View Full Version : State pension in Scotland
Mr Swinney has ordered a report to calculate the cost of old age pension provision in an independent Scotland.
Most, like me have paid tax and NI into the UK and expect a state pension. I wonder how we will pay for it? So does he. Will he take into account the large numbers of Scots living and working in the rest of the UK that may well come home to claim their pension?
This question is one of many that have to be answered BEFORE the referendum. We need to know for sure what independence might bring because many of us are too long in the tooth to start again. I don’t want some nebulous dream from a fish called Alex. If the answers are not forthcoming, if they can’t sell the dream then it’s the Status Quo for me.
I'm not too sure but if the pension fund has been invested properly then it shouldn't matter where you live in the world as the pension investment company should be able to sort it but if the money has been squandered by the government in a half baked pension scheme then i can see a serious problem on the horizon
shot themselves in the foot here I think
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/leaked-paper-shows-snp-fears-over-cost-of-benefits.20368617
macadamia
07-Mar-13, 12:08
I'm sure the Buffoon of Brigadoon and his cerebral cabinet are even now burning the candle at both ends, and in the middle, to rush to the table all considerations such as sovereignty, currency, tax structure, pension issues, tax and local tax provisions, treaties, relations with overseas governments, squaring the circle concerning slagging off the next door neighbour, and probably biggest trading partner, whilst retaining the Queen, Sterling, and a "pick 'n mix" of every other thing shared with the "hated" Union.
I have every confidence that every last detail will be on the table for the population to approve. after all, he has a whole 20 months to do it all, assuming
a) Westminster immediately gives in to every detail of every proposal without demanding anything in return
b) Westminster doesn't get too annoyed with being called every name under the sun by its seceding irritation of a would-be nation state.
c) The moon is made of green cheese.
Let's face it: this whole business is a farce. If you want a rock solid pension, then stay with the bigger Mafia. Not the smaller one - they get eaten up.
There is a page of answers on the YES Scotland webpage but the state pension issue can be divided up into two groups those currently receiving state pension and those who will receive it in the future.
Here is the excerpt from the page
"Your entitlement to the state pension or pension credits on Day One of an independent Scotland will be the exact same as your entitlement before independence.
The Scottish Government has said that “benefits, tax credits and the state pension would continue to be paid as now in an independent Scotland. It would be for future Scottish administrations to deliver improvements to the system, designed for Scottish needs (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/11/26155932/6).”
The state pension and pension credits would be paid through the Scottish Government, rather than through the UK Department of Work and Pensions (DWP). However, you would continue to receive your payments in the same way as you do today.
At the moment, the UK welfare system is administered separately in Northern Ireland (http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/index/about_dsd.htm), so payments are made through the Northern Irish government rather than by the DWP.
If Northern Ireland is able to administer the welfare state, so too can Scotland.
In 2016 you will elect the first independent government for Scotland. Each party will put forward a manifesto, which will include proposals on pensions and the welfare state (just like happens now in UK general elections). Those manifestos could include policies like increasing the state pension or could seek to amend current UK proposals to change the state pension age. You will be able to vote for the party you think has the best proposals for you and for Scotland.
Scottish elections will decide these issues, not independence."
http://www.yesscotland.net/answers_to_your_questions_on_pensions_and_an_indep endent_scotland
What does this mean and how does it compare to what happens now. In the UK pension changes are decided by the UK government. In an Independent Scotland pension changes will be decided by a Scottish Government.
If you are asking what the value of the state pension will be when you or I reach 65 or 67 or 75 or 80 - whatever the state pension age will be when we all eventually get there then there is no answer to this in either an Independent Scotland or a UK. No one can predict this and it will depend on the manifesto of the party which you vote for in an Independent Scotland as it does in the UK.
If you are asking about what will happen to your state pension pot then the answer is "nothing". All the contributions that you have paid in, your credits from periods spent on benefits, your caring responsibilities are held at Newcastle records and will be used to calculate the state pension. If you live in another independent country now you still qualify for your state pension based on the amount of years you have paid into the system and that will continue. So in ducati's scenario of all the large numbers of Scots living and working in the rest of the UK and coming home to claim their pension I would expect that it will work just the same as it does now. Paid into the UK system? Moving to Scotland after Retirement - or France or Germany or Timbuktu for that matter - you would be entitled to your UK state pension - just like you are now.
Just now there is clearly a lot of work going on by the SNP to establish THEIR answers to the many questions people have - remember there will be other answers from other political parties - and they are currently looking at establishing the actual cost of providing pensions. Isnt this a sensible thing to do? There is much made of the leaked document yesterday and here is the exerpt which talks about pension. What the actual part pertaining to pensions says is this
"Secondly demographic pressures will increase the demand for existing public services Particularly but not exclusively in health. Spending on state pensions and public sector pensions is also driven by demographics and is set to rise. All things being equal this means that some budgets will have to rise in real terms simply to ensure that demand for exising public services can be met. We can meet some of this pressure through policy choice, improved efficiency and preventative spend. We must drive these programmes forward now to ensure that long term cost pressures can be addressed early. An important consequence of incdependence is that the responsibility for benefits and welfare will be discharged in Scotland in response to Scottish conditions and priorities. Whilst expenditure on Welfare benefits is influenced by demand especially recently when the Scottish Economy was in recession demographics is an important factor within this for Scotland given the aging profile of our populaitn. At present Hm treasury and DWP absorn the risj of growth in demind in the widest sense and therefore associated costs in future we will assume the responsibility for managing such pressure. This will imply more volatility in overall spending that at present, especially as there is little we can do from a public policy perspective in the short to medium term to manage Scotlands demographic position. Of course I recognice that volatility cuts both ways offering the possibility of cost reductions I think we should be wary however of assuming that savings can be found quickly. The fact remains that careful management will be important."
See the SNP screaming wildly that they have discovered that Scotland cant afford its pensions? Nope? There is a surprise.:roll:
The leaked document goes onto say
"I expect the working group will consider the affordability of State Pensions as its work on Fiscal Sustainability proceeds"
The Better Together People have highlighted this particular comment and the yellow Sticky that accompanies this comment trumpets - "Privately they are discussing cutting Old age pensions to pay for independence" Does anyone think that this sentence says that?
If you think that I am taking things out of context ( and better together arent) then here is the link to the whole document - complete with yellow stickies added for your enlightenment by the Better Together Campaign
http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee08022eec_u9m6vd74f.pdf#page=8&zoom=auto,121,0
The expert on Scotland Tonight last night said that it was usual for a government to produce several papers like this examining issues.This one was produced over s year ago - there have been announcements of further investment in the Oil fields and a whole year of economic predictions and evidence so this document is now clearly out of date.... in fact it is one part of a whole - like deciding whether you like the taste of something by looking at the colour of it.
You know that scaremongering is a banned word on many pro union pages. Indeed I have been banned for using that word more than once but this is exactly what this is - scaremongering. It benefits no one except the newspaper sellers. What is more worrying actually is the lack of balanced media reporting.
Yesterday The Gers results showed that Scotland is doing better than the rest of the UK - there was little or no reporting of this and here we have the story to counter that good news - thats all this is folks and Im sure many of you are wise enough to understand that.
piratelassie
08-Mar-13, 00:52
The bitter together mob have been telling us for yonks that north sea oil is running out. We were told in the 1970's oil was running out. Scare mongering. Investment in 2012 was very healthy and looks to continue. Although the oil price is volitile over the long term the income from the north sea is vast. The first 40 years revenue went to London, the next 40 years must go to Edinburgh, and 40 years could be an underestimation.
"Your entitlement to the state pension or pension credits on Day One of an independent Scotland will be the exact same as your entitlement before independence. Scottish elections will decide these issues, not independence."
"We promise you something we cannot deliver but place the caveat that it will be your fault if you do not get what we promise"
I dont understand what you mean Phil. As I said there are two issues around state benefit . You have put two sentences together which refer to these two seperate issues. firstly If you get a pension it will be the same on day one of an independent scotland in the same way as if you move to Spain, your pension remains the same on the first day you wake up in Spain. How is saying that a 'promise you cant deliver'? You have paid into the system and are getting what you are entitled to and that is not going to change. It cant change ... If you have paid into the System then you get what you are entitled to. No fudge, no lies, just a completely clear answer. This is what happens now and it will continue to happen after independence. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Because there is none in the leaked document.
The second sentence you quote comes at the end of the passage I quoted and refers to future change and says that future changes will be decided by our elected representatives. That happens now. All parties will address pensions in their manifestos for 2016 and you and I and everyone else will vote on those manifestos. If they dont deliver their promises then we can vote them out. Again this is not a promise that cant be delivered.... We WILL choose who governs an independent Scotland in 2016 and as for some sort of caveat that its our fault..... Where?
Here you have a clear and unambiguous answer to what will happen after independence to your pension. You have an explanation that future changes will be made by elected governments just like now. It is clear, unambiguous and there for all to see.
Here you are John, just for you.
Here is also a link to am article in the Scotsman yesterday... Not a paper known to be pro independence, in fact precisely the opposite. However even here it is acknowledged " However, what the document actually says is very different from the spin put on it by the No campaign. Quite the opposite in fact."
http://m.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/comment/george-kerevan-an-argument-that-simply-runs-out-of-currency-1-2825295
John Little
09-Mar-13, 19:13
I must commend The Scotsman for its balance then.
As to the author of the piece - well he would say that wouldn't he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kerevan
Exactly, Absolutely he would.... As would All the anti independence journalists say what they said.
The leaked document is there for you to read and decide whether "I expect the working group will consider the affordability of State Pensions as its work on Fiscal Sustainability proceeds"Does actually mean "Privately they are discussing cutting Old age pensions to pay for independence".
Now, im off for dinner with the rest of those of us who have been enjoying speaking to people at the exhibition today. Beers, food and good company. All buzzing after a super day showcasing what A great place Scotland is.... No doubt therell be plans for the future talked about too :) Not expecting the word "mediocre" to crop up much tho.
John Little
09-Mar-13, 19:40
I would never use the word 'mediocre' about the place my ancestors came from and where part of my heart lies.
As to the SNPs working group considering the affordability of Old Age pensions as part of the price to be paid for independence- if they are not then they are not considering their full range of options.
