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Rheghead
01-Aug-13, 08:34
Can anyone elaborate or investigate if it is an SNP front organisation or if it is real? I've not got full web access atm but I'm worried about the fraudulent accusations that are being levelled at the SNP. British sense of fair play an'all that.

golach
01-Aug-13, 08:41
Allegedly there is a modicum of truth Rheg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-23524348

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/snp-supporters-caught-posing-pictures-2111409

ducati
01-Aug-13, 09:18
It may or may not be a 'front' organisation but it is yet another example of waters being mudded deliberately.

Personally, I think if Labour (or any other pro Union party members) want Independence they should leave their party. They would if they had a complete opposite stance to any other party policy wouldn't they?

squidge
01-Aug-13, 14:07
Its not an SNP front. Labour for Independence was formed by Allan Grogan as a facebook page thingie. He is a long standing labour party member. It caught the imagination in true social media style and grew quite quickly. Quicker than Allan expected I think. He found himself spokesman and at the forefront of this fledgling group. The group was welcomed wholeheartedly by the YES campaign and so they found themselves included in many YES events. These events tend to have a higher number of SNP members because duh... Its about independence. If there was a YES event going on then someone would suggest "Have we asked Labour for Indy". However, it is true to say that their feet on the ground are small... This is often the case with online groups....lots of us "like" the idea/page/community but when it comes to real life stuff there is a small group of activists.

The pics which show SNP members "masquerading" as "Labour for Indy" members are simply pictures of events - YES events or other things like gala days or county shows where they have had a presence along with the SNP and others. The SNP are almost obsessive in their desire to include other people. Allan has never pretended to have a massive number of members and has stated often and publicly that LFI are working with the YES campaign and the SNP. Labour for Independence had a conference in the last couple of weeks and had about 30 people there. As I understand it they intend to campaign for independence alongside the SNP, Greens, Scottish Socialists and non party people. They will form policies with a view to offering a "real labour" alternative to the Scottish Labour party at the 2016 elections regardless of the referendum outcome. It may come to nothing but I have been watching this group with interest as a former labour party member.

Its not much but it is a start... To dismiss it in the caustic manner that Anas Sarwar has done says to me that Scottish Labour have no confidence in their own position... Or leadership... After all where is Johann Lamont? Allan has repeatedly tried to engage with the SLP but they deliberately ignore him and i think although I cant check just now that he and some others were banned from attending yhe SLP conference or from having a stand there. Like I say that might not be correct and ill check it out later.

Hope that helps Rheg.

golach
01-Aug-13, 14:19
Sorry Squidge, in my opinion your latest post is utter balderdash, why in the photos shown are there more "snp" members than labour for independence having their photos shown? The snp have been found out again.

squidge
01-Aug-13, 16:11
Ah golach, you never disappoint. To be fair if I told you that the sky will remain blue after Independence or that the tide would still come in and go out you would mutter darkly that I am speaking utter balderdash and say that the SNP are behind a great plan to put the earth of its axis.

The pictures put forward by Anas Sarwar show exactly what you say they show - more SNP members than Labour members because thats what they are - pictures of Labour for Independence working with others at a Yes Scotland event.

Why didnt Anas Sarwar use the picture whch was taken earlier in the year which included me and a couple of other women for independence - none of whom were SNP party members? hmmm maybe that one didnt support what he was saying. The picture chosen to accompany this story was on the Labour for Independence page back in December and was captioned - "“Lab4indy in Killie today campaigning alongside Yes East Ayrshire.”

The same picture was tweeted by Graham Barton an East Ayrshire YES campaigner with the accompanying tweet

"Big thanks to @labourforindy for attending todays EastAyrshire @YesScotland stall.” Again this was tweeted in December. So they had publicly stated months ago that this showed them helping out at a YES Scotland stall. Who else do you think helps out at a YES Scotland stall? Who else wears YES Scotland t shirts - Why..... SNP members. Goodness me - who'd have thought it?????:roll:

Lets face it golach - if being in a picture with members of another political party was indication that you were being controlled by that party then Alistair Darling would be a tory puppet to all and sundry - I dont beleive that is the case and it makes no sense to say so. The Scottish Labour party is a disgrace for a variety of reasons which are too long and boring to stick here. The quality of their opposition is dire and they should be ashamed of themselves. Donald Dewar would be turning in his grave.

Here is an exerpt from the Labour for Independence press release


"As more people began to support LFI we moved from a strictly social media campaign to a 'boots on the ground' campaign. We have been very proud to work alongside the great many volunteers of Yes Scotland who represent all parties and no parties. There are many pictures with LFI volunteers campaigning at Yes Scotland events and as such there are many instances in which non-LFI volunteers were pictured around our banner. At no time have we ever claimed these people to be volunteers of LFI.

I am aware that there are other examples of SNP members handing out Labour for Independence leaflets. We have never made any bones about the fact that we are a growing organisation. If SNP members are handing out our leaflets it is an acknowledgement that Labour vote is an important one in this referendum and they are willing to forgo Party politics to help us get our message across.

In regards to membership of LFI and the Labour Party. We have an Executive Committee, to be in this you must be both a LFI member and a Labour Party member. We believe this is important to maintain our ties within the party whilst seeking to attract non Labour members in the Labour movement....

Membership is open to all who are committed to an independent Scotland and the restoration of a real Labour Party at the heart of it. Members cannot belong to a political party other than the Labour Party. However, those who are not members of any political party are welcome.



So..............

Which bit of what I said is balderdash Golach and is that you calling me a liar sweetie? Surely not! I thought equus had the monopoly on that!

Oddquine
01-Aug-13, 16:29
Sorry Squidge, in my opinion your latest post is utter balderdash, why in the photos shown are there more "snp" members than labour for independence having their photos shown? The snp have been found out again.

The YES campaign is a broad church which works together for a vote for Independence.............we are the real "Better Together" Campaign....not that Bitter Together crowd of blue Tories , red Tories and yellow Tories fighting to keep their lucrative lifestyles.

Sounds like the UK NuLabour Party (Scottish Branch) doth protest too much and are doing desperate straw clutching..but I'm not at all surprised given the latest poll results for Labour in Scotland. How Unionist NuLabour hates the SNP which has taken their rightful place as the Government of Scotland. The LFI smear is a lot like the time Willie Rennie accused the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations of being a "front organisation" for the SNP and suggested its CEO, Martin Sime should resign, isn't it?

