View Full Version : Out of school charges?
cuddlepop
17-Jan-07, 22:52
Just heard tonight that my daughters boss wil be charged £100 for taking his son out of school for a fortnights holiday which starts on Sunday.
I knew Scottish Executive were looking at the problem and Bruce Robertson was furious so many kids were taken out of school during term time,but charging parents ?:eek:
Why not?
It might make them think again about doing it.............what on earth is anyone doing booking a fortnights holiday and taking their kid out of school in term time when there are twelve weeks in the year they can holiday in without being fined?
footie chick
17-Jan-07, 23:05
Why not?
It might make them think again about doing it.............what on earth is anyone doing booking a fortnights holiday and taking their kid out of school in term time when there are twelve weeks in the year they can holiday in without being fined?
You save more than a £100 by taking holidays during school time :( .
cuddlepop
17-Jan-07, 23:06
But charging?
Your still going to get the parents who can afford to take out of school holidays going anyway.So where the incentive not too.
Its the holiday companys that need to offer across the board deals.:eek:
weeboyagee
17-Jan-07, 23:39
Why not?
It might make them think again about doing it.............what on earth is anyone doing booking a fortnights holiday and taking their kid out of school in term time when there are twelve weeks in the year they can holiday in without being fined?
Erm,... maybe there are some exceptions - family weddings, funerals and other emergency commitments abroad. The inability to afford the peak school holiday season prices?
Talk to the parents and understand the reasons. Fines are a last resort and quite honestly I thoroughly disagree with them - if it was me and I could make sure that my child's education was unaffected (because I am brainy enough to make sure they catch up :p) I'm dash sure I would take them out of school if I had to - although I would make sure it would be a real necessity and keep it to a minimum.
What about the cancelled days where the kids are off because of bad weather - can we fine the schools or ask for our fines back if they were levied on us?? Hmmmm....? A thought isn't it?.......
I always hesitate to comment on UK/Scottish policy because I am an outsider, but this has captured my spirit. I was faced with the dilemma when I was appointed for a 4 month term of service in Caithness. My daughter had one more week of school before her final exams. I asked permission to take her out of school for that week. NO! The answer was very clear, NO, unless I had a doctor's certificate. So my Muslim physician thought it a brilliant idea for my daughter to spend a week in Scotland. The real irony was that on the trip we visited Edinburgh Castle and got the history lesson of Elizabeth I and her time in Scotland. Well, come history exam a week later there was the question about E1 and my daughter got every detail with enthusiasm.
As a parent I thought very seriously about taking my children out of school. I was diligent in making sure that they kept healthy to minimize their sick days. And I know that I wouldn't have appreciated a fine.
j4bberw0ck
18-Jan-07, 00:34
charging parents ?:eek:
No problem. Might make them think twice about treating their children's education as a "nice to have".
But in the spirit of the free market, I like weeboyagee's idea of charging the schools for bad weather days (which always seem to be a Friday or Monday) and definitely, for "in service" days. You mean 14 weeks holiday isn't enough to work in a couple of days training?????:eek:
You save more than a £100 by taking holidays during school time :( .
But holidays away from home are an optional extra.....not a necessity. :roll:
No problem. Might make them think twice about treating their children's education as a "nice to have".
Got to say I'm with you on this, if the parents want to disrupt the kids education then pay the charges, they will pay airport charges without hesitation
Erm,... maybe there are some exceptions - family weddings, funerals and other emergency commitments abroad. The inability to afford the peak school holiday season prices?
Talk to the parents and understand the reasons.
For family weddings, funerals, emergencies abroad, I expect there will be some kind of proof that the situation exists.
Holidays abroad are a necessity for nobody...so if you can't afford them when kids are off school, then you should do something you CAN afford!
There is a big difference between having to take them off school for good reason.............and taking them out to go on holiday!
What about the cancelled days where the kids are off because of bad weather - can we fine the schools or ask for our fines back if they were levied on us?? Hmmmm....? A thought isn't it?.......
And you'd be happy sending your kids to schools with frozen heating systems/burst pipes or on bad roads in bad weather?
j4bberw0ck
18-Jan-07, 00:54
And you'd be happy sending your kids to schools with frozen heating systems/burst pipes or on bad roads in bad weather?