That would be very naive of them, would it not?
secrets in symmetry
09-Mar-13, 22:20
I would never use the word 'mediocre' about the place my ancestors came from and where part of my heart lies. The country is not mediocre - yet. Mediocrity is the aspiration of the secessionists, and of the lunatic politically-correct brigade. It must be fought tooth and nail by us - the thinking classes - or we may forever regret it.
Personally, I'm getting close to having had enough of these lunatics.
John Little
09-Mar-13, 22:28
I could never describe myself as a member of the thinking classes.
There are far too many things that I never give a thought to and have little interest in.Yet in the country of the blind the one eyed man is King; Salmond is not mediocre. he is right up there with O'Connell and Parnell.
Who can play him a set and match him?
I see he refuses to debate with Darling.
Is he feared?
secrets in symmetry
09-Mar-13, 22:49
I must commend The Scotsman for its balance then.
As to the author of the piece - well he would say that wouldn't he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_KerevanKerevan has an ego the size of a planet, and a brain the size of a pea.
secrets in symmetry
09-Mar-13, 22:51
I could never describe myself as a member of the thinking classes.
There are far too many things that I never give a thought to and have little interest in.Yet in the country of the blind the one eyed man is King; Salmond is not mediocre. he is right up there with O'Connell and Parnell.
Who can play him a set and match him?
I see he refuses to debate with Darling.
Is he feared?Shrek didn't last a game with me, never mind a set. He ran away shouting and screaming, with his minders protecting him from my barbs. He is a coward and a wimp.
John Little
09-Mar-13, 22:53
Thereby hangs a tale... I would love to hear more but I suppose confidentiality forbids elaboration?
The country is not mediocre - yet. Mediocrity is the aspiration of the secessionists, and of the lunatic politically-correct brigade. It must be fought tooth and nail by us - the thinking classes - or we may forever regret it.Personally, I'm getting close to having had enough of these lunatics.Mediocrity is the aspiration???? Where do you see that? Where do you see ANYONE who is pro independence aspire to mediocrity? The desire for an independent Scotland is about being stronger, better able to respond to the priorities of Scottish People.... The aspiration for a better, greener more socially responsible society. What is mediocre about that? You may argue that it is unattainable, you may wish for a different political point of view but to say that these aspirations are mediocre is nonsense.
John Little
09-Mar-13, 23:53
Please please please. I have asked so many people and got no answer.
The SNP does not like coal or nuclear.
How can a green Scotland build its future on OIL?
Where is the principle in that?
Where did I say I was talking about the SNP? There are other pro independence parties John. None of them aspire to mediocrity. There are a variety of aspirations, all of them about being better than we are now. If you want to understand the SNPs policies then ask them .... They have a website or you could email the first minister directly.
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 00:13
Thereby hangs a tale... I would love to hear more but I suppose confidentiality forbids elaboration?Not really. I told him what I thought of his lunatic energy policy. He didn't understand, so he ran away while shouting at me. He turned back, but his minders dragged him away before he made even more of a fool of himself.
Please please please. I have asked so many people and got no answer.
The SNP does not like coal or nuclear.
How can a green Scotland build its future on OIL?
Where is the principle in that?That's the Secessionist Principle of Hypocrisy.
It fits in well with the Secessionist Principles of Selfishness, Mendacity and Mediocrity.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 00:18
Where did I say I was talking about the SNP? There are other pro independence parties John. None of them aspire to mediocrity. There are a variety of aspirations, all of them about being better than we are now. If you want to understand the SNPs policies then ask them .... They have a website or you could email the first minister directly.
But without oil the whole pack of cards will not stand. For independence and sustaining current levels of services you need oil.
You can't just disavow it.
Without it an independent Scotland is nothing more than castles in the air. Unless you can persuade folk to accept a way of life utterly different o what they have now.
And I don't mean that in a good way.
Without oil it's all havers.
I take it then that your particular 'green' Scotland would quite happily use oil. And if oil, then why not coal, nuclear and fracking?
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 00:22
Don't forget that the secessionists would use oil revenue to fund their social programme, to build an oil fund to protect us from fluctuations in everything, to repay the nation's debt, and the interest on the debt, and pensions - all at the same time! :cool:
Merlin's magic has nothing on Shrek's conjuring tricks!
There are no limits to mendacious economics. It's even better that Monetarism! :cool:
Where did I say I was talking about the SNP? There are other pro independence parties John.
Other pro independence parties, oh do tell Squidge
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 00:26
Other pro independence parties, oh do tell SquidgeThere is the ultra right wing libertarian SDA, they make UKIP look like pussycats. There are the socialists - desperate Marxist/Leninist nutters. Then there are the Greens - desperate in different ways.
There is the ultra right wing libertarian SDA, they make UKIP look like pussycats. There are the socialists - desperate Marxist/Leninist nutters. Then there are the Greens - desperate in different ways.
Ahhh the lunatic fringe then SiS [lol]
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 00:29
Ahhh the lunatic fringe then SiS [lol]Yes the lunatic fringe and the failures - parties who have no chance in proper politics.
M Swanson
10-Mar-13, 00:33
So, which side of the political divide do you dress on SiS? They must be something special and right about everything, of course. :lol:
I Assume you are asking for my personal view.... Ok, my personal view is that we should use the oil whilst there is a need for it economically for us and globally. We should, however be working to develop better and more effective forms of energy so that we can reduce our economic reliance on oil as it WILL run out eventually. It will also ensure that more of our energy use comes from greener sources.
As far as nuclear, I would prefer to avoid it. I dont have an aversion to windmills. I know little about fracking and coal appears to be dead and buried so there you have it.
Energy is not my soapbox so you are perhaps asking the wrong person. I dont have a conflict between economically using the revenue from oil to grow a country where there is a concerted effort to develop greener ways of doing things.
Remember that if there is a Yes vote in the referendum then the existing parties - scottish Labour, the LibDems and the Conservatives will have to put together their manifestos for an Independent Scotland. So, in fact, if there is a Yes vote then ALL parties will have an energy policy for an Independent Scotland, indeed they will have policies on everything. They are perhaps even working on them now.
Make no mistake all the main parties will want to form the First Government of an Independent Scotland. So to suggest that a post referendum Government will be made up of SIS's "lunatics" is blatently not true.
It might be .... If that is what the people of Scotland vote for.... It will be up to us to decide and we will have the government we vote for and one which is accountable to us... The electorate... In a way we dont seem to have now.
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 01:20
There are rumours that Shrek plans to pay the state pension in food vouchers.
This isn't true - he plans to cut out the middle man and pay pensioners directly in neeps and carrots. Apparently, it's greener that way.
Not that I've ever seen a green carrot or a green neep....
Medieval carrots were bigger and a sort of white with a pinky purple tinge so that might be the way to go for a more cost effective carrot.
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 01:32
I've just been told in an email that I forgot tatties lol!
John Little
10-Mar-13, 09:24
If that is the answer then any Secessionist who claims to have a 'green' agenda is just jumping on the bandwagon of pious hopes put out by all the parties
Thus their Green agenda is in tatters.
That being so, there is no consistency in their energy policy, which, in refusing to use other types of energy, cuts off their noses to spite their faces. China and India grab all the coal they can get, but not from Scotland, which sits on coal. Yet you'd sell them oil!
No oil, no coherent fiscal policy, no consistent policy on Europe. Nothing but a vast tissue of contradictions, assertions and 6th form dreams. Is this serious stuff to offer in place of the United Kingdom? Is this a basis on which to question the basis of the Union?
If it were not so laughable it would almost be a con trick offered up by the Prince of grifters. So this greener, cleaner Scotland will use the oil.
Another principle gone.
Are there any left?
Oh John. I try .... I really do. I try hard to be respectful and I try hard to be fair but you are like SIS no interest in anyone's position apart from your own.
The green agenda is not an issue on which Interests me... Again if it is uour particular beef then email the parties concerned and ask them. The words you avoid are compromise, development, growth. Its not surprising these words are avoided. You who talk about sixth form dreams would have those who support the growth and development of a "green agenda" turn off the rigs overnight to meet an idealistic principle. Sixth form dreams indeed.
An Independent Scotland would grow and develop its renewable industry. An Independent Scotland would work to reduce reliance on oil, the fiscal policies are being worked on as we speak and have been for the last year. That is one thing that the leaked memo did actually prove.
Parties have a position on Europe. The SNP say in, the SDA say out , the mainstream parties have existing positions on europe which they are unlikely to change. Where is the lack of consistency?
You are committed to the UK and thats ok I have no need to change your mind and do not try to do so. You can be outraged of oxford or appalled of appleby or disgusted of devon. It matters not one iota because you have no say in this vote. It is for the people of Scotland to decide. I reply to you for my own amusement and to ensure yhat people reading this forum get a view which is not the mediocre, mendacious comments made by those who cannot even bring themselves to use the word independent.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 10:06
Then I would be obliged if you would stop touting a vision of a 'greener' Scotland after independence. What you offer is very little different to what all the other parties say.
You have no monopoly on it.
And I have no monopoly on having no interest in anyone's position other than my own. May I remind you that my own position on Independence has shifted markedly over the last year? Yours appears to have moved not a jot.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 10:17
BTW - thank you for the rather smug reminder that I get no say in the future of my country, the United Kingdom. It is indeed for the people of Scotland to decide.You wonder that I get angry? You calmly sit up there and tell me that it's none of my business?Well fiddledeedee!
I tout no position just report the position I see the parties offering. I have changed position over the last year. I have changed from undecided to decided. Im off for mothers day fun. Have a nice day :)
John Little
10-Mar-13, 10:25
That is not my perception. To me, here and on other sites you have been an active propagandist for Secession for well over a year. Not only that, but when people have said this, you then point out that you are not actually a member of the SNP and any inconsistency in their policies must be answered by them.
You answer me for your amusement? So when you trot off to the polls next year with your Polish friends to vote on the breakup of the UK, I wonder if the rest of us will find it amusing? I'm sure that the 800000 Scots living in England will find it hilarious. And those hundreds of thousands working abroad will just die laughing.
Laugh while ye can.
I, my polish friends, my german friends, my english friends, my scottish friends, my indian and pakistani friends, my welsh, israeli and french friends. All who live here in Scotland. Many of whom have varied views on Scotland's independence, some for, some against and some undecided. All, however who unlike SIS will stay here whichever way the vote goes to make the best life we can in the country we call home and where we make our lives and our childrens lives.
