View Full Version : Woolwich possible terrorist attack.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/police-respond-serious-incident-woolwich
rich62_uk
22-May-13, 21:05
EDL are on the streets in Woolwich tonight at 9. I think trouble is brewing :( .
apparently on liveleak there saying its a beheading on uk soldier in broad day light
I was sick of what was on the TV this afternoon, so thought I would turn to the news channel. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
orkneycadian
22-May-13, 21:16
Probably all a big misunderstanding. All those witnesses in broad daylight might have been mistaken, and all that video and photo evidence could be faked. Best let them go as soon as they are fit to leave hospital, in case the police have wrongfully harrassed them, and possibly spoiled their day.
Probably all a big misunderstanding. All those witnesses in broad daylight might have been mistaken, and all that video and photo evidence could be faked. Best let them go as soon as they are fit to leave hospital, in case the police have wrongfully harrassed them, and possibly spoiled their day.Never a more true word, spoken in jest. LETS HOPE NOT. It's about time this government opened it's eyes.
rich62_uk
22-May-13, 22:07
They (the terrorist) were shot and killed at the scene. Been following this and it really was a cowardly attack as they ran him over to disable him then attacked him. Nothing new with the cowardly attack though as thats the kind they like.
Tubthumper
22-May-13, 22:27
No. Planting a bomb in a car at the side of the road is cowardly. These guys stood and waited for the cops to shoot them. Mental but not cowardly.
rich62_uk
22-May-13, 22:30
They did not give the man a chance to defend himself they ran him over then while on the floor they killed him. That is cowardly. As for being mental I agree, mental fanatical terrorists.
I dont think they are dead Rich
rich62_uk
22-May-13, 22:32
The reason I said that is I heard a report where an eye witness to the whole tragic event said they were shot and we now know are dead. It has not been confirmed and you are right they could still be alive.
Tubthumper
22-May-13, 22:38
Sorry duplicate post.
The EDL is now on the streets of Woolwich wearing balaclavas and charging police lines
rich62_uk
22-May-13, 22:56
Yes Squidge I read over 40 in one place alone.
I have been watching it on Sky News and twitter. There are up to 150 and they are being filmed laughing and joking outside a pub. Honestly have they no respect. There are reports that a journalist has been attacked and that a mosque has been set on fire.
The terrible act of this afternoon which has had me in tears today is born in the warped twisted brain of people poisoned by hate. The idea that the despicable individuals responsible are representative of British Muslims and Islam itself is as ridiculous as the idea that the EDL running around on the streets of woolwich tonight in balaclavas setting fire to a mosque and attacking the police and urging people to buy guns and arm themselves represent me.
This whole day has been an appalling lesson of what happens when hate arrives on our streets.
cptdodger
23-May-13, 00:22
It is bad enough losing a member of your family in any circumstance, however, for it to happen in such a public manner, and such an atrocious way, must be absolutely horrendous for the family. Deepest condolences to them, and may that poor soul rest in peace.
My thoughts are with the family and friends of the victim.
They (the terrorist) were shot and killed at the scene. Been following this and it really was a cowardly attack as they ran him over to disable him then attacked him. Nothing new with the cowardly attack though as thats the kind they like.
They are both alive in hospital.
These two were no more Muslims than the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians, or the IRA were Catholics, or the UDA were Protestants
Nick Robinson on the BBC was quick to claim "They were wearing Islamic clothing and were shouting 'Allahu Akbar' as they beheaded their victim…" But… both spoke with south London accents, not one interviewed eyewitness has reported them shouting Allahu akbar, and they were dressed in ordinary clothing the same as any of us would wear, jeans, T-shirts, etc.
To be honest I'm struggling to see this as 'terrorism'. It was a horrific, shocking, and brutal killing that all civilised people will condemn, yes, but we have been at war for over a decade, so is the death of a soldier 'terrorism', or is it an act of war?
Its about time the government opened its eyes to what's really going on. We all know that these men probably entered the country as asylum seekers or possibly on student visas. The government needs to put a stop to letting these people in the country it is that simple. It's bad enough the sickening crimes that some of the British public commit nevermind attacks on British citizens and armed forces by scum like this. David Cameron needs to grow a pair of balls and say enough is enough and do something.
Its about time the government opened its eyes to what's really going on. We all know that these men probably entered the country as asylum seekers or possibly on student visas. The government needs to put a stop to letting these people in the country it is that simple.
Until the facts are published all of that is speculation.
I'm Irish. My country has a long record of terror attacks against Britain. Should I have not been 'allowed in'?
The situation is completely different. All I am saying is the government needs to take a tougher stance even if they were "homegrown" terrorists. One of the men said sorry that women and children had to witness tha attack but that it has happened in their country. Tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye, and telling us to get rid of our government. They don't exactly sound like salt of the earth British citizens to me.
Alice in Blunderland
23-May-13, 10:09
Its about time the government opened its eyes to what's really going on.
What exactly is going on ? This has not been fully determined yet. Once the full facts are known then and only then can any action be taken.
We all know that these men probably entered the country as asylum seekers or possibly on student visas.
Again has that been proven yet or is this another assumption fueled by highly accurate reports on the TV and Newspapers.
The government needs to put a stop to letting these people in the country it is that simple.
By these people who are you referring to asylum seekers, students ? or just 'foreigners' in general.
It's bad enough the sickening crimes that some of the British public commit never mind attacks on British citizens and armed forces by scum like this. David Cameron needs to grow a pair of balls and say enough is enough and do something.
Agreed there are lots of sickening crimes committed regularly by home grown idiots however I think given that David Camerons wife produced a lovely baby daughter not that long ago we can safely say his balls or equipment in that area is fine as it is, its his policies and staffing of Border Security that may need to be looked at among many other things.
Until the facts are published all of that is speculation.
I agree.
I'm Irish. My country has a long record of terror attacks against Britain. Should I have not been 'allowed in'?
Shhheeeesh Flynn you will now have some folks baying for your blood, wanting you rounded up, put on a boat and shipped back to where you came from following that admission ;)
The situation is completely different.
How is it different Flynn by his own admission admits he is from a country that once carried out terrible atrocities both in this country and their own, we may have a more peaceful time at present however its not always been like this.
All I am saying is the government needs to take a tougher stance even if they were "homegrown" terrorists. One of the men said sorry that women and children had to witness that attack but that it has happened in their country. Tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye, and telling us to get rid of our government. They don't exactly sound like salt of the earth British citizens to me.
No they dont but we also have to wait until all the facts are known before we start any form of action. Knee jerk reactions are not the way to handle this.IMHO.
The guy speking to the camera sounded pretty English to me.
Sound to me like some people are trying to defend or justify what has happened to this soldier. All aim doing is voicing my opinion. But I forgot on here you're not allowed one. Just ask yourself if this poor young soldier was your brother would you be so quick to jump to his murderers defence and say well let's give them a chance. They murdered him no doubt about its all on camera they literally had blood on their hands. These men's political and religious beliefs obviously played a huge part in it.
Duncansby
23-May-13, 12:45
Sound to me like some people are trying to defend or justify what has happened to this soldier. All aim doing is voicing my opinion. But I forgot on here you're not allowed one. Just ask yourself if this poor young soldier was your brother would you be so quick to jump to his murderers defence and say well let's give them a chance. They murdered him no doubt about its all on camera they literally had blood on their hands. These men's political and religious beliefs obviously played a huge part in it.
Using that logic should we hold Norwegian Christians responsible for the actions of the fascist Anders Breivik? No of course we shouldn't!
Not one person has 'defended' the horrendous actions of those two men yesterday!
Sound to me like some people are trying to defend or justify what has happened to this soldier. All aim doing is voicing my opinion. But I forgot on here you're not allowed one. Just ask yourself if this poor young soldier was your brother would you be so quick to jump to his murderers defence and say well let's give them a chance. They murdered him no doubt about its all on camera they literally had blood on their hands. These men's political and religious beliefs obviously played a huge part in it.Thats well out of order dandod. No one is justifying or defending the perpetrators of this horrific act. What they ARE doing is pointing out that we do not know who they are. Your assertions are simply guesses and do no one any good least of all the family of the poor lad who may have had turned the news on last night and watched a bunch of ignorant numpties spouting the same ill informed nonsense that you are spouting, laughing and joking about what they would do to muslims and asylum seekers outside a pub in the name of their son. John Reid said something earlier which was that this is not about british people against muslims, asylum seekers or black people it is about all of us against terrorists.
Using that logic should we hold Norwegian Christians responsible for the actions of the fascist Anders Breivik? No of course we shouldn't!
Not one person has 'defended' the horrendous actions of those two men yesterday!
Or British Christians responsible for Savile, Glitter, Hall, etc.
Their religious beliefs are most likely to blame when they were hacking the poor man to pieces they were shouting "alluha Akbar"god is greatest.
Their religious beliefs are most likely to blame when they were hacking the poor man to pieces they were shouting "alluha Akbar"god is greatest.
Perhaps you should let the Judge and Jury do the trying.
Duncansby
23-May-13, 13:02
Their religious beliefs are most likely to blame when they were hacking the poor man to pieces they were shouting "alluha Akbar"god is greatest.
You didn't answer my question. Anders Brevik also cited his 'religious' beliefs as to why he did what he did.
