View Full Version : Railway Improvements
There are plans to modernise the Wick to Inverness railway link. Supposedly, the journey times will be cut to two hours.
Will we give up our cars to get to Inverness?
Not unless there are more trains running, no.
Colin Manson
17-Feb-05, 13:17
I'd probably use the train more often to go shopping for clothes but it doesn't really help when you are planning to buy stuff from Homebase or B&Q. You still have to get to the business parks and it's impossible to carry large goods home.
But if you want to go shopping this Saturday you've got one train down (at 7am) and one back (5:35pm). Kind of limiting, no? If you don't want to spend the whole day in Inverness you need to take the car. If you don't want to leave at 5:35 (maybe you're going to the cinema or having dinner?) then you take the car.
Even one extra train down (maybe leaving around 11am) and one extra train up (running later at night) would make it a little easier to take the train?
Colin Manson
17-Feb-05, 13:54
I guess that the current timetable is related to the time it currently takes for the journey, if the decrease the duration maybe they'll increase the frequency?
good point, since the journeys will be halfed in times then we will get double the service? :roll:
doreenhedgehog
17-Feb-05, 14:04
good point, since the journeys will be halfed in times then we will get double the service? :roll:
They will probably cut back instead. They will find a way of justifying it.
Hey, I am in agreement with jjc on this thread. :eek:
I would definatley use it!! Why bother driving all the way there, arriving bored & tired, onyl to find nowhere to park, and low on petrol.
On the otherhand, a two hour service would much more useful if traveling beyond inverness as it would allow one to actully catch a ongoing connection.
Mr P Cannop
17-Feb-05, 17:31
just now on the train it take about 3 hrs from thurso to inverness and inverness to thurso
It would certainly help if the time was cut down till 2hours but its like most things in life the cost of the train ticket for a family and the price of fuel for the trip will probably decide which is better
With a cut in the time, will they reduce the price?
Currently its actually cheaper for me to drive to Inverness than it is to take the train. I dont travel often enough to warrant a rail card. I can get there and back for about 10/12 quid in the car.
If we get things like Homebase, Argos & Tescos up here then it might be worth it if all you're going to do is wander round Inverness town centre.
It would be more like it if they put on a flight to inverness for £30 or so, that would make the entire journey take under an hour, including taxis.
Actually it's 3.5 hours from Thurso to Inverness by train if it's on time, which it hardly ever is, and about 4 hours from Wick. In fact from Wick it's much quicker to go by bus which is mad. Funny thing happened the other day, the morning train from Thurso to Inverness was cancelled and a bus substituted which apparently called at the same places but got there half an hour earlier! Rob Gibson was asking for a 2 hour service every 2 hours which would be fantastic. However what we also need, and I've asked First Scotrail about this, are car parks at the stations up here. No point planning a day's shopping or whatever if you can't leave your car this end and not many of us live in walking distance of a station. I have left mine at Georgemas for the day but no-one else seems to.
.Currently its actually cheaper for me to drive to Inverness than it is to take the train. I dont travel often enough to warrant a rail card. I can get there and back for about 10/12 quid in the car.
...This doesn't make sense Zael - for one, the £7.50 railcard would pay for itself in the first return trip (assuming you're in Wick or Thurso); and if you can get to Inverness for £10 it must be on a moped, I work out at least 200 miles at roughly £4 a gallon - work it out! :)
~~Tides~~
17-Feb-05, 21:05
I doubt that many people would use it,
2 hours in their car or two hours on the train. They will choose their car. Plus the flexability of traveling around the city. Are you going to carry £200 worth of shopping from Tescos back to the train?
Colin Manson
17-Feb-05, 22:40
I would use it, not all the time but I think that I certainly would use it to go shopping for clothes and things that are available around the town centre.
I'd still drive to go shopping in the DIY stores or to buy large quantities of goods.
Brizer2k2
17-Feb-05, 22:55
when I travel up from Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire to Thurso to visit my Dad, I have a short journey to Luton airport, just over an hour gets me to Inverness but the current Inverness to Thurso train takes so long. It is soul destroying and you are so glad when you get there.
Also the last train which leaves Inverness at approx. 5.30 p.m is always full of workers from Inverness who get off in Muir of Ord, Dingwall, Beauly etc and sometimes you have to stand up as they only have 2 carriages.
