View Full Version : A retail park too far?
Okay- so we have Homebase, New look ,Tesco etc. all in sunny Wick, and every weekend the town's retail parks- notice that I didn't say the town- is invaded from Thurso, Helmsdale etc.
Now we are to get a garden centre (Howdens? Dobbies?) plus 2 retail outlets, one of which will probably be Matalan, and the other Pizza Hut/Macdonalds.
I'm really relieved to know that the Highlands are so awash with cash. particularly when I heard the sad story of the young couple who were recently put out of the bungalow they'd built themselves, and left to the mercies of temporary accomodation. Their crime? They'd fallen behind on mortgage repayments and they were overstretched on credit cards/bank loans etc. One of their debts was to a less than scrupulous lender who ordered a car transporter to remove their vehicles. They even took the baby's new buggy- which had come from a catalogue.
My heart bleeds for them. They were not shopping junkies. Neither were they irresponsible people at heart.
I've kept an eye on the forum- particularly on all the threads devoted to shops. It appears that the least literate of the orgers are the most desperate to get out their and give their plastic a good caning.
The only money that remains in the county is the wages paid to the employees. And their hearts won't be bleeding when there isn't enough money to go round and keep the tills in all these outlets going. Tesco? That should be here to stay. The others? Watch this space.
My personal New Year's resolution? I cut up my credit cards and I'm only shopping with cash. This week alone, safe from impulse spends, I managed to save almost £200. In a year that adds up to almost £10k.
I wish you all a happy and prudent New year
My personal New Year's resolution? I cut up my credit cards and I'm only shopping with cash. This week alone, safe from impulse spends, I managed to save almost £200. In a year that adds up to almost £10k.
I wish you all a happy and prudent New year
Congrats. Bagpuss.
There was many people that traveled to inverness before these stores came up her. So that is a saving of the money spent on petrol to travel that distance, which can now be spent in this county. Not everyone uses credit cards to pay for this.
So it may mean that the stores that are here stay here. :roll:
I'm puzzled as to what the problem is here.
Is it that there are new retail outlets coming to Wick which will give people more choice?
Is it that some people borrow more than they can afford without considering the results?
Or is it that some people are "Shopaholics" who cannot control their addiction and can't resist wanting everything they see like a child in a sweet-shop? :confused
Boozeburglar
16-Jan-07, 04:28
I've kept an eye on the forum- particularly on all the threads devoted to shops. It appears that the least literate of the orgers are the most desperate to get out their and give their plastic a good caning.
And parey tell, how eskcactly do yoo discner the most literate from tyhe mopst illetaret, and lets cee yer sliding skale?
Any point you had to make seems null and void with this sort of talk.
It is a web forum, not a spelling or writing contest.
;)
webmannie
16-Jan-07, 07:46
their
Glad to see that you are just as illiterate as the rest of us.
Now we are to get a garden centre (Howdens? Dobbies?) plus 2 retail outlets, one of which will probably be Matalan, and the other Pizza Hut/Macdonalds.
as the units are 10k sqf i dont think pizza hut/ macdonalds would use them. it would be lhe likes of next/ outfit, also i think the garden centre could be B&Q.
I'm not sure what an influx of new shops has to do with a young couple, who presumably had overstretched themselves, being evicted. When I moved up here I somehow assumed living would be cheaper than in the south of England - big mistake. If these new shops bring down the cost of living (as has already happened with petrol) and reduce the number of people travelling to Inverness for their shopping, surely that has to be a good thing.
Apart from a mortgage, which nearly everyone needs, anyone who spends vastly more than they can afford has only themselves to blame. I'm always shocked by young couples setting up home who insist everything has to be new. Why? It's a shame we no longer have a local auction but there are still plenty of sources of second hand goods of all kinds, not least on the .org. Babies don't need new prams etc. - they don't know the difference. Why do people think plastic somehow doesn't have to be paid for? I use it all the time but I know what my income is and what I can, or can't, afford. Parents of older children have a much bigger problem and have all my sympathy as it seems virtually impossible to resist peer pressure. Hopefully they will be helped by these cheaper big stores.
Have to say I'm impressed by bagpuss "saving" £200 in one week. Wish I had that to spend shopping :eek:
Have to agree with you badger - although I do think the banks have a lot to answer for! Ultimately it is the person spending the money that has to take responsibility for their own actions. However, I think banks are wrong to be throwing credit around so freely. Banks used to be there to help advise and guide you in the right direction financially - now its like most business' and they have 'targets' to meet. How many people go into banks to pay in money and come out without being offered another product? Its now all about 'sales'. If you got into financial difficulty, they would offer you advice and set up a payment plan - now its about offering a loan to cover existing debts - and why not take out that bit extra and go on holiday/do up your kitchen while you are at it. :roll:
I have only ever had my mortgage and car on 'loans' and I have vowed never to get a car on hire purchase again - I'll get a new one when I have the cash in the bank. I paid far too much in intrest - even over a 2 year plan and would rather I was gaining intrest on my money for 2 years of saving than paying it to someone else.
It appears that the least literate of the orgers are the most desperate to get out their and give their plastic a good caning.
I don't think there is any call for degrading some Orgers in this manner! And besides you should have spelled "their", like this, "there."
A case of the pot calling the kettle black, me thinks!!
If anybody wants to, as you said, "give their plastic a good caning," then that is their own choice. Nothing to do with their literacy levels. (3 x their used here, in correct context)
Have to agree with you badger - although I do think the banks have a lot to answer for! Ultimately it is the person spending the money that has to take responsibility for their own actions. However, I think banks are wrong to be throwing credit around so freely. Banks used to be there to help advise and guide you in the right direction financially - now its like most business' and they have 'targets' to meet. How many people go into banks to pay in money and come out without being offered another product? Its now all about 'sales'. If you got into financial difficulty, they would offer you advice and set up a payment plan - now its about offering a loan to cover existing debts - and why not take out that bit extra and go on holiday/do up your kitchen while you are at it. :roll:
I have only ever had my mortgage and car on 'loans' and I have vowed never to get a car on hire purchase again - I'll get a new one when I have the cash in the bank. I paid far too much in intrest - even over a 2 year plan and would rather I was gaining intrest on my money for 2 years of saving than paying it to someone else.
