View Full Version : Croeso Ir Alban (Welcome to Scotland)
When I worked at Dounreay during the 1970's top dart players used to play at the Legion at Thurso. One of the organisers, who worked for Scotts (I recall his name being Wiilie who smoked cigars) realising that i was a Welshman and asked if i could present a Welsh banner to Leighton Rees which read in Welsh 'Croeso i'r Alban' or Welcome to Scotland. When Leighton went on stage and was reminded of my good efforts he replied "I don't understand Welsh". Leighton being a South Walian I suppose he can be excused. At that time I felt let down and embarrased that a Welshman could not understand Welsh, but I was a North Walien. How do the good folk of Caithness, which is also the most Northerly County In Scotland fand which gave me the most welcome of welcomes when I stayed there feel about their own language and culture, do you think that the Scottish Assemby should be doing more to enhance your own language?
Metalattakk
28-Jan-07, 05:15
.....do you think that the Scottish Assemby should be doing more to enhance your own language?
I take it you are referring to the Gaelic?
If so, let me attempt to correct you:
In about half (well, the north-eastern side) of the county of Caithness, Gaelic has never been spoken. This is most evident in the place names which are almost all based on the Old Norse language. The west and south of the county however has many Gaelic place names.
Perhaps you'd like to define 'your own language"?
In reply to Metalattakk,s comments, where he asks "define your own language" obviously my first language is Welsh, being born and bred in Wales. My education consisted of Welsh history-English history, Welsh Geography-English Geography etc, every school subject was doubled up by the Welsh version of that subject, teachers had to be bilingual. Even French lessons is translated to Welsh rather than English, on the simplistic fact that Welsh is our first language. In this context I had to sit double the exams of England, Scotland and Ireland, but I was proud to do this for my own identity of being Welsh. Therefore does this answer the question of "define your own language" or are we duty bound to only speak English?
Jeemag_USA
28-Jan-07, 18:49
I take it you are referring to the Gaelic?
If so, let me attempt to correct you:
In about half (well, the north-eastern side) of the county of Caithness, Gaelic has never been spoken. This is most evident in the place names which are almost all based on the Old Norse language. The west and south of the county however has many Gaelic place names.
Perhaps you'd like to define 'your own language"?
I am not sure if this is strictly true, I am not arguing the point but how easy is it to prove a form of Gaelic was never spoken in Caithness. There is a definitive line going from the north coast to east coast on a map where you can see the name changes and it is often though to be a seperation of Norse and Picts. But I would think a more likely explanation is that the places in Caithness named in Norse are places that have been renamed or newly named at some point in time by the Norse, I mean it makes sense if your moving in and taking over then you make your own names for stuff and as the Norse were responsible for setting up many farms which grew into small villages and towns then they are most likely to name them. The Norse were not the first people in Caithness that evident just by the amount of Cairns in Caithness. So I am not sure how we can say Gaelic or a form of it was never spoken in Caithness? The county's name itself is Pictish is it not? Just something I am not clear on because I read this in another post and it puzzled me at how a conclusion was found that Norse or whatever is the first spoken language in Caithness? It is believed that the Picts had a Celtic language that has not survived and theories are that Gaelic crept in as the language in Pictland at some point long before the Vikings arrived. I guess its not something we can say for certain as there is no real archeological evidence to prove it.
I spent a lot of my College time working in Ireland with the Gaelltachd (probably mispelt) they were kind of like the HIE for Southern Ireland and they explained to me that at one time the Gaelic was as rarely spoken in Ireland as it is in Scotland but the Irish Government and many of the County governments did a tremendous amount of work bringing the language back the the schools and Communities, and as a results there are hundreds of thousands more Gaelic speakers in Ireland then there are in Scotland, and our populations are not too disimilar.
I think its a beautiful language and even being from Caithness I would love to speak it fluently because I can only understand every other word, this is partly because I learned most of the Gaelic I know in Co.Kerry and there are vast differences, from what I was told its easier for a Scot's Gaelic speaker to understand someone from Donnegal then it is for someone from the far south of Ireland.
I think the preservation of such a beautiful language is very important, and I would support bringing it into the school curriculum throughout Scotland, maybe not as a compulsary but but maybe teach it as a subject in primary schools and make it optional in High School.
