BBC's 'The Village.'

[M Swanson]

Did any of you manage to watch the first episode of the 'Village?' It was set in 1914 and showed us firsthand the true meaning of the word, 'poverty.' It was a time of no health service; rents and food paid by the taxpayers and an obligation to do a day's work to earn your keep. Not finding work locally was not an excuse and folks were expected to travel in search of providing their own livelihood. They were grim times, but the people were so different and equal to most that life threw at them. Compared to those times, none of us know we're living. Theirs was 'poverty,' writ large.

It will be interesting to see if the Beeb continue throughout the 20th Century with no attempt to introduce their usual leftwing political bias. I wouldn't bet a tanner on it. I've hear it mentioned, that it's all a cynical exercise, deliberately timed to coincide with the government's initiatives to bring the Welfare System under control. We shall see. Meanwhile, I'm sticking with the programme.

[Phill]

What is the meaning of poverty? True or otherwise.

[M Swanson]

I can't help you with that one, I'm afraid. Only you can decide the "true" meaning of poverty" and you chose not to share your thoughts with us. Mine would follow similar evidence to that contained in "The Village." Did you watch the programme, I wonder? It may be possible to find it on iPlayer and you might even decide that the comparison is useful, especially when applied to what passes for it today. Apparently, by that definition I'm in poverty myself. Poppycock, I say. ;)

[squidge]

How about £53 per week M Swanson?

[squidge]

Or, if you have a spare bedroom £39 per week?

[equusdriving]

How about £53 per week M Swanson?

or wait until independence, we might really know the answer then[disgust]

[Phill]

Only you can decide the "true" meaning of poverty" and you chose not to share your thoughts with us.No, it is not up to me to define true poverty, I am not professionally qualified to do so, however, I would like to know what peoples opinions are. After all it is relative.

Did you watch the programme, I wonder?No.

It may be possible to find it on iPlayer and you might even decide that the comparison is useful, especially when applied to what passes for it today. Apparently, by that definition I'm in poverty myself. Poppycock, I say.I quite agree, I believe my family and I have been in poverty for quite some time. As for watching lefty bias TV crap, no thank you. I, like most, have family that lived through that era and I understand the realities.


How about £53 per week M Swanson?What is the make up of this magical £53, and how would this compare to 1914 costs of living?

[squidge]

The £53 was the amount Ian Duncan Smith said he could live on if he had to. Its more likely to be £56 which is the Jobseekers Allowance rate for people under 25. The JSA rate for over 25s is £71. No idea how it compares to 1914 but surely the relevant question is about how hard it is today.

[M Swanson]

I don't understand what this £53 represents. Is this the only income someone who is unemployed receives? Who pays their rent, or community charge, or dental or glasses costs, etc. Being a pensioner I pay for most of these things myself and I have no complaints, even though I'm on a low income. In fact, I'm grateful. I can, and do, live on about £50 a week, after paying my way. I enjoy the challenge. Maybe IDS can manage to do so as well, if push became shove. His past record certainly makes this possible. Not that I think he should, of course. He's worked hard, been unemployed himself and has earned his current lifestyle and why not? Any answer to the £53 question I raised would be appreciated.

[M Swanson]

No, it is not up to me to define true poverty, I am not professionally qualified to do so, however, I would like to know what peoples opinions are. After all it is relative.

It's for you and each of us to decide on the definition that best fits our understanding of the word. No qualifications are necessary.

I quite agree, I believe my family and I have been in poverty for quite some time. As for watching lefty bias TV crap, no thank you. I, like most, have family that lived through that era and I understand the realities.

I've known hard times, but have never been in what I consider to be poverty. We always had a roof over our heads; food in our bellies, clothes to wear, heating when needed and the prospect of working our way to something even better. My quality of life is much better than it was in my childhood, despite a low income. When I watch a programme such as, "The Village," or read Victorian history, I know how far we've all come. I didn't accuse the Beeb of leftwing bias with regard to this first episode, but am interested to see if it remains that way. Frankly, I'm sceptical, for the reason given.

What is the make up of this magical £53, and how would this compare to 1914 costs of living?

I look forward to a response to that too.

[squidge]

The £53 is an amount that was suggested after rent and bills I think although Im not sure, I didnt hear the piece. If we start with the £71 that someone over 25 on JSA gets each week its perhaps a more realistic figure. Lets say "John" is our jobseeker. He has been unemployed for six months and he lives in a 2 bedroomed council flat on an estate built in the 70s on the outskirts of a biggish town. He is divorced and has two children who spend every second weekend with him and half the school holidays. They are girls aged 9 and 11. He has worked most of his life as a builders Labourer and although this is the longest he has been out of work in ages he has has several shorter periods of unemployment over the last five years, his last job lasted for 7 months and he was paid £9 an hour. He had a sky dish and box but just gets freeview. He owns a car which needs tax and MOT in the next month. Its a nice car, only seven years old and fairly economical to run as it is a diesel. He hasnt been able to put much in the way of petrol in it lately but he will need it when he gets a job and needs it to drive round building sites to look for work. He would do any sort of job and has applied for supermarket work and anything unskilled he can get but no luck so far. He has a pay as you go mobile phone. He is on a busroute and the return fair into town is £4.60. He has a laptop but no landline. Do you think this man is likely to be poor or not?

Oh addition.... He gets his rent of £50 per week paid until this week. He now has to pay £10 per week because he has a spare bedroom. He has to pay £8 a week for council tax and water and he doesnt wear glasses but would get a voucher for £35 (i think) if he did. He would get free dental treatment if he needed it.

Figures from research on internet but feel free to add different figures if you think they are wrong.

[M Swanson]

John certainly is having to struggle, but maybe, like thousands more who formerly found themselves in the same position, he'll strive to find work and succeed. He may need to travel, but there's lots of jobs for labourers and where there's a will .........! After all, my father's generation were obliged to go where the wages were, as did I and many more like me. He'd better get moving quick though, before the Bulgarians and Romanians arrive to join hundreds of thousands of other workers, who have arrived from abroad to fill the unskilled vacancies, that apparently our own have been able to refuse.

