View Full Version : Spittal Potts
secrets in symmetry
16-May-13, 16:57
It's good to hear that the Pottingers are going full steam ahead with their plans for a windfarm at Spittal Hill. This is the sort of entrepreneurial endeavour our County needs during the current economic barren spell.
Agreed. Seemingly the decision letter last time gave the green light for a scaled down development.
secrets in symmetry
16-May-13, 17:14
Yes, I believe so.
What can be better than being entrepreneurial, green, and socially minded? :cool:
Yes, I believe so.
What can be better than being entrepreneurial, green, and socially minded? :cool:
It will be hard to refuse planning permission with such a recommendation.
I don't know the background to the story but the above posts come as across as you both gloating.
I don't know the background to the story but the above posts come as across as you both gloating.
Nah....Rheghead is gloating.....SIS is stirring! :D
I've just had a quick look on Google. Apparently the company behind it is Statkraft, which I believe is a Norwegian company. So the cynic in me sees this as having sod all to do with being green, it's just yet another company out to make money on the back of the green movement. Or are they going to be altruistic and give all profits to the community and local charities? Aye, right!
Oh, I forgot, it 'could' boost the local economy and provide jobs. Has anyone looked at other ventures to see how much the local communities have really benefitted?
secrets in symmetry
16-May-13, 22:06
I don't know the background to the story but the above posts come as across as you both gloating.There's no gloating from me. I'm pleased that the County is showing signs of economic and entrepreneurial life, and at the same time we (well, the Pottingers) are planning yet more green electricity generation. There are those who don't understand wind energy, there are those that spread lies about wind energy, and there are those that are (sadly) beyond worrying about. I'm happy because we're doing the right thing.
And there are also those like me, who understand we need it, even if we don't fully comprehend the science behind it. But the farms should only be built for the right reasons, not because it suits an agenda or is purely to make money, as this venture comes across to me. But what do I or anyone in a similar position matter, we are just the 'little people' that need educated by you, or maybe we are beyond help.
secrets in symmetry
16-May-13, 22:23
Yes, there are indeed those like you, with whom it's possible to have a sensible discussion.
I don't know the background to the story but the above posts come as across as you both gloating.
No gloating from me. Just putting in some neutral value commentary.
I thought this had been refused planning so have they opened a new can o' worms?
secrets in symmetry
17-May-13, 00:38
As Rheghead has explained many times, the money/profit issue isn't ideal, but it gets the job done rather well.
No gloating from me. Just putting in some neutral value commentary.
ROFLMQ, Rheghead.....you don't do neutral value commentary. Been reading you since I joined here well after you did....and you do windmills/farms as the saviour of the earth to a frankly irrational level.
Might be worth asking you, yet again, what you, personally are doing to reduce your carbon footprint....I have asked before, more than once, with no response from you...but I still think that cutting the individuals' consumption of carbon producing habits will do a lot more to reduce carbon usage than throwing up windmills for profit to those throwing up the windmills will.
Do you have your house insulated to the nth degree? Do you run a car...and do you use it when you could as easily walk to your destination? Do you take foreign holidays? Do you, as I do, wear seven layers of clothes, including two fleeces to enable me to cut down on my heating levels..or do you sit aeound in a T-shirt? Do you have stuff always left on standby? Do you only buy locally produced goods and services...and in-season local produce? Do you hang out the laundry or use tumble driers? There are at least 100 ways to reduce personal carbon consumption.How many of them do you use?
Or was roadbowler correct when she said Why are you so keen to change the subject of your own personal attempts to stem global warming?? Yes, you are correct, i know nothing about you. This is why i'm asking you what you do! Directly.... In support of your concerns of stemming global warming? So, far, you support windfarms in one of the finest unspoilt counties in scotland to perpetuate spiraling energy consumption therefore to justify your own greed for energy.
You think this time you might respond...or are you happy to promote the impression that you will happily kill the Caithness tourist industry, such as it is, with a proliferation of windfarms just so you don't need to change your lifestyle?
I did the carbon footprint stuff from here http://www.carbonfootprint.com/calculator.aspx which gives me a 0% carbon footprint total....another link gives me 4.05 tonnes (about 2 trees a month) And yours is?
secrets in symmetry
17-May-13, 01:50
No gloating from me. Just putting in some neutral value commentary.That's also my rationale.
Spittal Hill is an ideal site for a windfarm - it's far better than most.