It is ,after all, the very easiest smear option.....accuse any organisation which supports Independence, or even thinks there is some merit in fiscal autonomy at least, of being an SNP front..and people like you will buy into it without thinking about why known SNP activists would be STUPID enough to be out and about helping the LFI, even sporting their rosettes sometimes, particularly when they know some Unionist will be there with a camera in a phone to take a photo...unless what squidge has said is correct.

squidge
01-Aug-13, 17:24
Allan Grogan is on Newsnight Scotland tonight if you want to hear what he has to say :)

Rheghead
01-Aug-13, 20:41
I'm not disputing that labour for indy was set up by a labour party member or whatever. But it seems to me that the SNP has artifiicially burgeoned its membership as it gives them great publicity for their raison detre.
Ukip was setup by a man who totally disagrees with the present ukip ideology and he doesn't recognise what it stands for.
It seems tome that the snp have infiltrated this group.

golach
01-Aug-13, 22:06
So..............

Which bit of what I said is balderdash Golach and is that you calling me a liar sweetie? Surely not! I thought equus had the monopoly on that!

I have never called you a liar, I would never do that, but I do think, what you and the yes campaign, are talking is utter balderdash, and I always will do.

Oddquine
01-Aug-13, 22:22
I'm not disputing that labour for indy was set up by a labour party member or whatever. But it seems to me that the SNP has artifiicially burgeoned its membership as it gives them great publicity for their raison detre.
Ukip was setup by a man who totally disagrees with the present ukip ideology and he doesn't recognise what it stands for.
It seems tome that the snp have infiltrated this group.

Would you be talking about infiltrating UKIP or LFI.....which group is it to which you refer? Do you have any accurate information as to the membership of LFI....or UKIP...as in how many are really members of the SNP and not Labour/UKIP but just taking the proverbial?

Come on Rheghead....explain whyyou say it seems to me that the SNP has artifiicially burgeoned its membership as it gives them great publicity for their raison detre. What, apart from articles by Unionists in the Unionist media do you have to prove that assertion...and to which group do you refer? ?

squidge
01-Aug-13, 22:51
I have never called you a liar, I would never do that, but I do think, what you and the yes campaign, are talking is utter balderdash, and I always will do.

Which bit of my posts here on this thread are utter balderdash?

golach
01-Aug-13, 22:56
Which bit of my posts here on this thread are utter balderdash?

all of it Sweety [lol]

secrets in symmetry
01-Aug-13, 23:04
Can anyone elaborate or investigate if it is an SNP front organisation or if it is real? I've not got full web access atm but I'm worried about the fraudulent accusations that are being levelled at the SNP. British sense of fair play an'all that.It's just another (very small) bunch of clowns that have have been drawn to Ugly Fat Eck - just like the odd few sensible people can be drawn to the most evil powerful politicians on the planet. They'll be booted out of their respective parties after Eck gets hammered in the eckerendum.

Oddquine
01-Aug-13, 23:21
Which bit of my posts here on this thread are utter balderdash?

Every one which does not confirm golach's preconceived (frankly irrational) obsession against the SNP and Alex Salmond? In other words.....everything you write which can remotely be twisted by him to indicate a pro-independence stance. Not a lot different to the attitude of the MSM and particularly the BBC, really..(and a few others on here)

squidge
01-Aug-13, 23:25
Golach How? Was LFI not founded by a labour party member?

Were the photos not posted on twitter and facebook as stated?

Are the SNP not obsessive over involving other people and organisations in the YES campaign?

Are there more people on the ground for Labour for Indy than I said?

Are Labour for Indy not planning on offering an alternative to the Scottish Labour Party at the 2016 elections?

Are you saying that these things are wrong? I dont mind if you are but if you are just saying I am talking rubbish cos you dont like it then thats not really fair.

Rheghead
01-Aug-13, 23:26
Would you be talking about infiltrating UKIP or LFI.....which group is it to which you refer? Do you have any accurate information as to the membership of LFI....or UKIP...as in how many are really members of the SNP and not Labour/UKIP but just taking the proverbial?

Come on Rheghead....explain whyyou say it seems to me that the SNP has artifiicially burgeoned its membership as it gives them great publicity for their raison detre. What, apart from articles by Unionists in the Unionist media do you have to prove that assertion...and to which group do you refer? ?

I refer you to golach's links. It is one thing for a member of a political party to be on one side of the debate, that is fair enough. But to pretend you are a member of another party is another. I don't see Alastair Darling pretending to be a Tory for the NO Campaign. SNP have been caught witheir pants down.

squidge
01-Aug-13, 23:27
Rheghead - who has been pretending they are members of LFI when they are not?

Rheghead
01-Aug-13, 23:37
Rheghead - who has been pretending they are members of LFI when they are not?

I refer you to golach's links. Photographic evidence.

Rheghead
01-Aug-13, 23:50
I can accept the explanation that the persons on the photo were some snp members at a Yes event who were showing solidarity with members of the labour party for indy. That is fair enough. But there are two photos at different events where all the persons are either snp councilllors or snp political activists. Non on the photos are members of the scottish labour party.

squidge
01-Aug-13, 23:52
Photographs which had been posted on various places Facebook and Twitter in DEcember which had said that they were pictures taken with YES scotland. The accompanying caption on the photo on Lab4Indys pages said "Lab4indy in Killie today campaigning alongside Yes East Ayrshire.” The tweet accompanying the photot on twitter said "Big thanks to @labourforindy for attending todays EastAyrshire @YesScotland stall.” Where is there any attempt to pretend all the people in the picture are labour for indy members?

Did you take the opportunity to watch newsnight Scotland? You can also email Allan direct or via the Lab4indy page or the facebook page.

squidge
02-Aug-13, 01:22
It is also being reported that the original picture was one of a number of puctures taken that day and that the picture included underneath all the names of the people in the photograph meaning they were clearly identifiable. When BT and Anas Sarwar used these photos as "evidence" of SNP infiltration they removed the captions and the names. Once again, if these pictures were originally posted with a caption saying they were taken at a YES scotland event AND the names of those holding the banner which anyone can click on and see who the people are How is there any attempt to deceive?

Rheghead
02-Aug-13, 08:56
Well I think it is dispicable that SNP were caught posing as Labour for Independence. Shame on them. Squidge, I'm happy that you can confirm that those in the photos are of SNP members otherwise I couldn't believe it myself. You never know what to beleve in this campaign.
I'd be mortified also if Labour No campaigners were posing as tories just to make itlook as if there were more tories for the No campaign than there should be.