:D I too can drive to Inverness on £10 worth of petrol and £10 for the return trip.It takes me 2 - 2and as half hours to get to inverness. i would definetly go by train if the journey is shortened. It takes 4 hours from wick. the bus leaves Inverness to wick at 6pm,it would be good if the train did this too.
As for heavy shopping - there are frequent buses to B&Q etc, and vans from Caithness will collect these items very cheaply. i have done this a few times. :lol:
When seeking reduced rail times to Inverness - spare more than a thought for those small communities outwith the "Dornoch Rail Link" proposal - it may be an inconvenience for travellers from Wick and Thurso but it is a lifeline to those other communities.
To ignore their needs is selfish.
Perhaps an express bus service is the answer?
Naefearjustbeer
18-Feb-05, 10:47
If the price was right then yes I would use the train. At the moment my car does about 50 mpg so 200 miles = 4 gallons, And that is with the whole family on board. If the journey was cut down to 2 hours and the train worked out cheaper then that is how we would go. It would be nice to sit and relax all the way home after a day in the city and maybe have a nice tin of beer to drink without worrying about driving up the road. Saying that though last time we went to Inverness we came out of tescos with 2 trollys full to the top and it would of been difficult to take that lot home on the train, The savings we made shopping in tescos more than covers the cost of fuel to go down and back.
Alas, our hopes of a two train service from wick to Inverness have been dashed by Councillor Alison Magee's preference for the Aberdeen to Perth line.
Easy come easy gone I suppose?
I think the first improtant thing is to get the full Corus report completed then the true cost, savings etc will be known and this will put an end to all the claims and counter claims of time saved etc. The future of the Lairg loop would also be covered by the report and they might well come out better served and with more work etc if the improvements go ahead. The one thing we cannot do is nothing as the line will just die. At present First Scotrail intend adding 8 minutes to the timetable to cover the delays from speed restrictions and the spy in the cab. Our goverments love taxing fuel as it is easy and you cannot get round it. We will suffer more than most and this will make cheap travel more important as time goes on.
The Highlands and Orkney needs the far north line, Dounreay is coming to an end and the days of plenty are over. We need to look to the future and try and ensure that we have the infrastructure to allow our children to be able to stay in Caithness and work. If that means a Dornoch firth rail bridge, so be it. We need something or Caithness will be a real backwater.
Caledonia
20-Feb-05, 19:25
Zael> "I can get there and back for about 10/12 quid in the car."
Does your car have solar panels?
Perhaps a sail?
That is incredible on a road like the A9, or are you near to Inverness?
I am luck if I do the return trip for £30, although I admit I do tend to go a bit too quickly.
I frequently use the train, and would definitely do so a lot more if it was 2 hours.
Imagine being able to do a day trip where you actually spent more time in Inverness than on the train!
Also, in case anyone is misled by the figures quoted, the train or coach is by far and away the cheapest way to do the trip, short of hitchiking or cycling.
Cars cost a LOT more than the petrol or diesel per mile. A LOT more.
;)
Colin Manson
20-Feb-05, 19:55
I use just under £20 and I drive a 2.0L car, I guess someone with a smaller more economical car would do it for a lot less. New Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDCi 64MPG for example. ;)
If there are 2 people in the car then it's cheaper than bus or train, a family of 4 save a fortune taking the car.
Think you need to check your sums again Caledonia and slow down. :p
My Ford Focus 1.8 Xetec diesel cost me £13,000, if I run it into the ground over ten years then the cost is
£13000/(10*10000miles)= £0.13p per mile.
Reay to Inverness return= ~220miles down the the forsinard road total car costs =£28.60
Fuel consumption =11.22 miles per litre.
220/11.22 = 19.6 litres
Fuel costs 19.6 X 0.924 = £18.12
Total costs = £18.12 + £28.60
£46.71
And I haven't included tax, garage costs and insurance!!
Now how much was that return ticket to Inverness? :o)
Caledonia
20-Feb-05, 20:28
Based on petrol/diesel at roughly £3.60 per gallon, and giving 220 miles as the return trip, allows for some town driving, you would be getting 80 miles per gallon to do it for a tenner, or 66mpg for £12.
To average 66 mpg on the A9 you need to be driving a vehicle with an extra urban consumption of probably 80, to get 80 I would assume you would need a vehicle that averages well over 90.