You john, have told me quite clearly that you consider me to be an unsuitable person to speak to because my political beliefs disagree with yours. I have no problems on talking to Anybody. You are right, I am not an SNP member, i have my views and the ways I understand the issues and that is what I do. I have clearly stated That Green issues are not my interest , I have given you my personal view and referred you to the people who can help you and yet that is still not good enough for you. Because nothing ever will be. And thats ok John but why do you insist on seeing that as a failure, I doubt that I could be more frank, what would you gave me say? If green issues are your bag then you may feel my
View is hypocritical and ignorant and thats fine it may very well be. But why on earth my suggestion that you ask those who have the answers is so frowned upon.
Sneer away John. What will be will be. After all this I will still work to improve the society I live in along with my my polish friends, my german friends, my english friends, my scottish friends, my indian and pakistani friends, my welsh, israeli and french friends and millions of other people who live here and will be voting too.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 12:07
Your referrals to 'those who have the answers' is a sort of get out of jail free card - but referring me to other Nats for credible information is no answer.
I speak to lots of people whose politics disagree with mine. What I do not like and do not regard in a friendly light are those who tell me repeatedly that the future of my country is of no concern to me - and no doubt do it with a sweet smile because there is nothing I can do about it.
Those who say they are not a member of a party yet actively spread its views and fight its corner across the Internet.
Those who pretend to be even handed and are not.
Those who divide for altruistic reasons yet when they are examined turn out to be for perceived self interest.
Those who profess high principle yet on examination look to support those who have no principles.
Propagandists who abhor mendacity but can see nothing but good in their own diaphanous creed.
Aneurin Bevan, whose name came up earlier this week, held Nationalists in contempt. I can see why.
I just am John. You judge me if you like I will not judge you. I am just me. Your opinion is of no interest or consequence to me. You call me a liar, deceitful, lacking in principles and fairness and you maybe are right. I smile sweetly. Not because you are a unionist living outwith Scotland who cannot influence the referendum but because that is your opinion ... That is all. I amuse myself in replying to posts here not for your benefit but for others who may read some of the stuff that is posted and not know there are other views. Thats it.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 13:42
Thank you for making it abundantly clear to all on this forum that voting for Secession is actually nothing whatsoever to do with being a native or natal Scot.
Thank you for making it abundantly clear that voting for Secession has nothing to do with being British. I assume then that in the event that we do get a large influx of Rumanians and Bulgarians moving into the UK next year ( because of the E U that the SNP is so anxious to stay in,) that you will be quite happy to guide these 'New Scots ' towards the correct viewpoint and direct them to the polling booths so that they too can vote for the break up of the UK?
And you see nothing wrong at all with that view regarding The British.?
Thank you for making it clear that Secession is not about nationalism at all, but Geographical choice and economic opportunism.
John Little
10-Mar-13, 13:59
Anyway Duke - I apologise for such a thread drift. Here's a wee link to put it back on track.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-yes-vote-threat-to-pensions-1-2828784
John. It is decided already that the future of Scotland will be decided by those people eligible to vote in Scotland, wherever they were born. If you live here, work here, bring your family up here then you have a say in the future of Scotland, no matter the colour of your skin, your politics, or where you were born. I dont care which way people vote. I dont tell people they MUST Vote a particular way, I tell people which way I will be voting and why and I encourage people to make their minds up and vote the way THEY choose having thought about it, listened to the arguments and made their own minds up. I dont try to belittle people or call them stupid, ignorant liars because they dont see things the way I do. I am glad to be part of this exciting time in Scotland, glad to be debating issues, glad to be participating in events which might influence the society I live in. It is fascinating and important. I am glad you are passionate about it too. The more passion the better.
secrets in symmetry
10-Mar-13, 15:38
Aneurin Bevan, whose name came up earlier this week, held Nationalists in contempt. I can see why.Indeed he did. He regarded them as scum.
Indeed he did. He regarded them as scum.Hey ho............lets see..... Are you calling ME scum Secrets? Or just making an observation? I am never sure to be honest so I decided I would just ask.
Oh and just for the record now I have time to check....
That is not my perception. To me, here and on other sites you have been an active propagandist for Secession for well over a year. Not only that, .
the first article i wrote about independence was May 2012, i posted at the end of June that I had decided that I believed the right way forward for me was to vote YES.
John it looks like Patrick Harvie also shares your concerns about the oil revenue. He is reported today as saying
“Taking control of remaining oil revenues is one thing, what we use that control for is quite another,” he said. “It’s shameless hypocrisy to set climate change targets but then to extract and burn every last drop of oil from the North Sea.“If we’re at all serious about setting a sustainable course for Scotland we must set about a more rapid transition away from fossil fuels.”
Although even he doesnt suggest stopping the drilling straight away. Interesting view though.
John Little
12-Mar-13, 10:03
You will recall that I spent several threads thinking through the matter of what the SNP offered and at the end of the process I had moved from being mildly in favour of independence, persuaded partly by your rhetoric, to being a Unionist.
That hypocrisy which you point out here was one of my main reasons for moving my stance. But the hypocrisy over oil was only one of the hypocrisies on offer.
NATO was another.
Saying they had firm legal advice on Europe was another.
The currency debacle another.
But crying up a 'greener' Scotland whilst snouting up all the petro-dollars they can get is a clear indication that the SNP (of which you are not a member) has nothing to offer on green issues that is any different to the pious platitudes of all the other parties.
I live in an auld auld hoose and I share it with loads of people. It's a big house and parts of it are crumbling and need renovation so that all who,live in it can benefit. But there's some folk who say that the window frames on their side need replacing; that the plumbing is bad and that some of the floor boards need replacing.
The same could be said of other parts of the house, but this particular area lends itself to the notion of a partition wall. So some of the people who live there have decided they want to divide the house and to have a bijou little flat to themselves: but because of the location they would also control, it seems, the stopcock and the consumer unit as well as the oil tank that supplies the central heating for the whole house.
Since more people live in other parts of the house they see this desire as rather self-seeking and opportunist, especially as many of the splitters are recent residents.
A house divided?
I prefer detached to semi.
I get it John. I get it that you dont like the policies of the SNP( of which you arent a member either) Or the possibilty of Independence from the UK. The referendum is not about voting for the SNP though. It is about voting for the sort of government and country we want Scotland to have.
The choices are either the one we have, part of the UK, westminster based with limited powers for Scotland to decide priorities and raise and spend money accordingly or an Independent Scotland with full responsibility for running the country.... Deciding priorities, raising and spending money accordingly, taking full responsibilty. Not about the SNP at all... That decision will be made in the election we have in 2016.
John Little
12-Mar-13, 13:11
Our perceptions are different.
Your view appears to be to be a micro view. The parameters you set have this thing being solely about Scotland.
As I regard myself as British and my identity as British, and my culture as British, I take a macro view.
It is about the unilateral dissolution of the UK to which it seems we have no right to object.
That decision will be made next year.
It is my hope that most people will have no problem with being Scottish and British, the two enhancing each other, any more than others have problems with being Irish and British or any other of the national and cultural identities within this old union.
You are right we have different perceptions John. Is Your view that you CANNOT be british or Irish, or Welsh, or polish or pakistani or any other nationality and think an Independent Scotland is best for Scotland? This is not about nationality or ethnicity. It is about democracy and government. I am British, I regard myself as British, I was born and grew up in Lancashire, I may not always live here. I can be british and english and still think that an Independent Scotland is the best way to go for Scotland and probably the rest of the UK too, because this is about government and democratic choices.... Not nationality or ethnicity.
People have no problem being British and living in other INdependent countries all over the world, why would being British and living in an Independent Scotland be any different than that? Scotland is and always has been, a country in its own right. Educated in England I certainly was taught that as a child and I am sure you were taught that too. The union is a political construct and therefore Scotland has the right to examine politically, whether that should be changed. That is what is happening here. The attempts to dismiss the referendum by Insisting that this is an ethnicity or nationality issue shows a lack of understanding of the process. It also is at odds with the earlier posts which talk about the people who are entitled to vote. If this was about Scotland for ethnic scots only, then I would not be supporting it. It is about who is best placed to govern Scotland, whatever their political colours, an Independent Scottish Government, elected by those people living here and accountable to those people living here or a Westminster Government which is removed from the Scottish Electorate. It is a political and democratic issue not an ethnic issue.
You absolutely have the right to object, to think differently and that is what the BetterTogether campaign is about. People dont have the right to do that unchallenged. People dont have the right to insult others, call people names or slag others off and then get huffy when their comments are challenged. That happens a lot on here across a whole range of issues from independence to memorial cruises and especially to wind power. Or maybe they do have the right .... Its not pleasant though, either to read or be involved in.
John Little
12-Mar-13, 14:10
You just don't get it do you?
If this is not to do with ethnicity or culture or nationalism then it is about geographical and economic choice.
Some of the people who happen to choose to live in an area wish to break free from the larger political entity which they are currently part of. They may not have any ties with that area at all. In origin they can be from any country in the world and moved to Scotland two years ago.
Do you really not see that the case you put forward for independence could apply to Lancashire with equal validity?
Take true ethnic/cultural Nationalism out of the equation and you are left with economic opportunism.
And that is all.
No John .... YOU dont get it. The difference between Scotland and Lancashire is that Lancashire is not a country in its own right. Lancashire did not enter into a political union with the rest of the UK and therefore has no political reason to re examine its relationship with the rest of the uk. Or do you not accept that Scotland is a country in its own right. Do you think Scotland is just North Britain, a region, a county rather than a country if you like.
People who are Nationalists of the heart, believe that Scotland should be free of its political ties to the UK because it should be, because it is Scotland. They do not say Scotland for the Scots and everyone else can get lost, THEY are not saying we will be shutting borders, leaving the EU and closing our airports. There is a political will amongst many parties to be a modern outward looking inclusive democracy. Even those who would rather see us out of the EU are talking about joining EFTA.
Of course the people who are voting have ties here... They LIVE here, work here pay taxes here, use services here. They may move elsewhere but so might every one of us, even my husband born here and living all his life so far, here. They, wherever they are from have more ties here than you do. They are investing more here than someone who doesnt live here. If you or anyone else wants to vote then come and live here. I will have a spare room come September, its yours.