I think it is really telling that no Labour members were in the photos. It just confirms what I suspected that the LFI is another front organisation for the SNP. A picture tells a thousand words. Unless anyone can confirm that the pics have been digitally altered?

squidge
02-Aug-13, 10:27
Lol lol lol disgusted of Caithness!!!!!

Do you know what Rheg..... you dont beleive a word I say - go look for it yourself. I have looked, watched the newsnight programme, seen the original photographs both on Facebook and on Twitter - seen that they were labelled and tagged with the real names of the people shown, read around the issue on both sides and been to YES stalls and meetings and seen the different people working together. When they work together at a yes stall they dont wear badges identifying them as SNP or Green or non party - they just work together.

Yet another load of fake outrage:roll: - pictures of people working together to a common goal clearly identified by their REAL names underneath said pictures. Well the world will end!!!! Rheghead - you just go on tilting at windmills - some of us will get on with being disgusted at things that are REALLY worth outrage.

If you need a list hon......let me know.

golach
02-Aug-13, 11:01
. When they work together at a yes stall they dont wear badges identifying them as SNP or Green or non party - they just work together.

I fully understand a few cranks working together at the yes stall. ......But why bring out the labour for independence banner and have a bunch of snp officials holding it up? a cheap publicity stunt, that has failed......... again.

Rheghead
02-Aug-13, 18:14
Squidge, you just don't get it, do you? You have a bunch of snp activists posing as labour for indy. This isn't about who said what who or what was labelled under what photo. It is about how tbe snp are eager to put on another cloak and make it look like that there are more folk out there who share yheir ideology above other matter which reallly matter. They will sell their granny for indy if its needed. The can' t be trusted.

squidge
02-Aug-13, 21:42
For goodness sake these are not official pictures. They are ALL lifted from individuals facebook pages and twitter pages and local YES pages. They are pics taken by people who know each other, they are tagged because they are facebook friends or all together members of local YES groups. If you have been along to any of these stalls or any yes scotland events everybody gets their pics taken with everyone else. Bit like reenactment shows actually.

These pictures have never been used in an official capacity... In fact the pic linked above was never used by Labour for Independence on their website or on the SNP website. It was lifted from an individuals page... Possibly one of the blokes in the pic itself. If these pics had been on the Lab4Indy site as evidence of increasing members or by the SNP as evidence of growing support then fair enough but they are not. They are pics of people involved in something they enjoy doing, pics which they shared with other like minded individuals and pics they tagged and captioned truthfully. Are these people deceiving anyone and not to be trusted? lets see. Anas Sarwar has looked around, lifted these pics from individual facebook pages, removed the the tags showing that people were clearly identified and the captions which identified what was happening and passed them off as if they were for a press release. Honest? Trustworthy? Todays Scottish Labour Party ....

secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 02:56
I fully understand a few cranks working together at the yes stall. ......But why bring out the labour for independence banner and have a bunch of snp officials holding it up? a cheap publicity stunt, that has failed......... again.


Squidge, you just don't get it, do you? You have a bunch of snp activists posing as labour for indy. This isn't about who said what who or what was labelled under what photo. It is about how tbe snp are eager to put on another cloak and make it look like that there are more folk out there who share yheir ideology above other matter which reallly matter. They will sell their granny for indy if its needed. The can' t be trusted.Indeed.

All secessionists behave like that, in my experience. They are so selfish, and so greedy for power that they'll do anything to try to get it.

There's no idealism here, nor is there any aim for social equality or national freedom. Secessionists are characterised by greed, selfishness and a lust for power that hasn't been seen in Western Europe since the early 1930s in Germany. Perhaps needless to say, the majority of the People of Scotland can see through secessionist selfishness, and (thankfully) the secessionists will be annihilated in next year's Eckerendum.

The People of Scotland will have their say, the democratic process will win out, the secessionists will be vanquished, and Scotland will once again become part of civilised Western Europe. :cool:

squidge
03-Aug-13, 09:58
And if the outcome is to remain as part of the Union then us selfish, greedy, power hungry folks will knuckle down and continue to campaign for a more equal society, a fairer and less divided country to live in. If the vote is for Independence where will YOU be Secrets???? Heading down the A9 .... Slowly lol .... as the average speed cameras are apparently going to slow the traffic down to walking pace.... Off to something better for YOU and stuff everyone else... Selfish Seccessionists? Aye...... Right lol

Rheghead
03-Aug-13, 20:31
Well squidge, you get behind the nations decision and make Scotland a better place to live in as there will never be another referendum.

I'm convinced that Alex Salmond's only concern is his place in history, his statue outside Holyrood and his power of a big fish in a small pond.

Scotland has become great within the Union. In fact I think it is the Union's poster boy. Great industry and social structures. An educated population which it sells around theglobe. It is place to be proud of. You'd be prepared to say it is worthless, embarrassing and something to be ashamed of, just to sell a story to get your dreams of independence realised.

golach
03-Aug-13, 22:01
Heading down the A9 .... Slowly lol ....

Squidge the A9 finishes at Edinburgh, why would Secrets stop there? If he did he would be welcome for a pint with me any time

Phill
03-Aug-13, 22:13
I'm convinced that Alex Salmond's only concern is his place in history, his statue outside Holyrood and his power of a big fish in a small pond.Never! :eek:

piratelassie
03-Aug-13, 23:12
The yes for independence is an all party and no party movement

secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 23:23
I'm convinced that Alex Salmond's only concern is his place in history, his statue outside Holyrood and his power of a big fish in a small pond.He won't manage that. He's on the rocks and he's going to stay there!

http://i.imgur.com/IwYWrja.jpg

golach
03-Aug-13, 23:28
The yes for independence is an all party and no party movement

EH, explain?

secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 23:36
EH, explain?Translation: it's a movement for gullibles and illiterates.

squidge
04-Aug-13, 00:51
Well squidge, you get behind the nations decision and make Scotland a better place to live in as there will never be another referendum.I'm convinced that Alex Salmond's only concern is his place in history, his statue outside Holyrood and his power of a big fish in a small pond.Scotland has become great within the Union. In fact I think it is the Union's poster boy. Great industry and social structures. An educated population which it sells around theglobe. It is place to be proud of. You'd be prepared to say it is worthless, embarrassing and something to be ashamed of, just to sell a story to get your dreams of independence realised.I
I have never said that the UK is worthless, embarrassing or been ashamed. i am not voting for Independence because I think the UK is awful. It suits you to say that I do just like it suits Anas Sarwar to paint LFI as a front for the SNP. Just for the record .... AGAIN.... Just so as there is no misunderstanding... Again. Here you go.

