View Full Version : He's at it again!
Apparently Mr Salmond has affirmed that NS Oil will be worth £350k to every man women and child in Scotland. The response from a multitude of quarters ? Complete Ballcocks! :lol:
I even took my socks off but could n't work out the mathematics of that either.
macadamia
23-Jul-13, 21:36
You need to buy a Brigadoon abacus. You run the beads along one row, and they reappear on the second row, all the way down to the bottom row, when they are pushed back up to the top. That way what you're counting (the money) never runs out. You can buy the Brigadoon abacus at the "Bide a Wee" SNP Olde William Wallace Gifte Shoppe. It will revolutionise your housekeeping! Trust me!
Here we go again lol
As I see it ........
What he said was and I quote - "We accept the industry forecast of 24 billion barrels...... we put forward a reasonable estimate of !00 dollars per barrel. "
This gives a figure of 2400000000000 Dollars.
"The remaining value of the resource is 1.5 Trillion pounds - to put it into everyday terms £300 000 for every man woman and child in Scotland."
Using an exchange rate of 0.6502 you get a figure of £1560480000000 Rounded down thats 1.5 trillion Pounds.
1.5 trillion =1500000000000
divided by
Population - 5.2 million = 5200000
Equals 288461.5384615385.
Which is rounded up to 300 000 for every man woman and child in Scotland.
Now if I have mis typed the number of zeros I apologise but you can do your own calculations if you like and Ill be pleased to see them if they show something different. I try really hard to understand this stuff but I accept that I might not be right.
I also accept that the rounding could cause an error although maybe not as big a one as underestimating the amount of oil by 6 billion barrels might do.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/uk-government-misplaces-six-billion-barrels-of-oil/
Professor Kemp (https://www.abdn.ac.uk/business/profiles/a.g.kemp), who is seen internationally as one of the world’s leading experts, says that “the oil production figures produced by The Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR) were six billion barrels fewer than he would expect”.
Professor Kemp, whom I interviewed last week, is keen to stress that he is politically neutral but wants to make sure people have access to the facts about North Sea production.
..............
The Scottish Government’s predictions are in line with the industry’s on oil production and the Norwegian Government’s for oil prices (but way below the prices predicted by the equally well respected OECD). Even conservative academic forecasters say the UK government is undervaluing North Sea oil by thousands of millions of barrels, so it is a reasonable conclusion that the OBR figure is either incompetent or deliberately misleading.
Scotland’s economic success does not rely on oil, its a bonus, and if we take control of it and invest properly we can not only improve Scotland’s economic prospects today but also ensure a balanced sustainable economy in the future.
Squidge
How dare you put up points in favour of Indy and not accepting Project Fear. You deserve all of the abuse that will be poured down on you
Lol Gerry
Im sure I wont get abuse mostly people are just nice. :lol: I just share my point of view thats all.
Squidge
How dare you put up points in favour of Indy and not accepting Project Fear. You deserve all of the abuse that will be poured down on you
I would never abuse Squidge for her beliefs.......but I do sigh a lot, then laugh at her naivety [lol]
secrets in symmetry
23-Jul-13, 22:56
Now that the secessionists' lies, greed and downright selfishness have been exposed so often in open democratic discussions, I find it staggering that some desperate people are still dumb enough to support secession....
??????????????????????????????
Lol .....maybe I was wrong about the abuse......
Liar
Greedy
Selfish
Desperate................
Im never sure whether Secrets is talking about me in particular or just making general observations on the off chance that they stick to me or others. Whatever.... he posts utter rubbish as usual.
Golach lol - how is it naive to establish whether a post is true (Ducati) and then look at whether the maths works out in response to another post (Lizz). I took no notice of macademia because after a bit of respite we are back to the nonsensical ridicule which they favour on this subject.
ywindythesecond
23-Jul-13, 23:32
Apparently Mr Salmond has affirmed that NS Oil will be worth £350k to every man women and child in Scotland. The response from a multitude of quarters ? Complete Ballcocks! :lol:
Hang on a bit. Just exactly what did Mr Salmond affirm?
Apparently Mr Salmond has affirmed that NS Oil will be worth £350k to every man women and child in Scotland. The response from a multitude of quarters ? Complete Ballcocks! :lol:
So produce figures to prove him wrong...which, on past performance will definitely not be the OBR forecasts.......but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.....and certainly not if I'm expecting them from you.
I find it staggering that some desperate people are still dumb enough to support British nationalism, britain is broken nothing is fit for purpose,we cant even look after the sick and the elderly properly in this un great britain.
I have no time for those who say there is no way Scotland could go it alone. I know first-hand the contribution Scotland and Scots made to Britain's success - so for me there's no question about whether Scotland could be an independent nation.
The political system is broken, the economy is broken and so is society. That is why people are so depressed about the state of our country.
Foreign wars, millions of iraqis dead,no wmds, afganistan, tory blair ,david cameron, bent police, journalists,politicians expenses scandal, lobbyist scandal, nhs scandal in england, care homes, schools failing, bankers scandal,aircraft carriers with no planes,, nimrods ,billions spent and scraped, property bubble which has not fully burst yet, but we will fuel it again anyway, jimmy saville abuse scandal, bbc scandal, tax avoidance scandal, posh boys running our governments, a minority group, where are the working class in politics.