And on the other hand, you may be interested to read this article about David, who shares similarities with John. I know the earning potential of market traders, having worked with them at one stage. Believe the figures, if you will. Nobody does, or is expected to, live on £53 a week. More leftwing propaganda.

Benefits reform: 'welfare victim' who dared Iain Duncan Smith to live on £53 is a gambler - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9965891/Benefits-reform-welfare-victim-who-dared-Iain-Duncan-Smith-to-live-on-53-is-a-gambler.html)

[squidge]

Aye M swanson I saw that article too. I too have never met a poor market trader! I worked Salford Market as a Aaturday Job and my sister worked Tommyfield market as teenagers.
The facts are though that there are people living on that sort of money AND less. If you are under 25 and on JSA then you get £56 per week. This can include some of the most vulnerable young people like those leaving care. If you have been found fit for work by ATOS and referred to the jobcentre but they dont think you are fit enough to work then you can end up with less than the £53 per week.

Lets look at John a bit more closely. You say there is plenty of work but yet John hasnt found any. The last job he applied for was a Picker at a warehouse, he heard there was 57 people going for that job. He never heard back. John worked all over the country as a young man but desperately does not want to leave the area because he wont see his daughters if he does. Also his mother lives close by and she hasnt been well. John has a sister but she lives in Australia. His mother is started to be a little confused and John is worrying about her. She lives in a sheltered flat but he tries to pop in at least three times a week and takes her shopping.

John's budget is £71. He spends it as follows. £15 per week on electricity. His flat is all electric, the window frames are draughty and he has storage heaters. There are rumours that the council are going to replace them and he hopes so but doubts it. He spends £8 on his council tax and he now had to spend £14 ( updated figure) on his spare room. He tries to put £10 petrol in the car but doesnt always manage it. When he doesnt he has to catch the bus. To go and sign on costs him £4.60. To go to the shops costs him £4.60. Its a five mile walk each way.He sometimes walks and occasionally gets a lift. He would like to do both things at the same time but he doesnt get his benefit until after he signs on. His phone costs him £5 per week his TV licence £3 per week. He gets his internet through his mobile phone tethering thing so as he doesnt have to have a landline. He has a washing machine so he doesnt need to go to the laundrette.

So lets see £71 per week income.

£55 expenses per week if he puts petrol in the car. That leaves him with £16 for food clothes and to save for tax and MOT his car.

Do you think he is poor yet?

[Jockaholic]

where are the £9 a hour labourer jobs?
good money for unskilled work id be happy with that

[equusdriving]

Aye M swanson I saw that article too. I too have never met a poor market trader! I worked Salford Market as a Aaturday Job and my sister worked Tommyfield market as teenagers.
The facts are though that there are people living on that sort of money AND less. If you are under 25 and on JSA then you get £56 per week. This can include some of the most vulnerable young people like those leaving care. If you have been found fit for work by ATOS and referred to the jobcentre but they dont think you are fit enough to work then you can end up with less than the £53 per week.

Lets look at John a bit more closely. You say there is plenty of work but yet John hasnt found any. The last job he applied for was a Picker at a warehouse, he heard there was 57 people going for that job. He never heard back. John worked all over the country as a young man but desperately does not want to leave the area because he wont see his daughters if he does. Also his mother lives close by and she hasnt been well. John has a sister but she lives in Australia. His mother is started to be a little confused and John is worrying about her. She lives in a sheltered flat but he tries to pop in at least three times a week and takes her shopping.

John's budget is £71. He spends it as follows. £15 per week on electricity. His flat is all electric, the window frames are draughty and he has storage heaters. There are rumours that the council are going to replace them and he hopes so but doubts it. He spends £8 on his council tax and he now had to spend £14 ( updated figure) on his spare room. He tries to put £10 petrol in the car but doesnt always manage it. When he doesnt he has to catch the bus. To go and sign on costs him £4.60. To go to the shops costs him £4.60. Its a five mile walk each way.He sometimes walks and occasionally gets a lift. He would like to do both things at the same time but he doesnt get his benefit until after he signs on. His phone costs him £5 per week his TV licence £3 per week. He gets his internet through his mobile phone tethering thing so as he doesnt have to have a landline. He has a washing machine so he doesnt need to go to the laundrette.

So lets see £71 per week income.

£55 expenses per week if he puts petrol in the car. That leaves him with £16 for food clothes and to save for tax and MOT his car.

Do you think he is poor yet?

wow, poor Johny had better pray we don't get Independence then "The SNP government is privately preparing for the prospect of cuts to jobs, welfare benefits and pensions after independence, amid growing concerns that Scotland faces a bleak economic future, a leaked document has shown" or he will find out what poor really means!

[squidge]

where are the £9 a hour labourer jobs?good money for unskilled work id be happy with thatSo would he if he could get it. That was his last job and it paid well but it only lasted for three months.

[squidge]

wow, poor Johny had better pray we don't get Independence then "The SNP government is privately preparing for the prospect of cuts to jobs, welfare benefits and pensions after independence, amid growing concerns that Scotland faces a bleak economic future, a leaked document has shown" or he will find out what poor really means!Here is the leaked document equus is referring to. http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee08022eec_u9m6vd74f.pdf#page=8&zoom=auto,121,0

[M Swanson]

Aye M swanson I saw that article too. I too have never met a poor market trader! I worked Salford Market as a Aaturday Job and my sister worked Tommyfield market as teenagers.
The facts are though that there are people living on that sort of money AND less. If you are under 25 and on JSA then you get £56 per week. This can include some of the most vulnerable young people like those leaving care. If you have been found fit for work by ATOS and referred to the jobcentre but they dont think you are fit enough to work then you can end up with less than the £53 per week.

Lets look at John a bit more closely. You say there is plenty of work but yet John hasnt found any. The last job he applied for was a Picker at a warehouse, he heard there was 57 people going for that job. He never heard back. John worked all over the country as a young man but desperately does not want to leave the area because he wont see his daughters if he does. Also his mother lives close by and she hasnt been well. John has a sister but she lives in Australia. His mother is started to be a little confused and John is worrying about her. She lives in a sheltered flat but he tries to pop in at least three times a week and takes her shopping.