I like living here, Scotland and Britain. I am an English woman, a northerner a lancashire lass. I like those things about me. Im not ashamed or embarrassed. We live in a good place and we are lucky to do so but it could be better. I will vote for Independence not because I think the UK is worthless, embarrassing or something to be ashamed of but because I believe there are things wrong with the way Westminster governs, there are things wrong with the society we live in that adversly affect the lives of millions of people that Westminster are ignoring, making worse and about which our government does not care. Things which are affecting the great industries and social structures you proudly boast of. Diminishing them, choking the life out of them. I believe that only independence gives us the opportunity to change those things because only Independence gives us the power to make our own decisions, decide our own priorities.

As for Alex Salmond, well he can please himself, he can make little tin gods of himself and flog them on the royal mile for all i care because a YESvote is not a vote for Alex Salmond. I know you unionists like to think it is but really how hard is this to understand. The referendum is about who we want to grow, develop and deliver a fair, prosperous and truly equal society.... Us- The people of Scotland or Westminster politicians? If you want to vote for Alex Salmond you can do so in 2016. Ill decide who to vote for depending on their policies a bit nearer the time.

I believe a YES vote gives us the opportunity to do things differently and to make things better for this beautiful, vibrant place we live in. Changes that I have worked for, hoped for, campaigned for for most of my life. Scotland may have become great within the union but if that greatness is to continue into the 21st century and beyond, we need to be an Outward looking, independent nation.

Disagree with me? Fine. Think I am one of Golach's cranks? Fine. Vote no then. I dont care. Whatever the result I will be working for something better for my kids, your kids and all our kids. You do what you must to retain your beloved status quo... Including the name calling and the putting words into my mouth. Me? Im voting for opportunity and for change and for something better...

golach
04-Aug-13, 11:56
I rest my case, the LfI are an snp front

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/fresh-questions-raised-over-pro-independence-groups-labour-credentials.21774204

squidge
04-Aug-13, 16:26
Goallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll... .... was that what you thought Golach - I suppose you needed something to cheer after today's Hibs result lol ;)


LFI's response to this is here https://www.facebook.com/labourforindependence?hc_location=stream


As I'm sure most of you are, we are struggling to give a response other than... really, that's a story? While the Celia Fitzgerald news is... She was a member of Labour Party, didnt feel they represented her, joined the SNP but wanted a real Labour party back... Heard about LFI wanted to win back the Party (Labour she originally supported) from New Labour hacks...... Did the Labour Party ever complain that we were bringing in new members for them when they were collecting their dues?

SNP repsonse is this and its in the article quoted above.....


An SNP spokesman said: "If an individual chooses to join the SNP from the Labour Party, and then chooses to go back to Labour again, that is a matter for them. All this highlights is that there are card-carrying Labour members who intend to vote Yes in next year's referendum.
"Labour would do better to worry about why they are 18 points behind the SNP in the polls."



My response has already been made in the posts above but you know SUCH a stushie over this last week and they find ONE woman who has changed her allegiance and whilst the article says she had the aim of "undermining the party over the referendum" you can see from what she says that she is wanting a REAL Labour party to replace the appalling Scottish Labour Party. Well - I am with her on that. I have been watching this group carefully. As a former Labour party member who resigned a few years ago but who supports Independence I have not decided yet whether Labour for Independence are going to become a party with a remit that I want to add my name to. Celia obviously has. Good luck to her and to them - I might be adding my name to their members list if they grow and turn into a party who will be offering candidates for elections in 2016. But then I guess you would think I was a mole - an infiltrator....... Life is soooooooooooo exciting

secrets in symmetry
04-Aug-13, 16:37
I rest my case, the LfI are an snp front

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/fresh-questions-raised-over-pro-independence-groups-labour-credentials.21774204
This is from the Herald article golach linked to:


THE controversial Labour for Independence group (LFI), which is accused of being an SNP front, is facing new questions over its authenticity after one of its office-bearers admitted being a long-term SNP activist who switched to Labour just a few months ago with the aim of undermining the party over the referendum.

Celia Fitzgerald told the Sunday Herald she had been an SNP member since 2004 but had quit in November and then immediately joined Labour and LFI in order to agitate from within against Labour's support for the union.

An Alex Salmond fan who refers to "his Eckness" being a cuddly "honey" on her Facebook page, the 63-year-old former anti-apartheid campaigner from South Africa is now LFI treasurer and its organiser in Edinburgh and the Lothians.

The pro-union Better Together campaign last night said Fitzgerald's case proved LFI was a skin-deep Nationalist fake, not the important grass-roots development claimed by the SNP.
This is precisely the sort of behaviour I expect from secessionist scumbags. They want power at any cost, so they can impose their failed extreme-left undemocratic dinosaur ideas on the People of Scotland.

The sooner the secessionists are vanquished the batter. Then Scotland can get on with the job of being a proper and successful part of the United Kingdom.

squidge
04-Aug-13, 17:41
Secrets - your post says it was edited because you forgot important words.

Lets guess what they might be

"seccessionist Scumbags" ahh alliteration is soooooooo satisfying isnt it - especially when all you have is insults and name calling.

"power at any cost" Well lets see - if it was power at any cost then we would surely have seen armed and violent struggle. We have not done so and there is no expectation that there will be any sort of armed uprising - oh unless you consider the post referendum targetting of "secessionist scumbags" that you recommended on an earlier thread. what was it - hanging, torture, and banishment.

"undemocratic" How is it undemocratic to want a system which will mean that people in Scotland will get the parliament that it votes for? Wont that be a more representative system than we have now and wont that give us a more accountable system than we have now? Wont that be a more democratic system than we have now?

"failed Extreme left" firstly we havent actually failed at anything as we havent even got started on Independence yet
Secondly is it really "extreme left" to want a fairer, better and more equal society"? Is it really extreme left to want to identify our own priorities and spend Scotlands money on those priorities? By saying our own - I mean the priorities of the Scottish Electorate because it will be us - that electorate - that choose the first government of an Independent Scotland based on what our priorities are. In addition Those people in Scotland who support right of centre policies are not well served just now - we have an almost unelectable Conservative party. After Independence it is generally suggested that there will be a change in the politics and new parties which are unencumbered by the history will grow and this can only benefit those supporting right wing policies.