Their religious beliefs are most likely to blame when they were hacking the poor man to pieces they were shouting "alluha Akbar"god is greatest.
No eyewitnesses have said this. Even on the videos I have seen they did not say it. Only the BBC's Nick Robinson said it, and he claimed it came from 'Whitehall sources'. He also claimed they were wearing Islamic clothing. Funny that, I didn't know jeans, T-shirts and anoraks were 'Islamic clothing'.
Thats well out of order dandod. No one is justifying or defending the perpetrators of this horrific act. What they ARE doing is pointing out that we do not know who they are. Your assertions are simply guesses and do no one any good least of all the family of the poor lad who may have had turned the news on last night and watched a bunch of ignorant numpties spouting the same ill informed nonsense that you are spouting, laughing and joking about what they would do to muslims and asylum seekers outside a pub in the name of their son. John Reid said something earlier which was that this is not about british people against muslims, asylum seekers or black people it is about all of us against terrorists.I for one am not laughing and joking about it. But something has to be done. This is my opinion if you don't like it then dontpayany attention to my posts like I ignore some of the stuff I see posted on here on a daily basis
Very poor marksmanship by the Policeperson doing the terrorist shooting.
Very poor marksmanship by the Policeperson doing the terrorist shooting.
It was very good shooting. They're both alive and available for questioning.
Very poor marksmanship by the Policeperson doing the terrorist shooting.We don't know that yet. I don't think injury details have been released. Apparently it was a wifey wot was potting them, maybe she wanted to make sure that their virgins were redundant!
It was very good shooting. They're both alive and available for questioning.
Sorry Flynn, I thought you would know better. There is only one way to disable someone with a firearm. (I think you watch too many films).
Sorry Flynn, I thought you would know better. There is only one way to disable someone with a firearm. (I think you watch too many films).
Only one of them had a gun.
Are you folks not getting the news up there or something?
Only one of them had a gun.
Are you folks not getting the news up there or something?
To be clear, there is only one way to disable someone by using a firearm on them.
They were both on the intelligence radar, why has only one been named then.
Alice in Blunderland
23-May-13, 17:31
Sound to me like some people are trying to defend or justify what has happened to this soldier.
DEFINITELY NOT !! I in no way am trying to defend or justify what happened however I think that as in all cases we have to get all the facts right. Yes a man has died, Yes in terrible circumstances and Yes this should not have happened but lets not muddle fact with fiction or jump to any conclusions.
All aim doing is voicing my opinion.
As are others in this thread right opinion or wrong opinion that's what a discussion forum is about.
But I forgot on here you're not allowed one.
What utter drivel :roll: Put your dummy back in and voice your opinion but expect others to come back at you with theirs.
Just ask yourself if this poor young soldier was your brother would you be so quick to jump to his murderers defence and say well let's give them a chance. They murdered him no doubt about its all on camera they literally had blood on their hands. These men's political and religious beliefs obviously played a huge part in it.
If this was my brother ,uncle, relative, friend or the bloke down the street I would still say the same... let the FACTS be known then let the correct procedures allow justice to be served.
cptdodger
23-May-13, 18:08
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22644857
The soldier, horrendously murdered yesterday, was named as Lee Rigby who was 25 years old. He leaves a two year old son, and a heartbroken family.
At this moment in time, that is what is important.
Rest In Peace x
macadamia
23-May-13, 23:10
A Poem on another website by Ian Yates. I know nothing about Ian, but I think we all sing from the same hymn-sheet.
Ian Yates
Just out for a walk after an early stack
Not looking for trouble not watching my back
Mothers with prams holding hands with their kids
Not paying attention to the car as it skids
Caught completely off guard not expecting what comes
One man with a knife another with guns.
No chance of defence no chance to fight back
Looking for help as the cowards attack
An angel arrives as the light turns to grey
A woman attempts to steer attackers away
My last thought of ‘Thank You’ never strays from my brain
As my body shuts down and I feel no more pain.
I look to my left and I look to my right
Thousands of squaddies are all that’s in sight
Uniforms are crisp and their faces are clean
No sign of anger or hate to be seen
As if by command they salute all as one
The RSM smiles, says ‘Welcome home son’.
They were both on the intelligence radar, why has only one been named then.
It is about time everyone on 'the intelligence radar' was rounded up and interned. Some bloke on the telly this morning said it's hard to identify the red flags with these people. To me, the fact they are on 'the intelligence radar' is the red flag.'
And to those who will say "oh no what about my freedom?, I won't be able to watch porn anymore without my mum finding out"
Ask me if I care.
It is about time everyone on 'the intelligence radar' was rounded up and interned. Some bloke on the telly this morning said it's hard to identify the red flags with these people. To me, the fact they are on 'the intelligence radar' is the red flag.'
And to those who will say "oh no what about my freedom?, I won't be able to watch porn anymore without my mum finding out"
Ask me if I care.
I'll assume you're talking about the government monitoring and recording the population's internet/telecommunications.
I disagree with that. 'Terrorists' do what they do because they don't like our way of life, our freedoms, and they want to change that way of life and freedom. To do what you advocate - if that is what you're advocating - is a huge change to our way of life and freedom, and would be capitulating to terrorism.
I'll assume you're talking about the government monitoring and recording the population's internet/telecommunications.
I disagree with that. 'Terrorists' do what they do because they don't like our way of life, our freedoms, and they want to change that way of life and freedom. To do what you advocate - if that is what you're advocating - is a huge change to our way of life and freedom, and would be capitulating to terrorism.
Yes I understand your argument.
Being on the intelligence radar does not make one a terrorist. Attending radical, fundamentalist meetings or groups does not make one a terrorist. Holding the views that some people hold does not make one a terrorist. Carrying out acts of terror does. The views that people within some of these groups hold are abhorrent to me and millions of others but they are not all terrorists. Locking people up for what they think is surely not what any of us want. I watched this horror unfold unaware that I knew this family years ago like I watched the Deal Barracks horror unfold unaware that a laddie I knew was a victim. I am sad. In the intervening years we have made peace with those who would have been on the list then and I hope and pray the same happens in the future with those who will be on the list now
neilsermk1
24-May-13, 11:04
I'll assume you're talking about the government monitoring and recording the population's internet/telecommunications.
I disagree with that. 'Terrorists' do what they do because they don't like our way of life, our freedoms, and they want to change that way of life and freedom. To do what you advocate - if that is what you're advocating - is a huge change to our way of life and freedom, and would be capitulating to terrorism.
So at what point do you take a stand, and say enough is enough. Until scum like that realise there will be severe sanctions taken this type of action will continue.
I am prepared to accept some changes to my personal liberties to ensure scum like that have no oxygen to breath in this country.
Even if there are severe sanctions it will not prevent this type of action. People who carry out these attacks ard prepared for severe sanctions, prison, death. Do you not understand that? If we allow the fundamental personal freedoms we have to be curtailed in a wholesale manner then 'they' are already winning.
Unbelievable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2aAH6k7e38
Unbelievable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2aAH6k7e38
Gosh, British citizens holding a peaceful demonstration. Shocking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9QBX4U9qE
Gosh, British citizens holding a peaceful demonstration. Shocking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU9QBX4U9qE I never said it was shocking Flynn. But I believe that if you live in a country, you should abide by their way of life. The people demonstrating do not want to, as is made very clear by their views. If they do not like how we dress etc etc, then why are they here. This is what I can't understand.
I never said it was shocking Flynn. But I believe that if you live in a country, you should abide by their way of life. The people demonstrating do not want to, as is made very clear by their views. If they do not like how we dress etc etc, then why are they here. This is what I can't understand.
You don'r recall the poll tax marches then? Calling for the government to stand down? We live in a free country, that means every citizen is permitted to protest.
You don'r recall the poll tax marches then? Calling for the government to stand down? We live in a free country, that means every citizen is permitted to protest. Different altogether, and you know it. This is an extreme religious sect, trying to impose their beliefs on others. If we went to their country and started spouting about our beliefs and wearing bikinis at the same time, we would probably be imprisoned or worse. I asked, why are they here, if they want to live a different life altogether from what is the norm, for here.
Different altogether, and you know it. This is an extreme religious sect, trying to impose their beliefs on others. If we went to their country and started spouting about our beliefs and wearing bikinis at the same time, we would probably be imprisoned or worse. I asked, why are they here, if they want to live a different life altogether from what is the norm, for here.
Christians try to impose their beliefs on us all the time too. Even though we are a secular society, and not a theocracy.
rob murray
24-May-13, 16:32
What seems to be emerging is that the people involved were known as extremists, just as its know that extremists have been trying to influence islamic youth to conduct acts of violence which have been strongly condemned by the vast majority of UK Muslims who recognise the difference between voicing an opinion ( ie troops out of Afghanistan etc which they are free and entitled to do ) and inciting actual acts of violence ...thats not free speech..thats an abuse of free speech and its breaking the law full stop.
Christians try to impose their beliefs on us all the time too. Even though we are a secular society, and not a theocracy.I'm not Christian, so wouldn't know. Who is us.
Who is us.
The British public.
Filling up. Watching the soldiers family on the news. thoughts with those poor souls.
