View Full Version : empty seats
percy toboggan
05-Jan-07, 20:42
I was reading a two month old copy of 'Commercial Motor' today. In November last 'road transport policy' was debated in the Scottish Parliament.
Topics as important as a replacement Forth Road Bridge and accidents involving foreign lorries/drivers were discussed. There were 21 MSP's present. Two fewer than the 23 movers and shakers in the transport field who had come to lobby.
I dunno if this happened on a friday afternoon but such apathy is reminiscent of scenes in Westminster, when those leather benches are often sparsely populated and some of those who are there look to be nodding off.
Just why do we pay these people?
If you think this is an unimportant subject just remember next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past you in the pouring rain or when the time comes to queue up for the Kincardine Bridge.
percy toboggan
05-Jan-07, 22:36
the board's as interested in this as the MSP's are in roads.:roll: :lol:
Not sure if this counts but here goes... I used to live on the edge of Loch Ness and still have family there and believe me a lot of accidents happened because of foreign drivers either trying to drive and watch at the same time or simply going back to the opposite side of the road driving.
Gogglebox
05-Jan-07, 22:55
I was reading a two month old copy of 'Commercial Motor' today. In November last 'road transport policy' was debated in the Scottish Parliament.
Topics as important as a replacement Forth Road Bridge and accidents involving foreign lorries/drivers were discussed. There were 21 MSP's present. Two fewer than the 23 movers and shakers in the transport field who had come to lobby.
I dunno if this happened on a friday afternoon but such apathy is reminiscent of scenes in Westminster, when those leather benches are often sparsely populated and some of those who are there look to be nodding off.
Just why do we pay these people?
If you think this is an unimportant subject just remember next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past you in the pouring rain or when the time comes to queue up for the Kincardine Bridge.
Firstly Percy, Stop hanging around dentist waiting rooms and reading their out of date mags! lol
However you raise a very good point, that a bill which could affect all of Scotland could be done on the basis of a vote of 21 people so 11 in favour one way or another are making legislation which affects 5 million(approx)
There are 129 elected, in one way or another, MSPs take a wage of at a very conservative estimate of 50K (plus oodles of expenses) so that leaves 108 who couldnt be bothered or found something more pressing to do in a country where transport is vital, roads are poor at best, bridges are falling apart and gridlock exists in most major towns and cities, car accidents and road deaths are at an alltime high and environmental issues relating to cars are at the forefront of most other countries thinking.
Good to know our esteemed elected representatives have their priorities sorted
Was Caithness's very own Jamie Stone present??
Kincardine Bridge? Can't say I've ever been held up there. The Forth Road Bridge is virtually brand new, especially if you compare it to the Rail Bridge next to it.
The next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past me in the pouring rain will probably be no more noticeable than the couple of thousand British juggernauts that have done exactly the same thing. One juggernaut is pretty much the same as another when you can't see a thing for the spray they are busily blinding everybody with.
The Dornoch Rail Crossing and an additional Rail Crossing rather than another Forth Road Bridge makes more sense to get more juggernauts off the roads and goods taken by rail.
The Scottish Parliament would have been far better engaged discussing creating a decent Rail Network for moving goods to help reduce traffic congestion.
How many juggernauts would a decent sized goods train replace? Twenty? Fifty? A hundred? Whichever number it is it has to make things better on the roads and reduce the amount of money required for maintenance to road surfaces caused by forty tonne juggernauts, foreign or otherwise, crushing the surfaces and collapsing sewers, water and gas mains etc.
Kincardine Bridge? Can't say I've ever been held up there. The Forth Road Bridge is virtually brand new, especially if you compare it to the Rail Bridge next to it.
The next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past me in the pouring rain will probably be no more noticeable than the couple of thousand British juggernauts that have done exactly the same thing. One juggernaut is pretty much the same as another when you can't see a thing for the spray they are busily blinding everybody with.