For me personally ... Yes you are right it is about the ability to do better than we are doing, a better economy, a not simply about money John, but about growth, jobs, industry, innovation. A better society fairer, more supportive, more equal, less divided, the desire for everyone to have a chance to achieve their potential.. But then you know that about me. I dont keep it a secret.
Explain to me why campaigning for political change which i believe will enable Scotland - the country I live in, that I am bringing my children up in - to have a better chance of achieving those things makes me a bad person, hypocritical, ignorant, stupid, a liar, short sighted, a traitor, scum, an "unsuitable person". All adjectives that have been applied to posters making the case for Independence on this forum.
John Little
12-Mar-13, 16:01
We are not talking of nationalism here. Scotland is a nation within a larger country. Before 1707 Scotland was independent- though before that time it would more accurately be described as two countries since north of the Highland line the culture, language and religion had little in common with anything to the south of it. The north was forced into conformity.
Read your post again.
You are putting forward reasons of geographical choice and economic gain. Not of history, culture, blood, religion.
In denying the ethnic nature of historic Scottish Nationalism you merely underscore the differences between it and what you want.
You are attempting an agenda which taps into and masquerades as Nationalism, but which in fact is not. You are simply using the word as a propaganda lever to forge an alliance between historic Braveheart Nationalism and your own brave new world of pious aspiration, which, I do assure you, is pretty much the aspirations you will find in every part of the UK. An alliance between historic Nationalism and people like yourself who are Secessionists and whose motives appear as simply venal.
Gain at the expense of the rest of us.
Moreover you decry what Scotland is as mediocre and imply that as part of the UK it is more or less the pits and could be a great deal better if split away. Scotland is not mediocre. There are problems in Scotland as in other places in the UK but to denigrate it as mediocre because of these is an over reaction.
Many of these problems can be very well addressed with Devo-Max.
I do not think anyone would say the Union is perfect - but at least Scotland has a parliament. England does not.
You decry the Union with assertions and erect a fantasy vision for people to buy into in support of these assertions.
When this agenda is exposed in the Press as false, or hypocrisy exposed in all the papers, or lies revealed such as over Europe, or the currency, you defend it.
You are no friend to the United Kingdom - that is pellucidly clear. You are an enemy to it and wish to destroy it.
And you do not care who votes for it, except that you have a perverse joy that the rest of the UK will get no say in it.
Then you get upset because I 'unfriended' you on Facebook because I found what you were saying an unsuitable thing for me to be looking at when I logged into it.
I do not want that stuff on my Facebook page thank you very much. It's not an appropriate place in my view. That's my page for my stuff.
I have never called you a bad person.
I have called the SNP 'hypocritical' over their stance on fossil fuel - and so they are.
I have asked if there are any principles that the SNP are prepared to make a stand on - and got no answer.
I called Piratelassie either a liar or ignorant because that is the choice I have. Why else did she post that guff about 79? It was either one or the other and there was no opinion involved.
What do you call someone who wishes to destroy the country they live in?
Or someone who acts as an apologist for a bunch of charlatans who try to subvert their country's government with little more than snake oil and promises of goodies for all? And writes polemics in support of this bunch?
John Little
12-Mar-13, 16:06
Tell you what.
I'll make you an offer.
You stop posting stuff about the referendum, the SNP, the breakup of the Union etc on here, and so will I.
We would cancel each other out, make the boards a bit more peaceful, removing your propaganda and mine.
No matter what anyone else says, we do not comment.
Deal or no deal?
Yawn.....its handbags at dawn in the playground again, put each other on ignore, I find that helps a lot.........simples
John Little
12-Mar-13, 17:11
Bah humbug.
MerlinScot
12-Mar-13, 18:59
I, my polish friends, my german friends, my english friends, my scottish friends, my indian and pakistani friends, my welsh, israeli and french friends. All who live here in Scotland. Many of whom have varied views on Scotland's independence, some for, some against and some undecided. All, however who unlike SIS will stay here whichever way the vote goes to make the best life we can in the country we call home and where we make our lives and our childrens lives. OMG, I am in your list. The first train to London, NOW!! Squidge when you post this stuff is utterly creepy. I don't think you realize you are not making a favour to yourself or your cause either. If anything, if I was undecided before reading your post, now I know that whether I will be in Scotland or not, I won't go to vote at all.
cptdodger
12-Mar-13, 20:47
OMG, I am in your list. The first train to London, NOW!! Squidge when you post this stuff is utterly creepy. I don't think you realize you are not making a favour to yourself or your cause either. If anything, if I was undecided before reading your post, now I know that whether I will be in Scotland or not, I won't go to vote at all.
I'm not quite sure whether you are calling Squidge or the post "utterly creepy", either way, that's a bit harsh. I am Scottish, and have never hidden the fact that I will never vote for Independence, that is my right, as it will be anybody's right to vote (as long as they are resident in Scotland at the time) whichever way they want. I cannot see why you have taken offence at Squidge mentioning where her friends are originally from.
Yawn.....its handbags at dawn in the playground again, put each other on ignore, I find that helps a lot.........simples i dont have a handbag big enough to do hangbags at Dawn since I left mine on the top of the car and drove off last week Golach!!!! :~(
John Little
12-Mar-13, 22:04
Well it's a good offer and if you accept it then I shall post no more on these matters.I am really hoping that I don't get a reply that is a mashed up regurgitation of more of the same.
Chasing ones tails gets nowhere.
But in case you do accept my offer I'd better post this link now because I would not be able to do it later.
http://www.ippr.org/juncture/171/9123/unionism--a-very-scottish-idea
Its a good article.
If you click for the full article.at the bottom you get a much better case for the Union.
The point about not getting rid of it without overwhelming cause is well made.
Finally
I have never said Scotland is mediocre, in fact I have been actively saying it ISNT mediocre all weekend.
I have never said or inferred that the UK was a bad place to be, I like it but I think Scotland can do better as an Independent Scotland and I actually think that would benefit the rest of the uk too.
Devo Max? Like Westminster gave us the choice to choose that.... its Independence or the union - there is no possibility of Devo max even if there is a NO vote.
I DO care who votes in the referendum - I care that the people who live here, make their lives here, bring their children up here, work here, own homes here have the opportunity to vote. I am not joyful that people who live elsewhere cant vote - I never expected that they would and dont understand why someone would think it is reasonable that a vote about the political status of a "nation" should be decided by 63 million people who dont live in said nation and not the 5 million who do.
I am not an enemy to the UK except in your head. I will be here come what may, independence or not I will work, as I have done over the last however many years for a way to achieve what I beleive is important.
As for this
Tell you what.
I'll make you an offer.
You stop posting stuff about the referendum, the SNP, the breakup of the Union etc on here, and so will I.
We would cancel each other out, make the boards a bit more peaceful, removing your propaganda and mine.
No matter what anyone else says, we do not comment.
Deal or no deal?
Absolutely No Deal. I havent actually started a thread about the referendum, the SNP, or even INDEPENDENCE since August last year and I have no particular desire to do so but I WILL respond to posts and threads about the subject if I so choose. I have posted here since 2002 and I will continue to do so as long as it amuses me. I suggest John you follow golach's suggestion if my posts are a problem to you. Your posts are not a problem to me - I said it is nice to see you back and I meant it. However this is the most important political decision we have faced in years and I WILL be a part of the debate.
OMG, I am in your list. The first train to London, NOW!! Squidge when you post this stuff is utterly creepy. I don't think you realize you are not making a favour to yourself or your cause either. If anything, if I was undecided before reading your post, now I know that whether I will be in Scotland or not, I won't go to vote at all.
Merlinscot, you are not in my list - I have no idea who you are or where you are or where you have come from and I dont really care either. Let me paraphrase what I said just so as we are clear what you are defining as creepy..
I have friends all over Scotland who come from lots of different countries. Some of them support Independence, some of them dont and some are undecided. None of them are planning to leave scotland if the vote doesnt go their way. They will stay and keep doing the best they can to make Scotland the best place it can be for themselves and their children and the rest of society
Merlinscot I dont care which way you vote - you will vote or not as you choose. You will leave or not as you choose. You will read my posts or not as you choose. I dont mind either way. I hope that you will look up the answers for yourself and decide which way to vote for yourself. I have no wish to tell you how to vote. I just post my opinions and try to give an opposing view to the anti independence posts that appear here time and again. If you decide not to vote at all then so be it - it makes no difference to me - I wont be sending you private messages urging you to change your mind or even standing outside your front door with a leaflet lol. I can however be found on occasional mornings sipping a coffee in Costa or Starbucks if you want to really see how creepy :eek: I really am. PM me for an appointment - I would hate to disappoint you and just turn up as myself
John Little
12-Mar-13, 22:24
It wasn't you that said this then?
"Mediocrity, mendacity and economic austerity is where we are now as part of the Uk. Mediocre government who are rubbishing the lives of millions of hard working lower earners, disabled and poor people. "
You appear to be saying that Scotland is mediocre as part of the Union.
Doesn't look that way to me.
Ooooooh Yes lol I did - but you will also see that I said
"There is nothing mediocre here"
"Mediocrity???? Where? "
"The Gers results show Scotland is doing better than the rest of the UK, the Herald runs an article today about a new oil boom, there is no evidence that businesses are failing to invest in Scotland because of fears over Independence, the news yesterday was that it was possible that Scotland would be the 3 rd richest country in the EU.
Sooooooo. Lets see, your favourite words last night would seem to apply to your posts.... Mediocre. Mendacious nonsense"
This is what happens when you are typing on your iphone in the dark in a hotel room waiting for everyone to wake up. You have to go back and edit every post as it doesnt put paragraphs in and I cant figure out why not. Its confusing at the best of times and especially so after a day of being Lady Macdonald and performing to a crowd in a freezing AECC on concrete floors - my poor feet and then having a RUBBISH nights sleep.
My intention was to say - "Mediocrity. mendacity and economic austerity is where we are if this government has its way as part of the UK.
A Mediocre Government who are rubbishing the lives of millions of hard working lower earners, disabled and poor people."
Hope that has clarifies things for you!
John Little
12-Mar-13, 22:48
Nonetheless my mediocre and mendacious nonsense knows that the SNP position over fossil fuels is hypocrisy.
And your desire for economic advantage in the 3rd richest country in Europe, in my mendacious and mediocre interpretation still looks like self interest and money grabbing.