In the 1891 Census my G-G-Grandmother who was born at Osclay and her then husband who was born at Watten are both listed as being able to speak Gaelic as well as English. (My G-G-G Grandparents were Caithness born as well, Clashmore and Reisgill).
I don't know how or why they would have learned to speak Gaelic unless it was in connection with their work. My G-G-Grandmother was a Nurse/Midwife and her husband was a Teacher.
Apparently my G-Grandmother who was born at Upper Smerral also had "some" Gaelic.
So it looks as if there has been a smattering of the Gaelic in the County although I've also heard it said that it was not spoken in Caithness and I think that might also be what is written in one of the Statistical Accounts.
Dusty.
Jeemag_USA
28-Jan-07, 19:44
In the 1891 Census my G-G-Grandmother who was born at Osclay and her then husband who was born at Watten are both listed as being able to speak Gaelic as well as English. (My G-G-G Grandparents were Caithness born as well, Clashmore and Reisgill).
I don't know how or why they would have learned to speak Gaelic unless it was in connection with their work. My G-G-Grandmother was a Nurse/Midwife and her husband was a Teacher.
Apparently my G-Grandmother who was born at Upper Smerral also had "some" Gaelic.
So it looks as if there has been a smattering of the Gaelic in the County although I've also heard it said that it was not spoken in Caithness and I think that might also be what is written in one of the Statistical Accounts.
Dusty.
The Herring Indusry brought a lot of gaelic speakers to Caithness from the West, people who were following the industry for work and many of them moved into Crofting as well.
weeboyagee
28-Jan-07, 20:15
D'you know - I have had my gut full of this topic this weekend. I'm just back from Ardnamurchan this afternoon. I was at a ceilidh last night where they were announcing £30k in funding for the Highland Year of Culture. The award was to a project entitled - "Tha sinn an seo" - "Here we are" or "We are here".
I listened to the Fron Welsh Male Voice Choir's CD coming home. Track 4 is the National Anthem of Wales in Welsh and is a cracking stirring, rousing song in the original language of their country. Not all Welsh people speak their language - but their National Anthem is Welsh first - English second.
There was a thread on here recently about what we should have as our National Anthem. How wonderful it would be to have a Gaelic National Anthem first - well recognised as the country's "native" language (not English) and the translated version second. Caithnessian or not, Norn as our ancient dialect or not who cares, our "wee" bit of the county can't hold up the "non-gaelic" speaking banner forever in the vain hope that we won't get "affected" by the ever more frequent raising of this subject matter.
Gaelic has it's place in Scotland and should have an even greater place for all that.
I am nearly finished reading a book entitled "100 years of An Comunn Gaidhealach" which compares the recent history of the three languages - Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic. It is an absolute tragedy that this country has allowed the destruction of it's native language to happen - a language where in 1881 there were nearly a quarter of a million Gaelic speakers, 44,000 of whom were monoglots!!!
To reverse the trend for the benefit of the country as a whole (and don't give me "there is no benefit" whinge) we all need to buy into the idea of supporting the language and like it or not - that includes Caithness. Each area should support to the level required - areas of Gaelic speakers more so than areas with less Gaelic speakers. Scotland as a nation had a language as alive as the Welsh had - but we destroyed what we had as an identity - the Welsh have retained it and looked after it to the point that more than 0.5m people speak it in their country.
Some English speaking people go to Wales and the people in a pub will not change to English whilst they are there - quite right - why should they - they wouldn't change to English in a bar in Munich if an English speaking party walked in.
Time to embrace the Gaelic.....and to those who support it - time to open your mouths and proclaim it - please ;)
End of sermon.
WBG :cool:
Jeemag_USA
28-Jan-07, 20:44
Some English speaking people go to Wales and the people in a pub will not change to English whilst they are there - quite right - why should they - they wouldn't change to English in a bar in Munich if an English speaking party walked in.
Time to embrace the Gaelic.....and to those who support it - time to open your mouths and proclaim it - please ;)
End of sermon.
