View Full Version : YES or NO
piratelassie
28-Mar-13, 23:32
Whether you are voting yes or no in 2014 there is one question you should be asking yourself. If Scotland is such a "weak nation" like Westminster keep trying to tell us, why are they so desperate for us to stay in the union? Thought's welcome. Please do'nt try and say it's because they are looking after us.
ywindythesecond
28-Mar-13, 23:36
Whether you are voting yes or no in 2014 there is one question you should be asking yourself. If Scotland is such a "weak nation" like Westminster keep trying to tell us, why are they so desperate for us to stay in the union? Thought's welcome. Please do'nt try and say it's because they are looking after us.
How is Westminster trying to tell us we are a "weak nation"? I can certainly see that it is telling us about the weaknesses in the argument for independence, but that is not the same thing.
Vote Yes and we will end up like Cyprus and Iceland!!!
justlikethat!
29-Mar-13, 00:05
Whether you are voting yes or no in 2014 there is one question you should be asking yourself. If Scotland is such a "weak nation" like Westminster keep trying to tell us, why are they so desperate for us to stay in the union? Thought's welcome. Please do'nt try and say it's because they are looking after us.
No the 1 and only question everyone should be asking themselves is Will we be better off in Britain or Independent, not the blinkered anti British RUBBISH you continuously spout.
No the 1 and only question everyone should be asking themselves is Will we be better off in Britain or Independent, not the blinkered anti British RUBBISH you continuously spout.
Why does everything have to boil down to the desire to have as much money as possible, it is this mantra that got us into the current financial mess in the first place....
What you should be asking is....
Will we be a better, fairer, more contented society in Britain or Independent?
The only monetary concern should be... Can we afford it?
We may be slightly better off or even slightly worse off, but I believe that we can afford it.
One way or another the fight will turn to the oilfields in the north sea which keeps britain afloat, if scotland can keep control of them, they will be one of the richest countrys in the world! This is why westminster wants scotland to stay part of Britain!!
I certainly hope it doesn't turn into a fight. :eek:
Countrys that resist the evil empire's quest to secure oil don't fare well.
just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.
Vote Yes and we will end up like Cyprus and Iceland!!!
So will it be hot or cold?
equusdriving
29-Mar-13, 11:27
Why does everything have to boil down to the desire to have as much money as possible, it is this mantra that got us into the current financial mess in the first place....
What you should be asking is....
Will we be a better, fairer, more contented society in Britain or Independent?
The only monetary concern should be... Can we afford it?
We may be slightly better off or even slightly worse off, but I believe that we can afford it.
Why do YOU assume that better off is JUST about money
And hold on who is it that continuously says oil oil oil we will all be rich blah blah blah!
equusdriving
29-Mar-13, 11:39
cold and bankrupt
Yes but at least we will be in charge of our own poverty ridden disaster , not them English/British ...................... eh Piratelassie! because after all that's all that matters to some people !!!
just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.
Why do you keep on equating an independent country with the SNP? In a democratic country any party who gains the majority of vote can be the government. Once the specter of independence is out of the way, the SNP may even disband. The most likely government in the long term is Labour. After independence a large part of the SNP vote will return to their natural homes of Labour, LibDem and yes even the Conservatives.
A lot of people vote SNP because they are the only major party that is not controlled by London. They see the SNP as a party that will try to do best for Scotland and not for UK and hence England. This has been proved by the last 2 Holyrood elections where they got voting percentages that no one would of dreamed of 20 years ago.
BTW I am not a SNP supporter
just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.
You dont need a rise in benefits to make life better. You need growth and jobs. To have growth and jobs you needs to focus on what is best for the Scottish economy. An Independent Scotland would have a government that would do that, prioritise The needs of our economy and work to improve investment. Who is better placed to do that than a Scottish Government? Even in the situation we are in just now the government we have is doing this to a limited degree. Limited that is, by the limited powers that they have.
The other thing that would make us better off is to immediately stop the hounding, harrassment and demonisation of those people on benefits. That would cost nothing. Make sure the emphasis is on helping supporting and encouraging people into work and they will be better off with NO rise in benefits. In fact we would ALL be better off. Changes to the system will take time but that one change, remove targets for stopping people's money and league tables, and performance objectives ( none of which the government say they have, standing ip in parliament and assuring us they dont exist, and yet leaked emails from jobcentreplus staff clearly show they do) and put in place targets for moving people into work and the benefit bill will reduce.
Getting rid of the bedroom tax, cleing the loopholes which allow tax avoidance, these things all help to reduce the divisions within society and that makes us better off. Having the tools in our own parliament to tackle the problems in society and the power to choose our own priorities and to hold our own government to account are what Independence will give us.
Its not about the colour of that Government its about the opportunity to choose it and have it do what we, the scottish electorate, charge it to do.
John Little
29-Mar-13, 14:17
And Lo!
There came among the people of that land a man sent from God who some said that he was sent to lead them to the Promised land.
But many of them thought him a false prophet so went about their work.
Whereupon he did cast breadcrumbs upon the ground in the market place.
And the people did say 'Alack - why dost thou cast forth thy bread upon the ground?'
And he did reply 'Why to keep away devils!'
And the people, sorely troubled said 'But there are no devils in this land.'
'See!' said the prophet. 'It works.'
John Little
29-Mar-13, 14:28
Then some of the people began to scatter breadcrumbs...
.
Its not about the colour of that Government its about the opportunity to choose it and have it do what we, the scottish electorate, charge it to do.
So what exactly do they want us to vote yes to? A pipe dream? Maybe take a chance card and hope for the best?
Remember there has been NO negotiations with ANYONE whatsoever so it's all assertions the lot of it. So what exactly do they want us to vote yes to? A pipe dream? Maybe take a chance card and hope for the best?
Personally there is NO benefit to me to vote yes so I will vote NO and encourage every single person I know to do the same because I am not voting for a Scotland with an SNP constitution that does not benefit anyone but them.
equusdriving
29-Mar-13, 17:04
I knew Specsavers was in Wick today, but I didn't know they were doing such a roaring trade in Rose tinted Glasses, apparently the pro-independence supporters were queuing round the block to get the bogof deal :lol:
So what exactly do they want us to vote yes to? A pipe dream? Maybe take a chance card and hope for the best?
Remember there has been NO negotiations with ANYONE whatsoever so it's all assertions the lot of it. So what exactly do they want us to vote yes to? A pipe dream? Maybe take a chance card and hope for the best?
Remember there has been NO negotiations with ANYONE whatsoever so it's all assertions the lot of it.
Personally there is NO benefit to me to vote yes so I will vote NO and encourage every single person I know to do the same because I am not voting for a Scotland with an SNP constitution that does not benefit anyone but them.
I suspect that Golach and I have something in common - that is, we are too old to get any benefits from future changes.
What I will do over the next 18 months is weigh up what is said by both sides to see what benefits (not necessarily financial) are likely to accrue to my children and grandchildren from leaving or staying in.
I will take advice from my boys because it is their future - my future is all behind me.
What I can say is that the No camp is saying to me that they cannot/will not give me any indication of what, if anything, they will deliver if the vote is No. Their "line in the sand" is continually being washed away and replaced by "wait and see".
I think the current state of affairs in the UK is not good and getting worse and I see no sign of a change of direction irrespective of the colour of the government. So I cannot at the moment perceive anything that convinces me that we will be "Better Together".
The Yes campaign are still light on what they can deliver and the mechanisms for doing so. The position of dependable oil revenues needs urgent clarification. At the moment it is a case of "my experts are better than your experts".
Golach makes great play on the absence of negotiations: the Westminster government has made it plain that they will not discuss any post referendum issues with anyone until after the vote. Similarly they refuse to ask the EEC what will be the position of an independent Scotland. The Scottish government is debarred from asking the question.
The sooner the playground name-calling is dispensed with, the sooner we can get a reasoned, grown-up, debate. We all deserve that. We will end up with what we deserve!
Partan
Partan
John Little
29-Mar-13, 17:30
I knew Specsavers was in Wick today, but I didn't know they were doing such a roaring trade in Rose tinted Glasses, apparently the pro-independence supporters were queuing round the block to get the bogof deal :lol:
That puts the finger right on it I think.
As for the idea that the Union has to justify its existence - there was one expatriate view that I read that said we do not know in Britain how lucky we are to have what we have, unless we have lived outside Britain. To break up Britain in search of something better is, in world terms, a gamble.
The devils and demons of want and deprivation and poverty are not peculiar to Scotland - but are found across the UK. They may be solved - or not- by the UK.