With the reducing cost of the infrastructure i.e. buying turbines, batterys and solar panels, it is getting close to possible to go off grid for the upfront cost of an annual electricity bill for a household.
This would seem to me to be a much much better, cheaper, cleaner, greener way of doing things. A small scale generation plant for each house and we wouldn't need most of the large scale generation we have now.
But which (foreign) corporate giant would make money, get grants, avoid tax, jib the consumer, fund the quango (regulator)?
That's no good then.
Tubthumper
17-May-13, 12:12
Regarding going off-grid: Seems to me that would be an eminently sensible road to follow for remote homes, however each home having a separate turbine in built-up areas? That might take a bit of getting used to.
secrets in symmetry
17-May-13, 12:27
Rooftop turbines are useless in most urban areas. Since they are small, they don't generate a lot of electricity even when the wind is blowing strongly, there is less wind close to the roof, and many urban dwellings are sheltered by other urban buildings. Solar panels are ok in urban areas. I'm not sure how much space heat pumps take up, but I assume space for them is a problem in cities and towns.
My hunch is that batteries will play a large part in energy storage, but that's not much more than an educated guess.
Rooftop turbines are useless in most urban areas. Since they are small, they don't generate a lot of electricity even when the wind is blowing strongly, there is less wind close to the roof, and many urban dwellings are sheltered by other urban buildings. Solar panels are ok in urban areas. I'm not sure how much space heat pumps take up, but I assume space for them is a problem in cities and towns.
My hunch is that batteries will play a large part in energy storage, but that's not much more than an educated guess.
I know a number of off grid people (mine isn't really up and running yet) small turbines 100 to 300w so they are very small, (the type you see on small pleasure boats) and a bunch of 80w panels and they are having to dream up ways of wasting the extra electricity they are generating. If you have room for a small garden shed you can do it.
Regarding going off-grid: Seems to me that would be an eminently sensible road to follow for remote homes, however each home having a separate turbine in built-up areas? That might take a bit of getting used to.
About the size of satalite dish?
Might be worth asking you, yet again, what you, personally are doing to reduce your carbon footprint....I have asked before, more than once, with no response from you...
That is because it is none of your business. I am only interested in how we, as in the every person we, can reduce our carbon footprint. I'm not an eco-warrior, but I am flattered that you think I am, however, I'm just an ordinary person who can plainly see that the Earth is heading for an ecological disaster.
So the upshot of what I am saying is this, if you want me to reduce my footprint to zero then I am all in favor of that but the Government must make it happen. They must make me reduce my carbon footprint and make everyone around me as well. Or do it in such a way that I do not have to put any effort in so I do not notice. I'm not going to go out and save the whales on my own.
That is because it is none of your business. I am only interested in how we, as in the every person we, can reduce our carbon footprint. I'm not an eco-warrior, but I am flattered that you think I am, however, I'm just an ordinary person who can plainly see that the Earth is heading for an ecological disaster.
So the upshot of what I am saying is this, if you want me to reduce my footprint to zero then I am all in favor of that but the Government must make it happen. They must make me reduce my carbon footprint and make everyone around me as well. Or do it in such a way that I do not have to put any effort in so I do not notice. I'm not going to go out and save the whales on my own.
Lol! Just what I thought........you are only as green as not having to do anything about it as an individual will allow you to be!
You'll happy to see windmills thrown up all over Caithness.....just so you can continue to live the same lifestyle as if you weren't continually ad nauseam paying lip service to the idea windmills will cure all ills. Any ecological disaster will be due to our consumption of every darn thing...given nature hasn't done as much damage so far as we have done since the Industrial Revolution.
We could cover every spare inch of the UK in windmills....but as long as there are roads and people with 4x4s, airports with planes taking in and out people and goods....and carbon sinks being removed in the name of progress (and windmills).....the ecological disaster will possibly happen..but I suspect that won't bother you as you will be able to live till you die as you do now.
Lol! Just what I thought........you are only as green as not having to do anything about it as an individual will allow you to be!
You'll happy to see windmills thrown up all over Caithness.....just so you can continue to live the same lifestyle as if you weren't continually ad nauseam paying lip service to the idea windmills will cure all ills. Any ecological disaster will be due to our consumption of every darn thing...given nature hasn't done as much damage so far as we have done since the Industrial Revolution.