WBG :cool:
It was the same when I first went to work on The Dingle Peninsula in Kerry, they all talked Irish in the rural pubs and I didn't care wether they were talking about me or not I just loved to listen, and if I asked them a question they woudl answer me in english, and if they weren't sure of the answer they would first ask their buddy in gaelic and then answer me in English. Its a great attraction for people and its why the Irish Tourist industry is always more thriving in the South.
Not sure about the national Anthem though, I'd be happy with an anthem without words, because Scots quite often let the pipes do the talking for them, brings a tear to the eye without a mouth being opened, I always loved Scotland The Brave to be honest, always thought Flower of Scotland was not a good tune for a national anthem, I never liked the fact we found it necessary to sing about battle in a national anthem, think that shoudl be beneath us. Ireland can sing theirs in English and Gaelic, but I don't think its necessary we have to do the same, we can sing it in english and gaelic if people choose to I guess.
There was a thread on here recently about what we should have as our National Anthem. How wonderful it would be to have a Gaelic National Anthem first - well recognised as the country's "native" language (not English) and the translated version second. Caithnessian or not, Norn as our ancient dialect or not who cares, our "wee" bit of the county can't hold up the "non-gaelic" speaking banner forever in the vain hope that we won't get "affected" by the ever more frequent raising of this subject matter.
Gaelic has it's place in Scotland and should have an even greater place for all that.
Time to embrace the Gaelic.....and to those who support it - time to open your mouths and proclaim it - please ;)
End of sermon.
WBG
WBG its not often I disagree with you except over your choice of Football team. But IMO Gaelic never was Scotlands National Language. Scotland was made up of Celts, Scots, Picts and Norsemen. I am not going to bore the readers with the History of Scotland.
Gaelic is a West Highland tongue, Scotland has many tongues, Caithness was origionaly ruled and inhabited by the Earls of Zetland, their native tongue was Norse not Gaelic.
Gaelic came into Caithness via the Highland Clearances and from the peoples of Wester Ross being driven from their crofts by the (highland lackies) of the Lowland Scots (the language of the land) Lairds who saw a profit in sheep and not in people.
I am
a born Caithnessian, but brought up in Perthshire, where the Highland Clans, my own included would come to the South Inch in Perth annualy to settle their differences
in front of the King by having a pitched to the death 30 man a side Battles, they spoke Gaelic, but the Clan chiefs were all "educated" men and got most of their Education from the City of Edinburgh. But I digress.
I do not speak Gaelic, I have no need for Gaelic, I would like to learn Gaelic, but it is not my most important priority. I like to hear Gaelic spoken and sung, but I do not understand it.
Having worked in the Civil Service I was at one time the Transport Manager for HM Customs and Excise for Scotland N Ireland & Wales, so I had lots for dealing with our Welsh Celtic Cousins, they have a two tier system that all Civil Service forms come in both English and in native Welsh.....a nightmare to a non Welsh speaker. Many of my Welsh colleagues said to me this system was crazy, I can only take their word for that.
Rant over, keep up the Music WBG and the non Lithianian football team in Edinburgh for the Cup :lol:
Our National Poet was a Lowland Scot not a Gael
weeboyagee
28-Jan-07, 21:19
Not sure about the national Anthem though,...Ireland can sing theirs in English and Gaelic, but I don't think its necessary we have to do the same, we can sing it in english and gaelic if people choose to I guess.
The Scots can sing both in Gaelic and English as I suggested but Gaelic should be the first language for the National Anthem - and there are LOADS of songs in Gaelic that would fit the bill for our National Anthem - a lot more than the English language songs - the Welsh are the same - both languages but Welsh is first - regardless if the singer, native to Wales is Welsh speaking or not.
It is definitely a symbol of identity - and yes, I know that the English language Anthem would be too but Gaelic more so.
WBG :cool:
weeboyagee
28-Jan-07, 21:42
But IMO Gaelic never was Scotlands National Language.
Ach, Golach - lek yer ability tae see the better team in the football world - yer needin yer specs biye! I can't see where I said that it was Scotlands National Language.
