Why not talk?

[piratelassie]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better together or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is. Vote yes in 2014.

[macadamia]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotiations with the Scottish people because those officials and most of the population of the United Kingdom want the United Kingdom to stay the United Kingdom, so they will not make it easy for Scotland (government/officials/people) to negotiate any terms whatsoever, as secession is just not in their interests. So of course the Scottish government cannot guarantee anything. That's part of the Westminster government's plan. Think turkeys voting for Christmas!

[secrets in symmetry]

The "Scottish people" don't want secession (according to all opinion polls), so why would any sensible UK government person try to talk to us about it?

[mi16]

And what do we do after voting YES when it all turns to rat excrement.
It always has, and as far as I can see, always will be a NO from me.

[golach]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better together or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is. Vote yes in 2014.
When is Eck going to talk to the Scottish voters and tell us how his mob are going pay for things???

[PantsMAN]

According to today's Herald, " Lord Lawson has asserted – Nationalists, pay attention – that quitting a political and economic union is simple, painless and without consequences. Without being parochial, you might want to wonder why what works for Britain, in Lord Lawson's world, couldn't work in parallel for Scotland."

Ian Bell - nail - head - again!

[secrets in symmetry]

According to today's Herald, " Lord Lawson has asserted – Nationalists, pay attention – that quitting a political and economic union is simple, painless and without consequences. Without being parochial, you might want to wonder why what works for Britain, in Lord Lawson's world, couldn't work in parallel for Scotland."

Ian Bell - nail - head - again!Nige's years of nonsensical lies about Climate change have proved beyond doubt to the scientifically literate that he is an idiot. There are times when I have similar doubts about his grasp of economics and politics.

Ian Bell is gullible sometimes.

[equusdriving]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better together or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is. Vote yes in 2014.

wow, even for you that is an even more desperate than normal statement................................and you have had longer than normal to come up with it too,
very disappointing, :lol:[lol]:lol:

[orkneycadian]

Talking would indeed be good. But it appears that the Yes / Pro / Female Pirate camp are rather reluctant to do so, when the subject matter is somewhat thorny...

http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?202311-Scottish-Vote&p=1023793#post1023793
(http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?202311-Scottish-Vote&p=1023793#post1023793)
So Piratelassie, Why Not Talk?

[squidge]

Ok Orkneycadian I'll bite. Although you know ... some of us have a new job, a new summer season starting, a family crisis which is sucking time out of everyday and decorating to do. Sometimes a failure to answer your demands for information is not due to avoidance but to being busy!!!

We have to accept that There is a cost to our democratic process. The last General Election cost 113 million, the PR referendum 75 million. This makes the cost of the Independence referendum there or thereabouts. The Scottish Government will have made provision in its budgets for the money for this just like the Westminster government says it can budget for 115 billion to replace Trident.

I guess you are really asking is it money well spent? Well the SNP clearly stated that they would run a referendum, it wasnt a secret, it wasnt whipped out of the cupboard at the last minute. Given their election success it would seem that enough people thought it was worth the price as they won the election. That doesnt mean that all those who voted for The SNP support independence but those people too must have decided it was a price worth paying.

In any case the figures you quote for the cost of implementing an Independent Scotland are plucked out of thin air. Given however that I am upset, angry and appalled at reading today that yet another poor person has committed suicide this week as a result of being left with no benefit money, sick, vulnerable, worried, desperate I am tending to think the cost is worth it even if all we get is a welfare system that is administered with compassion. Not something that trapping a few rabbits can resolve.

Now if you will excuse me I have more sewing to do.

[orkneycadian]

The figure for the cost of going independent was indeed plucked out of thin air. Well, Google at least. It could be half, it could be double. Either way, I am open to hearing an accurate estimate from someone in the know. My concern is that it will still be a very big number, and I am not sure how big a number we have under the bed at the moment.

[squidge]

We could talk about the cost all day but it is immaterial because it depends on the negotiating done after the referendum. Many of these figures given seem to suppose we start from nothing. No infrastructure, no tax offices( although given the coalitions endeavours we are likely to soon see the back of these) no Jobcentres, no civil servants, no expertise. Many of the services have an office for Scotland or a Scottish Region and so after Independence they will simply change their line of reporting in the first instance. costs will be spread and will depend on the priorities agreed by the electorate and also through the negotiating done. Dont forget, Scotland has resources and assets and they will be taken into account too. Now ... Definitely sewing!

[orkneycadian]

So we won't know what the cost of all this will be until after we have voted for it? :eek:

[orkneycadian]

And we will be assuming that national (UK) organisations will be gifting us their Scottish assets?

[squidge]

No we are not assuming anything except that there will be negotiating and we do have assets as well as costs. Now you naughty thing, stop tempting me with political debate lol. I have to do my sewing!!!!!

[squidge]

I know it annoys you that we have to vote before we know what the costs are. I dont know if the Scottish Government will make an estimate of the costs before the referendum. They will be releasing a White paper so we might get some indication of costs and savings. It depends what is important to you. For many, the simple fact that money raised in Scotland, will be spent in Scotland on priorities decided by a Scottish Government that WE have voted into office, is enough. I know it isnt for you and I understand and respect that. But for many that simple fact is full of opportunities and options denied to us just now and that is enough for them to vote yes.