Just the tip of the iceberg , where you orgers been for the last 15 years or so, or are you all wearing blinkers,
better the devil you know , i think not, time for a fresh start me thinks, and the oil, if it was mines to give to you englanders i would give it to you for independence for the chance of a fresh start for us true scots, cause thats all we ever here from the english politico types, successive westminster governments have destroyed this country tory libs and labour,self serving greed mongers, a bunch of monkeys could do a better job of running a country than what we have had for at least the last 40 years, and yet you british nationalists will blame the scottish people for breaking up the uk, your having a laugh, maybe some folk on here should look back at what they have posted on this site from years ago to see the scandals that have rocked this country to its knees, the british empire died a long time ago get over it, britain is a second rate country,with third rate politicians who think britain is still a power in the world ,lmfao, nuff said back to making money. good luck, the uk will need it, if the scots have the baws to leave them, bankruptcy anyone. lol.
ywindythesecond
24-Jul-13, 08:34
I find it staggering that some desperate people are still dumb enough to support British nationalism, britain is broken nothing is fit for purpose,we cant even look after the sick and the elderly properly in this un great britain.
I have no time for those who say there is no way Scotland could go it alone. I know first-hand the contribution Scotland and Scots made to Britain's success - so for me there's no question about whether Scotland could be an independent nation.
The political system is broken, the economy is broken and so is society. That is why people are so depressed about the state of our country.
Foreign wars, millions of iraqis dead,no wmds, afganistan, tory blair ,david cameron, bent police, journalists,politicians expenses scandal, lobbyist scandal, nhs scandal in england, care homes, schools failing, bankers scandal,aircraft carriers with no planes,, nimrods ,billions spent and scraped, property bubble which has not fully burst yet, but we will fuel it again anyway, jimmy saville abuse scandal, bbc scandal, tax avoidance scandal, posh boys running our governments, a minority group, where are the working class in politics.
Just the tip of the iceberg , where you orgers been for the last 15 years or so, or are you all wearing blinkers,
better the devil you know , i think not, time for a fresh start me thinks, and the oil, if it was mines to give to you englanders i would give it to you for independence for the chance of a fresh start for us true scots, cause thats all we ever here from the english politico types, successive westminster governments have destroyed this country tory libs and labour,self serving greed mongers, a bunch of monkeys could do a better job of running a country than what we have had for at least the last 40 years, and yet you british nationalists will blame the scottish people for breaking up the uk, your having a laugh, maybe some folk on here should look back at what they have posted on this site from years ago to see the scandals that have rocked this country to its knees, the british empire died a long time ago get over it, britain is a second rate country,with third rate politicians who think britain is still a power in the world ,lmfao, nuff said back to making money. good luck, the uk will need it, if the scots have the baws to leave them, bankruptcy anyone. lol.
I completely agree with your analysis of the state of Britain. I don't agree with the independence idea, but I have a lot of sympathy with true Nationalists who have to choose between the status quo and going independent under a bunch of lying self-seeking waving in the wind making up policy every day spineless no strength of character gutless talentless dishonourable .. lost for words....... present Scottish Government Ministers.
Salmond is a liar and nobody in his Cabinet corrects him. Makes them all liars too.
Er... the point I thought, is the headline grabbing nature of the afirmation. When analysed for about half a second you can see he is talking about total gross turnover of the oil producers. This doesn't even remotely resemble any income the state of Scotland may receive. :roll:
So produce figures to prove him wrong...which, on past performance will definitely not be the OBR forecasts.......but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.....and certainly not if I'm expecting them from you.
So you are expecting we can all give up working and live off the interest do you? That would be a result wouldn't it? I'd vote for that!
secrets in symmetry
24-Jul-13, 10:01
Er... the point I thought, is the headline grabbing nature of the afirmation. When analysed for about half a second you can see he is talking about total gross turnover of the oil producers. This doesn't even remotely resemble any income the state of Scotland may receive. :roll:Indeed.
It's staggering that anyone is impressed by an irrelevant bit of arithmetic involving big numbers, which you can do in your head in a few seconds.
Believe it or not, ugly fat Eck's economic "gurus" don't go very far beyond this sort of simple arithmetic! They have absolutely no idea!
macadamia
24-Jul-13, 10:21
"It is never difficult to distinguish between a true Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine". I find it lamentable that a number of Scottish people find it so necessary to make victims of themselves, using the "corrupt English" to make their point. The UK is a democracy which has been run in the past by a grammar schoolboy (Harold Wilson), a union leader (James Callaghan), and even a lowly grocer's daughter - whom the Scots hated most of all. If ONLY she'd been a silver-spooned Tory grandee from Cheltenham Ladies College.....
In the meantime, our fevered correspondent calls the UK corrupt, mendacious, past whatever thought was its best, decaying, declining, deserving of oblivion, and basically stating that the second the ties of Union are severed, then suddenly a huge burden will have been lifted from......Scots, English, Polish, Pakistani, Romanian, and other rainbow nation voters who will make their mark in September of next year. Who made the voting rules which prevent expatriate Scots from voting? Why, the same Noble Leader who thought it might be a good idea to give the vote to impressionable teenagers, who sadly turned out to be able to count and compute, and work out that the Dear Leader's empty promises were worthy of the same credence as the Edinburgh trams or the Holyrood parliament building. The same leader whose idea of economics is just adding as many zeros as possible to the end of every sum "proving" untold wealth for - er - decades to come.
