View Full Version : The Facts about Johnys Benefits after Independence
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 13:20
Right, as requested by Squidge
Please enlighten us to how Johny will be better off after Independence ( remember only proven facts, not hopes and dreams)
Equus i cant offer proven facts because that would suggest that it had already happened and I could show you how it had been done.
I can explain why I think an independent Scotland would be better at dealing with the Welfare issue if you want and the reasons why I believe that. I am not sure whether you want that cos you dont agree with me. It is my opinion thats all. Do you want my opinion and my reasons, I dont expect to convince you or for you to agree with me so it is likely to be completely pointless excercise. I dont really think that many people are actually interested in my opinions which is why I rarely start threads on Independence. If all you want to do is continue to call me stupid and anti british, there really isnt much point.
What I will suggest is that unless others join in this thread and say they are intrested we can discuss it by PM or face to face over a cuppa, either here or there. We can then post a summary of our views here without all the slagging off you seem to like to do.
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 13:48
Equus i cant offer proven facts because that would suggest that it had already happened and I could show you how it had been done.
I can explain why I think an independent Scotland would be better at dealing with the Welfare issue if you want and the reasons why I believe that. I am not sure whether you want that cos you dont agree with me. It is my opinion thats all. Do you want my opinion and my reasons, I dont expect to convince you or for you to agree with me so it is likely to be completely pointless excercise.
oh I thought reading some of your posts that you knew something we didn't, and most of those posts are in answer to things that you disagree with, but you still post them and don't consider it a pointless exercise, or does it only become a pointless exercise when you have no valid answers?
Right, as requested by Squidge
Please enlighten us to how Johny will be better off after Independence ( remember only proven facts, not hopes and dreams)
Sorry but the only person who could answer this since you want only proven Facts is................Dr Who. He could pop into his TARDIS and zip into the future just for you.
I have valid answers, they are MY answers and MY opinions. I cant offer proven facts. I give an opinion and offer the evidence to support that opinion. My posts are just what they are, sometimes I agree sometimes I disagree - we have talked about welfare before on these boards so my views are not a secret. What I do know is that I am not going to change your mind, inam not trying to do so. I usually try to offer an alternative view or clarify or give people the opportunity to think about a different point of view. It is however very dull to have to repeat the same thing over several threads in the space of a few days and I am sure most posters are bored bored bored with it. So in view of that, unless anyone is desperate to hear my OPINIONS on welfare then I dont think there is much point. Do you?
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 14:03
I have valid answers, they are MY answers and MY opinions. I cant offer proven facts. I give an opinion and offer the evidence to support that opinion. My posts are just what they are, sometimes I agree sometimes I disagree - we have talked about welfare before on these boards so my views are not a secret. What I do know is that I am not going to change your mind, inam not trying to do so. I usually try to offer an alternative view or clarify or give people the opportunity to think about a different point of view. It is however very dull to have to repeat the same thing over several threads in the space of a few days and I am sure most posters are bored bored bored with it. So in view of that, unless anyone is desperate to hear my OPINIONS on welfare then I dont think there is much point. Do you?
No none whatsoever :lol:
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 14:05
Sorry but the only person who could answer this since you want only proven Facts is................Dr Who. He could pop into his TARDIS and zip into the future just for you.
exactly, so why make virtual biased comparisons without knowing facts?
What was I making a comparison about? I wasnt making ANY comparisons I was trying to show how REAL poverty exists today. M swanson says it doesnt and I dont agree. None of the thongs that happened to John were far fetched or impossible. I made NO assertions about independence being better or worse for John at all. It was a discussion about poverty.
exactly, so why make virtual biased comparisons without knowing facts?
So in other words you asked a question you knew no one could answer. So a completely pointless question and post.
I have valid answers, they are MY answers and MY opinions. I cant offer proven facts.
Well at last Squidge, the truth! After independence the state of Scotland will be in the clouds no one knows anything. Where will the money come from to run this country, and dont tell me oil, that will not last for ever, what else will pay for the welfare state that many live off. Where will the money for the Healthcare come from? In my opinion not even the revenue from the mostly foreign owned Whisky trade is going to save us, see the recent headlines. The Why's and What if's are too numeral to count.
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 14:18
So in other words you asked a question you knew no one could answer. So a completely pointless question and post.
im surprised you have taken time to join this pointless post then
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 14:25
I made NO assertions about independence being better or worse for John at all.
