View Full Version : A9 to be fitted with average speed cameras
Green_not_greed
26-Jul-13, 12:39
The Scottish Government has announced that average speed cameras are to be fitted to the A9 from Dunblane to Inverness in order to improve safety.
I estimate that this may add 30-45 minutes to a trip to the central belt, depending if the cameras are set at 50mph or otherwise. Thats what they are set at on the A77 and that's dual carriageway all the way.
For one I don't believe that it will add much if anything as far as safety goes. There will still be all the "confusing" switches from single track to dual track sections. Vehicles will still need to cross the carriageway. Drivers will become far more frustrated if the speed is set to 50mph - making the Inverness to Perth run a little over 2 hours. Boy I am hacked off at yet another control measure from big brother.
Just wondering what the thoughts are of other orgers ?
just stop off in newtonmore or somewhere else on the A9 for food and that will bring your average speed down. Not that I condone speeding!
I use the road a lot. Dangerous it is, but not from speeders. I tend to stick to the limit and not many overtake. The danger is the last minute overtakers before the end of dueling or overtaking lanes, and on the none dualed bits. If everyone stuck to the 60 or 50 limit and thought ahead a bit, it would flow well and be a lot safer.
Having said all that, everyone complains and say to the gov. why don't you do something? well.......
Alice in Blunderland
26-Jul-13, 14:26
Having said all that, everyone complains and say to the gov. why don't you do something? well.......They are damned if they do damned if they don't.
While speed might be factor IMO confusion is the greater cause of accidents. It's time the road was dueled from Perth to Inverness. No more junctions, no more crossing carriageways, no more confusion for the increasing numbers of road users who have had little experience of the current road's ‘idiosyncrasies’.
macadamia
26-Jul-13, 15:33
Not getting pedantic about spelling, but it's interesting that if you spell it "dualling", it means doubling the lanes, but if you spell it "duelling" it means cars fighting on the roads. I saw one on the A9 last week (black hatchback) overtake several cars on a blind curve with a hill cutting off the sight line ahead. In that case - duelling!
How could the cameras be set to 50mph on a section of road with 60 and 70 mph limits?Want to dodge them? Take the glencoe road
the clue is in the name,probably about 45mph to maintain that as average some places you would have to over speed limit to make up lost time on stretches wgere your speed would be a lot slower!.
grumpyhippo
26-Jul-13, 21:15
Surely if the time you are recorded onto the measured region is correlated with the time you are recorded leaving the measured region gives you a time of less than the recognised speed limit for that region then you cannot be prosecuted. If this is not the case then you can behave like a maniac, pull off the road (eg at Ralia ), have a break and still comply with the the average speed limit.
So the idiots I see every time I travel from Inverness to Perth may get off scott free but the average person who pushes on a little bit will be penalised.
Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the old A9.........now that was a dangerous road!
It wont be one set (ie one at Inverness and another at Perth)of average speed camera traps in practice it will probably be a few sets or a chain of sets of speed cameras at the different speed limits.....so stopping at Ralia or Newtonmore as suggested wont help.
Plus if there is a chain of them you could get a speeding fine and points for each set....which could add up to a lot of money and a ban!
secrets in symmetry
27-Jul-13, 00:18
How could the cameras be set to 50mph on a section of road with 60 and 70 mph limits?Goodness knows. We both know that anti-windies and secessionists can't do arithmetic, so I blame one or the other....
Stack Rock
27-Jul-13, 08:11
Here is part of an article in todays P & J - Bid to cut A9 carnage with new speed traps By Laura Paterson and Alistair Whitfield
More than 100 average-speed cameras are to be installed on the notorious A9.
The government announced the scheme yesterday, claiming cameras at 40 locations along the Inverness-Dunblane route would help cut the number of fatal crashes.
However, concerns were raised that the move would actually increase frustration and risky overtaking on the road, widely considered one of the deadliest in Scotland.
North and Moray politicians and business leaders fear drivers will become more frustrated as heavy trucks are forced to stick to 40mph – the limit for lorries on a single carriageway.
In my mind, the single biggest cause of accidents (on the A9 or anywhere) is peoples decision making process. Speed is secondary.
Now if dickhead camera's were being installed we may get somewhere.
Of all the near misses and dangerous manoeuvres I've seen on the A9, I would say 90% are inappropriate overtakes or attempts at overtakes.
Put camera's on the dualled sections yes, but I suspect a huge amount of frustration on the single sections may possibly cause more incidents.