The Dornoch Rail Crossing and an additional Rail Crossing rather than another Forth Road Bridge makes more sense to get more juggernauts off the roads and goods taken by rail.
The Scottish Parliament would have been far better engaged discussing creating a decent Rail Network for moving goods to help reduce traffic congestion.
How many juggernauts would a decent sized goods train replace? Twenty? Fifty? A hundred? Whichever number it is it has to make things better on the roads and reduce the amount of money required for maintenance to road surfaces caused by forty tonne juggernauts, foreign or otherwise, crushing the surfaces and collapsing sewers, water and gas mains etc.
I,m an H.G.V driver and i can't argue with any of that jaws except at some point or other its got to go on to a lorry big or small either to get to the train or from the train,can't quite imagine one of those pulling up outside M & S,by the way try getting across kincardine Bridge from 7.30 or evan worse when the Forth Road Bridge is closed to high sided vehicles.
Kincardine Bridge? Can't say I've ever been held up there. The Forth Road Bridge is virtually brand new, especially if you compare it to the Rail Bridge next to it.
The next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past me in the pouring rain will probably be no more noticeable than the couple of thousand British juggernauts that have done exactly the same thing. One juggernaut is pretty much the same as another when you can't see a thing for the spray they are busily blinding everybody with.
The Dornoch Rail Crossing and an additional Rail Crossing rather than another Forth Road Bridge makes more sense to get more juggernauts off the roads and goods taken by rail.
The Scottish Parliament would have been far better engaged discussing creating a decent Rail Network for moving goods to help reduce traffic congestion.
How many juggernauts would a decent sized goods train replace? Twenty? Fifty? A hundred? Whichever number it is it has to make things better on the roads and reduce the amount of money required for maintenance to road surfaces caused by forty tonne juggernauts, foreign or otherwise, crushing the surfaces and collapsing sewers, water and gas mains etc.
so if we put everything on the train and we get another storm like we had a couple of months back where the railway line is down for a week or more, where are they going to get enough trucks at such short notice that are going to manage to keep the shops stocked from milk to televisions.
i have found that the roads have never been blocked for more than a couple of hours in the highlands, this is my experience as a haulier, but yet the railway can and does stay closed for days if not weeks.
I've always been fascinated by the lack of MPs/MSPs actually attending debates, even when they know it's going to be televised they don't bother to turn up. So one sees a member making often a long speech to an audience of one or two and a speaker/presiding member who must be bored out of their minds. Obviously they have to spend time in their constituencies but it is all very odd, especially when it's an important topic. Maybe they should move these debates into a small committee room where they could have a sensible, minuted discussion and resist the temptation to hold forth for hours.
percy toboggan
07-Jan-07, 00:12
The Dornoch Rail Crossing and an additional Rail Crossing rather than another Forth Road Bridge makes more sense to get more juggernauts off the roads and goods taken by rail.
The Scottish Parliament would have been far better engaged discussing creating a decent Rail Network for moving goods to help reduce traffic congestion.
How many juggernauts would a decent sized goods train replace?
You are living in clioud cuckoo land. A 50% increase in rail freight would only decrease road freight by about five per cent. The railhead infrastructure would cost billions to develop. There is no way rail can be an efficient expeditor of transport logistics to todays retail based economy. There is a case for movement of bulk aggregate loads by rail. Load sof less than fifty tonnes for various delivery points forget it. Road is quicker and more efficent.
Incidentally the Forth Road bridge is corroding at such a rate that it might well have to be closed to heavy traffic within a decade. It's common knowledge that a replacement will be needed before very much longer.
Not quite correct. There is pressure being exerted for a second Forth Road Bridge and has been for some considerable time. The "corrosion argument" is being used to exert pressure for the bridge. The argument being used is that the new bridge will have to be started now, because IF the corrosion problem is such that there is a necessity for the bridge to be closed it would be ten years before that became obvious.
The "Build a Second Bridge Now" pressure group say that waiting ten years for a conclusion to be drawn will leave to little time for a Second Bridge to be built.