I'm afraid our "never never" society starts at the top and it must be a huge temptation to borrow more when it's thrown at you from every angle. Things started to go wrong when mortgage limits were virtually removed - remember when you could only borrow a percentage of the house value with repayments a percentage of your income? Not any more. With a Chancellor who seems to think he can just carry on borrowing and political parties in huge debt that they have no hope of repaying (why else the titles for cash?) it's not a great example for the rest of us.
Don't even get me started on banks - aaaah [evil] . Debt is how they make their money and they could not care less about the damage they do. I have a friend who is now retired but hated his last years working for a bank because they had to offer a product to every customer they saw.
Okay- so we have Homebase, New look ,Tesco etc. all in sunny Wick, and every weekend the town's retail parks- notice that I didn't say the town- is invaded from Thurso, Helmsdale etc.
Now we are to get a garden centre (Howdens? Dobbies?) plus 2 retail outlets, one of which will probably be Matalan, and the other Pizza Hut/Macdonalds.
I'm really relieved to know that the Highlands are so awash with cash. particularly when I heard the sad story of the young couple who were recently put out of the bungalow they'd built themselves, and left to the mercies of temporary accomodation. Their crime? They'd fallen behind on mortgage repayments and they were overstretched on credit cards/bank loans etc. One of their debts was to a less than scrupulous lender who ordered a car transporter to remove their vehicles. They even took the baby's new buggy- which had come from a catalogue.
My heart bleeds for them. They were not shopping junkies. Neither were they irresponsible people at heart.
I've kept an eye on the forum- particularly on all the threads devoted to shops. It appears that the least literate of the orgers are the most desperate to get out their and give their plastic a good caning.
The only money that remains in the county is the wages paid to the employees. And their hearts won't be bleeding when there isn't enough money to go round and keep the tills in all these outlets going. Tesco? That should be here to stay. The others? Watch this space.
My personal New Year's resolution? I cut up my credit cards and I'm only shopping with cash. This week alone, safe from impulse spends, I managed to save almost £200. In a year that adds up to almost £10k.
I wish you all a happy and prudent New year
And your point is?
girls, love to shop, whether they have money or not, after having children you come 2nd and kiddies fashion is fun, and a bit of light hearted banter about the sales, in a world where there is a lot of doom and gloom, just gives you a wee lift, showing an interest in shops especially new shops, shows a healthy interest in the community, and i would also like to prove a point here if i can without getting shot down.....i have had my own business, which i ran successfully for years, i have never ever had a credit card, anything i have ever wanted has been with hard earned cash, and if i didnt have the cash i didnt get it!!!!!!!!! now if you dont mind i am off to apply for MASTERMIND:lol:
I really must get my eyes tested - thats the second post I've misread in as many minutes! I thought you were off to apply for MASTERCARD!! :lol:
People using plastic to pay in shops aren't necessarily using credit cards - I don't have a credit card any more (cut them up), but I do use my bank/debit card for shopping rather than carry a lot of cash around.
I must be one of the few women that just doesn't really enjoy shopping all that much. (My daughters are the same!)
My groceries come delivered from Tesco. OK, there's a £3.99 delivery charge midweek, but you can tot up how much you're spending as you go, and it saves me the time and stress of queuing, packing and getting the stuff back home - I don't have a car because there's just nowhere to park it.
I don't begrudge anybody a good choice of shops though.
With a credit card, it just seems so much easier to spend money, because it isn't yours - when I had credit cards, to start out with it was "only for emergencies" but somehow over time it became for things I didn't really need at all.
The silly sums lenders will give for mortages has just fuelled the rise in house prices, so people are having to borrow more and more to even get on the "property ladder".:( Then if they're really over-stretched they end up having to buy essentials on credit cards...:( ...
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-07, 21:21
The silly sums lenders will give for mortages has just fuelled the rise in house prices, so people are having to borrow more and more to even get on the "property ladder".:( Then if they're really over-stretched they end up having to buy essentials on credit cards...:( ...
I'm sorry, Angela, but this isn't right. I'm not a huge fan of mortgage lenders but property prices rise, not because lenders lend silly money, but because people have become convinced that property is a one-way investment bet and are willing to stretch themselves to buy the best house they can possibly lay their hands on - certain that if they do they'll make more money when they sell. Mortgage advances follow demand; they don't create it.
Mortgage lending is regulated by the Financial Services Authority and lenders are under a duty to "lend responsibly"; that's why it's difficult now to get "self-certified" mortgages. Lenders have to satisfy themselves that the borrower can afford the repayments, and also they have to go to an enormous amount of trouble to point out to people what the financial effects are of interest rate increases. The FSA has real teeth, and uses them.
The problem is also that people tell lies; to get the house they want they'll tell porkies - forgetting about the credit card debt, telling the lender it's paid off in full each month - all sorts of ways of minimising their outgoings so the lender's affordability calculation is more generous. People buying houses aren't thinking "mortgage", they're thinking "home" and that's why they'll do it.
Then when they get the house, they get "nest building syndrome" and start to spend on new curtains, carpets, furniture - all on credit, of course. All it takes then is any one of interest rate rises, unexpected expenses (baby? Illness?) or unemployment to bring the whole thing down round their ears.
The FSA missed a huge opportunity when it regulated mortgages; it should have regulated credit cards and unsecured lending - those are where the kids in banks, targeted to the eyeballs to sell credit cards and loans, give "advice" to people and will sell one of these products in preference to referring someone for specific and proper credit advice.