We could cover every spare inch of the UK in windmills....but as long as there are roads and people with 4x4s, airports with planes taking in and out people and goods....and carbon sinks being removed in the name of progress (and windmills).....the ecological disaster will possibly happen..but I suspect that won't bother you as you will be able to live till you die as you do now.
The thing is that there will be no political appetite for going green if that meant that everyone had to go and live in a cave. The bottom line is that we have to go green or the Earth will face disaster. As individuals, we can only do what we can afford. The rich will feel smug for buying fancy solar panels and eco cars that cost a fortune but it is purely lipservice to the problem. We need mass movement on renewables so that we all go green.
Human nature will make us do nothing about it if we can get away with it. That is the honest answer. You can feel all high and pius by saying we have to keep the hills clear of wind turbines but at the end of the day, without any statutory instruments to make us more green the Earth is heading for disaster. Reality must take precedence over human political freedoms as nature cannot be fooled.
The thing is that there will be no political appetite for going green if that meant that everyone had to go and live in a cave. The bottom line is that we have to go green or the Earth will face disaster. As individuals, we can only do what we can afford. The rich will feel smug for buying fancy solar panels and eco cars that cost a fortune but it is purely lipservice to the problem. We need mass movement on renewables so that we all go green.
Human nature will make us do nothing about it if we can get away with it. That is the honest answer. You can feel all high and pius by saying we have to keep the hills clear of wind turbines but at the end of the day, without any statutory instruments to make us more green the Earth is heading for disaster. Reality must take precedence over human political freedoms as nature cannot be fooled.
Don't you think if everybody believed the doom and gloom predictions, they'd be doing something themselves, though? Have we become such a nanny state that we have to be told eternally what to do as well as what to think and what we are allowed to say.or even worse expect to be paid for doing it? Not a lot of personal responsibility there.
We are turning into Pavlov's dogs...who have trained ourselves to salivate at the current buzzwords on fora. Yours is windmills, Flynn's is racism..mine, I suppose is independence (though Palestine runs it a close second).
Re carbon reduction.....personally.I think nuclear is a better option than windmills....and one nuclear plant would be less obtrusive than hundreds of windmills.and a lot more reliable. After all..those of us who aren't ameliorating our lifestyles now to ensure future generations don't have to, as you say, live in caves, because they, selfishly, still want to live as they always have, can't possibly be worrying about leaving our descendents up crap creek for centuries....because that is what we are in the process of doing already by waiting for the Government to talk....or legislate some sense into us! :roll:
Don't you think if everybody believed the doom and gloom predictions, they'd be doing something themselves, though? Have we become such a nanny state that we have to be told eternally what to do as well as what to think and what we are allowed to say.or even worse expect to be paid for doing it? Not a lot of personal responsibility there.
I don't think that we want to be told eternally what to do. Who wants that? That is why I'd like green politics to be right at the heart of everything that we do so that everything that we do. Green politics should not be an inconvenient political add-on, it doesn't work, it isn't working. Too many powerful political giants are getting rich on the oil and gas market to allow it to happen I'm afraid to say. Nobody should have the right to opt out of doing their bit, that is why I like wind farms, everyone uses green electricity everytime they turn on a light switch. They even get to share in the environmental and economic benefits as well. If there is no option, certain people cannot get all high and pius about everyone around you not being as green as they should or claim to be. Nobody wants that because it spreads indifference and apathy.
At the end of the day, we need real political change that will make a difference.
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 11:28
I know a number of off grid people (mine isn't really up and running yet) small turbines 100 to 300w so they are very small, (the type you see on small pleasure boats) and a bunch of 80w panels and they are having to dream up ways of wasting the extra electricity they are generating. If you have room for a small garden shed you can do it.How do they boil water for a cup of tea? How do they power anything on cold, still winter evenings? Do they have big batteries?
How do they boil water for a cup of tea? How do they power anything on cold, still winter evenings? Do they have big batteries?Generator perhaps
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 14:41
Generator perhapsYes, that would work, but it would be a nuisance to have to start the generator every time you wanted to boil the kettle, or to switch on some other domestic appliance that would take your electricity usage over that produced by a wee 100W windmill and a bunch of 80W solar panels.
In the other hand, they may have a big bunch of panels - but even they wouldn't help after 4pm in winter.