Even if there are severe sanctions it will not prevent this type of action. People who carry out these attacks ard prepared for severe sanctions, prison, death. Do you not understand that? If we allow the fundamental personal freedoms we have to be curtailed in a wholesale manner then 'they' are already winning.
That's why we should get rid of them. There is no defence. The radicalising clerics that number in the hundreds in the UK and are well known to the authorities should be rounded up and thrown out. Then perhaps we can do something for the poor young men that are in their thrall. We are being soundly let down by successive Governments whose primary purpose is to protect us. I've had enough of it.
That's why we should get rid of them. There is no defence. The radicalising clerics that number in the hundreds in the UK and are well known to the authorities should be rounded up and thrown out. Then perhaps we can do something for the poor young men that are in their thrall. We are being soundly let down by successive Governments whose primary purpose is to protect us. I've had enough of it. Totally agree
That's why we should get rid of them. There is no defence\
Then you are no different to the two extremists who killed Lee Rigby. They had no regard for our freedom, and neither do you.
http://forum.caithness.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by squidge http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=1029876#post1029876)
Even if there are severe sanctions it will not prevent this type of action. People who carry out these attacks ard prepared for severe sanctions, prison, death. Do you not understand that? If we allow the fundamental personal freedoms we have to be curtailed in a wholesale manner then 'they' are already winning.
That's why we should get rid of them. There is no defence. The radicalising clerics that number in the hundreds in the UK and are well known to the authorities should be rounded up and thrown out. Then perhaps we can do something for the poor young men that are in their thrall. We are being soundly let down by successive Governments whose primary purpose is to protect us. I've had enough of it.
I have to agree as well. Enoch Powell was rediculed and hounded out of parlaiment for saying (one day the streets of Britain will run red with blood) .. how right he was. something must be done , sometime soon there will be enough radical muslims in this country to turn the uk into a muslim country . only then will they be happy . perhaps when that happens they wont like it here and go back to their mother country.
\
Then you are no different to the two extremists who killed Lee Rigby. They had no regard for our freedom, and neither do you.
I cant believe what a tosser you really are
orkneycadian
24-May-13, 23:30
Not sure why all the fuss. We wanted to live in a liberalist state, where people can freely express their opinions without persecution, and now we can. It appears that now we even have people who do "interviews" for the camera, whilst waiting for the police to turn up to escort them to their comfy room in Her Majesty's Ritz, where there are such luxuries as colour TV (I guess you can't get Black and White on Freeview or Sky...), 3 square meals a day, free gym membership, ready access to recreational drugs, mobile phones and coaching tips on criminality.
We obviously have a superior society when it is now possible to be so liberal that even murderers do not bother to run after committing the crime, and just hang around waiting for a free courtesy bus to the hotel.
So it surprises me that now, when we have this degree of liberalisation, that some folk have decided they do not like it. All these guys have done is express their displeasure with world politics, and for some reason, folk seem unhappy with their actions. They, meanwhile, will be tucked up in a nice warm hospital bed, with their own personal armed bodyguards, and looking forward to having the next 20 years in comparative luxury, never having to do a hands turn, all on us!
Yes, thats worked well.
cptdodger
24-May-13, 23:51
\
Then you are no different to the two extremists who killed Lee Rigby. They had no regard for our freedom, and neither do you.
That is such an unfair statement Flynn.
We need to remove people like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22650053
To stop people like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22656430
Going through the unimaginable tragedy and pain they will face for their entire lives.
You want freedom ? At what cost ? Now, I have absolutely nothing to hide, so I could not care less who monitors my phone calls, internet usage or anything else for that matter. If it prevents one death, it's worth it.
And I am really sorry to say this Flynn, but how dare you suggest, Ducati, me or anybody else who firmly believes these extremists should be removed forthwith from this country, are no better than those murdering whatevers. That is just out of order.
As I told you I have seen and suffered terrorism first hand, and out of respect for this forum, I would not put in print what I would have done to these (and I use this term loosely) people.
orkneycadian
25-May-13, 00:36
Alas, CPTdodger, we are not allowed to that kind of thing anymore, or even say it, in case anyone might get offended or their civil liberties be breached. It seems its easier to put up with the crime than do anything to prevent it. :(
Alas, CPTdodger, we are not allowed to that kind of thing anymore, or even say it, in case anyone might get offended or their civil liberties be breached. It seems its easier to put up with the crime than do anything to prevent it. :(
Orky, they may well be heading for twenty years in comfort but I doubt it. They were shot, it appears, an average of four times each. Now you can quite reasonbly expect to shoot someone once and them to die (afterall that is why you shoot them) so if they survive, the likelyhood is they will have a number of important bits missing.
20 years of pain and suffering more like.
In any event, it is pretty obvious that they were not required in court. Future terrorists might bear this in mind.
We already have laws to deal with these extremist clerics. If these clerics commit crimes they MUST be arrested. But the people in the video shazzap posted are not that. They are british subjects who were demonstrating peacefully against the actions of the police. We have seen hundreds of such demonstrations by lots of different groups. Often they were wearing jeans and t shirts. And if we are going to get upset by being told we will burn in hell then we had better throw the mannie out too who stands on the street in Inverness with his bible and tells passers by the same thing.There is a bit of a problem with removing "these people" or throwing them out or sending them back or however you want to say it. At least one of "these people" was a british citizen, born here, educated here, damaged here, a product of here. I do not agree we should throw people out for holding radical views, extreme views, views shich you or i find offensive. If we do that then people like these absolute horrors of human beings are succeeding in their aims. That is not right
http://forum.caithness.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by squidge http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=1029876#post1029876)
Even if there are severe sanctions it will not prevent this type of action. People who carry out these attacks ard prepared for severe sanctions, prison, death. Do you not understand that? If we allow the fundamental personal freedoms we have to be curtailed in a wholesale manner then 'they' are already winning.
That's why we should get rid of them. There is no defence. The radicalising clerics that number in the hundreds in the UK and are well known to the authorities should be rounded up and thrown out. Then perhaps we can do something for the poor young men that are in their thrall. We are being soundly let down by successive Governments whose primary purpose is to protect us. I've had enough of it.
I have to agree as well. Enoch Powell was rediculed and hounded out of parlaiment for saying (one day the streets of Britain will run red with blood) .. how right he was. something must be done , sometime soon there will be enough radical muslims in this country to turn the uk into a muslim country . only then will they be happy . perhaps when that happens they wont like it here and go back to their mother country.
The two psychopaths who did this brutal murder are no more representative of Muslims than Anders Breivik is representative of christians.
That is such an unfair statement Flynn.
We need to remove people like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22650053
To stop people like this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22656430
Going through the unimaginable tragedy and pain they will face for their entire lives.
You want freedom ? At what cost ? Now, I have absolutely nothing to hide, so I could not care less who monitors my phone calls, internet usage or anything else for that matter. If it prevents one death, it's worth it.
And I am really sorry to say this Flynn, but how dare you suggest, Ducati, me or anybody else who firmly believes these extremists should be removed forthwith from this country, are no better than those murdering whatevers. That is just out of order.
As I told you I have seen and suffered terrorism first hand, and out of respect for this forum, I would not put in print what I would have done to these (and I use this term loosely) people.
Where are you going to 'kick out' Anjem Choudary to? He's British, born and raised.
What happened this week was two British psychopaths brutally murdered another British citizen. These weren't foreigners, they were British. And their actions had nothing to do with Islam or any foreign countries, because no foreign nationals were involved. Their aim was to sow division and hate. From a minority of comments in this thread they appear to have succeeded in that aim.
I will lump in ANYONE who would remove our freedom with the 'terrorists' who want the same. Unlike you I believe we should remain free from becoming a police state and not surrender to those who would remove our freedoms. Because make no mistake, if we remove our own freedoms in the name of 'security', then we have surrendered to these people.
I will not capitulate, because I'm British, and British people do not capitulate.
Ps. I'm from Londonderry, you think I haven't experienced terrorism?
The two psychopaths who did this brutal murder are no more representative of Muslims than Anders Breivik is representative of christians.
have to disagree there buddy, they were schooled by muslim radicals into muslim ways.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 09:48
Where are you going to 'kick out' Anjem Choudary to? He's British, born and raised.
What happened this week was two British psychopaths brutally murdered another British citizen. These weren't foreigners, they were British. And their actions had nothing to do with Islam or any foreign countries, because no foreign nationals were involved. Their aim was to sow division and hate. From a minority of comments in this thread they appear to have succeeded in that aim.
I will lump in ANYONE who would remove our freedom with the 'terrorists' who want the same. Unlike you I believe we should remain free from becoming a police state and not surrender to those who would remove our freedoms. Because make no mistake, if we remove our own freedoms in the name of 'security', then we have surrendered to these people.
I will not capitulate, because I'm British, and British people do not capitulate.
Ps. I'm from Londonderry, you think I haven't experienced terrorism?
Same old nonsense from you then Flynn. So how much freedom of speech do you think we'll enjoy if Britain becomes subject to Shariah Law? It can't happen? Well, for starters they've already got their own Parliament and everything's going to plan. How many Muslims do you believe will choose British Law over Shariah? Can you see any of them disobeying the commands of Allah, if push becomes shove. FGS, didn't you watch the video in which the disciples stated their intentions? It's all a question of building up the numbers and it's the likes of you who encourage it, imo.