If the money is there that is.
And my mendacious nonsense sees that RBS is still making losses.
Did you read that mendacious and mediocre article by that Professor?
I know he's only a lying academic, but it's quite interesting.
John Little
12-Mar-13, 22:55
Btw I have had a word with Duke. He's a good bloke and doesn't mind we hijacked his thread.
I will read it tomorrow - I have to say it isnt looking promising "evoking the Scottish heroes of the late 13th and early 14th century wars of independence, William Wallace and Robert the Bruce. " I havent seen Wallace and Bruce referenced in any serious discussion on the referendum since I started looking at this stuff. But I will give your recommendation the benefit of a serious read. I am too tired tonight and I have been watching the Barcelona v AC Milan Match as well as posting on here which is ok for this stuff but not for serious reading.
Cheers Duke!
John Little
13-Mar-13, 17:11
I take it that you are happy about this one too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9925784/Thousands-of-Scottish-servicemen-denied-vote-in-independence-referendum.html
cptdodger
13-Mar-13, 17:43
I take it that you are happy about this one too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9925784/Thousands-of-Scottish-servicemen-denied-vote-in-independence-referendum.html
Oh dear, that's not right is it ? These men and women, who fight, and unfortunately in some cases die for their country, have no say as to where they are posted. It makes you wonder what Nicola Sturgeon is scared of, denying thousands of people the vote.
John Little
13-Mar-13, 17:54
No. It's not right.
John Little
13-Mar-13, 17:59
I humbly apologise for the following doggerel and especially to Tubthumper, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to fasten, the true poet of the Org. And to the memory of Andy Stewart... But when one is moved to verse, however bad...
There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
There was non bolder, with good broad shoulder
He's fought in many a fray, and fought and won.
He's seen the glory, and told the story
Of battles glorious, and deeds victorious
But now he's sighing, his heart is crying
To leave these green hills of Tyrol
Chorus
Because these green hills are not highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green foreign hills may be
They are not the hills of home
And now this soldier, this Scottish soldier
Who wandered far away, and soldiered far away
Sees leaves are falling, and folks are voting
To quit the wicked auld UK
Chorus
And he’s not happy – the poor wee chappie-
He’s lost his vote away in that far land
He's called his piper his trusty piper
And bade him sound a lay, A pi-broch sad to play
The SNP it’s sad to say have ta’en his rights away
He’ll have no say in Scotland’s play.
Chorus
And so this soldier, this Scottish soldier
Thinks why some Pole can vote
on who the Nats all dote, and why he can’t.
And on a hillside, a Scottish hillside
You'll see a piper play his soldier home
Chorus
It’s Drumnadrochit - But he won’t know it
because its turned to … pink
and there’s a funny stink – of oil around
Because in Brigadoon - all sing the Nat’s old round
And little bunnies bound
round fluffy Thurso town
Because these green hills may be highland hills,
Or the island hills, they're not my land's hills
And fair as these green Scots hills may be
They have naught to do with me
- thanks to the SNP.
John Little
13-Mar-13, 18:03
I await the spin, the reinterpretation, the excuses, the assertions that it ain't so.
As the night follows the day...
"ime - Phrase
00:35:35 Shout you're oppressed! The World is wrong. You are right!
00:35:38 If you shriek it loud enough and often enough, they'll believe you.
00:35:42 Above all, use their free speech and their free press to destroy them."
I take it that you are happy about this one too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9925784/Thousands-of-Scottish-servicemen-denied-vote-in-independence-referendum.html
I dont really get understand this issue at all. I would not be happy for servicemen or women to be denied a vote but surprise surprise - they arent. It is simply not true to say that armed forces personnel are being denied the opportunity to vote in the Referendum.
This is why.
Armed Forces personnel can register to vote in Scotland. They have a choice. They can either register as do you or I or they can register for a Service vote. If they register for a service vote then they can register anywhere else in the UK and it is their choice. They can either use an address they live at when they are in Scotland or their last address.
They have the choice it is THEIR choice which they do. So my friend who is in the RAF and based outside london is registered to vote in Nairn because that is where
her husband lives. Prior to that when she was in Germany she and her husband were registered to vote in Dunfermline cos that is where her parents live. If she had no address to use then she could register with her last address in Scotland. They have plenty of time to register for the vote in 2014. this system is in place precisely to ensure that armed forces personnel are NOT denied their vote. Once registered it last for five years I think although it can be cancelled at any time and they will be entitled to vote either in person if they happen to be there or by proxy or by postal vote.
There is no need for "special measures" because the law allows this already whereas the law does not allow 16/17 year olds to vote just now so they need special measures.
Here are the supporting links
http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register_to_vote/armed_forces.aspx
You can follow the links to the see the form but if you would rather not then here is the relevant extract
Please guve the full UK
address where you would
like to register. This can be:
the address where you or your spouse or civil
partner are currently living
where you would be living if you were not in
the Armed Forces
if you cannot say where you would be living, give
your last UK address before you took up the post
John Little
13-Mar-13, 18:15
I believe that the fuss is because those forms apply to Parliamentary elections; but not to the referendum... it's not a 'UK referendum" you see - it's not run by the UK government...
There also seems to be a bit of unease about as to 16 year old having the right to vote - but not to drink or smoke.
MerlinScot
13-Mar-13, 18:34
I have friends all over Scotland who come from lots of different countries. Some of them support Independence, some of them dont and some are undecided. None of them are planning to leave scotland if the vote doesnt go their way. They will stay and keep doing the best they can to make Scotland the best place it can be for themselves and their children and the rest of society
I hope that you will look up the answers for yourself and decide which way to vote for yourself. I have no wish to tell you how to vote. I just post my opinions and try to give an opposing view to the anti independence posts that appear here time and again. If you decide not to vote at all then so be it - it makes no difference to me - I wont be sending you private messages urging you to change your mind or even standing outside your front door with a leaflet lol. I can however be found on occasional mornings sipping a coffee in Costa or Starbucks if you want to really see how creepy :eek: I really am. PM me for an appointment - I would hate to disappoint you and just turn up as myself
I don't want to offend you saying this but your German/Dutch/Pakistani/etc friends know as well as me that we can make it anywhere. I doubt that if things go bad any of your friends will stay here. So pardon my bluntness but you seem naive in your reasoning.
When you are a foreigner that severed the ties with the mother country, any place is better, that is the first reason why we left. So if Scotland sinks, you won't see any of your friends staying. Many of my foreign friends will vote no. To be honest, I'd prefer not to vote at all instead of No or Yes, it is more sensible. I feel that after years here I am still a guest. And if Scots want independence, they can have it. I just would prefer not to help the balance either way.
Well thanks for the offer but 110 miles for a coffee is a bit expensive :cool:
Sorry if this thread was hijacked :roll:
They apply to local elections too and so will apply to the referendum because the only difference is the 16/17 year olds. If you are on an Electoral register in Inverness then you can vote in all the elections that take place in Inverness - as a service voter you are registered to vote in the town you register in - so register here and vote here for local and general elections.
You are right some people are not happy that 16/17 year olds can vote because they are not able to drink or smoke - however they are eligible to join the armed forces and they do pay tax if they work and they can get married and they can be a tennant and they can make adult decisions. As this referendum is in 2014 but Independence will take place in 2016 then all the 16/17 year olds who are entitled to vote in the referendum are likely to be 18 in the year independence is granted.
Im happy enough to see them get a vote. The more we encourage young people to think about politics the better
John Little
13-Mar-13, 18:40
That is your assertion.
It is not necessarily correct.
The Referendum on Scottish Independence is a special case, run by the Scottish government and its provisions written into a special act of that government. If it is not clearly written in that the Scottish soldiers posted abroad have the vote then that is in doubt.
If you google this matter then you will find it right across the media.
That's an awful lot of intelligent people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick ain't it?
Anyway, by joining the forces did not servicemen and women accept the fact that they might be posted abroad and quit Scotland?
According to your previous logic it should be right that they lose the vote by virtue of making such a choice...
I don't want to offend you saying this but your German/Dutch/Pakistani/etc friends know as well as me that we can make it anywhere. I doubt that if things go bad any of your friends will stay here. So pardon my bluntness but you seem naive in your reasoning.
Many of my foreign friends have young children and are settled here with Jobs and some with Scottish husbands or wives so may very well be more settled here than if they were single.
When you are a foreigner that severed the ties with the mother country, any place is better, that is the first reason why we left. So if Scotland sinks, you won't see any of your friends staying. Many of my foreign friends will vote no. To be honest, I'd prefer not to vote at all instead of No or Yes, it is more sensible. I feel that after years here I am still a guest. And if Scots want independence, they can have it. I just would prefer not to help the balance either way.
Many of mine will vote No too - I was not however talking about whether Scotland "sinks" but whether the vote is yes or no - SIS would leave if the vote was yes - Not a single one of my friends have said they would leave if the vote was yes.
Well thanks for the offer but 110 miles for a coffee is a bit expensive :cool:
Well Ill tell you what Ill give you a shout when Im up the road then lol
That is your assertion.
It is not necessarily correct. Which bit - can you show me evidence that it is wrong? I have looked and cant find any. I found this though
Who gets to vote?
The franchise in a Scottish independence referendum will be largely the same as for a Scottish Parliament and council elections, with the addition of lowering the voting age from 18 to 16.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13326310
And I gave you a link to the law as it stands - give up John this one is nonsense.
Anyway, by joining the forces did not servicemen and women accept the fact that they might be posted abroad and quit Scotland?
According to your previous logic it should be right that they lose the vote by virtue of making such a choice... Thats why there are special rules for service men and women already in place.
:roll:
John Little
13-Mar-13, 18:47
Well I suggest that we put this one on ice.
Dozens of media outlets say it is so.
Squidge says it's not.
Give up? On what? It ain't me saying this stuff - have a google.
So let's just see how pans out in the next day or so.
OK?
Actually I revise part of this - my Google search tells me that this story is across 30 news sources but when I click the link it gives me 3. Never mind - let's see what tomorrow brings.
If someone can tell me how to reset my Google filters to show all 30 before I suss it out, then I'd be grateful for the saved time and your help.
secrets in symmetry
14-Mar-13, 00:02
I don't want to offend you saying this but your German/Dutch/Pakistani/etc friends know as well as me that we can make it anywhere. I doubt that if things go bad any of your friends will stay here. So pardon my bluntness but you seem naive in your reasoning.