John's budget is £71. He spends it as follows. £15 per week on electricity. His flat is all electric, the window frames are draughty and he has storage heaters. There are rumours that the council are going to replace them and he hopes so but doubts it. He spends £8 on his council tax and he now had to spend £14 ( updated figure) on his spare room. He tries to put £10 petrol in the car but doesnt always manage it. When he doesnt he has to catch the bus. To go and sign on costs him £4.60. To go to the shops costs him £4.60. Its a five mile walk each way.He sometimes walks and occasionally gets a lift. He would like to do both things at the same time but he doesnt get his benefit until after he signs on. His phone costs him £5 per week his TV licence £3 per week. He gets his internet through his mobile phone tethering thing so as he doesnt have to have a landline. He has a washing machine so he doesnt need to go to the laundrette.

So lets see £71 per week income.

£55 expenses per week if he puts petrol in the car. That leaves him with £16 for food clothes and to save for tax and MOT his car.

Do you think he is poor yet?

So, John has survived for over six months on the income the State provides for him. He has a roof over his head; heating, food, does not need to provide for his children, can afford some bus fares, (I've got a bike and two perfectly good legs.) My father walked 700 miles to find employment, not a five mile dawdle. He owns a car; television, 'phone and washing machine and can afford occasionally to purchase petrol. And you think all this constitutes poverty? Nope, in comparison to times gone by and folks in the Third World, he's doing all right and there's always work if he's prepared to travel. I sure as heck would. Anything rather than be a burden to the State.

[equusdriving]

Here is the leaked document equus is referring to. http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee08022eec_u9m6vd74f.pdf#page=8&zoom=auto,121,0

and your point is what exactly? please tell us then, using actual known facts not hopes and maybes ,how will Johny be better off after Independence ?

[M Swanson]

where are the £9 a hour labourer jobs?
good money for unskilled work id be happy with that

There must be work for unskilled labourers Jock, because Blair and Co., imported hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to fill the numerous vacancies. More will be arriving shortly from Bulgaria and Romania, courtesy of Cameron to take what's left. I mean, they are all coming here to work, aren't they? Shame about those who I suspect are like yourself and would love to earn their own living.

[squidge]

So, John has survived for over six months on the income the State provides for him. He has a roof over his head; heating, food, does not need to provide for his children, can afford some bus fares, (I've got a bike and two perfectly good legs.) My father walked 700 miles to find employment, not a five mile dawdle. He owns a car; television, 'phone and washing machine and can afford occasionally to purchase petrol. And you think all this constitutes poverty? Nope, in comparison to times gone by and folks in the Third World, he's doing all right and there's always work if he's prepared to travel. I sure as heck would. Anything rather than be a burden to the State.

What about in comparison to today though M Swanson.

He had a bike but it was stolen.

Lets fast forwad a Month. John's MOT has run out so he has no car. He. Hoped to sell it but withput an MOT it wasnt worth anything much. A pal of his took it to check out what was wrong with it and it neededa steering rack so he had no choice but to scrap it. He got sixty quid so he bought smart trousers and shoes as his shoes had holes in and he had an interview with a company this week and his dauhters parent's evening. That cost him £30 from Primark. He put the rest in the electricity meter and used the bit of extra he had for a couple of weeks to get new socks and a bit of extra groceries. He bought a big box of washing powder. He went to the pub too and had three pints. It was the first time he went to the pub in four months.

He went to the council and asked for a one bedroomed property and he went on the waiting list.

He is required to attend the jobcentre once a week for his jobsearch and go online to search for work so he needs to keep the phone. So now his weekly budget is £71 His expenses without petrol are £45 but his busfare costs him £9.60 a week. He walks back and forward to town as often as he can but as he takes his mum to the shops and she cant walk he still gets the bus. he tries to do his shopping at the same time tho.

His washing machine broke and he has posted on freecycle but no luck. His laundry costs are £7 per week he tried hand washing stuff but they took so long to dry that they smelled all musty and his flat suffered with condensation which isnt good cos it makes that black mould and he knows that isnt goid for his asthma. If he had known it woulx break he wouldnt have spent £7 on that powder or gone to the pub. He has his daughters this weekend and he is really looking forward to it.

So income £71 expenditure £59.60

£11.40 left. His interview was seventeen miles away and cost £9.40. Hmmm interview or eat?

Oh or maybe he could get a loan from that shop?

He has to feed his kids after all. Poor enough yet?

[equusdriving]

What about in comparison to today though M Swanson.

He had a bike but it was stolen.

Lets fast forwad a Month. John's MOT has run out so he has no car. He. Hoped to sell it but withput an MOT it wasnt worth anything much. A pal of his took it to check out what was wrong with it and it neededa steering rack so he had no choice but to scrap it. He got sixty quid so he bought smart trousers and shoes as his shoes had holes in and he had an interview with a company this week and his dauhters parent's evening. That cost him £30 from Primark. He put the rest in the electricity meter and used the bit of extra he had for a couple of weeks to get new socks and a bit of extra groceries. He bought a big box of washing powder. He went to the pub too and had three pints. It was the first time he went to the pub in four months.

He went to the council and asked for a one bedroomed property and he went on the waiting list.

He is required to attend the jobcentre once a week for his jobsearch and go online to search for work so he needs to keep the phone. So now his weekly budget is £71 His expenses without petrol are £45 but his busfare costs him £9.60 a week. He walks back and forward to town as often as he can but as he takes his mum to the shops and she cant walk he still gets the bus. he tries to do his shopping at the same time tho.

His washing machine broke and he has posted on freecycle but no luck. His laundry costs are £7 per week he tried hand washing stuff but they took so long to dry that they smelled all musty and his flat suffered with condensation which isnt good cos it makes that black mould and he knows that isnt goid for his asthma. If he had known it woulx break he wouldnt have spent £7 on that powder or gone to the pub. He has his daughters this weekend and he is really looking forward to it.

So income £71 expenditure £59.60

£11.40 left. His interview was seventeen miles away and cost £9.40. Hmmm interview or eat?

Oh or maybe he could get a loan from that shop?

He has to feed his kids after all. Poor enough yet?

and your point is what exactly? please tell us then, using actual known facts not hopes and maybes ,how will Johny be better off after Independence ?