Freedom of speech? Enjoy it whilst it lasts folks.
orkneycadian
25-May-13, 09:53
Orky, they may well be heading for twenty years in comfort but I doubt it. They were shot, it appears, an average of four times each. Now you can quite reasonbly expect to shoot someone once and them to die (afterall that is why you shoot them) so if they survive, the likelyhood is they will have a number of important bits missing.
20 years of pain and suffering more like.
In any event, it is pretty obvious that they were not required in court. Future terrorists might bear this in mind.
Its maybe unfortunate then that a couple of quid was not invested in rounds 9 and 10, along with 10 minutes of a police boss or judge's time to review the extensive video evidence to conclude "Yep, that went fine - Everybody back to work"
Instead, our liberated citizens are receiving the best healthcare the country can provide for them on the NHS, and the legal aid lawyers are probably already lining up and preparing their cases for the defence. Somewhere in there, will no doubt be cries that they have been framed, wrongly accused, wrongly identified or even discriminated against. No doubt their human rights have been infringed, and I am sure we will soon be reading that they were simply a couple of halal butchers, innocently walking home after a busy day of inhumane animal slaughtering, carrying the tools of their trade and who forgot to wash their hands on the way out the door.
Future terrorists are probably thinking "What a clever way to make sure that you get cared for by the state, without having to forego Sky TV to pay for the bedroom tax"
have to disagree there buddy, they were schooled by muslim radicals into muslim ways.
Murder is no more a 'Muslim way' than it is a Christian way. To use your logic we should kick all Catholics out and shut down their churches because they are 'schooling people' into the Christian ways of paedophilia and sex abuse.
Same old nonsense from you then Flynn. So how much freedom of speech do you think we'll enjoy if Britain becomes subject to Shariah Law? It can't happen? Well, for starters they've already got their own Parliament and everything's going to plan. How many Muslims do you believe will choose British Law over Shariah? Can you see any of them disobeying the commands of Allah, if push becomes shove. FGS, didn't you watch the video in which the disciples stated their intentions? It's all a question of building up the numbers and it's the likes of you who encourage it, imo.
Freedom of speech? Enjoy it whilst it lasts folks.
How much freedom of speech will we have if we capitulate to the fascist state you so desire?
The Muslim Parliament is a forum whose purpose is to debate, campaign and lobby on issues concerning the Muslim community in Britain. It is a non-governmental organisation dedicated to promoting community interests. It operates through a number of committees, each with its own remit. These committees work along with related campaign groups in the country.
As you can see, the Muslim Parliament has no more legal powers than the Women's Institute.
As you can see, the Muslim Parliament has no more legal powers than the Women's Institute.
if you believe that then all i can say is open your eyes and wake up man. way thing s are going it wont be long before they ll have a big shout . then it,ll be to late , and you will be the only one surprised
What legal powers do you think it has then Jacko
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:08
How much freedom of speech will we have if we capitulate to the fascist state you so desire?
As you can see, the Muslim Parliament has no more legal powers than the Women's Institute.
Does anyone see the irony in much of what Comrade Flynn posts? He drones on about "freedom of speech," and then proceeds to call anyone who disagrees with him a Fascist, in an attempt to shut them down! It's him who is championing that cause, not me. Doh!
And you seriously believe, that granting the Muslims a right to their own Parliament isn't the thin end of the wedge? It's a pity that instead of studying the best interests of everyone else, you don't spend a little more time thinking positively about Britons themselves. You're so consumed with hatred and anyone who can't see through you needs a trip to Specsavers. You and your ilk just don't care a damn about anything other than pushing your vile ideology.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:10
As you can see, the Muslim Parliament has no more legal powers than the Women's Institute.
if you believe that then all i can say is open your eyes and wake up man. way thing s are going it wont be long before they ll have a big shout . then it,ll be to late , and you will be the only one surprised
Well said Jacko. The only thing I would disagree with, is that Comrade Flynn will be surprised. He'll have worked his hardest to make the outcome , as you have predicted. It's deliberate.
Arent there lots of muslims who are britons? I am not seeing much thinking positively about british muslims. The people that carried out these horrible crimes were not representative of british muslims, like peter sutcliffe wasnt representative of men with beards or dennis neilsin of men who work in Jobcentres. Some men are rapists but that doesnt mean all men are rapists. See this for what it was a cruel despicable evil act by two cruel despicable people.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:19
You tell me, Squidge. I've lived and worked with hundreds of Muslims in my lifetime and I've yet to meet one who didn't declare themselves as Asian first and British second. Britain bends over backwards to accommodate Muslims and you can't see it? There's none so blind .........!
orkneycadian
25-May-13, 13:35
Does anyone see the irony in much of what Comrade Flynn posts?
Fortunately, I don't see anything in what Flynn posts now he is on the ignore list.
You tell me, Squidge. I've lived and worked with hundreds of Muslims in my lifetime and I've yet to meet one who didn't declare themselves as Asian first and British second. Britain bends over backwards to accommodate Muslims and you can't see it? There's none so blind .........!
Then I'll call you a liar. I live in an area with many thousands of Muslims, there are Asian, white English, African, West Indian, Russian, Bosnian, Spanish and many other nationalities represented in the Muslim community.
Assuming all Muslims are Asian has exposed your ignorance and blind prejudice.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:50
Fortunately, I don't see anything in what Flynn posts now he is on the ignore list.
I know how tempting that is, Orkney, but Comrade Flynn's propaganda has to be exposed for the anti-British treachery, I believe it to be.
Well said Jacko. The only thing I would disagree with, is that Comrade Flynn will be surprised. He'll have worked his hardest to make the outcome , as you have predicted. It's deliberate.
It was quite a sensible discussion until you jumped in gob first.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:53
Then I'll call you a liar. I live in an area with many thousands of Muslims, there are Asian, white, African, West Indian, Russian, Bosnian, Spanish and many other nationalities represented in the Muslim community.
Assuming all Muslims are Asian has exposed your ignorance.
Idiot! I specified Muslims of Asian descent, because they're the only ones I've met. Isn't it odd, how you spout such hatred towards Christians, but don't apply the same to the Muslim religion? Hypocrite!
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:55
It was quite a sensible discussion until you jumped in gob first.
Of course. It was dominated by you. It always is with your ilk. Freedom of speech? You don't know the meaning of the words, Comrade Flynn.
Idiot! I specified Muslims of Asian descent, because they're the only ones I've met. Isn't it odd, how you spout such hatred towards Christians, but don't apply the same to the Muslim religion? Hypocrite!
No you didn't, you quite clearly equated 'Muslim' with 'Asian'. It's there for anyone to see. Funny how the only person to be trying to gain political mileage out of Lee Rigby's appalling murder is you. Everyone else here has expressed their horror at this brutal murder, and their sympathies for Lee and his family. Everyone but you. Care to express any sympathy toward him and his family? Or are you going to continue trying to cash in on this horrific incident to further your far-right agenda?
Please quote any hatred I've directed at Christians.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 13:59
Please quote any hatred I've directed at Christians.
If anyone can be ersed to avail themselves of this information, then check out the "Atheist," thread. There's hatred by the bucket-load there.
If anyone can be ersed to avail themselves of this information, then check out the "Atheist," thread. There's hatred by the bucket-load there.
Criticism is not hatred. However, your own posts in this thread absolutely reek of hatred.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 14:07
No you didn't, you quite clearly equated 'Muslim' with 'Asian'. It's there for anyone to see. Funny how the only person to be trying to gain political mileage out of Lee Rigby's appalling murder is you. Care to express any sympathy toward him and his family? Or are you going to continue trying to cash in on this horrific incident to further your far-right agenda?
I stated I'd lived and worked with hundreds of Muslims, who declared themselves as Asian first and British second. Why would a Muslim whose roots were not in Asia, declare they were? Foolish.
Me? "Cashing in?" I've read it all now. That's your specialist subject, Comrade Flynn. I've written at great lengths about my sorrow at the barbaric death of Lee Rigby. Not that it's any of your business.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 14:09
Criticism is not hatred. However, your own posts in this thread absolutely reek of hatred.
Where have I posted any hatred towards anyone? :roll:
Meanwhile in London over 5,000 Muslims condemn Lee Rigby's murderers, express their sorrow at his loss and extend their prayers to his family. That's more than M Swanson has done.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/thousands-of-muslims-gather-in-london-to-condemn-murder-of-soldier-lee-rigby-29294815.html
I stated I'd lived and worked with hundreds of Muslims, who declared themselves as Asian first and British second. Why would a Muslim whose roots were not in Asia, declare they were? Foolish.
Me? "Cashing in?" I've read it all now. That's your specialist subject, Comrade Flynn. I've written at great lengths about my sorrow at the barbaric death of Lee Rigby. Not that it's any of your business.
Not here you haven't. Yet more excuses from you after the fact of being called out.
I'm Irish first and British second, my friends are English first and British second, I have no doubt there are many on this forum who consider themselves Scottish first and British second. Why do you single out Asians for having the same attitude? I'll tell you why, it's your blind racial prejudice, again.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 14:26
Grow up, Comrade Flynn and stop using Lee Rigby to cash-in on knocking everyone, in general, who disagrees with you and me in particular. Your last post is proof positive. Shame on you.