When you are a foreigner that severed the ties with the mother country, any place is better, that is the first reason why we left. So if Scotland sinks, you won't see any of your friends staying. Many of my foreign friends will vote no. To be honest, I'd prefer not to vote at all instead of No or Yes, it is more sensible. I feel that after years here I am still a guest. And if Scots want independence, they can have it. I just would prefer not to help the balance either way.
Well thanks for the offer but 110 miles for a coffee is a bit expensive :cool:
Sorry if this thread was hijacked :roll:Leaving your home country is hard the first time. It gets easier after that. :cool:
The Scottish problem is the pursuit of mediocrity via deluded secessionist insanity.
Squidge says it's not.How about you rephrase that John to "Squidge has graciously pointed me in the direction of the evidence from the Electoral Commissions pages that show this story is not true" :)
This is not about what I say, personally, it is about what the LAW says about service personnel voting. It is not opinion it is FACT. You can also read the Franchise Bill itself here
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/60464.aspx and explanatory notes here http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Bills/Scottish%20Independence%20Referendum%20Franchise%2 0Bill/b24s4-introd-en.pdf
These things are not MY opinion they are facts. You might wonder why if I can find all these facts in ten minutes, the journalist who wrote the story in the Telegraph couldnt.... But I am sure they tried, after all it was reported across dozens of media outlets and you would expect them all to be telling the truth. Wouldn't you?
John Little
14-Mar-13, 09:16
Guardian has it wrong too then?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/mar/13/scottish-independence-referendum-votes
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/mar/13/scottish-independence-referendum-votes)Underneath it says 'all 37 news outlets' - why can't I get them?
Reading through your link as to who is entitled to vote, it says this;
"...the person is resident in the electoral area the register applies to (or able to use a service declaration or a declaration of local connection to register there);"
Now what of a young single person who left home some years ago and joined a Scottish Regiment?
They have been living in barracks and have been entitled to vote at that address.
Now they have been shipped out to Afghanistan and someone else is in those barracks so they are no longer at that address?
Alternatively it seems that they could declare a local connection. But what if they have none? What if their parents have died?
And they are certainly not resident at their parents' home anyway.
I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that a number of soldiers cannot vote by default like you can, but have to actively opt in.
And the process of opting in does not necessarily give them the vote.
We are probably not talking of many people here, but it seems to me that the question is not quite so simple as you think.
Or perhaps the Guardian and the Telegraph do have it wrong and I am being misinformed.
The guardian report says, "So all UK and EU citizens resident in Scotland will be allowed to vote, along with armed service personnel registered to vote at a Scottish address."What they appear to be saying is that Soldiers posted away from home who do not or choose not to register in Scotland will not be allowed to vote. That is a bit different from saying soldiers are being DENIED a vote. Anyone who isnt registered, including 16/17 year olds wont be allowed to vote. The facts are that as a Member of the armed forces you are entitled to vote in the Scottish referendum. To excercise your right you are given a special sort of vote called a service vote which gives you the right to register at an address in Scotland. If a firces member chooses not to excercise that right, or prefers to register elsewhere then that is up to them. There is nothing in place to deny them the right to vote. If this is part of your opinion that the whole of the UK should vote then that is understandable but to say that armed forces personnel arr being DENIED the opportunity to vote by the Scottish Government is not true.
The form and guidance states your young soldier can use the address they last lived at in Scotland. I cant vote by default John, i too and you and everyone else have to fill a form in and make a declaration.
I am not making this up John its there in black and white.
I certainly hope that there is a concerted effort to ensure that people know how to register and excercise their right to vote but to say that there is any attempt to deny people in the services that right is nonsense.
John Little
14-Mar-13, 09:45
Please read my addition above.
So anyway....if you have paid your stamp all your life into the UK (and everyone knows) there is no investment involved, the money you pay in today is spent today. The whole UK had the benefit of the contribution but Scotland will have to pay the benefit. This applies to all benefits come to think of it. So we go from the working element of about 60 million people behind your pension to about 5 or 6 million. How is that going to be better?
John Little
14-Mar-13, 09:57
Okay - fair enough. I just asked the Guardian blogger this;
"On the soldiers issue, the provisions set out for a referendum appear to state that soldiers can register to vote that their last address in Scotland. If this is so I would be glad if someone could explain which soldiers are being denied the right to vote. I'm a bit slow I fear..."
The reply should be interesting.
As you may see, no response yet...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/mar/13/scottish-independence-referendum-votes?commentpage=1
I certainly hope that there is a concerted effort to ensure that people know how to register and excercise their right to vote but to say that there is any attempt to deny people in the services that right is nonsense.
Not too sure if its nonsense Squidge, it smacks to me of Snp skullduggery, but I am glad to see that it will be down to the parents of the bairns aged 16 to register for them to vote, and not the bairns themselves. If I had any 16 year old's living in my abode, I will not be adding them to the Electoral Register.
John, You said in an earlier post that we would see how it pans out.... Ill tell you exactly what will happen.... Its what happened last week with the stushie over the leaked document which showed nothing that the better together campaign said it showed, it happened with the stushie a few months ago about passports, big headlines people stirred up to outrage over something which is not true ... Clearly and easily evidenced as not true. It splashes for a couple of days, then it goes quiet and then weeks or months later it reappears to disguise something else that is happening and it needs to be refuted all over again. But hey ho....
Golach, you are right skulduggery indeed ... But whose? You think the SNP, but how can that be? This is UK Legislation, an Edinburgh Agreement and clearly defined and publicised ways of ensuring that those entitled to vote and register. I wonder at the skulduggery that allows a newspaper to publish something which is not true, giving information out which can be refuted by any numpty with a keyboard and ten minutes to search.
Its exhausting and such a waste of time. There are many issues to discuss and be concerned about in this referendum but this should not be one of them and only IS one of them because of lies posted in some dreadful tory rag!!!
John Little
14-Mar-13, 15:19
The Guardian and the Telegraph do not exactly sing from the same hymn-sheet though - do they?
I will await his reply before giving it stushie status.
I came across this group today;
https://www.facebook.com/BritishUnity
There's a lively discussion on this very issue. If it's a stushie then it's been very effective, for a lot of folk seem to believe it.
The Guardian and the Telegraph do not exactly sing from the same hymn-sheet though - do they?
I will await his reply before giving it stushie status. I rather think you will be waiting for a wee while!
I came across this group today;
https://www.facebook.com/BritishUnity
There's a lively discussion on this very issue. If it's a stushie then it's been very effective, for a lot of folk seem to believe it.
Well then John it MUST be true - if British Unity think so:roll:. After all the Actual legislative Bill and the Electoral Commission are far far less credible than a facebook page which bans people at the drop of a dissenting voice. Surely you are not suggesting this page is moe credible than the facts that I have pointed out to you.
John Little
14-Mar-13, 22:00
No - I do not believe that I suggested any such thing.
I merely observe that quite a few people seem to think the same thing.
Something to do with smoke and fires.
I would have hoped/thought that post Leveson, media outlets like the Telegraph and the Guardian would have thought carefully before publishing false information.
The Guardian guy has not replied.
I may ask the Telegraph...
John Little
14-Mar-13, 22:07
I have renewed my enquiry as follows;
"It's been a business day since I made my enquiry and had no reply. Unless there are soldiers who cannot vote in the referendum then both the Telegraph and the Guardian have published information which is false, but which has been believed by many people, including me. Would somebody please tell me which soldiers have lost their right to vote in the referendum because they have been posted abroad?
If it turns out that there are no soldiers who have lost their votes then I must, in all conscience, complain to the Press Complaints Commission.
Which soldiers are these?"
I will do it too.
No - I do not believe that I suggested any such thing.
I merely observe that quite a few people seem to think the same thing.
Something to do with smoke and fires.
Phew Thank goodness for that!!!! And John There you have in a nutshell the reason why I wont agree to stop posting on Independence. This happens a lot and it does my head in.
I would have hoped/thought that post Leveson, media outlets like the Telegraph and the Guardian would have thought carefully before publishing false information.
We have a saying where I come from John - it goes - Well, you know what thought did - Followed a muck cart and thought it was a wedding.:lol:
As for the Press complaints Commission - well John Bless you and Good Luck.
John Little
14-Mar-13, 22:29
I have just posted this on 'Better Together'
As a Unionist the idea of soldiers being denied a vote appalled me. However, having read the rules for the referendum it appears that all Scottish soldiers serving abroad can actually register to vote by giving their last address in Scotland. If this is so, then the information given out in both the Telegraph and the Guardian is false. As a Unionist it also strains my patience. If we are to make a case for the Union, may we please base it on truth and not on disinformation designed to stir up gratuitous indignation about the other guys? It merely makes us look ill informed and as mendacious as anything put out by the Nationalists. I may be wrong and I would be glad if anyone could lighten my darkness by telling me which Svottish soldiers cannot register for a vote. But unless someone can then i have to say that as a Unionist, Unionist propaganda makes me far more angry than Nat propaganda. We do not need to tell lies.
I hope Scottish people don't mind too much about typos. I would not mind if I were Svottish... what's in a name?
I have also just posted this on the Telegraph site.
"Unless there are soldiers who cannot vote in the referendum then both the Telegraph and the Guardian have published information which is false, but which has been believed by many people, including me. Would somebody please tell me which soldiers have lost their right to vote in the referendum because they have been posted abroad? I have read the conditions for the referendum and it seems that all Scottish soldiers serving abroad are entitled to a postal vote based on their last address in Scotland. I may be entirely wrong but I would be very grateful indeed if someone could tell me which soldiers cannot vote."
I'm as mad as hell about this and unless someone can identify disenfranchised soldiers I shall be using this:
http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html
MerlinScot
14-Mar-13, 23:35
Many of my foreign friends have young children and are settled here with Jobs and some with Scottish husbands or wives so may very well be more settled here than if they were single.
My husband is Scottish and with a permanent job in Caithness, so I guess you got that wrong squidge LOL
It is not a matter of being a foreigner or not, in this case. You always mention people from abroad trying to make your cause appear as 'worthy', like... I don't know, do foreigners validate your point of view more than some Scots?
In another post you were mentioning a party o coffee/tea morning with friends holding different nationalities....