No need; just have an arrangement where the school opens a couple of extra days in the incredible holidays they award themselves.... I mean, teachers are motivated, right? Of course they'd agree! :lol:
Buttercup
18-Jan-07, 00:57
I do disagree with children being taken out of school just for holidays during the school term but I can also see the other side of things. Consider this: a small business with a dozen workers the majority of whom want their holiday during the school ones. Now it doesn't take a genius to see that 12 people each wanting 2 weeks holiday during the 6 weeks summer school break just won't work.
j4bberw0ck
18-Jan-07, 01:02
Good point. But it requires management ingenuity to solve - amongst other things, that's what they're supposed to be there for.
First come first served holiday bookings? Talking to people about their plans?
I do disagree with children being taken out of school just for holidays during the school term but I can also see the other side of things. Consider this: a small business with a dozen workers the majority of whom want their holiday during the school ones. Now it doesn't take a genius to see that 12 people each wanting 2 weeks holiday during the 6 weeks summer school break just won't work.
No but six could.......and the next year that six don't get the school summer holidays, but two get the school October Holidays, two get the school Easter Holidays, and two get the school Christmas holdays........then all twelve get school holidays with their kids.
It should be a defined rota system..the important thing is having the time with your family........not jetting off overseas, imo.
And if your fortnight doesn't happen to coincide with your partner's fortnight.....then that is the penalty of having both of you working..as that is your option..not the school's.
Sounds more like just another form of Tax Grab to me.
again goes back to a child has to be educated but they do not have to be in school.
this is a real tricky one and one that we are going to have a major problem with. we get to go home about once every 2 years on average.
now i personally do not consider this a holiday.
this is me going back to visit my family.. whom i do not get to see, and whom my children do not get to see.
in the past .. (now this was on the american side) the teachers.. when my cousin came over for my wedding with her daughter.. saw it as a great opportunity.. and gave elizabeth homework to keep her on course with her classwork.. and she had to do a report on scotland.. and what she experianced and saw.
the school exscused the 2 1/2 weeks abscence.. and gave her a leave with something to do about learning experiance as long as all the work was done.
personally i am quite happy to take the work with us to go to america.
and have the kids to do extra credit work if need be.
but there is no way we can afford to go across in the summer holidays as a family of 5!
the flights alone are astronomical!
was just wondering about bad weather days?
do the schools over here not make them up?
i know back home when there has been a snow or several days school has been missed that it is taken off holiday time.. and that the kids and teachers have to make it up. as there are x amount of days in the year.. and each school has to be open those days.
Alice in Blunderland
18-Jan-07, 08:51
was just wondering about bad weather days?
do the schools over here not make them up?
i know back home when there has been a snow or several days school has been missed that it is taken off holiday time.. and that the kids and teachers have to make it up. as there are x amount of days in the year.. and each school has to be open those days.
No Brandy the school teachers or pupils don't make these days up.:D A little extra for both the teachers and pupils some years its quite a few days .
i had to get permission from my daughters school 2 years ago so she could go to canada 3 days before the school closed for the summer holidays was issued with a letter stating permission granted. i applied 3 months in advance so there was no comeback when it was time to go
Quite right I never got taken out of school for holidays. School is far more important than any holiday. Yes I know flights etc are dearer during the season but come on a childs education is far more important. A fortnight off school for a holiday is also not teaching your child very good values.
I dont want to fight I am just expressing my own opinion not digging at anyone.
porshiepoo
18-Jan-07, 10:36
We've taken our kids on many holidays abroad ranging from Africa to Spain and every single time (that I can think of) we've gone during school term and whats more, we'll continue to do it that way.
Going on holiday during school holidays is havoc, expensive and generally more depressing and stressful than going during school term.
As far as we're concerned the fors definately outweigh the against and the £100 charge is easily saved on the cost of the holiday (I still don't agree with the charge though).
My kids have many fantastic memories of their holidays - snorkelling on the Kenyan coral reefs at the age of 6, watching and joining in with african dancing / singing, tombs of the kings in Cyprus, the market town of Rhodes and visiting the castle on donkey, earthquake on Lesvos and many many more.
Alot of the experiences they have we wouldn't have been able to afford if we'd gone during school term and they're now getting to the age where it's quite expensive to take them any time of the year.
But they've had amazing experiences.