[squidge]

The point is that anyone can survive on £53, £33 or £3 for a week if they have to but surviving on that for weeksbor months is different. My point is that Poverty is REAL in 2013.

There is an assumption that benefits are generous. The media pushes the myth that welfare recipients are the lowest of the low, the worst of humanity. Yesterdays Daily Mail Front Page illustrated that drive to demonise those in receipt of benefits better than Anything.

Poverty today is REAL. It may not be third world poverty, it isnt the same poverty as in 1914. But it is real nevertheless. When we have people who have to choose between food and heat, we have poverty. M Swanson says that she survives very well on £50 per week but what does she do if her washer breaks, if her bike is stolen, if she cant afford to trip to the shops. You dont become poor on the first day you claim benefit it is a gradual slide.

If you want to talk about welfare and independence then start another thread, I am not going to take every thread into a tit for tat with you. This one particularly is too important.

[neilsermk1]

What is the meaning of poverty? True or otherwise.
Phill stop it thats just mischief making

[equusdriving]

If you want to talk about welfare and independence then start another thread, I am not going to take every thread into a tit for tat with you. This one particularly is too important.
new thread now started awaiting your post, and i realize you don't like tit for tat because that would need accountable answers, not just unfounded statements

[M Swanson]

The point is that anyone can survive on £53, £33 or £3 for a week if they have to but surviving on that for weeksbor months is different. My point is that Poverty is REAL in 2013.

There is an assumption that benefits are generous. The media pushes the myth that welfare recipients are the lowest of the low, the worst of humanity. Yesterdays Daily Mail Front Page illustrated that drive to demonise those in receipt of benefits better than Anything.

Poverty today is REAL. It may not be third world poverty, it isnt the same poverty as in 1914. But it is real nevertheless. When we have people who have to choose between food and heat, we have poverty. M Swanson says that she survives very well on £50 per week but what does she do if her washer breaks, if her bike is stolen, if she cant afford to trip to the shops. You dont become poor on the first day you claim benefit it is a gradual slide.

If you want to talk about welfare and independence then start another thread, I am not going to take every thread into a tit for tat with you. This one particularly is too important.

LOL. "Months," surviving on £50 a week, Squidge? It's been a few years for me and I'm still rising to the challenge and being grateful for what I receive. "Poverty," may be "REAL" in your mind, but I come under its' leftwing umbrella and trust me, I'm doing fine, thank you. I know it gets in the way of your argument, but I live on a low income and prove that I'm far from being poor. It's this positive attitude that keeps all my wheels turning and life worth living.

Benefits were originally intended to help folks over a difficult time. Not, as for so many these days, be a life choice. I've never had to choose between food and heat, but then I've cut my cloth according to my needs. There are many ways to keep warm, which doesn't cost a bean. I wear adequate clothing and treasure my Snuggle. :lol: I do, however, know a few gripers who wheel out this sad state of affairs, whilst puffing on a ciggie, or enjoying a pint at the local. If John's washing machine has broken, he can always visit the local shop, or warehouse, where folks on a low income can find many decent pieces of furniture, or white goods, for nowt. I know somebody who was recently allocated a Council flat, which she equipped for nothing. The only thing she couldn't get, was a cooker, but she went on the waiting list and was given a microwave temporarily. BTW. Although she has a trade, she hasn't worked for over nine years and she's still around for me to tell her tale. John needs to explore more possibilities. He may even be able to get another bike from the same organisation. Or, he could buy one, as I did six years ago, for £6, from the Car Boot.

Nope! For somebody who doesn't need to contribute anything to the pot, he's doing all right. Mind you, I dread to think what his plight will be, in your next installment. Meanwhile, I'll continue to be positive and grateful for what I receive. Oh! And I'll keep on looking for even more ways to improve my lifestyle, through work.

[equusdriving]

LOL. "Months," surviving on £50 a week, Squidge? It's been a few years for me and I'm still rising to the challenge and being grateful for what I receive. "Poverty," may be "REAL" in your mind, but I come under its' leftwing umbrella and trust me, I'm doing fine, thank you. I know it gets in the way of your argument, but I live on a low income and prove that I'm far from being poor. It's this positive attitude that keeps all my wheels turning and life worth living.

Benefits were originally intended to help folks over a difficult time. Not, as for so many these days, be a life choice. I've never had to choose between food and heat, but then I've cut my cloth according to my needs. There are many ways to keep warm, which doesn't cost a bean. I wear adequate clothing and treasure my Snuggle. :lol: I do, however, know a few gripers who wheel out this sad state of affairs, whilst puffing on a ciggie, or enjoying a pint at the local. If John's washing machine has broken, he can always visit the local shop, or warehouse, where folks on a low income can find many decent pieces of furniture, or white goods, for nowt. I know somebody who was recently allocated a Council flat, which she equipped for nothing. The only thing she couldn't get, was a cooker, but she went on the waiting list and was given a microwave temporarily. BTW. Although she has a trade, she hasn't worked for over nine years and she's still around for me to tell her tale. John needs to explore more possibilities. He may even be able to get another bike from the same organisation. Or, he could buy one, as I did six years ago, for £6, from the Car Boot.

Nope! For somebody who doesn't need to contribute anything to the pot, he's doing all right. Mind you, I dread to think what his plight will be, in your next installment. Meanwhile, I'll continue to be positive and grateful for what I receive. Oh! And I'll keep on looking for even more ways to improve my lifestyle, through work.

what a breath of fresh air to hear some home truths "straight from the horses mouth" instead of do-gooders versions of things

[Phill]

It's for you and each of us to decide on the definition that best fits our understanding of the word. No qualifications are necessary.Therein lies the problem. It is largely subjective, yet those who seem 'qualified' too, use skewed figures based on people living beyond their means and then reverse this standard of living and apply it across the board. This results in the media screaming that 25% of us live in poverty and are 'vulnerable'.


I've known hard times, but have never been in what I consider to be poverty........I know how far we've all come.Quite. We are far from poverty, we have to watch every penny but we are warm, dry and fed. However we are to understand we are in poverty and have been for quite some time, according others profesional opinion.