Ok I apologize, I didn't realize that you admit you don't know if people on benefits will be better or worse off after Independence, I assumed someone who slags the current Government of so much about benefits wouldn't be doing so if they wasn't sure about it!
im surprised you have taken time to join this pointless post then
I am surprised you admit it was pointless in starting this thread. Now that you agree it is pointless are you going to close it now?
Well at last Squidge, the truth! After independence the state of Scotland will be in the clouds no one knows anything. Where will the money come from to run this country, and dont tell me oil, that will not last for ever, what else will pay for the welfare state that many live off. Where will the money for the Healthcare come from? In my opinion not even the revenue from the mostly foreign owned Whisky trade is going to save us, see the recent headlines. The Why's and What if's are too numeral to count.
Golach. I have never ever said that I offer anything other than my opinion. Where I talk about FACT like the FACT servicemen and women are not being denied a vote or that it has been SNP policy for nigh on 25 years to give 16/17 year olds a vote, I say so.
You know you guys, if you want a thread to misrepresent what I say then that is what you should head it up. In these few posts equus has said that this is a thread I requested.... I didnt, I told him that if he wanted a thread then he should start one. He has said that I have made comparisons and assertions that "John" would be better off under independence... I didnt. The other day Equus accused me of having no facts to support a policy which I had already stated that I didnt agree with. What?????
Whilst it is never pointless to discuss Independence if people are hell bent on twisting and misrepresenting what you say for their own amusement it becomes a pointless thing. So just for the record here is my point of view. Clear, unambiguous and so you know.
My views on Independence are exactly that, MY views. My opinions are based on what I read, what I research, what Evidence I find. Some of that will be factual, some will be opinion and some will be based on my own experience and morality. You can choose to decide what you think, accept my opinions or not. I do not think or expect to convince or persuade people and I do not tell people how to vote. I simply give my own opinion and its up to others what they make of it. Is that clear enough for you?
As for your responses, I am interested in understanding why people support the union, John Little's stuff today about invisibles was interesting if a little out of date. What is not interesting is the rubbish that is posted about armaggedon, ir the insults that pepper some posts.
Ok I apologize, I didn't realize that you admit you don't know if people on benefits will be better or worse off after Independence, I assumed someone who slags the current Government of so much about benefits wouldn't be doing so if they wasn't sure about it!I have a view with the welfare policies of this government. I have a view on how to get people off benefits and into work. I fundamentally disagree on the opinions of the media and the government about wefare recipients. My views are posted in plenty of places on this board. Whilst there are some plans for tackling these issues after independence these are not yet complete. I know there is a working party looking at it just now. I have an opinion on what needs to be done but I have said these things many times, its hardly a view which keeps changing.
Humerous Vegetable
04-Apr-13, 16:13
Squidge, don't let yourself become over-exercised by these threads. The brainless Incomers who troll these sites are doing more for the Yes vote than Alex Salmond ever could.
Welfare policy after independence will be exactly what it is before independence; ie: can the state afford to pay legal aid for 3 people who murdered 6 children and had been living on the child benefit of 11 children for umpteen years?
Maybe whichever government is elected after 2014 will take the opportunity to tighten things up. Who kens, no me.
cptdodger
04-Apr-13, 16:24
The brainless Incomers who troll these sites
Exactly who are you referring to ?
brainless Incomers who troll these sites are doing more for the Yes vote than Alex Salmond ever could.Interesting viewpoint. I assume 'Incomers' wouldn't be allowed to vote in your referendum?
Who are 'Incomers'??
Humerous Vegetable
04-Apr-13, 17:09
Exactly who are you referring to ?
I expect that I am referring to those who came into Scotland (?incomer) have no history or appreciation of the country, apart from the cheaper house prices and not having to pay Council Tax and who decide to inflict their political views upon those of us who were born here, have always paid taxes here and have a cultural basis upon which to base our referendum vote. I don't know....what is your definition of an incomer?
Humerous Vegetable
04-Apr-13, 17:20
Interesting viewpoint. I assume 'Incomers' wouldn't be allowed to vote in your referendum?
Who are 'Incomers'??
If you are registered to vote and are a resident of Scotland, why wouldn't you be able to vote? It's not my referendum actually.
cptdodger
04-Apr-13, 17:54
I expect that I am referring to those who came into Scotland (?incomer) have no history or appreciation of the country, apart from the cheaper house prices and not having to pay Council Tax and who decide to inflict their political views upon those of us who were born here, have always paid taxes here and have a cultural basis upon which to base our referendum vote. I don't know....what is your definition of an incomer?