"Dinosaur" Backward looking, slow to change and adapt, outdated and slow. Do these adjectives really apply to the YES campaign? A campaign which champions change and opportunity, which talks about Scotland being a country taking its place on the world stage and making its voice heard to benefit not only Scotland but the rest of Europe? A campaign which talks about an outward looking, welcoming independent country? Or the No campaign, whose Too wee too poor too stupid remarks are an insult to everyone living here, who want to pull the UK away from Europe and who see nothing wrong with policies which are stigmatising the disabled and the immigrants? A campaign which tries so hard to feed fears and worries of people trying to make the decision of their lifetime.

"Vanquished" - the language of the crusades - bizarre indeed. I dont really know what to make of that.

Finally Scotland already is a proper and successful part of the United Kingdom but it can be a proper and Successful independent country if we secure a YES vote.

So important words indeed Secrets, and yet words is all you ahve - your comments are SUCH balderdash that I am starting to think you might be an SNP mole infiltrating the Caithness.org NO Clique - watch who you get your picture taken with wee man!!!!

golach
04-Aug-13, 17:42
Goallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll... .... was that what you thought Golach - I suppose you needed something to cheer after today's Hibs result lol

Thats low squidge, but what I have come to expect from you snp cranks [disgust]

squidge
04-Aug-13, 17:44
Awww sorry golach were your feelings hurt? Ach its only football!!!!! Isnt it?

golach
04-Aug-13, 19:08
Awww sorry golach were your feelings hurt? Ach its only football!!!!! Isnt it?

when a Hibernian supporter, one gets used to such minor set backs, and jibes from others less fortunate than me

Rheghead
04-Aug-13, 20:08
I
I have never said that the UK is worthless, embarrassing or been ashamed. i am not voting for Independence because I think the UK is awful. It suits you to say that I do just like it suits Anas Sarwar to paint LFI as a front for the SNP. Just for the record .... AGAIN.... Just so as there is no misunderstanding... Again. Here you go.

I like living here, Scotland and Britain. I am an English woman, a northerner a lancashire lass. I like those things about me. Im not ashamed or embarrassed. We live in a good place and we are lucky to do so but it could be better. I will vote for Independence not because I think the UK is worthless, embarrassing or something to be ashamed of but because I believe there are things wrong with the way Westminster governs, there are things wrong with the society we live in that adversly affect the lives of millions of people that Westminster are ignoring, making worse and about which our government does not care. Things which are affecting the great industries and social structures you proudly boast of. Diminishing them, choking the life out of them. I believe that only independence gives us the opportunity to change those things because only Independence gives us the power to make our own decisions, decide our own priorities.

As for Alex Salmond, well he can please himself, he can make little tin gods of himself and flog them on the royal mile for all i care because a YESvote is not a vote for Alex Salmond. I know you unionists like to think it is but really how hard is this to understand. The referendum is about who we want to grow, develop and deliver a fair, prosperous and truly equal society.... Us- The people of Scotland or Westminster politicians? If you want to vote for Alex Salmond you can do so in 2016. Ill decide who to vote for depending on their policies a bit nearer the time.

I believe a YES vote gives us the opportunity to do things differently and to make things better for this beautiful, vibrant place we live in. Changes that I have worked for, hoped for, campaigned for for most of my life. Scotland may have become great within the union but if that greatness is to continue into the 21st century and beyond, we need to be an Outward looking, independent nation.

Disagree with me? Fine. Think I am one of Golach's cranks? Fine. Vote no then. I dont care. Whatever the result I will be working for something better for my kids, your kids and all our kids. You do what you must to retain your beloved status quo... Including the name calling and the putting words into my mouth. Me? Im voting for opportunity and for change and for something better...

There is an old saying. And you agree that Scotland is a great place to live. Don't fix something that isn't broken. It will cost billions to get what you want.

You have been unduly influenced by your immediate friends and family who are of the Scottish independence flavour. I cannot blame you for that. Love is apowerful thing.

However, I also believe in loyalty. In the union, we believe in loyalty above all other things, not opportunitism. And it is through loyalty and unity that has made the UK the greatest union on the planet. We shouldn't just ditch the union when no net benefits are forecoming because that is political suicide.

piratelassie
04-Aug-13, 20:11
The quote is self explanitory, you don't have to be in a political party to support an independent Scotland or not support it.



EH, explain?

Rheghead
04-Aug-13, 20:20
The quote is self explanitory, you don't have to be in a political party to support an independent Scotland or not support it.

Yes and that is why there is a huge Better together campaign against the SNP who pretend others are in league with them. Even the green party left the Yes campaign but later joined withe proviso that individual members can make up their own minds. If snp members decided to stay with the union then they would be expelled.

secrets in symmetry
04-Aug-13, 20:29
The main problem with these secessionist idiots is that they don't understand economics. Many of them are brain-dead extreme lefties who don't understand anything, but the vast majority simply don't understand that a seceded Scotland would be economically (and perhaps politically) unstable, so they wouldn't have the money to do anything they want to do. In fact, they would have much less money than they have now, so spending cuts after secession would be far deeper and far more damaging than anything we've seen from George (the Cameron and Clegg rottweiler). Any half-competent economist could tell you that. Don't listen to "politicial economists" (i.e liars) because they'll tell you anything you want to hear.

Partan
04-Aug-13, 20:49
It's just another (very small) bunch of clowns that have have been drawn to Ugly Fat Eck - just like the odd few sensible people can be drawn to the most evil powerful politicians on the planet. They'll be booted out of their respective parties after Eck gets hammered in the eckerendum.

Puerile, repetitive, tedious and intellectually bankrupt.

secrets in symmetry
04-Aug-13, 20:53
Puerile, repetitive, tedious and intellectually bankrupt.Yes, those words describe the secessionists and your post rather well, although at least you're not repetitive - yet, lol.

Come back when you understand.

squidge
04-Aug-13, 22:16
There is an old saying. And you agree that Scotland is a great place to live. Don't fix something that isn't broken. It will cost billions to get what you want.

Oh well then thats ok, It is a great place to live for me, I have a job, a family, a roof over my head. Oh .... but look at my neighbour - they have just been found fit for work after an ATOS assessment, and yet they are still fighting cancer. And what about the person living across the road - they have been caring for their child who has additional needs for over 40years and are still fighting for every mortal thing they and their child need and now they are watching others in similar situations fighting in the same way that they had to do 30 years ago. Nothing has changed because they are not considered important by those who are "all right Jack". What about the person leaving the Broo who got spat on today - called a scrounger, idler and a lazy so and so. What about the immigrant sitting in their living room whilst a van drives past with a sign telling immigrants to "go home". It might be illegal immigrants its targeting but she got asked whether she was legal by some woman in the co op yesterday and doesnt want to face that again. What about those people using the foodbank and that child needing care - failed by their parents they will be failed again by a care system that is not fit for purpose. What about the people living in South Kessock who's life expectancy is 20 years less than someone living less than five miles away? Do you think that they think Scotland is the best it can be? Or that the UK is the best it can be? because these issues affect the whole of the UK - The difference is that there is some will to change things in Scotland and a potential mechanism for doing so - Independence. I hope that we would be able to show that there is a different way of doing things than that which is offered to us by Westminster currently.