As to what the SNPs position is - well there's this chap called Reuben Webbe who said something on the Better Together site which struck me a lot and I'm going to take the liberty of quoting him here;
"It's a clever and cynical tactic of the SNP to position independence as the answer to all of Scotland's ills but without explaining why so they can appeal to a bunch of hopeless idealists from right across the political spectrum.
If you want an environmentally friendly fair-trade green utopia, they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
If you want a socialist utopia free from child poverty with free public services to all they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
If you want a capitalist oil state with low taxes they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
The reason they don't substantiate their claims by explaining how they're going to do it, is because if you don't explain how you'll do something you can never be proved wrong."
John Little
29-Mar-13, 17:36
I also take the liberty of placing something that Brian Wilson said in The Scotsman on here;
"On critical issues such as personal taxation, employment and pensions, those who do not want to break up Britain have a status quo to defend and continuity to invoke. Even when the facts are inconvenient, they have to live with them. The Nationalists, on the other hand, can just make it up as they go along – and that is exactly what they do."
The stuff that he says about the £500 lottery is good too. The article, imho reads well.
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/comment/brian-wilson-talk-of-second-oil-boom-is-a-bust-1-2858999
macadamia
29-Mar-13, 18:16
Facts get in the way, if they don't fit. It appears that the great British and/or Scottish public are so used to being lied to by any and every public, civic, or commercial authority that they will now elect to believe only what suits them, and then ignore the rest. The best we can hope for, unless something truly revolutionary happens, is to vote for and accept the least worst/most tolerable future on offer. And then to blame the failure on "them" afterwards, when it all goes pear. The only winners will be those who, having seen the venality of those seeking success as principal cockerel on the dungheap, reside in any case on a higher plane where such concepts as morality, ethics, beliefs, and principle still provide a more engaging platform.
just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.
But you appear to support the despicable assault on the poor and disabled that this government will inflict from Monday onwards.
It is also magic how the Better Together crowd spend so much time telling us how rubbish Scotland will be if independant and how the current Scottish Government are unable to do anything.
Not exactly littering the place with convincing arguments for biding where we are eh?
Facts get in the way, if they don't fit. It appears that the great British and/or Scottish public are so used to being lied to by any and every public, civic, or commercial authority that they will now elect to believe only what suits them, and then ignore the rest. The best we can hope for, unless something truly revolutionary happens, is to vote for and accept the least worst/most tolerable future on offer. And then to blame the failure on "them" afterwards, when it all goes pear. The only winners will be those who, having seen the venality of those seeking success as principal cockerel on the dungheap, reside in any case on a higher plane where such concepts as morality, ethics, beliefs, and principle still provide a more engaging platform.
Wow! What an ego!
Partan
Keyser_soze
29-Mar-13, 21:23
Vote Yes and we will end up like Cyprus and Iceland!!!
This ^^^ best thing Ive read & straight to the point, someone with sense at last.
Vote Yes and we will end up like Cyprus and Iceland!!!
Re Cyprus: Are you seriously suggesting that an independent Scotland would create a tax haven aimed at attracting the money of Russian oligarchs, money-laundering crooks and tax dodgers from a the airts? Its all gone belly up for Cyprus.
Re Iceland: Unemployment rate significantly lower than that of the UK; economic growth rates much better than that in the UK (OK, it does look as if we may have just missed out on a triple-dip recession but we are still bumping along on the bottom); bankers/financiers have been/are being prosecuted. Not a bad example to follow.
A bit of research would have been useful, old bean.
piratelassie
29-Mar-13, 23:04
Why do you continually equate the YES camp with the SNP, get it right. The YES camp is an all party camp.
golach;1017121]just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.[/QUOTE]
Re Cyprus: Are you seriously suggesting that an independent Scotland would create a tax haven aimed at attracting the money of Russian oligarchs, money-laundering crooks and tax dodgers from a the airts? Its all gone belly up for Cyprus.
Re Iceland: Unemployment rate significantly lower than that of the UK; economic growth rates much better than that in the UK (OK, it does look as if we may have just missed out on a triple-dip recession but we are still bumping along on the bottom); bankers/financiers have been/are being prosecuted. Not a bad example to follow.
A bit of research would have been useful, old bean.
Take a look at the banking restrictions in both Iceland and Cyprus now
Why do you continually equate the YES camp with the SNP, get it right. The YES camp is an all party camp.
.
Oh so is it all parties that want independence, well I never!!
piratelassie
29-Mar-13, 23:17
May I state again, the independence movement now, is not just the SNP, just ask DENNIS CANAVAN a stanch Labour man all his life.
I also take the liberty of placing something that Brian Wilson said in The Scotsman on here;
"On critical issues such as personal taxation, employment and pensions, those who do not want to break up Britain have a status quo to defend and continuity to invoke. Even when the facts are inconvenient, they have to live with them. The Nationalists, on the other hand, can just make it up as they go along – and that is exactly what they do."
The stuff that he says about the £500 lottery is good too. The article, imho reads well.
http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/comment/brian-wilson-talk-of-second-oil-boom-is-a-bust-1-2858999
John Little
29-Mar-13, 23:22
May I state again, the independence movement now, is not just the SNP, just ask DENNIS CANAVAN a stanch Labour man all his life.What has that to do with what I posted?
May I state again, the independence movement now, is not just the SNP, just ask DENNIS CANAVAN a stanch Labour man all his life.
Dennis Cavanan WAS a Labour mp, his is now retired and supports the SNP, another turncoat politician
equusdriving
29-Mar-13, 23:43
I can just picture her now, desperately trawling the internet to find any desperate misguided blinkered anti Britain statement, for her next post to attempt to promote Independence, rather than giving us some credible facts about how Independence would be better for us................................................ .. mind you that's easier said than done :lol:
Take a look at the banking restrictions in both Iceland and Cyprus now
And what is wrong with banking restrictions when the way the Banks are working is insupportable? Please elucidate with some cogent information that the UK Government's licking of the banks' bahookeys is the only sensible option.
Dennis Cavanan WAS a Labour mp, his is now retired and supports the SNP, another turncoat politician
I see him as an ex-politician with some previous as not being over-keen on the crap emanating from Westminster. You see it as being a turncoat against the Union....I see it as someone who has realised that the UK isn't working for Scotland...because, looking at it logically, if he thought it was, he would not always have been perceived as a a rebel.
He didn't retire from Labour...he was dunted...and he was dunted and stood as and was elected as an Independent, because he thought Scotland deserved more than the UK was prepared to allow Scotland. Throughout his entire political life, he played a leading part in the campaign for a Scottish Parliament with revenue-raising powers..but the UK Government preferred to award us pocket money and keep full control,so the "revenue raising" powers would have, if used made Scotland the highest taxed area of the UK and suited the UK Government down to the ground....as it would have killed off any notion of independence.
But we didn't get revenue rasing powers..we got tax increaing/reducing powers..which is only the same thing as revenue raising powers if you are as brain dead as our politicians eternally prove themselves to be....so Canavan has not been a turncoat...a turncoat is someone who shifts allegiance from one loyalty or ideal to another, Canavan has never done that, because he has always been in favour of, at the very least, more powers for Scotland..but eventually realised that no Union government would accept that. Just a pity he didn't have his epiphany earlier...he would have been a real asset as an SNP MSP.
And what is wrong with banking restrictions when the way the Banks are working is insupportable? Please elucidate with some cogent information that the UK Government's licking of the banks' bahookeys is the only sensible option.
Oh aye, going independent will cure all the bank problems in Scotland? Aye right!!!!
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 11:47
I can just picture her now, desperately trawling the internet to find any desperate misguided blinkered anti Britain statement, for her next post to attempt to promote Independence, rather than giving us some credible facts about how Independence would be better for us................................................ .. mind you that's easier said than done :lol:The secessionists have told us one way in way Scotland would be improved by secession...
We would become a peasant society - which is apparently what some of them aspire to!
- well there's this chap called Reuben Webbe who said something on the Better Together site which struck me a lot and I'm going to take the liberty of quoting him here;
"It's a clever and cynical tactic of the SNP to position independence as the answer to all of Scotland's ills but without explaining why so they can appeal to a bunch of hopeless idealists from right across the political spectrum.
If you want an environmentally friendly fair-trade green utopia, they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
If you want a socialist utopia free from child poverty with free public services to all they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
If you want a capitalist oil state with low taxes they'll tell you independence will deliver it.
The reason they don't substantiate their claims by explaining how they're going to do it, is because if you don't explain how you'll do something you can never be proved wrong."
Independence by itself delivers nothing and everything.
Nothing because Independence is the first step, the open door, the start. It is never and hasnt been suggested as the finishing line.
Everything because it delivers the power to change things into the hands of the Scottish Electorate. A power that we dont have now.