When a correspondent has to insult the opposition, then he has run out of argument. Meanwhile, the global recession is ending: growth projections for the UK have actually been modified upward by the IMF: Scotland has been cushioned by this activity, and by the protection of the Bank of England. Just as we emerge from the gloom of the last years, we have to face this final trial of a minority bunch of would be "Freedom-seekers" invoking the spirit of the past to rid themselves of the "yoke of oppression" forced on them by the "tyrants" of Westminster.
There is just a small part of me which would wish Scotland independence, if only for the first day the new nation realises that it can no longer blame "Wastemonster" and the "Torries" (as they are usually spelt) for every ill deed, thought, action and law which befalls the people of Caledonia. In a very hard, tough, corrupt, uncompromising, dog-eat-dog world, the Union is a rather good insurance policy. The Monarchy, Sterling, employment opportunity, trading partnerships, protection of NATO, and many other tangible and untangible benefits, are even recognised by the Dear Leader as things Scotland would really quite like to hang on to. We admire his "Pick and Mix" approach to independent sovereignty, if only for its impudence.
Please, stop bad mouthing the Union. It's done more good than harm, and there's still a fair amount of goodwill you might wish not to dilute. In the meantime, that was the worst imitation of John Laurie I've ever seen in print! You need to get more emotion out of the catchphrase "We're all doomed!"
When a correspondent has to insult the opposition, then he has run out of argument.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ROFLMAO
secrets in symmetry
24-Jul-13, 10:45
"It is never difficult to distinguish between a true Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine". I find it lamentable that a number of Scottish people find it so necessary to make victims of themselves, using the "corrupt English" to make their point. The UK is a democracy which has been run in the past by a grammar schoolboy (Harold Wilson), a union leader (James Callaghan), and even a lowly grocer's daughter - whom the Scots hated most of all. If ONLY she'd been a silver-spooned Tory grandee from Cheltenham Ladies College.....Don't forget John Major. The son of a circus performer (a clown?), he left school at 16 with 3 O levels, and helped his father sell garden gnomes....
Don't forget that Wilson and Thatcher both had the benefit of an Oxford education.
macadamia
24-Jul-13, 10:53
Which they aspired to through dint of honest hard toil.....
macadamia
24-Jul-13, 10:55
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s403x403/164962_10201016181919812_840672644_n.jpg
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201016181919812&set=gm.513443088729321&type=1&ref=nf)
secrets in symmetry
24-Jul-13, 11:18
Which they aspired to through dint of honest hard toil.....Yes, indeed.
I imagine there was much more of a stigma to being a product of a "mere grammar school" at Oxford back in their day.
Now that I have composed myself
Here is the interview in Which Alex Salmond discusses the value of the oil - At no point is he saying that we will be all giving up work and living off the interest. At no time does he say that this is the income that Scotland will get for the oil. The question he is asked is "Whats your forecast for how much more oil is to be extracted" And the values shown above were given in response to that. There is no need for any analysis - it is stated perfectly clearly that he is talking about the amount of oil to be extracted and not the amount of income.
If you want to skip the rest of it you will find the pertinent point at 4.40 minutes
Here is the link to the paper that was produced yesterday
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00428074.pdf
Read it and make your own decisions.
I am not impressed by big numbers Lizz said she couldnt make the maths work out and Ducati implied the same so I just worked it out for them.
I dont like being put int he position of having to defend Alex Salmond or the SNP - they are not really my party of choice but to be honest macademia there is so much misinformation in this one extract that it rivals Toruil Chrichtons column on Monday in the Daily Record.
Who made the voting rules which prevent expatriate Scots from voting? Why, the same Noble Leader who thought it might be a good idea to give the vote to impressionable teenagers, who sadly turned out to be able to count and compute, and work out that the Dear Leader's empty promises were worthy of the same credence as the Edinburgh trams or the Holyrood parliament building. The same leader whose idea of economics is just adding as many zeros as possible to the end of every sum "proving" untold wealth for - er - decades to come.
Lets see
The voting rules for voting in the referendum are the same rules as those for voting in Scottish Parliament Elections. These rules were agreed at the inception of the Scottish Parliament and they are the same rules as apply to any local or regional election or referendum. They are enshrined in legislation and the existing legislation was used as the basis for deciding who could vote in the referendum. Alex Salmond did not make the voting rules which prevent expat Scots from voting. Expat Scots are already prevented from voting in Scottish Parliament elections. You might argue that he could have petitioned to change that but the costs involved with that would have been massive and he would have been accused of trying to gerrymander because the perception that expats will vote for an independent Scotland was quite strong at the time.
The SNP have had the policy for giving the vote to 16/17 year olds since the mid eighties. Alex Salmond was not leader of the SNP until 1990. Wherever they have had the opportunity to give that right to 16/17 year old they have done so. It seems that it is actually the SNP who know that young people can count and compute information and have the right to be heard.
The Holyrood Bulding which you infer was another empty promise by the SNP or Alex Salmond himself was actually a labour party promises. The building of the parliament commenced in 1998 and was completed in 2004. Salmond resigned as SNP leader in 2000 and did not seek re-election to the Scottish Parliament. He did however retain his Westminster seat in the 2001 General Election Salmond was once again elected SNP leader in 2004 and the following year held his Banff and Buchan seat in the 2005 General Election. from wikipedia) The SNP were not in power until 2007 when they formed a coalition and only in 2011 did they achieve a majority. Hmmm maybe not HIS promises then - maybe not even the SNP promises. Who was responsibile for the building fiasco then?