Incidentally, we've never sought permission either. Why bother when it's for a holiday and you know it will get declined? Nope, I send a letter to school to arrive their first day off.
i had to get permission from my daughters school 2 years ago so she could go to canada 3 days before the school closed for the summer holidays was issued with a letter stating permission granted. i applied 3 months in advance so there was no comeback when it was time to go
I did virtually the same thing - I wrote to the school well in advance asking for permission to take my daughter out of school for the last few days of the summer term. At that time the school ran a "suspended timetable" in the last week of the summer term, so what she was missing was not any teaching, but a few days of trips out here and there.
I was called to a meeting with the deputy head - he did agree to give me permission, on the grounds that she would not be missing any actual schooling, but made it very plain that he didn't approve and that it was a one-off.
It disrupts the student being taken out and the class dinamic. Everyone else still has to be there, including teachers and staff who then have to help the child to "catch up". We learn as youngsters about the real world and real world responsibilities. If we teach our kids to disregard these responsibilities when convenient then we are laying great foundations!!!! (that last remark was sarcastic, by the way).
cuddlepop
18-Jan-07, 11:00
There has to be exceptions for this to be exceptable.Some parents are habitual offenders and should be discouraged.
There are some families whose parent or parents work in the leisure industry and it is made clear that there are no holidays taken during the season.Many hotels are closed for a while in January and parents who can afford it take their kids abroad for their summer holidays then
People are starting to see the restrictions that are placed on them if they work in this industry especially if they have kids and many are leaving.:(
Who will look after you then if you want to go on holiday?
mums angels
18-Jan-07, 11:20
I took my 2 kids out of school over the weekend just past , explained to the scholl verbally and by letter that the reason was due to there dad working away over xmas and new year for a month and getting called away again in under a forgtnight therefore missing the Febuary long weekend that the schools have so we decided to do it this weekend instead, they were very understanding and said that thre would be no problem.
I did feel terrible about taking the kids out under normal ciircumstances i wouyld never do it and don't agree with people that do on a regular basis , especially for more than a couple of days.
I'd asked for work to be sent home and for the older one was sent home nothing extra and shes not behind in any of the work and the younger one got a few sheets that took 20mins to do. On fridays they don't do too much anyway and i think it helped that they had just gone back and were still at the settling in stage
Hopefully I willl not need to take them out again! :)
engiebenjy
18-Jan-07, 11:39
Got to say I'm with you on this, if the parents want to disrupt the kids education then pay the charges, they will pay airport charges without hesitation
Well said Golach.
cuddlepop
18-Jan-07, 15:23
So does anyone see a way of penalising parents other than monetary?:eek:
Frankly, no!
What other options are there that would exercise their minds?
100 lines? Extra homework? A curfew with tagging? Community Service?
Fining is the easiest way for all concerned.
Buttercup
18-Jan-07, 16:03
It seems to have been assumed in this thread that the only time children are taken out of school during term is to holiday abroad! Many families still holiday at home/in UK.
It seems to have been assumed in this thread that the only time children are taken out of school during term is to holiday abroad! Many families still holiday at home/in UK.
I think the destination is immaterial Buttercup. The principle is still the same.
It seems to have been assumed in this thread that the only time children are taken out of school during term is to holiday abroad! Many families still holiday at home/in UK.
That's true. We started having foreign holidays when my eldest daughter was 9, not every year though.
Until she was 6, our holidays were all spent staying with relations, or friends, most often in Caithness (till our Caithness relations died/moved away). They came to stay with us in return. Then we had a few self-catering holidays here, before we finally started going abroad.
Some years we still had a UK self-catering holiday - but it got increasingly expensive keeping the kids amused, unless you were very lucky with the weather :( I think quite a lot of people find that.
Buttercup
18-Jan-07, 16:21
I think the destination is immaterial Buttercup. The principle is still the same.
Indeed it is, but it seems to be being blamed for it.
I am, as I said, against taking children out of school for anything that can be done at another time. But I also think each occurance has to be judged on it's own. There are many valid reasons that can make it happen.
Buttercup
18-Jan-07, 16:30
Just wondered if all this annoyance (for lack of a better word) is still there when the school arranges trips during school time? Here I'm thinking about the York/Edinburgh trips from the Primary Schools and the Ski/Snowboarding trips the High School do? ~ These are holidays and not every pupil goes.:confused
cuddlepop
18-Jan-07, 17:01
Just wondered if all this annoyance (for lack of a better word) is still there when the school arranges trips during school time? Here I'm thinking about the York/Edinburgh trips from the Primary Schools and the Ski/Snowboarding trips the High School do? ~ These are holidays and not every pupil goes.:confused
Good point Buttercup.