Independence will deliver what the Scottish Electorate want it to deliver. In truth nowhere have I seen a utopia promised or suggested. If, however, the Scottish electorate want to strive for an environmentally friendly green utopia then that might be what the focus of an Independent Scotland is ; if they want to strive for a socialist utopia free from child poverty with free public services to all then that might be it; if their choice is a capitalist oil state with low taxes then that might be it. It is however despite what "Digital and Transmedia Native and Disruptive Social Thinker and Guerilla Ideasmith" Reuben Webbe (his words not mine) suggests more likely to be a mix of all those and no certainly no utopia at all. It will be hard work and we might not get it right but without it we are condemned to leaving the power to address our problems to Westminster who are not interested in or addressing the needs of Scottish society and the wants of the Scottish electorate. Today the Herald published an article which showed Levels of poverty in Scotland are the worst they have been in 30 years with 29% of people living in poverty unable to afford heating and food and warm clothes. There is no hope in tackling this as part of the UK. On Monday many many people will face cuts which will leave them worse off - the Scottish governmnet is doing what they can with their limited powers to mitigate these things but without Independence there is nothing we can do to change them.
John Little
30-Mar-13, 12:18
I do not care what mildly eccentric expressions Mr Webbe may or may mot choose to describe himself with: but i do agree with what he says. As for the Scotsmen and women who have the thankless task of representing you in Westminster - well the UK is a democracy and you could tell them so. I seem to recollect that Scots have held positions of some merit in recent governments.
In recent UK governments with UK priorities - I am not criticising the individuals but the parties, their policies and their priorities. As for Reuben and your agreement with his musings where do you see that any political party has promised a post independence Utopia?
Humerous Vegetable
30-Mar-13, 13:28
Independence by itself delivers nothing and everything.
Nothing because Independence is the first step, the open door, the start. It is never and hasnt been suggested as the finishing line.
Everything because it delivers the power to change things into the hands of the Scottish Electorate. A power that we dont have now.
Independence will deliver what the Scottish Electorate want it to deliver. In truth nowhere have I seen a utopia promised or suggested. If, however, the Scottish electorate want to strive for an environmentally friendly green utopia then that might be what the focus of an Independent Scotland is ; if they want to strive for a socialist utopia free from child poverty with free public services to all then that might be it; if their choice is a capitalist oil state with low taxes then that might be it. It is however despite what "Digital and Transmedia Native and Disruptive Social Thinker and Guerilla Ideasmith" Reuben Webbe (his words not mine) suggests more likely to be a mix of all those and no certainly no utopia at all. It will be hard work and we might not get it right but without it we are condemned to leaving the power to address our problems to Westminster who are not interested in or addressing the needs of Scottish society and the wants of the Scottish electorate. Today the Herald published an article which showed Levels of poverty in Scotland are the worst they have been in 30 years with 29% of people living in poverty unable to afford heating and food and warm clothes. There is no hope in tackling this as part of the UK. On Monday many many people will face cuts which will leave them worse off - the Scottish governmnet is doing what they can with their limited powers to mitigate these things but without Independence there is nothing we can do to change them.
This is very well said. I have always understood that the sole purpose of the SNP, as a political party, was to deliver to the people of Scotland the right to vote for independence. What the Scottish voting public would elect as an independent nation, right, left or centre is theirs to decide if that ever happens, and they are ever free to do so as the independent country they once were. The SNP are a political necessity because no other party (apart from the Greens) is prepared to offer Scots that opportunity.
blacknwhitedynamite
30-Mar-13, 16:00
Please tell me, what has Westminster done for Scotland?
could it be the continual closing of military bases in Scotland, the placing of the abomination that is trident in Scottish waters, bringing in the bedroom tax that was heavily opposed by Scottish MP's, sending our troops to fight an illegal war abroad that was opposed by Scotland, the moving of the Scottish maritime border to try and 'steal' OUR oil.
The fact of it is, Westminster is not working for Scotland and we as a nation can do it better
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 16:02
Please tell me, what has Westminster done for Scotland?
could it be the continual closing of military bases in Scotland, the placing of the abomination that is trident in Scottish waters, bringing in the bedroom tax that was heavily opposed by Scottish MP's, sending our troops to fight an illegal war abroad that was opposed by Scotland, the moving of the Scottish maritime border to try and 'steal' OUR oil.
The fact of it is, Westminster is not working for Scotland and we as a nation can do it betterOh God, here's another one lol!
Can someone pass the Pampers?
blacknwhitedynamite
30-Mar-13, 16:17
that didn't answer my question. I haven' seen any substantial answers from the 'Better Together' campaign just them calling pro-independent people stupid and attempted scare mongering
MerlinScot
30-Mar-13, 16:20
This is a question that bothered me for a long time.......
It is for secessionist and/or unionists, you choose....
How will Scotland's government deal with 'unionist' counties later on? What happens if the lowlands vote for yes and the north counties vote for No?
Are the Highlands going back to be a 'problem' as it was in the 16th century?
Meaning..... the main financial argument supporting independence is oil. I have various friends in Orkney and Shetland stating that they don't want to be part of an independent Scotland and their MPs agree.
What happens if they rebel against Eck and want to stay in the UK separately? Am I wrong in saying that part of the oil rigs float in their waters?
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 16:24
that didn't answer my question. I haven' seen any substantial answers from the 'Better Together' campaign just them calling pro-independent people stupid and attempted scare mongeringDo you really expect a serious person like me to give to a serious answer to your stupid questions? Put your childish questions to a child, and you might get an answer that you want.
blacknwhitedynamite
30-Mar-13, 16:38
Do you really expect a serious person like me to give to a serious answer to your stupid questions? Put your childish questions to a child, and you might get an answer that you want.
This just typifies the 'Better Together' campaign, they won't answer any questions and fling insults around from their high horses thinking that everyone else is just stupid. It was a completely legit question, the only childish thing was your answer.
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 16:41
This just typifies the 'Better Together' campaign, they won't answer any questions and fling insults around from their high horses thinking that everyone else is just stupid. It was a completely legit question, the only childish thing was your answer.No. Your questions were all begging. You don't get serious answers when you post rubbish.
You've had your three chances. You're out already....
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 16:42
Petitio principii is tolerated only by fools.
John Little
30-Mar-13, 16:43
In recent UK governments with UK priorities - I am not criticising the individuals but the parties, their policies and their priorities. As for Reuben and your agreement with his musings where do you see that any political party has promised a post independence Utopia?
You mean have they used that word?
No.
But they promise all things to all people which to me is the same. And if you tell me that your own posts are not redolent of green broad sunlit pastures and Utopia, then i shall boggle in disbelief. You are one of the chief prophets of the promised land on this and other forums are you not?
blacknwhitedynamite
30-Mar-13, 16:52
you could certainly run the unionist campaign like this. skating around the questions with insults. I felt a need to post my views on here but should maybe go somewhere where I can have an intellectual grown up conversation on the subject because I sure as hell ain't getting it from the childish secrets in symmetry
I believe it gives us a chance, an opportunity for change. I personally want a better and fairer society ...but I accept that is up to what Scotland wants. I have never talked about utopia. I think it will be hard work and complex and we might be worse off at times but I believe the only option to do things in a different way is to vote for an Independent Scotland. I believe that we can afford it and that we can start to grow something better than what we have now. If you think that makes me a "prophet of the promised land... Redolent of sunlit pastures and utopia" then John, feel free. It actually saves you having to think up any arguments.
macadamia
30-Mar-13, 16:56
A propos of nothing, while whizzing through some of the comments in the SNP barrage of PR releases, I encountered a real gem. Designed for the inventors of the so-called "Bedroom Tax", it refers to the Tories (with the usual string of insults) as "Bed Vetters". Good, no?
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 16:57
You mean have they used that word?
No.
But they promise all things to all people which to me is the same. And if you tell me that your own posts are not redolent of green broad sunlit pastures and Utopia, then i shall boggle in disbelief. You are one of the chief prophets of the promised land on this and other forums are you not?They're all like that John. They ignore things they don't understand - like why secession would lead to economic instability. Instead, they fantasise greedily and selfishly about yellow brick roads paved with gold, and driven on by tinpot men.
Please tell me, what has Westminster done for Scotland? could it be the continual closing of military bases in Scotland, the placing of the abomination that is trident in Scottish waters, bringing in the bedroom tax that was heavily opposed by Scottish MP's, sending our troops to fight an illegal war abroad that was opposed by Scotland, the moving of the Scottish maritime border to try and 'steal' OUR oil. The fact of it is, Westminster is not working for Scotland and we as a nation can do it betterI always find it interesting this view that Westminster is attacking & stealing from Scotland. They have done plenty of damage across England, N Ireland and Wales too. An independent Scotland would be closing just as many Military sites and retaining Trident for its lifetime.