I didn't accuse the Beeb of leftwing biasNo, I did. But that is a different thread. :D

[Phill]

There must be work for unskilled labourers Jock, because Blair and Co., imported hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to fill the numerous vacancies. More will be arriving shortly from Bulgaria and Romania, courtesy of Cameron to take what's left. I mean, they are all coming here to work, aren't they? Shame about those who I suspect are like yourself and would love to earn their own living.Blair did that did he?? And Cameron is personally opening the doors? Why this fear again of certain nations?

My wife has been in hospital again recently, the ward was staffed reasonably well. The nursing staff all appeared to be 'born & bred UK nationals' bar one who was from the Philippines I think, however the cleaning, catering and general staff were nearly all immigrants of one form or another. All were very good, courteous and attentive.
Now I don't believe that they are being 'imported' by the politicos but it does make me think that something is out of balance.

[Phill]

This John chap seems to be living in an odd, misfortunate way. (think I've just made up a new word there)

I too would like this £9 per hour labouring job. The Decent Home Standard passed his council flat by did it, and he got ripped on his scrap car.

I remember the first time I was out of work and signed on, I got £17 odd per week. I had no car. After a while I got some agency work here and there, declared it too like the good boy I am. Lost the £17 but still had to go and sign on, admittedly the agency work payed better but was very random at first.
The first agency job finished at 2am and miles from home so walking it was. The next agency job was in the city centre, couldn't afford the buzz both ways so got the buzz in and walked the 7 miles home.
But, it felt good to be earning a wage.

[Phill]

Phill stop it thats just mischief makingNot at all! ;)

[M Swanson]

what a breath of fresh air to hear some home truths "straight from the horses mouth" instead of do-gooders versions of things

And here are some more home-truths from a teacher and supporter of IDS's claim, that it is possible to live on £53 a week. A woman after my own heart. Mind you, she's even more expert in surviving than I am. I've never managed a freebie holiday to France ............. yet! Have a gander at this article Squidge and show it to Johnny. :cool:

Iain Duncan Smith's claims anybody could live on £53 a week backed by Bruton teacher Kath Kelly | This is Somerset (http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Somerset-woman-lived-1-day-year/story-18596637-detail/story.html#axzz2PWAb9LG6)

[M Swanson]

Therein lies the problem. It is largely subjective, yet those who seem 'qualified' too, use skewed figures based on people living beyond their means and then reverse this standard of living and apply it across the board. This results in the media screaming that 25% of us live in poverty and are 'vulnerable'.

Quite. We are far from poverty, we have to watch every penny but we are warm, dry and fed. However we are to understand we are in poverty and have been for quite some time, according others profesional opinion.


No, I did. But that is a different thread. :D

A good, fair post, thanks Phill. And it's great to read that someone else is proud to survive on a low income. :cool:

I know it's another thread, but I restricted my "The Beeb and its lack of leftwing bias," to the first of six episodes of 'The Village.' I'm not so confident about the other five. :D

[Phill]

Curiously, it's not necessarily a low income that defines poverty.

[orkneycadian]

He owns a car which needs tax and MOT in the next month. Its a nice car, only seven years old and fairly economical to run as it is a diesel. He hasnt been able to put much in the way of petrol in it lately ...And he wonders why he can't get a job on a building site?Have you ever tried bleeding the injector pump on a cement mixer after some divot has put petrol in it?

[equusdriving]

And he wonders why he can't get a job on a building site?Have you ever tried bleeding the injector pump on a cement mixer after some divot has put petrol in it?
:lol::lol::lol:

[Flynn]

Did any of you manage to watch the first episode of the 'Village?' It was set in 1914 and showed us firsthand the true meaning of the word, 'poverty.' It was a time of no health service; rents and food paid by the taxpayers and an obligation to do a day's work to earn your keep. Not finding work locally was not an excuse and folks were expected to travel in search of providing their own livelihood. They were grim times, but the people were so different and equal to most that life threw at them. Compared to those times, none of us know we're living. Theirs was 'poverty,' writ large.

It will be interesting to see if the Beeb continue throughout the 20th Century with no attempt to introduce their usual leftwing political bias. I wouldn't bet a tanner on it. I've hear it mentioned, that it's all a cynical exercise, deliberately timed to coincide with the government's initiatives to bring the Welfare System under control. We shall see. Meanwhile, I'm sticking with the programme.

The Village is quite glossy compared to the reality of those times for the people at the bottom. I suggest you read The People Of The Abyss by Jack London.

[M Swanson]

Right. Thanks for the recommendation, Flynn. I'll visit the library and see if I can order a copy. :cool:

Yes, I did realise the programme didn't accurately reflect how dire things were for many folks during that time, but I still thought it worth viewing. I hope you enjoyed it.

[M Swanson]

And he wonders why he can't get a job on a building site?Have you ever tried bleeding the injector pump on a cement mixer after some divot has put petrol in it?

LOL. Yes, I did pick up on that error too, Orkney. I didn't mention it, because this "divot," once put diesel in my petrol engine. Ugh! Cost me a few bob and I never made the same mistake again. I'm safer and richer sticking to my bike, these days! :lol:

[Flynn]

Here. The People Of The Abyss (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1406814938/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365148012&sr=1-1&keywords=The+people+of+the+abyss&condition=used).

[M Swanson]

Thanks Flynn, but my budget won't stretch to it. I should strike lucky at the library, though. Times is 'ard! :)

[Flynn]

The Kindle reader for PCs (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000423913) is free to download and install, the Kindle app for phones, tablets etc. is free, and the Kindle ebook is free.

[M Swanson]

Brilliant. Thanks again Flynn. I'll ask my son to set it up for me this evening. Nice one!

[Phill]

I wish I could afford to get confused between petrol & diesel.

[ducati]

Has he got leprosy yet?

[rob murray]

I was a bit disappointed by the village as I was really looking forward to it, not much of a start in terms of the story line may get better. Dont see why BBC can be accused of screening it to reinforce what real poverty was : Yes times were hard, very hard for working people, as they have been for centuries, but dont look back, look forward.... its called progress dont turn the clock back eh !