Well in 2004 the Fraser report was published http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/sep/16/uk.scotland
This was a six months long enquiry into how come the building was so late and so over budget. Does it mention the SNP? Does it mention Alex Salmond? No it doesnt.
So no SNP promises and no Alex Salmond promises either.
As for the Trams - As I understand it the decisions about the trams were made by Edinburgh City council. IT seems however that all parties were represented on this seemingly massively incompetent organisation although the SNP were a minority party. Alan Cochrane writing in the telegraph in 2012 suggests that Edinburgh was the worst local authority in the UK. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9208019/Lets-run-those-behind-this-Trams-fiasco-out-of-town.html
All parties share the blame for the tram fiasco. However in the context of your post macademia it is worth pointing out that the SNP tried to cancel the project when they were part of the coalition in 2007. Indeed cancellation was in their manifesto. Why didnt it happen? Another promise broken? Well it seems that they were outvoted by labour, libdems and tories - Democracy in action.
The future of the Edinburgh Trams project came under threat in 2007 when the Scottish Natonal Party (SNP) published in its manifesto for the Scottish Parliamentary Elections its intention to cancel the scheme, along with the
Edinburgh Airport Rail link , in order to save a total of £1.1bn.
In the debate on the Government's Transport program various opposition politicians made statements defending the Edinburgh Trams project. In particular, Labour MSP Wendy Alexander said "The Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change claimed that the costs were out of control, but they are not."
Following a vote which it lost... the SNP-led minority Scottish government agreed to continue with the line from the Airport to Leith on condition that no more public money would be supplied if the project overran. A report by Audit Scotland, commissioned by the Scottish Government, confirmed that the cost projections were sound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams
Even the afore mentioned Alan cochrane in the article quoted says "Least culpable, I suppose, are the SNP representatives. That party has always been against the project and, to be fair to them, Alex Salmond and John Swinney, his finance minister, tried to axe it when they first came to power in 2007. However, in those days they were outvoted by Labour, Tories and Liberal Democrats."
Now I have no bother with you thinking that the democratically elected party which runs the Scottish Government is rubbish. I dont have any issue with your dislike of Alex Salmond. He isnt my favourite politician either. However lets have a bit of accuracy amongst your ramblings. Blaming Alex Salmond for the trams and the Holyrood Building is just silly
equusdriving
24-Jul-13, 12:24
"It is never difficult to distinguish between a true Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine". I find it lamentable that a number of Scottish people find it so necessary to make victims of themselves, using the "corrupt English" to make their point. The UK is a democracy which has been run in the past by a grammar schoolboy (Harold Wilson), a union leader (James Callaghan), and even a lowly grocer's daughter - whom the Scots hated most of all. If ONLY she'd been a silver-spooned Tory grandee from Cheltenham Ladies College.....
In the meantime, our fevered correspondent calls the UK corrupt, mendacious, past whatever thought was its best, decaying, declining, deserving of oblivion, and basically stating that the second the ties of Union are severed, then suddenly a huge burden will have been lifted from......Scots, English, Polish, Pakistani, Romanian, and other rainbow nation voters who will make their mark in September of next year. Who made the voting rules which prevent expatriate Scots from voting? Why, the same Noble Leader who thought it might be a good idea to give the vote to impressionable teenagers, who sadly turned out to be able to count and compute, and work out that the Dear Leader's empty promises were worthy of the same credence as the Edinburgh trams or the Holyrood parliament building. The same leader whose idea of economics is just adding as many zeros as possible to the end of every sum "proving" untold wealth for - er - decades to come.
When a correspondent has to insult the opposition, then he has run out of argument. Meanwhile, the global recession is ending: growth projections for the UK have actually been modified upward by the IMF: Scotland has been cushioned by this activity, and by the protection of the Bank of England. Just as we emerge from the gloom of the last years, we have to face this final trial of a minority bunch of would be "Freedom-seekers" invoking the spirit of the past to rid themselves of the "yoke of oppression" forced on them by the "tyrants" of Westminster.
There is just a small part of me which would wish Scotland independence, if only for the first day the new nation realises that it can no longer blame "Wastemonster" and the "Torries" (as they are usually spelt) for every ill deed, thought, action and law which befalls the people of Caledonia. In a very hard, tough, corrupt, uncompromising, dog-eat-dog world, the Union is a rather good insurance policy. The Monarchy, Sterling, employment opportunity, trading partnerships, protection of NATO, and many other tangible and untangible benefits, are even recognised by the Dear Leader as things Scotland would really quite like to hang on to. We admire his "Pick and Mix" approach to independent sovereignty, if only for its impudence.
Please, stop bad mouthing the Union. It's done more good than harm, and there's still a fair amount of goodwill you might wish not to dilute. In the meantime, that was the worst imitation of John Laurie I've ever seen in print! You need to get more emotion out of the catchphrase "We're all doomed!"
very well said
Tragically, for the knockers, it appears that the UK is doing rather better. Hopefully Scotland will do as well, but, if we don't, we know who to blame.