In effect, it will be a decade before it will be known if the Bridge will have to be closed. That decision will not mean that the bridge will, even then, have to be closed immediately but only after a period of time after that. The discussion last year was between those who want to start a second bridge now so, hopefully, they will end up with two bridges if the "corrosion problems" are solved and the "Lets wait until it is clear that a second bridge is necessary". It was well discussed round about October last year. Trying to give the impression that “nobody was interested” is not quite accurate.
It seems strange to me that the Forth Road Bridge should be the only such bridge in Britain to have such serious problems, especially as there has been a cry for a second bridge long before the "corrosion problem" arose. Building Suspension Bridges across salt water estuaries is hardly the latest untested technology.
Why only a 50% increase in rail freight? How is that figure arrived at, wishful thinking from the Road Haulage Association? That figure just goes to show how underused the rail network is and how overused road haulage is.
sorry jaws,
i cannot agree with you on this one. how can you possibly get a railway carriage from the railhead to the shops. freight by road has to be the cheapest and most conveniant way. as for the damage to roads, yes hgv,s do damage but if all the revinue from road tax was used to build & repair ,
[most hgv,s road tax is in the region of thousands of pounds each] we would have the best motorway structure in the world. uk hgv drivers are among the best in the world. their driving test is just about the hardest & the vehicle testing is pretty hard also. not taking into account the tax revinue from their fuel, most large trucks run at about 6 or 7 miles to the gallon, so if you work this out on a two or three thousand mile journey just think on what the government are raking in to waste on scottish parliment buildings, msp,s
etc. every thing except on the roads.
[disgust]
I agree with the original point, which was that our M(S)P's are paid by us to work for us. I subscribe to http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and get regular emails telling me what our own moustachio-ed MP is up to in Parliament. Well, semi-regular, at least ;). Every time Mr. Thurso speaks in the House of Commons, I get an email telling me what he has said.
I also contacted him directly about a personal matter, and got a very prompt and thorough response. I don't imagine that he did all the research personally, but the job got done.
Anyway, the point is that if you subscribe to the website above, you can see just what any MP is getting up to... of course, this only gives you an idea of their activity in the debating chamber, not what work (if any) they are getting up to outside it. I must admit, though, I was impressed with how quickly Mr. Thurso got an answer to me. If all MP's are responding to their constituents that quickly and thoroughly, then perhaps they can be forgiven their erratic appearances in the debating chambers.
Johno, for local deliveries I agree, but there are an awful lot of road-miles between Georgemas Junction for something being delivered from, for example, the South of England or the Continent.
Weedom, at least you have the sense to realise, which obviously some don't, that lack of physical presence is not a sign of lack of work, effort or interest amongs MPs or MSPs.
Perhaps a study of how the system works might prove enlightening for some. For those with 'Sky' spending some time watching Chan 504, I'm not sure if it's on Freeview, might prove enlightening.
To decide if the numbers present indicated a lack of interest or otherwise cannot be judged without knowing the background of the particular debate.
Was it a matter where there was general consensus?
Was it one where most already had fixed points of view?
Was it raised by an MSP simply acting as a Mouthpiece for some Pressure Group or other with an Axe to Grind.
Was it a matter where the result was already a forgone conclusion?
How many important Committees were sitting that day?
There are many reasons why a headcount shows absolutely nothing.
I assume the Scottish Parliament operates a ‘Pairing System’ much the same as Westminster to allow MSPs time to deal with other important political matters when their physical presence is not required in the Chamber.
You might think that by sitting at your desk longest in an office might seem to be impressive but it does not show who works hardest, especially if all you are doing is making out your shopping list to save doing it at home!
If you think this is an unimportant subject just remember next time a foreign juggernaut thunders past you in the pouring rain or when the time comes to queue up for the Kincardine Bridge.
where you been man?? we queue for the Kincardine Bridge already and have for years!!
percy toboggan
08-Jan-07, 19:03
where you been man?? we queue for the Kincardine Bridge already and have for years!!