Either way, well done for purchasing a car with a 600cc three cylinder diesel and freewheeling it down the braes.
Of course, that main gist of my post is that petrol is the least of your costs.
Cars vary widely in running costs, but a very conservative estimate of 20p per mile would involve at least £44 for the trip of 220 miles given, now that is actually more than two adults and two children travelling on the train, or on the bus.
The real cost to the environment, and in oil wars abroad, are of course set aside here...
I can do it for £25 if I take it canny, I guess I need one of those superminis.
;)
Colin Manson
20-Feb-05, 21:26
Total costs = £18.12 + £28.60
£46.71
And I haven't included tax, garage costs and insurance!!
Now how much was that return ticket to Inverness? :o)
Your calculations statistical rather than logical but tbh that's what I expected. ;) Your car will depreciate even if it's sitting in the garage doing nothing, might as well calculate how much it costs when you are sleeping.
Road tax, Insurance etc don't come into the cost unless you can justify not having a car at all. I'm happy to accept, fuel and wear and tear costs.
Now if you'd like to work that out again based upon 2 adult and 2 kids using railcards I'd like to see how much cheaper it is to take the train.
You could also add in the cost of having your goods from B&Q etc delivered because you couldn't possible carry everything home on the train. Taxis out to the shopping parks and you have even begun to add in the cost of a sandwich and coffee on the train (those alone are more expensive than the petrol :p)
The gist of this post is - It's always going to be cheaper for 4 people to travel by car to Inverness unless they reduce the cost of Public transport. Unless all of the people are over 60 and they have their free bus passes. :D
Your calculations statistical rather than logical but tbh that's what I expected. .
Cars vary widely in running costs, but a very conservative estimate of 20p per mile would involve at least £44 for the trip of 220 miles given
What's more informative? A statistical calculation or mere speculation? ;)
Crikey! It looks like Carol-bloody-Vordemann has joined this thread! The only term not mentioned yet is "APR"!
I reckon that ace consumption in a small diesely should be about £9 each way, even allowing for the astronomic prices charged by Caithness filling stations. If someone can do it for £6 each way, they must be pushing the car.
Forget about depreciation etc - you've got a car, end of story.
Road tax, Insurance etc don't come into the cost unless you can justify not having a car at all.
You have got to take into account tax and insurance costs, they are one-off payments, yes, but haulage companies include those costs into the price to the customer.
But like caledonia says, the capital cost is the killer on the old back pocket and it does add to the global warming sceptic's arguement that the more you use a car the more economical it gets...
Colin Manson
20-Feb-05, 23:35
Haulage companies include those costs, of course because those are overheads. They have to take overheads into account; otherwise they wouldn't make a profit.
People that already own a car have already accepted all those costs, your argument is baseless. It's just arguing for the sake of it but I guess everyone knows that.
If I had a choice to go to work either by bus or buy a car for that purpose I would have to consider all costs involved, It would be foolish to just consider the running and capital costs.
And I am not arguing for the sake of it, I think I have a valid point here.
:D I have to drive to Inverness on a regular basis in my ford escort ghia. I put £10 of petrol in my car when I leave, and another £10 when I leave Inverness, and when I get home I still have plenty of petrol left. Careful driving saves petrol! :lol:
If I were you, I would put £10 of petrol before I go to Inverness and fill it up to the gunwhales for the journey back... :D
your argument is baseless. It's just arguing for the sake of it but I guess everyone knows that.
[lol] [lol] [lol]
Oh, how true!
The comment was made about using the train to get to Inverness and then getting a taxi out to the business parks to do some shopping. A bus leaves at least every 15 minutes to Tescos and only costs £1 each way, bet the taxi costs a lot more than that even before it moves off the spot!! (PS the bus leaves from in front of the post office in Union Street).
The prob is though unless something is done to improve the journey time by rail the calculations that have been done to say whether the train or car is cheaper will be academic as the rail line North of Tain will have been closed and we will all be at the mercy of the price of fuel and the single coach company running on the route.
well, my car cost me nothing (except much gratitude to the donor), although I have spent about £500 on it in repairs.
It takes about 20/21 litres of fuel for me to go to inverness and back thats about £17/£18 if I buy all the fuel up here. But if I know I'm going to inverness, then I put £5 in the tank here and top it up on the way down to inverness where I fill it to the neck for the return journey. (at tescos)
If I have a passenger to share the fuel costs then I'm even better off. I only make this journey occasionally, perhaps 1 or twice a year so I am much better off using the car. Add in the the advantages of freedom of travel around the outskirts of Inverness and the car wins hands down.