There appears to be only one knocker here Ducati - I am glad that things are improving for the UK. Im just sorry that there remain people paying the price for the policies of division and inequality. The Welfare Reforms, the ATOS fiasco (latest information tells us that around 40% of people assessed have been wrongly found fit for work), the reduction in taxes for the ultra rich, the proposedpay rise for MPs, the expenses scandals, the privatisation of much of the NHS, the rise in homeless, the rise in rent arrears and on and on it goes. Do people feel that it is a price worth paying?
Perhaps Jack might not agree http://agirlcalledjack.com/2012/07/30/hunger-hurts/
If you are happy with the sort of society that we have just now and dont see any reason for change then thats fine for you. Its not for me. I want change and I know that there are better ways and different ways of doing things which dont consign 1 in 4 children to live in poverty. Which doesnt lead to the villification of the sick disabled and unemployed. I KNOW that there are different ways - I dont think it, I dont hope it I actually KNOW it.
What other opportunity to change things is there if voting for Independence is not it?
All well and good this blame Westminster for everything but from what I am seeing and experiencing in correspondence with various Holyrood MSPs and officials they are at least as bad if not worse. They just don't seem to have any grasp on reality and have even less idea on what is being spent by whom and on what. It does not make for any sort of confidence in the future.
Tragically, for the knockers, it appears that the UK is doing rather better. Hopefully Scotland will do as well, but, if we don't, we know who to blame.
How is the UK doing rather better? Got a link with figures or have you made it up for something to say? And how do you quantify better, anyway? Better enough that there will be no bedroom tax? Better enough that both taxes on the rich can be reduced and tax avoidance/evasion can happily be ignored if it is businesses and the rich who are benefiting.... and....better enough that there is no need to trash the disabled and disadvantaged to pay for those perks for those with plenty money already?
Or maybe, given your fixation about profiting from property.....better enough that the Government doesn't have to set up the distinct possibility of another Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac equivalent meltdown, which is likely to eventually end up reprising the financial crisis which brought us to where we are today, because the bank regulation is still too light...but may well provide profit for those who already own their homes (if they get in fast enough)? Better enough that for the first time since the arrival of the coalition that their targets for debt repayment and borrowing will actually be met?
Haven't you noticed that Scotland is doing a bit better than the UK....or it would be if we had all our revenues to disburse as it suits us.......certainly despite the scare tactics re UK pontification on nobody investing in Scotland due to uncertainty over the referendum, it appears that the possibility of independence is only scaring the UK Parliament and Unionist Scots......and not investors. However it does appear that uncertainty over the UK coming out of the EU may well start to cause problems...which will affect us as well if we vote no.....as non-EU countries which have businesses here in order to access EU markets will be voting with their removal vans.
All well and good this blame Westminster for everything but from what I am seeing and experiencing in correspondence with various Holyrood MSPs and officials they are at least as bad if not worse. They just don't seem to have any grasp on reality and have even less idea on what is being spent by whom and on what. It does not make for any sort of confidence in the future.
Lizz I am sorry but I do not know what sort of issues you are dealing with or corresponding about. All i know is that I am daily seeing people whos lives are being made harder by Westminster policies which the Scottish Government is doing its best to mitigate.
So do I blame Westminster for everything? No
I blame them for the policies which have been put in place which have given no care or thought to the people affected. Welfare reform
Bedroom Tax.
I blame them for the huge numbers of people who have been wrongly found fit for work or given false hope that they will find work through a poorly performing back to work programme because successive governments decided that profit could be made out of people's misery - ATOS, A4e
I blame them for the running down of the health service so that A and E is on the point of collapse,
I blame them for the degredation and villification of those less fortunate by their use of words like skiver and scrounger so that some disabled people are being abused and assaulted simply for being on benefits
I blame them for a culture of self importance and entitlement that leads them to claim expenses for renting a house of another MP who is renting a house off another MP who is renting a house of another MP...... That allows them to claim thousands of pounds to trip their children up and down the country whilst a parent has to pay bedroom tax for a room which was given to them because they care for a child with additional needs yet somehow now has become an empty room.
You are bloody right I blame them for those things. Who else should i blame?
There is much wrong with the Scottish Government too. You only need look at social care - the young and vulnerable who need to be looked after, the elderly, the sick and disabled who need support and the carers who need respite. I still cannot see how, without full powers to decide our own priorities, we can change these things. I cant see how we can make any inroads to changing the things that are wrong without power. The Scottish Government as it is today does not have the power because they do not hold the purse strings. How do we hold a government to account when they only have limited control of the levers of government? In an Independent Scotland we will have a government which is elected by the people of Scotland. A Government which will focus on the prioirites which the people of Scotland voted for. A Government that can is accountable to the people of Scotland and which can be voted out by the people of Scotland. Money collected in Scotland will be spent on Scotland's priorities which have been decided upon by voters in Scotland. Thats a huge difference already. These things are what gives us an opportunity for change for doing things differently. A different welfare system, a different health system, a different care system, a different taxation system, a different defence system, a different banking system, a different society. Some of these things may have to change some may not but how do we change things if we remain within the UK?