My daughters learning support teacher was off skiing before christmas for a week during term time and there was no teacher to cover.It was a school trip.Wonder if we can bill the education authority.for stress due to staff holidays:lol:
I haven't read the whole of this thread yet but can say that everyone was warned as the pupils of all the schools in the Highlands were given a letter urging parents not to take pupils out of the school for holidays during the school term. The only reason a child should be taken out of school is if it is urgent or a personal reason eg. funeral, graduation of a family member, wedding of close relative etc.. It also isn't fair for one pupil to be taken out leaving others in school.. If everyone did that, the teachers would have no one to teach and they are there to teach everyone entitled to full time education so unless you are prepared to do home teaching then I wouldn't advise taking a child out of school during the term. There are pleanty other days in a year to go on holiday.. An education is more important that a holiday so if during school time is the only time you can get a holiday booking then maybe a childminder should be seeked and the parents go off on their own. Probably the main reason for taking a child out of school during the term is because holiday prices are much cheaper.
What's more important to you? Do you care more about your child's education or a holiday which can be taken any time during the holidays.
Good point Buttercup.
My daughters learning support teacher was off skiing before christmas for a week during term time and there was no teacher to cover.It was a school trip.Wonder if we can bill the education authority.for stress due to staff holidays:lol:
Just wondered if all this annoyance (for lack of a better word) is still there when the school arranges trips during school time? Here I'm thinking about the York/Edinburgh trips from the Primary Schools and the Ski/Snowboarding trips the High School do? ~ These are holidays and not every pupil goes.:confused
I doubt very much the staff see it as a holiday. It is also my understand that longer excursions, although not open to every child, are encouraged in schools as part of a childs education.
As to how attendance is marked see this site:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/12/20388/48495
Although it seems attendance has become an issue so pressure is being put on schools to ensure there are as few absences as possible.
danc1ngwitch
18-Jan-07, 19:20
forgive my ignorance but there is more to life than stuff out of a book.
Sometimes the holiday abroad can show them things they would never ever ever get out of a book... Now i am all for school education so dare not jump on me for this...
well i live in suffolk and there thinkin of doin that now but its not come into effect yet thank god
lassieinfife
18-Jan-07, 19:24
Ah but isnt that what holiday time is for...........?
danc1ngwitch
18-Jan-07, 19:30
Live life to the full, you only get one chance so make it count:o)
I worked with a woman who had a full education and lots of this and that and all sorts. she sat there saying all this and me being me, i say well i doing the same thing as you and hell i aint got nuttin... we were in same job and me well hell look at me.. [lol] woman felt a fool, i had not meant to make her feel this way i meant not to bring her down i was statin a fact.
We've taken our kids on many holidays abroad ranging from Africa to Spain and every single time (that I can think of) we've gone during school term and whats more, we'll continue to do it that way.
Going on holiday during school holidays is havoc, expensive and generally more depressing and stressful than going during school term.
As far as we're concerned the fors definately outweigh the against and the £100 charge is easily saved on the cost of the holiday (I still don't agree with the charge though).
My kids have many fantastic memories of their holidays - snorkelling on the Kenyan coral reefs at the age of 6, watching and joining in with african dancing / singing, tombs of the kings in Cyprus, the market town of Rhodes and visiting the castle on donkey, earthquake on Lesvos and many many more.
Alot of the experiences they have we wouldn't have been able to afford if we'd gone during school term and they're now getting to the age where it's quite expensive to take them any time of the year.
But they've had amazing experiences.
Incidentally, we've never sought permission either. Why bother when it's for a holiday and you know it will get declined? Nope, I send a letter to school to arrive their first day off.
The experiences can be amazing but....
Does that mean that you are also taking responsibility to bring their lost lessons up to the rest of the class? or are you going to have teachers etc take time away from the other pupils to bring your children up to speed?
- if it was me and I could make sure that my child's education was unaffected (because I am brainy enough to make sure they catch up :p) I'm dash sure I would take them out of school if I had to -
lol - English is my second language but I'm pretty certain that the phrase is dashed sure.