If you can afford the depreciation on a new car then I sit-myself-down-and-laugh-really-hard-in-your-general-direction. Seriously though, if you can afford it then why bellyache about the cost of a journey to Inverness.
The Pepsi Challenge
26-Feb-05, 00:23
Are there any figures on how many people use the Wick/Thurso-Inverness railway service? Be interesting to see the results. Obviously if public transport was more reliable and efficient then people would use it. As an aside, did anyone hear about the bullet train which will shuttle between Edinburgh and Glasgow? It's estimated the service will take 10 minutes; that's 50 minutes shorter than it currently stands.
Bill Fernie
27-Feb-05, 01:11
The follwoing report might help with some information -
The Case For Rail In The Highlands & Islands - March 2004
Rail Passenger Survey Findings
Technical Report 2
http://www.hie.co.uk/HIE-technical-report-2-rail-passenger-survey-findings.pdf
It is 45 page report in a Pdf file so may take a few minutes to download unless you are on broadband.
You also need Adobe Reader installed - Its Free
The Pepsi Challenge
28-Feb-05, 08:27
Cheers, Bill.
Thanks.
georgemaswanderer
28-Feb-05, 13:11
I am currently almost a permanent car user, although I did use the train on Friday night as I was dropping off a car in Inverness. Although the train journey was less tiresome than the drive up the A9, it was cold (even though the heaters were on) and was 30 mins late getting into Georgemas. Add that in with the length of journey, it is hardly an appealing prospect compared with taking the car...
The only way I would regularly take the train as opposed to the car would be if the route was properly upgraded to remove the inconvenience. To do this, here are my proposals (and solution to the Lairg loop problem):
Infrastructure:
1) Link Tain to Golspie via Dornoch
2) Station at Halkirk
3) Link spur to bypass Georgemas station to run direct to Thurso.
4) Retain the Lairg loop (possibly only as far as Lairg?)
5) Consider the installation of additional passing loops to allow increased frequency as below
6) Sort out the speed restrictions and attempt to generally up the line speeds on the areas of line where this causes hold ups.
7) Build stations at Inverness Airport and Inverness Retail Park
8) Improve 'turning triangle' at Inverness station to allow trains to go straight in and straight out on different lines or... (a bit controversial this one...)
9) Re-locate Inverness station onto the through line to allow straight through operation of trains from north and south. Money for doing this would be easily re-couped by sale of existing station site
Service
1) Faster/more comfortable trains eg Class 168/170 as used in England and Scotrail main routes
2) Run a 2 hourly service to Wick and Thurso with a journey time of as close to 2 hours as possible. This train should run 'express' style between Inverness and Tain, possibly only stopping at Dingwall - if at all?
3) Run a 3 trains a day service each way between Inverness and Lairg (or Golspie), stopping at all stations. This would cater for the overcrowding between Inverness and Tain, the removal of the Thurso/Wick stops and would allow servicing of the Lairg loop.
4) Expand the platform at Beauly station to 'normal' 2 car length
5) 1 hourly service between Inverness at Aberdeen
6) Aberdeen trains to stop at Inverness Airport and Inverness Retail Park. Connecting buses to run between stations and the areas they service
7) Consider idea of Thurso/Wick/Kyle and Lairg trains terminating at Inverness Airport
8) A minor niggle this one... Toilets at Inverness station to allow redundancy (ie some toilets to stay open when the other ones are being cleaned), and preferably free too...
Many of these have already been proposed elsewhere, but if all these were done, then yes, I would probably take the train quite a lot.
How about a commuter train between Wick and Thurso?
One train going back and forth all day, first one early enough for Dounrey etc, last one late enough for clubs&pubs. One stop at Halkirk - if it gets a station.
Would you use it?
Are there any figures on how many people use the Wick/Thurso-Inverness railway service? ...well, the train passes just a few yards from our house, I would estimate that on average there's no more than 20 passengers on board up this end. However the train fills up a bit more south of Tain.
The Pepsi Challenge
02-Mar-05, 00:50
Where are you based exactly, davidd?