They ignore things they don't understand - like why secession would lead to economic instability. . Can you explain then Secrets what exactly you mean by economic instability? How long would this last? Why would independence cause this and how would a vote for staying within the union prevent economic instability? John, perhaps you can tell me what people can do to affect a change within the UK. Given that I want something fairer and more equal what could I do to make that happen that would be more effective than a vote for Independence for Scotland?
John Little
30-Mar-13, 17:52
A propos of nothing, while whizzing through some of the comments in the SNP barrage of PR releases, I encountered a real gem. Designed for the inventors of the so-called "Bedroom Tax", it refers to the Tories (with the usual string of insults) as "Bed Vetters". Good, no? That' s not bad at all. Definitely on a par with the lesser of two weevils! :)
John Little
30-Mar-13, 18:03
Can you explain then Secrets what exactly you mean by economic instability? How long would this last? Why would independence cause this and how would a vote for staying within the union prevent economic instability? John, perhaps you can tell me what people can do to affect a change within the UK. Given that I want something fairer and more equal what could I do to make that happen that would be more effective than a vote for Independence for Scotland?
There is only one national party with the ideology, the clout and the nous to effect the sort of change that is needed, and that is another party deriving from Scots ideas and a sense of humanity - and that is Labour.
I have never voted for them. Early in my life they were too Left and married to guild socialism. Now they are too right, but i firmly believe that pendulum is swinging and that Labour are moving to become the kind of centre left social democratic party that i am convinced most people in this country wish to see. I think that they will win the next general election.
I also believe that the revulsion felt across broad areas of the UK about the coalition's policies will deliver a mandate for change not seen since 1945. Little Englanders and Little Scotlanders threaten that.
Your lot just want to hive off all the goodies they can grab and that will simply leave other areas bereft of what they might have achieved within the UK. UK reforming governments can deliver- vide 1906 and 1945. Even, gawdelpus, 1979 which went the other way.
Unity is strength.
You ask a question. My answer is vote Labour for Social Democracy across the UK - and work within Labour if you wish to move it slightly left.
There is only one national party with the ideology, the clout and the nous to effect the sort of change that is needed, and that is another party deriving from Scots ideas and a sense of humanity - and that is Labour. I have never voted for them. Early in my life they were too Left and married to guild socialism. Now they are too right, but i firmly believe that pendulum is swinging and that Labour are moving to become the kind of centre left social democratic party that i am convinced most people in this country wish to see. I think that they will win the next general election. I also believe that the revulsion felt across broad areas of the UK about the coalition's policies will deliver a mandate for change not seen since 1945. Little Englanders and Little Scotlanders threaten that. Your lot just want to hive off all the goodies they can grab and that will simply leave other areas bereft of what they might have achieved within the UK. UK reforming governments can deliver- vide 1906 and 1945. Even, gawdelpus, 1979 which went the other way. Unity is strength.You ask a question. My answer is vote Labour for Social Democracy across the UK - and work within Labour if you wish to move it slightly left.I spent years working within the labour party as an individual and as a trade union member and rep. I have seen them move so far away from the left that it bears no resemblance to the party that I knew. I cannot see Ed miliband as electable, He doesnt poll well as a leader and potential prime minister and, although I have seen better performances in PMQ's I still see a failure to condemn policies like the bill to introduce retrospective legislation on benefits. Scottish labour is as bad, they champion policies which go against traditional core labour policies. Labour are failing to use their influence to reduce the effect of the bedroom tax, they gave up their opposition to nuclear weapons, they have moved far away from the "scots ideas" which shaped them. They have stated that they will not replace policies or reverse cuts introduced by this government. I see little evidence of any shift and it is a sadness to me. I have neither hope nor expectation that they will be a catalyst for real change.
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 19:07
UK reforming governments can deliver- vide 1906 and 1945. Even, gawdelpus, 1979 which went the other way. 1979 didn't deliver - it was a disaster in most respects. Thatcher was saved economically by North Sea oil, and politically by the Falklands War plus an equally economically incompetent Labour Party. The latter part of 1983 and the early part of 1987 'delivered'.
John Little
30-Mar-13, 19:16
1979 didn't deliver - it was a disaster in most respects. Thatcher was saved economically by North Sea oil, and politically by the Falklands War plus an equally economically incompetent Labour Party. The latter part of 1983 and the early part of 1987 'delivered'.
I was thinking rather of a shift in ideology and ideas which seemed to vindicate Thatcherism to too many people. The pernicious idea that the market is all.
You cannot deny surely that this idea caused great social change?
It still affects us, apropos of what is about to happen with the bedroom tax. The NHS, education, social services suffer from this sophistry and it needs to be purged from society because it is anti human.
We need government of the people, by the people and for the people - not the market.
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 19:20
I was thinking rather of a shift in ideology and ideas which seemed to vindicate Thatcherism to too many people. The pernicious idea that the market is all.
You cannot deny surely that this idea caused great social change?I know you were, but I never tire of pointing out that the first Thatcher government was an economic and political disaster!
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 19:33
That' s not bad at all. Definitely on a par with the lesser of two weevils! :)
If at first you don't secede, then lie, lie, and lie again!
John Little
30-Mar-13, 20:20
I spent years working within the labour party as an individual and as a trade union member and rep. I have seen them move so far away from the left that it bears no resemblance to the party that I knew. I cannot see Ed miliband as electable, He doesnt poll well as a leader and potential prime minister and, although I have seen better performances in PMQ's I still see a failure to condemn policies like the bill to introduce retrospective legislation on benefits. Scottish labour is as bad, they champion policies which go against traditional core labour policies. Labour are failing to use their influence to reduce the effect of the bedroom tax, they gave up their opposition to nuclear weapons, they have moved far away from the "scots ideas" which shaped them. They have stated that they will not replace policies or reverse cuts introduced by this government. I see little evidence of any shift and it is a sadness to me. I have neither hope nor expectation that they will be a catalyst for real change.
I see no reason in this to break up the UK.
I do see every reason to rejoin Labour and help reposition it where it could and should be. Why abandon it to the Right? Milliband grows visibly on his road to Damascus.
I think he may do.
The SNP are pretty good at shifting their position too...
John Little
30-Mar-13, 20:21
If at first you don't secede, then lie, lie, and lie again!That's pretty good and with more than a grain of truth i think. :)
I see no reason in this to break up the UK. .. I know you dont that is why you dont support an Independent Scotland.
II do see every reason to rejoin Labour and help reposition it where it could and should be. ..
You may do so if you wish, you were however never a member, nor a voter for the labour party and so you do not share my experience, disappointment and dismay. Nor my sense of betrayal. You are on a different hilltop and that is ok. I understand that John. I accept your point of view but I cannot agree with it. I dont however think you are a fool, a traitor, stupid or otherwise ... You have your opinion and I have mine... What did you call it? Bright shiny future of utopian bliss? Jeezo John, I was a labour voter AND a Man City fan.... I learnt years ago that the future is never one of effortless utopia. What I do know, what is one of those FACTS people keep looking for is that with Independence Scotland has the power to make decisions and decide the sort of society we live in through the policies we choose. Thats it.
If at first you don't secede, then lie, lie, and lie again!More witty asides and yet no answers. It is always gratifying when I win a bet. I could ask Secrets anything and indeed on occasion do so and he NEVER answers. Ill keep trying though, there are a few of us running a book....
John Little
30-Mar-13, 21:41
My sense of betrayal might be greater if i were of the SNP.
On so many issues. I have asked repeatedly if there is any point of principle on which they are prepared to make a stand after seeing what they did over NATO, bases, the Euro, EU membership, the Monarchy.
No answer.
You are not an SNP member, so why pin your hopes to their increasingly bankrupt agenda?
John Little
30-Mar-13, 21:45
So do i......
My sense of betrayal might be greater if i were of the SNP. On so many issues. I have asked repeatedly if there is any point of principle on which they are prepared to make a stand after seeing what they did over NATO, bases, the Euro, EU membership, the Monarchy. No answer. You are not an SNP member, so why pin your hopes to their increasingly bankrupt agenda? I pin my hopes on democracy and the opportunity for change. For me That means the democratic right of the Scottish electorate to determine whether they want to be governed by Westminster or be an Independent Country governing ourselves and the opportunity for change which that decision offers.
John Little
30-Mar-13, 21:55
I speak of UK democracy.
Your version speaks of the right of a group to break away from a stable and ancient polity in search of gain and advantage for themselves: to set up an exclusive club of 'haves', leaping free with one mighty bound, leaving the rest of us in the lurch.
Why?