Heaven help your children if they ever need to 'catch up'.
Too many term time holidays methinks.
porshiepoo
19-Jan-07, 00:51
The experiences can be amazing but....
Does that mean that you are also taking responsibility to bring their lost lessons up to the rest of the class? or are you going to have teachers etc take time away from the other pupils to bring your children up to speed?
I honestly don't think that the time they spent away from school put them behind in any way, infact they've done very well in catching up with the class work when we moved from England .
Obviously we wouldn't consider taking them out during vital exam times and that means during revision time also and as they have their final exams coming up this year they won't be going on holiday for a while.
Education doesn't begin and end in the classroom you know. We play spelling games, number games etc in the car on journeys, give them puzzle compendiums to do, they draw constantly (and incidentally, are fantastic in this area. Take after their old mum. lol), heck, just taking them to the shops can be a learning curve for them if they're involved in the whole process.
Taking a child out of school doesn't mean they'll necessarily fall behind and what's more they stand to gain a lot from the experiences of travelling worldwide, gaining valuable experiences at impressionable ages that the school obviously cannot give them.
I'm quite proud of the fact that both my daughters are pretty outgoing and confident and having had a taste of other countries are eager to experience these things again and thankfully are hoping to see more of the world before settling down. I'm not saying that this is solely down to the amount of places they've been but I do believe it's the major factor. They'll have no probs hopping on a plane once they're old enough and seeing the world.
I do disagree with children being taken out of school just for holidays during the school term but I can also see the other side of things. Consider this: a small business with a dozen workers the majority of whom want their holiday during the school ones. Now it doesn't take a genius to see that 12 people each wanting 2 weeks holiday during the 6 weeks summer school break just won't work.
I agree with buttercup!!! I work for a VERY large company and have to book leave 15 months in advance, and with most of the workforce wanting the school holidays it's just not possible always get them. I work hard throughout the year to pay for the chance to go to the sun with my family and see them enjoy themselves as after all the kids are only young for a short time. My kids are quite happy to catch up on return to school. As for the fines i pay taxes to keep the school open whether or not my kids are there.
Blazing Sporrans
19-Jan-07, 15:32
I agree with buttercup!!! I work for a VERY large company and have to book leave 15 months in advance, and with most of the workforce wanting the school holidays it's just not possible always get them. I work hard throughout the year to pay for the chance to go to the sun with my family and see them enjoy themselves as after all the kids are only young for a short time. My kids are quite happy to catch up on return to school. As for the fines i pay taxes to keep the school open whether or not my kids are there.
I'd like to endorse this position. Not only do I work for a large company where leave has to be ratified the preceding year, I find myself in direct competition with other staff members for the school leave dates. I also have four children and holidays abroad are an extreme luxury. I went to Holland during school holiday time in 2000 and it has taken up to 2006 before I could afford another excursion abroad in Menorca, also taken during term time. I take my children's education seriously and thankfully know that they do the same, they are very diligent students who perform well in school.
Now it's expensive enough to take a larger family abroad without having to consider that schools may fine you for doing so within term time. Realistically, I could only consider a foreign holiday during the October holidays, which provides considerable discount as opposed to the vastly over-inflated summer prices. To abide by the schools terms, we only had one week in Menorca and not the two we would have preferred, however having seen the pleasure it brought to my family and seen how much they learned (and wanted to learn) about a foreign country and environment, I would have no difficulty with removing them from school for an extra week in future.
There are many factors to consider here, therefore I'd be rather annoyed at the carte blanche introduction of a fining system that penalises ALL parents, regardless of whether it's a systematic breach by some families, or a one-off, as it would be in my own circumstances.
If parents are serious about their childrens schooling, I'm sure some compromise can be reached in terms of supervised extra curricular work that can be submitted by the child on return from their holidays.
I know it's not quite the same thing, however when I was studying Higher maths in school, I was off sick with glandular fever for a fortnight just as my class were starting the subject of calculus. When I returned, I was given no help by the school in terms of catching up and basically had to teach calculus to myself. These days, when schools have a shorter working day and longer holidays than in my time, it appears that unmotivated teachers want to constantly minimise the effort of teaching the children in their charge.
it appears that unmotivated teachers want to constantly minimise the effort of teaching the children in their charge.