Yes Rheghead - Scotland is a great place to live for me. I'm alright Jack and that might be good enough for you but it isnt for me.


You have been unduly influenced by your immediate friends and family who are of the Scottish independence flavour. I cannot blame you for that. Love is apowerful thing.

Ahhhhhh the old mysoginistic "lets pat the wee wifie on the head after all she cant possibly be able to make her own mind up" card. She must be unduly swayed by her heart, her hormones had her head turned by a handsome man. As if I was a girl of 18 and not a woman of nearly fifty. Im surprised that you didnt suggest its my "time of the month" or given my age It's because Im on " the change". After all you have chosen to play the patronising chauvenist piggery card yet again when it is so beneath you and demeans you so much.


However, I also believe in loyalty. In the union, we believe in loyalty above all other things, not opportunitism. And it is through loyalty and unity that has made the UK the greatest union on the planet. We shouldn't just ditch the union when no net benefits are forecoming because that is political suicide. Loyalty above all else? My country Right or wrong? What about people? Opportunism is not always a good thing but when it is the opportunity to do something better, to improve things for people to create and grow something fairer, better and more equal then it is worth it - it wont happen overnight - it may take years but its STILL worth it. Nothing lasts for ever - ask Ozymandias. The union has served us all well but it is no longer doing so. It is time to look forward for something better and for the powers we need to achieve that.

You can argue the costs if you like but no one except maybe you, Golach and the "no one knows better than me" Secrets in Symmetry:roll: is suggesting that Scotland cannot afford to be independent. Even David Cameron acknowledges that. Even without oil. And how much better could we do when we are spending money not on Trident but on People? When money that should be coming to Scotland isnt being spent on high speed rail links from London to Birmingham and London's sewage works instead? When the government we have has the priorities of the people of Scotland at the heart of their policy making? When money raised in Scotland is spent on Scotland's Priorities by a Scottish Government voted for and accountable to the people that live here and that make their lives here. Yes Rheghead Scotland IS a great place to live for me, I want it to be a great place to live for all Scotland's people and I believe that Independence gives us an opportunity to work towards achieving that in a way we cannot do within the Union.

RagnarRocks
04-Aug-13, 22:57
Just to attempt to redress the idea that the rest of the Uk is affluent whilst Scotland suffers . This is without doubt one of the most beautiful places in the world to live,the weather isn't the best but its never unbearably hot,nor Siberian cold a bit windy is the worst you can throw at it. I've relocated here from a town considered one of the country's most affluent,and yes whilst it has a swathe of billionaires and multi millionaires strung along a few miles of coast nestled a few miles down is a part of the town which has all the social problems you find here. The average wage is massively skewed by the millionaires the reality is lots of people work in KFC McDonald's Starbucks etc the wages aren't better than here but the cost of living and renting is obscene, there are still homeless the drug addicted and people who have had hard lives for whatever reason if nothing else the corporate boot is firmly on the necks of most of the town. The health service here is free down south I paid. I've found the services on par with my old local health service some differences but they balance out, drugs are still rationed due to expense, the elderly still suffer the same indignities, yes the infra structure may be better and broadband faster etc but the quality of life available here is better, the same problems exist down south as here maybe some are replaced with others. But I don't think even with independence you'll notice a huge change,the world is becoming smaller due to technology, but is more defined by trading blocks than national identity! which is waning so you gain independence but have to trade off to Europe. As a new member of the European Union you replace one not perfect but fairly accountable prepared to listen and compromise partner for a rather larger not particularly democratic and autocratic unaccountable partner. I doubt independence would cripple Scotland there would be teething problems no doubt but it would survive, yes gas and oil will help for a couple of hundred years it wouldn't be the end of the world it may well prosper magnificently. But at the end of the day what will really change England will still be there so will Wales and Ireland.Borders apparently they won't really change, pensions and health service won't really change nor will currency so its down to taxation mainly and whether you're happier having elected buffoons at least trying to work collectively for the whole lot or a more expensive bunch of your own in Scotland. I mean it won't change the south east of England's population density or strong hold on finance and business so when all is weighed and broken down its really much ado about nothing replace one bunch off over paid lying clowns with another non you can trust are far as you can throw them so is it really worth getting all hot and bothered about. In 100 years time it will just be The European Union and they will probably want us speaking French or German. That's allowing that the Chinese don't call in there debts and the future generations are barefoot in the flow planting rice to keep Beijing well fed .

squidge
05-Aug-13, 23:18
Oh well we just shouldnt bother then. Its just too hard!!!!!! You know i have maybe said this before but for a country with the thistle as a national emblem there are lots of folks that are feart of the jaggy bits.

golach
05-Aug-13, 23:33
Oh well we just shouldnt bother then. Its just too hard!!!!!! You know i have maybe said this before but for a country with the thistle as a national emblem there are lots of folks that are feart of the jaggy bits.

Legend has it our national emblems jaggy bits, were for defence, not for taking chances

squidge
05-Aug-13, 23:43
Defence of what Golach? Our Country right or wrong? Like Rheghead?

golach
06-Aug-13, 07:44
Defence of what Golach? Our Country right or wrong? Like Rheghead?

no-one knows, but legend has it that a sleeping party of Scots warriors were saved from ambush by an invading Norse army when one of the attackers trod on a thistle with his bare feet. His cries raised the alarm, the roused Scots duly defeated the invaders, and the thistle was adopted as the symbol of Scotland. Unfortunately, there is no historical evidence for this, but Scots, like other nations, love a good story. You choose squidge

squidge
06-Aug-13, 08:45
Its suggested it was the Battle of Largs lol. We did the linlithgow show with a great viking group called Carrick 800 and our fights were based on the Battle of Largs. The guys did show the Thistle legend as part of that. We are working with Carrick at Fort George Celebration of the Centuries this weekend and I think one of the fights we are doing is the same one... the other is a representation of skirmishes which led up to Bannockburn ready for next year. Not sure who is getting jagged in the foot this weekend tho.