It's strange how when people get into difficulty it's always the lender's fault. They refuse the accident, sickness and unemployment insurance, because it's never going to happen to them. They don't have to take the bank's overpriced product - there are reasonably priced alternatives. They'll take life insurance because they don't understand relative risk - in your twenties and thirties, you're far more likely to lose income because of accident, sickness or redundancy than you are to die.
People need to take responsibility for their credit exposure. Sorry it's a long post, and off-topic too, but it needed saying.
caithness lad
16-Jan-07, 21:34
Okay- so we have Homebase, New look ,Tesco etc. all in sunny Wick, and every weekend the town's retail parks- notice that I didn't say the town- is invaded from Thurso, Helmsdale etc.
Now we are to get a garden centre (Howdens? Dobbies?) plus 2 retail outlets, one of which will probably be Matalan, and the other Pizza Hut/Macdonalds.
I'm really relieved to know that the Highlands are so awash with cash. particularly when I heard the sad story of the young couple who were recently put out of the bungalow they'd built themselves, and left to the mercies of temporary accomodation. Their crime? They'd fallen behind on mortgage repayments and they were overstretched on credit cards/bank loans etc. One of their debts was to a less than scrupulous lender who ordered a car transporter to remove their vehicles. They even took the baby's new buggy- which had come from a catalogue.
My heart bleeds for them. They were not shopping junkies. Neither were they irresponsible people at heart.
I've kept an eye on the forum- particularly on all the threads devoted to shops. It appears that the least literate of the orgers are the most desperate to get out their and give their plastic a good caning.
The only money that remains in the county is the wages paid to the employees. And their hearts won't be bleeding when there isn't enough money to go round and keep the tills in all these outlets going. Tesco? That should be here to stay. The others? Watch this space.
My personal New Year's resolution? I cut up my credit cards and I'm only shopping with cash. This week alone, safe from impulse spends, I managed to save almost £200. In a year that adds up to almost £10k.
I wish you all a happy and prudent New yearim a bit like the folkes in times gone by, if u want an item house included, then save up for it:Razz
I'm sorry, Angela, but this isn't right. Mortgage advances follow demand; they don't create it.
People need to take responsibility for their credit exposure. Sorry it's a long post, and off-topic too, but it needed saying.
I don't really disagree with that - houses prices have always risen, and yes, mortgages supply the demand that's there -but recent rises, at least in some areas, have made buying a house unaffordable for many. People start to panic and think if they don't buy now, they'll never be able to, so there's more pressure. How often do we hear on the news about house prices continuing to rise? I think it's understandable that people feel they need to buy even when it may not be responsible to do so - I don't think it's quite the same as just thinking "I want something so I must have it".
Having said that...my three grown-up children are all renting, because they know they can't afford to buy -although my son, working for several years in a bank & dealing with mortgages :confused was offered a ridiculous mortgage - he knew he couldn't possibly afford to repay it and didn't take it up. I would have thought that as they paid his salary, and all the staff had to have staff bank accounts, his employers might have realised this too...?
Sorry this is off the retail park topic, but connected to the family who were evicted, which whatever their circumstances, is always sad.
Okay- so what point am I making?
This one: Wick is a small town. Thurso likewise is also quite a small town. Do small communities really need Homebase and B&Q in one small location? This combination has the population to warrant it in Inverness. Similarly the central belt larger towns can sustain this type of commerce. Is there really enough money locally to justify this and still keep the existing garden centres at Castletown, Wick and Janetstown in business?
I've already seen people originally employed in Homebase now working in Tesco- after they were laid off in Homebase. The moment that Tesco- already considering reducing opening hours- decide to cut back, will these poor folk end up working in B&Q?
Remember the 1980's? Interest rates are on the rise again-borrowing is at an all time high and sooner or later the bubble will burst. My late husband worked for M&S European division. When they cut back their foreign operations he was made redundant, and died of a heart attack, caused largely by the stress of having to be unemployed for the first time in his life. Fortunately he had a generous life insurance package- and those he left behind weren't left to suffer financially.
What if all these new stores have to share in a very limited pot of cash. Do you think they will stay open if all of a sudden people are not chucking money at them? The town might be able to sustain the existing provision- although the bells are already tolling for Somerfield. I know one shopkeeper who planned to hand on his business to a family member- but given the changes recently is now planning to retire, but keeping the place open for a short time only because he doesn't have the heart to lay his workforce off- and he's now running at a loss.
Add a few more superstores to the equation, give everyone a higher interest rate on their mortgages and sooner of later- bang!
Unless something huge- and I mean huge on the scale of an oil terminal, or a nuclear fusion plant opening happens to boost the Caithness economy we may find ourself living with the consequences. How much money does our community really have to put into retail? I'm not trying to keep the wolf from my door-but even I have to know when to be careful. I was asked last week in Mackays 'is there a reason why you haven't spent any money with us recently?' They're concerned that they're not meeting their targets. Boots and Woolies have similar concerns-and as these are shops in the centre of town- I think it is important that we keep them. After all they came to Wick when it really was a one horse town.
What is preventing Next from taking the old RS Waters shop? It's big, central and has car parking nearby.
The real winners are the developers- what do they care if they build a superstore which stays open a few months and closes down? My current partner is a senior shareholder in such a firm of developers, who specialise in building shopping malls - and he really is laughing all the way to the bank.
j4bberw0ck
16-Jan-07, 23:23
im a bit like the folkes in times gone by, if u want an item house included, then save up for it:Razz
I don't disagree - in principle.
Trouble is, when house prices have at various times gone up by say £1000 a month,can you save fast enough? Why would you wait longer and pay perhaps £50,000 more than you need to for a house? I'm (truly) sorry to say it, but people who think like you and who don't own a house outright, will be forever condemned to WANT to own a house. Times gone by are fine. But not now. Things are different, at the housing level.
girls, love to shop, whether they have money or not, after having children you come 2nd and kiddies fashion is fun, and a bit of light hearted banter about the sales, in a world where there is a lot of doom and gloom, just gives you a wee lift, showing an interest in shops especially new shops, shows a healthy interest in the community, and i would also like to prove a point here if i can without getting shot down.....i have had my own business, which i ran successfully for years, i have never ever had a credit card, anything i have ever wanted has been with hard earned cash, and if i didnt have the cash i didnt get it!!!!!!!!! now if you dont mind i am off to apply for MASTERMIND:lol:
Heidi- I note you said you 'had' your own business. I take it that you no longer have a business.