Dozer: the last time I went over the bridge I had me brekky at the 'Silver Link Roadhouse' I hear that has gone now - which is a tragedy in my opinion. Good caff's are getting hard to find. Back then there were few queues though.
Percy, I have to agree with you about the Caffs. There was no 'Hit and Miss' with them and you didn't have to ask around for which were the good ones. All you had to do was to look for the one's with lots of Long Distance Lorries on the lorry park because if it wasn't good they would have gone elsewhere!
Dozer: the last time I went over the bridge I had me brekky at the 'Silver Link Roadhouse' I hear that has gone now - which is a tragedy in my opinion. Good caff's are getting hard to find. Back then there were few queues though.
The Silver Link is still there, just not a caff any more, neither I believe is, "the Pine 'N Oak." It's being demolished for the new roads leading to the new bridge. Queueueueueues for the bridge in all directions at peak times have been hellish for years. Worse when Forth Br is shut to high siders also.
percy toboggan
09-Jan-07, 20:36
The Silver Link is still there, just not a caff any more, neither I believe is, "the Pine 'N Oak." It's being demolished for the new roads leading to the new bridge. Queueueueueues for the bridge in all directions at peak times have been hellish for years. Worse when Forth Br is shut to high siders also.
I keep seeing a 'corgi' model of the 'Silver Link' & a Leyland Octopus (like my avatar) of Andrew Wisharts' in their 'cafe connection' series on ebay. They go for fifty quiddish but I'm tempted, just for auld times sake.
"Percy" whats your opinion on these oversized HGV´s they are planning now in Europe The stretched 60 tonner`s . I think anything that needs that much can go by rail to redistribution centers. because I now see that (although they say they don`t) a large number of these Juggernauts avoid the Motorway toll in Germany by driving on secondary roads which is now leading to more damage than necessary. where will it end?
percy toboggan
09-Jan-07, 22:34
"Percy" whats your opinion on these oversized HGV´s they are planning now in Europe The stretched 60 tonner`s . I think anything that needs that much can go by rail to redistribution centers. because I now see that (although they say they don`t) a large number of these Juggernauts avoid the Motorway toll in Germany by driving on secondary roads which is now leading to more damage than necessary. where will it end?
I think trucks have got as big as they can get in the UK now. It's all down to axles though and across six of them the weights could be upped a little more ONLY to lorries on particular runs between distribution depots which are close to motorway junctions. Maybe a fifty tonne limit. The more axles the less damage to roads. A truck grossing 44tonnes does less damge to the road than one with two axles weighing in at eighteen tonnes.Any increase in weight should be linked to a similar increase in wages for the blokes who drive them.
As I reckon - in my opinion - the physical size limit has already been reached. In places like Nevada, and Australia where roads are straight , and long then vehicles over eighty feet in length are viable, but not here.
I think it was jaws who was arguing for an increase in rail freight and maybe that's not a bad idea, but it cannot be seen as a large scale alternative in my opinion. The potential for chaos is undeniable. Missed deliveries, leaves on lines, wrong kind of snow - huge queues of smaller vehicles at Railheads etc. etc. Todays deadline delivery guys would go up the wall !
Thanks for commenting. I can only comment on what I see here on thew continent and it s a bit like one truck after another on the motorways in a car you don't need to travel on the right( yes the right) because its full up with trucks so you can only do the maximum speed of the the person in front of you. in the evenings and on Sundays its what one could say normal. what is disturbing is that the EU will probably put on a Motorway tax on Car users in the long term although we paid with highertaxes on car tax and/or fuel but we are not going to get anwhere quicker. and with theser bigger truck coming try to overtake on a normal road Forget it. so I might as well get a horse and ride cross country sorry didn't mean to rant..... any suggestion on what is possibe to reduce traffic and /or energy consumption..?
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