[rob murray]

No, it is not up to me to define true poverty, I am not professionally qualified to do so, however, I would like to know what peoples opinions are. After all it is relative.
No.
I quite agree, I believe my family and I have been in poverty for quite some time. As for watching lefty bias TV crap, no thank you. I, like most, have family that lived through that era and I understand the realities.

What is the make up of this magical £53, and how would this compare to 1914 costs of living?

Well one things for sure, if you were destitute through lack of work in 1914, the only remedies open were to be supported by family and friends and if they couldnt support people then two choices 1 Steal 2 Go to the work house. 3 If fit enough join the services.... oh I forgot you could always go to war...

[rob murray]

How about £53 per week M Swanson?
In 1918 the working week was 52 hours and the average weekly wage was 1 pound 10 shillings and 6 pence. 53 pounds in 1914 / 18 was worth approx one pound : so in like for like terms 53 pounds was way below the basic wage in 14 / 18.

[John Little]

Rob - National Insurances Acts of 1911. If you had contributed to the scheme then you got payments for 6 months to tide you over. Similarly, for restricted trades and only 2.5 million workers you got Health Insurance.

But for self - employed like farmers, totally correct - NI was not made compulsory for all until 1921.

[rob murray]

Rob - National Insurances Acts of 1911. If you had contributed to the scheme then you got payments for 6 months to tide you over. Similarly, for restricted trades and only 2.5 million workers you got Health Insurance.

But for self - employed like farmers, totally correct - NI was not made compulsory for all until 1921.

Yep but when the six months is done ( ie the insurance payments / dole).....what then, live of the parish ....the work house ( usually )

[John Little]

Yep but when the six months is done ( ie the insurance payments / dole).....what then, live of the parish ....the work house ( usually )

If I recall, (though I'd have to check) I think you then went on half-relief for a further six months. Then the workhouse and dole.

So there was a safety net but its mesh was rather large.

I have to say though in all justice that our forebears were not daft. A large number of them actually did scrape enough to pay into beneficial societies and insurance companies to buy their own health insurance and unemployment payments. To avoid opposition from some of these organisations Lloyd George allowed them to administer the National Insurance scheme for their members when the scheme first started. I cannot remember the percentage of the working class this involved off the top of my head but it was surprisingly large - as high as circa 40% I think.

[Jockaholic]

So would he if he could get it. That was his last job and it paid well but it only lasted for three months.but your just making it up
his 50 quid has just turned into£70 overnite

were not living in ww1 england were living in the here and now but some of you are in cuckoo land

[squidge]

And he wonders why he can't get a job on a building site?Have you ever tried bleeding the injector pump on a cement mixer after some divot has put petrol in it?Nah Orkneycadian thats just me. I always say I have to put petrol in the car and I have driven diesel cars for the last 25 years lol. I have however NEVER actually put petrol in.

[Phill]

Well one things for sure, if you were destitute through lack of work in 1914, the only remedies open were to be supported by family and friends and if they couldnt support people then two choices 1 Steal 2 Go to the work house. 3 If fit enough join the services.... oh I forgot you could always go to war...Aahhh, destitute! Now there is quite a good benchmark, quite definitive in its own right. How far from destitute is poverty and is it safe to assume the welfare system was designed to protect us from destitution? Rather than ensure we had an X box & Sky movies??

[orkneycadian]

He has to feed his kids after all. Poor enough yet?

Been no word of this bloke doing much self help yet. Has he been to the local police station yet to see if there are any uncliamed lost push bikes he could have? Sometimes, they sell off the unclaimed ones to get of them in return for a nominal donation to charity. £20 or less on a push bike and he would soon save on his bus fares, and get to see his Mam more than 3 times a week. £1.50 each would buy him some rabbit snares - Less if he managed to find any in any second hand sales. Anyway, even if he only bought 1 (which is less than 1/4 of what he spent on beer), he could go and have a go at getting some free meat, as well as getting him out of the house. Get his cheap push bike out into the country and help the farmers with the rabbit problem. Good cheap tasty food for his bairns, and he can always take some round to his mum. When he is round there, he can ask the warden at the sheltered housing scheme if he can help with the garden, as he has noticed its become a bit overgrown, and the old folk arent fit to do anything with it anymore. The warden doesn't either as she is up to her ears in paperwork and red tape. Turn over the garden and put some tatties and vegetables in it, and before long, he, the bairns, his mum and the other oldies in the scheme are getting home grown accompaniements to their casseroles. By this time though, John has also invested in some fishing hooks and line (using the money he is not spending on bus fares) and has become expert at wheeching fish out of the Wick river from in between the shopping trollies. He has also been to the local poundshop and bought a roll of masking tape, which he has used to seal up the draughts from his windows in the wintertime, slashing his hydro bill and making the place more comfortable for the bairns when they come round.
As he has the luxury of internet, he reads up on how to change the steering rack on his car, and manages to get it back from the scrappy before it went into the crusher, and he got it back for the same money the scrappy gave him yesterday. Quite right too, as scrapping a nice, 7 year old car is extremely wasteful and John wonders what the heck he was thinking of. Being a common model of car, the scrappy helpfully suggests there is a similar one at the other side of the yard that got written off in an accident, but the steering rack on that should be good. He offers the steering rack to John for £10, but he will have to take it off himself. £10 is a lot to John at the moment, but he reckons if he can get his car going and MOT'd, he can sell it for more than £1000 (it is after all tidy, a diesel and a mere 7 years old), payback his mate he borrowed the money for the tax and the MOT and still be over £700 up which will come in very handy.
Turning his attention to the washing machine, he found that all that was wrong was that the drive belt was broken. He googled "How to fix a broken washing machine belt" after his repeated postings on e org asking "Does anyone know how to fix a washing machine belt?" and "Do Tesco sell washing machine belts and when are they open?" yielded nothing. He discovered he could buy a new belt for under £10 out of the £700 he was up on the car sale, and in 20 minutes, his washing machine was birling away again. However, over the last few weeks, he had been taking his washing round to his mums and doing hers and his at the same time in her washing machine to save on power and powder, as she was getting to the stage where she couldn't remember whether to put washing powder or cat food in the dispenser drawer. His Mum suggested that he could sell his machine, and since he was round at hers 3 times a week, (or more now he has the push bike), they may as well rationalise on washing machines. And he could always have hers when she popped her clogs. It didnt sell for much, but he got £40 for it now that he could advertise it as working. In not a lot of time, John had some money in the bank, had a pushbike again, a warmer house, could Google to save his life and was able to teach his lasses how to be a bit less dependant on the welfare system and Tesco for your dinner. Far from out of the woods, but a lot better than sitting around moping about it. Is he now poor? Nah, don't think so.