My word, good to see the british nationalists out in force, lmfao, are you unionists just BNP members in disguise :eek:
90% of what i posted earlier are quotes from westminster politicians, PM david cameron and mr george galloway , opposite ends of a short crappy stick in politico terms,
you british nationalists really are blind to what goes on in your own country, your worse than the yanks for rose tinted specs,
your own prime minister made the majority of the comments
and quote:
I have no time for those who say there is no way Scotland could go it alone. I know first-hand the contribution Scotland and Scots made to Britain's success - so for me there's no question about whether Scotland could be an independent nation.
mr cameron, lol
The political system is broken, the economy is broken and so is society. That is why people are so depressed about the state of our country. mr cameron, lol
britain is broken nothing is fit for purpose,we cant even look after the sick and the elderly properly mr cameron , yawn, lol
Foreign wars, millions of iraqis dead,no wmds, afganistan, tory blair ,david cameron, bent police, journalists,politicians expenses scandal, lobbyist scandal, nhs scandal in england, care homes, schools failing, bankers scandal,aircraft carriers with no planes,, nimrods ,billions spent and scraped, property bubble which has not fully burst yet, but we will fuel it again anyway, jimmy saville abuse scandal, bbc scandal, tax avoidance scandal, posh boys running our governments, a minority group, where are the working class in politics. mr g galloway, yawn
the british empire died a long time ago get over it, britain is a second rate country,with third rate politicians who think britain is still a power in the world , successive westminster governments have destroyed this country tory libs and labour,
self serving greed mongers, a bunch of monkeys could do a better job of running a country than what we have had for at least the last 40 years,
mr g galloway lol.
nuff said back to making money. good luck, the uk will need it, if the scots have the baws to leave them, bankruptcy anyone. lol. yours truly ,me, a ray of sunshine :D
It is never difficult to distinguish between a true Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine". I find it lamentable that a number of Scottish people find it so necessary to make victims of themselves, using the "corrupt English" to make their point, take your pick, mr cameron or mr galloway lmfao,, you are so funny on this forum, :Razz I take it mr cameron is the knocker, im sure he has been called worse.
macadamia
25-Jul-13, 07:51
So Mr Cameron and Gorgeous George, the "indefatigable" class warrior, are the ultimate arbiters of the state of the nation. Interesting that you should quote them, as opposed to those who are currently talking up the UK's chances. Still, whatever drives your loathing of the nation state in which you currently live.
As far as rose-tined specs are concerned, the Yanks and the Brits have a huge history of optimism which drives them forwards. Optimism is a better motivator than the wretched negativity you seem to espouse.
"BNP members in disguise"? Beneath contempt.
What comes across from your rantings (as opposed to mine which, of course are both shining beacons of utter truth and completely unreconstructible!) is your anger, your espoused victimhood, and a certain assuredness that even if Scotland were somehow to become independent, it wouldn't take you long to realise you had exchanged one set of unbearable shackles for another. sadly, you are destined to be disappointed. I feel sorry for you.
How is the UK doing rather better? Got a link with figures or have you made it up for something to say? And how do you quantify better, anyway? Better enough that there will be no bedroom tax? Better enough that both taxes on the rich can be reduced and tax avoidance/evasion can happily be ignored if it is businesses and the rich who are benefiting.... and....better enough that there is no need to trash the disabled and disadvantaged to pay for those perks for those with plenty money already?
Or maybe, given your fixation about profiting from property.....better enough that the Government doesn't have to set up the distinct possibility of another Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac equivalent meltdown, which is likely to eventually end up reprising the financial crisis which brought us to where we are today, because the bank regulation is still too light...but may well provide profit for those who already own their homes (if they get in fast enough)? Better enough that for the first time since the arrival of the coalition that their targets for debt repayment and borrowing will actually be met?
Haven't you noticed that Scotland is doing a bit better than the UK....or it would be if we had all our revenues to disburse as it suits us.......certainly despite the scare tactics re UK pontification on nobody investing in Scotland due to uncertainty over the referendum, it appears that the possibility of independence is only scaring the UK Parliament and Unionist Scots......and not investors. However it does appear that uncertainty over the UK coming out of the EU may well start to cause problems...which will affect us as well if we vote no.....as non-EU countries which have businesses here in order to access EU markets will be voting with their removal vans.
I have to look at economic performance. Everything else is supported by this. So, falling debt, rising employment, and a return to solid growth. Not much yet, but green shoots non the less. I don't include a scale of 'how much the Torys and homeowners annoy oddquinn' I'm afraid, it isn't one of my indicators.
Oh sorry, I don't really do links, this bit of the internet is irritating enough without furtling about in the rest of it. I tend to comment on things I see in the UK news so it is easily checkable.
David Cameron is prime Minister and George Galloway - love him or loathe him is an elected representative. If these people arent arbiters of the state of the nation who is. Surely if the quotes are from these people then the wretched negativity is David Cameron's and George Galloways?
I dont agree that those posting on here in support of the union are akin to the BNP at all. However it is interesting that Macademia thinks that the comment is "beyond contempt" when those of us supporting an Independent Scotland are frequently decried on this board by a variety of posters as anti english racist idiots. I hope that you think this is beyond contempt too Macademia.
Well said squidge. What I would like to see is informed argument with facts and figures that can be easily verified and are not just half truths put about by either faction. It discredits both sides and will leave voters even more confused and less likely to engage when all they are witnessing is a slanging match between their elected representatives.
macadamia
25-Jul-13, 11:48
Squidge - I have nothing but admiration and respect for those who pursue the goal of Independence based upon the idea of "freedom TO" as opposed to "freedom FROM", which I surmise is the basis of your beliefs. I would readily agree that anyone who supporting Independence with argument and foundation, as they see it, is entitled to respect. But anyone displaying visceral hatred and ignorance must be reminded of their position in the scheme of things.
