim in the World is a homicidal maniac with a bomb strapped under their jacket, a huge knife tucked in their belt for hacking through people's necks and a web cam alongside the huge chip on their shoulder is their any other point to this thread?
The biggest piece of "scare-mongering" I have heard about the subject is the mischief making, semi-hysterical, bigoted post which started this thread and dressing it up as a subject for discussion does nothing to hide it's real intent.
I know from previous threads you prefer to believe it was actually an American government conspiracy to frame Muslims, but we’ll let that pass. To me, the people who orchestrated the whole thing are terrorists and I personally don’t believe the American government had any hand in it..
Not exactly, I'm in the "Allowed It To Happen" camp.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-07, 19:23
Not exactly, I'm in the "Allowed It To Happen" camp.
Then I beg your pardon for my misremembering.
j4bberw0ck
02-Feb-07, 19:28
Apart from trying to lead people to believe that every other Muslim in the World is a homicidal maniac with a bomb strapped under their jacket, a huge knife tucked in their belt for hacking through people's necks and a web cam alongside the huge chip on their shoulder is their any other point to this thread?
Wow, JAWS, is that what you got from this? Really? :eek:
It feels too much like you are imlpying that poverty and ignorance are the fields on which Islamism thrive. I would say that any religion in the world will try sow those fields, because when your life is a misery, it is probably only the promise of better to come that will give you any hope or joy.
Absolutely agree with you.
percy toboggan
02-Feb-07, 20:18
Jaws you make me yawn with your knee jerk 'bigot' reaction. If raising this subject is to be labelled a 'bigot' then what do I care.... How 'bigoted' do you rate hard line Islamists view of women and homosexuals. How many muslims would be happy for their daughters to marry a West Indian electrician? Bigot?? I barely scratch the surface with this thread, the intention of which was to get some debate going on a subject that matters. You possibly see yourself as the advocate of reason and smug self righteousness. In effect you are narrow minded and to be honest, people like you are a huge part of the problem in sensibly tackling issues like this one.
Ju: Say whatever you like as much of it makes sense. Islam, however, IS a third world religion it is steeped in dogma and damnation and any religion which requires slavish devotion to ritual & prayer is doomed to stay a third world religion. Of course religion matters most to people who have little else. That's entirely why Britain (Northern Ireland and a few rural pockets excepted) had become a largely post-religious society by the end of the nineteen eighties .
Fred : your final paragraph went all around the houses only to re-iterate what I myself had suggested in far fewer words. Brevity can be all in places like this, especially when interminably long and meandering posts make such little sense anyway. Conspiracy theorists are often loquacious fantasists.I suspect this of you.
Fred : your final paragraph went all around the houses only to re-iterate what I myself had suggested in far fewer words. Brevity can be all in places like this, especially when interminably long and meandering posts make such little sense anyway. Conspiracy theorists are often loquacious fantasists.I suspect this of you.
I was replying to j4bberw0ck's reference to Islam being a hysterical religion not your post, I'd seen that for what it was and ignored it.
rockchick
02-Feb-07, 21:15
It seemed it was okay for Thatcher to describe coal miners as 'the enemy within' during the coal strike of twenty years ago.
Now, many feel we have a new 'enemy within'...... militant muslims.
The moderate muslims get plenty of airtime but their condemnation of 'terrorism' always seems a bit less than unequivocal. Like er... 'we condemn them ....but'
I don't feel convinced that this latest 'kidnap a soldier and behead him on telly' thing might be anything more than a government inspired smokescreen.I consider this New Labour lot capable of anything , so corrupt and shamed are they.
However, anyone who saw the C4 'Despatches' prog will realise there is a militant movement in us midsts which cannot abide the western way of life, and wants to change it at any cost. So what do we do?
Let it develop ? Combat it? How come a third of young muslims, when asked want 'sharia law' in this country? How come a third world religion is dominating our news and making some people feel frightened? How come these people always congregate to have a go at the Police and are so willing to adopt victim status?
Is it manipulation, and scapegoating by HMG? Or does the prevarication of so called 'community leaders' exacerbate the problem?
The coal strike was done and dusted within a couple of years. The one time enemy are now packing cakes on production lines, living on incapacity benefit or driving taxis. They were never the 'enemy' really.
This new threat though....who can say. Can you?
Percy,
I read your post, and wonder what the average Iraqi felt, when the Americans invaded their country. A basically Christian country decided, not by democratic process, that they were better for this country than the incumbent government. Three years later...war still abounds, even if it isn't called war anymore. How would you feel, if the Iraqi had more money, and decided that Britain should be a Muslim (or whatever they call their system of government) country?
I think that, whatever we have to put up with, it is nothing compared to what some countries are having to put up with in respect to Britain foreign policy...and the Americans.
I doubt this terrorist threat is anywhere near as big as they make it sound...it sounds more like fearmongering to justify their actions to get the oil.
IMHO
North Rhins
02-Feb-07, 22:21
Dr Mohammad Naseem, chairman of the Birmingham Central Mosque, is comparing Great Britain with that of Nazi Germany’s treatment of the Jews. A trifle inaccurate I would have said. I suppose he feels that Muslims are being persecuted for their faith. How many Roman Catholics were piloting the aircraft on 9\11? How many Methodists blew up buses and tube trains in London? How many members of the Church of England hacked off the head of an innocent hostage in front of a video camera? How many Baptists strap explosives around their bodies and detonate them every day in Iraq killing innocent bystanders? How many Wee Free’ers mixed hydrogen peroxide and chapatti floor and tried to detonate them on buses? But of course we all know where this thread is heading don’t we? It’s an American conspiracy and Tony Blair is a war criminal.
Virgins who have been around the block a few times? Only Joseph would swallow that possibility ;o)
LOL - obviously fingering my QWERTY a bit too quick and missed out a wordie or two;)
oldmarine
02-Feb-07, 23:00
The moderate muslims get plenty of airtime but their condemnation of 'terrorism' always seems a bit less than unequivocal. Like er... 'we condemn them ....but'
At least the moderate muslims are not attacking us.
Dr Mohammad Naseem, chairman of the Birmingham Central Mosque, is comparing Great Britain with that of Nazi Germany’s treatment of the Jews.
Yes, a number of Jews are starting to say the same thing, with good cause.
http://www.graven-images.org.uk/temp/semite.jpg
Jewish Cemetery Aldershot
How many Baptists strap explosives around their bodies and detonate them every day in Iraq killing innocent bystanders?
How many suicide bombings had there been in the history of Iraq before we invaded?
None.
Was the desecration of those graves not associated with the Israeli attack on Lebanon? Were similar atrocious acts not commited throughout Europe?
As an aside. I saw a motor bike embalzoned with the swastika the other day - it was parked outside a major shopping mall in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The swastika has become the symbol of choice for many Saudi young men.
j4bberw0ck
03-Feb-07, 11:37
It's worth bearing in mind that the swastika has other connotations. I don't know why Saudis use it - is it really for the "obvious" reason? - but the German government nearly passed legislation the other day outlawing the image of the swastika in Germany. They relented when Sikhs and Hindus pointed out the swastika is used in their religious imagery.
Was the desecration of those graves not associated with the Israeli attack on Lebanon?
No, the photograph was taken in January of 2005.
There have been a steady increase in anti-semitic attacks in Britain, 2006 was up 30% on 2005, less than one in ten leads to a conviction. Meanwhile the government is rounding up Asians and locking them up without trial.
Add to that we invade defenceless countries to steal their natural resources and Britain is starting to look a lot like Germany in the 1930s.
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