I think that the SNP propaganda appeals more to some Scots (whether for heritage or historical reasons) than to foreigners. Cut the tuition fees in two or off, take away some advantages and benefits to Eu citizens and you see where they will all go... They just migrate elsewhere. They have no ties here, meaning to the land itself. Families can be moved, jobs can be found again.
For instance, I have been a globetrotter in my life and I met loads of Scots abroad. If Salmond wanted to score a yes at the referendum he should have allowed Scottish expats to vote.. You should see how patriotic they are... A lot more than the ones living here ;)
cptdodger
14-Mar-13, 23:48
I have just posted this on 'Better Together'
As a Unionist the idea of soldiers being denied a vote appalled me. However, having read the rules for the referendum it appears that all Scottish soldiers serving abroad can actually register to vote by giving their last address in Scotland. If this is so, then the information given out in both the Telegraph and the Guardian is false. As a Unionist it also strains my patience. If we are to make a case for the Union, may we please base it on truth and not on disinformation designed to stir up gratuitous indignation about the other guys? It merely makes us look ill informed and as mendacious as anything put out by the Nationalists. I may be wrong and I would be glad if anyone could lighten my darkness by telling me which Svottish soldiers cannot register for a vote. But unless someone can then i have to say that as a Unionist, Unionist propaganda makes me far more angry than Nat propaganda. We do not need to tell lies.
I hope Scottish people don't mind too much about typos. I would not mind if I were Svottish... what's in a name?
I have also just posted this on the Telegraph site.
"Unless there are soldiers who cannot vote in the referendum then both the Telegraph and the Guardian have published information which is false, but which has been believed by many people, including me. Would somebody please tell me which soldiers have lost their right to vote in the referendum because they have been posted abroad? I have read the conditions for the referendum and it seems that all Scottish soldiers serving abroad are entitled to a postal vote based on their last address in Scotland. I may be entirely wrong but I would be very grateful indeed if someone could tell me which soldiers cannot vote."
I'm as mad as hell about this and unless someone can identify disenfranchised soldiers I shall be using this:
http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html
Being Scottish, I have never been in doubt, that I will vote no to Independence. Like you John, it annoys the life out of me when newspapers get it so wrong. And I do also wonder what the point of the Leveson inquiry was in aid of, going by the news reports (on BBC ) today. I copied this from the BBC News website -
"Up to 30 June 2012, the last set of published costs, the inquiry had cost £3.9m. An inquiry spokesman has estimated that the overall cost of the inquiry so far could reach £5.6m."
All that money, and for what? so the newspapers can just continue in the same vein as before - just write anything they want for the shock value.
My husband is Scottish and with a permanent job in Caithness, so I guess you got that wrong squidge LOL
It is not a matter of being a foreigner or not, in this case. You always mention people from abroad trying to make your cause appear as 'worthy', like... I don't know, do foreigners validate your point of view more than some Scots?
In another post you were mentioning a party o coffee/tea morning with friends holding different nationalities....
Lol MerlinScot - I didnt get anything wrong - I was talking about MY friends - the people that I know. I have no idea who you are - you might be a bloke in Edinburgh or Newcastle or wherever. I know nothing about YOU and I dont pretend to do so. No one I know is saying they will move if the YES campaign is successful. Are you? Are you saying that if the Scottish electorate votes YES in Autumn 2014 you will pack your bags and move?
Oooooooooooh just had a thought maybe you are Mrs Secrets in Symmetry lol lol lol... He could be your Scottish Husband [lol] EVERYONE will be jealous!!!!:roll:
You are right I have mentioned the different nationalities that are my friends. Its usually in response to the suggestion that people who come from foreign shores shouldnt be allowed to vote in the referendum or in response to comments that suggest that I only have "nationalist Scottish" friends. Thats all. I know fine well that families can be moved, jobs found - I did exactly that twice in my life so far.
Maybe if Salmond wanted to "score YES" or skew the referendum then he might have added the scottish expats to the voting list but the referendum was always intended to be for the people of Scotland to decide - whichever way they choose - that is it.
secrets in symmetry
14-Mar-13, 23:58
OMG, I am in your list. The first train to London, NOW!! Squidge when you post this stuff is utterly creepy. I don't think you realize you are not making a favour to yourself or your cause either. If anything, if I was undecided before reading your post, now I know that whether I will be in Scotland or not, I won't go to vote at all.I'm also considering not voting - I don't want to be associated with a country that would consider committing national suicide - even if it is (or was) my own one.
I might even leave before the eckerendum if I can get a decent job in another country - a proper country lol!
Maybe if Salmond wanted to "score YES" or skew the referendum then he might have added the scottish expats to the voting list but the referendum was always intended to be for the people of Scotland to decide - whichever way they choose - that is it.
Eck wants to score votes and "skrew" the referendum by bringing bairns into the equation, no other reason.
secrets in symmetry
15-Mar-13, 00:07
Eck wants to score votes and "skrew" the referendum by bringing bairns into the equation, no other reason.Yes - there's no limit to his opportunism, and there are no limits to the lies he tells when he denies the true reasons for giving the vote to bairns.
From John's link to the Guardian
The Scottish National party has been consistent in its policy on votes for 16 and 17 year olds - it has them for Crofting commission votes and some health board elections.
Willie Rennie said yesterday
Giving sixteen and seventeen year olds the vote in the independence referendum is an important step in our efforts to build a fairer society. Scottish Liberal Democrats will be proud to support this move and hope that it will open the door to wider reform across the UK. in response to the bill. As an anti independence party the LibDems clearly dont think that it will skew the referendum.
Professor Vernon Bogdanor said
he Scottish Parliament, which has an SNP majority, is likely to give 16-year-olds the vote since it is SNP policy that the franchise should be lowered to 16 for all elections and referendums. seems like its been around for a while then....
In fact I found that it appears to have become SNP policy for 16/17 year olds to be given the vote when it was democratically voted for by an annual conference of SNP delegates – while Nicola Sturgeon was Vice Convenor Youth Affairs in the party sometime between 1986 and 1992 when both Gordon Wilson and Alex Salmond were leading the party. Hardly opportunistic :roll:. I am surprised you dont know this Golach. Wherever they have had the power to introduce voting rights for 16/17 year olds they have done so - see the first quote.
You may agree or disagree however 16/17 year olds WILL vote in the referendum and that has been decided - there are around 4 million registered to vote and 124 000 16/17 year olds so I dont think that the YES campaign will be putting the flags up yet!!!!
John Little
15-Mar-13, 18:36
I have just tried to complain to the Press Complaints Commission as follows;
"Please explain how you believe the Code of Practice has been breached
In stating that Scottish soldiers would lose their vote in the referendum if they were posted abroad, the articles are both inaccurate. Reference to the provisions of the act setting out the conditions of the referendum here;
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/S4_Bills/Scottish%20Independence%20Referendum%20Franchise%2 0Bill/b24s4-introd-en.pdf
reveals that any Scottish soldier posted abroad is entitled to postal vote citing their last address of residence in Scotland. `when I asked in the comments under both articles exactly which Scottish soldiers would be disenfranchised, no explanation was forthcoming. I have to conclude that the information contained in these articles in both the Guardian and the Telegraph is inaccurate. Indeed it is not true."
My complaint was under Clause 1, section 1 of the editorial code.
My submission was rejected 3 times because I had not submitted it with the correct date format. I had actually used the correct format and repeated it twice with the same result. You know those joke buttons where you try to vote something and they move way from your cursor?....
We do need the Leveson Report to be implemented.
I then tried to phone them but the office is closed.
Monday morning!
secrets in symmetry
16-Mar-13, 14:00
Nonetheless my mediocre and mendacious nonsense knows that the SNP position over fossil fuels is hypocrisy.
And your desire for economic advantage in the 3rd richest country in Europe, in my mendacious and mediocre interpretation still looks like self interest and money grabbing.
If the money is there that is.
And my mendacious nonsense sees that RBS is still making losses.That's an accurate summary.
Nye Bevan was accurate too.
Of course the economic argument is all rubbish - especially the third richest bit. Some people will believe any old rubbish if it comes from eckology.
John Little
16-Mar-13, 17:45
Aye - that is true - but it does not imho help the Unionist side to start telling porkies just to make the other side look bad.
When I argue with data from respected national newspapers I think I have a right to expect it to be true. If they are not then the editors have breached the Editors' code very clearly and I shall complain; as you may gather I am not happy at being taken for a dupe by people who should know better.
With blatant inaccurate tripe all that happens is that it feeds the Nats' conviction that they are being lied to and all the media are against them.
Telling the truth should be enough.
MerlinScot
17-Mar-13, 11:06
Are you? Are you saying that if the Scottish electorate votes YES in Autumn 2014 you will pack your bags and move? Oooooooooooh just had a thought maybe you are Mrs Secrets in Symmetry lol lol lol... He could be your Scottish Husband [lol] EVERYONE will be jealous!!!!:roll:
Answer to the first two questions: yes.
The answer to the third question would be as stupid as the question so I refrain from replying to that.
I still have to understand why independentists have to resort to naive or silly arguments to prove their points, sometimes reacting in a rude and impolite manner. If you fight for a cause, it is not necessary to attack others for their views. Given the poor results in the polls, you should persuade the others to embrace your cause not to repel it.
One year ago I was in favour of independence, after few meetings with SNP representatives I was undecided, after reading your posts I want to flee the country.
That is really bad PR, squidge.
John Little
18-Mar-13, 10:45
Update in this ongoing saga. I have spoken to the PCC and have now emailed my complaint to them. When they respond I shall let you know what they say.
this may throw a better light on the lies that the Snp are saying
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9937920/Thousands-of-Scottish-servicemen-denied-special-deal-in-independence-referendum.html
John Little
18-Mar-13, 23:37
Aye, that's one of the articles I complained about.
Nobody has been 'denied' a vote.
They can apply for a service vote in the normal way.
Aye, that's one of the articles I complained about.
Nobody has been 'denied' a vote.
They can apply for a service vote in the normal way.
However, no similar special arrangements have been made for Scottish members of the armed forces who are serving abroad or in the remainder of the UK.
Soldiers can apply for a “service vote” if they do not live in Scotland but not while registered as an “ordinary voter” on the electoral roll in other parts of the United Kingdom.
not the way I read that statement John
secrets in symmetry
18-Mar-13, 23:45
Aye, that's one of the articles I complained about.
