View Full Version : RIP Hugo Chavez
Love him or hate, he was a victim of misrepresentation by rightwing media. He was a thorn in the side of the unhealthy spread of neo-liberalism. A shining example to us all if we are to resist the destructive effects of rightwing politics.
M Swanson
06-Mar-13, 01:17
Venezuela, under the leadership of Chavez had an appalling record for Human Rights violations. It was, of course a socialist regime. Check out this link from Amnesty International and decide for yourself the destructiveness, or not, of his leftwing politics.
I rest my case.
Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012)
What case? I read a tweet tonight which said "If you want to know more about Venezuelan human rights before Hugo Chavez, type 'Caracazo' into google images. With a strong stomach." Venezuela appeared to be a country growing and changing. Whilst much progress had been made much still needed to be done. It appears Chavez had been democratically elected in internationally observed elections which had been seen to be "free and fair". I hope his work can continue and that everyone living in Venezuela can soon live free from turmoil and human rights violations.
Left wing/Right wing, I think history has shown it's probably safer to be in the middle.
For now.
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 08:16
I think you need to very careful dealing with anywhere in South America very few countries I. That neck of the woods are places I'd happily live and Hugo bless him not all good not all bad but still not a leader that you'd accept over here. Telling me he was democratically elected isn't reassuring considering the education levels in Venezuela and living conditions anyone who offers a chink of light and warmth would get your vote so once again it's never as clear as it seems. he was a big personality I'd give you that but I wouldn't put him up as a shining light for communism, that system has proven time and time again to fail
Venezuela, under the leadership of Chavez had an appalling record for Human Rights violations. It was, of course a socialist regime. Check out this link from Amnesty International and decide for yourself the destructiveness, or not, of his leftwing politics.
I rest my case.
Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012)
Take a good look at what human rights were like in Venezuela before Hugo Chavez brought democracy to millions of ordinary Venezuelans. Do a Google image search for 'Caracazo'. Chavez brought ordinary Venezuelans prosperity and democracy. He was ELECTED thirteen times by those people. For the duration of his presidency the Venezuelan opposition have tried every undemocratic means they can to get rid of Chavez, the opposition being made up of oil owners etc. Chavez was portrayed us unpopular to western politicians because he refused to dance to the USA's tune.
Keep a good eye on Venezuela because I fear those people are going to see real interference in their democracy from the USA and a loss of their human rights and quality of life.
Reading the BBC's coverage is a bit sickening, seeing him referred to as a 'dictator', the bias is appalling. Dictators are not elected, and Venezuela's elections were strictly monitored, passing the test every time.
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 09:09
Somewhat disingenuous to make out Mr Chavez as a bastion of human rights, whilst I'm no lover of the USA and its interference of sovereign nations I wouldn't say Venuzuela is a shining light for democracy either the cult of personality is something he embraced fully. For human rights he was quite happy to support Argentinas claims over the Falkland Islands and that is despite the islanders right to self determination as enshrined in international law. So there goes his democratic credentials, and if you say he did wonders for the people of Venezuala I'd disagree they aren't much better off than fourteen years ago, the internal repression and torture still go on but they are more veiled now. So floating political ideals on fatally flawed individuals is a bad idea. Communism is a wonderful theoretical idea it falls down when you put humans and their greed avarice laziness etc etc in the picture. I really can't think of one communist country I've visited that the people aren't lorded over by powerful cliques its the nature of humans that old two ronnies sketch sort of sums it up. Three men in a row I'm over him but under him, if you recall it, cure that you're halfway there
I suggest people read this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/hugo-chavez-proves-you-can-lead-a-progressive-popular-government-that-says-no-to-neoliberalism-8202738.html
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 15:23
Interesting article thanks Flynn
macadamia
06-Mar-13, 16:38
It always cheers me to find those who will always look overseas to see examples of brilliant leadership, whilst totally rubbishing what they've got in their own country. How many espousers of socialism used to go ape about the wonderful USSR, where citizen-workers were bathed in the benificence of a State of pure equality, ruled over benignly by a humane committee headed by one Josef Stalin? Even after Stalin had been outed as a swivel-eyed genocidal despot, there were some diehard UK communists/socialists who still claimed Soviet society as being close to perfection. It took the total, utter, irrevocable, and final destruction of the Soviet State for history to set the record books straight. Social engineering will always end in failure whilst human nature exists. If social engineering succeeds, then what will be left will not be any kind of humanity that I would wish to have any truck with.