Grow up, Comrade Flynn and stop using Lee Rigby to cash-in on knocking everyone, in general, who disagrees with you and me in particular. Your last post is proof positive. Shame on you.
I'm not. I'm expressing my disgust at you coming into this thread and not giving a damn about the victim and his family until I called you on it. All you did was use his death to express anti-muslim prejudice. Only AFTER I pointed out you had not had the common decency to express any sympathy did you make a small comment that you had "written at great lengths about my sorrow". You know what, I don't believe you.
M Swanson
25-May-13, 14:32
Arent there lots of muslims who are britons?
Squidge asked the question and I answered it. Perhaps, she's a racist in Comrade Flynn's world too?
Not here you haven't. Yet more excuses from you after the fact of being called out.
I'll tell you why, it's your blind racial prejudice, again.
Nope! Just you trying and failing to make as much mileage as you can by accusing somebody who disagrees with you of being so. Just your blind prejudice again.
well said m swanson. and thay call us infidels ..there,s a bloody laugh and a half.
australia seem s to be taking the right steps , but then they control their own borders , not like us here open house policy s
These religious radicals want stopping in their tracks now. Who ever they are. and what ever religion they follow. If These people do not like this country and are so against what we as a nation are. Then they should go back, from were they came, and if born here, should get out. I am not talking about general politics here, but about those that are trying to change us and our way of life.
well said m swanson. and thay call us infidels .
Stop reading the TinTin books then.
I am not talking about general politics here, but about those that are trying to change us and our way of life.
Like the BNP, EDL etc?
can i borrow your s then ?? the tin tin book,s.
Like the BNP, EDL etc? Not biting, and getting into arguments with you Flynn. I have said what I think, you are not going to change my mind. As I am not yours. As I have said Religious nutters and immigration need sorting in this country. It is getting that I feel like the one who shouldn't be here. Will not reply o this thread anymore as it is like groundhog day.
You know what you all want to listen to yourselves. You squabble and bicker and call each other names like a bunch of babies. People are just people - whether they are black white or a shade or two in between.
M Swanson you may have worked and lived with many muslims but you clearly did not bother yourself to get to know any of them.
Jacko - I am trying to change things and trying to change our way of life through campaigning for scottish Independence - do I need to get out too? Shazzap you plainly didnt see the EDL stuff going on the other night when one of their "leaders" called on citizens to arm themselves, go out buy guns and arm themselves so they can shoot muslims and have their blood running through the streets. When a pile of them gathered on the streets of woolwich laughing and joking amongst themselves, congratulating themselves as to how this is a good opportunity for them to spout their own particular brand of bile. Extremism is not limited to religious groups. It is there all around us. The murder of poor Lee was the most shocking thing I have seen since .... well since that animal lifted poor April, since the battering of Baby P, since the shooting of an Indian guy in cold blood on the streets of Manchester one Christmas or since that poor teenage girl was stabbed on a bus.
All of these deaths are shocking, All of them. There are laws to cover the incitement to murder and there are laws to cover the act of murder. These men did what they did because of themselves, just like the murderers I have mentioned. What do you want? Freedom of speech so that the EDL can call for the country to buy guns and avenge the death of a soldier? but not freedom of speech for people to walk along a road and shout that the police have done a bad thing? Freedom for you guys to say that a whole group of people are potential terrorists but not freedom for a british asian person to say that the armed forces are doing bad things in afghanistan and iraq. (Muslims are not the only people that think that by the way.) Freedom for you guys to say they should bring back hanging and birching and have forced repatriation but not freedom for a brown face to say that they think our laws are too lenient and they beleive their way is better?
You witter on about being British. And about what is right for Britons and yet you want to turnyour beloved Britain into the sort of place that you want to send "these people" back to. A place where you can be imprisoned for what you think, where you can be hanged for a crime, where you can be detained without trial, where you cant demonstrate about something you feel passionate about and a place where people cant go out for fear of being arrested.
Listen to yourselves and then go speak to your local imam. Knock his door and ask him for his views on this death. Find out what islam says about this sort of thing. Go speak to the woman down the road who wears a burkha and ask her why she does that and what her views are on this death. Go and ask the young asian men for their views and their opinions and instead of listening to them through your prejudices - listen to them with your ears. You might learn something.
macadamia
25-May-13, 16:32
Well said, Squidge! I think we all understand that evil of any kind is a given, where the world is made up - as indeed are most individuals - of the capacity and the occasional reality for displaying extreme good and extreme evil. What we saw on the streets was evil, and there will always be a part of us which wants immediate and violent revenge.
Then there are others. The lady cub scout leader who told one of the recent assailants that his was a lost cause. He will remember that for the rest of his life. He will also come to reflect on the level of bravery this action took.
Also, the two young ladies who spoke to an assailant, blood still dripping from his weapons and hands, and asked if they might comfort the dying man by offering a soft voice and a touch of their hand.
These are the other side of the coin. The ones who are able to turn evil away, and put good in its place.
And they are the heroes who make the rest of our judgements, our postures, our thoughts of harm and revenge, sound as pathetic as they are.
These men will stand trial, and receive the justice of the civilised world. Not the barbarity borrowed from the cause they attempted to espouse.
Do YOU want to be a barbarian? What would YOU have done on the street, faced with a bloody murderer?
Perspective, please.
You know what you all want to listen to yourselves. You squabble and bicker and call each other names like a bunch of babies. People are just people - whether they are black white or a shade or two in between.
M Swanson you may have worked and lived with many muslims but you clearly did not bother yourself to get to know any of them.
Jacko - I am trying to change things and trying to change our way of life through campaigning for scottish Independence - do I need to get out too? Shazzap you plainly didnt see the EDL stuff going on the other night when one of their "leaders" called on citizens to arm themselves, go out buy guns and arm themselves so they can shoot muslims and have their blood running through the streets. When a pile of them gathered on the streets of woolwich laughing and joking amongst themselves, congratulating themselves as to how this is a good opportunity for them to spout their own particular brand of bile. Extremism is not limited to religious groups. It is there all around us. The murder of poor Lee was the most shocking thing I have seen since .... well since that animal lifted poor April, since the battering of Baby P, since the shooting of an Indian guy in cold blood on the streets of Manchester one Christmas or since that poor teenage girl was stabbed on a bus.
All of these deaths are shocking, All of them. There are laws to cover the incitement to murder and there are laws to cover the act of murder. These men did what they did because of themselves, just like the murderers I have mentioned. What do you want? Freedom of speech so that the EDL can call for the country to buy guns and avenge the death of a soldier? but not freedom of speech for people to walk along a road and shout that the police have done a bad thing? Freedom for you guys to say that a whole group of people are potential terrorists but not freedom for a british asian person to say that the armed forces are doing bad things in afghanistan and iraq. (Muslims are not the only people that think that by the way.) Freedom for you guys to say they should bring back hanging and birching and have forced repatriation but not freedom for a brown face to say that they think our laws are too lenient and they beleive their way is better?
You witter on about being British. And about what is right for Britons and yet you want to turnyour beloved Britain into the sort of place that you want to send "these people" back to. A place where you can be imprisoned for what you think, where you can be hanged for a crime, where you can be detained without trial, where you cant demonstrate about something you feel passionate about and a place where people cant go out for fear of being arrested.
Listen to yourselves and then go speak to your local imam. Knock his door and ask him for his views on this death. Find out what islam says about this sort of thing. Go speak to the woman down the road who wears a burkha and ask her why she does that and what her views are on this death. Go and ask the young asian men for their views and their opinions and instead of listening to them through your prejudices - listen to them with your ears. You might learn something.I did see all of this. Your right about them going back to some kind of hell in their own countries, so why are they here, when they obviously do not like it. As I said, you have your opinion, and I will have mine. Oh and by the way, I couldn't give a monkeys uncle what colour they are. Colour has nothing to do with this.
If you saw it did you think it was acceptable? Who are "they?" and who says "they" do not like it? Where are "their own countries"? Many of the people in that video you posted appeared to be British. The two guys under arrest are British. So what EXACTLY are you talking about? Where do you want to send them? There are aspects of society that I do not like. There are things the government does that I find abhorrent? Is it the case that if you live in country you have to like EVERYTHING? That you have to accept EVERYTHING without question or without criticism? OR do you only have to do that if you are a muslim?
Who are "they?" and who says "they" do not like it? Where are "their own countries"? Many of the people in that video you posted appeared to be British. The two guys under arrest are British. So what EXACTLY are you talking about? Where do you want to send them? There are aspects of society that I do not like. There are things the government does that I find abhorrent? Is it the case that if you live in country you have to like EVERYTHING? That you have to accept EVERYTHING without question or without criticism? OR do you only have to do that if you are a muslim? Now now, no need to shout. I am talking about, the likes of Abu Qatada, Omar Bakri Mohamed, Anjem Choudary and all those of the same opinion as these.
I am not shouting shazzap - soooo not the ordinary people demonstrating in the video then.
rich62_uk
25-May-13, 17:39
There is a video going around Facebook at the moment showing a young girl from Luton concerned about her home town, how Muslims are behaving in the area. I am not sure if its already on show here but if not or someone would like to see it I can put a link up.