Nobody has been 'denied' a vote.
They can apply for a service vote in the normal way.It's a different article - it has a different URL, at least. The old article is no longer there.
I don't know what the overlap between them is because I didn't read the old one.
John Little
18-Mar-13, 23:46
If they are registered to vote in England then they are among the 800000 Scots living in England who also cannot vote in the referendum. That is a different matter.
To give the impression that Scots normally resident in Scotland would not be able to vote in the referendum because they were serving their country overseas is wrong.
All Scots, normally resident in Scotland get a vote, serving overseas or not. Situation normal and nobody denied a vote that would normally get a vote.
If they are registered to vote in England then they are among the 800000 Scots living in England who also cannot vote in the referendum. That is a different matter.
To give the impression that Scots normally resident in Scotland would not be able to vote in the referendum because they were serving their country overseas is wrong.
All Scots, normally resident in Scotland get a vote, serving overseas or not. Situation normal and nobody denied a vote that would normally get a vote.
How many Non Scots on the Scottish electoral will get the vote then? I have no idea how many there are.
John Little
18-Mar-13, 23:52
Ah - I have no idea. Quite a lot I believe but I'd have to google it.
John Little
18-Mar-13, 23:55
Here you go:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/around_britain/html/scotland.stm
secrets in symmetry
18-Mar-13, 23:59
Here you go:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/born_abroad/around_britain/html/scotland.stmThat's the 2001 census, a lot has changed since then.
What exactly are you complaining about in the Telegraph article?
John Little
19-Mar-13, 00:15
The Telegraph article gives the impression that Scottish Servicemen are somehow being denied the vote in the referendum because they are serving queen and country abroad.
This is not the case.
Scottish servicemen, last resident in Scotland can apply for a service vote based on their last address in Scotland.For Scottish servicemen normally registered to vote in England there is no vote in the referendum.
This has absolutely nothing to do with their being servicemen or serving abroad. They are being treated in the same way as any other Scot resident in England. The normal electoral rules apply.
No one is being 'denied' a vote in the referendum who is entitled to one under the rules, so the Telegraph article and the a guardian article are misleading, inaccurate and give the wrong impression.
Whether Scots living in England should have the vote in the referendum is quite another discussion.
The Telegraph article gives the impression that Scottish Servicemen are somehow being denied the vote in the referendum because they are serving queen and country abroad.
This is not the case.
Scottish servicemen, last resident in Scotland can apply for a service vote based on their last address in Scotland.For Scottish servicemen normally registered to vote in England there is no vote in the referendum.
This has absolutely nothing to do with their being servicemen or serving abroad. They are being treated in the same way as any other Scot resident in England. The normal electoral rules apply.
No one is being 'denied' a vote in the referendum who is entitled to one under the rules, so the Telegraph article and the a guardian article are misleading, inaccurate and give the wrong impression.
Whether Scots living in England should have the vote in the referendum is quite another discussion.
Then why make a special case for bairns to get a special vote? its Snp skullduggery
John Little
19-Mar-13, 00:20
You are right though. This is not the article of 13 March. They have clarified it and changed it considerably but what they say still gives a wrong impression. It looks like the original article but is not.
The original article has been deleted from the web.
secrets in symmetry
19-Mar-13, 00:23
The Telegraph article gives the impression that Scottish Servicemen are somehow being denied the vote in the referendum because they are serving queen and country abroad.
This is not the case.
Scottish servicemen, last resident in Scotland can apply for a service vote based on their last address in Scotland.For Scottish servicemen normally registered to vote in England there is no vote in the referendum.
This has absolutely nothing to do with their being servicemen or serving abroad. They are being treated in the same way as any other Scot resident in England. The normal electoral rules apply.
No one is being 'denied' a vote in the referendum who is entitled to one under the rules, so the Telegraph article and the a guardian article are misleading, inaccurate and give the wrong impression.
Whether Scots living in England should have the vote in the referendum is quite another discussion.
You are right though. This is not the article of 13 March. They have clarified it and changed it considerably but what they say still gives a wrong impression. It looks like the original article but is not.
The original article has been deleted from the web.
Your impression of the current Telegraph article is different from mine. They emphasize different things from you, but I wouldn't get very excited about the differences....
John Little
19-Mar-13, 00:26
Would you not see the heavy revision from the original as rather sharp practice and rather letting the side down? The original was deplorable.
secrets in symmetry
19-Mar-13, 00:28
Would you not see the heavy revision from the original as rather sharp practice and rather letting the side down? The original was deplorable.I didn't see the original, so I can't say for sure.
I'll have to trust you on this one. :cool:
John Little
19-Mar-13, 00:31
There I agree with you Golach.
The Telegraph article that is current does not also make the point that serving soldiers can apply for a vote if they can show a 'local connection'.
That being so they have a greater chance of getting a vote than Sir Alec Ferguson.
The original headline in the Telegraph said: "Thousands of Scottish servicemen denied vote in independence referendum"
The new and very rewritten one says; "Thousands of Scottish servicemen denied special deal in independence referendum"
Evidently someone has been sent homeward tae think again...
secrets in symmetry
19-Mar-13, 00:34
Then why make a special case for bairns to get a special vote? its Snp skullduggeryThat's for sure.
Mock polls for bairns have shown much higher support for the SNP than proper grown-up polls for 20 years or more. That's why the secessionists want to give votes to bairns - but they'll never admit it.
macadamia
19-Mar-13, 10:19
If the bairns - most of whom use Facebook,, are subjected to SNP propaganda, which averages at least 5 press releases a day, all in the style of command economy fifties Soviet style puffs and Ozymandiasinine posturing "Thanks to Comrade Salmond, output of haggis retaining clips in Clackmannanshire has risen by 300%. Comrade Salmond states 'This is a clear sign of the superiority of Scottish haggis-clip welding which is only the beginning of a huge revival in Scottish industry, thanks only to the SNP and nobody else'"
After each Braveheart Brag comes a list of comments, obviously all from SNP supporters.
At this stage be very, very afraid. If this is the back bone of the SNP, they make for tragic reading. "Aye, whit we need is Wasteminster an all its puppits to be boiled alive for the wrongs they have done us and Cameron should swing frae a lampost with all yon fat ugly tories who have cleaned out Scotland for years, sucking the life blood but nae more in 2014 when we pit the union to the sord"
Wake up, Scotland! This is a beautiful country, full of kind, warm, engaging and wonderful people, a country currently playing out what will either end up as tragedy or farce. Examine the case for Independence. Is secession and fragmentation the way ahead. And, Independentalists - what say you to Shetland and the Orkneys making THEIR stand to keep their oil assets by staying in some form or other with the Union?
Pandora's Box is not yet open........
If the bairns - most of whom use Facebook,, are subjected to SNP propaganda, which averages at least 5 press releases a day, all in the style of command economy fifties Soviet style puffs and Ozymandiasinine posturing "Thanks to Comrade Salmond, output of haggis retaining clips in Clackmannanshire has risen by 300%. Comrade Salmond states 'This is a clear sign of the superiority of Scottish haggis-clip welding which is only the beginning of a huge revival in Scottish industry, thanks only to the SNP and nobody else'"
After each Braveheart Brag comes a list of comments, obviously all from SNP supporters.
At this stage be very, very afraid. If this is the back bone of the SNP, they make for tragic reading. "Aye, whit we need is Wasteminster an all its puppits to be boiled alive for the wrongs they have done us and Cameron should swing frae a lampost with all yon fat ugly tories who have cleaned out Scotland for years, sucking the life blood but nae more in 2014 when we pit the union to the sord"
Wake up, Scotland! This is a beautiful country, full of kind, warm, engaging and wonderful people, a country currently playing out what will either end up as tragedy or farce. Examine the case for Independence. Is secession and fragmentation the way ahead. And, Independentalists - what say you to Shetland and the Orkneys making THEIR stand to keep their oil assets by staying in some form or other with the Union?
Pandora's Box is not yet open........
I'm not fat. :mad:
John Little
19-Mar-13, 12:07
I'm not fat. :mad: It's true. He's not...
John Little
19-Mar-13, 15:09
I have received notification from the PCC that my complaint is being dealt with. Copies of my complaint have been sent to both newspapers to get their reactions. As the Editor of the Sunday Telegraph is a member of the PCC and one of the papers I complain about is the Daily Telegraph, he will not take part in any discussion of this matter.
They will deal with it as quickly as possible.
therealducati
19-Mar-13, 15:51
I'm not fat. :mad:
Then who is the imposter living in my house?
John Little
25-Mar-13, 09:37
How many Non Scots on the Scottish electoral will get the vote then? I have no idea how many there are..
Sorry Golach - I have been away a few days.
The answer to your question appears to be, by the most recent figures I can get, 58,004 from Europe. Rest of the world I do not know.
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/electoral-stats/11electoral-stats-table1.pdf
John Little
25-Mar-13, 14:44
I have just received a response from the PCC. It appears that the Scottish government also lodged an objection with the Telegraph over the original article in the Telegraph and some discussions took place.
As a result of this the Telegraph rewrote the original article into a version which the Scottish government acknowledged as accurate. A clarification was also printed in the print version of the Telegraph.
I have expressed my disappointment that in the reply I received no apology seems to have been made. Nonetheless, the rewrite and the clarification add up to the fact that the Telegraph got it wrong and have acknowledged it.
I have also expressed the thought that when writing about such emotive matters where wrong information can muddy the debate, they really should check their facts before they print.
And that is that because it is pointless to pursue it further except that what the Torygraph says must be treated with a large pinch of salt.
The damage they have done to their own trumpeted reputation for accuracy far outweighs any good they may have got from printing what turned out to be complete misinformation.
Oh well ... Smacked hands, dont do it again. Did anyone see this week that a piece Richard Littlejohn wrote about a transgender person who was a teacher and undergoing a gender reassignment process led to that teacher being jounded by the press? The victim of this intrusion committed suicide. There was a complete hoo haa over the nurse who killed herself after being on the receiving end of a prank phone call but I have seen nothing much about this teacher. There is however a call for Richard Littlejohn to be sacked. The press are just disgusting at times.
John Little
25-Mar-13, 15:57
Littlejohn is an out and out fascist - I have no time for the man.
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