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 17:16
It always cheers me to find those who will always look overseas to see examples of brilliant leadership, whilst totally rubbishing what they've got in their own country. How many espousers of socialism used to go ape about the wonderful USSR, where citizen-workers were bathed in the benificence of a State of pure equality, ruled over benignly by a humane committee heading by Josef Stalin? Even after Stalin had been outed as a swivel-eyed genocidal despot, there were some diehard UK communists/socialists who still claimed Soviet society as being close to perfection. It took the total, utter, irrevocable, and final destruction of the Soviet State for history to set the record books straight. Social engineering will always end in failure whilst human nature exists. If social engineering succeeds, then what will be left will not be any kind of humanity that I would wish to have any truck with.I wouldn't say the soviet state is irrevocably destroyed young Mr Putin is doing a grand job at trying to rebuild and as the social tensions increase and organised crime gain more influence the old system may start to appeal more to the generations who have lived since the death of Stalin. Look across to Germany and the rise of fascism since reunification time passes and people forget and rewrite history only to make the same mistakes again. One sad effect of this is we like to kid ourselves how good our lives are back look closely and society is teetering on the edge due of very similar problems that started two world wars, times have changed the players aren't the same but sadly it's the same game!
macadamia
06-Mar-13, 18:22
I agree with you in part: wherever there are humans they will seek to set up a structure comprising leaders and followers. It usually ends up with the leaders exercising their powers too much, and eventually taking the proverbial. Then there's a coup, revolution, mass slaughter, or a declaration of war on a third party, and the followers become the leaders, and make all the same mistakes (though sometimes in a different order). George Orwell's "Animal Farm" says it all really. Except now, we have to update it, as you can't use the word "bad" (It's judgmental). So remember
"Four legs good
Two legs inappropriate"
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 18:34
Quite correct animal farm is a cracking book and does show up a lot of the problems. Mind as for the "bad" it does irk me that political correctness has befuddled this country, whilst I totally agree with not allowing racism etc these things are now enshrined in law, but how often do you hear someone say " you can't say that" which means in reality I haven't understood what you've said, or I disagree with what you've said,rather people now consider themselves self appointed censors totally disregarding the little freedom of speech and thought bit which has been around an awful long time.
Love him or hate, he was a victim of misrepresentation by rightwing media. He was a thorn in the side of the unhealthy spread of neo-liberalism. A shining example to us all if we are to resist the destructive effects of rightwing politics.
If I ate a can of alphabet soup the resultant dump would spell out a better positive spin on Hugo Chavez than that. Ken Livingstone and Gerry Adams thought he was a top bloke, which says all you need to know about him really.
If I ate a can of alphabet soup the resultant dump would spell out a better positive spin on Hugo Chavez than that. Ken Livingstone and Gerry Adams thought he was a top bloke, which says all you need to know about him really.
This is a thread of respect for a person who has died.
M Swanson
06-Mar-13, 19:43
This is a thread of respect for a person who has died.
I hope you're around when Mrs Thatcher passes, Rheg. :cool:
I hope you're around when Mrs Thatcher passes, Rheg. :cool:
Yes, my signature says it all. I'm not a fan of her policies but she did have a background in science and she understood it perfectly. So I'll keep my comments to that. She saw science as an asset to business and our well being, a complete contrast to her polico rivals in UKIP.
I don't think it's possible for us to assess Chavez objectively, given that he receives an almost universally hostile write-up in the western press.
I think we can reasonably conclude that he did a lot for the poor and underprivileged at a time when most politicians globally were looking after the rich and privileged, which must be a good thing.