Showing an interest in shops- especially new shops does show an interest in a particular community- but not necessarily the one where you live. Can anyone honestly call an out of town shopping mall a community? A good friend of mine is a single vamp- a very smart lady with a mind like a razor, but an unfortunate liking for very short term relationships with married men- whom she picks up, she tells me, not in clubs or bars- but in Homebase or B&Q. She was very worried when she walked into Tesco and the chap she had recently dumped followed her up the aisles to talk to her- pursued by his wife and his four small children! perhaps old fashioned ironmongers of the 'four candles' era have much to be said for a 'sense of community' Heidi
Okay- so what point am I making?
This one: Wick is a small town. Thurso likewise is also quite a small town.
What if all these new stores have to share in a very limited pot of cash.
Add a few more superstores to the equation, give everyone a higher interest rate on their mortgages and sooner of later- bang!
Unless something huge- and I mean huge on the scale of an oil terminal, or a nuclear fusion plant opening happens to boost the Caithness economy we may find ourself living with the consequences. How much money does our community really have to put into retail?
Surely a question of whether the cake can really be made any bigger? Or whether it's just being sliced up differently? Which may not ultimately benefit the local community.
I was also widowed - my late husband died quite young from a stroke subsequent to a (retail) business bankruptcy -as we were partners in the business we lost everything. We had felt pressure to expand to survive and it didn't work out. We did make sure all our staff were paid every last penny though. So I do feel for the owners of small businesses that can't survive the changes in retailing. You're right - the big chains won't fold if the odd store doesn't do as well as hoped and they pull out.
I hardly think that Tesco or any of the other stores opening in Wick caused the Governor of the Bank of England to be panicked into raising interest rates or cause the increases in property prices.
Remember the fuss about how Wetherspoons were going to turn Wick into a Ghost Town as soon as they opened with every Bar within 50 miles closing down? Remember the panic about Lidl along with the same predictions of it being a disaster for Wick?
I'm still waiting anxiously for the disaster's predicted by the Harbinger's of Doom to occur. I'm not holding my breath though and I wouldn't advise anybody else to either.
I'm still waiting anxiously for the disaster's predicted by the Harbinger's of Doom to occur.
good old fashioned human nature....
why does it take an explosion before we realise that the taper needs to be extingiushed...
while most economies are still based on bottom line gains as apposed to community improvement, its all on one big freefall.... (IMO obviously) but i suppose making mistakes is how human nature develops... its just so damn frustrating that it takes so long, and so many mistakes have to be made...
Its a good job i dont believe in re-incarnation... :D
weeboyagee
17-Jan-07, 23:23
Okay- so what point am I making?
This one: Wick is a small town. Thurso likewise is also quite a small town. Do small communities really need Homebase and B&Q in one small location? This combination has the population to warrant it in Inverness.
Says who? Our community's population and loads of other local community populations were swelling the hoards that were bombarding Inverness on a weekly basis at the weekends. So much so these shop chains decided to relocate at a time they believed there was sufficient trade to merit their existence up here. It's not just Wick and Thurso - it's the North of Scotland and Orkney - typical Caithness minds think inside the box - within the Ord - how many times have I posted that before??? But of course - us folks in Caithness know ALL about how to run the economy beyond the Ord and therefore know exactly how much these chains have got it wrong locating here, don't we? Uh-huh!
Similarly the central belt larger towns can sustain this type of commerce. Is there really enough money locally to justify this and still keep the existing garden centres at Castletown, Wick and Janetstown in business?
Maybe not - survival of the fittest. But the garden centres will obviously find their own niche in the marketplace and provide for it - either that or they won't survive - that's business.
I've already seen people originally employed in Homebase now working in Tesco- after they were laid off in Homebase. The moment that Tesco- already considering reducing opening hours- decide to cut back, will these poor folk end up working in B&Q?
What do you mean - "these poor folk"? Deary me - a shop chain that knows fine well that it faces seasonal influences can't hire and fire according to the trade increases and decreases because, erm,....let's see,.....the folks who get hired and fired shouldn't be - poor folks that they are? Do I hear you say that the hotel/restaurant and other such summer staff laid off at the end of the tourist season are "poor folks"? Nope - I didn't think so. Another failure to understand the market trends prevailing - whether it be here in Caithness or further south - you think it is no different down there? Well,....I hate to let you know,....but beyond the Ord - OMG - BEYOND THE ORD!!! - it's the same - yip the world below the Ord is as real as it is here and vice versa!
Remember the 1980's? Interest rates are on the rise again-borrowing is at an all time high and sooner or later the bubble will burst. My late husband worked for M&S European division. When they cut back their foreign operations he was made redundant, and died of a heart attack, caused largely by the stress of having to be unemployed for the first time in his life. Fortunately he had a generous life insurance package- and those he left behind weren't left to suffer financially.
With the greatest and sincerest of respect it would be hard to say anything in response to this part without offending but I will try to be as sensitive as I can. I was made redundant for the first time in my life after 17 years at probably one of the most well known businesses in Caithness. I lost all my contributions to my pension and have nothing to show for my time there whatsoever. Unfortunately, market forces and the odd stupid mistake made by the powers that be resulted in my job going up in a puff of smoke. Market forces - yes, driven by competition and all the economic forces prevailing (money, money, money....) caused this - and my ability to do something about it? - not a jot - it's a fact of life - get used to it - or forever end up forlorn at the "world is nigh" future that is catching up on mankind!
What if all these new stores have to share in a very limited pot of cash.
What if the very limited pot of cash is big enough to keep them going?