[piratelassie]

At present Scotland enjoys devolved perks from Westminster. If we haven't the courage and foresight to attain mastrey of our own divices in an independent state in the 2014 vote we should do the honourable thing and surrender our free prescriptions, university tuition fees, etc, and be equal with our countrymen south of the border who do not enjoy these concessions. Be assured, if we say no to independence, Westminster will have the proverbial green light to unleash their slash and burn political agenda on Scotland.

[orkneycadian]

Its not so much a case of being annoying, but downright dangerous. So we vote yes, and Eck & Nicky get us half way to independence, blowing £70 billion in the process, NATO won't allow us to join because we are anti-nuclear, so we get invaded by Trashkanistan who want all our oil (don't laugh, it could happen - After all, we, as part of NATO did it to them...), the EU won't bail us out as we didn't manage to meet their criteria to be accepted as a member state, the rest of the UK don't want to know as they have now realised we were a cost to them and our independance has worked in their favour, and Eck and Nic tell us its our responsibility as we voted for all of this?

[squidge]

Okay. We get to Independence in a measured and methodical way. The EU fast track us to membership, NATO readily accept us as a member to join their other non nuclear members. We work closely with the UK in a sensible respectful way to ensure fairness in the split - after all the eyes of the world are watching. The oil does as well as predicted and no one invaded us. And we all live happily ever after.... In a Scotland which is fairer and in which we are all better off..... Both visions are valid depending on your point of view. Again, it depends on what is important to you, what your priorities are as to how you will vote.

[orkneycadian]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better together or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is. Vote yes in 2014.

It appears that this thread even contradicts itself, as the above statements could just as easily read;

SNP officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better apart or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is.

[squidge]

Lol.... I gave up on the sewing ;)

[Alrock]

Its not so much a case of being annoying, but downright dangerous. So we vote yes, and Eck & Nicky get us half way to independence, blowing £70 billion in the process, NATO won't allow us to join because we are anti-nuclear, so we get invaded by Trashkanistan who want all our oil (don't laugh, it could happen - After all, we, as part of NATO did it to them...), the EU won't bail us out as we didn't manage to meet their criteria to be accepted as a member state, the rest of the UK don't want to know as they have now realised we were a cost to them and our independance has worked in their favour, and Eck and Nic tell us its our responsibility as we voted for all of this?

So we vote no, and we remain a part of the UK. Cameron & the Tories get elected again.... A referendum is held (another waste of money according to you) on Europe, we're out of Europe anyway... The poor are squeezed even more as the Tory economics continue to fail miserably... Civil unrest breaks out, riots on the streets, a rogue army general seizes control of Trident & turns the nukes on the rioters, all major cities of the UK obliterated.... etc.

See... we can all dream up some pretty scary worst case scenarios for any situation, but since all you can do is scaremonger then by all means carry on, it is at least entertaining... lol

[sgmcgregor]

Westminster officials refuse to enter negotations with the Scottish people unless the people of Scotland vote yes to independence first. So the next time you hear better together or anyone else say "The Scottish Government can not guarantee that" just rememberwhy that is. Vote yes in 2014.

Hello all,

I just wanted to offer my own opinion to Piratelassie's original statement. I do not say "offer my own answer" because I have no idea whether what I am saying is true or not. I am no legal expert. These are merely my own musings on the subject.

Neither the Scottish Parliament nor UK Government is free to enter negotiations prior to a “Yes” vote in the Referendum on Independence.

Scotland is in a peculiar situation in that it effectively has two governments - the Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament (or, UK Government). The Scottish Parliament’s one and only responsibility is to the people of Scotland. The UK Government is in the present situation of representing not only England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, but also Scotland.

Therefore the UK Government cannot, in good faith, enter into negotiations with the Scottish Parliament about a “possible” decision on Independence. If the UK Government did so, they would be in a position of conflict between representing what the Scottish people want, and what the people of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland want – all of these different peoples are currently represented by the UK Government and “siding” with one group over another would be wrong. <AFTERTHOUGHT> Only if there is a "Yes" vote would the UK Government be able to negotiate in good faith. Because from that standpoint they would be able to negotiate exclusively for their own interests - i.e. the nations remaining in the UK - England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. The UK Government would no longer also be representing the Scottish people.

Besides which, the Scottish Parliament are also not in a position to negotiate. This is because they will only have a mandate to do so in the event of a “Yes” vote in the Referendum on Independence. Until the Scottish people make their decision clear in the referendum in 2014, the Scottish Parliament has no right to begin any negotiations.

Should the Scottish Parliament wish to make statements about their aims, hopes, aspirations – call them what you will – then that is fine. It is on the intangible that the people of Scotland have to make a decision. It really is a matter of desire, or even faith, on the part of the Scots as to how they vote in the referendum – do you believe that being independent is right, and what is best? Or, do you believe that we are better as part of the UK?

That is the decision everyone needs to make for themselves.

I am happy to see that there are passionate supporters on both sides of the debate. It is better that people are engaged and try to make the best decision they can, as opposed to the disturbing alternative of people not caring an iota about what happens.

The only statement I want to make on the matter of independence is this – If you don’t vote, because you can’t be bothered, then please don’t complain about the outcome. The decisions are made by those who show up.

Good luck to everyone.

Kind Regards,
Steven