Because you can by virtue of Scotland being a nation, though you do not have to be Scots to do it.
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 21:57
That's pretty good and with more than a grain of truth i think. :)It's the absolute truth. :cool:
I speak of UK democracy.
Your version speaks of the right of a group to break away from a stable and ancient polity in search of gain and advantage for themselves: to set up an exclusive club of 'haves', leaping free with one mighty bound, leaving the rest of us in the lurch.
Why?
Because you can by virtue of Scotland being a nation, though you do not have to be Scots to do it.
My version lol .... I ... ME... cant do anything except vote . The people of Scotland will choose, not me, not you, not Alex Salmond, not Alistair Darling, not David Cameron not the Queen but the Scottish Electorate and, yes by the fact that Scotland is a seperate country, a nation. I dont think that there is a conflict between UK democracy and the Scottish referendum. Democracy speaks of the right of a country to choose whether to govern itself. Would you deny the people of a country their right to choose Independence or to remain as part of the union? What sort of democracy is that?
John Little
30-Mar-13, 22:23
Oh far be it from me to deny the opportunity of a group of opportunists to test the mettle of the people of Scotland.
I trust in their good sense and have faith that they take as much pride in being British as i do.
They will give you a tidy answer i doubt not.
Scotland will be like Glasgow Rangers if it gains independance.
Dilusions of granduer,at the bottom of a league of micky mouse countries and led by a man who hasnt got the guts or capabilities to stand on his own 2 feet.
No surrender ;)
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 22:29
Scotland will be like Glasgow Rangers if it gains independance.
Dilusions of granduer,at the bottom of a league of micky mouse countries and led by a man who hasnt got the guts or capabilities to stand on his own 2 feet.
Indeed.
Eck could beat Thatcher at her own game of squandering North Sea Oil.
On second thoughts, Thatcher's UK was in a better economic position than a seceded Scotland would be in. Thatcher's UK didn't suffer from hundreds of thousands of economic refugees leaving a sinking ship like a seceded Scotland would suffer.
John Little
30-Mar-13, 22:46
utter rubbish
Not so. Here's an analogy for you, if you are interested- which i doubt.
The irresponsible gamble you are so set on could easily lead to this. Do you deny it?
And if so, why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/jan/20/ireland-emigration-australia
secrets in symmetry
30-Mar-13, 22:57
Yes, the young Irish have been leaving the sinking ship for a number of years now. I know a number of Scots who have gone to Australia because they fear what would happen after secession here. There is also the beginning of a movement to England. This is all established fact, not speculation.
The problem is that only the young can go down under. Australia is so expensive that older established people can't afford to buy a house. The young don't care, they don't need to buy a house. The result would be an ageing Scottish population with no-one to pay their pensions.
I wouldn't care because I'd be long gone. See, I can be as selfish and greedy as the secessionists. :cool:
Not so. Here's an analogy for you, if you are interested- which i doubt.
The irresponsible gamble you are so set on could easily lead to this. Do you deny it?
And if so, why?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/jan/20/ireland-emigration-australia
Do I deny it? You present a possibility and ask me to deny it.
You say it could EASILY lead to this - thats nonsense just like Secret's hundreds of thousands of economic refugees perhaps all of them have ridden in his lift. :roll:
I would suggest that there is about the same POSSIBILITY that the scenario you suggest would apply to Scotland as there is that it would apply to the UK. Is it likely? I would think not.
You say it could EASILY lead to this - thats nonsense just like Secret's hundreds of thousands of economic refugees perhaps all of them have ridden in his lift. :roll:.
My Dad was an economic refugee fron Caithness as far back as 1946,he had to move to Perthshire to get work as a Ploughman, until he took a stroke aged 56, and then became a liftman
Scotland will be like Glasgow Rangers if it gains independance.
Dilusions of granduer,at the bottom of a league of micky mouse countries and led by a man who hasnt got the guts or capabilities to stand on his own 2 feet.
No surrender ;)
Not that I'm a Rangers fan by any means...but they aren't doing that badly....are they? (Much as it annoys me, as I think they were not penalised enough!) Granted they are no longer in a position to get into Europe.....or dictate to the SPL....but given they could just as easily have disappeared into the hole occupied by the likes of Third Lanark, being top of the Third is a good outcome so far.
So in the great scheme of things...if Scotland can leave the Union with as much of the assets (proportionately) as Sevco managed to get...and as little of the debt (proportionately) as they got off with taking...and if the Union, into the bargain, decides to do as the SFA and SPL appear to be continuing breaking their necks to try to do, re Sevco, to ensure the SFA and the SPL don't lose out too long and too much..there are a number of reported threatened UK footstamping/pouting responses to Scottish Independence which will cost the rUK unnecessary money (think about the Irish Relationship with UK after their Independence)....so a comparison with Rangers isn't really a great analogy..is it?
piratelassie
31-Mar-13, 02:16
When I posted this thread I asked for your thoughts and although some comments from the better together side were serious and interesting there were far too many stupid and infantile remarks based yet again on scare mongering. These latter remarks are wearing a bit thin now and quite frankly boring.
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 02:59
My Dad was an economic refugee fron Caithness as far back as 1946,he had to move to Perthshire to get work as a Ploughman, until he took a stroke aged 56, and then became a liftmanMuch respect to your Dad golach.
If I lived in the north of England, I would be very worried about economic refugees heading south from Scotland. It may not require actual secession to trigger the flood. Fear of job losses in the period leading up to possible secession might be enough to trigger a mass exodus of workers from Scotland.
Has anyone considered offering George Gunn a contract to write a Caithness version of Of Mice and Men?
John Little
31-Mar-13, 08:14
Do I deny it? You present a possibility and ask me to deny it. You say it could EASILY lead to this - thats nonsense just like Secret's hundreds of thousands of economic refugees perhaps all of them have ridden in his lift. :roll:I would suggest that there is about the same POSSIBILITY that the scenario you suggest would apply to Scotland as there is that it would apply to the UK. Is it likely? I would think not.
I see that you make a choice to focus on 'easily' rather than 'could'.
Ireland is not scaremongering. It is a useful working model of what is far from a remote possibility. Note i do not say probability.
That choice of yours is interesting.
I suggest that you google 'confirmation bias': it's an interesting description of much that is happening in Scotland right now.
If I agree that it is a possibility but I believe it is a faint one then the area of disagreement is the word easily. its no more complicated than that.
There are few credible people who say that Scotland would not prosper and could not afford independence. The economy in Scotland is slightly better than the rest of the UK and the government we have currently balances the books.We are a country rich in resources... not simply oil, a growing food and drinks industry, tourism renewables and others, and within an independent Scotland the ability to prioritise growth in a way that the UK is not doing. Why do you assume that we would fail other than it suits your agenda no one has given any reasons for the economic failure of an Independent Scotland. You all simply hang your heads and mutter "we are dooomed, doomed".
I believe we would be better placed for success which suits MY Point of view right enough but my reasons are that an Independent Scotland would have the control to grow its economy, it would have the power to choose its priorities and address its challenges - economic or otherwise. What are yours and Secrets reasons for assuming that it would fail, for assuming this easy slip into a country with no future and mass emigration to the north
What you are talking about is possibilty but you are ignoring probabilty. It is possible that Secrets may answer a direct question from me but given all that I know it is not probable. It is possible that You might change your mind but given what we see it is not probable. There is always the POSSIBILITY of something. I have a lottery ticket but is it likely i would win? No. Scotland could possibly crash and burn but given the information we have is it probable? No.
John Little
31-Mar-13, 10:33
Did you look at the phenomenon of confirmation bias?
Did you look at the phenomenon of confirmation bias?
Did you think I needed to? I wrote about confirmation bias ages ago as far as the economic issues at the time were concerned. However, whilst I have shown what I use to confirm my own viewpoint, as yet I have seen nothing here to confirm the suggestions made by Secrets or yourself as to why YOU guys think Scotland would crash and burn sending a stream of refugees to the north of england, other than one article about Ireland which draws no comparisons with Scotland.
When you weigh up the information you have access to then you see what you see through the eyes of experience, preference, beliefs, morals and a whole range of stuff. Was it you who argued some time ago that poverty doesnt exist and yet we read that 30% of the population are in poverty. Confirmation bias is not a phenomenon its part of human nature.
Edited: apologies John it was M Swanson who posted about poverty ... Not yourself.... Wonder where she has gone, I hope its somewhere sunny:)
John Little
31-Mar-13, 11:10
Perhaps the reason why people like me think that there is a good chance that Scotland will crash and burn is because you guys have got no plans.
To me Scotland is a vibrant place full of energy, dynamism, people who work hard and a healthy prosperous place, more than holding its own within this United Kingdom. There are places within Scotland that have problems and there are social issues to address - as there are in other parts of the UK. These can be addressed by the UK.