Potentially the average speed for the single sections could drop below 30mph. That'll be a boost for business and tourism in the Highlands! :confused
Recently travelled north on the A9 and joined a queue just north of Dunkeld. On open sections of the road I could see that we were about a mile behind a tractor.
This numpty eventually left the carriageway around Balinluig by which time the conga was about 2 miles long.
This type of behaviour is a real and frequent cause of frustration and accidents, however there was no sign of a patrol car to pull the guy in.
I reckon that police motorcycle patrols would also have a significant effect on this type of thoughtless behaviour.
secrets in symmetry
27-Jul-13, 11:43
Of all the near misses and dangerous manoeuvres I've seen on the A9, I would say 90% are inappropriate overtakes or attempts at overtakes.Agreed.
In some places you are supposed to pull over when there's a queue of five or more vehicles behind you on a single carriageway road.
Recently travelled north on the A9 and joined a queue just north of Dunkeld. On open sections of the road I could see that we were about a mile behind a tractor.This numpty eventually left the carriageway around Balinluig by which time the conga was about 2 miles long.This type of behaviour is a real and frequent cause of frustration and accidents, however there was no sign of a patrol car to pull the guy in.I reckon that police motorcycle patrols would also have a significant effect on this type of thoughtless behaviour.On what grounds could they pull the tractor for?
the clue is in the name,probably about 45mph to maintain that as average some places you would have to over speed limit to make up lost time on stretches wgere your speed would be a lot slower!.Really, I have driven that road in the dead of night and never had to drop below the set speed limits from Inverness to the south of England
Blackbird
27-Jul-13, 13:40
SPECS cameras, which is what they'll be, are only linked along parts of the road with the same speed limit. They cannot cover a whole road with differing speed limits like the A9, the cameras will be linked on the 50,60 and 70mph sections, not cover the whole A9. So if the limit is 50 you have to average 50, 60 limit and you can go up to 60, not have to try and work out your average speed for whichever part of the A9 you're on.
They are also only linked in pairs so one starts to time you and the second records that time and works out your average. It is impossible to know which pairs are linked and several pairs of cameras form a network to cover sections of roads with junctions where you could turn off. No guarantee, but if there's a stretch of road with no junctions and a pair of cameras then they are probably the 'live' pair linked together. Not all the pairs on the A77 are live but the others act as a visual deterrant to speeding.
The only way to avoid a fine is stick to the limit posted for that stretch of road. As some have said, speed per se doesn't kill, it's the inappropriate use of that speed and driver error that are the main cause of road traffic collisions.
Green_not_greed
27-Jul-13, 14:23
Goodness knows. We both know that anti-windies and secessionists can't do arithmetic, so I blame one or the other....
Hmm. Give up the broad insults and concentrate on the post, please!
I presume the reference was to 50mph. I agree that there are currently few 50mph sections on the A9. If you read the BBC article and also saw the news coverage last night you should have noticed many references to the A77 road. That's a dual carriageway, so one would expect 70mph, correct ? No -there are long sections now reduced to 50mph and policed by average speed cameras to ensure compliance. So my assumption is that there may well be sections of the A9 which are rebadged to 50mph on safety grounds.
On what grounds could they pull the tractor for?
On the grounds that they would like to speak to a farm worker...coincidentally, that might be for as long as it would take for the traffic to clear.
I expect that the police are fully aware of the danger that a build-up of frustration can cause in drivers who are stuck in a tail-back of this nature.
Thankfully, many HGV drivers already pull in when there is a large build-up of traffic.
billmoseley
27-Jul-13, 18:37
On what grounds could they pull the tractor for? having been a farmer for many years i was always lead to believe more than 10 cars or ten mins you should pull over and as i understood it that was the law
On what grounds could they pull the tractor for?
you never seen a sign saying. ..slow moving vehicles please allow overtaking..??
A tractor on the road does not prevent anyone from overtaking, in fact to allow overtaking they must be on the road as if they pulled into a layby there would be nothing to overtake.
you never seen a sign saying. ..slow moving vehicles please allow overtaking..??
Plenty of signs on the A9 saying something like; use laybys to allow traffic to clear.
The often talked about upgrading of the road needs to be financed so that's the reason for the cameras, it's sod all to do with safety or the cameras would have been installed long ago; and if road is ever upgraded to dual carriageway over its whole length then I believe the cameras would need to be removed if they are placed at sections which are subsequently upgraded because they can only be sited at sections which are proven accident sites, a 'new' section of road shouldn't have any accident statistics, making any speed related fine unenforcable.