RagnarRocks
06-Mar-13, 20:45
http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2?g=2&c=upw1I thought you might enjoy this Flynn it's a bit of an eye opener !
I don't think it's possible for us to assess Chavez objectively, given that he receives an almost universally hostile write-up in the western press.
I think we can reasonably conclude that he did a lot for the poor and underprivileged at a time when most politicians globally were looking after the rich and privileged, which must be a good thing.
You have to look after the rich and privileged or there is no-one to pay for the poor and underprivileged.
You have to look after the rich and privileged or they is no-one to pay for the poor and underprivileged.
I suggest you look at RagnarRock's link above your post.
I suggest you look at RagnarRock's link above your post.
Why? That's just common sense. Not something I would accuse you of. :lol:
I rarely if ever look at links BTW.
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 09:26
Whilst its in the nature of life for the human race to stratify somewhat, strong to weak, young to old, rich to poor, etc etc the demographic of society is becoming obscenely skewed. I have no problem with there being rich but what will happen when the equation becomes to skewed in favour of one very small section, that's when problems arise. If you have the majority of wealth being accumulated by just 1% then you have 99% that will start to become dissatisfied and that's when you get civil unrest. It isn't a political problem as greed isn't politically motivated its a human problem within every political persuasion you'll have people who want power wealth glory the reality is these personality traits are not desirable and lead to social and civil unrest eventually. If you look around the world you can see the rumblings as populations soar resources become more scarce and wealth becomes collected in ever dismissing pools. Is there an easy solution aka capitalism, communism, I doubt it as political systems tend to be run by idealists who blinker themselves to realities.Hugo Chavez did some good for his poor countrymen but he also did a lot of harm to those who disagree with him and hardly helped calm an ever destabilising world.I try to read as much as possible and keep an open mind once I stop looking and understanding how others view the world, whether or not I agree with their views I become a little island of intolerance. I hope for the sake of my children that these issues resolve themselves but with the current systems on offer I fear I am part of a world that is rapidly sliding towards self created oblivion
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 09:28
That should read "diminishing " and I dislike spell checkers that change words completely grrrr
Why? That's just common sense. Not something I would accuse you of. :lol:
I rarely if ever look at links BTW.
Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing Lalalala I suggest you look at this one: http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2?g=2&c=upw1I
Instead of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing Lalalala I suggest you look at this one: http://www.upworthy.com/9-out-of-10-americans-are-completely-wrong-about-this-mind-blowing-fact-2?g=2&c=upw1I
NOOO!:Razz What the hell is upworthy.com you freek.
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 09:44
It's a link which shows the demographic of wealth In The USA between what people think it is what they think it should be and the reality of what it actually is.
It's a link which shows the demographic of wealth In The USA between what people think it is what they think it should be and the reality of what it actually is.
So a conspiracy site right? That's why I never bother, they usually are.
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 09:48
No not a conspiracy site just statistics
No not a conspiracy site just statistics
How can 'what people think it is' be a statistic? It is some nutters agenda.
Ok, watch it on Youtube instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM)This is why 'trickle down' economics doesn't work.
Ok, watch it on Youtube instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
What is the matter with you? Why would I open that? Aaagh gotter go to work, catch yer later
What is the matter with you? Why would I open that? Aaagh gotter go to work, catch yer later
Yup, just as I suspected, closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and singing Lalala.
Now you don't have to go anywhere...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsM
Now you don't have to go anywhere...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsM
Interesting video, you wonder why so many of the poor in the USA are happy to keep voting for Dem or Rep when a vote for either means more of the same.
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 19:27
Interesting video, you wonder why so many of the poor in the USA are happy to keep voting for Dem or Rep when a vote for either means more of the same.Lack of choice is probably the answer unless you're a billionaire or have the backing of one or to your political hopes won't get you into the WhiteHouse much as I dislike communism the delusion of the USA as world class democracy is no better. From my experience its a very divisive culture with some deep ingrained racial and religious problems deeply suspicious of the outside world and quite happy to rock any countries boat that doesn't do as they are told. And very hypocritical whether you agree or disagree with the politics behind it, they helped fund the Irish problems for years creating terror and division then get all upset when they are given a taste and go to war with the Middle East and anyone else they think is involved
Yup, just as I suspected, closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and singing Lalala.