Societies and economies that prosper do not happen by accident; the market depends much on Confidence.
A group of people who assert a lot, bluster, shift their principles, will not see what they do not wish to see, lie about legal advice and base their future economy on assumptions are perhaps not the best ones to base a better future on.
They offer a leap in the dark; and to me it's an unprincipled one because it is, of itself, selfish and is founded on hopes - and that is all.
You have offered no programme to the people of Scotland that rational people can accept. It's heavy on emotion, venally calculating and as full of air as a choux pastry- which is why, based on present showing, Scotland will vote no.
Any country with a government without firm plans will crash and burn in a funeral pyre of its own empty dreams.
If that happens then, like Ireland, Scotland's greatest export may well be its young and its skilled.
And whose responsibility will that be?
You gamble for great stakes and need a firmer offer.
You have a year to offer a better deal.
You sneer at pro independence views as utopian and yet offer the view that Independence will lead to armageddon... Both hyperbolic nonsense which offer nothing to any debate.
You use as your reasoning the lack of plans? Oh, there are plans John, all the parties, both pro and anti independence have plans to some level of detail. There are plans galore. Plans for pensions, plans for renewables, plans being drawn up as we speak for welfare, plans for infrastructure, for defence, for trident. Some are quite firm - the SNP are quite firm in some of their plans, the SDA less so. There is also the single most important plan which is to allow Scotland to choose.
And so we are right back where we started with this. Independence is nothing - by itself it changes nothing, and yet everything because without it nothing will change.
Now, easter egg hunting calls me followed by a family dinner :) Happy Easter John :)
John Little
31-Mar-13, 12:21
Oh the irony!
A Nat speaks to me of hyperbole!
More
of
the
same.
PS - is every criticism of what you want to be classified 'sneering'?
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 12:45
Confirmation bias? It's selfishness. Perhaps... But it's also evil evangelism! The saddest part is that it's mass delusion.
Do you think today's secessionist evangelists will be in the first wave of refugees heading south lol!
Immigration would become a huge topic in England. How to prevent Scottish immigrants taking 'our' jobs and coming south just to get benefits? There would need to be strict border controls to keep the secessionists out!
piratelassie
31-Mar-13, 13:03
Little John, do you honestly believe,HONESTLY believe an independent Scotland would have the remotist chance of crashing and burning as you keep saying. We are a nation of talented people, low population, with our hands on our own till self sufficient in food and energy supplies etc. Thankfully a lot more of our people have more faith, and the number is growing as the latest polls show.
Oh the irony!
A Nat speaks to me of hyperbole!
More
of
the
same.
PS - is every criticism of what you want to be classified 'sneering'?
John Little
31-Mar-13, 13:05
Faith is what we have in religions.
Politics is rather more hard nosed.
Unless you number among the true believers.
Religions also usually have a prophet or messiah in whom people are asked to believe without question.
Who is yours?
Oh the irony!A Nat speaks to me of hyperbole!Moreof the same.PS - is every criticism of what you want to be classified 'sneering'?Sneering is my word of the moment and there is sooooo much of it goes on here that it is worth using over and over again.
Where is the evidence to support your doom laden view of post independence armageddon? There is about as much evidence of the possibility of your scenario as there is that Independence will cause a zombie invasion. You try to perpetuate a discredited argument that Scotland is too poor too wee and too stupid to get anything right. Its beneath you.
As for faith, this isnt about faith, its about hard work, commitment, vision - sure but economics and making things work. There are many arguments worth having but this one is about as much of a fantasy as yhe denial of votes for troops was.
Well you believe that John, I am wasting no more time on your Dads army doom.
Humerous Vegetable
31-Mar-13, 13:33
you could certainly run the unionist campaign like this. skating around the questions with insults. I felt a need to post my views on here but should maybe go somewhere where I can have an intellectual grown up conversation on the subject because I sure as hell ain't getting it from the childish secrets in symmetry
You will struggle to receive a thoughtful and intelligent answer to any vaguely political question on this website and only if you can get past the 3 Billy-Goats Gruff. There are occasional well thought out and reasoned comments from both pro and anti independence proponents, including some who don't live in Scotland and won't be voting next year. But most of them are living under a bridge, singing sad songs to themselves.
Don't be disheartened; I have (occasionally) been a member of this website for 7 years, and hardly ever post now. There are better websites for political comment.
The problem at the moment seems to be that the Scottish electorate think that they are voting for the SNP next year, when they are actually voting for a chance to become an independent country again. No other Scottish party has offered us that choice.
Really!? ,i thinks its just perfect :)
Not that I'm a Rangers fan by any means...but they aren't doing that badly....are they? (Much as it annoys me, as I think they were not penalised enough!) Granted they are no longer in a position to get into Europe.....or dictate to the SPL....but given they could just as easily have disappeared into the hole occupied by the likes of Third Lanark, being top of the Third is a good outcome so far.
So in the great scheme of things...if Scotland can leave the Union with as much of the assets (proportionately) as Sevco managed to get...and as little of the debt (proportionately) as they got off with taking...and if the Union, into the bargain, decides to do as the SFA and SPL appear to be continuing breaking their necks to try to do, re Sevco, to ensure the SFA and the SPL don't lose out too long and too much..there are a number of reported threatened UK footstamping/pouting responses to Scottish Independence which will cost the rUK unnecessary money (think about the Irish Relationship with UK after their Independence)....so a comparison with Rangers isn't really a great analogy..is it?
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 14:07
You will struggle to receive a thoughtful and intelligent answer to any vaguely political question on this website and only if you can get past the 3 Billy-Goats Gruff. There are occasional well thought out and reasoned comments from both pro and anti independence proponents, including some who don't live in Scotland and won't be voting next year. But most of them are living under a bridge, singing sad songs to themselves.
Don't be disheartened; I have (occasionally) been a member of this website for 7 years, and hardly ever post now. There are better websites for political comment.
The problem at the moment seems to be that the Scottish electorate think that they are voting for the SNP next year, when they are actually voting for a chance to become an independent country again. No other Scottish party has offered us that choice.As you say, some of us do put forward rational objective arguments, but the trolls don't listen, and when they do listen they tend not to understand.
John Little
31-Mar-13, 14:27
Good Lord - I come back after dinner and find this;
"Where is the evidence to support your doom laden view of post independence armageddon? There is about as much evidence of the possibility of your scenario as there is that Independence will cause a zombie invasion. You try to perpetuate a discredited argument that Scotland is too poor too wee and too stupid to get anything right".
Where on earth have I ever said that Scotland is too poor, too wee and too stupid to get anything right ? I would never say such a thing.
I know that the Nats can twist things out of all recognition but this really does take the biscuit.
I have said nothing bad about Scotland.
So I think you have not read what I have said or that you have not understood it. So I shall say it again.
I have absolutely no doubt that Scotland could make it on her own. Nobody but an idiot disputes that - and nobody but an idiot would dispute that there would be a price to pay.
However the bunch of people who are trying to take Scotland down the road to independence have no policies, plans or principles that could demonstrate to any current logic that they can sustain the level of prosperity and standard of living currently found in Scotland.
I am not having a go at Scotland but at your lack of planning, your blind faith and your willingness to follow the pied piper who will lead down the road to ruin.
Get a set of coherent and believable policies, stop making it up as you go along, convince people that their standard of living will be safe in your hands and they will vote for you.
Any country, even Scotland, can suffer if led by fools.
As to Billy Goat Gruff - I would rather be that than the Nat trio.
Hear no evil
See no evil
Speak no evil.
Reality check. You are the ones who need evidence. I live in the UK - and it works.
Would your everything to everybody pipe dream work too?
Or as well?
John Little
31-Mar-13, 14:31
Dad's Army - they were British weren't they?
Post number 105 below this deserves a lot of attention.
The UK put its clocks forward last night, its a pity the Yes voters want us to put them back 700 years.
equusdriving
31-Mar-13, 17:41
The UK put its clocks forward last night, its a pity the Yes voters want us to put them back 700 years.
and that sums it up perfectly!
Humerous Vegetable
31-Mar-13, 18:08
Yes, you might live in England, but the system has never worked in Scotland. We had the Poll Tax introduced a year earlier then it was introduced in England & Wales to see how it would play out. We are sitting here like guinea pigs, waiting for the next Westminster experiment. Nothing that the Westminster parliament has ever decided has ever benefitted Scotland.
You appear to be somebody who happily cycles (or drives) around intersting sites, making patronising comments as you go, but does not live or work in Caithness.
I hardly ever post on here, but smug Englishmen telling us how to think gets up my nose alarmingly. Time to go to Dunett beach for some frash air.