Oddquine
07-Aug-13, 02:59
Times I wonder if pro-unionists suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

equusdriving
08-Aug-13, 14:18
Times I wonder if pro-unionists suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
and I wonder if pro-independents suffer from "believe anything we are told regardless if it makes sense or not syndrome"

equusdriving
08-Aug-13, 14:27
and I wonder if pro-independents suffer from "believe anything we are told regardless if it makes sense or not syndrome"

or the "vote for independence and fingers crossed, we might not be any worse off syndrome"
or the "we may end up the creek without a paddle, but at least we will be in our own canoe syndrome"

squidge
08-Aug-13, 16:38
What doesnt make sense equus?

equusdriving
08-Aug-13, 16:59
What doesnt make sense equus?

are you kidding? or do you mean other than most of the so called facts and figures spouted by the "rose tinted glasses wearing , anti English/British/Westminster chip on the shoulder" brigade" :lol:[lol]:lol:

and does this mean I am not on ignore again?

squidge
08-Aug-13, 17:41
No Im serious Equus - what facts and figures do not make sense.

And do you mean anti English or anti westminster or anti british or are you using those terms interchangeably to suggest all Independence supporters are Racist - and what chip on the shoulder are you talking about

Maybe if you are having difficulty understanding something then I can explain it to you. Thats all - maybe I cant but I hate to think of you as confused of caithness.

Are there real issues Equus or just boring tired old insults?

equusdriving
08-Aug-13, 18:27
No Im serious Equus -
so am I


And do you mean anti English or anti westminster or anti british or are you using those terms interchangeably well whatever cap fits, in your case anti-Westminster and anti- British
to suggest all Independence supporters are Racist there you go again, where did I suggest or say " all Independence supporters are Racist "

and what chip on the shoulder are you talking about Thats the woe is us everyone is against us chip


Maybe if you are having difficulty understanding something then I can explain it to you therein lies the problem, how can you explain, what you don't know?


Are these real issues or are they just the thinly disguised boring insults that seem to be all you post on this subject? mmmm funny how you spend so much time replying to them, I suppose that says more about you:)

squidge
10-Aug-13, 23:55
I maybe anti westminster although i try to be pro independence rather than anti anything. I am absolutely NOT anti british. That would be silly, I AM british, i will remain british if there is a yes vote, I am happy to BE british so Im not sure why you would think I am anti british. This referendum is not about nationality Equus, its about democracy, what sort of democratic government do we want- one voted for by Scotlands electorate, with the power and mandate to make decisions based on the priorities of Scotland - or not.

Equus i did not say that you said all nationalists are racist, i asked you what you meant, asked you to clarify the point you were making.... Sheesh!

What woe is me chip are you talking about too Equus, I already said on This thread that I am happy, that Scotland is a good place to be. I simply think we have an opportunity to be better.

I can explain what I know and what I understand, if you dont ask the questions then i cant answer them. Some things I dont know but I will always say if I dont know something. But you are probably happier just making pronouncements about my character than engaging in any sensible discussions. Which is a bit weird cos I dont think we have ever met so im not sure what gives you the knowledge to do so.

I do reply you are right. Not sure what more that tells you about me but tonight It probably tells you that we had an awesome time at the Fort George Celebration of the Centuries today. Talked to so many folk about medieval food that my voice is a bit croaky and Im buzzing so I cant sleep. And Why should i let you call me names and spout nonsense and insults without challenging them? Why would I? I wouldnt let you away in real life with saying some of the things you say so why would you think Id let you away with them in cyber world? But then you probably wouldnt say some of the things you say in real life.

Rheghead
11-Aug-13, 11:10
I AM british, i will remain british if there is a yes vote, I am happy to BE british so Im not sure why you would think I am anti british. This referendum is not about nationality Equus, its about democracy, what sort of democratic government do we want- one voted for by Scotlands electorate, with the power and mandate to make decisions based on the priorities of Scotland - or not.

"I'm British and I want a Parliament that is democratically decided by the British people."

I stuck with the subject of British in my statement whereas you smoothly swapped over to the subject of Scotland in the narrative...

I've seen this style of debating on countless subjects before.

like

'I've nothing against wind farms but...'

'I'm not against travellers but...'

etc etc

Phill
11-Aug-13, 11:53
Funny how there is a lot of clever wordsmithery over the semantics of, what is in effect, irrelevant detail.

squidge
11-Aug-13, 22:49
Its not completely irrelevant detail Phil. See Rheg and Equus would have people believe that this referendum is about nationality when it is not. The reason why I moved smoothly to the issue of Scotland is because the referendum is about Scotland.

My nationality is not at issue, i dont think i even used the word 'but' at all. I could be french, polish, indian or pakistani, it is immaterial. I would not have even mentioned it apart from Equus making his unfounded and nonsensical comments. My home is here, my life is here, I am invested in the place that I live, with my work, the voluntary work I do, my children go to school here and I love living here. I will still be British after Independence. Just like I would still be French, polish indian or pakistani. The referendum is not about nationality so the suggestion that by supporting independence makes me anti british is daft.

This referendum is about democracy not nationality. Rheg is happy with a Westminster Government, Rheg has alteady said that he thinks that things are fine so why rock the boat. That is fine for Rheg but it is not for me. I would prefer an Independent Scotland. Surprise surprise... Thats Not because I am anti british or in thrall to my handsome husband or because i am thick.

I welcome wholeheartedly questions and discussions and opportunities to ask and answer questions and yet, instead I have thinly veiled insults and patronising nonsense from people I absolutely know can do better. Its as boring for me as it is for others but i cant sit and let people say things that are not true. Which brings us back to the referendum being about the sort of government, society and democracy we want NOT about my or anyone elses nationality.

Rheghead
12-Aug-13, 00:04
This referendum is about democracy not nationality.

How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

squidge
12-Aug-13, 00:18
Ooooh much better Rheg. Much much better than the mysoginistic nonsense. Forgive me for waiting til tomorrow to respond but I know you will understand that after two days speaking to hundreds of people and sitting sleepily here waiting for my head to stop buzzing with the really good feedback we have had and with random medieval food facts, im a bit shattered. Ask me about the Bishop of yorks pie and ill probably be able to talk about it in my sleep but anything more is a bit beyond me until I have slept.....

ywindythesecond
12-Aug-13, 01:04
How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

Stunned. Absolutely Stunned
I agree 100% with Reggy!