Interesting accusation.
luskentyre
19-Jan-07, 20:51
Just heard tonight that my daughters boss wil be charged £100 for taking his son out of school for a fortnights holiday which starts on Sunday.
I knew Scottish Executive were looking at the problem and Bruce Robertson was furious so many kids were taken out of school during term time,but charging parents ?:eek:
I know, imagine trying to make parents responsible for their children... It'll never catch on.
Personally I agree that something should be in place to dissuade parents doing this. It smacks of arrogance on the parents part, to believe their leisure is more important than the education of their children. So what if it's more expensive during school holidays? Go somewhere different. Presumably you're going to have to take leave, or pay for child-minding during the school breaks anyway?
Blazing Sporrans
20-Jan-07, 18:02
Interesting accusation.
Reading this a day later, then I unreservedly apologise to any I've upset who are either connected with teaching or are directly involved and see teaching as the vocation it should be. I'm old enough to realise that there are good and bad in every profession and I've tarred the good teachers with the same brush that should be reserved for the bad ones. I'm afraid that reading the original post just got my dander up and combining this with the many negative experiences I have had of the educational system both as a pupil and a parent led to an ill-considered post by me in response.
As I said in my post though, the reasons for taking a child out of school (which I haven't done yet in over 16 years of having children in the school system) may be manifold and I suspect that some who criticise ANY parent who takes their child out of school may not actually be parents themselves. In those circumstances it is easy to have high ideals and principles and cast aspersions on those who take children out of school. My children have NEVER complained about not getting abroad on holiday, yet I know that they must have felt at least a little envious of their many friends who have enjoyed foreign holidays on a regular basis. So, as a parent, I moved heaven and earth to be able to afford to take my kids away last year and the enjoyment they felt while on holiday was tangible. If at some time in the future this means that I take my kids out of school to be able to enjoy a similar holiday, then I will seriously consider doing so.
So let's not criticise just ANY parent who takes children out of school during term-time, let's consider individual circumstances and instead direct any criticism at the recidivists who apparently do not care for the educational system
in all honesty.. i dont think i would take my children out of school.. for a fun in the sun holiday.. or other family exscursion like that..
HOWEVER...
i will in a new york min. pull them out to go to america.
and that would be for an extended period if need be!
if i thought we would be there for more than a couple weeks .. i would simply enroll them in the local school.
but in no way shape form or fashion.. would i give up the chance to see my family.. and mother because it was inconvienent for the schools.
im just wondering.. and this is what bugs me.. for example. if say my mum was to deteriorate.. (shes very ill ) and i went home for several weeks, to be with her, obviously the kids would go with me.. would the school then try to get me for negligence?
and non attendance?
some things are more important than missing some school.
and like i said , i would simply enroll them there if we were to be there more than 2-3 weeks.
i dont percive as going to america as being a holiday. .but will the school officials see it that way or will they try and stop my children being exscused?
[quote=brandy;183487]
if i thought we would be there for more than a couple weeks .. i would simply enroll them in the local school.quote]
Problem is it probably would be pointless enrolling them for that space of time in an American school, where they'll be at a completely different stage in the school curriculum. Not to mention they sit totally different exams and the subjects may even be completely different!
But I can see what a difficult situation it must be for you. If your mum is seriously ill you will want to spend time with her, and can't just abandon the kids on their own at home, so you're stuck between a rock and a hard place! :(
footie chick
21-Jan-07, 00:21
Two years ago I took our kids out of school in June {only thing they missed was their school trip to Dounreay :roll: which is repeated every year or so it seems} head teacher was more than happy as she felt that they would learn more on holiday abroad than at home? Do I regret it? NO not only did they all have the time of their lives and still speak of it now but we saved over £1000.00!!!! by taking the holiday during school time! If we were to do it earlier in the term time I probably wouldn't. I personally feel that in June they schools are on melt down until the holidays
We had to take our boys out of school last October to come home when my Dad died. We went to the school, explained the situation and asked the teachers for extra homework for the time we would be away.
cuddlepop
21-Jan-07, 12:53
We had to take our boys out of school last October to come home when my Dad died. We went to the school, explained the situation and asked the teachers for extra homework for the time we would be away.
I think it may be at the schools discretion if or when parents are charged.It would be good if I could find an Educational document for these charges but I cant:(
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