Yogi_on_on
02-Mar-05, 12:53
I have read with interest about the various points of view relating to the transport links between Caithness and Inverness, mainly with comments about going shopping.
I will accept that there is a grater choice in Inverness, but in stead of complaining about the links should we not consider the reasons for travel.
Would it not be better to spend the hard earned money in the county improving the services here and developing employment and social soundness.
The Pepsi Challenge
04-Mar-05, 19:11
I have read with interest about the various points of view relating to the transport links between Caithness and Inverness, mainly with comments about going shopping.
I will accept that there is a grater choice in Inverness, but in stead of complaining about the links should we not consider the reasons for travel.
Would it not be better to spend the hard earned money in the county improving the services here and developing employment and social soundness.
I like to take the train when I venture north (to Thurso, four times a year): more comfortable than the bus, better for our environment than using a car. I expect the train to be warm and for the journey not to take more than three hours. Sadly, it doesn't. Which is why, somewhat regrettably, I've had to hire a car every time I headed north last year.
As I said before about figures, it would be good to launch a survey and see: how many people take the train from A-Z; how many of them are on the train to go shopping, en route to a holiday desitnation, visting relatives etc.
I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, though.
Being a "recycled teenager" definitely has its advantages. I can go all the way to Inverness and back by bus, practically door to door and for nothing, bringing back a fair bit of shopping and faster than the train. That has to be a bargain. :roll: Mind you, I can also get half price on the train but - fewer trains so less flexibility with time.
©Amethyst
05-Mar-05, 18:30
Tuppence worth here -
A shorter journey will in no way get me to use the train south more. A nicer, cleaner, more comfortable train will.
If I want to go spend a day in Inverness, I don't want to have to wear my scruffiest clothes and look like a yob, which is what I have to do because I can't wear decient clothes on that train 'cause it's so manky.
I agree that the condition of the trains leaves a lot to be desiried. The trains are now coming on for 15 years old and were last refurbished when they were cast off from the central belt and sent north as an improvement to what we had. The last few times i have been on the train it has either been freezing or boiling, seems Scotrails air conitioning has only these two settings. If your train is late you can claim half the fare back from scotrail, either ask for a form at the station or you can download one from their website www.firstscotrail.com. Their website also has a link that lets you see the trains progress which is handy if meeting someone off it.
One thing to always do is to write to scotrail and complain about the slowness, dirtiness and the heating. If you donot complain donot expect to get it fixed.
JB
I am at the moment on a short trip to Englandshire. I have a nice car but decided this time to take the train south (just to try it out, if you know?). My train was scheduled to arrive at Forsinard at 07.33am yesterday. It was late by 25 minutes. This caused me to miss my connection at Inverness so they put me on a bus service to ol'reeky to get my connection at 14.56pm. The bus didn't make it in time AND they took me to waverley instead of Haymarket!! At waverley i got hassled by barclaycard peddlars and stung by out of action public telephones. I had an hour wait for a connection to Oxenholme (an extra station that I had to change at) This was surprisingly on time. I changed at Oxenholme for Lancaster. My last train connection was also late. Eventually arrived at my destination nearly 2 hours later than scheduled.
Verdict
The coach trip from inverness to Edinburgh was the best part of the journey, I wished it was direct...
The train staff were rude except the local laddies. There are no bins anywhere and hence there is lots of litter. Scenery was good and i got stuck into my book. The toilets were minging.
I will drive next time even though it will take 8 hours , the train took 13 hours!!
The Angel Of Death
06-Apr-05, 11:12
Last time i checked tesco wanted £90 to deliver a tv from inverness to wick (yes £90 and the tv only cost £150) and for B and Q to deliver kitchen units to wick again was £50 minimum this was using there own delivery bods though not to sure if the caithness ones would be any cheaper
If the train or bus left Inverness after 6pm then I think more people would use it. It may even attact more tourists. I take my car to Inverness as I can leave and return when I want.
If the bus and train operators spoke to each other and looked at connection time this would also be a great help. Would you want to wait in Inverness for 2 hours with your luggage waiting for a connection?
I think the train fare has something to do with people not taking the trains too. I heard that the train hasn't pulled into Thurso a few times this past week at 7am and the passengers waiting had to be bussed to Georgemas to catch it. THAT isn't good. [evil]
Whatever happened to the saviour of communication for the North, the Wick-Inverness air link?
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