I can understand why there is an emotional tendency towards an independent Scotland, but I cannot understand why anyone would want the current SNP leadership to be in charge of it! From the top down they are liars. If not personally lying, they do not dispute lies told under "collective responsibility"

nirofo
12-Aug-13, 01:30
How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

WOW!!! Rheghead, what can I say ?

squidge
12-Aug-13, 10:20
Somewhat recovered from the weekends exertions......


How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

I agree with you - the proportional representation system that we have is not really that - how can people end up with politicians representing them who lost an election. In addition I find it bizarre that those politicians who represent a list seat - so were allocated a seat based on the party they represent - can then resign from that party and yet keep their list seat. That makes no sense and whilst I applaud those politicians who have done this because they have a particular principle I would have been more impressed if they had resigned their seats completely.

So there is no plan just now for the UK to have a further referendum on proportional representation. We have the system we have for better or worse. If, however Scotland was to gain its independence then we could have the democratic system we want to have. We know that the Greens favour proportional representation, we also know that the Lib Dems would be delighted to revisit this issue again. We also know that there are organisations working on this issue like the Electoral Reform Society, to get an understanding of the sort of democracy that we could choose to have if Scotland was Independent. The current system was devised for Scotland by the UK government at the start of Devolution. We do not have to keep it. Independence is not the end - its the start. There will be many things that we will have the opportunity to change and your proportional representation is one of them. So after the Referendum you can vote for a party who have this issue in their manifesto and MAKE it happen. Cos as sure as eggs is eggs its not going to happen at Westminster.


So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

I disagree fundamentally that it is not about democracy. Scotland IS a country in its own right - there is not and never has been ANY political doubt about that - many of the most ardent unionists believe that absolutely and historically it was a country with its own crown and political system. You are right the referendum came about because of the failure of labour and the lib dems. You may not like the fact that we have the referendum at all but for whatever reasons including those you mentioned the Scottish Electorate voted for the SNP and the SNP made it quite clear that if elected they would hold a referendum. It wasnt a secret, it wasnt sprung upon some 'poor ignorant voter'. It was clearly stated that this would happen and so given that they achieved that majority they have a democratic mandate to hold that referendum.

But this isnt just about deciding if the democracy we want is Independence - it is about deciding if the democracy we want is a union with the UK. It might just as likely be one or the other. You can vote NO remember. Despite repeated attempts to make this referendum about Alex Salmond, about nationality, about a stupid historically inaccurate film, about one man's power trip or a bunch of lefty no marks wanting their "communist republic of scotland" it is fundamentally about none of these things.

The ONLY thing that the referendum will ask in September 2014 and the ONLY issue that the referendum is about is whether Scotland should be governed by an Independent Scottish Government or Whether Scotland should remain as part of the UK. That is IT.

To different people the answer they will give may depend on all those things I just mentioned and we see them here on this board as a microcosym of the whole world. We see people making decisions because they want a better society. We see people deciding because they have a dream of "pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia" ( Im not sure what that is BTW) We see people deciding because they think it is one mans power trip, we see people deciding because they want a republic or because they have a pathological hatred of Alex Salmond - those are all reasons to make your choice - based on what is important to you but they are not what the referendum is about. It is about the sort of democracy we have in the future and it is a democratic way of making that decision. That is a good thing you know - its the right way to go about things.

squidge
12-Aug-13, 10:30
Part two....


Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

We will not have the same political strength as the Union. You are right. Scotland will be a small country. Small countries do very well across a whole range of indicators. They are not drawn into the huge power trips of the larger countries. As an Independent Scotland which it is looking like will be a member of the EU and a NATO then we will have opportunities to contribute to World politics at a level which will suit our contry and our priorities. There is academic research which I have linked to previously which pre dates the plan for a Scottish Referendum which shows that Smaller countries have a greater level of involvement and influence in Europe on the issues which are pertinent to them; that smaller countries avoid grandstanding and get on with the business of politics - delivering the best possible results for the people of the country that they represent based on the priorities of that country. Scotland may not be a "superpower" but it wont be trying to act like one either.

As for economically being out on a limb. Well we are economically out on a limb now - we have limited influence on the economic levers because we have limited power to change them - we are however recovering slowly from the economic downturn. With the powers to change the economic levers then we could meet the priorities of Scotland and its people more directly. We could focus on jobs and growth and we could alter and change our benefit system in a way we cannot do now. If you are saying that we cant afford it then I disagree. Even without oil we can meet the costs of running our own country. I'm not going to say much more about this cos this post is long enough as it is. If there are specific issues then we can maybe discuss them one by one in a bit more detail.


That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I dont trust any politician which is why I check and recheck and recheck again to the minutest of detail and the boredom of the whole world what is said.

You are right to say that Scots and the scottish social influence has been massive and vital within the union and that is why I have confidence that Scots and the scottish social influence can bring a success to an Independent Scotland. I have no doubts about the ability of people within Scotland to be the best they can be and to do the best for Scotland. Independence means the politicians making decisions about what happens in Scotland are MORE accountable to the scottish Electorate - not less. Precisely because its ministers failures will have a full impact on us. Voting yes will ultimately give us a Government which is elected by the people of Scotland based on what the people believe are the priorities of Scotland. That government will be wholly focused on representing Scotland and delivering what is best for Scotland. It will be accountable solely to the people of Scotland and should it fail then it will be replaced by one chosen by the people of Scotland. That does not happen now, the Westminster government is not accountable to the people of Scotland the Scottish electorate has made little difference to the results of the Westminster elections. That means that who ever has secured power in an election would have done so without the Scottish vote whether Scotland voted with or against that party.

These last two points you make Rheghead suggest that you think that Scotland is too poor and too small to be a success. I am sorry about that. I do not agree that is the case.


I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

The SNP can sell the vision they like. There is no guarantee that they will form the first government of an Independent Scotland. There is no guarantee that the political landscape will remain the same. You are right when you talk about history but in doing so you gloss over recent history which has seen Scotland suffer with high unemployment, poor health and poor social welfare. You are absolutely right to say the Union has served us well. I have agreed with you on this before but it is no longer doing so. I love history, it informs us and it enlightens us but it is not all there is - there is a future too and whilst we should acknowledge the past we should also not let it hold us back. The future is ours too and it is for the taking.


No, this referendum is not about democracy

And here we are - right back where we started. I hope that I have shown you why I disagree - and that it is not because I am thick, stupid, anti english, anti british, carrying around some massive chip on my shoulder, deluded because of my deep affection for my friends and family or some sort of Crank as Golach so delicately puts it. I hope you can see that I have opinions and reasons which although different are as valid to me as yours are to you.


it is about a dreamocracy...

I hope so - without dreams nothing ever changes.