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 20:25
Is there no limit to the ludicrous claims made by secessionists? I think it may be something to do with bold fonts....
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 20:26
The UK put its clocks forward last night, its a pity the Yes voters want us to put them back 700 years.I thought they wanted a peasant society that predates even Bannockburn!
John Little
31-Mar-13, 20:33
Is there no limit to the ludicrous claims made by secessionists? I think it may be something to do with bold fonts.....
I reckon you are right.
The NHS, the welfare state... Evil Westminster.
Bad English.
They're all smug and tell you what to do. Do you think the anti- English aspect of the Secessionist cause just crept out of the woodpile?
Or is it just what i used to get at the Miller because i was an atomic kid? And is it okay for smug Englishwomen to tell you what to do?
secrets in symmetry
31-Mar-13, 20:40
And is it okay for smug Englishwomen to tell you what to do?Only if its Theresa May brandishing a three-line-whip. :cool:
Oh dear me, this is not about telling anyone what to do. Lets say this again. I dont tell anyone how they should vote. I comment on how and why I am supporting independence.
As for evidence, well you and secrets offered the possibility of mass emigration and economic meltdown. I didnt ask for evidence from a NO campaign as to why it is better to be in the union. In post 78 i think Secrets said thatthere would be mass exodus of refugees. You supported that and offered up an article saying that the scenario was " far from a remote possibility" which suggested that despite you editting your post to say you arent talking about probability, that you had actually made an assessment of the liklihood of the situation before posting about it. I asked You and secrets why you think that, did you have any evidence for your point of view or which supports YOUR suggestions, assertions and inferences that Scotland may possibly and perhaps could or would probably, but maybe not and definitely perhaps being as its far from a remote possibility fail spectacularly enough to send massive amounts of people streaming over the border. You could have just said "erm no".
Im glad you think Scotland can do well if Independent. So do I.
John Little
01-Apr-13, 08:45
Ah well - just to be clear about parallels between Scotland and Ireland, there is actually a reasonable amount of stuff out there if you go looking.
If you do not look then you do not find.
But surely people thinking about breaking up the Union actually should be looking for possible outcomes apart from the one they wish for?
I found this one very thought provoking. I have no doubt that you will come right back with 'utter rubbish' and the juvenile who always puts my name backwards will scream 'scaremongering'. But there ye go - i did not write it.
http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/uk/independent-scotland-must-abandon-sterling-20900
John Little
01-Apr-13, 08:53
So, assuming you have read that by now, you may see that the scenario put forward by SiS and humble self is not too remote: it could happen.
Whether or not it happens depends on choices.
Choices mean that you have to be clear about what you are choosing.
So you tell me - Pound, Euro, or Scots currency?
And that's just one issue.
Btw - if you do not know the answer to this conundrum already, should you be pushing the people of Scotland towards the choice you want them to make?
John Little
01-Apr-13, 09:03
Cue big long post about Scotland is not Ireland, rich in raw materials, natural resources, renewables, oil....
Or it could be the one about a brighter better future and choosing for ourselves instead of Westminster...etc
If you do plump for one of those three alternatives, could you spell out to us why it is best, and what the possible pitfalls are?
but smug Englishmen telling us how to think gets up my nose alarminglyOh! Mr Salmond is not Scottish then!!
So, assuming you have read that by now, you may see that the scenario put forward by SiS and humble self is not too remote: it could happen. Whether or not it happens depends on choices. Choices mean that you have to be clear about what you are choosing.So you tell me - Pound, Euro, or Scots currency?And that's just one issue.Btw - if you do not know the answer to this conundrum already, should you be pushing the people of Scotland towards the choice you want them to make?
My personal preference would be to have a seperate currency for some of the reasons mentioned in the article, however, there is credible evidence for staying with the pound at least to begin with. The SNP plans for Scotland to continue using the pound, the Scottish greens for a separate currency further along the line although sooner rather than later and the SDA for immediate change to a new currency. I dont know what Labour, Libdems or Tories have as their post independence plans because they wont discuss it.
I will consider all the options and decide what I believe is best for Scotland as part of who I choose to vote for in 2016.
Voting YES IN 2014 gives me the opportunity to do that.
John Little
01-Apr-13, 09:44
So basically the answer from the Secessionist side on the issue of what currency they will have is 'Don't know'.
And you do not find that extraordinary?
That at this stage of asking people to choose, the leaders of the Independence group cannot provide an answer to that one very fundamental question?
What data will you use to decide with?
I should like to read it myself, as I am sure many others would.
You will not consider all the options, for you will not consider staying with the Union even if it appears best for Scotland.
I dont know what Labour, Libdems or Tories have as their post independence plans because they wont discuss it.
Presumably none.
John Little
01-Apr-13, 09:48
Have you now any thoughts on the parallels or lack of them, with Ireland?
equusdriving
01-Apr-13, 09:57
So basically the answer from the Secessionist side on the issue of what currency they will have is 'Don't know'.
And you do not find that extraordinary?
That at this stage of asking people to choose, the leaders of the Independence group cannot provide an answer to that one very fundamental question?
What data will you use to decide with?
I should like to read it myself, as I am sure many others would.
You will not consider all the options, for you will not consider staying with the Union even if it appears best for Scotland.
and the scary thing is these people will vote for Independence regardless of having any answers, to what surely must be some of the most important questions any open minded person would need, before deciding the most important decision of their lives
John chasing your multiple posts and numerous edits adding questions to questions around this thread is exhausting and an excercise in futility which is beginning to bore me.
The answer is that The currency we will be using after a Yes vote in the referendum is the pound. Full stop, no ambiguity. The currency which will be used in an Independent Scotland is the one which the people of Scotland CHOOSE at the ballot box in 2016. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
The SNP have a clear plan to continue with the pound. The geeens to move towards a new currency and the SDA to immediately have a new currency. The others will tell us no doubt after a YES vote. As for evidence why I currently hold the opinion that I do, well your article gave some reasons and there are others. After telling me to go look for evidence to support YOUR hypothesis myself, you are telling me to give you evidence to support MY opinion. I have come to the conclusions by reading all the options you go do that too if you want.
You and now equus talk about open mindedness but it seems your definition of being open minded is agreeing with you. When I said that i was supporting Independence I also said I reserve the right to change my mind. If it becomes apparent or the evidence persuades me that it is better for Scotland to remain as part of the union then that is what I will vote for. As you have told me that there is no need for the NO campaign to try to persuade me of anything cos its up to the YES campaign to make THEIR case then I will not hold my breath.
John Little
01-Apr-13, 10:20
So you plan to stay with the Pound?
How long have the discussions with the Bank of England and the UK Treasury been going on?
At what stage are they?
Have they agreed a mechanism for adjusting the value of the Pound Scots against the UK Pound?
Will the UK government actually agree to sharing the Pound or does the Irish experience with the Punt have any relevance?
It's not my article - if you look at the top you can see the name of the man who wrote it. He spells out quite a few pitfalls of staying with the Pound.
You are happy to risk all that?
And can you see why he draws a analogy with Ireland?
You do not comment on Ireland?
John Little
01-Apr-13, 10:24
I do apologise awfully much for my futile questions.
I know questions are inconvenient and should not be asked, but with implications for jobs, savings, wages, mortgages, insurance etc there should surely be some certainties over what money you will be using in under two years time?
John. In under two years time we will still be using the pound. we will not be Independent until 2016 and so will remai. Part of the UK and using the pound until then. There is no doubt about that it is clear and unambiguous.
I would prefer a scottish currency. As you know the UK government has refused to carry out any negotiations. The article you quote reinforces my belief that a seperate currency would be best. I have commented on Ireland as far as you and secrets ridiculous hypothesis is concerned, i said it was utter rubbish and i still think its utter rubbish. Questions arent inconvenient John but it is futile for me to try to answer yours because you edit them and add to them quicker than I can answer them and Im trying to be respectful and do other things at the same time. You have my answer on MY opinion on the currency and how I see the way things are. You dont agree - fine, i have nothing different to say. What do you want me to say?
John Little
01-Apr-13, 11:04
I have clearly been living with a misunderstanding.
You have said repeatedly that you wanted a 'debate' and that you enjoyed arguing on these matters - it 'amused' you.
'Debate' obviously means different things to you and I.
Debate to me means asking awkward questions in search of accurate and clear cut answers. Its function is to clarify, to make the other side think again and to present an opposing view.
Debate is not about denial of inconvenient reports in reputable magazines, great fluffy puffs about bright new worlds and better futures and high flown visions of what might happen were you free of the clearly faceless bureaucrats in 'Westminster'.
I now know what you would prefer.