Yes we get people like you on the site from time to time. Displeased if we don't buy into your world view so feel the need to ejucate us. You will get bored and go away or toss your dummy and go away. Whatever, just go away.
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 21:46
Now learn to spell firstly then, refer to your other thread and check the paranoia level you've just shown on this thread to say I'm amused would be an understatement
RagnarRocks
07-Mar-13, 22:14
What is the matter with you? Why would I open that? Aaagh gotter go to work, catch yer laterHonest guv I'm not paranoid, and yes I am smirking !
Now learn to spell firstly then, refer to your other thread and check the paranoia level you've just shown on this thread to say I'm amused would be an understatement
Oh and your type don't get irony either[lol] Are you two joined at the hip BTW?
Yes we get people like you on the site from time to time. Displeased if we don't buy into your world view so feel the need to ejucate us. You will get bored and go away or toss your dummy and go away. Whatever, just go away.
Watch the video. Learn something. You postulated the theory of trickle down economics, a video was posted which completely exposes the lie and absolute failure of trickle down economics. I suspect that is the reason you are now spitting the dummy.
Watch the video. Learn something. You postulated the theory of trickle down economics, a video was posted which completely exposes the lie and absolute failure of trickle down economics. I suspect that is the reason you are now spitting the dummy.
No dummy spitting here, you are still barking instructions, that might work for you elsewhere....
RagnarRocks
08-Mar-13, 00:55
No dummy spitting here, you are still barking instructions, that might work for you elsewhere....Why does everyone assume that everyone's throwing toys out of prams and spitting dummies, I usually assume people who jump on political threads are fairly robust individuals enjoying a bit of freedom of speech and just say it as it is hopefully with a bit of chutzpah thrown in for amusement value !
Why does everyone assume that everyone's throwing toys out of prams and spitting dummies, I usually assume people who jump on political threads are fairly robust individuals enjoying a bit of freedom of speech and just say it as it is hopefully with a bit of chutzpah thrown in for amusement value !
Some do, some just use it as a digital soapbox.
RagnarRocks
08-Mar-13, 01:03
Some do, some just use it as a digital soapbox.Oh well feel free to carry, quite enjoyable so far! Apart from the leather clad oddity that appeared in my pm box earlier lol
You have to look after the rich and privileged or there is no-one to pay for the poor and underprivileged.
That is utter nonsense. Here's the proof of the lie that 'trickle down economics work in favour of the poorest':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsM
RagnarRocks
08-Mar-13, 09:42
That is utter nonsense. Here's the proof of the lie that trickle down economics work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsMI wouldn't call it empirical proof as it isn't substantiated but the stats do seem believable, and it does give food for thought which is no bad thing. Pays to keep an open mind on these things but we can say the current options on the table from all sides do not really work.
Tubthumper
08-Mar-13, 19:34
Hugo Chavez. Lots of oil, upset the USA, died young. Enough said.:eek:
M Swanson
08-Mar-13, 19:52
Did anyone watch the series, "Extreme World?" Well, let's forget the media for a moment and see for ourselves one of the areas, Chavez, the shining light to us all, (and friend of Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein, Castro, Qaddafi and Bashar Assad, presided over. Not exactly the kind of prison system we operate, of course. In fact, a million miles away from Barlinnie, or Wormwood Scrubs. Only today, it's been said that teenage thugs who rioted in a Youth Offenders Institution may win compensation, because part of their punishment was not to be able to use the gym, which violated their Human Rights!! Kinda gets things in perspective, don't it.