So, because these people were not born in Scotland, you brand them as "brainless" and trolls. Unless I am mistaken, Squidge was not born in Scotland. And as for me, I have never branded anybody an "incomer" I was not born in this part of the country so do not have your unique way of describing people who are not from here.
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 18:12
The brainless Incomers
like to elaborate on this before you get suspended?
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 18:14
I am surprised you admit it was pointless in starting this thread. Now that you agree it is pointless are you going to close it now?
well I was about to,but it seems people are enjoying it and it is keeping you busy!
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 18:22
The brainless Incomers who troll these sites are doing more for the Yes vote than Alex Salmond ever could.
yes and racist bigoted rants by fools like you will make sure Independence never happens:lol: thank God
Humerous Vegetable
04-Apr-13, 18:22
So, because these people were not born in Scotland, you brand them as "brainless" and trolls. Unless I am mistaken, Squidge was not born in Scotland. And as for me, I have never branded anybody an "incomer" I was not born in this part of the country so do not have your unique way of describing people who are not from here.
Sorry, I assumed for were looking for a definition of "incomer" and already knew what "brainless" and "troll" meant. I don't really care where anybody was born, except when they move into a place and bring their bigoted opinions and closed minds with them. I greatly admire Squidge for her calm and reasoned responses to some of the extremely silly replies on here, and for not losing her temper, which I am about to do, so will now depart.
equusdriving
04-Apr-13, 18:26
bigoted opinions and closed minds
I think you win that one, hands down
cptdodger
04-Apr-13, 18:42
Sorry, I assumed for were looking for a definition of "incomer" and already knew what "brainless" and "troll" meant. I don't really care where anybody was born, except when they move into a place and bring their bigoted opinions and closed minds with them. I greatly admire Squidge for her calm and reasoned responses to some of the extremely silly replies on here, and for not losing her temper, which I am about to do, so will now depart.
Luckily for Squidge, you agree with her, if not, she would (in your opinion) just be another "brainless incomer".
What a horrible way to describe anybody.
As for your responses, I am interested in understanding why people support the union.
I support the United Kingdom, because I am British, and I support the status quo, I have no time for Eck Salmond and his breakaway ideas, I have seen or heard nothing that will make me change my mind. Scotland as I see her, will never be able to stand alone, and I see no need to, I am voting NO!!!
Well at last Squidge, the truth! After independence the state of Scotland will be in the clouds no one knows anything. Where will the money come from to run this country, and dont tell me oil, that will not last for ever, what else will pay for the welfare state that many live off. Where will the money for the Healthcare come from? In my opinion not even the revenue from the mostly foreign owned Whisky trade is going to save us, see the recent headlines. The Why's and What if's are too numeral to count.
I was told by someone who had done the research, the 70% of the people in Scotland don't work. That means they are children, OAPs, disabled, or plain unemployed. In an independent Scotland, 30% would have to support them, and the average wage is not that great. Furthermore, would Scottish politicians have any more scruples that those south of the border? If the unnecessary money they poured into the new Scottish parliament building is anything to go by, I suspect not
I was told by someone who had done the research, the 70% of the people in Scotland don't work. That means they are children, OAPs, disabled, or plain unemployed. In an independent Scotland, 30% would have to support them, and the average wage is not that great. Furthermore, would Scottish politicians have any more scruples that those south of the border? If the unnecessary money they poured into the new Scottish parliament building is anything to go by, I suspect not
As for the scruples of politicians were seeing clearly how they are promising the earth, just how they are to deliver it they don't tell!
The poverty issue is currently one of statistics based on skewed reports. I never actually got an answer on another thread as to what poverty is.
Currently we are seeing a figure being bandied about that 25% of children are living in poverty, and that in an independent Scotland this would change. How? We don't know.
But in an independent Scotland with a new set of rules a politico could lift many of this 25% out of poverty by changing the way poverty is measured, easily fixed without spending a penny.
In fact, according to one analysis, by being a separate country anyone who then holidays in rUK will move up the poverty ladder. (One of the deciding points on child poverty is whether they have a foreign holiday each year)
Another significant issue for areas like Caithness is the support it gets from a Govt at Holyrood. Under the SNP we are seeing the centralising of services and a focus on the central belt, to me it will be the same but different if you live in rural Scotland. Westminster looks after the affluent south east, Holyrood looks after the affluent central belt.