It is interesting that the "yes" camp find the use of extra-contextual quotations by their enemies, who are other wise dismissed as either hateful, ignorant or irrelevant, to be a valid part of their arguments.
Either Cameron is an "Etonian toff Torry from Wastemonster", or he is to be quoted as a principal credible authority. You can't have it both ways!
That's before we get to the business of George Galloway, whose part in the proceedings is only to make the SNP's arguments sound moderate.
secrets in symmetry
25-Jul-13, 22:42
It is interesting that the "yes" camp find the use of extra-contextual quotations by their enemies, who are other wise dismissed as either hateful, ignorant or irrelevant, to be a valid part of their arguments.
Either Cameron is an "Etonian toff Torry from Wastemonster", or he is to be quoted as a principal credible authority. You can't have it both ways!I forgot to include "hypocrites" in my list of secessionists' attributes. Sorry.
What I would like to see is informed argument with facts and figures that can be easily verified and are not just half truths put about by either faction. It discredits both sides and will leave voters even more confused and less likely to engage when all they are witnessing is a slanging match between their elected representatives.
Sadly this is the biggest problem. However, when you look at the SNP propaganda machine, it is good in one respect. It is constant, bombarding the media and digital resources with a constant stream of press releases, regardless of accuracy. Not that elements of the pro Union camp are any more accurate, but the frequency seems far less.
It is all played out with the exact same Westminster soundbite methodology that they are bleating about dragging Scotland down.
If they could rise above it and remove the spin, more people would stop and listen and possibly think about it more. But instead the BS is delivered with venom, vitriol and spin as if it is being written by Coulson, Campbell & 'Tucker' directly from Westminster.
It is interesting that the "yes" camp find the use of extra-contextual quotations by their enemies, who are other wise dismissed as either hateful, ignorant or irrelevant, to be a valid part of their arguments.Either Cameron is an "Etonian toff Torry from Wastemonster", or he is to be quoted as a principal credible authority. You can't have it both ways!That's before we get to the business of George Galloway, whose part in the proceedings is only to make the SNP's arguments sound moderate.
David Cameron is the Prime Minister. His opinion counts with the world, the media and others. I might also think he is an Etonion Torry Toff" but he is still the Prime Minister and if those quotes were his then it is to be assumed that he is speaking as he sees. If he says Britain is broken people WILL believe him. Hateful he may be, Ignorant he certainly is but irrelevant he is definitely not. He is the Prime Minister of Great Britain and therefore his comments hold credence.
Im sorry macademia but I dont know what " extra contextual quotes" means.
You also talked earlier about optimism and pessimism and its maybe worth examining the messages from both sides of the Independence debate and see which side talk about hope and opportunity, peace and empathy and and which side creates anger, jealousy and greed.
macadamia
25-Jul-13, 23:43
David Cameron is "hateful" and "ignorant". This tells me more about you than it does about David Cameron.
Macademia. Hateful Ignorant and irrelevant were your words. I dont think David Cameron is hateful and I did not say I did but there are some who may think he is. I do think he is ignorant. Ignorant of the issues facing those people who are sick, those who are on benefits and those who do not live in the world he inhabits. A person who has never had to worry about affording anything. Never had to empty his penny jar to pay the milkman; never had to worry about money or getting work. I think he is a man who has always known privelidge and who went from public school to oxford to politics. Without actually mixing with people outside that small world. even the time he spent with Carlton was at Director level, he appears to have little experience of the things that are affecting the man in the street. He is a member of what seems to be a new sort of political class... He isnt the only one, there are too many with little experience of the world outside the hallowed halls of Westminster.
Irrelevant he isnt.
macadamia
26-Jul-13, 01:01
I cannot abide class envy. It simply makes victims of those who maintain it as a philosophy.
I am no envious lol. I am certainly not a victim of anything lol lol. The problem lies with his narrow field of experience. Other politicians have had the same route and the same money but have Done something else before being elected. It seems to be this current crop of, not only tory, politicians who have followed this route. I think it leaves them ignorant of the issues that people face on a day to day basis. You may disagree - you may think they are absolutely in touch with society and the problems it has. Absolutely in tunewith the way their policies translate into reality for the man in the street.Maybe instead of a glib dismissal which have been trying to do for a post or two you could perhaps explain why you think he has his finger on the pulse of what is happeniing to people on a daily basis. If you think he is distant from the realities of life then maybe you have your own theories as to why that is. Im prepared to be shown to be wrong anytime Macademia :)
macadamia
26-Jul-13, 09:02
I would think that David Cameron's breadth of experience certainly outstrips the experiences of nearly all of the population, and has done since his very early days.
Your implication is that only if someone has experienced your particular vision of "the real world" then that person is empowered to speak on behalf of the people. As it was, David Cameron spent some time in the business world, and learned almost certainly from his schooldays, as did a good number of us, the nature of competing in order to secure the best possible outcomes, the scheme of networking employed by every club, society, party, and union in the land: and above all, how to win the votes of many hundreds of thousands of people who ARE members of "the real world", and who judge carefully who should represent them (unless of course, they are "tribal" voters, as in "My party, right or wrong, just like we've always voted in this family").