The Muslims on the march are shouting out things like death to the Police and holding placards with similar wording. Should this be allowed in the UK by anyone not just Muslims ? They tell the young girl that she is dressed like a whore because she has a dress on and is showing her arms etc, she is in the UK and to my mind the dress was actually really nice :) again should this be allowed or classed as free speech ?
I am not shouting shazzap - soooo not the ordinary people demonstrating in the video then.What the ordinary people saying we British should have sharia law and wear clothes like the ordinary people do. Did you actually watch the video. Squidge you can carry on preaching like you did in 103, but I will not change my mind, or opinion.
There is a video going around Facebook at the moment showing a young girl from Luton concerned about her home town, how Muslims are behaving in the area. I am not sure if its already on show here but if not or someone would like to see it I can put a link up.
The Muslims on the march are shouting out things like death to the Police and holding placards with similar wording. Should this be allowed in the UK by anyone not just Muslims ? They tell the young girl that she is dressed like a whore because she has a dress on and is showing her arms etc, she is in the UK and to my mind the dress was actually really nice :) again should this be allowed or classed as free speech ? I put it on rich62
I watched the video. I do not agree with them but they were not inciting people to commit violence nor were they saying death to the police. They told the girl she looked naked and they said that the police and all unbelievers would burn in hell. I dont agree with them but There was Nothing they should not be allowed to say. They did not say death to the police they said police burn in hell. One guy explained to the girl that if she and the police were unbelievers then they would burn in hell. He said they did not respect the law because it is not muslim law.That is his right not to respect it if he chooses not to. it doesnt matter. if he breaks it he will be arrested same as anyone else. The placards they were carrying said British Police were terrorising muslims and that Sharia Law is the solution for the UK.Again, not something I agree with but they have a right to say it if that is what they think. Islam not the only religion to say that people will burn in hell now is it. Like I said, the mannie standing on the street in Inverness says that often and he is preaching christianity.
Why does it matter what they wear, this is Britain they can wear what they want. So you do think these people should "get out" then. Where to?
I watched the video. I do not agree with them but they were not inciting people to commit violence nor were they saying death to the police. They told the girl she looked naked and they said that the police and all unbelievers would burn in hell. I dont agree with them but There was Nothing they should not be allowed to say. They did not say death to the police they said police burn in hell. One guy explained to the girl that if she and the police were unbelievers then they would burn in hell. He said they did not respect the law because it is not muslim law.That is his right not to respect it if he chooses not to. it doesnt matter. if he breaks it he will be arrested same as anyone else. the placards they were carrying said British Police were terrorising muslims and that Sharia Law is the solution for the UK.Again, not something I agree with but they have a right to say it if that is what they think. Islam not the only religion to say that now is it. Like I said, the mannie standing on the street in Inverness says that often and he is preaching christianity.
Why does it matter what they wear, this is Britain they can wear what they want. So you do think these people should "get out" then. Where to?To where they will more at home, with like minded people. Certainly not here.
So from that demonstration you think they dont feel at home? Why do you think that? They were certainly amongst like minded people.
rich62_uk
25-May-13, 18:19
I was brought up with 'when in Rome'. I do this here in Scotland. I do not say it is better in England or Scotland should do this or that because its how we lived in England and it is better that way. If I did then I would expect hostility from Scottish people and rightly so.
So from that demonstration you think they dont feel at home? Why do you think that? They were certainly amongst like minded people.Stop nit picking. You know exactly what I mean.
Ok Rich but I am campaigning for Independence. I have protested against welfare reforms. If you apply your comments to me then I should just shut up and accept that this is how it is and i shouldnt try to change anything. What is different between their demonstration and one against Welfare reform or for an independent Scotland?
Shazzap I am not nit picking. I have no idea what you mean. You can want your own country to be different even whilst it is your home and you wouldnt live anywhere else. The fact that their idea of better is not the same as yours does not mean they should be shipped off somewhere you want them to go.
Can you explain to me why their demonstration is any worse than one against welfare reforms for example because I truly do not get it.
rich62_uk
25-May-13, 18:38
I like the idea of Independence too however that is leaving Scotland in Scotlands hands I am not trying to change the Gov to English Gov ! I am not trying to change the laws to English laws or Danish laws etc ... I am not going around telling Scottish men in kilts to stop wearing skirts :) .
There are plenty of catholics and others who would prefer a catholic anti abortion law. There are people who would like a saudi style law of retribution... An eye for an eye, hanging birching type thing. I dont see the difference in these desires and those expressed by the man at the demo. Like i said this demo was against what they believed was police brutality or persecution or the wrongful arrest of this woman. We have seen hundreds of these over the years in britain. Why is this different? Why is this one seen as "horrific muslim infiltration"?
rich62_uk
25-May-13, 20:24
The thing is I find it difficult to accept is that people from other Countries who settle here are prepared to embrace our benefit system, our national health service, our pension system, our education system and many other parts of our Countries infrastructure that are of benefit to them however complain about our legal system, our heritage and our traditions etc.
The biggest thing that floats through my mind is how the people in a Muslim Country would react to a couple of hundred British people marching in their Country to change their laws traditions and religious views. The changes they are suggesting seem all in all too radical.
The thing is I find it difficult to accept is that people from other Countries who settle here are prepared to embrace our benefit system, our national health service, our pension system, our education system and many other parts of our Countries infrastructure that are of benefit to them however complain about our legal system, our heritage and our traditions etc.
The biggest thing that floats through my mind is how the people in a Muslim Country would react to a couple of hundred British people marching in their Country to change their laws traditions and religious views. The changes they are suggesting seem all in all too radical. I would good rep you for this. But I can't, as I have to spread some around. So I am told.
The thing is I find it difficult to accept is that people from other Countries who settle here are prepared to embrace our benefit system, our national health service, our pension system, our education system and many other parts of our Countries infrastructure that are of benefit to them however complain about our legal system, our heritage and our traditions etc.
The biggest thing that floats through my mind is how the people in a Muslim Country would react to a couple of hundred British people marching in their Country to change their laws traditions and religious views. The changes they are suggesting seem all in all too radical.
Why do you think those marchers were from another country?
We have a perfectly good legal system which has been cut and chopped to suit incomers, we, as has already been mentioned,have great benefits, health and education systems which have been abused for years, we have free speech, free prescriptions, freedom to protest, and yet some who come here from foreign shores are still not happy with our country, well if you don't like our country feel free to leave whenever you like and mind the door doesn't hit you on the arse on the way out.
The thing is I find it difficult to accept is that people from other Countries who settle here are prepared to embrace our benefit system, our national health service, our pension system, our education system and many other parts of our Countries infrastructure that are of benefit to them however complain about our legal system, our heritage and our traditions etc.
If we look at the people in the video. You assume that they are "people from other countries", often as with many of the terrorists that have committed atrocities on British Soil, that is not the case. The people who demonstrate do so because they have their beleifs and they want to voice them. That is as much a part of our systems and infrastructure as the benefit and pension system, the NHS and the legal systems. The people who demonstrated in the video are doing exactly the same as any other british citizen who demonstrates, protests or complains. No different. They are excercising their rights and often - as is the case with protesters - they beleive they have a responsibility to do so - to raise the profile of these issues. There is nothing unbritish about that at all.
The biggest thing that floats through my mind is how the people in a Muslim Country would react to a couple of hundred British people marching in their Country to change their laws traditions and religious views. The changes they are suggesting seem all in all too radical.
Your analogy only works if the people marching were all nationals of another country but likely as not many of those people in that film were British citizens - this is THEIR country too and they have a right to march and a right to air their views publicly. They ARE too radical but that doesnt mean they shouldnt air their views. Despite the ravings of those people who only see bogey men - Britain is not on the cusp of a muslim revolution. Sharia law is not being proposed for our legal system - burkhas are not going to become compulsory attire for shopping in Tesco. Their views are as unpalatable to me as those of the EDL, BNP and SDL but that does not mean that either group does not have the right to state them. Their is another similarity to the EDL/SDL/NF and all the other nasty wee groups, people who hold these views are the minority. They are a small group of people with their own agenda. They do not represent the whole of the british public on either side. To suggest they do is daft.
So I ask again the question that hasnt been answered. Why then is this sort of demonstration different. What makes it different - no violence, no incitement to violence = british citizens exercising their right to protest. What is it about this protest that makes it different?
rich62_uk
25-May-13, 22:38
Sharia law IS being proposed for our legal system by SOME Muslims ie the ones marching. And if they get their way then you WILL be wearing a burkha or suffer the consequences of sharia law.
I never questioned their legal right to march but the morality of it considering the extreme views. The softening of our political correctness is one of the reasons why in many English primary schools you will hear them singing ' baa baa green sheep have you any wool ' think on ....
but I am campaigning for Independence. When Squidge? Have I missed something, my internet was only down for a few hours. [lol]
And Anti abortion laws ARE being proposed by some people..... And if they get their way then we will have stepped back in time in a dangerous fashion. They are actually nearer to taking this scary step than we are to sharia law. The EDL are proposing arming the population apparantly. If they get their way then we heaven knows what will happen. Just because some muslims advocate sharia law does not mean all muslims advocate this nor even that a majority of muslims advocate this.
Lol Golach - just a little teeny weeny tiny bit
Will yer listen to yersells!