Yes, that would work, but it would be a nuisance to have to start the generator every time you wanted to boil the kettle, or to switch on some other domestic appliance that would take your electricity usage over that produced by a wee 100W windmill and a bunch of 80W solar panels.
In the other hand, they may have a big bunch of panels - but even they wouldn't help after 4pm in winter.
Im guessing but if I would think they have a combination of panels, turbines, batteries, inverter and deisel alternator.
I would be interested to find out what such a system may set you back.
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 14:57
That would be my guess too.
Knowing the price would be useful, as would more details of the actual setup.
If you're interested, there is loads of info on the net. I use 8x 110AH batteries and a 1000w inverter. The solar panels and turbine charge the batteries. This is sufficient to power the mobile home.
To power the house, I'll be using a 24v volt system. Probably 12x 2 volt cells (forklift batteries) a 1250w turbine (about £3-400) and 6 -8 80w solar panels (about £130 each including the charge controllers). Electric kettles are a no no, we use gas :lol:
A decent system including batteries, about £2500
I'm only using a bigger turbine because I have room and a windy location, you need to find a happy balance between wind and solar.
A small petrol genny is useful to put a quick high amp charge into the batteries should you need it.
A bit of effort but it is worth it surely to never have another lecky bill?
I should add, the inverter converts 12-24v D/C to 230v A/C
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 16:19
Using gas to boil your kettle is cheating if you have mains gas. I'll let you off if you have gas bottles, or even a tank. :cool:
It'll be interesting to see how much power the wind turbine generates on average. Have you tested one at your location?
I was thinking about how much electricity I use at peak times. I could conceivably have the kettle, oven, microwave, washing machine, drier, dishwasher, TV, freezer, fridge, and probably some things I've forgotten, all switched on at once. I haven't worked out how much power that lot would consume, but it must be a lot!
What's the peak power your system (including the generator) will be able to provide, and for how long?
Using gas to boil your kettle is cheating if you have mains gas. I'll let you off if you have gas bottles, or even a tank. :cool:
It'll be interesting to see how much power the wind turbine generates on average. Have you tested one at your location?
I was thinking about how much electricity I use at peak times. I could conceivably have the kettle, oven, microwave, washing machine, drier, dishwasher, TV, freezer, fridge, and probably some things I've forgotten, all switched on at once. I haven't worked out how much power that lot would consume, but it must be a lot!
What's the peak power your system (including the generator) will be able to provide, and for how long?
Mains gas? In raural Caithness? :lol:
You are missing the point. The petrol generator isn't part of the system. (I could run everything off the genny all the time at 2.5 KWh. ). I don't know about peak output, that depends on the batteries. You do have to manage your useage. Idealy the batteries even out the generation against use. A pal is having to turn his fridge and freezer up full at the moment. In the winter you use excess power to heat water. In extreme cases you can use a dump system which will just heat up a lump of metal.
The thing to remember is you are generating most of the time whether you are using it or not. And I am not an expert, I'm still learning all this stuff myself.
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 17:47
I was thinking of peak power output when I asked about the generator.
However, I agree that the generator shouldn't be considered part of the system, and you are of course right about peak output depending on the (state of the) batteries.
You may not be an expert, but you've clearly thought about the details far more than I have! As I've often claimed, energy storage is the key to making the whole thing work. (I think) I believe you can do it right now in a rural domestic setting - even if you have to resort to heating a lump of metal every now and then lol. The big problem is doing it on a national and international scale - you need a lot of batteries, hot water tanks, reservoirs, and perhaps even huge lumps of metal!
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 17:51
As for gas, your challenge is to produce your own. :cool:
As for gas, your challenge is to produce your own. :cool:
I'm sure on the original 1970s tv series of Survivors they found a way.
(This is the sort of entrepreneurial endeavour our County needs during the current economic barren spell) Can you explain how this is what our county needs and why it would benefit the county? apart from the land owner developer and wind farm company!
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 21:38
I'm sure on the original 1970s tv series of Survivors they found a way.That's before my time Rheghead. How did they make gas?
That's before my time Rheghead. How did they make gas?
Gas capture was a big problem but I'm fairly certain it consisted of burning gas from human and animal waste through a basic turbine.
secrets in symmetry
21-May-13, 21:58
How did they store it?
How did they store it?