Do you think they will stay open if all of a sudden people are not chucking money at them?
Rather silly question - erm,....let's see,......nope - I don't think they will. Oh dear,....that would mean more job losses!!!! But the shops will have provided employment and the employees will have been paid wages for the period that they were open. Now of course, if they had never opened - the employees would never have been employed and never have been paid the wages.
The town might be able to sustain the existing provision- although the bells are already tolling for Somerfield. I know one shopkeeper who planned to hand on his business to a family member- but given the changes recently is now planning to retire, but keeping the place open for a short time only because he doesn't have the heart to lay his workforce off- and he's now running at a loss.
Well,....that's just plain silly. I admire that person's heart but not the business sense. There are other jobs that the staff can go look for - he/she is not obliged to provide them for the period of time they have served - their wage allowing them to live and have a life was payment for that. Why should he/she feel any guilt at having to face a simple business fact of life?
Add a few more superstores to the equation, give everyone a higher interest rate on their mortgages and sooner of later- bang!
Unless something huge- and I mean huge on the scale of an oil terminal, or a nuclear fusion plant opening happens to boost the Caithness economy we may find ourself living with the consequences.
We are already living with the consequences - Dounreay happened, now it's not, that's consequences. Meanwhile, Caithness people have got retail choice that they never had before and STILL some of us complain or see the negative!
How much money does our community really have to put into retail? I'm not trying to keep the wolf from my door-but even I have to know when to be careful. I was asked last week in Mackays 'is there a reason why you haven't spent any money with us recently?' They're concerned that they're not meeting their targets. Boots and Woolies have similar concerns-and as these are shops in the centre of town- I think it is important that we keep them. After all they came to Wick when it really was a one horse town.
Yes, and creamed the local economy of what they had at a higher rate than south. We need to keep ALL of the variety provided for us in terms of retail experience but if these premises can't provide the level of service, variety and PRICE that some of the others can then I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.
What is preventing Next from taking the old RS Waters shop? It's big, central and has car parking nearby.
Are you being serious? Are you REALLY being serious? Next is up where it belongs - next to the rest of the big pullers! Why would they want to be located in the town next to the small shops? That is plain retail suicide.
The real winners are the developers- what do they care if they build a superstore which stays open a few months and closes down? My current partner is a senior shareholder in such a firm of developers, who specialise in building shopping malls - and he really is laughing all the way to the bank.
In the words of Esther Rantzen = "THAT'S LIFE!"
:rolleyes:
North Rhins
17-Jan-07, 23:38
I won’t quote all of your replies Weeboyagee all I will say that they were a very astute and accurate. When a major retailer opens a store in Thurso or Wick, they know full well that it won’t earn as much as a store in a Glasgow or Manchester, but it will make some money and that is what it’s all about, the numbers game.
Whining? Moi?
Actually I'm not hanging around Caithness for much longer as partner has asked me to move down to be with him in London. I'll be living in Fulham, shopping in Beauchamp Place and Bond Street, and charging everything to him.
I don't need to care about hicks and supermarkets, do I?
However, having spent some time in Caithness and watched the excitement about all your new stores on this site, I feel rather sorry for you all.
None of you have grasped that you've bought into a developers' dream.
I paid a final visit to Tesco this evening. The big manager was up visiting from the south, parading round, clipboard in hand, preaching about point of sale advertising. There were 3 customers. There was a single manned checkout- the 10 items or less one. I overheard talk of cutting a shift and laying people off.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind
North Rhins
18-Jan-07, 00:06
It’s nice to know how you really feel about the ‘Hick’s’ of Caithness. I wish you a speedy move down to London and all I can say is that Caithness’s loss is Fulham’s gain.
j4bberw0ck
18-Jan-07, 00:30
I don't think there's too much need to worry. Tesco, ASDA and the other retailers opening stores in Caithness employ much smarter people than Bagpuss; if they employed Bagpusses, they wouldn't be amongst the world's most successful retailers, would they?
Did they open a store because some Brylcreemed developer said it would work, or because they believe it will? They have people smarter than Bagpuss's Brylcreemed Boyfriend, too.
It's a no-brainer, really; and Bagpuss and Fulham are, I dare to suggest, well matched. I know Fulham rather well and Bagpuss is welcome to it; and Fulham, to Bagpuss. Maybe she'll come back when the Brylcreemed Boyfriend has had enough of her shopping exploits :lol: . What do you say, Baggie?
The existence of these stores will draw people and prosperity in to the area.
Whining? Moi?
Actually I'm not hanging around Caithness for much longer as partner has asked me to move down to be with him in London. I'll be living in Fulham, shopping in Beauchamp Place and Bond Street, and charging everything to him.
I don't need to care about hicks and supermarkets, do I?
However, having spent some time in Caithness and watched the excitement about all your new stores on this site, I feel rather sorry for you all.
None of you have grasped that you've bought into a developers' dream.
I paid a final visit to Tesco this evening. The big manager was up visiting from the south, parading round, clipboard in hand, preaching about point of sale advertising. There were 3 customers. There was a single manned checkout- the 10 items or less one. I overheard talk of cutting a shift and laying people off.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind
London? You're welcome to it. Like most large cities it's not a "Developer's Dream" it's one of Humanities worst Nightmares. Enjoy your trips to the shops straphanging on the tube or crowded onto a Bus or Train and don't forget the traffic, you'll find driving nice and restful after Caithness and parking so much easier.
Oh, and did the nice man from the South with his Clip Board give you the information personally or did you just happen to be following him round for the odd hour or so to glean so many details of Tesco's Business Plans?
Perhaps you can eavesdrop on their next Board Meeting when you get to London. You never know, with the amount of information you managed to obtain from seeing somebody with a Clip Board in Wick they will probably invite you to become a Board Member so you can personally give them details of what every store on Bond Street has for it's Business Plans.
There are always plenty of openings for experts dealing in large cases of Sour Grapes! I'm sure you and London will get on well, I hope you enjoy being there! :roll: Me? I'm just glad I came to Caithness, even the thought of going anywhere near a city again fills me with horror.