I bet Ayman al-Zawahiri would be laughing his cock off reading this lot.
What a load of tripe you all preach, politicising for your own ends a horrific attack on a young man.
Some quite gross propaganda being spewed out in the face of this attack, very leading statements by those who will not deliver.
rich62_uk
26-May-13, 11:52
And Anti abortion laws ARE being proposed by some people..... And if they get their way then we will have stepped back in time in a dangerous fashion. They are actually nearer to taking this scary step than we are to sharia law. The EDL are proposing arming the population apparantly. If they get their way then we heaven knows what will happen. Just because some muslims advocate sharia law does not mean all muslims advocate this nor even that a majority of muslims advocate this.
Anti abortion law is just that, one law not the whole system as some Muslims would like. I wouldnt dream of emigrating to a new Country to then change it to how it was in the Country I have just left !
The EDL are reacting to the terrible death of one of our soldiers being brutally murdered in his own Country by two Muslims and are riding off the back of that terrible crime.
I never said all Muslims and never would, as that is just not the way it is. Many Muslims live in this Country and go so far as to accept it as THEIR Country which is how it should be. I am an adopted Scot who happens to speak with an English accent the same as my children.
I wonder how the people of Caithness would feel if an English person who has moved here from England and demands (yes demand by protesting in the streets) that St George's day is celebrated in Thurso and Wick high st and that the schools in Caithness also celebrate St George's day the same way Muslims get to celebrate their days in many English schools now ?
Sharia law IS being proposed for our legal system by SOME Muslims ie the ones marching. And if they get their way then you WILL be wearing a burkha or suffer the consequences of sharia law.
I never questioned their legal right to march but the morality of it considering the extreme views. The softening of our political correctness is one of the reasons why in many English primary schools you will hear them singing ' baa baa green sheep have you any wool ' think on ....
So what? There have been much bigger and more worrying changes to British law proposed by other groups. I often see calls for the return of the death penalty, and worse, from people you would call British.
Anti abortion law is just that, one law not the whole system as some Muslims would like. I wouldnt dream of emigrating to a new Country to then change it to how it was in the Country I have just left !
Hmm, ask Indians, Pakistanis, or Africans what they think of that notion. A certain Empire did exactly what you oppose.
orkneycadian
26-May-13, 12:20
So how much freedom of speech do you think we'll enjoy if Britain becomes subject to Shariah Law? It can't happen?
We already have within our justice system, differentials in the law depending on your religious background. If you are a Sikh motorbiker, you are exempt from wearing a crash helmet. If you are not a Sikh motorbiker and go helmetless, then you face a fine. We have had that in our justice system for 40 years now, so there is a precedent set that different laws can be applied to different religions.
So yes, different laws can happen, even for minorities. How many Sikh motorbikers do you see? Yet, that warrants a law, or an exemption, all of their own.
The thing is I find it difficult to accept is that people from other Countries who settle here are prepared to embrace our benefit system, our national health service, our pension system, our education system and many other parts of our Countries infrastructure that are of benefit to them however complain about our legal system, our heritage and our traditions etc.
The biggest thing that floats through my mind is how the people in a Muslim Country would react to a couple of hundred British people marching in their Country to change their laws traditions and religious views. The changes they are suggesting seem all in all too radical.
A couple of hundred people making a peaceful protest, out of a population of 70,000,000 are not going to change the law.
A couple of hundred people making a peaceful protest, out of a population of 70,000,000 are not going to change the law.
Well as long as they continue to shoot the radical ones I s'pose it's alright
rich62_uk
27-May-13, 17:10
http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/
(http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/)
http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/
(http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/)
GMP did not arrest a pregnant woman during tensions in Oldham yesterday, and no Union Flag was confiscated from her.
http://manchestergazette.co.uk/video-of-woman-apparently-being-arrested-for-holding-british-flag-goes-viral/
DunnetKnowe
27-May-13, 17:37
http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/
(http://patdollard.com/2013/05/oldham-woman-arrested-for-offending-muslims-by-displaying-british-flag-in-public/)
Dear Reactionary Orger,
Here is a statement released by Greater Manchester Police
Response from Greater Manchester Police
GMP did not arrest a pregnant woman during tensions in Oldham yesterday, and no Union Flag was confiscated from her.
Chief Superintendent Catherine Hankinson said: “Yesterday (Saturday) afternoon, police became aware that a number of people had gathered in Oldham town centre who were shouting and had flags, some of which were provoking passersby.
“As a result there were tensions and some minor disorder.
“While we will always allow and help facilitate peaceful protest, we felt that the actions of these people threatened our community cohesion, so it was our duty to do all we could prevent tensions from escalating.
“Officers dealing with this altercation saw that a woman had a Union Flag and another flag which was highly inappropriate and in our view solely designed to further inflame tensions.
“This woman was therefore taken to one side, the second flag was taken from her and she understood that the flag was causing offence.
“At no point was she arrested, or did she have her Union Flag confiscated from her.”
rich62_uk
27-May-13, 17:53
lol I am not reacting I tend to sit back wait a bit and see how things go before reacting lol....
I was putting it up to see peoples comments. I did not know that she was 'removed' before a situation developed although that in itself is interesting. Why should a situation develop ?
DunnetKnowe
27-May-13, 18:04
lol I am not reacting I tend to sit back wait a bit and see how things go before reacting lol....
I was putting it up to see peoples comments. I did not know that she was 'removed' before a situation developed although that in itself is interesting. Why should a situation develop ?
<<whispers in ear>> quit while your ahead.
rich62_uk
27-May-13, 18:06
:) nah, I dont think its a competition is it ?
PeteSeeker
28-May-13, 00:57
Have you asked your local imam Squidge?
Pete. I had muslim friends down south and was invited to their women's group and met the local Imam on a couple of occasions. I have had some contact with the muslim community represtentatives here in Inverness too through my work. I havent met their religious leader because its not been that sort of contact but they have a facebook page and I have asked questions that way and they have said they are happy to meet and chat anytime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552
"A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there."
"Imam Abid Salik said: "We did have a few people who did come to protest but when they came some of the members of the mosque went over and they engaged in a conversation. "Some people went over with cups of tea and biscuits, they were talking for about 30 or 40 minutes and then they came inside,"
Nice normal story amongst all the accusations and intolerance.
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 10:14
I saw this too Squidge and thought it fantastic and I know there are many more Muslims like this however there are Muslims like this too.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=beb_1358359911
T (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=beb_1358359911)hese are the ones that I dont agree with.
I used to walk these very streets with my friends (many moons ago) drinking and most of the people there in that area drinking and having what they call a good night out are Nurses from the London Hospital. The area is filled with drinkers are they all going to be scared to go out in a British Country because of vigilante Muslims ?
I would have found those men quite intimidating too and they should not be allowed to heckle people like that, but lets get it in perspective. They speak to about four different people. Again, they didnt hit anyone, they werent actually using threatening words - they didnt say go away or else, they didnt even use the words burn in hell that the woman in luton found so terrifying. They were loud and persistent and Like I said I would have been intimidated but apart from the shouting at people to get away from the mosque they didnt say anything which hasnt been said on this board about the way people dress and the way people behave after drinking too much.
We have to keep a sense of perspective and if this is going on report it to the police - a quick google showed they were investigating this and that arrests had been made. If I lived in that community and had been on the receiving end of this I would have gone to speak to the Imam.
Once again, in the same way that those who murdered Lee Rigby do not represent muslims, neither do these men represent muslims. There are strange and unpleasant people in all cultures
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 11:42
Did you look at both videos ?
I assume you will say just arrest them. I personally feel lots of people in Great Britain need to get their heads out of the sand. This type of thing is becoming more and more common. Both Muslims AND anyone else living in this Country need to take a good look around them.
Was that the other video where they were painting over H&Ms bra advert? I didnt comment on that one... Seems a bit over the top to me but Im on a sticky wicket with that one. When I worked in a Department Store as an Assistant Manager on the DIY and Gardening Departments I stuck labels saying "CENSORED" over the pertinent ( or should that just be "pert") parts of the girlie pics the manager and the other Assistant Manager had put on the walls in the office we shared. Can hardly slag someone off for doing the same thing :eek:
Ok - so your solution is what?
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 13:43
If someone is granted a visa to stay in this Country it should be based on someone taking citizenship course and sitting an exam based on that course and signing an undertaking to live as a British Citizen. That is how I believe it should be done.
What does that mean though Rich in reality. Live as a British Citizen.
How would that solve any of these issues that we have talked about on this thread?
What does that ACTUALLY mean?
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 15:13
Have a look at the way the Americans do this.
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 15:16
Had a quick google and found this.
http://www.visaus.com/citizen.html
I (http://www.visaus.com/citizen.html) really like number 9.
We dont have a constitution. And thats America - what does Live as a british citizen mean?
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 15:33
Are you British out of interest ? Because if so then you really should of worked it out for yourself by now.
yes of course I am British. I see exercising the right to protest about something as living as a British citizen, the right to campaign to change society as living as a british citizen, I see the right to take non violent action when you dont agree with something as living as a british citizen. As long as you dont break the law and dont take part in spying, terrorism and other illegal activities then you are living as a british citizen.