Extreme World - Ep 2 Venezuela - Audio commentary - Sky1 HD (http://sky1.sky.com/ross-kemp-extreme-world/ross-kemp-extreme-world-s2-e2-venezuela-audio-commentary)
Did anyone watch the series, "Extreme World?" Well, let's forget the media for a moment and see for ourselves one of the areas, Chavez, the shining light to us all, (and friend of Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein, Castro, Qaddafi and Bashar Assad, presided over. Not exactly the kind of prison system we operate, of course. In fact, a million miles away from Barlinnie, or Wormwood Scrubs. Only today, it's been said that teenage thugs who rioted in a Youth Offenders Institution may win compensation, because part of their punishment was not to be able to use the gym, which violated their Human Rights!! Kinda gets things in perspective, don't it.
Extreme World - Ep 2 Venezuela - Audio commentary - Sky1 HD (http://sky1.sky.com/ross-kemp-extreme-world/ross-kemp-extreme-world-s2-e2-venezuela-audio-commentary)
Or the British government, friend of dictatorships across the middle-east, friend of Pinochet, friend of the Afghan Mujahideen (who went on to become the Taliban), supporter of Idi Amin until he went rogue, supporter of Saddam Hussein until it wasn't convenient.
As for believing anything a Murdoch outlet has to say, more fool you. Did you notice today Murdoch entertained Farage for dinner? He likes his right-wing extremist nut-jobs does ol' Rupe.
M Swanson
08-Mar-13, 21:40
I'm not surprised that thus far, nobody has responded to the 'Extreme World,' clip. It's a real shocker. There's more, but I don't think some of the content is suitable for the Org, but if you'd like to Google 'Extreme World,' Venezuela, you will get an even larger picture of what is actually happening in that country. Your eyes won't deceive you and much of the testimony, is firsthand from Venezuelians (sic) themselves. It's small wonder that Amnesty International are working so hard to improve things. Decide for yourself if Chavez is a shining example to anyone.
secrets in symmetry
08-Mar-13, 22:09
Some do, some just use it as a digital soapbox.I usually read your posts, because I regard you as the sort of Tory whose thinking I need to understand when I'm politicking.
What happened to you on this thread? Were you just in a bad mood?
You should click on that link. It's interesting - honestly! :cool:
I usually read your posts, because I regard you as the sort of Tory whose thinking I need to understand when I'm politicking.
What happened to you on this thread? Were you just in a bad mood?
You should click on that link. It's interesting - honestly! :cool:
I have done, it doesn't surprise me at all. The rich list in the USA includes pretty much all the worlds major tech billionaires. It takes an awful lot of redundant car workers to balance that.
My objection is to the usual its evil crap. No it isnt, slavery was evil, children down mines and up chimneys was evil. It is all relative. Anyone waiting for the rich to get poorer will have a long wait. My advice, look for ways to get rich, it obviously isn't that hard.
Or stop buying Iphones, playboxes etc. then you can influence things.
M Swanson
09-Mar-13, 09:44
Just a few interesting facts to throw into the pot. Not popular, I know, but let's give it a go.
In 2009 the top 1% in America paid approximately 33% of all income tax, whilst the top 10% paid over 70% of income tax and the top 25% paid a huge 87.3% of income tax.
That means that the so-called bottom 75% paid 12.7%, so the rich aren't paying their share?
I wonder what would happen, if the rich cashed in their chips and relocated elsewhere? Hmmmmm!
I'm not surprised that thus far, nobody has responded to the 'Extreme World,' clip. It's a real shocker. There's more, but I don't think some of the content is suitable for the Org, but if you'd like to Google 'Extreme World,' Venezuela, you will get an even larger picture of what is actually happening in that country. Your eyes won't deceive you and much of the testimony, is firsthand from Venezuelians (sic) themselves. It's small wonder that Amnesty International are working so hard to improve things. Decide for yourself if Chavez is a shining example to anyone.
It's a Fox production. Fox won the legal right for it's news division to lie. Therefore any Fox production is unreliable as a source of fact.