Whining? Moi?
Actually I'm not hanging around Caithness for much longer as partner has asked me to move down to be with him in London. I'll be living in Fulham, shopping in Beauchamp Place and Bond Street, and charging everything to him.
I don't need to care about hicks and supermarkets, do I?
However, having spent some time in Caithness and watched the excitement about all your new stores on this site, I feel rather sorry for you all.
None of you have grasped that you've bought into a developers' dream.
I paid a final visit to Tesco this evening. The big manager was up visiting from the south, parading round, clipboard in hand, preaching about point of sale advertising. There were 3 customers. There was a single manned checkout- the 10 items or less one. I overheard talk of cutting a shift and laying people off.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind
"Actually", Bagpuss - I've not felt much like responding to many posts over these past few months, but this one grabbed my attention somehow.
I've lived & worked in Caithness all my life & considered myself a "townie" Hubby is "from the country" - we're a fair match - celebrated our 30th anniversary last year. I googled the "hick" thing - here's what I found :-
Hick (also country hick or country bumpkin) is a derogatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derogatory) term for a person from a rural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural) area.
Enough said, Bagpuss -good luck in London -BTW there's snow forecast for this weekend - best leave early before the snowgates on the Ord close. It would distress me to think of you moping around up here, marooned by "hicks" when Bond Street beckons.
Being a "hick" I'm not too sure what shops are in Bond Street , London - but I guess that's where Tesco, Next, Marks & Sparks etc. are located - and as you have a direct line to the management guys with the clipboards Bagpuss, I'm sure you will keep us hicks in touch.
All the best Bagpuss :)
I'm sorry, Angela, but this isn't right. I'm not a huge fan of mortgage lenders but property prices rise, not because lenders lend silly money, but because people have become convinced that property is a one-way investment bet and are willing to stretch themselves to buy the best house they can possibly lay their hands on - certain that if they do they'll make more money when they sell. Mortgage advances follow demand; they don't create it.
.
I agree (in general terms) with the rest of the post, but cannot see the logic of the above.
When the chairman of Abbey National appears on TV, saying that Parents should re-mortgage their own house (in part), to fund a deposit for their offspring - the logical result (if the parents are gullable enough) is a new-found injection of deposits to revitalise the property market (and hence - rising prices.)
When the leading building societies roll out a policy of allowing 5 times the borrower's salary - it has the natural effect of opening up a whole new price range to each borrower's capability (and hence - rising prices.)
People get desperate when they see house prices rising uncontrollably (Don't you hate the term "property"?) and will throw caution to the wind in an effort to gain entry to the one investment that they feel they can trust (sometimes to provide a partial pension/nestegg for them).
I can't be too critical towards them for that sentiment.
On a slightly connected note: I still feel that Caithness is in an enviable position (although less than, say - 5 years ago) whereby, most young couples, each in full-time employment - can still afford to buy a house.
That is something that most of the UK cannot say.
(oh - J4bberw0ck...... how are you getting on with those "scooter" lessons that Saxvtr was asking about?)
Whining? Moi?
Actually I'm not hanging around Caithness for much longer as partner has asked me to move down to be with him in London. I'll be living in Fulham, shopping in Beauchamp Place and Bond Street, and charging everything to him.
I don't need to care about hicks and supermarkets, do I?
However, having spent some time in Caithness and watched the excitement about all your new stores on this site, I feel rather sorry for you all.
None of you have grasped that you've bought into a developers' dream.
I paid a final visit to Tesco this evening. The big manager was up visiting from the south, parading round, clipboard in hand, preaching about point of sale advertising. There were 3 customers. There was a single manned checkout- the 10 items or less one. I overheard talk of cutting a shift and laying people off.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind
While I may not have rose-tinted glasses about life in Caithness, I have the ability to compare life in the county and in Fulham............
.............. and the winner is.............CAITHNESS!
Not everything is right in the county, but your "yoo-hoo-toodle-oo-I'm through" post guarantees one thing......... when you bail out of Fulham when you have a family and despair over the education and social situation there - there will be people in Caithness that remember..........
If you are gloating over "charging everything to him" ....... it sounds like you have a really shallow relationship.
Good luck there, and I hope you enjoy your credit cards - long may they last.
j4bberw0ck
20-Jan-07, 14:07
When the chairman of Abbey National appears on TV, saying that Parents should re-mortgage their own house (in part), to fund a deposit for their offspring - the logical result (if the parents are gullable enough) is a new-found injection of deposits to revitalise the property market (and hence - rising prices.)
I'll refrain from pointing out that Abbey National hasn't existed for some years :lol: but I'm surprised the chairman would suggest such a thing anywhere, anytime. He should know that lending to pensioners (if they're retired or approaching retirement) is something that needs a huge amount of thought.
I think you're confusing two things. Certainly, too much money chasing too few goods is a classic for rising prices. Why are there too few houses? Second homes (socially unacceptable) purchasers is one reason; the people (socially acceptable) who've decided their pension should be in property and have bought 2 or 3 or more houses for their buy-to-let portfolio is another; and the rising divorce / relationship split up rate is another.
Add to that that the Government restricts housing, charges VAT on renovation but not on new build and there's your housing shortage.
One other factor; the much-praised Scottish system of house buying. It's rubbish. Makes surveyors and lawyers lots of money. Inviting "offers over" in buoyant housing markets forces prices higher and higher and more or less guarantees that first time buyers are out of the market because lenders lend on house value, not the inflated premium you have to pay to get the seller to accept your offer. That bit, you need in cash.
So, the other bit: if house prices are high because of shortage, the investment returns become spectacular and people believe they can't fail to make 20%, 30%, 40% a year! The sky's the limit.......... so they borrow more.