Plenty of signs on the A9 saying something like; use laybys to allow traffic to clear. There are also ones saying check your fuel, that is not law.Good practice maybe but not law.
North and Moray politicians and business leaders fear drivers will become more frustrated as heavy trucks are forced to stick to 40mph – the limit for lorries on a single carriageway.I find this outrageous, suggesting that HGV's will be "forced" to stick to the statutory speed limits.They should be sticking to the limits as a matter of course but how many times do you see HGV's sitting on the 56mph limiter on a roads. It's extremely rare that I come across one travelling at 40 yet the police seem to ignore.
The often talked about upgrading of the road needs to be financed so that's the reason for the cameras, it's sod all to do with safety or the cameras would have been installed long ago; and if road is ever upgraded to dual carriageway over its whole length then I believe the cameras would need to be removed if they are placed at sections which are subsequently upgraded because they can only be sited at sections which are proven accident sites, a 'new' section of road shouldn't have any accident statistics, making any speed related fine unenforcable.
No Jox you don't get it. This will be instead of upgrading the road.
You're probably right Ducati :-/
There doesnt appear to be any attempt to step away from the commitment to dual the A9. The Transport Secretary said this will make immediate improvements whilst work continues for dualling the A9. Its interesting to read also that the average speed cameras on the A77 have been credited with reducing fatal accidents by 46% and serious ones by 35% since they were installed in 2005. Id like some of those stats on the A9 thankyou very much.
There are also ones saying check your fuel, that is not law.Good practice maybe but not law.
Time to get the head deeper in the sand eh?
There are also ones saying check your fuel, that is not law.Good practice maybe but not law.
In some country s,,. i/e.,, Australia it is an offence to run out of fuel on the highway.
Anyway, i dont see what all the fuss is about speed camera s, if one is correctly obeying the road rules & keeping within the proper speed limit s , whats the problem.??.. i know of folk flounting the speed limit , leaving Inverness the same time as me,, driving like a nutter up the road to Wick ,bragging they done the distance in x amount time. And me telling him i was only 15 minutes behind him . crazy and for what ..15 minutes or so .
Time to get the head deeper in the sand eh?Care to elaborate?
In some country s,,. i/e.,, Australia it is an offence to run out of fuel on the highway.You do realise this is the uk don't you?
In some countries it is illegal to kiss in public if not married and in others it is legal to drive at 200mph
The often talked about upgrading of the road needs to be financed so that's the reason for the cameras, it's sod all to do with safety or the cameras would have been installed long ago; and if road is ever upgraded to dual carriageway over its whole length then I believe the cameras would need to be removed if they are placed at sections which are subsequently upgraded because they can only be sited at sections which are proven accident sites, a 'new' section of road shouldn't have any accident statistics, making any speed related fine unenforcable. I've never had a problem with speed cameras of any kind... Because I don't speed. They only take money from lawbreakers, I'm happy with that.
secrets in symmetry
28-Jul-13, 19:30
I've never had a problem with speed cameras of any kind... Because I don't speed. They only take money from lawbreakers, I'm happy with that.Me too.
Welcome back. I hope you've been somewhere good, or doing something cool.
I've never had a problem with speed cameras of any kind... Because I don't speed. They only take money from lawbreakers, I'm happy with that.
Me too.
Welcome back. I hope you've been somewhere good, or doing something cool.
Jings, you guys! What beacons of light in a dark world.
Thank you, you are a blessing to us all.
The rest of us out here just wish we could maintain the high standards that you demonstrate to us all.
Thank you again, really and truly.
Jings, you guys! What beacons of light in a dark world.Thank you, you are a blessing to us all. The rest of us out here just wish we could maintain the high standards that you demonstrate to us all.Thank you again, really and truly.They do have a point, the SPECS cameras will only concern you if you break the law.
ywindythesecond
29-Jul-13, 00:51
The often talked about upgrading of the road needs to be financed so that's the reason for the cameras, it's sod all to do with safety or the cameras would have been installed long ago; and if road is ever upgraded to dual carriageway over its whole length then I believe the cameras would need to be removed if they are placed at sections which are subsequently upgraded because they can only be sited at sections which are proven accident sites, a 'new' section of road shouldn't have any accident statistics, making any speed related fine unenforcable.