[M Swanson]

A brilliant post and one that could teach John and others, how to make the most of the situation and enjoy the challenges as well. Repped.

Tomorrow morning, I'll be up with the larks and working at a greengrocer's shop. My family used to run such a business and I shall be spending two hours preparing the produce for display. In return, I'll be paid in goods. Last week I earned all my weekly veg and fruit; 1/2 doz eggs, a jar of beetroot, tin of peas and a bag of roasted peanuts and was home by 9 o'clock. All very satisfying. I can't abide dirty windows, so in return for looking after the cleaners young son for a few hours, I have my panes washed every three weeks and he'll emulsion my ceilings when I need them done. Incidentally, I buy all my paint from Car Boot for a couple of quid each tin. I have many little schemes like this, but I won't bore you with more.

It all goes to show, that with a little work, thought and will, it is more than possible to survive on a low income. I do get the feeling that John is not doing enough to help himself. Possibly, as he's been in receipt of benefits for six months, he's become dependent on others to provide him with a living. There is labouring work out there, although it doesn't help that Britain has advertised 250,000 jobs for EU citizens, as well as our own, to apply for. Of course, France has got away cheap with 17,000, but that's another thread. ;) Of course it's possible to survive on £50 a week and John and I are the living proof.

[squidge]

You lot are so funny. And Im not being sarcastic. This thread has made me laugh, it illustrates EXACTLY, what I am saying to you.

That poverty and the slide into poverty rests on the smallest things. Not least how resilient you are, your mental health, John maybe depressed or ill. Not simply from unemployment but from the stress of his marriage break up or his mothers health. Where you live, you might snare nice fat juicy rabbits down the road in Caithness, but living in an estate near Manchester you might struggle. You MIGHT be able to fix a steering rack but you may not have tools knowledge or ability, you might have family and friends to help you out but you might not, you might be caring for someone but you might not. If the belt goes on your washer you might heave a huge sigh of relief but if it crackles and smokes it may be beyond fixing.

Life is full of these small set backs which if you are struggling but managing can catapult you into desperation and you may not be able to pull yourself out. John had managed quite well until he had to pay £14 for his extra bedroom. People are living on a knife edge and living on £50 per week after everything is paid is different than living on £70 a week when you still have to pay stuff which means you are left with £10 or less. You leave things unpaid, like tv licences, or car insurance or bedroom tax. But then what, you end in a worse mess and it becomes harder to dig yourself out.

Poverty exists, whether you or I think that it is someones own fault because they cant pull themselves together or cant see a way out for themselves and so they are weak and pretty useless is immaterial.

This is not a suggestion that John should get more money, but a change in how we help people like John. Currently we laugh at them, call them scrounging lazy articles, spit on them as they come out the jobcentre and put all our efforts to stopping their benefit. How much better would John have been, had a concerted effort been made to help him get back to work when it was clear that he was struggling to find it himself? How much better if he had been able to access support like that which is here, pointing him in different directions, giving him ideas, support and advice? Poor John, living near Manchester, may never have heard of Caithness, never mind Caithness.org.

But no, we dont do that. Society points at people like John and laughs. Instead of saying can I help you? We say you are a waster, not worth our help.People should help themselves, but you know there are times in everyone's life when that might just be too hard, we might be too battered, we might be too lost. Unemployment is often one of those times. And yet we target these people and tell them they are the worst of the worst, equating them with murderers like Philpott and tarring them all with the same brush. How much better would John have been with support and direction?

That is what needs to change, attitudes and approaches. John doesnt need more money, he needs more help and advice and support and a job. Help Like he might have had from M Swanson if she was his mum or orkneycadian if they were his friend but we arent all that lucky and so many people end up struggling and with no money for food, or heating or their bills. They End up in poverty in fact.

[Phill]

It all goes to show, that with a little work, thought and will, it is more than possible to survive on a low income. I do get the feeling that John is not doing enough to help himself.The assumption is that John isn't doing much to help himself, the reality may be quite different. But as pointed out already, our John is a work of fiction.Many people do survive on a low income and get on with it, a fact of life for most.

[squidge]

The assumption is that John isn't doing much to help himself, the reality may be quite different. But as pointed out already, our John is a work of fiction.Many people do survive on a low income and get on with it, a fact of life for most.And many people dont and thats a fact of life too. And when you add in other risk factors, like caring responsibilities or mental health issues, dusability or long term unemployment, lone parenthood, poor housing, addiction problems, leaving care, homelessness, then it becomes much more difficult for people to "get on with it" or help themselves, particularly in the current climate.

[orkneycadian]

John doesnt need more money, he needs more help and advice and support and a job.

I think we would be naive to think for a moment that the only reason John needs or wants a job is for any reason other than money. I am sure he gets some satisfaction from working too, but at the end of the day, its down to the cash he gets that incentives him to get out of bed in the morning and go and put in a days work.

In his current situation, for John, the "Bedroom tax" may indeed be a financial cost he could well do without. But he's not a stupid chap (except when it came to fuelling the car he used to have, and now that it turns out he lives in Manchester, didn't really need anyway....) and he has a think about how he can make use of the bedroom to make it more worthwhile. Previously, its been a bit of junk drop room, where his daughters sleep when they stay over every other weekend. For the other 12 days in the fortnight, it does nothing. John has the Internet, so instead of wasting away his life and brain cells on Facebook, he reads up on household economics and learns he can buy a half-hundredweight of tatties (when he has eaten all the ones he has grown at the sheltered housing scheme garden) for not much more than Tesco's sell a little plastic bag of them for. The spare bedroom becomes the place where he stores them, under a few empty tattie sacks to keep them dark. The kids only come round every other weekend anyway, so he can get away with turning off the heating in that room most of the time, further saving on his hydro bill. In a short space of time, John realises that what he is saving in being wise about his food shopping, is actually going towards paying for that room and making it work for him. The kids don't mind there being a sack of tatties in the corner of the room.