It's not for lenders to police the housing market. Think of a single, professional man in a high-earning job, few outgoings, and money to indulge himself. Then a family on a lower income, three kids, two cars. Both want a £100,000 mortgage to buy the same house. The two lending propositions are quite different if you take the view that the lender's job is not to stuff the borrower, because the decision is made on affordability, not simple income multiple. Suggesting that the lender should limit the loan to what it thinks is a reasonable amount for a house is like a petrol station not selling petrol when the price is high - both would be out of business.
In Tokyo, land prices / property prices are now so high that lenders have had to introduce the 100 year mortgage so they can increase the salary multiple! You buy the house and pass it and the mortgage to your kids....:lol:
Sorry for the long post.
(oh - J4bberw0ck...... how are you getting on with those "scooter" lessons that Saxvtr was asking about?)
Well, in fairness it wasn't saxovtr, but I think I'm getting good enough to get the stabiliser wheels off it next week, and then after that I'll get the 33bhp restrictor removed....... before long I'll be able to ride for as much as half and hour!
Are you being serious? Are you REALLY being serious? Next is up where it belongs - next to the rest of the big pullers! Why would they want to be located in the town next to the small shops? That is plain retail suicide.
This statement sums up the nonsense about Tesco et al helping the existing stores in the town centre. If it is retail suicide for Next to be away from the "big pullers" then how can anyone with half a grip on logic shout about the benefit that retail parks and megastores bring to the small stores?
It is not just Caithness who use the new Tesco and other stores at Wick. Shoppers from Orkney and sutherland shop here too now, bringing trade to caithness instead of Inverness. How many people from Caithness were regularly going to Inverness to shop? People are coming from all over to shop here now and then go down the town and shop in the local shops and use the restaurants and pubs for a meal. They come here and make a day of it.
I think its great and i have saved a lot of money by shopping in Tesco. It is good for local pensioners and disabled people who cannot manage to get to Inverness to shop. Now they have everything on their doorstep. They can even use wheelchairs and scooters to get around tesco and the staff are very friendly. also Tesco give to caithness charities.
If people dont like it they dont have to go there and can shop as they did before.!!
If Tesco is keeping custom in Caithness which was previously going to Inverness, and also bringing people in from outside the county, who will spend more money in the area, that must be good for Caithness.:)
Keeping a thriving town centre going at the same time as developing shopping outwith the centre is often difficult though, and local retailers usually do see a threat rather than an opportunity.
I'm an outsider and can only speak from living in a village near a small town, where I was delighted to have Tesco -not a very big one, no clothes or electrical goods, but they did have a cafe and petrol.
After a while, Tesco decided they were doing so well they wanted to expand to a bigger site nearby and their old site could be taken over by B&Q and others. I'm sure the demand was there.
There were lots of protests from small businesses because shops in the town centre weren't doing so well. Some were old family businesses that had perhaps not adapted to change and had come to the end of their natural life. People often said it was sad if they closed down, but I'm not sure how many of us had actually used them when they were there.
There was also an unsightly near-derelict area in the town that could have been redeveloped into shops/cafes. However the town centre businesses opposed a plan for that as well as opposing the Tesco expansion, because they thought it would take business away from them.
It would have been much better to have had both Tesco AND a vibrant town centre but that didn't seem to happen.
Perhaps if as Fran says more people are using the local shops/restaurants when they visit the Wick Tesco, that will provide more custom for some local businesses and they might see it as an opportunity rather than a threat?
It is not just Caithness who use the new Tesco and other stores at Wick. Shoppers from Orkney and sutherland shop here too now, bringing trade to caithness instead of Inverness. How many people from Caithness were regularly going to Inverness to shop? People are coming from all over to shop here now and then go down the town and shop in the local shops and use the restaurants and pubs for a meal. They come here and make a day of it.
I think its great and i have saved a lot of money by shopping in Tesco. It is good for local pensioners and disabled people who cannot manage to get to Inverness to shop. Now they have everything on their doorstep. They can even use wheelchairs and scooters to get around tesco and the staff are very friendly. also Tesco give to caithness charities.
If people dont like it they dont have to go there and can shop as they did before.!!
I am not talking about Tesco in general here. I am addressing one particular aspect and that is this much quoted but unproven theory that Tesco and the retail parks bring benefit to the town centre stores. Have you got access to the numbers of Orkney and Sutherland who are using Tescos? More importantly, do you know how much they are spending in Town Centre shops?
I do not hear large numbers of Orkney accents when going about the centre of town and it does not appear that the town is any busier at all.
If someone like Next would not set up in the Town Centre for fear that customers would not come from the retail park to shop with them, then why would those same customers go into the town centre for the "old" shops?
I use Lidls for most of my shopping and Somerfield for odd items and this has not changed with Tesco opening. I have had a good look around Tesco and can tell that it would be more expensive if I were to shop there. Some items are cheaper but there is certainly no way I could save "a lot of money". They have a great range of goods but most of the items I see that are unavailable elsewhere are items I would class as "upmarket" and therefore more expensive. That is great if you are looking for those items and don't mind paying more but if you are buying these things in addition to your normal shop or as a replacement for a lesser product then you are not saving money.
As for Angela's statement that Tesco is keeping money in Caithness, this is an old chestnut, the money goes to Tesco. OK staff get wages but how many of these staff were working elsewhere in Caithness anyway? How many were in Somerfield and have not been replaced? Look to Inverness, with over half all monies going to Tesco, that does not make for a Tesco/Vibrant Town Centre dream team.
wavy davy
22-Jan-07, 00:28
May as well throw in my tuppenchworth here.
First, as others have observed, a large proportion of the money that is going into the tills of the new stores is money that was formerly spent in Inverness and Aberdeen.
Second, I work in one of the stores and I know first hand that many of our customers are from Orkney, the West Coast, Helmsdale.etc.
Third, and I'll leave it to someone better informed than myself to comment on the statistics, there are a considerable number of incomers to Caithness. I've served Americans, Canadians, South Africans, Poles, Germans, French, not to mention the English. These people are spending money big time, not just on groceries but establishing homes here,
IMHO the big store planners have got it right and I would be very very surprised if any of them close down.