Eh?
Sorry, don't understand.
I see the journey rather than the destination as the worthwhile part of my life. Savour it while it lasts. Speed cameras remind me that there people out there who wish to dismiss a wonderful experience of travelling through bonny Scotland
If wee "Eck the Hutt" gets his way and we are all cut off from the rest of civilisation, i reckon every Scottish road will have cameras! and in every town there will be parking cameras, litter cameras, smoking cameras, dog fouling cameras etc etc.......he's got to get revenue in somehow y'know.....
You do realise this is the uk don't you?
In some countries it is illegal to kiss in public if not married and in others it is legal to drive at 200mph
Always obey the Mali laws.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12363852
Jings, you guys! What beacons of light in a dark world.Thank you, you are a blessing to us all. The rest of us out here just wish we could maintain the high standards that you demonstrate to us all.Thank you again, really and truly.Sticking to the speed limit is incredibly easy.
Sticking to the speed limit is incredibly easy.
Oh, oobee doo
I wanna be like you oo oo
I wanna walk like you
Talk like you, too
You'll see it's true
An ape like me
Can learn to be human too
Oh, oobee dooI wanna be like you oo oo I wanna walk like youTalk like you, tooYou'll see it's trueAn ape like meCan learn to be human tooLet us know when your intelligence has evolved to the same level as the rest of us and then we'll teach you how to drive. Meanwhile this is for you (http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forums/image_zps6b585561.jpg).
Green_not_greed
29-Jul-13, 19:03
Sticking to the speed limit is incredibly easy.
I agree - and usually do! My concern isn't the cameras, its that much of the road may have its speed reduced. If It stays as it is then I would be a lot happier.
secrets in symmetry
29-Jul-13, 21:29
Sticking to the speed limit is incredibly easy.Indeed it is.
Perhaps we should explain to the speeders how it's done, or perhaps even give a demo. :cool:
Let us know when your intelligence has evolved to the same level as the rest of us and then we'll teach you how to drive. Meanwhile this is for you (http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q672/Forumstufftoo/Forums/image_zps6b585561.jpg).I concur......
All Hail the holier-than-thou Trinity - Secrets in symmetry, Flynn and mi16.
Blessed are the perfect for they will inherit smug self-satisfaction.
Iv'e had it for this thread; I'm blinded by your glory!
Dinnea worry, I'm carrying 3 points for 'em!
Dinnea worry, I'm carrying 3 points for 'em!Got 5 of my own
All Hail the holier-than-thou Trinity - Secrets in symmetry, Flynn and mi16.Blessed are the perfect for they will inherit smug self-satisfaction.Iv'e had it for this thread; I'm blinded by your glory!Don't let the door smack you behind on the way out.
Don't let the door smack you behind on the way out.I'm sure he'll learn his lesson the day he kills someone with his dangerous driving. Sadly by then it'll be too late.
secrets in symmetry
30-Jul-13, 21:13
Dinnea worry, I'm carrying 3 points for 'em!
Got 5 of my own
Don't worry guys, I'll be a model driver for you. I don't have any points, nor have I ever had any. :cool:
HGV drivers protest at being forced to obey the law by ... obeying the law.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/lorry-drivers-plan-roadblock-protest-on-a9-1-3029149
Pathetic petulant foot stamping.
secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 13:03
Lol! Well spotted Flynn.
As an aside...
Why do HGVs have such a low speed limit on single-carriageway roads? I would have thought 50mph would be ok.
Lol! Well spotted Flynn.As an aside...Why do HGVs have such a low speed limit on single-carriageway roads? I would have thought 50mph would be ok.Ever been on a bicycle on a single carriageway road and had an HGV pass you at 50mph? If the pass is too close you're sucked into the side of it, or under the wheels, or into the path of following vehicles. Same with pedestrians. That's why.
secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 16:44
Ever been on a bicycle on a single carriageway road and had an HGV pass you at 50mph? If the pass is too close you're sucked into the side of it, or under the wheels, or into the path of following vehicles. Same with pedestrians. That's why.Perhaps 40mph is indeed a sensible default for single carriageway roads, but you could I think safely have a 50mph speed limit on a wide open road like the A9.
£2.5 Million?
Would it not be cheaper & easier to just paint more arrows on the road to help avoid the confusion some seem to suffer with a road that constantly switches between duel & single carriageway?