Far from being called a waster, John would find he earns a lot of respect if he didnt blow his benefits at the bookies, the pub and the tobacconist (as if there are any of those left these days....). Maybe even the building contractor, coming to visit his Dad at the sheltered housing scheme is impressed with what he has heard about John, doing the garden and dropping off a few vegetables to the residents when there are more than he can deal with, and offers that hard working guy a job on a site he has locally. Not so likely to happen if John is still in bed watching Jeremy Kyle.

In the days of The Village's first episode, a welfare system had not long started, in the form of an old age pension scheme. Back in those days, aside from the fact there were no TV's, hanging round the house all day watching daytime TV was simply not an option if you wanted to live. Nowadays, it is. If people are given options like that, there should be little surprise when those options are taken up.

[squidge]

Sorry Orkneycadian I should have said he doesnt need more benefit, rather than money.

[equusdriving]

Been no word of this bloke doing much self help yet. Has he been to the local police station yet to see if there are any uncliamed lost push bikes he could have? Sometimes, they sell off the unclaimed ones to get of them in return for a nominal donation to charity. £20 or less on a push bike and he would soon save on his bus fares, and get to see his Mam more than 3 times a week. £1.50 each would buy him some rabbit snares - Less if he managed to find any in any second hand sales. Anyway, even if he only bought 1 (which is less than 1/4 of what he spent on beer), he could go and have a go at getting some free meat, as well as getting him out of the house. Get his cheap push bike out into the country and help the farmers with the rabbit problem. Good cheap tasty food for his bairns, and he can always take some round to his mum. When he is round there, he can ask the warden at the sheltered housing scheme if he can help with the garden, as he has noticed its become a bit overgrown, and the old folk arent fit to do anything with it anymore. The warden doesn't either as she is up to her ears in paperwork and red tape. Turn over the garden and put some tatties and vegetables in it, and before long, he, the bairns, his mum and the other oldies in the scheme are getting home grown accompaniements to their casseroles. By this time though, John has also invested in some fishing hooks and line (using the money he is not spending on bus fares) and has become expert at wheeching fish out of the Wick river from in between the shopping trollies. He has also been to the local poundshop and bought a roll of masking tape, which he has used to seal up the draughts from his windows in the wintertime, slashing his hydro bill and making the place more comfortable for the bairns when they come round.
As he has the luxury of internet, he reads up on how to change the steering rack on his car, and manages to get it back from the scrappy before it went into the crusher, and he got it back for the same money the scrappy gave him yesterday. Quite right too, as scrapping a nice, 7 year old car is extremely wasteful and John wonders what the heck he was thinking of. Being a common model of car, the scrappy helpfully suggests there is a similar one at the other side of the yard that got written off in an accident, but the steering rack on that should be good. He offers the steering rack to John for £10, but he will have to take it off himself. £10 is a lot to John at the moment, but he reckons if he can get his car going and MOT'd, he can sell it for more than £1000 (it is after all tidy, a diesel and a mere 7 years old), payback his mate he borrowed the money for the tax and the MOT and still be over £700 up which will come in very handy.
Turning his attention to the washing machine, he found that all that was wrong was that the drive belt was broken. He googled "How to fix a broken washing machine belt" after his repeated postings on e org asking "Does anyone know how to fix a washing machine belt?" and "Do Tesco sell washing machine belts and when are they open?" yielded nothing. He discovered he could buy a new belt for under £10 out of the £700 he was up on the car sale, and in 20 minutes, his washing machine was birling away again. However, over the last few weeks, he had been taking his washing round to his mums and doing hers and his at the same time in her washing machine to save on power and powder, as she was getting to the stage where she couldn't remember whether to put washing powder or cat food in the dispenser drawer. His Mum suggested that he could sell his machine, and since he was round at hers 3 times a week, (or more now he has the push bike), they may as well rationalise on washing machines. And he could always have hers when she popped her clogs. It didnt sell for much, but he got £40 for it now that he could advertise it as working. In not a lot of time, John had some money in the bank, had a pushbike again, a warmer house, could Google to save his life and was able to teach his lasses how to be a bit less dependant on the welfare system and Tesco for your dinner. Far from out of the woods, but a lot better than sitting around moping about it. Is he now poor? Nah, don't think so.

Now you are just being silly,its much easier to sit around moping, whinging and blaming people :D

[equusdriving]

A brilliant post and one that could teach John and others, how to make the most of the situation and enjoy the challenges as well. Repped.

Tomorrow morning, I'll be up with the larks and working at a greengrocer's shop. My family used to run such a business and I shall be spending two hours preparing the produce for display. In return, I'll be paid in goods. Last week I earned all my weekly veg and fruit; 1/2 doz eggs, a jar of beetroot, tin of peas and a bag of roasted peanuts and was home by 9 o'clock. All very satisfying. I can't abide dirty windows, so in return for looking after the cleaners young son for a few hours, I have my panes washed every three weeks and he'll emulsion my ceilings when I need them done. Incidentally, I buy all my paint from Car Boot for a couple of quid each tin. I have many little schemes like this, but I won't bore you with more.

It all goes to show, that with a little work, thought and will, it is more than possible to survive on a low income. I do get the feeling that John is not doing enough to help himself. Possibly, as he's been in receipt of benefits for six months, he's become dependent on others to provide him with a living. There is labouring work out there, although it doesn't help that Britain has advertised 250,000 jobs for EU citizens, as well as our own, to apply for. Of course, France has got away cheap with 17,000, but that's another thread. ;) Of course it's possible to survive on £50 a week and John and I are the living proof.

yes well said

[equusdriving]

Currently we laugh at them, call them scrounging lazy articles, spit on them as they come out the jobcentre and put all our efforts to stopping their benefit.
Instead of saying can I help you? We say you are a waster, not worth our help.

well you ought to be ashamed of yourself and need to look at yourself before blaming others![lol]