M Swanson
09-Mar-13, 16:24
On the one hand, you have Flynn complaining about the source, as is usual and then you have: belief in what you see with your own eyes, the words of the prison governor and a Dutch prisoner, 560 prisoners murdered and nobody charged with even one of them, the vision of people lying on the floor who are desperate and look like they're waiting to die to escape their hell, the concerns of Amnesty International and too many Human Rights violations to number. How does this barbarism stack up with the denier, who is more content in advancing their ideology than the truth of what is happening in Venezuela? You decide.
M Swanson
09-Mar-13, 16:36
Just a few interesting facts to throw into the pot. Not popular, I know, but let's give it a go.
In 2009 the top 1% in America paid approximately 33% of all income tax, whilst the top 10% paid over 70% of income tax and the top 25% paid a huge 87.3% of income tax.
That means that the so-called bottom 75% paid 12.7%, so the rich aren't paying their share?
I wonder what would happen, if the rich cashed in their chips and relocated elsewhere? Hmmmmm!
Actually, this triggered a long conversation this morning, in which we discussed this video and all agreed that posting it was a bit of a God-send, mainly because of the question I posed at the end of the message. All kinds of remedies were suggested, but the one thing that became obvious, was that, although there maybe measures to be taken to address the inequality, socialism isn't one of them. Actually, this is stated in the clip.
Hypothetically, if, as a result of crippling, raised taxation, the top 25% decided to take their business acumen, skills and millions of jobs they have the ability to create elsewhere, what would happen to the remaining 75%? Socialism would, no doubt, rely on putting millions on the State payroll and we can see why that system has never, nor could ever doing anything but fail. Is there anyone who is interested enough to do the maths? I'm working on it. :cool:
Hypothetically, if, as a result of crippling, raised taxation, the top 25% decided to take their business acumen, skills and millions of jobs they have the ability to create elsewhere, what would happen to the remaining 75%? Socialism would, no doubt, rely on putting millions on the State payroll and we can see why that system has never, nor could ever doing anything but fail. Is there anyone who is interested enough to do the maths? I'm working on it. :cool:
Things are not quite that Black & White.... A lot of the wealth of a nation is derived from the resources of that nation, you can't take the resources with you, be it mineral wealth, agricultural wealth or even a cheap labour market etc. If those 25% decided to leave I'm sure there would be plenty in the remaining 75% more than capable of filling their shoes but just not given the chance.
Those 25% got there through opportunity, if they left that would open up opportunity for others.
secrets in symmetry
09-Mar-13, 17:15
I have done, it doesn't surprise me at all. The rich list in the USA includes pretty much all the worlds major tech billionaires. It takes an awful lot of redundant car workers to balance that.
My objection is to the usual its evil crap. No it isnt, slavery was evil, children down mines and up chimneys was evil. It is all relative. Anyone waiting for the rich to get poorer will have a long wait. My advice, look for ways to get rich, it obviously isn't that hard.
Or stop buying Iphones, playboxes etc. then you can influence things.That's more like the simple Tory philosophy I expect from you lol.
I'm almost relieved. :cool:
M Swanson
09-Mar-13, 20:22
Things are not quite that Black & White.... A lot of the wealth of a nation is derived from the resources of that nation, you can't take the resources with you, be it mineral wealth, agricultural wealth or even a cheap labour market etc. If those 25% decided to leave I'm sure there would be plenty in the remaining 75% more than capable of filling their shoes but just not given the chance.
Those 25% got there through opportunity, if they left that would open up opportunity for others.
I see where you're coming from Al, but when the 25% leave we're left with 100%. So, you then have a new 25% of high earners, who won't be satisfied unless they can achieve the same level of affluence and power as the out-goers. The trickle down effect rolls on and I wouldn't be surprised if the old inequalities hardly change at all. Human nature has to be factored in. If this is an argument against capitalism, then it must be remembered that the other socialist alternative would be unworkable and doomed never to succeed, as history proves. Apart from a few elite, everyone ends up in misery. We'd have 90% with nowt. Well, that's my take anyway. Where's Macadamia when you need him? :D
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