Green_not_greed
06-Aug-13, 18:39
£2.5 Million?
Would it not be cheaper & easier to just paint more arrows on the road to help avoid the confusion some seem to suffer with a road that constantly switches between duel & single carriageway?
Agreed ! Having been up and down the A90 this week between Dundee and Aberdeen, I see its fitted with lots of fixed speed cameras. That works fine and most cars just cruise along under the speed limit. The road is all dual carriageway and 70mph bar one short stretch past a junction at 50mph. For me that would be far preferable and most cost-effective for the A9 than use of average speed cameras.
Agreed ! Having been up and down the A90 this week between Dundee and Aberdeen, I see its fitted with lots of fixed speed cameras. That works fine and most cars just cruise along under the speed limit. The road is all dual carriageway and 70mph bar one short stretch past a junction at 50mph. For me that would be far preferable and most cost-effective for the A9 than use of average speed cameras.My preferred option would be an unrestricted stretch of 3 lane motorway from Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh
Green_not_greed
06-Aug-13, 21:45
My preferred option would be an unrestricted stretch of 3 lane motorway from Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh
Unfortunately on planet Earth that's not an option! Even the major motorways between central belt cities are 2 lanes each way.
Unfortunately on planet Earth that's not an option! Even the major motorways between central belt cities are 2 lanes each way.There are plenty 3 lane motorways in the UK.Anyhow no point in debating any options the SPECS system has been rubber stamped and that is that.
Had a wee trundle up and down the A9 today. Heading South we witnessed one woman make 4 outrageous overtaking manoeuvres, each time having to force herself back into the line of traffic narrowly escaping head on collisions. We were travelling 40 to 48 in a 60 zone.
Heading back North I had to slam on to avoid a head on going round a bend, vehicle in my lane on a blind bend overtaking in a 30 zone. (they may have been exceeding 30)
It's dickhead cameras we need, but, been saying this for years.
Had a wee trundle up and down the A9 today. Heading South we witnessed one woman make 4 outrageous overtaking manoeuvres, each time having to force herself back into the line of traffic narrowly escaping head on collisions. We were travelling 40 to 48 in a 60 zone.
Heading back North I had to slam on to avoid a head on going round a bend, vehicle in my lane on a blind bend overtaking in a 30 zone. (they may have been exceeding 30)
It's dickhead cameras we need, but, been saying this for years.
Was this on the future SPECS stretch or north of Inverness?
North of Inverness this time, however typical of the sort of thing witnessed on single sections Inverness to Perth.
In my experience, if you impove the road then you just encourage more people to use it then it requires another improvement. Is improving roads really a sensible option?
Depends how many dead people you want I suppose.
In my experience, if you impove the road then you just encourage more people to use it then it requires another improvement. Is improving roads really a sensible option?
Hmm interesting theory there, lets dig up the roads and go back to cart tracks.
Eh? Sorry, don't understand.Traffic management cameras can only be sited where there is higher than average number of accidents so for them to be installed on the A9 there must be a record of accident statistics which allows those in charge to do so. However, if the road is subsequently upgraded to dual carriageway it become a 'new' road and there will not be sufficient statistical data recorded to continue the use of the cameras in that area, therefore they would have to be removed.
SPECS on dual sections aren't really an issue. But I am dubious as to any real benefit on the single sections where we'll see more HGV's topping out at 40 MPH etc. Whilst speed is often a contributory factor in the resulting accidents, often the cause is poor decision making prior to a manoeuvre, usually an overtaking move on single carriageway.
I would expect the SPECS cameras to pretty much eliminate overtaking making it much safer, although it will be a bit tedious playing follow the leader from Inverness to Perth.
The glorious A9 yesterday. Think we were getting 28Mph here. Lost count of the number of mental suicidal manoeuvres.
http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy337/Phill_Rawlins/A9_zpsd8eddcf0.jpg
SPECS themselves probably wouldn't be an issue. The overall average speed often comes out well below 60 if the whole length is taken into account. A lot will depend on how SPECS details HGV's and over what sections the average is taken into account.
Stopping numpties trying to expand the laws of physics is another issue.
I'd like to know how you were taking those photo's without dropping your fag and spilling your coffee?
I'd like to know how you were taking those photo's without dropping your fag and spilling your coffee?
Ii dunno Phill, you have some serious driving skill set what with driving a car, drinking coffee, smoking a ciggie AND managing to take pics making it look like you were in the passenger seat too!
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