As I said , gas capture was a big problem, with Supermarket bags I think but I think that method will be difficult with these confounded hessian things.
secrets in symmetry
22-May-13, 00:27
Storing gas in supermarket bags doesn't sound too promising. I think I'll stick to wind turbines!
secrets in symmetry
22-May-13, 13:42
I read today that planning for Lyth windfarm is moving forward. This is more good news, and it provides more warm glows for the enlightened. :cool:
I did hear that scientists had devised a method of stripping CO2 out of the atmosphere and synthesising napthalene which could be used as a fuel to generate electricity but ministers had mothballed the plans for a commercial plant.
secrets in symmetry
22-May-13, 18:47
I did hear that scientists had devised a method of stripping CO2 out of the atmosphere and synthesising napthalene.What do you add to CO2 to make naphthalene?
What do you add to CO2 to make naphthalene?
The CO2 is reduced in a hot stream of hydrogen over an erbium-platinum-zeolite catalyst. The carbon polymerises into benzyl rings by an exothermic reaction. The heat that is evolved is quickly conducted through the zeolite and made available for heating the original stock of hydrogen thus completing the reaction cycle.
secrets in symmetry
22-May-13, 20:37
Thanks! :cool:
I forgot to ask how you would generate electricity using naphthalene. Do you just burn it, or is this a more sophisticated idea?
Thanks! :cool:
I forgot to ask how you would generate electricity using naphthalene. Do you just burn it, or is this a more sophisticated idea?
This is where it gets inventive. The napthalene slowly sublimes into a gas, the gas is slowly passed under a large cage which is full of highly agitated moths that are trying to get away from this well known fumigant. The downdraft from the frightened moths is more than enough to drive wind turbines to make electricity.
secrets in symmetry
22-May-13, 21:20
This is where it gets inventive. The napthalene slowly sublimes into a gas, the gas is slowly passed under a large cage which is full of highly agitated moths that are trying to get away from this well known fumigant. The downdraft from the frightened moths is more than enough to drive wind turbines to make electricity.That's really clever. Once that system is up and running, windless days won't be a problem for windfarms ever again. :cool:
I thought I'd come back to this as I have been learning more about off grid generation.
It is not really true that the batteries store lecky. On the assumption that the batteries are fully charged when they are first installed, they never become more than fully charged.
So you use turbines, solar panels, donkeys in treadmills whatever, to charge the batteries. And the batteries power your house. If you don't use all the power you are generating, the charge control system stops the batteries overcharging.
If you use more power than you are generating, the batteries run flat. (I'm always a bit miffed when my turbine doesn't turn properly when is is windy. I've learned however, that it has an electromechanical charge control system and brakes to idle when the batteries are fully charged).
So, the trick is to have the capacity to generate slightly more than you need at your peak consumption. Of course if you are on the grid it is a lot easier because you sell oversupply and draw from the grid when you are short. That is cheating though as far as I'm concerned :cool:
BTW, we had two power cuts last night at the on-grid house. Very annoying, I'm looking forward to never having to put up with that again.
secrets in symmetry
03-Aug-13, 13:18
Batteries do store lecky, or, more precisely, they store energy. The fact that they start off fully charged doesn't alter the dynamics after some initial short "transient" period.
It's good to see a post from someone who actually understands what the issues are. :cool:
You can avoid wind-turbine idle time by having more (or bigger) batteries. The batteries act as a "heat bath" (in thermodynamics language) - just like the Grid would if you could both buy and sell electricity from/to it.
You can do that with no batteries and the Grid - unless the whole world wants to do what you're doing, in which case the world needs lots of batteries, or lots of pumped storage, or whatever storage system we eventually settle on - probably a combination of lots of different methods.
Batteries do store lecky, or, more precisely, they store energy. The fact that they start off fully charged doesn't alter the dynamics after some initial short "transient" period.
It's good to see a post from someone who actually understands what the issues are. :cool:
You can avoid wind-turbine idle time by having more (or bigger) batteries. The batteries act as a "heat bath" (in thermodynamics language) - just like the Grid would if you could both buy and sell electricity from/to it.
You can do that with no batteries and the Grid - unless the whole world wants to do what you're doing, in which case the world needs lots of batteries, or lots of pumped storage, or whatever storage system we eventually settle on - probably a combination of lots of different methods.
You're right as far as a domestic set up is concerned. The more or (more precisely the deeper the cycle) bigger the batteries the better. I have plenty of room but there does have to be a limit as they are quite bulky. :lol:
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.