You think people should sign an undertaking to live as a British citizen - what do you want them to undertake to do or more importantly - not to do?
Im not being funny Rich I truly dont know what you mean. I cant imagine that you mean that people coming into this country and taking citizen ship must not take part in any demos or marches or protest, must not try to change society ever, or not voice their concerns about things they dont like.
If you say you have to sign an undertaking to live as a British Citizen then you have to know what that is or perhaps more importantly what it isnt.
rich62_uk
03-Jun-13, 20:39
I see as per usual you have centered on the parts that suit you rather than the spirit of the theme.
I see being British as being able to celebrate my traditions and customs without the fear of upsetting others that are supposed to be part of my community and celebrating the same things as I. Being able to fly the flag of my country without being threatened to the point where the police need to be involved. Where I can have a monument to the fallen in the two world wars that they fought in, to uphold the things that I now hold dear without it being defaced.
I could go on and on with these things however in your case it would fall on deaf ears. You are in the group of people who pussy foot around incomers to the point where their values and traditions overtake your society, to the point where there is a muddy mess just waiting for the time where a minority becomes a majority and suddenly the place they are now living is as decimated as the one they left.
Let me make it clear if I didn't like the way things were done in Scotland I would move back to where I came from not change it to the thing I was trying to get away from and to be honest I hope you hold the same values......
Rich, these arguments against allowing people to worship how they want and uphold the traditions they want are ones I have listened to for years. They are born of fear and ignorance. You are right you should be able to fly your flag and uphold your traditions and your next door neighbour should be able to do the same. As long as people are within the law. Just to be clear, I havent pussy footed around anything in my life. The problem with your"vision" is that many of the people in the video you linked to, and the luton video are british. They havent "arrived here" they arent incomers, they have all the rights of you and me to live their lives as they want and to try to change their society as they see fit. No more rights and no less. As long as they are within the law then that is as british as it comes.
rich62_uk
04-Jun-13, 06:20
Squidge, having looked back over your posts on this thread I can see that I am actually banging my head against a brick wall. You seem to have very little regard for our National Traditions and Cultural Heritage.
The only question you repeatedly ask is "is it legal". If it makes you feel better then yes it is legal, however is it moral no i dont think so. While these people may have been born here, they come from a different cultural background, in their lineage are different traditions ones that are not seated in this country. If they are so concerned about these kinds of traditions and cultures why not live somewhere where the locals already celebrate these things and no try to impose them on another society.
For now I shall leave you with it, with the thought that in 20-30 years time, i am likely to get a view of your world. You would have encouraged these cultural influences to grow to the point where you are living with your children and your grandchildren in impoverished conditions, as in some other cultures. Or maybe just one grand child as it is illegal to have more,as in some other cultures. With your one armed son in law, who just happened to have been wrongly accused of stealing,as in some other cultures. Or maybe your son in law has taken the grand child from your daughter at age 7 as this is the law if he wishes to do so,as in some other cultures. Or maybe, just maybe you will no longer be with us, as the legal position on 16 year olds having the right to choose suicide,as in some other cultures,has spiraled out of control and In-voluntary euthanasia for the over 70's is now LEGAL.
As I said before, get your head out of the sand, this is the thin end of the wedge......
You read over my posts and decide I have little respect for our national traditions and cultural heritage. Do tell me rich how you draw that conclusion?
Squidge, having looked back over your posts on this thread I can see that I am actually banging my head against a brick wall. You seem to have very little regard for our National Traditions and Cultural Heritage....
Rich what are our National Traditions and Culture heritage exactly?
Are you British out of interest ? Because if so then you really should of worked it out for yourself by now.
Are you British? Where do you live?
cptdodger
04-Jun-13, 11:18
Personally, I was born, at home, in Broughty Ferry, just outside Dundee very nearly fifty years ago. Which makes me British by choice Scottish by birth. Whatever difference that makes. My views will be different than somebody that wants independence, because it is important to me to be British. Does that mean that the person who wants independence views are wrong, no, they are just different. Your views of dealing with that attrocity in Woolich are different from mine Flynn, but that is your opinion and that's fine, you are entitled to it. Having lived in England and Scotland, I have found people have different views on what they deem as "being British" I have also found that depends on where they were brought up.
Squidge, having looked back over your posts on this thread I can see that I am actually banging my head against a brick wall. You seem to have very little regard for our National Traditions and Cultural Heritage. Still waiting for a reason why you think this.
The only question you repeatedly ask is "is it legal". If it makes you feel better then yes it is legal, however is it moral no i dont think so. While these people may have been born here, they come from a different cultural background, in their lineage are different traditions ones that are not seated in this country. If they are so concerned about these kinds of traditions and cultures why not live somewhere where the locals already celebrate these things and no try to impose them on another society..
Isnt that the only question though? If it isnt illegal then you are saying we should remove people from Britian who have not broken any law, simply because you dont like their views? Your video reminded me nothing more than of My uncle Ken who took great exception to people - generally young people with scruffy clothes and yobby hairstyles - sitting on the wall between his house and the shop. He would bang on the window and tell them to move on, if they didnt he would go out and shout at them in quite a threatening manner. he didnt break the law particularly and people didnt think he was representative of the whole village. I did think you would have thought these things through properly and yet all you are doing is regurgitating old policies from the days of the National Front in the 1970s.
For now I shall leave you with it, with the thought that in 20-30 years time, i am likely to get a view of your world. You would have encouraged these cultural influences to grow to the point where you are living with your children and your grandchildren in impoverished conditions, as in some other cultures. Or maybe just one grand child as it is illegal to have more,as in some other cultures. With your one armed son in law, who just happened to have been wrongly accused of stealing,as in some other cultures. Or maybe your son in law has taken the grand child from your daughter at age 7 as this is the law if he wishes to do so,as in some other cultures. Or maybe, just maybe you will no longer be with us, as the legal position on 16 year olds having the right to choose suicide,as in some other cultures,has spiraled out of control and In-voluntary euthanasia for the over 70's is now LEGAL.
You absolutely paint a bleak and scary picture but let me offer you one in return.
Picture this, A Britain where prostest is oulawed, where suggesting that something is not to your taste or someone's clothes are too skimpy, can lead to you being picked up and imprisoned for speaking your mind. Imagine a place where you can only worship in state run churches and your religion is examined for its suitability. Where you can be deported for saying the law is wrong and they should bring back hanging or should change it in some other way. Where if you mention islam in a facebook post or an email or a conversation on the phone a hit squad arrives at your house to question you with the hour. Where neighbours spy on other neighbours and people report those of us that have friends of a different colour.
I would suggest that your views are the enemy of british culture and british traditions. Your ideas are the enemy of freedom and morality. Your views are the ones in danger of sending this country spiralling into a place where the streets run with "rivers of blood" after all the EDL suggested last week that Britons should arm themselves. What? Tthey dont speak for you? They dont speak for the majority of the British public - how is that?. You suggest that extremists speak for the Islamic community of Great Britain and we should be afraid because they are going to be taking over an estate near you very soon.
As I said before, get your head out of the sand, this is the thin end of the wedge......
Youa re absolutely right - if we allow intolerance, prejudice and hatred, a voice without challenging these things then we are looking at the thin end of the wedge indeed.
There are problems in our cities - that is evident but that is not going to be solved by sending all the muslims back to some place they didnt come from in the first place just cos we dont like what they say.
rich62_uk
05-Jun-13, 14:42
Sorry Squidge
Was a nice day yesterday so decided to have a day in the garden instead of indoors don’t get so many of those here in the North, so nice to take advantage of them. Anyway back to the discussion.
Point 1,
The reason I made my remark was that you do not seem to be defending these Traditions in the same way as others have not over the years and hence why they are slowly diluting and disappearing you see that’s the problem. These things disappear like a very slow drip can cause drowning if you leave it long enough.
Point 2,
I have never suggested and never would suggest that people from another culture be removed from Britain all I have ever suggested is that they live cheek by jowl with the traditions that are already here and have been for many hundreds of years, so if I have come across as “ round them all up and boot them all out” I must apologies . Also I wouldn’t know about the policies of the National front from the 70’s as I have never felt the need to study them so you have the advantage of me there.
Point 3,
Yes I do paint a very bleak picture as I do fear that slow drip, drip, drip on a pathway that leads to issues that I would rather not see in our future. You see the issue is less to do with the right to protest or have your own opinions, it’s the problem of the British tendency to panic when a minority shouts loud enough and we could be accused of being less than politically correct if we don’t react to it in an extreme way and in fact go too far the other way.
Point4
I would refer to my previous answers
You see one of the things I am taking into account is our Countries wrong doings and experience of going to other lands and trying to do things the way we see fit. While a lot of benefits were passed on, if you reflect on them you wouldn’t want to do them again in the same way, when I say this I am thinking of our involvement with Hong Kong, India, South Africa and parts of the West Indies
Another nice day back to the garden, hope you are having a good one yourself Squidge……
A short time ago some people were saying the security services had failed as they haven't been keeping tabs on every potential loon, now apparently they are being very naughty by gathering data through a secret data gathering program! I thought that is what we paid them to do!
**Stop Press**
The SECRET methods of gathering SECRET intelligence by SECRET agencies is...SECRET.
Who would have thought it? :lol:
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