This is what I said:
a Gaelic National Anthem first - well recognised as the country's "native" language (not English) and the translated version second
I am referring to the fact that the main language native to Scotland (English was native to England - although this was a developed language also!..) was Gaelic. Without going into the history of Scotland also - a quarter of a million people speaking Gaelic is nothing like the estimates of the figure that this had declined from over the previous 100 years! Gaelic has the best case in support of being Scotland's native (not national - since it was never spoken by all people in the nation at any time) language.
Scotland was made up of Celts, Scots, Picts and Norsemen.
Yer forgetting the Hibees (erm,....the Celtic link ;)!)!!!! We couldn't have been a nation without you guys! Your ancestors are guilty of bringing the language to our shores!
Gaelic is a West Highland tongue, Scotland has many tongues, Caithness was origionaly ruled and inhabited by the Earls of Zetland, their native tongue was Norse not Gaelic. Gaelic came into Caithness via the Highland Clearances and from the peoples of Wester Ross being driven from their crofts by the (highland lackies) of the Lowland Scots (the language of the land) Lairds who saw a profit in sheep and not in people.
Don't disagree with any of that - erm,....thought we weren't going to get a history of Scotland? Gaelic in the times before it was removed (BEFORE the clearances) from the greater part of the land (through the prohibition orders following the crushing of the rebellion) was right over to the eastern parts of the country, south as well!
....I would like to learn Gaelic, but it is not my most important priority.
now that's the bit I like. You know how many people are like you Golach but DO have a longing and wish to make it a priority but we don't accommodate them propery??
Having worked in the Civil Service I was at one time the Transport Manager for HM Customs and Excise for Scotland N Ireland & Wales, so I had lots for dealing with our Welsh Celtic Cousins, they have a two tier system that all Civil Service forms come in both English and in native Welsh.....a nightmare to a non Welsh speaker. Many of my Welsh colleagues said to me this system was crazy, I can only take their word for that.
I agree - they should be in Welsh only and force the country to learn the language!!!! Seriously - how can it be a nightmare system for the non-Welsh speaker? The non-welsh speaker deals with the English documentation, the Welsh speaker deals with the welsh documentation? And why can't the Welsh speaker have the documentation in their own language - there are enough of them to demand it at 0.5m of them!!!
My rant over for the moment too! Off to Dunfermline at the weekend to do what the boys in blue couldn't do - and I was at the match!
Our National Poet was a Lowland Scot not a Gael
I am very proud of Burns and his contribution to our heritage BUT by many times over our Gaelic bards made a much greater literary contribution to the heritage of our country than our scots or english language writers! He may be accorded as our National Bard but there are a lot of Gaelic Bards who would have given him a run for his money in terms of quality and quantity!
What ye sayin' now then? Eh?.....prod,...prod.....
WBG :cool:
I am not sure if this is strictly true, I am not arguing the point but how easy is it to prove a form of Gaelic was never spoken in Caithness. There is a definitive line going from the north coast to east coast on a map where you can see the name changes and it is often though to be a seperation of Norse and Picts. But I would think a more likely explanation is that the places in Caithness named in Norse are places that have been renamed or newly named at some point in time by the Norse, I mean it makes sense if your moving in and taking over then you make your own names for stuff and as the Norse were responsible for setting up many farms which grew into small villages and towns then they are most likely to name them. The Norse were not the first people in Caithness that evident just by the amount of Cairns in Caithness. So I am not sure how we can say Gaelic or a form of it was never spoken in Caithness? The county's name itself is Pictish is it not? Just something I am not clear on because I read this in another post and it puzzled me at how a conclusion was found that Norse or whatever is the first spoken language in Caithness? It is believed that the Picts had a Celtic language that has not survived and theories are that Gaelic crept in as the language in Pictland at some point long before the Vikings arrived. I guess its not something we can say for certain as there is no real archeological evidence to prove it.
There are Norse place names over all of Caithness, any town ending in "bster" or "ster", that is norse for "farm", there are plenty of them in the west of the county. There is a line east of which there are very few Gaelic place names.
The first people to inhabit Caithness arrived here around 4,000 BC, they probably originated in France or Spain, they didn't speak Gaelic, we call them the Picts. The Gaelic speaking Celts arrived in southern Britain around 500 years BC. Caithness is named after the Catti, they were from Germany and arrived here via Holand around the first century AD for the same reason as the Celts were moving into Scotland from the other direction, with the Romans hot on their heels, they didn't speak Gaelic either. Around 900 years later the non Gaelic speaking Vikings invaded.