I will never be able to prove you wrong, because my thoughts will be dismissed as slogans, precisely in the same way you will never convince me that this secessionist business is of enduring value. However, we live in a democracy, and I admire your honest fighting for your cause. and because I live in a democracy, if the vote results in Independence, I will accept it as the will of the people.
You make some good points which Im not going to argue with. Im always pleased to hear a proper contribution from you. Thanks. Im glad you wont be joining secrets on the next train south if The vote is for Independence. It will be exciting interesting and no doubt disappointing and frustrating too at times. There will be many more issues to discuss and dissect ... I cant wait lol
Sighs, they are at it again [disgust]
The real world is the one we all live in. Our experiences are all different. I would say a lack of empathy can become anyone. Why do you assume that someone with a privileged (as you call it) background has any less than anyone else? Personally I'd prefer less privilege and less dead children.
Poverty and anguish are not the norm in the UK however much you would like to think it is. Most people get on with life quite happily.
I notice no sources in this thread just a bunch of circlejerking and vitriol from the usual suspects.
macadamia
26-Jul-13, 12:10
Well done, Rec! You noticed! What we have here is a display of opinions, which don't require what Chaucer called "greet auctoritees" to give them any validation. If you agree with 'em - they're valid. If you don't agree with 'em - they're rubbish. If you don't like other people having 'em - tough. This is a democratic public access provision, and only the Man from Moderatorland says "Yea" or "Nay".
The real world is the one we all live in. Our experiences are all different. I would say a lack of empathy can become anyone. Why do you assume that someone with a privileged (as you call it) background has any less than anyone else? Personally I'd prefer less privilege and less dead children.Poverty and anguish are not the norm in the UK however much you would like to think it is. Most people get on with life quite happily.For heavens sake, I was talking about my opinion of David Cameron particularly and some of the politicians in the current government and other parties. There are many thousands of people with similar background that are different. This is MY opinion of one person in a particular role. Im certainly not assuming that all people from that background are all the same. They are not. Poverty and anguish do not apply to everyone but surely surely the party in power has a duty to listen and understand the position of those with least power, the smallest voice and the most disadvantaged. In society.
rob murray
26-Jul-13, 14:25
I wonder if there is any chance of getting the 350.000 in a one off up front payment....that would be nice !
macadamia
26-Jul-13, 15:38
Apparently the Claims Office is now open. Just apply to Holyrood Home for the Verbally Incontinent, Edinburgh (near the trams), where a Mr. A. Salmond, the Senior Claims Officer, will help you fill out the form, which you will then have to take to the Fred Goodwin Breakaway Bank, Unicorn Lane, La-la Town, Dunbotherin for encashment in brand new shiny groatettes.
secrets in symmetry
27-Jul-13, 00:27
It's not always necessary to insult secessionists. Some aren't as stupid as we expect them to be. I converted one today in a face to face discussion. Obviously, she wasn't as thick as the rest of her delusionists, but contrary to expectation there are secessionists who can think for themselves with a little help.
rogermellie
27-Jul-13, 01:39
It's not always necessary to insult secessionists. Some aren't as stupid as we expect them to be. I converted one today in a face to face discussion. Obviously, she wasn't as thick as the rest of her delusionists, but contrary to expectation there are secessionists who can think for themselves with a little help.
if she really was less than thick then she might have faked a conversion just to get rid of you
give me an example of converting some thick ones and then i'll be impressed
Lets face it, if the political class had any idea of the real world the rest of us live in we probably wouldn't be having an indy debate.
Even the few that claimed to have 'worked' prior to entering politics seemed to have come from well connected families via cushy, high salary 'city' type jobs.
Man of the workers, poor Ed Dribbleband's 'difficult' decisions were how best to carve up the family estate to avoid tax. Sadly he was forced to get married (to be PM tackle) thus having to take some tax payments on the chin. (but his 12% pay rise will cover that).
Many MP's / MSP's rake in about £200,000+ by the time they've employed their spouses. On top of any 'consultancy' work they may have. And ignoring any personal wealth they may have, do you really think any of them have to consider where and what groceries they buy each week. Or if they can afford any of their holidays each year.
While they are being whisked around by their drivers do they worry about how many miles they have in their tank (or even know how much a tank of fuel costs).
While Mr Salmond gets whisked about by helicopter do you think he has any clue about how the good people of Caithness have to travel to Inverness for their healthcare and the impact this has on real people's lives?
macadamia
27-Jul-13, 10:50
Given the propensity of Scottish helicopters to run out of sky from time to time, I am happier casting my lot with the X99 Stagecoach than being up there with the First Minister, who at any moment might become the First Corpse.
Oh they don't run out of sky, they run out of oil. Oddly! Save for Mr Salmond's as he has huge reserves.
secrets in symmetry
27-Jul-13, 11:45
if she really was less than thick then she might have faked a conversion just to get rid of youThat's possible lol! I don't think so though. She had simply been taken in by the secessionists' naive arguments.
give me an example of converting some thick ones and then i'll be impressedThat's a tougher task. I'd be impressed too! :cool:
circlejerking
I meant to ask. What's that then?
If Mr Cameron has his way, you may never find out!
ywindythesecond
28-Jul-13, 18:31
It's not always necessary to insult secessionists. Some aren't as stupid as we expect them to be. I converted one today in a face to face discussion. Obviously, she wasn't as thick as the rest of her delusionists, but contrary to expectation there are secessionists who can think for themselves with a little help.
If she is following this thread, you're mince mate!
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