Regarding the demise of the shops in the town, with all due respect to the people who work there, what have Woolies and Mackays got to offer that makes it worthwhile to park and walk.
As for money staying in Caithness as opposed to being spirited away down south, I don't see that the "old" Woolies, Somerfields, Boots and Mackays are any different to the "new" Tesco, Homebase, B&Q et al. There are very few businesses in the town that stand the test of money staying in Caithness,
I grew up in Wick and I can remember the way the town used to be - full of wee shops and the crack on every corner. For a number of reasons, not least that the majority of folk these days want variety, convenience and value for money, like it or not (and I don't like it) those days are gone.
I see no palatable alternative to the centre of Wick becoming more residential with a few speciality shops, cafes, solicitors, banks forming the business sector. Instead of engaging in futile diatribes about a lost way of life, IMHO we and our elected representatives should be thinking about how we achieve that (or another palatable alternative I haven't thought of)
First, as others have observed, a large proportion of the money that is going into the tills of the new stores is money that was formerly spent in Inverness and Aberdeen.
As for money staying in Caithness as opposed to being spirited away down south, I don't see that the "old" Woolies, Somerfields, Boots and Mackays are any different to the "new" Tesco, Homebase, B&Q et al. There are very few businesses in the town that stand the test of money staying in Caithness,
Large proportion? Would that be greater than 50%? As you admit yourself, it is not money that is helping Caithness. How many jobs was Tesco supposed to bring? Are they full time jobs? Are they sustainable jobs? How many came from existing jobs? How many were token people taken from the job centre and may have lost their job on day 1?
My point was never about what other shops such as Woolies and Mackays had to offer, it was whether or not they would be affected by Tesco et al. Plenty of opinion suggested that they would not be affected, others said that they would benefit from the new stores. Planning permission is granted on factors such as bringing greater employment and the benefits for the local community at large. Where is the proof that these expectations have been met?
By the same token, where is the proof they haven't?
weeboyagee
22-Jan-07, 15:50
Large proportion? Would that be greater than 50%?
Would it need to be - I have 100 items made up of 40 individual amounts, all of varying quantities. I add up 10 amounts and they come to a total of 35 items. Thats a large proportion. I add up 23 of them and I get 55 - that's the GREATER proportion. You are trying to support your point of view where no support exists.
How many jobs was Tesco supposed to bring? Are they full time jobs? Are they sustainable jobs? How many came from existing jobs? How many were token people taken from the job centre and may have lost their job on day 1?
What's your point here? Jobs have been provided, end of story. They were provided by the available workers in the community in it's entirity which is every person available to work whether in current employment or not. There will be a nucleus of workers at Tescos all year round I am sure - but there will be peaks and troughs like every other business that is affected by seasonal and market influences, so again - what's your point on this one? If we are going back to the point that the workers (as I believe you are trying to suggest) are going to come from Somerfield and Co-op and other retailers then what does it matter where they work - if you are trying to say that there are less jobs available for the greater store in operation after the former employers go bust then you are promoting (I believe) that we keep all the big businesses out of the community, pay the higher prices for the nominal amount of extra jobs that would be provided??? The fact that more people with their spending power are staying in the community to spend means they are not going SOUTH to spend. I don't accept the argument that the only shop they will spend in if they stay in the community is Tesco!
My point was never about what other shops such as Woolies and Mackays had to offer, it was whether or not they would be affected by Tesco et al. Plenty of opinion suggested that they would not be affected, others said that they would benefit from the new store
Who cares? I don't care about Woollies, MacKays etc..... I care about the community. If they don't want Tescos they won't buy there and Tesco will go bust. If they do want Tescos, they will buy there and they won't go bust. If there are other goods they want provided by the other stores in the town then they won't go bust either.
Planning permission is granted on factors such as bringing greater employment and the benefits for the local community at large.
Since when were these the qualifying factors of receiving planning permission???
Where is the proof that these expectations have been met?
Good grief.....how long has the place been open for - we haven't even gone into the tourist season and yet we are asking for the track record of Tesco to show a benefit to the community at large. Get this one - the greater benefit to the community is the choice and greater ability to satisfy "wants" that is provided by Tesco - providing the greater feel-good factor for all. The more money to spend not having put the petrol into the car at 5p dearer than normal per litre, albeit given the greater choice the consumer may choose to spend the saved cash in Tescos itself!
I truly do not see the point in this argument. Caithness has been kicked up the backside into getting into the 22nd Century with the big retailers whereas previously the two retail centres of Wick and Thurso were a disgrace to our county and yet some of us STILL COMPLAIN!
The coming summer will (hopefully) let the travelling tourist see that we are not in the sticks with no sense of commercial retailing and with only charity shops, bookies and pubs as our main offering!
By the same token, where is the proof they haven't?
Take a look at Wick High Street on a Saturday.
Would it need to be - I have 100 items made up of 40 individual amounts, all of varying quantities. I add up 10 amounts and they come to a total of 35 items. Thats a large proportion. I add up 23 of them and I get 55 - that's the GREATER proportion. You are trying to support your point of view where no support exists.
What's your point here?
Your numbers analogy has no bearing. There is money going into a till, I asked if the proportion of this money which used to go down South is greater than 50%, that is a simple yes or no answer.
My point here is simply based on Tesco being touted as a panacea for Wick. I hear of hundreds of jobs created and the spin-off benefit for other stores. I question the actual number of jobs and I do not see the existing stores making any hay on the back of the Tesco bonanza. Numbers of jobs quoted and benefits to the community are things that matter to me, obviously the numbers mean little to yourself.
No doubt the tourists will note that we have a Tesco, they will also note that we still have bookies, takeaway joints, charity shops and boarded up buildings for a town centre. A boarded up Woollies is not good for the community you care about so much!!
ps it is only the 21st Century, yer trying to see too far into the future Wee Nostro ;o)
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