Caithness has Celtic influences, the Picts and the Celts and the Catti will have intermingled, certainly in the west of the county and the Gaelic language would have dominated being the more advanced but the Caithness dialect is most definitely Norse and Gaelic was never widely used in the east of the county.
The Gaelic name for Caithness "gallaibh" means "land of the foreigner", or land of the non-gael.
Its kind of interesting that the Caithness dialect is sprinkled with borrowings from Gaelic and that many users don't recognise their origin. It tends to suggest a pretty good past familiarity with the language.
It looks as if Gaelic would have been the main working language for the ordinary people in Caithness for the better part of a thousand years so the case for its promotion is very strong. It was also the common language for most of the population to the south and west of the County and there had to be strong business and social interaction with these areas.
Gall, the root of Gallaibh, Gaelic for Caithness also occurs in the old name for the Western Isles, Innse Gall or Island of the Norsemen. The use of Gall to denote a lowlander is a more modern interpretation. During the 19th. century the map makers whio came to Caithness could only have obtained their place names from the locals who obviously had Gaelic and the fact that some of the names were of Norse origin doesn't necessarily follow that the informants were monoglot English speakers.
Writers in the mid 18th. century stated that east of a line between Wick and Thurso English was the main tongue but all the ministers had to be bi lingual. By the 1891 census Gaelic speakers were down to 4000 individuals or 11% of the population. ( I don't think the County has been so well stocked since then). So again the case for a Gaelic resurgence and identity in Caithness is a very good one and can only add value to the area.
Jeemag_USA
29-Jan-07, 00:01
There are Norse place names over all of Caithness, any town ending in "bster" or "ster", that is norse for "farm", there are plenty of them in the west of the county. There is a line east of which there are very few Gaelic place names.
Yeah I am pretty well educated on Caithness place names having lived there for 33 years since birth :)
But appreciate your other info, I have read all the same stuff on different sites and wikipedia. Most of which are points of view of several different historians or writers. There is no proof positive to say Gaelic was never spoken in the easter part of the county, its an erroneous statement to say "Gaelic was never spoken".
It is possible between the time of Colombus to the invasion of the Norse that Pictland was influenced by the Gaelic tongue. Saying that there is no hard evidence to say it was or wasn't. As the user above says, thee was probably interaction between the Picts and Gaels, undoubtedly and they had to communicate, Colombus himself wrote that he needed a translator to converese with the Picts, therefore it would be safe to assume there were people speaking in two tongues and after the 6th century Gaelic could have taken up a place within the Pictish tongue. I can't see how anyone, a historian or orger can say "never been spoken" with no proof. Its merely conjecture and personal opinion of some travelling writers.
Metalattakk
29-Jan-07, 00:13
In reply to Metalattakk,s comments, where he asks "define your own language" obviously my first language is Welsh, being born and bred in Wales. My education consisted of Welsh history-English history, Welsh Geography-English Geography etc, every school subject was doubled up by the Welsh version of that subject, teachers had to be bilingual. Even French lessons is translated to Welsh rather than English, on the simplistic fact that Welsh is our first language. In this context I had to sit double the exams of England, Scotland and Ireland, but I was proud to do this for my own identity of being Welsh. Therefore does this answer the question of "define your own language" or are we duty bound to only speak English?
No you misunderstand. I asked you to explain what you meant by saying "your own language". Sorry for any confusion.
As others have stated (and some others have contested!) I believe that the part of Caithness I was born and brought up in, and have lived all my life in, has never, ever had Gaelic as it's native language.
I feel literally no affinity with Gaelic, and I have no desire to learn it or understand it, nor would I accept it to be foisted upon me. In fact, given the chance I'd rather learn more about the Old Norse language which still is so prominent in much of our county.
With all due respect to the posters in this thread, I have never known the Gaelic language to be spoken in Caithness. I've got a few years on Weeboyagee -but not that many.