The SNP are currently and slowly moving NHS services away from Caithness to Inverness, how can people on low incomes be expected to travel from Wick / Thurso to Inverness for treatment. Now access to medical treatment also falls into the poverty measurement, so more people will be pushed down the poverty ladder.
But, were talking statistics here, by moving (centralising) services you can massage the figures to show the services are available to more people i.e. the population of Inverness or Glasgow or Edinburgh say. But a handful of people in rural Scotland will not make blip of difference to national statistics when counted by % of population. (simply put, skewing of figures for political gain)
Who currently controls the Scottish NHS purse strings?
The 30% figure for people working and having to support everyone else is nonesense too, income to govt comes from many sources and not just the taxation of peoples wages, more skewed statistics I'm afraid.
Also the welfare bill that is a hot issue at the moment with the media screaming about all the unemployed and those vulnerable in poverty, apparently only 3% goes to support the unemployed, so this poverty issue must be affecting many people that work! So our other hot issue of £53 a week is another smoke & mirrors diversion.
John Little
08-Apr-13, 12:04
Phill - I perhaps should have made myself clearer on another thread. You want a definition of poverty - then the definition of poverty is those whose income falls below the Poverty Line. That is to say those whose income does not meet their needs in modern society; an index which shifts according to inflation.
Currently the Rowntree Trust identifies the poverty line in the UK as being £193 a week- a measure that is widely accepted as accurate.
Sorry if that appears to be bashing on but this basic conclusion by a leading organisation, expert on poverty, seems not to have made the slightest impression in some quarters.
The poverty line varies according to circumstances of course- the Rowntree people publish an .average.
This is quite illustrative though. It's from a bunch of Commie Pinko lefties called the Childrens' Society.
http://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/news-views/our-blog/use-our-new-calculator-track-shifting-poverty-line#calculator
Sorry, I assumed for were looking for a definition of "incomer" and already knew what "brainless" and "troll" meant. I don't really care where anybody was born, except when they move into a place and bring their bigoted opinions and closed minds with them. I greatly admire Squidge for her calm and reasoned responses to some of the extremely silly replies on here, and for not losing her temper, which I am about to do, so will now depart.
Seems to me people moving into an area are being greeted with "bigoted opinions and closed minds".
Phill - I perhaps should have made myself clearer on another thread. You want a definition of poverty - then the definition of poverty is those whose income falls below the Poverty Line. That is to say those whose income does not meet their needs in modern society; an index which shifts according to inflation.
Currently the Rowntree Trust identifies the poverty line in the UK as being £193 a week- a measure that is widely accepted as accurate.
Sorry if that appears to be bashing on but this basic conclusion by a leading organisation, expert on poverty, seems not to have made the slightest impression in some quarters.
The poverty line varies according to circumstances of course- the Rowntree people publish an .average.
This is quite illustrative though. It's from a bunch of Commie Pinko lefties called the Childrens' Society.
http://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/news-views/our-blog/use-our-new-calculator-track-shifting-poverty-line#calculatorCareful John, sounding like a "brainless incomer" there bandying lefty pinko comments about!
OK, £193 per week but for what? Family of 4?
According to your link: "Poverty line, after housing costs are deducted £222.26" (family of 4)
£12k per year AFTER housing costs, £1000 per month! I'd love to live in poverty but I couldn't afford it!
Skewed figures say I. No wonder 25% of kids are 'vulnerable'.
John Little
08-Apr-13, 13:11
Hmmmm.
Skewed.
Worth looking at which Socialist fellow travellers Pinkos we are dealing with then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rowntree_Foundation
piratelassie
08-Apr-13, 13:56
It is obvious to all that the UK Governments policies and outlook on social care is to the right and dreadfully uncaring, where as the Scottish Government shows by it's actions that it does care, prescriptions,education,health care for the elderly etc. etc. Therefore it stands to reason that with independence people with needs will be better cared for than they are at present add dont tell me that the UK cant afford it, the Brittihs Isles are very rich indeed. The distribution of wealth is what is sinfully wrong.
Ok I apologize, I didn't realize that you admit you don't know if people on benefits will be better or worse off after Independence, I assumed someone who slags the current Government of so much about benefits wouldn't be doing so if they wasn't sure about it!
Right, as requested by Squidge
Please enlighten us to how Johny will be better off after Independence ( remember only proven facts, not hopes and dreams)
The independence discussion is a two way street. The undecideds need as much reason to vote for the Union as they do to vote for independence..so Please enlighten us to how Johny will be better off after 2014 if we stay in the Union .( remember only proven facts, not hopes and dreams)
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