Of course the UK government has refused to negotiate - that is their job.
Their job is to run the UK, not break it up - that is their mandate from the British people, including Scotland.
The 'ridiculous hypothesis' is clearly inconvenient to you, so you will do what Nationalists tend to do - you will neither answer it nor address it.
I sincerely hope that people reading this will click on that link, read it and decide for themselves whether what Sean Keyes said is 'ridiculous'.
For your information I paste his biography here;
"Seán graduated from Trinity College, Dublin with a BA in Economics and Political Science and, in 2009, from University College Dublin with an MA in Economics. His MA thesis was on the likely effects of deficient eurozone governance structures. Seán joined MoneyWeek in 2011 after spending two years running an online retailer. He writes on economics and contributes to Moneyweek’s investment newsletters."
Of course i realise that he does not know what on earth he is talking about, but you condemn his views as ridiculous' and your claims to want 'debate' are exposed as nothing more than bankrupt posturing.
Futile indeed.
Actually you are right - there is no point in talking about this any more.
The currency which will be used in an Independent Scotland is the one which the people of Scotland CHOOSE at the ballot box in 2016. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?It seems that yet again some are putting the excuses out now to the Govt' of 2016, a tad unfair methinks.
You may think its unfair Phil but thats democracy. the people will vote for the government they want to decide. :)
john, I answered all your questions over and over again. Whatever Sean Keyes says, whoever he is I dont really care. I dont agree with the comments you and Secrets made about refugees, mass emigration and an economic meltdown are just nonsense. A possibility sure and I have said that but so small as to be nonsense. The article supports my view that a seperate currency would be our best option and it offers the scenario that Scotland may struggle like Ireland does without it, however you and secrets suggest something more. I have told you why i think the way I think and you dont agree. Thats ok John - you are entitled to your opinion that Scotlands Independence will lead to thousands of people fleeing to the North of England. I dont agree that this is a likely scenario.
Now, the sun is shining. Im on book three of George R R Martins "A song of Ice and Fire" I start a new job after six years not working on Friday and my darling husband and son appear in the brochure for Historic Scotland's Summer Events which is always nice to see http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/eventsguide-summer2013.pdf. Im off to do some reading, smiling, gardening :)
John Little
01-Apr-13, 11:27
Dear God - this is unbelievable.
You have not answered my questions.
It is NOT my opinion that counts here and not even my opinion I gave.
You asked for back up to what SiS and I were saying about the analogy with Ireland. I gave you an article by a reputable and well qualified economist writing in a well regarded magazine.
Not only do you dismiss it but you say you don't care!
One of the strongest proponents of Independence on these and other forums does not care that an expert warns that there might be some problems ahead depending on what currency Scotland chooses!
And goes off on some fluffy bunny digression about the sun shining, the book she's reading and her husband being in a brochure.
That's it folks.
I'm off this thread - and if I debate independence with Squidge again you can cut off my legs and call me Shorty!
You may think its unfair Phil but thats democracy. the people will vote for the government they want to decide. Fudging around the issue again. I understand how democracy works, what I don't understand is how someone wants to put the country to referendum on mere puff & boast whilst pushing all the detail and significant answers to a yet unelected govt' in 2016.
and if I debate independence with Squidge again you can cut off my legs and call me Shorty!Shorty!
One of the strongest proponents of Independence on these and other forums does not care that an expert warns that there might be some problems ahead depending on what currency Scotland chooses!!There are experts for every point if view John. I agree with much of this article and have said that. That is why I would prefer Scotland to have its own currency. I have said it will be hard work and we may be worse off. What I do not agree with is the scenario painted by you and secrets and others that Scotland would fail soooooo spectacularly we would be all eating tatties, neeps, nothing else and fleeing over the border. You offered that article as evidence of what you and secrets say and it doesnt do that. It draws comparisons with Ireland which we need to be aware of if we choose to keep the pound but nowhere, nowhere does it say that becoming Independent will cause a spectacular failure of the Scottish Economy. Now.... Secateurs....
Fudging around the issue again. I understand how democracy works, what I don't understand is how someone wants to put the country to referendum on mere puff & boast whilst pushing all the detail and significant answers to a yet unelected govt' in 2016. Because with independence the money raised in Scotland, gets spent on Scottish Priorities, decided by a Scottish Government elected and accountable to us. That is the difference and the the thing that gives us an opportunity to change things and grow a better fairer society. Whether we do or not is up to us. The evidence is that we can afford it. I dont believe that we can change things within the union and so thats why I will vote for Independence. I know my reasons may not be reasons that appeal to anyone else but they are mine and thats all really.
Wow! This is really an interesting topic to read. I like the thinking of the poster of this great post. I am not voting in 2014 as I am from United States. By the way I appreciate your work.
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If you come to live in Scotland for a couple of months Kenyone you can.
Why do you continually equate the YES camp with the SNP, get it right. The YES camp is an all party camp.
golach;1017121]just what are the SNP going to do to make our lives 'better' (as i keep hearing from the vote yes camp) as I haven't heard anything from them about a rise in the National Minimum Wage in a separate Scotland or a rise in benefit payments in a separate Scotland.[/QUOTE]
We have heard that Mr Salmond will get Scotland back into work, but he just hasnt explained HOW ??
equusdriving
02-Apr-13, 21:52
[/QUOTE]We have heard that Mr Salmond will get Scotland back into work, but he just hasnt explained HOW ??[/QUOTE]
maybe when he has decided what currency the wages will be in, he will let us know where all the work is coming from :confused
We have heard that Mr Salmond will get Scotland back into work, but he just hasnt explained HOW ??[/QUOTE]
maybe when he has decided what currency the wages will be in, he will let us know where all the work is coming from :confused[/QUOTE]
most likley eastern europe currency, never ceases to amaze me that unemployd people claim theres no work out there, yet eastern eurpeans always seem to find work , "strange that" perhaps its the will to work that needs looking at ? what happened to national pride ? whoops sorry I mean Scottish pride
maybe when he has decided what currency the wages will be in, he will let us know where all the work is coming from :confused
The SNP plan to use the pound after independence, the green party plan to introduce a Scottish currency but will use the pound initially and the SDA plan to introduce a scottish currency immediately upon independence.
equusdriving
02-Apr-13, 23:57
The SNP plan to use the pound after independence, the green party plan to introduce a Scottish currency but will use the pound initially and the SDA plan to introduce a scottish currency immediately upon independence.
oh they "plan to" use the pound, has this been approved yet then or is this another next election blah blah blah repeat answer
equusdriving
03-Apr-13, 00:08
oh they "plan to" use the pound, has this been approved yet then or is this another next election blah blah blah repeat answer
oh sorry squidge I just realized that you still haven't answered these same questions from John Little at the start of this thread lol
oh sorry squidge I just realized that you still haven't answered these same questions from John Little at the start of this thread lolSomeone in 2016 will have the answers, apparently!
Edit:Ultimately decided by us, democratically. So we should already know the answers.
Scotland can use the pound if Scotland wants to. ANY country can use the pound if it wants to do so.
As for John's questions. The negotiations will take place if there is a YES vote after the referendum and before Independence unless the UK want to discuss it sooner.
As for the rest of John's questions .... I have answered them. My answer is that I dont believe it is the right thing to do to keep the pound and so I cannot justify the policy to do so. I have made MY position clear on currency. I would prefer to have a Seperate Scottish currency and yet you demand I defend and justify a policy which I have said clearly that I dont agree with?
How am I supposed to do that?
I would prefer that we spent the time organising our own currency. Why would I have The answer to questions about a policy I think is wrong? Equus has sneered(oooh that word again lol) that I blindly follow the lead of one man and now I am getting a hard time for NOT agreeing with an SNP policy. Ok guys, why dont YOU tell me what YOU want me to say and we can skip all this.
As for 2016, well 2014 is about the type of government and democracy we want to have in Scotland. It is the beginning of a process which will continue for many years.
equusdriving
03-Apr-13, 09:58
As for 2016, well 2014 is about the type of government and democracy we want to have in Scotland. It is the beginning of a process which will continue for many years.
that's right, and who is to say that once we have jumped into the fire, that all the preferred options will still be available to us. In what other instance would people vote for something first and get the answer to their questions 2 years later? absolutely ridiculous!
It's a no from me. not because i think we shouldn't be independent, but because i think our politicians will be as corrupt and as useless as Westminster if not more so, with even less housekeeping skills if the disgusting expense of the new Scottish Parliament building and the fiasco of the tram lines is anything to go by. Heaven help us - the politicians won't.
Well said, Katarina, fully agree
equusdriving
03-Apr-13, 20:58
Well said, Katarina, fully agree
yes very well said
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