I think the Gaelic language is a hugely expressive one, especially in song. I thoroughly enjoy hearing the language being spoken & sung - unless I am excluded entirely. I am also quite prepared to leave it there.
I've had enough difficulty over the years making my Caithness dialect understandable at seminars & meetings south of the Ord & being ridiculed for the odd slip of tongue. Whether this has been due to the Gaelic influence, I don't know. However, I've been heartened, quite often, to realise that Glaswegians are the absolute worst at making themselves understood - apparently they don't even try.
Which is why I object to the roadsigns between Inverness & Dingwall giving priority to the Gaelic language. No wonder Victor, the originator of the thread here, is confused - along with a lot of our Eastern European visitors/workers.
I'm quite happy with my own language, the Caithness dialect. Why would we choose Gaelic over any other language spoken in Caithness down through the centuries? As we move through time, our language has evolved enormously along with our culture, music etc. Why ask the spoken tongue to stand still?
I am blond, blue-eyed, with a Norse name and recent ancestry originating in the Aberdeen area and can identify with the Norwegian language just as well as any other. Our (today's) language is derived from many sources, with Celtic, French, Latin and Norse influences prevailing.
Can anyone say they have a pure language? If you care to analyse many of the words we speak here in Caithness, it turns out very interesting indeed.
For every day use, I am quite happy with my Caithness dialect which in itself is being watered down extensively with having to make ourselves understood in our daily lives.
I love the Gaelic language and enjoy seeing and hearing words which have a beauty all of their own but that doesn't mean it is "my" language more than any other.
weeboyagee
29-Jan-07, 11:11
With all due respect to the posters in this thread, I have never known the Gaelic language to be spoken in Caithness. I've got a few years on Weeboyagee -but not that many.
Awww, thanks Moira ;)
Which is why I object to the roadsigns between Inverness & Dingwall giving priority to the Gaelic language. No wonder Victor, the originator of the thread here, is confused - along with a lot of our Eastern European visitors/workers.
I don't think that Victor is confused at all - I think that victor is asking the question should we be doing more for our language? I see no point in his posting where he states or refers to confusion - he is a Welsh speaker before an English speaker and therefore I believe, understands full well the ability to accommodate two languages in the same country.
Why are you confused when you see Gaelic and English on a roadsign? Read the English, ignore the Gaelic - they are in two different colours to help you as well. Canada does fine with French and English (oh dear, another tinder box.....!)
As for the Eastern Europeans and the other visitors - they can do the same - read the English - and appreciate the Gaelic. The folks complaining about being "confused" about the two languages I think have a bigger bee in their bonnet - the spending of the money on these signs! That's a topic for another day!
Suas leis a Ghaidhlig!
WBG :cool:
peter macdonald
29-Jan-07, 20:14
Weeboyagee As your post was relating to the languages of Scotland I thought i would post this piece of Norn from about 1700 It was this language the common fowkies used around the north east side of Caithness until a western germanic dialect called English became common
Favor i ir i chimrie, Helleur ir i nam thite,
gilla cosdum thite cumma, veya thine mota vara gort
o yurn sinna gort i chimrie,
ga vus da on da dalight brow vora.
Firgive vus sinna vora
sin vee Firgive sindara mutha vus,
lyv vus ye i tumtation, min delivera vus fro olt ilt, Amen.
As you would have figured its the lords prayer
(often used around Gorgie these days methinks!!)
All best P M
It is obvious, being Welsh akin to the Scots I have opened up a can of worms regarding this subject, it is clear that the majority of Scots need their own language, their own identity and their own national anthem. To me Flower of Scotland, when will we see your likes again is identical to Hen wlad fy nhadau. both brave countries fought and died for their own piece of ground. I was fortunate to be sent to Caithness during the early 1970's (at 19 years of age i thought at that time it was punishment) but Caithness has left a mark on me, I have visited since on an annual basis and in the future would love to make Caithness my retirement home. To me Caithness is the most friendly country in Britain, is that because i am Welsh or is it because I love the people of Caithness and love the area so much. One thing I have never found out, when i walked into the Com Bar or any other bar in Thurso nobody stopped speaking Welsh? They all spoke a language that I understood which was 'ha ye getin on chick'
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